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lfh
10-18-2004, 03:31 PM
The other day I turned down a rare opportunity to buy a pair of 4343:s in excellent condition (probably only 8 pairs sold in Sweden!). After a couple of sleepless nights I've concluded that they're just too big and expensive and that I'm better off with a DIY project. So what could possibly be a good substitute for the big blue beasts?

I've long wanted a system built around 2441:s, so this is the starting point. Furthermore, a 12" (or even 10") bass driver will be adequate for my needs in terms of acoustical power, and will help keeping cabinet size down as well as faciliate a smooth crossover to the 2441:s. (I don't want the hazzle of sorting out a 4-way design. ;)) Tuning wise I'll strive for a Bessel-like transfer function when factoring in the LF room gain. This will be an interesting task in itself.

For midrange horns I'd like to use Westlake style 2397-derivatives, but this is something for the future. (I've bought a single 2397 from Jammin' Jersey for measurements and experimentation, and Mr. Widget has kindly sent me drawings.) The first incarnation of this system will instead use the 2311/2308 combo (or maybe Selenium HL14-50/2308?). I'll go straight for biamping, hoping a 4:th order L/R will allow the 2311 (or Selenium) to be crossed as low as 800 Hz.

As for UHF I consider to use 2403, as they'll allow for greater flexibility in crossover frequency selection than the 2405, and are highly regarded by forum members. I expect them to work well above the Smith horns later on. Last but not least they look cool! Mieow!

Reflecting the upgrade plan, the cabinet will be designed to only hold the bass driver. This will also allow for driver positioning and time alignment experimentation. (A simple baffle will hold the mid and UHF horn.)

To summarize:

Stage 1 - "Baby S22" (Hopefully running this year):

2203H + 2441/2311/2308 + 2403


Stage 2 (ETA next year):

2203H + 2441/"2397" + 2403


Clearly, the road doesn't necessarily end there. Stage 3 could either address the lowend (e.g. 2235H + 2012H) or further refine the mids (TAD-400x), but first things first...

What do you think? I know this path has been walked before. Any and all advice would be highly appreciated! Least thought has gone into bass driver selection. Maybe I should look in other directions than 2203:s since cone kits AFAIK are NLA? I already have the 2441:s and 2308:s, a single 2311, and I'm negotiating a deal on 2403:s.

Fredrik

Mr. Widget
10-18-2004, 10:04 PM
I think you have a good game plan. I would suggest you consider the 2214H woofer instead of the 2203. I have no personal experience with either woofer but the 2203 was used as a sub and the 2214H was used in the 4425 with a 1200Hz crossover. I would guess an 800Hz crossover to a 2441/2397 with the tweeter and sub of your choice would yield a fantastic speaker.

Keep us posted.

Widget

Robh3606
10-20-2004, 10:17 AM
That sounds like a plan. I use 2214 in my XPL's they are nice woofers and they will give you a good solid lowend amd a clean midbass lower midrange. If I remember though Giskard was recommending the 128h-1 as a better woofer to go up to 1.2K in the L200T's as the 120 were not available. I think he posted response graphs somewhere for both. I have 128's too and again another nice driver. Can't imaging you going wrong with either.

Rob:)

lfh
10-21-2004, 12:50 PM
All, thanks much for your advice! I've been really lucky hunting for parts. Thus I'll pick up a pair of 2214H:s and the pair of 2403:s on Sunday. Now I only need one more 2311.

BTW, (forum member) Pangea has invited me to listen to his 2311-style Selenium horns. He has been busy putting a very nice system together - expect him to show up here in the near future with a report.

In order to reduce TTP (Time To Play), I think I'll cheat and buy ready made cabinets intended for subwoofer applications. With extra bracing they'll be fine for v0.1 of the system. Time to fire up LspCAD!

So far,
Fredrik

Alex Lancaster
10-21-2004, 02:54 PM
I will be very interested on Your comments about the Selenium horns.

lfh
12-03-2004, 01:26 PM
Meanwhile I've acquired lots of goodies: The aforementioned 2403s and 2214s, an M552, a pair of 2311s and - dig this - a pair of 2397s! Giskard suggested in another thread that I should consider using LE14s, and that kept me busy for some days (reading up on existing applications and playing around with alignments in the computer). That seems to be a viable option indeed, but then I might as well step up to a 15 in. Furthermore, given the 2397s, larger drivers are almost necessary for aesthetical reasons...

Compare this (2214):

lfh
12-03-2004, 01:29 PM
To this (2231):

lfh
12-03-2004, 01:57 PM
I've had a pair of fine 2231s (purchased from Pangea) in storage for some time, intended for another project. However, I've finally decided they are put to better use here, so 2231s it's going to be, even though this is a departure from the original intention of building compact speakers... Oh, well. Thus, the revised specification is as follows (skipping the S22-step):

Stage 1 - "(Baby) Eastlake"

2231H + 2441/2328/2397 + 2403 + M552 + (passive xover)

The biased 3107 and 3155-equivalent without autoformers will serve as starting points for the passive filter design.

I have a decent power amp to drive the basses, but I need a good amp for the highs. I think (given my typically low listening levels and the high sensitivity of the compression drivers plus horns) a low noise class-A design is the only option. First on my lists of candidates to analyze is the Penultimate Zen (the final single ended verison with feedback) by Nelson Pass. Did anyone try this fine little amp in such an application? (Ian?)

lfh
12-03-2004, 02:04 PM
I will be very interested on Your comments about the Selenium horns.

Ok, I'll comment once I've given them a fair listen. (I forgot my reference records when visiting Pangea :banghead: )

Earl K
12-03-2004, 03:27 PM
I will be very interested on Your comments about the Selenium horns.


Hi Alex, I've been listening to these Selenium horns ( in my MTM setups ), for at least 2 years. Since I don't want to comment about them here ( it'll just side-track ifhs' thread ) , how about starting a new thread querying their attributes, etc. - there, people who use them or have heard them, can comment on them.

<. Earl K :)

Alex Lancaster
12-03-2004, 04:36 PM
Hi Earl:


Yes, pls start a new thread, I have 2311īs, which I am using, and 4 Seleniums, which I am about to use, if anything, the casting looks better on the Seleniums.

Alex Lancaster
12-03-2004, 04:41 PM
:) Hi Ifh, "Eastlake" sounds good:D :D , I think You will need a pair of 2231īs per side, to keep up with the 2441, and then, something like a 2202 between them.

Mr. Widget
12-03-2004, 05:12 PM
After my excursions down that road, I think I would go with a "Super-Sized" 4345 instead. Basically build a 4345 using help from Bo and Ian's threads and substitute the 2441 and 2397.

Just my thoughts... oh look there are Bo and Ian. :D:D

lfh
12-16-2004, 04:14 PM
I've been listening to the 2397s and 2403s for some days now in a very Q&D setup (crossing them at 10 kHz and at 1100 Hz (active) to a 7 in LF/mid in a closed box) and WOW! Those components sound good "out of the box". It's like cooking with first rate ingredients; it tastes delicious with just salt and pepper. The soundstage has the 3-dimensionality I love, and the "fun at low levels criterion" is easily met. I'm sooo happy! :D

The work per se is immensely fun as well. I haven't used SPICE since the mid 90:s, so hacking away in MacSpice (http://newton.ex.ac.uk/teaching/CDHW/MacSpice/) is a pleasure.

lfh
12-16-2004, 04:33 PM
After my excursions down that road, I think I would go with a "Super-Sized" 4345 instead. Basically build a 4345 using help from Bo and Ian's threads and substitute the 2441 and 2397.

:hmm:

Well, at least it seems likely that I'm going 4-way, again departuring from the original plan. A smallish cone mid will definitely help crossing to the wide dispersion Smiths, and reflecting the nice measurements you've done, I'm inclined crossing at 1 kHz plus. If I cross the mid bass low enough I can always tell myself it's basically a two way, albeit slightly enhanced at the frequency extremes ;)

However, I'll play around with many configurations, probably even MTM (inspired by Project May). I'm not in a hurry, and estetics is not a concern, so various temporal (read: ugly) solutions are fine.