PDA

View Full Version : 2216ND Differential Drive



ronaltronics
03-19-2014, 07:29 PM
I find this driver very interesting with all the thought JBL put into building this driver. I think it has 7 new patents and even the voice coil wire is all new.

What are all the patents?

stephane RAME
03-20-2014, 09:40 AM
2216ND Differential Drive®Woofer

5664023
5748760
6768804
6847726
6774510

Stéphane

stephane RAME
03-20-2014, 09:50 AM
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33565-2216Nd

Stéphane

ronaltronics
03-22-2014, 08:36 AM
Thanks for that,

For fun the other day I did a side by side of the S-4700 and Array 1400's.

Played a ton of my own music I have collected over forty years. I think everyone in this forum raves about the 1400's, and rightfully so because I fell in love with the sound from day one. Now the S-4700 have come out and I must say I love the sound they reproduce also.

What is amazing to me is you would think they would sound very similar but in my opinion they sound entirely different. I did find they bass extension on both extremely good but The S-4700's just delivered the same low frequency much more accurately and far faster tighter, if that is the right description.

So to anyone trying to analyze these two products I would say spend at least 1 hour going back and fourth to determine what your ears prefer.

For me I would get a pair of each.

1audiohack
03-22-2014, 11:57 AM
What is amazing to me is you would think they would sound very similar but in my opinion they sound entirely different. I did find they bass extension on both extremely good but The S-4700's just delivered the same low frequency much more accurately and far faster tighter, if that is the right description.

Thats exactly the way I hear it. That 2216Nd is a sweetheart for sure. In my experience with all these only the 1500 /1501Al series drivers can best them.

Barry.

hlaari
03-22-2014, 04:58 PM
Thats exactly the way I hear it. That 2216Nd is a sweetheart for sure. In my experience with all these only the 1500 /1501Al series drivers can best them.

Barry.

And also 1501Fe

Robh3606
03-23-2014, 07:44 AM
Here's what they look like in the flesh

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
03-23-2014, 09:13 AM
For fun the other day I did a side by side of the S-4700 and Array 1400's.

Played a ton of my own music I have collected over forty years. I think everyone in this forum raves about the 1400's, and rightfully so because I fell in love with the sound from day one. Now the S-4700 have come out and I must say I love the sound they reproduce also.

I did find they bass extension on both extremely good but The S-4700's just delivered the same low frequency much more accurately and far faster tighter, if that is the right description.
For me the magic of the 1400 Array is entirely in the horn... it's overall smoothness but most especially the imaging. The bass of the 1400 is fine, quite pleasant in fact, but it certainly isn't the ultimate in detail and resolution.


Widget

martin_wu99
03-23-2014, 09:55 AM
Thanks for that,

For fun the other day I did a side by side of the S-4700 and Array 1400's.

Played a ton of my own music I have collected over forty years. I think everyone in this forum raves about the 1400's, and rightfully so because I fell in love with the sound from day one. Now the S-4700 have come out and I must say I love the sound they reproduce also.

What is amazing to me is you would think they would sound very similar but in my opinion they sound entirely different. I did find they bass extension on both extremely good but The S-4700's just delivered the same low frequency much more accurately and far faster tighter, if that is the right description.

So to anyone trying to analyze these two products I would say spend at least 1 hour going back and fourth to determine what your ears prefer.


For me I would get a pair of each.
According to 4313B,1400 can give you real old school bass,4700 and 4365 even 9900 can not offer this:blink:

ronaltronics
03-23-2014, 11:13 AM
Thanks for the driver Pictures What a masterpiece at that price range. I hope they offer more models with that driver in the future because right now it is just the M2 and S-4700.

I would like a model between the S-4700 and K2-9900 with this woofer and a compression driver midrange and UHF that is a little more heavy duty than what is in the S-4700.

Hope Greg reads this.

martin_wu99
03-24-2014, 09:43 AM
Thanks for the driver Pictures What a masterpiece at that price range. I hope they offer more models with that driver in the future because right now it is just the M2 and S-4700.

I would like a model between the S-4700 and K2-9900 with this woofer and a compression driver midrange and UHF that is a little more heavy duty than what is in the S-4700.

Hope Greg reads this.
Doesn't 4365 do this job very well?

Valentin
03-24-2014, 05:33 PM
Well the M2 is the one in the midile of the K2 9900 and the S4700

the M2 has a better compresion driver than the S4700 and a great horn plus its active

below the s4700 you have the array 1400 whichi s a very good speaker

so i see it dificult to go down or up having the 1500al family

now imagine a Everest DD68000 K2 10000 active with the 1500al family and a new horn with a nice berilum compresion driver

ronaltronics
03-24-2014, 07:59 PM
Sorry I should be more specific. What I was meaning is a consumer Model loudspeaker.

The M-2 is a professional loudspeaker that I do not think most audiophiles will put in there living room plus they have no passive crossover within the loudspeaker.

The 4365 studio monitor series is not sold in Canada and I do not think it is available for the U.S. Either.

So for me back to wishing for a consumer model product in between.

martin_wu99
03-25-2014, 02:12 AM
Well the M2 is the one in the midile of the K2 9900 and the S4700

the M2 has a better compresion driver than the S4700 and a great horn plus its active

below the s4700 you have the array 1400 whichi s a very good speaker

so i see it dificult to go down or up having the 1500al family

now imagine a Everest DD68000 K2 10000 active with the 1500al family and a new horn with a nice berilum compresion driver
DD68000 and K2 10000?:eek:that's a great dream,i like them:D

martin_wu99
03-25-2014, 02:26 AM
Sorry I should be more specific. What I was meaning is a consumer Model loudspeaker.

The M-2 is a professional loudspeaker that I do not think most audiophiles will put in there living room plus they have no passive crossover within the loudspeaker.

The 4365 studio monitor series is not sold in Canada and I do not think it is available for the U.S. Either.

So for me back to wishing for a consumer model product in between.
Then M2 home edition (within crossover in it) must be your wish:D

shoshaw
03-25-2014, 02:49 AM
Sorry I should be more specific. What I was meaning is a consumer Model loudspeaker.

The M-2 is a professional loudspeaker that I do not think most audiophiles will put in there living room plus they have no passive crossover within the loudspeaker.

The 4365 studio monitor series is not sold in Canada and I do not think it is available for the U.S. Either.

So for me back to wishing for a consumer model product in between.

I am an audiophile and I have a set of M2s in my listening room. They are better than the K2 (IMO) in every way except visually. Everyone I know who has encountered a properly setup M2 system is amazed by their realism. Don't count them out simply because they carry the "Pro" badge!

ronaltronics
03-25-2014, 12:04 PM
Did you purchase them with the electronics that go with them?

Or are you running electronic crossover's from some manufacturer, Or some type of passive crossover?

if you purchased them for your listening room with all the electronics and software,amplifiers etc what price range does that take you roughly.

Valentin
03-25-2014, 12:19 PM
20 grand with crown itech 5000hd per pair

ronaltronics
04-01-2014, 06:16 PM
I guess you have to purchase it as an entire kit or it just will not work properly. For 20,000.00 U.S. dollars sounds like it would be a fine set up.

I have run the S-4700's with the Bryston 28 sst2 Mono blocks and the Krell Evolution 600e mono blocks and boy they just sound FANTASTIC.

When I get the new Arcam Products in I will take them for another spin.

baldrick
04-02-2014, 02:54 PM
Does anyone have a source for 2216ND? I've tried locally but neither pro or consumer can get them for me...

macaroonie
04-02-2014, 03:22 PM
In the fullness of time I would expect to see the M2 technology filter over to consumer products.

audiomagnate
04-03-2014, 01:07 PM
In the fullness of time I would expect to see the M2 technology filter over to consumer products.

The "image enhancer" technology, or whatever they call call the new waveguide has already trickled down into their very affordable small monitors. I'm sure a more living room friendly model that uses the D2 driver is in the works.

Valentin
04-03-2014, 06:42 PM
A 2" mini D2 driver has been developed and i can bet you will see it in the new "M3" monitor

you can see it in this Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu61g_hreg

at minute 5.33

pos
04-04-2014, 02:08 AM
That would be the D2415K: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35490-D2415k

In the video around 7:00 there is a transducer engineer (Ralph Hyde) demonstrating differential and braking coils with a LSR28 woofer, and exposing the gains of these technologies in term of distortion reduction. Having recently tested a pair of 252G (12" woofers from the LSR32) using the same technologies, I must say I was not impressed: distortion figures were much higher than a pair of good ol' 128H-1, especially down low...

ivica
04-04-2014, 07:30 AM
A 2" mini D2 driver has been developed and i can bet you will see it in the new "M3" monitor

you can see it in this Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu61g_hreg

at minute 5.33

Hi,
As I can understand at 5.33 is some kind of 1" driver is shown

regards
Ivica

martin_wu99
04-07-2014, 07:49 AM
A 2" mini D2 driver has been developed and i can bet you will see it in the new "M3" monitor

you can see it in this Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu61g_hreg

at minute 5.33
It is amazing,waiting for cheap M3:applaud:

Valentin
04-07-2014, 10:26 AM
Hi,
As I can understand at 5.33 is some kind of 1" driver is shown

regards
Ivica


it clearly says 2" voicecoil

ivica
04-08-2014, 02:18 AM
it clearly says 2" voicecoil

I have thought about the horn throat size, not the VC size.
as D2430K is 3-inch VC , but 1.5inch mouth size.

regards
ivica

Valentin
04-09-2014, 02:27 PM
ok :) talking the same thing with difrent prespective

hjames
10-03-2022, 05:05 AM
After all the reviews here and on AK, I just ordered a pair of 2216nd woofers from Speaker Exchange in FLA.
Guess I'll find out for myself if they are all that, compared to the 2234s I had in my last pair of L200s.
We'll see how they pair up with some 2445js and a pair of JohnW's walnut Smith horns!

91143

rusty jefferson
10-03-2022, 06:37 AM
After all the reviews here and on AK, I just ordered a pair from Speaker Exchange in FLA.
Guess I'll find out for myself if they are all that, compared to the 2234s I had in my last pair of L200s.
We'll see how they pair up with some 2445js and a pair of JohnW smith horns!
Oh, nice! New project at Heather's. Looking forward to that!

hjames
10-03-2022, 02:06 PM
Oh, nice! New project at Heather's. Looking forward to that!
Just bolted the 2328 adapters to the 2445j 2" pro drivers I got last week to test them out.
Sounded fine even without the JohnW smith horns I found for them!
Gotta do something to keep me off the street when winter comes! ;)

9114191142

macaroonie
10-03-2022, 04:28 PM
Heavyest tweeters ever made :eek:

hjames
10-03-2022, 06:30 PM
Heavyest tweeters ever made :eek:
Yes - they are MONSTERS!!!

Robh3606
10-03-2022, 07:16 PM
Yes - they are MONSTERS!!!

Hello Heather

Wait until you get a 2216Nd in hand. The complete opposite! They are a pleasure weight wise after dealing with 2235's and E-145's.

Rob :)

Mr. Widget
10-03-2022, 07:33 PM
Wait until you get a 2216Nd in hand. The complete opposite! They are a pleasure weight wise after dealing with 2235's and E-145's.
Try the 1500AL family of woofers... heavy and the mass is really far from the mounting plane. They are a real drag to mess around with. I picked up one of the other 15" Nd woofers... shockingly light and wonderfully manageable!

Heather, did they give you an expected ETA?


Widget

hjames
10-04-2022, 06:46 AM
Try the 1500AL family of woofers... heavy and the mass is really far from the mounting plane. They are a real drag to mess around with. I picked up one of the other 15" Nd woofers... shockingly light and wonderfully manageable!

Heather, did they give you an expected ETA?

Widget

Not yet -
I was frankly surprised when Melissa replied back to me on Sunday afternoon that the woofers were back in stock,
so I ordered right away ... figured I'd hear more during the work week. Others have said theirs shipped directly from JBL.

I'm still looking for cabinets - tho a pair of L200s would suit me fine (or 4333s, I'll cap the factory horn hole on the baffle board).
I'm considering an external box for the crossover - with the mid and tweeter pots mounted in that.

hjames
10-16-2022, 06:53 AM
The woofers arrived Monday Oct 10th - the JohnW Walnut smith horns arrived Friday!

91197 91198




Not yet -
I was frankly surprised when Melissa replied back to me on Sunday afternoon that the woofers were back in stock,
so I ordered right away ... figured I'd hear more during the work week. Others have said theirs shipped directly from JBL.

I'm still looking for cabinets - tho a pair of L200s would suit me fine (or 4333s, I'll cap the factory horn hole on the baffle board).
I'm considering an external box for the crossover - with the mid and tweeter pots mounted in that.

Robh3606
10-16-2022, 08:29 AM
Hello Heather

Glad you got them. Should make a nice system! Do you have SL diaphragms in your 2445's?? As far as the 2216's being all that? I think you will be happy with them :) I know I was once I got my first listen.

Rob :)

hjames
10-16-2022, 11:40 AM
Hello Heather

Glad you got them. Should make a nice system! Do you have SL diaphragms in your 2445's?? As far as the 2216's being all that? I think you will be happy with them :) I know I was once I got my first listen.

Rob :)
I got a pair of JBL D8R2452-SL diaphragms from Speaker Exchange - I just haven't install them yet.
Really, just collecting all the parts for a winter project.
A good pair of cabinets are all I lack now - I'd like L200 cabinets, if I can find a clean pair.
I'm hesitant to gut the Heathkit Valencias and build in them ...
if for no other reason than I hate that dark faux-moroccan finish.
I'd want to strip and refinish them in a lighter stain if I went that route.

engineerjoe
10-16-2022, 05:30 PM
So I need to ask this without sounding bad. Would you be better off installing the diaphragms into a pair of 2446s? Would you be able to hear the upgraded phase plugs and such?
I have both model drivers and they sound close to me in a concert type surrounding. The diaphragm makes a big difference. I just never compared them up close and personal.
Back to your regular programming. Sorry for any interruption.:crying:

hjames
10-16-2022, 07:55 PM
So I need to ask this without sounding bad. Would you be better off installing the diaphragms into a pair of 2446s?
Would you be able to hear the upgraded phase plugs and such? I have both model drivers and they sound close to me in a concert type surrounding.
The diaphragm makes a big difference. I just never compared them up close and personal.
Back to your regular programming. Sorry for any interruption.:crying:

Well, I have the pair of new JBL D8R2452-SL Diaphragm, ready to install this week.
I have the 2445j drivers here. I don't have a pair of 2446 drivers.
I'll use them in a home audio environment, not at concert levels.
Is there that much difference between them?

Mr. Widget
10-16-2022, 08:28 PM
Is there that much difference between them?Comparing the JBL spec sheets for the two drivers JBL says that the 2446's coherent phase plug allows "coherent summation of acoustical power up to much higher frequencies than afforded by earlier designs." Interestingly comparing the provided frequency plots of the 2445 and the 2446 on the same horn have a very similar response.

Hard to say.


Widget

engineerjoe
10-19-2022, 06:17 PM
Yes, I too would go with the 2445s because you have them!
I just wondered if anyone here has heard a difference. I hoped some would chime in with opinions.
I have both models but never used them side by side, up close, for testing in my house. I have compared the 2445, 2446, 2450, 2453, etc., in venues, and they seemed similar with just some mild EQ changes using an Ashley GQX3102. I mainly take out (lower) some harsh or resonant frequencies.
I am not knocking the 2445s in any way. I think they are fantastic. The main difference I believe with the later 2446 models was an advanced phase plug design.
Our host pointed that out.
I actually could not hear the difference between the driver models when my PA was in use. The diaphragms used, seemed to make the difference in my drivers which were all bought used.

hjames
10-19-2022, 07:39 PM
Well, I installed the new JBL coated diaphrams in the 2445js yesterday. One at a time, and in comparison, it was easy to hear which one had the original phragm.

What does the 2445 phase plug look like?
91201

The original diaphragms were dated 1988 - 34 years old,
and had the dull grey look of uncoated titanium.
91202

The new diaphragm with the dull pebbled coating.
91205

The old foam in the cap was disintegrating/rotten - I removed it all
and wiped the cap clean with MEK (Outdoors!) afterwards
91204

I used a test tone app on my iPhone through a LePai amp to center the diaphragm.
91203

Played some music today and its a geat improvement!


Yes, I too would go with the 2445s because you have them!
I just wondered if anyone here has heard a difference. I hoped some would chime in with opinions.
I have both models but never used them side by side, up close, for testing in my house. I have compared the 2445, 2446, 2450, 2453, etc., in venues, and they seemed similar with just some mild EQ changes using an Ashley GQX3102. I mainly take out (lower) some harsh or resonant frequencies.
I am not knocking the 2445s in any way. I think they are fantastic. The main difference I believe with the later 2446 models was an advanced phase plug design.
Our host pointed that out.
I actually could not hear the difference between the driver models when my PA was in use. The diaphragms used, seemed to make the difference in my drivers which were all bought used.

grumpy
10-20-2022, 07:17 PM
IIRC, it's more the cross section that would be interesting to see (vs the slots in the surface), bends that attempt to better equalize the path delays for a "coherent" summation at the phase plug exit... where the circles you see are like small concentric horn exits that have the 'slots' as their throat. Kind of.

-sort- of like equalizing exhaust header pipe length with the proper bends. I expect someone will beat me up about that ... lol.

Robh3606
10-21-2022, 01:57 PM
What does the 2445 phase plug look like?

The 2445 has a phase plug very similar to the 2440/41 and the 2446 has the Coherent Wave Phase Plug. You can easily see the differences. The CW has curved paths.

Rob :)

engineerjoe
11-14-2022, 08:08 PM
stumbled back across this post again. Great info here again. Thank you.If I stayed into doing sound, I would have updated all the old diaphragms. My 2" JBL drivers have sat on the shelf now for 2 years or so. I was intrigued that one driver, seemed to have so much better top end response than all the others, as I posted in the past.I went with (8) used 2453 drivers in my recent FOH build and was happy with them overall. My cabinets are light and easy to move. The sound is crisp and smooth. I swore I'd never leave the 2" throat behind. It's great to keep an open mind to new(er) things. I still look back and compare. Again I'll post, I'm intrigued by what people use in their house.

hjames
11-14-2022, 08:35 PM
I have currently loaded the 2216Nd drivers in the rare Heathkit AS-1348 speakers I got last week. They should have had some rare Philips 15 drivers,
in an odd rear-facing slot loaded form, but I found that a previous owner subbed in some Dayton 15s when, I suppose, the surrounds went bad on the Philips
woofers and someone either didn't know how to fix that, or couldn't find the surrounds to do so. Anyway, swapped the 2216Nd drivers in Saturday,
and they are just now starting to break in, at least I presume that's why I am hearing lower bass from them today than before.

hjames
11-18-2022, 02:23 PM
Cleaned up some of the nicks and chips on these 40+ year old Heathkit speakers. Installed casters under one of them but I thought it got too tippy, so I pulled them off again.
Installed some black grill cloth from Huntley Audio - looks Hugely better than they did with the brown cloth.
The array of tweeters over the dual mids actually sound pretty good, (Philips drivers). Got a box of Solen caps today from Parts Express,
but I suspect I'll wait until after after Thanksgiving to open them up and do that update.
Meanwhile, I'm just enjoying the heck out of them with the JBL 2216Nd in the rear facing slot loaded area.

Mr. Widget
11-18-2022, 03:39 PM
Looking good… agreed on the black grilles.

As far as I know this is a fairly unique design. Do you know the story behind the design?

Those Phillips drivers were fairly ubiquitous during the mid 70s. B&O and many others used these drivers, but this configuration is not something I have seen before.


Widget