Array 1400 Using Stock SAM1HF, LE14H-3, and passive 2-way Crossover?

[reconed]

I have started an Array 1400 clone project. I have a pair of SAM1HFs and LE14H-3s, and I would consider making something like the SAM12x passive crossover but for use with LE14H-3. That may be good enough (for me) along with the stock SAM1HF crossovers. And less expensive and quicker to get up and running.

Has anybody tried using the SAM1HF with its stock passive crossover with a modified SAM12X or home made SAM12X-type crossover for use with LE14H-3's for the woofers?

I have collected a lot of info about the array 1400 clone projects here. I have found the schematics for the array 1400 crossovers. I was thinking of making the array 1400 low frequency crossover and adding a high-pass to feed the SAM1HF. Would this be worthwhile?

Anyone have schematics for the SAM12X crossover?

Another quick and dirty approach would be to use an active crossover and bi-amp. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

The goal is to make a high quality speaker for 2-channel audio.

[Mr. Widget]

With the SAM1HF and a LE14H-3 you are so close to having a magnificent speaker, to go "quick and dirty" with the networks would be so wrong! The difference a network makes isn't trivial, it is critical!


Widget

[Robh3606]

Just build stock 1400 networks or charge couple them for the 435 and 045. To bi-amp you need custom voltage drives that Greg Timbers has already been kind enough to provide. I built my 1400 Array's from scratch using Be components. Best thing to do is use the stock network with that component set. Rob:)

[reconed]

I guess there are really no shortcuts, and I don't want to compromise the performance.

I think this is the correct schematic for the stock Array 1400 crossovers.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10643-1400-Array (post #10)

I've been putting together a parts list and finding the components.

I saw a picture of the Array 1400 LF crossover which uses air-core inductors. In pictures of your (Robh3606) crossover I noticed some ferrite core inductors. How important is the core type for the large inductors in these crossovers? Is low DCR more important? The 14 gauge air core inductors available have a DCR of about 0.52 ohms, and the schematic shows a DCR of 0.45 ohms, is the difference significant enough to go to 13 gauge wire inductors or switch to ferrite core inductors with lower DCR?


Just build stock 1400 networks or charge couple them for the 435 and 045. To bi-amp you need custom voltage drives that Greg Timbers has already been kind enough to provide. I built my 1400 Array's from scratch using Be components. Best thing to do is use the stock network with that component set. Rob:)

[Robh3606]

I saw a picture of the Array 1400 LF crossover which uses air-core inductors. In pictures of your (Robh3606) crossover I noticed some ferrite core inductors. How important is the core type for the large inductors in these crossovers? Is low DCR more important? The 14 gauge air core inductors available have a DCR of about 0.52 ohms, and the schematic shows a DCR of 0.45 ohms, is the difference significant enough to go to 13 gauge wire inductors or switch to ferrite core inductors with lower DCR?

I went looking for air cores at the time and they were expensive. I have used ferrite and not had any issues. I mean how much power are you planning on using as far as listening levels?? I would definitely try to stay below the max DCR numbers. Do you have any crossover design software?? You can always see what effects changes in DCR will have. If it's only 10 mohms I would get to concerned. I got ERSE laminated I cores


http://www.erseaudio.com/ELC54-18-4300


Look at the difference in price also look at the power ratings

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/XQCoils14Gauge/EAV77-14-4500

Rob:)

[JuniorJBL]

I tried the XO's from my SAM1HF's but that only lasted about 20 minutes. I then used an Ashly 1001 and a pair of amps while I ordered crossover parts to build a passive crossover.

I did Air cores on the MF and HF and ferrite on the 14.


Truly that XO from the stock SAM's are more tuned towards speech and impact not music.

JMO

[reconed]

Thanks Rob - I appreciate your advice on this. I'm sure the power handling would be fine either way. I don't want to add any audible distortion if it results from the ferrite core saturation or hysteresis. I have no experience to judge whether that would be audible. The 14 ga air core inductors are expensive and still have higher DCR. I think it really takes 13 ga wire to meet the DCR spec. The data sheet for the I cores states <8000 hz woofer applications.


I went looking for air cores at the time and they were expensive. I have used ferrite and not had any issues. I mean how much power are you planning on using as far as listening levels?? I would definitely try to stay below the max DCR numbers. Do you have any crossover design software?? You can always see what effects changes in DCR will have. If it's only 10 mohms I would get to concerned. I got ERSE laminated I cores



http://www.erseaudio.com/ELC54-18-4300


Look at the difference in price also look at the power ratings

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/XQCoils14Gauge/EAV77-14-4500

Rob:)

[reconed]

I tried the XO's from my SAM1HF's but that only lasted about 20 minutes. I then used an Ashly 1001 and a pair of amps while I ordered crossover parts to build a passive crossover.

I did Air cores on the MF and HF and ferrite on the 14.


Truly that XO from the stock SAM's are more tuned towards speech and impact not music.

JMO

Thanks for letting me know - I have not heard them since I don't have an active xo and biamp setup to test. I will get going on the array 1400 crossovers.

[reconed]

Rob - I think these coils could do the trick, 600W.
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/SuperQCoils14Gauge/ESQ55-14-4300


I went looking for air cores at the time and they were expensive. I have used ferrite and not had any issues. I mean how much power are you planning on using as far as listening levels?? I would definitely try to stay below the max DCR numbers. Do you have any crossover design software?? You can always see what effects changes in DCR will have. If it's only 10 mohms I would get to concerned. I got ERSE laminated I cores


http://www.erseaudio.com/ELC54-18-4300


Look at the difference in price also look at the power ratings

http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/XQCoils14Gauge/EAV77-14-4500

Rob:)

[JuniorJBL]

Here is the thread to my XO's

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33003-Junior-s-1400-Array-XO-s

[reconed]

Of course! - I have thoroughly studied that thread already. Nice looking job. Did you finish the cabs and mount the xo's in full view? Pictures of the final product?



Here is the thread to my XO's

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33003-Junior-s-1400-Array-XO-s

[JuniorJBL]

They have since evolved with 476Mg's and 045Be's.

They sound so good that I have not bothered to change a thing other than they are off the floor about 6 more inches.

I will build cabs at some point but the theater is next in-line for some upgrades. I will most likely put the XO's to where they can be seen but out of the way, maybe integrate them on top of the cab.......:hmm:

Anyways as most here have said, the 1400 Array platform is just a no-brainer. The vertical horn is truly awesome and makes a very large difference over traditional horizontal horns IMHO. ;)

[4313B]

I'm really glad to see yet another fan of this DIY solution! :yes:

[DavidF]

I'm really glad to see yet another fan of this DIY solution! :yes:

Second that thought. I have had my pair in daily use for a while now. We three are getting along very well, thank you.

[reconed]

Second that thought. I have had my pair in daily use for a while now. We three are getting along very well, thank you.

Thanks for sharing your project. It's very encouraging. I'm putting together a parts list for the crossover networks, and I noticed you used air-core inductors in the low frequency crossover. What are the specs for these and where did you get them? I'm considering the Erse SuperQ ferrite cores.

[DavidF]

Thanks for sharing your project. It's very encouraging. I'm putting together a parts list for the crossover networks, and I noticed you used air-core inductors in the low frequency crossover. What are the specs for these and where did you get them? I'm considering the Erse SuperQ ferrite cores.

I bought 12mH [edit, that's 12 awg] coils directly from Erse. I looked to see if they still listed them before posting but did not find them. They were an oversupply closeout wound to 4 & 6 mH that I unwound to the right value. I used a meter I have on hand to confirm the amount of wire to remove. They were both below the ohm spec.

I would consider using the steel laminate core over the ferrite if you go with cored coils. I have used the Erse 16awg laminates with good results.

[reconed]

I guess there are really no shortcuts, and I don't want to compromise the performance.

I think this is the correct schematic for the stock Array 1400 crossovers.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?10643-1400-Array (post #10)

I've been putting together a parts list and finding the components.

I saw a picture of the Array 1400 LF crossover which uses air-core inductors. In pictures of your (Robh3606) crossover I noticed some ferrite core inductors. How important is the core type for the large inductors in these crossovers? Is low DCR more important? The 14 gauge air core inductors available have a DCR of about 0.52 ohms, and the schematic shows a DCR of 0.45 ohms, is the difference significant enough to go to 13 gauge wire inductors or switch to ferrite core inductors with lower DCR?

The schematic in the link above shows a C1 = 56uF, but the schematic in the pdf file "Technical Manual1400 Array Project Array™ Series" show C1 = 47uF. Which is correct, why is there a difference?

[reconed]

Of course! - I have thoroughly studied that thread already. Nice looking job. Did you finish the cabs and mount the xo's in full view? Pictures of the final product?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...400-Array-XO-s (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33003-Junior-s-1400-Array-XO-s)

JuniorJBL:
Did you replace the 47uF capacitor which is an NPE on the stock network with the "charge coupled" equivalent? I looked at your pictures and it does not look like you did. Is that standard practice when charge coupling or just a matter of being practical?

[4313B]

The schematic in the link above shows a C1 = 56uF, but the schematic in the pdf file "Technical Manual1400 Array Project Array™ Series" show C1 = 47uF. Which is correct, why is there a difference?The EDS is stamped 04/05 while the Technical Manual is stamped 11/06. I'd go with the revision.

[JuniorJBL]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...400-Array-XO-s (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33003-Junior-s-1400-Array-XO-s)

JuniorJBL:
Did you replace the 47uF capacitor which is an NPE on the stock network with the "charge coupled" equivalent? I looked at your pictures and it does not look like you did. Is that standard practice when charge coupling or just a matter of being practical?


I just used Jantzen Crosscaps for most of the XO (and Dayton where I could not get the Jantzen values I wanted) and yes I used the newer revision at 56uf. I did not feel the extreme extra cost would benefit me in any way since I was using a quality cap. You could run by-pass with film/foil if you so desired.

BTW I did not use any NPE's in my XO's.

[reconed]

Well I finally finished the networks - better late than never! Now I will test them and get started on the cabinets.:bouncy:

I want to thank this website and its members for making this project possible. :applaud:


722047220572206

[grumpy]

That was a lot of work. Nice job.

[DavidF]

Yeah, it does look like a lot of work :crying:. Especially how you have everything compact on the boards. I just couldn't work that kind of magic.

[reconed]

Thanks for the compliments! I did my best to keep the wires short. I drew the layout in CAD. Those boards are still not small - 7.5" x 11" each. I'm looking forward to building the cabs now.

[LarryM]

Even though building a 1400 array clone is work, it is also one of the more fun speaker builds I have done. Purchased the SAM1HF and LE14H-3 from Widget last summer.

I made the cab volume 4.2 cu ft., same as 250ti. Better bass extension than the factory 1400 array at 3.2 cu ft. although I did not try to compare volumes. My opinion is they were meant to be paired with the 1500 array sub. If you are using a sub then the smaller volume seems to be appropriate, otherwise if your not, go with the larger.

[reconed]

Larry,
Nice looking cabinets. Thanks for the advice on the volume. I'm used to my performance series PS1400 / PT800 stacks which have great bass and I don't plan to add a sub, so I think I will use a little more volume to extend the bass. I was planning a 3.6 cu ft volume, maybe I'll look at increasing that.
Ross

[4313B]

I made the cab volume 4.2 cu ft., same as 250ti.Excellent choice! Gotta love DIY eh? :)

[JuniorJBL]

I put the SAM's on top of the Citation 7.4 cabs with -3 drivers. It was really awesome. :D

Some of the best low frequency I have ever listened to without a sub in the system IMO.

Congrats on the build! :)

[reconed]

I'm starting to build my bass cabinets and need one more bit of information: What's the vertical distance between the bottom edge of the horn and the top of the woofer on the Array 1400?

[rdgrimes]

I'm starting to build my bass cabinets and need one more bit of information: What's the vertical distance between the bottom edge of the horn and the top of the woofer on the Array 1400?

1-1/2"
Eyeballing the distance from center of VC to center of VC is about 16-1/4". You also need to pay attention to the VC alignment vertically, keeping them both in the same vertical plane.

[reconed]

Thank you for the data. It appears from pictures I have seen of the Array 1400 that the "lip" of the horn, where the horn meets its enclosure in the SAM1HF, appears to be aligned with the baffle of the Array 1400. I guess that would also be where the VCs are aligned.

[reconed]

I had found this post stating 38 mm from baffle to front edge of horn:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28356-Array-1400-Horn-Offset&highlight=Array+1400+Horn+Offset

[rdgrimes]

Vertical distance is 1-1/2", the horn is offset forward by 38mm. But again: that might relate more to the VC alignment than anything else. So if you're not using the same horn and same LF cabinet the values would change.

[reconed]

Got it - I'll also make sure the voice coils are aligned. Thanks so much for checking.

[reconed]

I finally got these put together enough to give them a listen. So far I'm very happy with them. I think they sound better than my Performance Series stacks which is saying a lot! The bass cabinets are 3.7 cu ft and I love the bass. The mids and highs are really clear and smooth. I have not connected the battery to the charged caps yet, I want to hear them both ways. I'm going to listen to them for a couple more days before final assembly and finishing. 7889978900789017890278903

[reconed]

more pics7890478905789067890778908

[reconed]

This is how I am going to build the tops. I plan to paint the tops satin black and veneer the bottoms with walnut veneer.

Thanks to all the members who have helped advise me with this project.

789107890978911

[rdgrimes]

Awesome, and these will provide lots of listening goodness.

[reconed]

I finally got them finished. I have been listening to them without the batteries installed in the CC networks, hoping to hear the difference after I install them. They sound really good without the batteries.

[reconed]

More pics

[Ed Zeppeli]

Wow.

Those look excellent.

Happy listening!

[Mr. Widget]

Very neat project. Congratulations!


Widget

[reconed]

Thanks for the kind words. Real compliments coming from you guys!

[Robh3606]

They came out really nice!

Rob:)

[RedCoat23]

Excellent results, really well done.:applaud:

[DavidF]

I do like the appearance of the satin black and that veneer. All the nice edges takes some amount of skill, and patience.


Plus, you have a killer garage chair for some coffee and a view to watch the rain come down.

[reconed]

Thanks for the compliments. I tried to make them look like the JBL originals, as much as my woodworking skills would allow.
I could never have built these without the help and encouragement of the members on this site. It was a fun and satisfying project.

[macaroonie]

Good work there chief , the thing I spotted that tickled my bit was the diagonal bracing in the bass box. Nice touch. Lovely finishing all round. :applaud:

[cooky1257]

Great job, well done.

[Woody Banks]

Very nicely done. :applaud: