additional Tweeter on 4430 Series ???

[notengewirr]

some people use additional super-tweeters on JBL, Tad, Ray-Audio two way Horn-speakers.
a few years ago i read about the slightly 'roll off' of some compression- drivers on CD-Horns,especially of the 44XX series. I think is was in an article about the construction of the 4430/35 and 4425,but i can not find it again...i only remember that the constructor advised "better EQ the High Freq instead using a separate tweeter "

I do so !
i use an analog SPL Qure Tube-EQ to slightly boost the upper heights on my 4425 ( with Radians ) ,and it works fine !
Very subtile boost with very wide 'Q' of 0,3 for minimal phase shift.
Not long ago i saw one of Mr Kenricks Videos. He demonstrated his Ray Audio with additional Tweeter.
JBL 4429 also uses a Super- tweeter on top
I Think , the main problem of an additional Tweeter is the exact level & phase-adjustment.
For me the additional equipment is no problem. i Have identical Power-Amps and also a very good analog active 24dB crossover with adjustable crossover-freq.

:confused: So my question is :
someone tried here with 44XX Horns ?
Are the JBL 2402 or 2404 a good choice ???
more suggestions ???

[martin_wu99]

some people use additional super-tweeters on JBL, Tad, Ray-Audio two way Horn-speakers.
a few years ago i read about the slightly 'roll off' of some compression- drivers on CD-Horns,especially of the 44XX series. I think is was in an article about the construction of the 4430/35 and 4425,but i can not find it again...i only remember that the constructor advised "better EQ the High Freq instead using a separate tweeter "

I do so !
i use an analog SPL Qure Tube-EQ to slightly boost the upper heights on my 4425 ( with Radians ) ,and it works fine !
Very subtile boost with very wide 'Q' of 0,3 for minimal phase shift.
Not long ago i saw one of Mr Kenricks Videos. He demonstrated his Ray Audio with additional Tweeter.
JBL 4429 also uses a Super- tweeter on top
I Think , the main problem of an additional Tweeter is the exact level & phase-adjustment.
For me the additional equipment is no problem. i Have identical Power-Amps and also a very good analog active 24dB crossover with adjustable crossover-freq.

:confused: So my question is :
someone tried here with 44XX Horns ?
Are the JBL 2402 or 2404 a good choice ???
more suggestions ???
For the old two way system,add a super-tweeter(not tweeter) is a must.you can see modern JBL speakers all have a super tweeter:D

[more10]

Best JBL 15" midrange advice needed # 7 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?31851-Best-JBL-15-quot-midrange-advice-needed&p=321246&viewfull=1#post321246):


so a tweeter above it isn't really needed unless you need to sterilize teenage bats...:)

You will have to compare dispersion of the butt-cheeks with the baby-cheeks. If you add a tweeter it must have the same characteristics as the midhorn, a baby-cheek. It will reach higher.

[Mr. Widget]

:confused: So my question is :
someone tried here with 44XX Horns ?
Are the JBL 2402 or 2404 a good choice ???
more suggestions ???Here is one example:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23385-2405-s-in-a-4435

The short answer is that it is all about compromises. A two way is simple and there is a lot to be said for simplicity. That said, actively or passively EQing extra highs out of a compression driver also brings up the distortion and that may or may not be more troubling than the lobing and comb filter issues with an added driver... then again, stock with no tweeter or extra EQ boost the top end may sound a bit rolled off.

You'll need to experience all three and see what you prefer. You may also want to replace the Radian diaphragms with Aluminum 2421 diaphragms.


Widget

[more10]

replace the Radian diaphragms

Radian diaphragms or Radian drivers? You can get them with Be diaphragms now.

[Lee in Montreal]

4425, 4430, 4435. The simplicity of a 2-way system. Some compromises were made to get there and I am ready to accept them. Who needs sizzling UHF anyway? ;-) But it is indeed possible to add a super tweeter. But then you now have a 3 way system and I am sure you would get a better sounding 3-way system using a different configuration. I love my 2360 paired to a 2226 woofer. It is simple. Jazz and electronic music sound great. It doesn't sizzle but I learned to appreciate the roll-off. I have a spare set of 2405 and not even tempted to connect them. I admit I run the big horn thru an active crossover, which helps me get the sound I like.

[Mostlydiy]

Radian diaphragms or Radian drivers? You can get them with Be diaphragms now.

Wouldnt changing the diaphrams to Be add some HF extension?

/Mostly

[Robh3606]

Wouldnt changing the diaphrams to Be add some HF extension?

There is a 1" Be diaphram out that fits 2421/25/26?? Nice, would like to see that. As far as extension it depends. Looking at the JBL and Trueextent no not really. They seem to roll off but what's there is cleaner and has much less break up. On the Ti all that is coming from the break-up modes so the distortion is quite high.

Rob:)

[more10]

There is a 1" Be diaphram out that fits 2421/25/26??

No, but the Radian 475PB (http://radianaudio.com//index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=27033&category_id=18&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=40) can be fitted with, or bought with, a be diaphragm. This driver has about the same exit angle as the JBL drivers. The spec sheet (http://radianaudio.com//components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/prod_files/450pb_465pb_475pb.pdf) with alu diaphragm.

[grumpy]

I think I'd go 2404 first... The 2344 slot width may not support pattern control at higher freqs... meaning the higher frequencies could beam.

if more output at HF was not the goal, Be might be a nice improvement in other ways.

[Fort Knox]

Here is one example:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23385-2405-s-in-a-4435

The short answer is that it is all about compromises. A two way is simple and there is a lot to be said for simplicity. That said, actively or passively EQing extra highs out of a compression driver also brings up the distortion and that may or may not be more troubling than the lobing and comb filter issues with an added driver... then again, stock with no tweeter or extra EQ boost the top end may sound a bit rolled off.

You'll need to experience all three and see what you prefer. You may also want to replace the Radian diaphragms with Aluminum 2421 diaphragms.


Widget

I'm a two/way man ..and as for distortion.. a high performance preamp system.. can turn "bone stock" sp.
into a super linear pair...and yes ..."compromises" ..is a good word...

[Robh3606]

The 2344 slot width may not support pattern control at higher freqs

Hello Grumpy

It doesn't the gap is set for 16K above that the pattern is going to close up, still not going to be as bad as a 1" dome though.

Rob:)

[notengewirr]

ok, thanks a lot ;-)

i measured my ... ( must google translation :D...) my "sense of hearing" , and the result is =
My ears are NOT able to hear above 15-16Khz... OMG i'm 42 Years old man !:eek:
So my sizzle ( i think it means zischeln in german ) problem is solved !:applaud:

ok , joke apart, i know what you mean. Not long ago i used expensive B&W Speakers and yes they had this extreme heights & sparkling, but sometimes nerving and piercing in my ears !
Even with the little roll off of my 4425 compression drivers, my music is more enjoyable, more realistic & natural. Attacks and even reverberation-room is more realistic sounding.
I think a big advantage of my two way system is that only one cutoff freq. at ca 1.2khz, so the sensitive area at ca 3-5khz is covered by only one driver.No phase problems in this area.My B&W crossed at 3khz,so i heard a phase shifting by moving my head from sweep spot ! The 4425 are much better in this aspect.
Yes i read about a new Radian driver equipped with BE diaphragm, but i think it was Guido said the diaphragm will not fit in the 2415-16 ... perhaps to change to a complete Radian driver with BE ? Does it fit on the 4425 Horn ?
But then the crossover must be changed/aligned ??? I can't do such complicated crossover-tuning...
I think my Radian Alu Diaphragms placed in my 2415H are the best compromise ;-)
...Hmm on ebay i saw NOS baby-cheeks...... are they 100x100 degree dispersion too ???

[notengewirr]

for example : a fine or "right" sounding master should look like this slightly 'roll-off' EQ-curve ! (only the heights are interesting here)
i have the same tools here like very good plugins from Sonnox ,Waves, and for this example here Ozone-EQ is imaged.
and yes , all very good sounding masters looks like this curve !

61591

so, on JBL Speakers all music ( good and bad recordings ) sounds like fine masters....:uhmmmm:

cheers

[fpitas]

for example : a fine or "right" sounding master should look like this slightly 'roll-off' EQ-curve ! (only the heights are interesting here)
i have the same tools here like very good plugins from Sonnox ,Waves, and for this example here Ozone-EQ is imaged.
and yes , all very good sounding masters looks like this curve !

61591

so, on JBL Speakers all music ( good and bad recordings ) sounds like fine masters....:uhmmmm:

cheers

Yes, that is the so-called House Curve. A speaker which measures flat in an anechoic chamber will measure like that in a room which has reverberance. Early in the history of setting up sound systems in venues such as theaters, it originated as the x-curve. Here are some articles if you're interested:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/96-house-curve-what-why-you-need-how-do.html

http://lenardaudio.com/education/17_cinema_7.html

In practice, each room is a little different, and needs a slightly different high-frequency roll-off to sound natural.

[notengewirr]

very interesting links ! thank you ! :)


" a house curve is perceived flat response – that is, it sounds flat, not measures flat. "

if you have a acoustically hard sounding room, you have to attenuate the upper mids and heights a bit !


so on many Monitors we have the L-Pads to attenuate !

Also headphones have to sound very flat ,but look at their frequency response ;-)