whats the pro&cons using a tube preamp with a SS amp

[dino]

Ok this is a path I never been down before so all of Yall advice thanks. Well let me say this first I'm using a SS power amp which for an SS amp it sound good but I do know how warm and awesome tube sound but SS beats tube at the low end. So I am hoping I can get some of the warm detail sound out of my mids and tweets. I don't want to spend a arm one eyeball and kidney on a tube preamp please. What I am looking at is dynaco pas-3 with mods. Any suggestion thanks

[rusty jefferson]

Any chance you can audition the Pas 3 in your system before purchase?

I believe the Dyna Pas 3 is a "hybrid" tube preamp. I've never had one in my system, but I have owned/auditioned several other hybrids (and currently use one), and would tend to describe them as "neutral/natural" sounding. That would be opposed to a tube preamp like the Primaluna (http://www.primaluna-usa.com/product-main/prologue/prologue-three) which I feel may have more of what gets described as the "classic" tube sound. Warm midrange, softer high frequencies, bloom, etc. If your current amplifier isn't really close to being smooth enough on the top end, I'd be surprised if the Pas 3 would deliver what you're after, unless your current ss(?) pre is really adding a lot of hardness. I believe there is a line of thinking that an "all tube" preamp combined with the ss amp might give you more of what you are looking for. Perhaps others will comment.

The largest cons I have with tube gear is the reliability of vintage, and being comfortable (or not) with being out of the room or house while it's on, and the cost of re-tubing.

[grumpy]

I believe the Dyna Pas 3 is a "hybrid" tube preamp.

Someone will have to change at least one of their beliefs then :)

I've had several systems with tube front ends (one with was a hybrid), and have also included tube power amps...
If you're trying to add a "tube sound" to your system, the PAS 3 will do that. Not a guarantee of ultimate success,
but you should be able to tell a difference swapping it in. Further up the food chain, the potential for euphonic
distortions becomes less (the direction I went), or more. I ended up losing the clean/tube pre in my current system
and going higher-end SS... which just happened to fit with what I like (currently :) )

Have fun!

[hjames]

I'm currently using an integrated tube amp on my newly recapped KEF 105.4 speakers (Getz-Gilberto SACD playing now).


In an earlier configuration I tried a Grant Fidelity Tube Buffer with my SS gear.
They are inexpensive - I bought and sold mine (used model) for $90 ...
It worked fine and may be all you need to use with your existing gear to give it that taste of tubes sound.

[dino]

Any chance you can audition the Pas 3 in your system before purchase?

I believe the Dyna Pas 3 is a "hybrid" tube preamp. I've never had one in my system, but I have owned/auditioned several other hybrids (and currently use one), and would tend to describe them as "neutral/natural" sounding. That would be opposed to a tube preamp like the Primaluna (http://www.primaluna-usa.com/product-main/prologue/prologue-three) which I feel may have more of what gets described as the "classic" tube sound. Warm midrange, softer high frequencies, bloom, etc. If your current amplifier isn't really close to being smooth enough on the top end, I'd be surprised if the Pas 3 would deliver what you're after, unless your current ss(?) pre is really adding a lot of hardness. I believe there is a line of thinking that an "all tube" preamp combined with the ss amp might give you more of what you are looking for. Perhaps others will comment.

The largest cons I have with tube gear is the reliability of vintage, and being comfortable (or not) with being out of the room or house while it's on, and the cost of re-tubing.
Thanks for your input but what I should have mentioned I want bass and treble controls on my tube preamp. But I do want the silky smooth mids and nice sweet highs

[dino]

Someone will have to change at least one of their beliefs then :)

I've had several systems with tube front ends (one with was a hybrid), and have also included tube power amps...
If you're trying to add a "tube sound" to your system, the PAS 3 will do that. Not a guarantee of ultimate success,
but you should be able to tell a difference swapping it in. Further up the food chain, the potential for euphonic
distortions becomes less (the direction I went), or more. I ended up losing the clean/tube pre in my current system
and going higher-end SS... which just happened to fit with what I like (currently :) )

Have fun!
Thanks the preamp I'm using now is a old Yamaha c-85 which is good but it's no tube

[dino]

I'm currently using an integrated tube amp on my newly recapped KEF 105.4 speakers (Getz-Gilberto SACD playing now).


In an earlier configuration I tried a Grant Fidelity Tube Buffer with my SS gear.
They are inexpensive - I bought and sold mine (used model) for $90 ...
It worked fine and may be all you need to use with your existing gear to give it that taste of tubes sound.

Hey Heather. Remember I'm new to this tube thing but I sure do love the sound of tube. So what is a buffer and will I get those silky smooth mids and sweet sounding tweets from a buffer. My ultimate goal is to buy a tube power amp and bi-amp it have the tube feeding my mids and tweets and my ss to my low. But for right now I have to crawl before I can walk

[hjames]

A tube buffer is a processor you can put in the tape/EQ loop, or between the preamp and Power amp. Its got unity gain,
and uses a tube for that single stage to get you those tubes sounds and harmonics.

http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/node/75 - about $220 new or a good bit less when you find a used one.

After I tried that I went to a 20watt/ch integrated amp, then sold it and bought a higher powered one new with my tax refund 2 yrs ago,
then found an even higher powered integrated amp used for a bit less a few months later.

Nice thing is that the Jolida distributor is just a bit over from Columbia, MD - so if you like their gear, you can pick them up locally!

Both Jolida and Grant Fidelity sell Chinese amps, tho I believe the Jolida gear is US designed (Like Emotiva).

[dino]

A tube buffer is a processor you can put in the tape/EQ loop, or between the preamp and Power amp. Its got unity gain,
and uses a tube for that single stage to get you those tubes sounds and harmonics.

http://www.grantfidelity.com/site/node/75 - about $220 new or a good bit less when you find a used one.

After I tried that I went to a 20watt/ch integrated amp, then sold it and bought a higher powered one new with my tax refund 2 yrs ago,
then found an even higher powered integrated amp used for a bit less a few months later.

Nice thing is that the Jolida distributor is just a bit over from Columbia, MD - so if you like their gear, you can pick them up locally!

Both Jolida and Grant Fidelity sell Chinese amps, tho I believe the Jolida gear is US designed (Like Emotiva).
WOW thanks heather

[hjames]

WOW thanks heather

I found mine via Underwood Audio who had one for sale at the time, wrote me the invoice,
and got it set so I could pick it up directly.

http://www.underwoodhifi.com/2012/05/jolida.html

[dino]

I found mine via Underwood Audio who had one for sale at the time, wrote me the invoice,
and got it set so I could pick it up directly.

http://www.underwoodhifi.com/2012/05/jolida.html

I want to do a little more research first. A friend of mine has a dyanco pas-3 he is willing to sell but the real question is will this buffer out perform a tube preamp. Common sense tells me no but hell I never knew of a buffer until you schooled me today

[rusty jefferson]

Someone will have to change at least one of their beliefs then :)

Grumpy,

Thanks for the correction. It's always worth checking the Google Machine before posting. I think I may have read about someone modding these with newer "hybrid" circuits, and made the assumption, never a good idea. :o:

I've never used a tube pre with ss amps, only tube amps. Any issues with the tube preamps higher output impedance matching the ss amps in your past? Bass roll off issues?

Perhaps Dino could tell us the input impedance of his amplifier?

[grumpy]

Good questions to ask and be aware of.

I've not used equipment where such a
mismatch caused anything noticeable,
but my more recent tubed pre was designed
to be interoperable with 10k type amp input
impedances.

Worth checking especially with older gear.

[dino]

Grumpy,

Thanks for the correction. It's always worth checking the Google Machine before posting. I think I may have read about someone modding these with newer "hybrid" circuits, and made the assumption, never a good idea. :o:

I've never used a tube pre with ss amps, only tube amps. Any issues with the tube preamps higher output impedance matching the ss amps in your past? Bass roll off issues?

Perhaps Dino could tell us the input impedance of his amplifier?

Impedance 8 ohms or 1.210v.

[dino]

A friend of mine says he have a very clean dynaco pas-3 for sale all parts are original for 275$

[dino]

A friend of mine says he have a very clean dynaco pas-3 for sale all parts are original for 275$

He also has a buffer for sale which I can demo both and make my decision

[dino]

Grumpy,

Thanks for the correction. It's always worth checking the Google Machine before posting. I think I may have read about someone modding these with newer "hybrid" circuits, and made the assumption, never a good idea. :o:

I've never used a tube pre with ss amps, only tube amps. Any issues with the tube preamps higher output impedance matching the ss amps in your past? Bass roll off issues?

Perhaps Dino could tell us the input impedance of his amplifier?

Well I am in luck not only does he have a dyanco pas-3 he also have a buffer for sale which I CAN demo both units. Not that I want sub sonic bass out of my JBL speakers but I do not know how much bass roll off as rusty mentioned

[speakerdave]

As I recall toward the end of its corporate life in the 70's when Dynaco was making tube and SS gear in tandem and all the rest of the electronic world was going transistor and selling out to Japan and Audio Research was starting up with Dynaco mods and half the PAS's we're said to be going to Australia for Trevor Lees mods Dynaco had made some changes to the PAS 3 to enable it to better play into the lower impedance of solid state power amps and called it the 3x. What the penalty is for not having that I could not say.

Personally I have found a PAS 3 at a garage sale price is a viable curiosity but at eBay prices not so sure. Until recently I would have suggested it a better idea to look for one of the lesser Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research preamps of the 80's. More money, but definitely more preamp for it. Unfortunately the prices on those seem to have moved up more than I would have expected, although it's hard to tell from ebay these days because so many sellers seem to be shooting for the moon. Still, in the long run it would probably be better to raise your budget somewhat and try to make your first tube preamp purchase one that would work for you long term. I should tell you that I have been willing to tolerate a slight loosening in the bass if I need to to get the magical midrange, but I can get away with this partly because of my woofers and woofer amp, which are better than average I think. With a less than satisfactory tube preamp you can pay the woolly bass penalty and still not get the gratifying midrange. I've used the CJ PV2 and PV9, and the AR SP8 first version and found them all satisfactory or better, all markedly better than the stock tube Dynas. At the time the PV2 was going for little more than what people were paying for stock Dynas, and it was clearly better. The PV9 has no negative feedback, so there is a trade off, but the midrange is very refined and open. The SP8 is better balanced and less classically tubey, but the midrange is not quite as nice as the PV9. All have required service, however, so the comment above about maintenance is well placed. Then there's tube shopping and tube rolling. Maybe someday I'll have a preamp that will give me the full spectrum the way I want it.

You mention mods. No comments are really sensible without knowing what they are. I think the first key thing was to get the selenium rectifier out of the power supply, beyond that I have no recollection. There are mods and mods, and it's a question of who designed them and what they actually accomplish, and, unless you understand the circuitry and modifications, whether they are documented.

In general I have found that the effort put into finding reasonably priced and listenable tube equipment has paid off in listening enjoyment. Good luck on your search.

[Mr. Widget]

As I recall...Excellent post and good advice.

I have used a number of tube preamps, in addition to the possible frequency anomalies relating to impedance mismatch, Dave's comment on tube preamps' potential for bass woolliness isn't trivial. Many of the vintage tube preamps I've tried lacked lower frequency resolution and sounded murky... I think some people like this as it may sound fuller especially with high sensitivity systems with limited bass capabilities, but with a more full range system I find it pretty annoying.


Widget

[dino]

As I recall toward the end of its corporate life in the 70's when Dynaco was making tube and SS gear in tandem and all the rest of the electronic world was going transistor and selling out to Japan and Audio Research was starting up with Dynaco mods and half the PAS's we're said to be going to Australia for Trevor Lees mods Dynaco had made some changes to the PAS 3 to enable it to better play into the lower impedance of solid state power amps and called it the 3x. What the penalty is for not having that I could not say.

Personally I have found a PAS 3 at a garage sale price is a viable curiosity but at eBay prices not so sure. Until recently I would have suggested it a better idea to look for one of the lesser Conrad-Johnson or Audio Research preamps of the 80's. More money, but definitely more preamp for it. Unfortunately the prices on those seem to have moved up more than I would have expected, although it's hard to tell from ebay these days because so many sellers seem to be shooting for the moon. Still, in the long run it would probably be better to raise your budget somewhat and try to make your first tube preamp purchase one that would work for you long term. I should tell you that I have been willing to tolerate a slight loosening in the bass if I need to to get the magical midrange, but I can get away with this partly because of my woofers and woofer amp, which are better than average I think. With a less than satisfactory tube preamp you can pay the woolly bass penalty and still not get the gratifying midrange. I've used the CJ PV2 and PV9, and the AR SP8 first version and found them all satisfactory or better, all markedly better than the stock tube Dynas. At the time the PV2 was going for little more than what people were paying for stock Dynas, and it was clearly better. The PV9 has no negative feedback, so there is a trade off, but the midrange is very refined and open. The SP8 is better balanced and less classically tubey, but the midrange is not quite as nice as the PV9. All have required service, however, so the comment above about maintenance is well placed. Then there's tube shopping and tube rolling. Maybe someday I'll have a preamp that will give me the full spectrum the way I want it.

You mention mods. No comments are really sensible without knowing what they are. I think the first key thing was to get the selenium rectifier out of the power supply, beyond that I have no recollection. There are mods and mods, and it's a question of who designed them and what they actually accomplish, and, unless you understand the circuitry and modifications, whether they are documented.

In general I have found that the effort put into finding reasonably priced and listenable tube equipment has paid off in listening enjoyment. Good luck on your search.

Thanks. I might be asking to much to find a tube preamp that have tone controls and does match up well with the input impedance of a SS amp. I really like the sound of my SS amp but nothing in this world sound sweeter in the mid and highs than a tube amp and nothing hits deeper and harder in the lows than a SS amp. I guess I am trying to mix the both to have the best of both worlds:o:

[speakerdave]

. . . . I guess I am trying to mix the both to have the best of both worlds:o:

Nothing wrong with that. It's just that a minimalist tube preamp from deep in the tube era probably won't deliver that. Most modern tube preamps have good bass and are designed to work well with solid state equipment.

[dino]

Nothing wrong with that. It's just that a minimalist tube preamp from deep in the tube era probably won't deliver that. Most modern tube preamps have good bass and are designed to work well with solid state equipment.

Thanks for your input. Do you have any recommendations on the modern tube preamp that have tone controls and won't cost and arm and leg. Thanks

[speakerdave]

. . . . modern tube preamp that have tone controls . . . .

I don't know one, but that does not mean there aren't any.

I've never done it, but I think you could put an equalizer in the tape loop if a preamp has one.

[dino]

I don't know one, but that does not mean there aren't any.

I've never done it, but I think you could put an equalizer in the tape loop if a preamp has one.

Thanks. Yea I thought about that as well .. ( equalizer) I am going to just take my time and research. Thanks

[DavidF]

Thanks for your input. Do you have any recommendations on the modern tube preamp that have tone controls and won't cost and arm and leg. Thanks

Here is one model that may fit the bill. Vincent Audio SA31 hybrid.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/Vincent-Audio-SA-31-Hybrid-Stereo-Preamplifier/productinfo/VISA31/#.Uyr2cVf-7-I
61716

[Mr. Widget]

I'm sure you can spend more on bargain vintage preamps by the time you get it repaired, retubed, and track down the ebay thief who didn't ship what he said he was shipping etc...

This one looks like a bargain, and it has tone controls. :D


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

Why don't you take your Emotiva power amp to a few dealers and try out with some valve preamps? (if you till have it)..


Just that you seem to be buying gear un heard and relying on 3rd party opinion which is fine to talk and make light reading on the train but is hit and miss.

[Ian Mackenzie]

FWIEW I tend to agree with Dave and the others that it may pay to stretch your budget, pay a bit more and get a lot more.

I have used Cary and AR pre amps and found after a while the mid bloom masked the life like realism of the original recording. Spend more and they sound less like valves. Read as much on 6moons.

Have a look for a Jfet or a mosfet based pre, the benefits of triode without the issues.

Some vintage ML pre amps, a Pass would be interesting.

[dino]

Thank you all. I bought a dyanco pas-3 super clean from a friend of mine name Joe. Who let me try it out before I bought it. He have a McIntosh vintage tube preamp he was trying to sell me for 1600$. WOW what a difference, between night and day. Just by changing out a SS preamp to a tube it's a BEAUTIFUL thing.:D:D::bouncy::bouncy:

[grumpy]

Have a fun time chasing the white rabbit :)

[dino]

Have a fun time chasing the white rabbit :)

Pic of dynaco pas-3

[grumpy]

... a fun and nice (nostalgic) looking piece of gear :)
Great hobby, eh?

[dino]

[QUOTE=grumpy;359910]... a fun and nice (nostalgic) looking piece of gear :)
Great hobby, eh?[/QUOTE:D

Yes Sir.

[speakerdave]

Yeah. Actually I'm glad you went ahead and did what you wanted to do.