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DingDing
11-16-2013, 06:23 PM
Hello!

After having played with Guido and Rolf's old 4343B during the weekend I've decided to take the plunge and restore them both aesthetically and functionally, as I will keep these wonderful speakers for years and years to come. As I have never restored something like this, I'm sure there will be lots of questions I hope to get help with.

These were originally grey and black, but Guido or an even earlier owner painted or sprayed them black. Rolf painted the baffle blue and sent them to a professional for a veneer job. Unfortunately the workmanship is poor, and the veneer is coming off at several places, especially the corners, maybe because the veneer has been glued directly onto the glossy black and earlier finish.

I'll most likely only do the ground work, ie taking off the veneer, sanding both baffle and cabinet and send them off to a professional to do the veneer job. To save on costs I'd like to paint or do the baffle in blue myself.

The dust covers does not seem original, as they have no badge that says these are 4343's, so I'll probably build new ones or buy a pair if they ever show up on ebay. This will not be first priority, as I think they look awesome without the covers.

Also, the knobs on both l-pads has some dead spots and they make the associated speaker noisy when turned, so they may need to be replaced. Talked to a fellow Norwegian guy about this, and he suggested trying some contact spray and turning them a bit to see if the dead spots and sparkling sounds that came when turning them went away.

Furthermore, when I removed the 15" to see the crossover, I noticed that one of the screws was not screwed in properly, as the nut that was supposed to sit at the back of the baffle was gone. It looked like something was put into the hole to hold the screw, but it came out very easily and should be fixed.

Basically, my first questions are:

1. Is the original finish American valnut, and are there any suppliers of this I can contact that you guys know of?
2. The original blue color; does anyone have a color code or similar so they can mix the color in a regular paint shop?
3. Is regular paint the way to go to get the baffle blue?
4. If nobody has a paint code or similar, is it possible to buy the original blue color somewhere?
5. Where can I get nuts that dig into the back of the baffle, what are they called in English and what dimensions are the screws so I order the correct one (as I have the original screw).

60640

6. If using contact spray on the pots doesn't work out, what can I buy that is an appropriate and as close to original replacement as possible?

Hope you can help me with some knowledge during this process, as I will not be able to do it without you.

4343
11-16-2013, 08:03 PM
Hello!
...
5. Where can I get nuts that dig into the back of the baffle, what are they called in English and what dimensions are the screws so I order the correct one (as I have the original screw).

60640

6. If using contact spray on the pots doesn't work out, what can I buy that is an appropriate and as close to original replacement as possible?

Hope you can help me with some knowledge during this process, as I will not be able to do it without you.

That is called a "Tee Nut" or "T Nut" and it appears to be a 1/4-20 thread. (One quarter inch diameter with 20 threads-per-inch (TPI) pitch.) The other common size would be "10-32" thread, #10 screw, 32 TPI. A #10 is 3/16" or very close to 5mm. Don't try to use a metric fastener though, it will bind after seeming to go in OK for a while, BTDT.

As for the L-Pads, I think these are very close to the originals, although the shaft length may be different, they sell short or long shafts so get the ones that match what you have.

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-15w-mono-1-shaft-8-ohm--260-250

I like to use a little beefier part, so would get the 50W version in the short version:

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-50w-mono-3-8-shaft-8-ohm--260-252

For all of them start here:

https://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=l-pad&sitesearch=true

DeOxit fader lube spray has almost always brought scratchy L-Pads back to proper operation for me, be sure to get the lube version so the corrosion does not come back...

Odd
11-17-2013, 01:32 AM
T Nut. Is "islagsmutter" in Norwegian. Can be purchased at some hardware stores. Maybe they have only metric. Switch to new Allen (Unbrako) screws.
JBL blue, see here. (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34471-DIY-JBL-4344-project/page6)

Use Google to search the Lansing Heritage forum

christo
11-17-2013, 08:11 AM
I suggest you read this thread as it covers the wood working/veneering part of your restoration. The hardest part of the veering process is the removal of the original veneer.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?21498-Alive-And-Well-In-My-JBL-Shop

If you decide to do the veneering yourself the best advice I can give is donít use a contact cement type glue it is a PIA as positioning the veneer of the surface is a one shot deal. Using a glue like Titebond II - Cross-linking polyvinyl acetate is an absolute pleasure as position the veneer is easy. I have used most of the techniques in this thread, they easy to implement and they work.

Here is a site you can browse for veneer and then source closer to home www.oakwoodveneer.com

DingDing
11-17-2013, 01:42 PM
Thanks to all of you who have replied so far. :)


That is called a "Tee Nut" or "T Nut" and it appears to be a 1/4-20 thread. (One quarter inch diameter with 20 threads-per-inch (TPI) pitch.) The other common size would be "10-32" thread, #10 screw, 32 TPI. A #10 is 3/16" or very close to 5mm. Don't try to use a metric fastener though, it will bind after seeming to go in OK for a while, BTDT.

I believe you're correct about 1/4-20 when measuring the screw and counting threads over 1". I'll let you guys know the dimensions when I've tried.

60642


As for the L-Pads, I think these are very close to the originals, although the shaft length may be different, they sell short or long shafts so get the ones that match what you have.

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-15w-mono-1-shaft-8-ohm--260-250

I like to use a little beefier part, so would get the 50W version in the short version:

https://www.parts-express.com/speaker-l-pad-attenuator-50w-mono-3-8-shaft-8-ohm--260-252

For all of them start here:

https://www.parts-express.com/Search.aspx?keyword=l-pad&sitesearch=true

DeOxit fader lube spray has almost always brought scratchy L-Pads back to proper operation for me, be sure to get the lube version so the corrosion does not come back...

Great! I'll try DeOxit fader lube spray first. It doesn't seem like there are any Norwegian suppliers but I'll get the product on ebay. Looks like this is the one you're talking about.

60643


T Nut. Is "islagsmutter" in Norwegian. Can be purchased at some hardware stores. Maybe they have only metric. Switch to new Allen (Unbrako) screws.
JBL blue, see here. (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34471-DIY-JBL-4344-project/page6)

Use Google to search the Lansing Heritage forum

Hi,

I visited all the local hardware and furniture stores but nobody had them. Going to buy them from ebay as they are dirt cheap.

Great thread on the JBL blue! Read through the entire thread and (posting here for later reference) it seems like RAL 5001, which is a European color std. is very close to the original, so going with that.

Thank you for the tip! Will do that.


I suggest you read this thread as it covers the wood working/veneering part of your restoration. The hardest part of the veering process is the removal of the original veneer.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?21498-Alive-And-Well-In-My-JBL-Shop

If you decide to do the veneering yourself the best advice I can give is donít use a contact cement type glue it is a PIA as positioning the veneer of the surface is a one shot deal. Using a glue like Titebond II - Cross-linking polyvinyl acetate is an absolute pleasure as position the veneer is easy. I have used most of the techniques in this thread, they easy to implement and they work.

Here is a site you can browse for veneer and then source closer to home www.oakwoodveneer.com (http://www.oakwoodveneer.com)

Wow, that was an extremely helpful thread, and wow that guy knows what he is doing. I might try to do it as it's a great skill to have, but if all fails miserably I'll let the professionals do it. :)

Great supplier of veneer, thanks. They ship worldwide, so probably going with them as it's hard to source here according to Norwegian DIY'ers.

Fantastic, now I only need to do some shopping, wait for the materials and let the project start.

I'll post pics as the project develops. I have to warn you all about the risk of foul language though, haha.

DingDing
11-18-2013, 10:31 AM
Hi, got a few more questions.



Does anyone have a file with the original measurements for the original grill plates which could be used?
Where (on the internets) could I go to have JBL 4343 grill plates printed in high quality? I assume that you DIY'ers don't do this at home?
What are the plastic nuts that attach the grill to the speaker called in English, please? Need these as most of them are gone.



If nobody has a file for the grill plates, I can get the measurements for the 4343 grill plates (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?1899-Size-of-4343-Grill-Plates) from this thread and make a file in Photoshop which I'll upload for everyone to use.

hjames
11-18-2013, 11:03 AM
Pretty sure I had a pair of logo/foilcals made for my 4341 grills by ebay member sign--shop

http://myworld.ebay.com/sign--shop?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

I think he sells the mounting stuff for them as well




Hi, got a few more questions.



Does anyone have a file with the original measurements for the original grill plates which could be used?
Where (on the internets) could I go to have JBL 4343 grill plates printed in high quality? I assume that you DIY'ers don't do this at home?
What are the plastic nuts that attach the grill to the speaker called in English, please? Need these as most of them are gone.



If nobody has a file for the grill plates, I can get the measurements for the 4343 grill plates (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?1899-Size-of-4343-Grill-Plates) from this thread and make a file in Photoshop which I'll upload for everyone to use.

DingDing
11-18-2013, 11:22 AM
Thank you, hjames, not exactly cheap, but they look very good and attach magnetically according to his listing. Seems like he makes them from aluminum.

Posting a screenshot for reference if anybody else find this in the future and his listing is gone.
http://i.imgur.com/DfzH2H0.png

And yes, he also has grill pegs for vintage JBL speakers.

http://i.imgur.com/Gw40TrH.png

more10
11-18-2013, 01:09 PM
You can improve by replacing T-nuts with hurricane nuts. In a hurricane nut is called rampamuff.

DogBox
11-18-2013, 04:08 PM
Hi DingDing,

When you came to the "Technical Help" section of the forum, did you see '4343 Information' at the very top of the page? EXTENSIVE info gathered by
'hjames'. Heather has found all the good stuff on these monitors. I also suggest going to the library and getting the Professional Series spec's - a 4 page brochure type Specification manual. Also the Crossover Network 3143 for wiring [if you have to go that far, but I think Guido went through it!]
Search this forum and the DIY Forum. There is LOTS to be found if you look! Enjoy and "take your time"... you'll end up with a fine speaker!


DogBox

mech986
11-18-2013, 06:21 PM
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/JBL-Monitor-Grill-Badges-4300-series-NICE-/18/!Bvp3qiwCGk~$(KGrHqR,!hgEv1+0FNgDBMF,SynNpg~~_12.J PG

Yep, those would work and the quality is quite good. You can see there is a "make offer" option, so ask for a package price, maybe you can get them a bit lower, and let him know its for Rolf's speakers, might help.

Bart

DingDing
11-19-2013, 10:48 AM
You can improve by replacing T-nuts with hurricane nuts. In a hurricane nut is called rampamuff.

Thank you. If I didn't already buy a set of 32 new t-nuts and allan key screws I would go with your advice, but I had already pulled the trigger on those.


Hi DingDing,

When you came to the "Technical Help" section of the forum, did you see '4343 Information' at the very top of the page? EXTENSIVE info gathered by
'hjames'. Heather has found all the good stuff on these monitors. I also suggest going to the library and getting the Professional Series spec's - a 4 page brochure type Specification manual. Also the Crossover Network 3143 for wiring [if you have to go that far, but I think Guido went through it!]
Search this forum and the DIY Forum. There is LOTS to be found if you look! Enjoy and "take your time"... you'll end up with a fine speaker!

DogBox

Hi DogBox,

I've spent quite a few hours reading through that thread and the resources it links to now. To be honest, some of it, and especially everything that has to do with passive x-over designs go way, way above my head. However, this is a fine forum with a lot of great content, and I apologize about not reading more before I started posing all these questions, as I see that many of them have been answered thoroughly in the past. It was a case of excitement about the loudspeaker restoration project and information paralysis as there is so much here. ;)

I'll take on your advice and do this in baby steps. Looks like doing the veneer can be quite the task, but have found a lot of advice against the common pitfalls and what products that yield the best result.

I thought my 4430's were good, but 4343 raise the bar even further! They sound absolutely spectacular! I'll look into another active crossover than the original 5235 with 4343 cards (which I use now) to see if I can push them even further! But as you say; take my time, and first things first; the restoration job, haha!



http://i.ebayimg.com/t/JBL-Monitor-Grill-Badges-4300-series-NICE-/18/!Bvp3qiwCGk~$(KGrHqR,!hgEv1+0FNgDBMF,SynNpg~~_12.J PG

Yep, those would work and the quality is quite good. You can see there is a "make offer" option, so ask for a package price, maybe you can get them a bit lower, and let him know its for Rolf's speakers, might help.

Bart

Hello, and thank you for the tip. I'll probably buy two new l-lpad signs and a pair of signs for the grills as well as a bunch of those grill pegs to hold them in place, and will write him an email asking for a discount if placing an order for so many items. I'll mention that they're Rolf's speakers, but I don't want to make it look like I take advantage of his good reputation with the community either.

hjames
11-19-2013, 10:59 AM
Hello again, DingDing!

A couple of us have worked through various active crossovers and maybe this could save you some time and money.
I started with the JBL UREI crossover and wound up using the Ashly XR1001 crossover.

Its fairly quiet, it has knobs you can set the crossover point with, instead of having to build little circuit cards like the 5234,
and its pretty affordable. I used one with my 4341 Monitors, I know Phil (BMWCCA) uses one with his 4345 Monitors, and I know some other folks have had good luck with them as well.

Oh - they are reasonably priced, too!

Good luck with your musical fun!




Thank you. If I didn't already buy a set of 32 new t-nuts and allan key screws I would go with your advice, but I had already pulled the trigger on those.

Hi DogBox,
I thought my 4430's were good, but 4343 raise the bar even further! They sound absolutely spectacular! I'll look into another active crossover than the original 5235 with 4343 cards (which I use now) to see if I can push them even further! But as you say; take my time, and first things first; the restoration job, haha!

DingDing
11-19-2013, 12:46 PM
Hello again, DingDing!

A couple of us have worked through various active crossovers and maybe this could save you some time and money.
I started with the JBL UREI crossover and wound up using the Ashly XR1001 crossover.

Its fairly quiet, it has knobs you can set the crossover point with, instead of having to build little circuit cards like the 5234,
and its pretty affordable. I used one with my 4341 Monitors, I know Phil (BMWCCA) uses one with his 4345 Monitors, and I know some other folks have had good luck with them as well.

Oh - they are reasonably priced, too!

Good luck with your musical fun!

Hi again, hjames

Thank you for your input.

Yes, Ashly XR1001 came on the radar yesterday as I was browsing through a lot of posts, including yours, on the forums. Found a used unit on a Norwegian site for second hand gear, contacted the seller and actually bought it a short while ago based on all the praise it got here, haha. It'll come by mail in one of the following days. Will try to use it to do active crossover with 4430 as well!

Have been thinking about getting something like miniDSP 4x10 HD for 4430 earlier and do it all in the digital domain, but seems like XR1001 is a good starting point, and since it's fairly quiet, it's all good. :) Very nice to have the added flexibility of the crossover knobs.

Next up might be to try those Crown amps for the woofers, since there seems to be some controversy regarding their performance on the highs and midrange. New amps have to wait until later though because I've exceeded my budget by quite a lot with buying the 4343's, but couldn't resist the opportunity as 4 way JBL studio monitors are few and far between here in Norway it seems.

Odd
11-19-2013, 02:28 PM
Good to see another enthusiast with 4-way JBL monitor.
There is more than one would think of them here in Norway.

Mine has diy enclosure with 2235, 2123, 2450, 2405 and CC crossover designed by 4313B
Crossover was a big improvement. Thanks to 4313B.

BMWCCA
11-19-2013, 06:37 PM
Next up might be to try those Crown amps for the woofers, since there seems to be some controversy regarding their performance on the highs and midrange.

Can't imagine where you got that idea. I know Scotty Fitlin (R.I.P.) once talked about how the Crown Studio Reference might not be the best choice for full-range use but the PS400 and PS200 (and DC300A-II and D150A-II, and certainly the D75A) work quite well over the full range. I've been using them for years.

You might be confusing the currently popular use of the Chinese-made Crown XLS and XLi series amps for subwoofer duty. Mostly those are amps designed for PA and DJ use, not hi-fi. 700-watts @ 8-ohms bridged for under $300 is tempting but not necessarily musical. :dont-know:

DogBox
11-19-2013, 08:02 PM
...another enthusiast with 4-way JBL monitor...Mine has diy enclosure with 2235, 2123, 2450, 2405 and CC crossover designed by 4313B.Crossover was a big improvement. Thanks to 4313B.

Now, there's an interesting combination of drivers.. If you don't mind me asking [being a little "off-thread sort-of"] did you just have those drivers in mind when you went to build? or, were you advised which ones were more suited to go together? I noticed the 2" Compression driver... How well does that "blend-in"...?
In keeping to 4343, I am interested to hear your comments...

Many Thanks,
DogBox

Odd
11-20-2013, 01:54 AM
Now, there's an interesting combination of drivers.. If you don't mind me asking [being a little "off-thread sort-of"] did you just have those drivers in mind when you went to build? or, were you advised which ones were more suited to go together? I noticed the 2" Compression driver... How well does that "blend-in"...?
In keeping to 4343, I am interested to hear your comments...

Many Thanks,
DogBox


There have been changes over the years. Today's edition is inspired by 4313Bs work with DIY 4345 in this thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project)
Active filter for 2235. They now play very well. No more changes.

60676

DingDing
11-20-2013, 11:28 PM
Good to see another enthusiast with 4-way JBL monitor.
There is more than one would think of them here in Norway.

Mine has diy enclosure with 2235, 2123, 2450, 2405 and CC crossover designed by 4313B
Crossover was a big improvement. Thanks to 4313B.

Just to clear out where I'm "coming from" and my level of experience. :) I've been studying in Oslo for the past three years and due to living arrangements have not been able to have a proper stereo system. However, I was deeply into headphones as a substitute, but it's just not the same thing as a proper stereo.

Every time I visited my older brother, I felt sorry when going back home to my stacks and rows of headphones, haha. He has a pair of Altec Lansing Model 19, and after my studies were over, I relocated and nearly got a pair of Tannoy DC10T, but big brother pitched and adviced me to get a pair of vintage JBL monitors. And as a good little brother is supposed to do, I listened and got 4430, was amazed at how great they sounded and this all began. :)

Your loudspeakers look great, and I bet they sound the part too. :) I presume you built them yourself? If so, what a great job!


Can't imagine where you got that idea. I know Scotty Fitlin (R.I.P.) once talked about how the Crown Studio Reference might not be the best choice for full-range use but the PS400 and PS200 (and DC300A-II and D150A-II, and certainly the D75A) work quite well over the full range. I've been using them for years.

You might be confusing the currently popular use of the Chinese-made Crown XLS and XLi series amps for subwoofer duty. Mostly those are amps designed for PA and DJ use, not hi-fi. 700-watts @ 8-ohms bridged for under $300 is tempting but not necessarily musical. :dont-know:

Hi,
Been reading a little bit about using Crowns in hifi systems on a Norwegian site for audiophiles and that's where I got the idea. You may very well be right about the models. As you can see from my answer to Odd, my own experience is lacking. Thank you for the advice on Crown models. Will read more about it here on the forums.

I'm always intrigued about products that doesn't cost a fortune and come from companies with years of experience.

yggdrasil
11-20-2013, 11:38 PM
Basically, my first questions are:

1. Is the original finish American valnut, and are there any suppliers of this I can contact that you guys know of?

PrÝv: Oslo Finerfabrikk AS Ė 23 00 61 60

DingDing
11-20-2013, 11:59 PM
PrÝv: Oslo Finerfabrikk AS Ė 23 00 61 60

Thank you! I see on their product page (http://www.oslofiner.no/index.asp?DocID=44&Lang=1) (Norwegian) that they have some American Walnut which is 0.6 mm thick. It doesn't say if it is paper backed or not, and I'm under the assumption that the best result is achieved by using paper backed veneer. I'll contact them and hear what they have to say about this particular application.

Aiming to recreate the conditions and take advantage of saeman's shared experience on this job, as is described in the quoted post below. He has many scattered posts about doing veneer, and it seems like he has perfected his method for long lasting and good results.


Hi Widget: I can't show you any work that's 20 years old but I have been using this method for a long time with good results. For what it's worth, here's a few comments on problems I have encountered.

1. I have used paper back veneer, bubble free and phenolic backed veneers. Paper backed is the easiest to work with as it is thinner material. Phenolic backed resembles formica in overall thickness. It bonds well but since it is thicker it's harder to make sure there are no voids or bad bond spots.

2. I have talked a lot about buying some kind of commercial heating iron and never have. My wife's clothes iron works great and she hates to use it anyway. Her current iron used to be teflon coated but I've worn patches of the teflon off pressing veneer.

3. Temp setting is about 1/3 of max for most household irons, or about 160 degrees max. Too much heat and you will melt and puddle the glue under the veneer - TROUBLE - if this happens you need to turn the heat way way down and slowly dry the glue again. All you need is enough heat to re-activate the glue to allow both glued surfaces to bond (just like two surfaces coated with comtact cement.

4. Going over the veneer with a hot iron is not enough. More pressure is required to ensure a solid bond. Heat about 1 square foot at a time and immediately (while the surface is still damn hot to the palm of your hand) roll over that area with a 4" veneer roller applying all the pressure you can. Roll slowly and listen for any crackling sounds. Roll with the grain and then roll side to side against the grain. If you hear crackling it indicates that the veneer is lifting. Heat - roll - heat - roll, until there is no crackling to be heard. After doing the whole surface go aroung all edges again. Let that panel/side sit for several hours and then trim off excess veneer. Then go over the whole surface again slowly with the roller and listen for any crackling. After sitting for a while if the bond is not good it will lift. If this problem occurs hit it with the heat again. I have always used Titebond II and have heated and reactivated as long as two days after laying the veneer.

5. After you have trimmed off excess veneer - take your thumb and fan the entire edge (like you would shuffle thru pages in a book or a deck of cards) and listen for spots where the veneer is loose around the edge. Heat and roll any you find.

6. Bubbles under the veneer usually happen when too much heat is applied. With some practice everyone using this method will find their own settings. Not enough heat and your veneer will be crackling under the roller until your supper is cold. TOO MUCH heat will melt the glue and quite often cause bubbles. If you have a bubble that persists, it can be sliced open using a thin blade modeling knife. Let any trapped air escape, roll the hell out of it and apply less heat in that area to get a bond.

7. Applying the glue - I apply 2 (sometimes 3) coats to each surface using a 4" paint roller. Most veneer manufacturers recommend a 6 to 8 mil glue coating between veneer and substrate. If you skimp and apply only one coat you'll some day, after a big change inhumidity, find your veneer lifting from the surface. Titebond II turns clear when it's dry to the touch. When the first coat is dry you can apply the second/third coat. You can wait as long as a couple of days to apply your veneer but I have had the best results after waiting just an hour or two after the last coat is dry. It will appear dry but you will be able to penetrate the glue with your finger nail and it will feel a bit like a hard rubber surface. If you wait a day or more the glue will be HARD and even though heat will reactivate and bond, I have gotten the best results with the rubber like surface.

That's a lot of rambling and babbling but maybe my techniques will help some of you achieve the results you're looking for. I've had a lot of frustration doing veneer work but have worked out the bugs and have been getting good results.

Buy some veneer and go for it. Rick http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif

DingDing
11-21-2013, 02:26 AM
PrÝv: Oslo Finerfabrikk AS – 23 00 61 60 I shipped them an email asking if they had paper backed veneer in case I needed to research their answer before replying with more questions.

For Norwegians that might come across this post in the future, they do have some paper backed American walnut veneer, and the product is called Decoflex and measures 0,6 x 2500 x 1240 mm and is only sold in sheets. However, Oslo Finerfabrikk does not sell directly to private persons, so you need to go through a retailer like http://www.thaugland.no/

I wonder if 0.6 mm is thick enough?

DogBox
11-21-2013, 04:13 PM
There have been changes over the years. Today's edition is inspired by 4313Bs work with DIY 4345 in this thread (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27199-DIY-quot-4345-quot-Project)
Active filter for 2235. They now play very well. No more changes.
Hey Odd,
Very nicely done! Gotta love those lenses!! I must ask though, You don't find the 'ports' a bit small? you would have to have plenty of length to get them to work - wouldn't you?
Did you build the cabinets from scratch? But, back to the drivers:
Is that what you "planned on using" from the start? It is certainly a 'different' combination to "sum" together...?

DingDing's got the right help following Saeman... can't go wrong there!


DogBox

yggdrasil
11-21-2013, 11:39 PM
0.6mm is enough. I got some walnut (no paperback) directly from Oslo Finerfabrikk a few years ago, but as you say - invoiced to my company.

DingDing
11-22-2013, 09:41 PM
0.6mm is enough. I got some walnut (no paperback) directly from Oslo Finerfabrikk a few years ago, but as you say - invoiced to my company.

Thank you. Is your company related to the industry? I've got a sole proprietorship which operates in another industry, but if I can order directly from them using that, I'll do it as the retailer they forwarded me to does not respond to my email.

Decoflex details
I got the gluing instructions from the importer (Oslo Finerfabrikk), and in case anyone would like to read it, here it is.

60690

According to the instructions one should not use any water based glues.

60691

Water based glue?
saeman uses Tite-Bond II which it's possible to get here in Norway. However, I'm not sure if this is water based or not. Tried reading the specifications on the manufacturer's website (http://www.titebond.com/product.aspx?id=2ef3e95d-48d2-43bc-8e1b-217a38930fa2), but did not grow any wiser.

So, does anyone know if this is water based or not? On the website, it says it is easy to clean with water, which makes me suspicious that it's water based.

christo
11-23-2013, 10:25 AM
Tite-Bond II is water based and I have used it with great success with 10 mil paper backed veneer. Not sure why the manufacturer only recommends a solvent based glue.

In my experience I applied three coats to each surface then used an iron to reactive the glue and I have found a roller is not required as long as you work from the center out. I'll never go back to a solvent based glue.

The attached picture shows all the tools I used.
60696

DingDing
11-23-2013, 12:18 PM
Thanks christo

Dang, seems like I'll have to find a substitute for the Decoflex veneer then, as they specifically recommend not using water based glue... :(

yggdrasil, did you defy the recommendation of Decoflex and still use water based?

I may have to contact the manufacturer to know why they recommend against it. Maybe they treated the wood with a compound which will react with water based glues...

christo
11-23-2013, 02:03 PM
Hereís a picture of the 4344 clones I built using saemanís veneer techniques. I cut the front baffle trim from a 1x6 plank of walnut and glued them to the cabinet, used a router to get it flush with the side panels then applied the veneer.

The picture below shows the trim applied and cut flush to the cabinet prior to the veneer application
60701

Once the veneer was applied I then cut the 30 degree angle with the router. The trim and side panels blend virtually seamlessly, veneering with Tite-Bond II is very easy.
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DingDing
11-23-2013, 03:27 PM
Beautifully done, christo! Thank you for sharing your pictures and experience. Been wondering how to get the front profile (plank) to blend in well.

Just to make it 100 % clear: You didn't apply veneer to the plank after the 30 degree cut was made, right? It is solid walnut, and you just cut it flush with the veneer? Have to ask because the end result looks like you applied veneer, since it looks so seamless. :)

If I manage to do the finish properly there might be a DIY project based on other people's drawings in the future.

Mostlydiy
11-24-2013, 03:14 AM
Christo, wow, amazing looking speakers you got there.

/Mostly

christo
11-24-2013, 12:22 PM
Yes the veneer goes on right over the walnut trim.

In the picture below you can see the side panel veneered right over the trim and the trim has not had the 30 degree edge cut at this point.

60707

I used a router bit with a roller bearing guide. In the picture below I have just finished cutting the angle in the trim. The scrap wood at each end is used to allow the router bit to clear the end box. I used this technique on two opposing sides.

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On the remaining two sides you have to use a straight edge to control the path of the router bit as each end now has a 30 degree angle in the trim.

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DingDing
11-24-2013, 01:23 PM
Christo, thank you again for your great advice on how to get such a great result with the front trim! As you can see here, these doesn't look nearly as good as yours in their condition, and it's all about the details imo.

60713

These were probably put on after the veneer was done, which was exactly what I was going to do, and then use something on the seam to make it look less apparent, but with your help they'll look much better.

Also, these were originally the grey ones and the front profile doesn't cover 100 % as can be seen from the inside, so they are coming off with the aid of a heat gun :)

http://i.imgur.com/Yi1xwoo.png

By all the help I've received from you and others in this thread I'm growing confident that I'll get these wonderful sounding speakers in great condition. :)

I truly admire you and everyone that can do such a good job on these speakers. Kind of envious to be honest! ;D

yggdrasil
11-24-2013, 11:28 PM
Thank you. Is your company related to the industry? I've got a sole proprietorship which operates in another industry, but if I can order directly from them using that, I'll do it as the retailer they forwarded me to does not respond to my email.

I'm into software development, so the company is far out of the industry. Worth a try.

DingDing
11-25-2013, 02:19 AM
Currently waiting for some DeOxit Faderlube for battling the dead spots in the l-pad pots, but yesterday I turned each knob 10-15 times from zero to max with the system turned off, and it went away, maybe I got some corrosion out of the way. However, I noticed that one of the pots were much less resistant than the others, so lube is probably a good idea anyways. :)


I'm into software development, so the company is far out of the industry. Worth a try.

Cool! I'll give it a shot as soon as I have confirmed with the manufacturer that I can still use Tite-Bond II even if it is water based.

More on veneer
Looked into oakwoodveneer and shipping alone is almost $200(!), yikes!

To those of you who get your veneer from oakwood, 10 mil paper backed premium is what I want, right? In the youtube video below a representative from the company has a little presentation on the different qualities, and 22 mil seems a bit thick(?) The thickness given does not include the actual veneer, only the paper, so 10 mil is actually thicker in total.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk8xxCyfXA4

macaroonie
11-25-2013, 03:20 AM
You might find UK veneer suppliers easier to deal with

http://www.woodveneeruk.co.uk/products.php?cat=Iron%20on%20Veneer

DingDing
11-25-2013, 04:45 AM
^ Thanks, looks like that may be a better option, but have to do some measurements to be sure that each sheet covers the whole depth of the speaker.

More on Decoflex & water based glues
Reply from manufacturer of Decoflex Veneer, and here she goes


Hello,

I see in your manual for decoflex that you recommend against water based glue.

I want to restore some vintage loudspeakers with American walnut, and are following a DIY forum for the process. However, all the people there use a water based glue to attach their veneer to the substrate.

Why should I not use a water based glue with your decoflex, please?

I'm very tempted to defy your manual and use water based, but what can happen if I use water based, please?



Hello

We recommend contact glue and why not water based glue

1) veneer might become wavy when it comes in touch with water

2) allow enough time until the glue is completele dried out otherwise after lacquering there might appear cracks in the veneer after some time

So it doesn't seem that problematic as potential waves will be ironed out anyways. Looks like he is implying that I can go ahead, but should wait for the adhesive to dry before going on with oiling (laquering = oiling?)... Sent him a follow up, he won't get rid of me that easily :D

macaroonie
11-25-2013, 05:52 AM
There is an adhesive film readily available for veneering.

http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/category_Glue_Film_and_Adhesives_1.htm

Some nice big walnut sheets from the same people

http://www.originalmarquetry.co.uk/category_Wood_Veneers_5.htm

christo
11-25-2013, 12:30 PM
^ Thanks, looks like that may be a better option, but have to do some measurements to be sure that each sheet covers the whole depth of the speaker.

More on Decoflex & water based glues
Reply from manufacturer of Decoflex Veneer, and here she goes





So it doesn't seem that problematic as potential waves will be ironed out anyways. Looks like he is implying that I can go ahead, but should wait for the adhesive to dry before going on with oiling (laquering = oiling?)... Sent him a follow up, he won't get rid of me that easily :D

I would say based upon the manufactures response that using the veneering technique outlined in this forum will work fine. Yes you are using a water based glue but it is dry when you place the veneer on the surface allowing you to reposition it at will. Once you apply the heat with the iron it takes on all the characteristics of contact-cement, it will not move. And this is how the waves the manufactured is referring to are avoided. I think their concern is that if you didn’t let the glue dry first there would be issues.

With the technique outlined in this forum both surfaces are covered with 2 to 3 thin coats of Tite-Bond II with each coat being dry before applying the next. By dry I mean you can run your hand over the surface and it won’t stick. The glue itself is still soft which is fine. I found that with using a fan to assist with the drying of the glue you can apply 3 coats to each surface of two panels (i.e. four surfaces) and iron them down in an hour. You have to then wait 24 hour before trimming the veneer.

FYI – The surfaces you are gluing the veneer to must be completely level if not the imperfections will be visible through the veneer.

macaroonie
11-25-2013, 01:32 PM
^^^^^ Agreed. This is good info.

DingDing
11-25-2013, 05:15 PM
christo and macaroonie, thank you very much for the help.

I'll take a chance with Decoflex. They are probably advising against water to avoid any liability over poor results, for the reasons outlined by you by not letting the glue dry up first. I've been a bit weary about using Decoflex, as that is what has been used on these before, but the problem might lie with the process, not the product.

Now that the veneer choice has been made it's time for some pictures of the loudspeakers as they are now. I'll set the camera up and do it during daylight tomorrow.

Sanding them down is probably the biggest task, as they have a thick layer of paint underneath the veneer (pulled a panel, which came off very easily, to see).

As I publish pictures of the process, please post all of your constructive criticism, as it is easier to fix potential problems now rather than later. :)

DingDing
11-28-2013, 04:24 AM
I've got suppliers for everything besides the walnut plank now. Have tried a few places like Bauhaus, but unfortunately nobody seems to supply walnut planks.

The restoration won't start until all these things are at my disposal, as veneering have to wait until I've got the plank.

Any ideas on where to get these in correct dimensions?

Odd
11-28-2013, 05:24 AM
http://www.billingstadtrelast.no/?s=forside

DingDing
11-28-2013, 06:53 AM
http://www.billingstadtrelast.no/?s=forside

Thanks, I just spoke with the owner on the phone, he was very helpful and proposed using one which measured 21x70mm as a basis and splitting it to the correct dimensions. :)

DingDing
11-29-2013, 02:26 AM
Got the faderlube and bolts+nuts yesterday. I'll be having an excess supply of t-nuts and bolts (allen key). If anybody needs a few, you can have them you cover shipping (through paypal). Will be sent from Norway.