Wood Oil Finish, safe sand?

[archiekaras]

Hi,

I see that the finish on the JBLs is written in the manuals as "oiled walnut", and it is obviously a veneer. I am wondering if it is safe to sand and refinish these. I mean if they have a lead based finish on them, this might not be a good idea and it might be better to take it to a pro. Would love to hear back on this issue.

[LRBacon]

Hi,

I see that the finish on the JBLs is written in the manuals as "oiled walnut", and it is obviously a veneer. I am wondering if it is safe to sand and refinish these. I mean if they have a lead based finish on them, this might not be a good idea and it might be better to take it to a pro. Would love to hear back on this issue.

Most of the older oiled walnut finishes are hand finished and oiled with the formula in the thread link below:


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28557-Cabinet-oil&highlight=linseed+oil+turpentine

Larry

[grumpy]

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/reference/general/finish/page02.jpg

... as to whether it's "safe" or not, I'd suggest reading some references that include precautions for -any- kind of wood/furniture refinishing. It is your responsibility to understand the need for these precautions.

That said, on a relative scale of refinishing operations, this is pretty "safe"

[LRBacon]

No lead in either boiled linseed oil or pure gum turpentine. You don't want to leave your used rags laying around inside. Linseed oil is known for spontaneous combustion when left out in the open. I have left the rags I use outside on a rack and have not had any problems with them catching fire.

Larry

[rdgrimes]

Personally I refuse to use the linseed/turpentine cocktail cause it just stinks too much and is highly flammable. The only issue with sanding the walnut veneer is if someone has previously used varnish or wax on it, which tends to gum up a lot of sandpaper. Just be aware you only have just so much veneer on there, about 1/8".

[bill8888]

Personally I refuse to use the linseed/turpentine cocktail cause it just stinks too much and is highly flammable. The only issue with sanding the walnut veneer is if someone has previously used varnish or wax on it, which tends to gum up a lot of sandpaper. Just be aware you only have just so much veneer on there, about 1/8".

Actually, the walnut veneer is only 1/32 inch thick (.031). After sanding, you're better off applying a Watco brand Danish oil finish than mixing your own cocktail of oils. I use the Watco medium walnut for most of my speakers. The Watco dark walnut is fine if you want a darker finish, but it's gummier to apply. The JBL formula for the oil finish is designed to be cheap and easy to apply for mass production.

[archiekaras]

No lead in either boiled linseed oil or pure gum turpentine. You don't want to leave your used rags laying around inside. Linseed oil is known for spontaneous combustion when left out in the open. I have left the rags I use outside on a rack and have not had any problems with them catching fire.

Larry

Not sure, they seem to use a drying agent (lead) in BOILED linseed oil. Modern boiled linseed oil doesnt seem to have lead, though it might have other metallic dryers.

[JBLP]

Hi,
You can sand the veneer, but as said, it's a thin layer so you have to be careful!
See pictures below: I did a pair of L80T's. They were in a bad shape and the veneer looked dull and scratched.
But during sanding I found out the veneer was colored, so it turned pale after sanding.
Had to color them again with a water based pigment, mixed three colors and tested and tested......
Then used diluent/solvents-free oil, two layers. Put it on thick, wait a while and wipe the surplus off.

Result:
60931

[archiekaras]

Hi,
You can sand the veneer, but as said, it's a thin layer so you have to be careful!
See pictures below: I did a pair of L80T's. They were in a bad shape and the veneer looked dull and scratched.
But during sanding I found out the veneer was colored, so it turned pale after sanding.
Had to color them again with a water based pigment, mixed three colors and tested and tested......
Then used diluent/solvents-free oil, two layers. Put it on thick, wait a while and wipe the surplus off.

Result:
60931

Nice job!!!!!!

And you lived to tell the story, maybe this lead in the boiled variation of linseed oil thing is a little over blown.

[bill8888]

Hi,
You can sand the veneer, but as said, it's a thin layer so you have to be careful!
See pictures below: I did a pair of L80T's. They were in a bad shape and the veneer looked dull and scratched.
But during sanding I found out the veneer was colored, so it turned pale after sanding.
Had to color them again with a water based pigment, mixed three colors and tested and tested......
Then used diluent/solvents-free oil, two layers. Put it on thick, wait a while and wipe the surplus off.

Result:
60931

The reason the veneer turned pale after sanding is because the veneer on JBL "consumer" speakers after 1985 is not a true black walnut veneer. It's a synthetic wood product that resembles genuine veneer. If you sand it too much the grain will actually disappear. True black walnut doesn't need to be tinted to become dark when oiled. I believe the last "consumer" JBL speaker made with real walnut is the L96. The JBL "Professional" line used real walnut.

[rdgrimes]

The reason the veneer turned pale after sanding is because the veneer on JBL "consumer" speakers after 1985 is not a true black walnut veneer. It's a synthetic wood product that resembles genuine veneer. If you sand it too much the grain will actually disappear. True black walnut doesn't need to be tinted to become dark when oiled. I believe the last "consumer" JBL speaker made with real walnut is the L96. The JBL "Professional" line used real walnut.

True that. the later models have a completely different tone. The linseed/turpentine rub gives the black walnut a reddish tone that darkens with age. But apart from that, most any finish or even plain oil will darken them right up after sanding. You just don't quite get that reddish tone.

FWIW, the 250ti had real walnut available and I think that was later than the L96.

[bill8888]

FWIW, the 250ti had real walnut available and I think that was later than the L96.[/QUOTE]


The standard 250Ti used fake teak veneer like the rest of the Ti series. A 250Ti in real walnut would be a special order, like the black piano finish or rosewood. Not many were made.

[BeDome]

Hi,
You can sand the veneer, but as said, it's a thin layer so you have to be careful!
See pictures below: I did a pair of L80T's. They were in a bad shape and the veneer looked dull and scratched.
But during sanding I found out the veneer was colored, so it turned pale after sanding.
Had to color them again with a water based pigment, mixed three colors and tested and tested......
Then used diluent/solvents-free oil, two layers. Put it on thick, wait a while and wipe the surplus off.

Result:
60931

Very nice save!

My old 4312s were a little scrubbed up when I acquired them. I had my totally cherry 4301s to compare to. (similar era) I sanded, patched lost veneer, patched again and again (painted in the grain in the big patches using a tiny brush), then oiled, used the linseed and turp mix outside, left them to cure in the sun, did it again, did it again, lost track of how many coats it took to get to where they should be, sanding a bit between every other coat or so. I ended up using 1000 grit, long, flatplane sanding and then another oiling. They looked "better than new!"

The idea is to allow the oil to seep in and "dry" then sand off (using extremely fine and finer abrasive) what did not soak in. Oil again.

I was lucky that the wood underneath had not warped and the veneer had not lifted. I used them in my movie rig, until I fabbed some Cabaret type "loud boxes" for the movie rig.

[archiekaras]

Well, I was more concerned over the toxicity / lead aspect of this sanding job. I went ahead and sanded, had no respirator, did it inside..NOT SMART I KNOW...but I am still alive. however, I recommend for others to take the needed precautions as the oil composed of a BOILED linseed oil concoction may contain lead. Note that boiled linseed oil is not the same as raw linseed oil, it contains metallic driers (often lead in earlier boils and mostly cobalt in later ones). In 1978 lead additives were for the most part outlawed, but who knows if the factories paid any attention to the regulations. Next time I will certainly exercise more caution, and I hope others do as well.

I used 220, 320, 400 and 600. I got most of the deeper scratches out, but was careful to not go through the veneer. It looks pretty nice in the end. After they were sanded I used restor-a-finish walnut, the look to my eyes is fairly close to the original. I do suppose that it can be rubbed further with 800 grit or higher depending on how mirrored you would like to get the finish. From the pictures the originals seem to be slightly more on the rough side (320/400/600 grit) as opposed to the shiny piano style finish(1000/2000 grit).

[SEAWOLF97]

The standard 250Ti used fake teak veneer like the rest of the Ti series. A 250Ti in real walnut would be a special order, like the black piano finish or rosewood. Not many were made.

if that really is fake teak veneer, they sure did a great job of it. I've had 4 250ti's and they all had different grain patterns. are you sure ? maybe confusing the "T" series ?

the pod and edges are solid, and where the veneer has peeled around the bottom of the skirt sure looks real to me.

[subwoof]

Braewood is the company / trademarked name for the fake veneer.
It's on the 4408's I just refinished but not the 4401's that are just a little older.
It's a different shade when oiled or poly'ed and really looks different than the classic veneers of old.

Really don't know if there was a cutoff date for the change since the consumer and pro divisions had their own agenda and price/target points.

and IF there was any lead in the linseed oil you would have to INGEST it or inhale the powdered dust after it dried to get into your system. both are pretty unlikely so the real danger here is the single cigarette you smoked near the open can..:)

BTW when sanding the real walnut veneers be sure to use a air nozzle to blow out all the fine dust in the grain before applying anything.. Makes the WORLD of difference in the depth / texture when properly oiled and/or coated.

sub

[rdgrimes]

Well, I was more concerned over the toxicity / lead aspect of this sanding job. I went ahead and sanded, had no respirator, did it inside..NOT SMART I KNOW...but I am still alive. however, I recommend for others to take the needed precautions as the oil composed of a BOILED linseed oil concoction may contain lead. Note that boiled linseed oil is not the same as raw linseed oil, it contains metallic driers (often lead in earlier boils and mostly cobalt in later ones). In 1978 lead additives were for the most part outlawed, but who knows if the factories paid any attention to the regulations. Next time I will certainly exercise more caution, and I hope others do as well.

I used 220, 320, 400 and 600. I got most of the deeper scratches out, but was careful to not go through the veneer. It looks pretty nice in the end. After they were sanded I used restor-a-finish walnut, the look to my eyes is fairly close to the original. I do suppose that it can be rubbed further with 800 grit or higher depending on how mirrored you would like to get the finish. From the pictures the originals seem to be slightly more on the rough side (320/400/600 grit) as opposed to the shiny piano style finish(1000/2000 grit).

One good way to get a more lustrous finish is to use 0000 steel wool to apply your finish. Follow up polishing with the same can also be done.

[JBLP]

The veneer is for sure not synthetic;
I have a set L20T and a set L80T and seen some more L80T and L100T sets and they all have a different grain and different lines.
When you look at a synthetic laminate with a photo print (or other drawing) you will see the repeats coming back.

A closer look:

6095860959609606096160962

[bill8888]

The veneer is for sure not synthetic;
I have a set L20T and a set L80T and seen some more L80T and L100T sets and they all have a different grain and different lines.
When you look at a synthetic laminate with a photo print (or other drawing) you will see the repeats coming back.

A closer look:

6095860959609606096160962

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word "fake" in describing the veneer used on later JBL speakers. It's a real wood veneer from real trees, except it's not from the trees you think it's from. The trees are the soft fast growing variety from South America, Africa, and Asia. The veneer is shaved off, colored and dyed, and textured until you can't see the difference from real exotic hardwood. Plus it's pre-finished from the manufacturer so no sanding, oiling, or waxing is required. It's not a plastic laminate...it's real wood only disguised to look like expensive hardwood. It works fine until you have to repair or refinish it.

If your JBL is built before 1985 it's real genuine walnut hardwood veneer (or real oak veneer for some models). After 1985 it could be real or fake depending on the model. Most people cannot tell the difference just by looking.

[hjames]

The veneer is for sure not synthetic;
I have a set L20T and a set L80T and seen some more L80T and L100T sets and they all have a different grain and different lines.
When you look at a synthetic laminate with a photo print (or other drawing) you will see the repeats coming back.


Sure - My L20T was real wood veneer - but the L20T3s I had later were not -
they were the weird veneer that one of the folks on the Lansing forum jokingly called "spaghetti wood" ...
It was wood with a grain that had been "rearranged" ...
Not at all like the walnut veneer of my 4341 studio monitors, not at all like my old L36 Decades ...

[SEAWOLF97]

If your JBL is built before 1985 it's real genuine walnut hardwood veneer (or real oak veneer for some models). After 1985 it could be real or fake depending on the model. Most people cannot tell the difference just by looking.

On my four 250ti's (unknown build date - prolly about 85'ish) , the veneer looks very close to the teak solids on the tweeter pods and the quarter rounds on the edges. I'd put money that it's real teak veneer. (I can't imagine JBL putting crap on their TOTL (at the time) consumer product) :dont-know:

OTOH ... I've had L60T's, L80T's , 4408's, 4410's and 4412's that the veneer was obviously man-made. Those "veneers" chip quite easily , and I tried to oil the L80T's once , the oil just pooled there ...like a small puddle. :eek: (would not even attempt to sand that spaghetti wood :eek::eek: )

worse still ... the 4671OK's had a vinyl, wood looking covering ...yuk :barf:

[BMWCCA]

On my four 250ti's (unknown build date - prolly about 85'ish) , the veneer looks very close to the teak solids on the tweeter pods and the quarter rounds on the edges. I'd put money that it's real teak veneer. (I can't imagine JBL putting crap on their TOTL (at the time) consumer product) :dont-know:

OTOH ... I've had L60T's, L80T's , 4408's, 4410's and 4412's that the veneer was obviously man-made. Those "veneers" chip quite easily , and I tried to oil the L80T's once , the oil just pooled there ...like a small puddle. :eek: (would not even attempt to sand that spaghetti wood :eek::eek:
I've been hearing this sorry description of this series' veneer from years and my experience has been exactly the opposite. My first pair of "T"s were the L20Ts that Heather picked up for me. She was nice enough to treat them with Howard's before delivering them . . . and they took the oil just fine.

My next were a pair of L80Ts that I sanded and re-finished with Watco Danish oil. They sanded out just fine and took the oil very well. There's a picture of them around here before-and-after style. Let me see if I can find it:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/DSC_1402.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/BMWCCA1/media/DSC_1402.jpg.html)

Obviously the oil soaked very nicely into what can only be called the real-wood veneer on these! Also note that the grain on the front face is near mirror-image but not quite. You'd assume fake wood trim would be imprinted with duplicate grain patterns, not near-duplicate like you'd see in actual wood slices for veneer sheets.

[hjames]

I was pretty sure the Spaghetti wood veneers started with the T3 portion of the L-series speakers.
Here are 2 pictures - the first shows an (oak) L20T on top of an L20T3 (faux Mahogany?) on top of an L100T (walnut)
The 2nd is a set of 6 L20T3s I had collected at one time to create a surround system for a friend ...

I've had no problem with mild sanding and steel wooling on the L20T and L100T speakers,
followed by applying Howard's Orange oil or Feed'n'Wax to the surface ...
Those weird L20T3s didn't take oil quite the same way ...

[JuniorJBL]

I was pretty sure the Spaghetti wood veneers started with the T3 portion of the L-series speakers.
Here are 2 pictures - the first shows an (oak) L20T on top of an L20T3 (faux Mahogany?) on top of an L100T (walnut)
The 2nd is a set of 6 L20T3s I had collected at one time to create a surround system for a friend ...

I've had no problem with mild sanding and steel wooling on the L20T and L100T speakers,
followed by applying Howard's Orange oil or Feed'n'Wax to the surface ...
Those weird L20T3s didn't take oil quite the same way ...


Those are good pics Heather. They really show the difference of the two. My 200T3's dont take oil either and I am not sure what wood they were trying to recreate. :blink:

Looking at the veneers here http://www.worldpanel.com/braewood.htm I would say my 200T3's were of the rosewood variety.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've been hearing this sorry description of this series' veneer from years and my experience has been exactly the opposite.

So then , your experience completely negates mine ? sorry for the sorry misinformation. You are obviously the superior wood evaluator.


My 200T3's dont take oil either and I am not sure what wood they were trying to recreate. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/blink.gif

[BMWCCA]

So then , your experience completely negates mine ? sorry for the sorry misinformation. You are obviously the superior wood evaluator.
Sheesh. Bad day? ;)

You shared your experience, I shared mine. Mine seem to be substantiated by Heather's, too. All I'm saying is that my L80Ts (two pair, in fact) sanded and took oil just fine, and I shared photos with the before-and-after results. Heather's shared experience suggests the funky wood may have started with the T3 series and that seems to be substantiated by your quote from JuniorJBL, too.

It's just an opinion. Sorry if it offended you.


On a less-controversial subject: 220,000 mies on my E34 with the M50TU engine. Never even had the valve-cover off. How's your M60 doing?

[SEAWOLF97]

Sheesh. Bad day? ;)

On a less-controversial subject: 220,000 mies on my E34 with the M50TU engine. Never even had the valve-cover off. How's your M60 doing?

you were the one with the
I've been hearing this sorry description of this series' veneer from years comment. My experience is 180 different, but doesn't make yours "sorry"

[BMWCCA]

*Just passed 2,700 bike miles YTD. Equivalent to 14,800 car miles.


At least!

[audiomagnate]

At least!

I will be refinishing a pair of L80t's soon. It might not be American Black Walnut, but it's definitely just regular veneer. It also looks like the cabs were veneered after the cabinets were assembled.