4313B's 066 in need of a miracle...

[Malefoda]

Hello there!

I've managed to get a pair of 4313Bs, look nice but the tweeters. They have been paint in black with thick paint and this with a heavy brush... needless to say the dome is glued with the baffle alu part... a nightmare.
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Seems someone has lost his sanity... Soundwise highs are dull and shy, held.

They can't take the throne now, still used by my 4311. (btw, do 4313B need more power than my 4311 wich can do fine with 30W at moderate level?)
I decided to remove de paint (don't miss the t, coz the pain is still here), I managed to do it but sadly the dome itself lost its aluminium deposit at the same time.
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Based on experienced users, is a coating possible? Like a spray or such, even if I guess it's not hardware store mutlipurpose "gray" paint but something more expensive and pro,
or are they dead and worth hunting for a lovely pair? Before choosing with the "always on loudness" 4311 and these I need to hear what they can do ;)

Many thanks, Matthieu

[Audiobeer]

Do they work as is? If so there is no reason you cant mask off the surface around the dome and go with several light dustings of paint to get the coverage. Remember several light coatings is better than 1 heavy. As for as power requirements go the 4313B and the 4311s have the same requirements. I prefer the 4313Bs hands down!

[grumpy]

I'd just run 'em naked. Save the silver paint for when/if you sell them.
It was likely paint anyway if it came off fairly easily (vs the initial run that
had vapor deposition Al coating).

[4343]

Auto paint shops sell a highly reflective aluminum paint for coating the inside of light housings. I'd try that first if you want the silver look back. Light coats...

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows, thanks for helping,


Do they work as is? If so there is no reason you cant mask off the surface around the dome and go with several light dustings of paint to get the coverage. Remember several light coatings is better than 1 heavy. As for as power requirements go the 4313B and the 4311s have the same requirements. I prefer the 4313Bs hands down!
They were working painted black, badly, but they were... they will even better now ;) I've tried them few and mounted on chairs, unfair as the 4311 were on their stands. Anyway, I've planned to live several weeks with one then the other until I set on the one I want to keep, another story, have to fully fix the 4313Bs first.



I'd just run 'em naked. Save the silver paint for when/if you sell them.
It was likely paint anyway if it came off fairly easily (vs the initial run that
had vapor deposition Al coating).
So they changed the coating proccess? And they sound nice without aluminium "color"... sounds like the aluminium coating is the lipstick for that babe to seduce and then sell more ;)



Auto paint shops sell a highly reflective aluminum paint for coating the inside of light housings. I'd try that first if you want the silver look back. Light coats...

Yes I want the look back! I've found that (A+400), need to find a seller now...
http://www.weicon.com/pages/en/products/spray/surface-corrosion-protection/aluminium-spray.php

[grumpy]

I think an effective A/B test would be difficult... the speakers are voiced differently enough
that it may be productive to audition each at length (as you've suggested), such that your
ears have time to become accustomed to the "view" provided by each system.

The speakers that are intended to be more "accurate" may or may not be your personal
preference. Both systems can be quite enjoyable. Have fun with your project and comparison.

[Malefoda]

Have fun with your project and comparison.

A big YES!

Thanks!

[Malefoda]

While I'm at it and as I can't find much when searched the forum about, any improvemenst to the cabinet by damping/bracing? It's open so I can add "stuff" if needed...
Aluminium spray on their way now ;)

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,

merry Xmas to all (and merry Xmax also ;) )

Again, a question in order to experience things in the right way. I've swapped the 4311 for the 4313B. The bass response is just fantastic, tight, punchy, low enough for me, the best -by far- I've had at home (20sqm room).
Sadly the highs are dull, recessed. I guess my 066 were abused too much, don't behave like they should. I can use the l-pad for a +2/3 to get some highs.
But what I do feel odd is that they image not that good, 4311 were easier on that. So my questions are do highs play a major role on creating the image -then have to wait for newer 066, wich is ok for me- or do they request a different placement than the 4311 (toe in, 30cm from flor and 40cm from back wall)?
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Side note, seems my 30Wpc amp is a bit at pain with the 4313B.

Thanks!
Matthieu

[macaroonie]

Joyeux Noel Mattieu. Perhaps there is foam behind the 066 dome that is rotted ? This is a common fault with tweets of this era.
Also check that the L pads are making good clean contact.

Good luck , these speakers are worth the effort. :)

[Malefoda]

And Happy new year ;)
Well I've decided to try the 4313Bs with my 4406's 035Tis. The 4406s are just computer's speaker and they will wait for their older sisters to get better. While at it the 035Tis' foam will be checked.
Meanwhile I'll remove the 066's domes and clean than out the best I can. Do you want pictures fellows ? =)

[Malefoda]

Nobody for pics?! Anyway, I've taken some so here they are ;)

First by JBL themselves, last line:
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035TIAs are the best candidates. They are also very suitable to my mod because they are self centered, they have a hole on the back of the magnet and... because my 4406s did have them ;)

I've decided to re-use the mesh in front of the dome, too much work to get it undone by accident. One can machine the case less (and have it smoothed on the edge) so the alu pushes and cover the centring screw's hole. Tighter fit and no need of screws, but unprotected dome... very 066 in a way!
In both cases the assy will be held tighter than just the front plastic plate haging in air with the heavy magnet on its back.
The magnet is centered using the bit on the 066's case, another tiny bit to be cut. The 066's magnet was glued on a rubber ring, I guess it was used to make a tight fit on the front part by pushing.
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The front plastic cut, no need to be perfect as it's used to keep the front sealed, wires are tiny so I had a hard time to protect them while getting them out of the glue. 4.1R on both coils, nice they are safe.
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Should be nice... more work later!
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[grumpy]

Interesting... that was not at all what I was expecting.
First time I've seen this particular "sew-a-dome-to-me" operation performed :)

[Malefoda]

And I'm stuck... because these screws are... imperial ones! They are nowhere sadly here or very pricey, as much as a tweeter. I'll make a call for help gents!
If anyone with 8-32 5/8", 6 pcs, and 8-32 1-1/2", 6 pcs also please make an offre for France, may find a deal!
Hope to find some soon, thanks.

[Malefoda]

Got screws, will have the 4313Bs back this weekend =)

Foam dampeners, I used a quite high density one. That should do the trick nicely. Extension wires, solid copper from Cat6 ethernet cable, 23AWG, are held with neoprene glue. Tight enough and no vibrations here.
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Casing prior to the sealing of the assy, I like the look, hope I'll like the sound as much =) But the 035TiA is in fact something like 4mm deeper in the 4313B, will this have an impact on delay? I guess a tilted speaker does have the same or even more amount of time shift?!
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[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,

that first step is a success, and I'm quite proud of how I did it cleanly.
You can check the visual result, saldy not the sound. But believe me, it's just great. By far the best speakers I owned, ever. 4311? No, thanks.

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Thanks to all helpers :) Will go CC on next move...
Matthieu

[Malefoda]

More stable, in all meanings ;)
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[4313B]

Woah! Very nice!

Unfortunately for the 033 and 066 they were easily damaged.

[Malefoda]

What? A second line jumped in your message, I'm too tired.
And in my case they did not die, they were murdered... still have not found some in decent shape for collection. And I have the parts to build the CC network but the mid coil, wich I'll reuse from OEM.
You do have a nice nickname sir ;)

[Malefoda]

Hi gents and best wishes,

I have in hands 4 LE5-9 and don't know wich to take, soundwise. I can only check DCR, and maybe that's already pointless...
5.7R - looking mint
5.8R - dustcap slightly touched, paper black as night: dyed for sure
6.1R - good looking, paper slighlty rotten
6.4R - looking mint

I've tried to search info but that brings up millions of pages...

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,
here I'm ready for charge coupling. I got the parts, ready to go. So any input is welcome.

I may buld it on a hardboard/cork/hardboard sandwich,
have the XO outside of the cabinet (on the back, tight, or on the back, floating...)
have the coils nicely separated,
rewire the inside,
rethink the 035TIA network part (really, I'm at it, let's improve it if you guys know how to. I enjoy them lowered with L-pad anyway),
IF that is an improvement and not just a change in sound color (in wich very probale case I will leave it untouched) add some brace or wool inside the cabinet, stiffen the LE5-9 case (tiny pipe then glued to get rigidity or bitumen damping),
choose a nice way of connecting wires (Speakon? Phoenix?),
and other good ideas you may have!

Matthieu

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[pos]

I am late to the party, but those 4313Ti look absolutely stunning :thmbsup:
The visual match of the 035 with the other drivers is much better than the original 066 IMO.


(Speakon? Phoenix?)Speakon without a doubt!

[Malefoda]

Welcome to the party!
Yep aluminum outside and black inside for all drivers now, a detail but as you I've found that add a touch of design untiy ;)
One vote for speakon, registered.

I'm in the caps matching process, values fine tuning with the use of polystyrene caps to bypass large polypropylene ones.

[Malefoda]

Hi gents,

As I have two extra resistors (went for the same but higher power rating for the mids), being R3 and R4 in the 3113B network shown below :

* are they used as a 3dB/8Ω attenuation before the adjustable L-Pad?

if yes,

* can I add these resistors before the 035TiA L-pad, being something like 2/3dB louder than the long gone 066?

That will bring back the foilcal scaling OK, allowing to play with it at its best.
The power rating of these Mills should be Ok for HF. ( http://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/mills_data_0.pdf )

Another questions, just for my curiosity:
these are used in my 4406 also (where I've first planned to use these left resistors), but insterted between the input cap and the coil, will that just act as the pad or also in frequency filtering?

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[Malefoda]

Hi there,
read that http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?12420-Fixed-L-Pads and understood I'll need to mesure the actual Z prior to any change. I'll let the front L-Pad and if/when settings are ok for my actual room I may mesure and then replace that with resistors. So that is something to be done after CC is finished.

Side note, I've used the Mills MRA-5, both 2.4 and 20R, in the 4406 to replace the ciement ones. I've tightened the spades and screws at terminals while at it. Highs sound finer, maybe the loose connections, maybe the Mills resistors...

[Malefoda]

Work in progress...

[Malefoda]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?5473-Biased-4406-networks&p=395093&viewfull=1#post395093
(http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?5473-Biased-4406-networks&p=395093&viewfull=1#post395093)
:blink:

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,
I wonder what to do with wires:
- are they of well-sized gauge and quality to be re-used, or
- do I need to change them (no endless catfight here, if I change it -meaning OEM are crap- it will be for twisted Teflon silver plated copper) ?

[ARMED]

Got screws, will have the 4313Bs back this weekend =)

Foam dampeners, I used a quite high density one. That should do the trick nicely. Extension wires, solid copper from Cat6 ethernet cable, 23AWG, are held with neoprene glue. Tight enough and no vibrations here.
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Casing prior to the sealing of the assy, I like the look, hope I'll like the sound as much =) But the 035TiA is in fact something like 4mm deeper in the 4313B, will this have an impact on delay? I guess a tilted speaker does have the same or even more amount of time shift?!
61534will that foam in th middle deteriorate after a while and get in the coil? does it change the sound? like fiberglass inside an enclosure?

[Malefoda]

As for the foam it is because original one degrades that I did change it, common issue with several drivers.
That kind of thing:
http://ls3-5a-forum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10749
Yes it changes the sound; undampened, the Titanium plays too loud too harsh.

BTW, I've never heard the same as for the glass fibrer, in my speakers they look just fine, no loss of size due to gravity and vibration compression, like it can been seen under older roofs... You have example of it in speakers?

[Malefoda]

Hi fellows,
slow progress, but progress anyway. Next move: in speakers wiring. Maybe only one at a time, so I can do A/B comparaisons as a feature of my slow work.
And need a budget to buy 9V batteries! (They cost an arm here, don't know if it's worldwide the same... )

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[Malefoda]

Ok guys,

finished it today.
Checked Xo and 9V several times, looked fine. But it is not ='(
One speaker works fine but the other do not: HF is not/or barley working (mids to noisy for me to say) and high frequencies are played in full by the mids! The stereo image is unbalanced and that's how I've found the problem.

Right now I've lost any courage to touch it, I'm so sad I'm rewarded of all this work by a problem. :(

What have I done to my beloved speakers... stupid me!

[pos]

Don't worry, you just need a little time and method to track the problem down and I am sure your speakers will sing like never before! :)

[Audiobeer]

Wish I could send you some functional ugly 066's just to plug and play

[Malefoda]

Thanks for kind words Pos and Audiobeer!

I now have spare 066s, ugly but Ok, wich I don't want to use after a quick comparaison a few months back. Maybe I am now used to the -tamed with L-pad- 035Ti, maybe they sound better for real. Anyway I enjoy my Ti more than the 066 and can switch back anytime ;)

As for today I've done as advised by Pos. And tracked down my mistake. I've mixed the red and orange wires to L-pads... Too concentrated on solder quality to mind wires color :blink:.

Now: :D

First this is no subtle improvement, even if I claim as usual that I don't know wich mod brought the main gain, XO parts, CC, binding posts, wiring...
It is clearer than another CD player for wich you need to have a listening in front of the speakers, with these new XO you can hear the difference in another room.

Prior to these JBL I had several speakers mods in my past and for some it was for a different sound even sometimes (Quad 11L) for worst and needed more changes. Here the 4313B stayed being 4313B, just better. Everything is clearer, all intruments more separated and easier to listen to.
Verdi, Requiem conducted by Fricsay, a mono record, is less messy as it was, Steely Dan, Peg, I can follow the bass easily, and that bass player is good!
Drum kick is now punchy and clean, and that was already not bad. Low volume listening are more of my taste now.
And so on, I am happy, the work was worth it and give more sound quality gain than I´ve expected.
Do it guys, these speakers still have power under the throttle pedal!

The 4313Ti are just fantastic for old speakers, the 3000€ Kef R500 of a friend were already not as good as the non-CCed' ones, now I wonder if I'll loose a friend for ever ;)

[Malefoda]

Sad I can't edit, new answer.
Side effect, seems it plays less loud, I want to turn it louder almost each time now. Wonder if amp gives less power (impendance changed?) or if biased networks made the speakers less efficient...

[Malefoda]

Faulty amp came in, a Lpad fried...
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37857-JBL-L150-Bypass-LPAD-resistor-values&p=401618&viewfull=1#post401618

so boring... ;)

[Malefoda]

As pointed by POS, from G. Timbers, here:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29651-Century-Gold-active-biamping, one can compensate the woofer roll-off at the bass-reflex resonant frequency. (AFA I understand it).
Here is my take on the same type of boost for the 4313B -http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10616-4313B&p=122565&viewfull=1#post122565- using parametric EQ in Moode Audio on my Raspberry Pi. It's higher in frequency as the 4313B is tuned higher, a tad less boost and a bit steeper curve to match "by the eye" what's on the FR curve of the 4313B. Of course I need to use some attenuation to simulate the attenuation curve in LF.
Maybe I should also cut the boost higher in the lower frequencies, really don't know, it's now 0dB@28Hz and some boost at 30Hz which is quite low for the LE10H... too low? Don't want to damage anything when I'll be testing!

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[Malefoda]

As after a while I'm lost in what I've done in my gear I always write it down. here it is, if that can be of help for anyone, one day; charge-coupled 4313B network/crossover (3113B) and the L-Pad-less version for the 035Ti (so my very own 4313Ti, less attenuation for the 066, just ask and we'll calculate). The last one has to be tested one day... (or not, is it worth the hassle when they sound terrific?). Attenuation values are calculated ones for now, not real life ones. According to the fact a single dB is barely audible they should be very close to spot on values.

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[Malefoda]

Hello guys, I've tried few things on my L-Pads so I've made a sheet to write the settings down. Maybe someone will find it useful. Enjoy the music, Matthieu 4313B L-Pads settings sheet (https://drive.google.com/file/d/12UccWOx8iPHir67F7XHtGQ2Tz5T5HLap/view?usp=share_link)