Harmful Frequencies

[Krunchy]

HI Guys, I was just curious about which frequencies played at loud volumes are most damaging to the ear. I was playing some music yesterday on the 4430s at a fairly loud volume, probably 95-98db. The amp I was playing through had a Loudness boost button and a Tone control button (treble was noctched up a bit) both of which were engaged at the time so everything was boosted but the highs were very crisp & clear. I played the music for about a 20-30 mions. or so at this level. After I turned the volume down to civilized levels I noticed my left ear seemed a bit out of whack, kind of like when you get water in it when swiming & there was a ringing in it. Last time I had ringing in my ears was after an ac/dc concert when I was in high school many moons ago. In any case I woke up today expecting it to have subsided a bit but its still the same as yesterday. I play the 4345s very loud at times (105+db) for short periods of time always, I couldnt do extended listenings at such volumes and never had this problem. I have a feeling it was the high frequencies that are culpable in my case but was just curious you guys have to say. I know there was a thread here related to this topic but am unable to find it. Thanks! :)

[Krunchy]

Needles to day I'm taking it easy on the volume today :D

[Hoerninger]

Hi Krunchy,

in general at higher frequencies, where hearing loss often starts.
But if you have a ringing it is just there. There were you can't hear the brain has the ability to virtually produce some tones. :(
Unfortunately you can't train your ears to sustain high levels. It is just like with radioactivity: The longer and more intense the noise the more damaging it is.

But you have a chance for regeneration. ;)

___________
Peter

[Krunchy]

But you have a chance for regeneration. ;)

___________
Peter

Thanks Peter thats good to know. I'll certainly be more cautious in future listenings. Even while I was playing it yesterday I could feel like a fluttering/breaking up of sound in there, hard to describe the sensation.

[SEAWOLF97]

Hi Fred
I was once reading the back story on the old Memorex commercials , you know "reproduction so real it can break glass" , just like Ella's voice did ....

Poster noted that playback was at 130db . At that volume even a recorded fart can break glass. Point being that it was the volume, not the frequency that did the damage.

I used to film on a carrier flightdeck , just feet away from the Fantoms in reburn mode. They measured 115db. Even with ear protection headsets I got ringing for some time. It took a couple of days to dissipate.

Couple of years back we were up plinking on the base of Mt. Hood , a van full of guns/kids came up to share the range. They were using AR-15's and offered to let us try. With no hearing protection, I was ringing some 2-3 days, but my son did not have a problem , nor did I when shooting the same weapon at 21. Age related ?

[Hoerninger]

hard to describe the sensation.

Once I listened to "The ride of the Valcuries" from the film Apocalypse Now. I used four big bass horns (Paragon XXL ;)), I was alone and I had to do it:D. Although I have never been in Vietnam the very clean sound reproduction seemed to be at a higer level than real helicopters. :crying:
When I drove home by car I had no ringing but it was so calm, so calm ...
____________
Peter

[NickH]

I've had the same problem Seawolf.. About a year ago I was shooting pistols. Stupid me, no hearing protection. 1 pistol was tinny revolver 22mag. The thing was like shooting a cannon. My ears were ringing for a week. I had to wear a ear plug in one ear for a week. If I didn't, any loud sounds was like listening to a blown tweeter. My right ear was all distorted and quite painful.

But as frequency goes up so does the inherent energy contained. That's why tweeters and mids take a lot less power to produce a given volume. If I were to bet mid band would do the most damage. But its just a guess.

I imagine at the higher frequencies are dissipated by loses in the inner ear. But again its just a guess. But it kinda make since. To me I seem to be most sensative to frequencies around 10k.

[Krunchy]

Hi Fred I was once reading the back story on the old Memorex commercials , you know "reproduction so real it can break glass" , just like Ella's voice did .... Poster noted that playback was at 130db . At that volume even a recorded fart can break glass. Point being that it was the volume, not the frequency that did the damage. Couple of years back we were up plinking on the base of Mt. Hood , a van full of guns/kids came up to share the range. They were using AR-15's and offered to let us try. With no hearing protection, I was ringing some 2-3 days, but my son did not have a problem , nor did I when shooting the same weapon at 21. Age related ?
Hi Tom, I remember the old Memorex commercial.
I hear :D what you're saying. Volume definitely has something to do with it but I think I'm pretty sensitive to the high freqs as well, with all the boosting going on it was getting shrill. Those tweeters on the 4430s are very effective. I was also contemplating the age angle as well and do believe you're right about that, like everything else things dry up, cartilaige comes to mind, one is just not as resilient as when in our yout.


Once I listened to "The ride of the Valcuries" from the film Apocalypse Now. I used four big bass horns (Paragon XXL ;)), I was alone and I had to do it :D. Although I have never been in Vietnam the very clean sound reproduction seemed to be at a higer level than real helicopters. :crying: When I drove home by car I had no ringing but it was so calm, so calm ... ____________ Peter

:rotfl:

[Krunchy]

But as frequency goes up so does the inherent energy contained. That's why tweeters and mids take a lot less power to produce a given volume. If I were to bet mid band would do the most damage. But its just a guess.

I imagine at the higher frequencies are dissipated by loses in the inner ear. But again its just a guess. But it kinda make since. To me I seem to be most sensative to frequencies around 10k.

Hi Nick, thats an interesting observation, I had not thought the mid band to be the culprit, I'll be curious to see what other folks have to say.
Thanks

[SEAWOLF97]

Once I listened to "The ride of the Valcuries" from the film Apocalypse Now. I used four big bass horns (Paragon XXL ;)), I was alone and I had to do it:D. Although I have never been in Vietnam the very clean sound reproduction seemed to be at a higer level than real helicopters. :crying:
When I drove home by car I had no ringing but it was so calm, so calm ...
____________
Peter

Peter ...I've was there ...27 months, tho only 6 were in helos. The movie experience may capture the amplitude of the rotor noise, but they do not capture the whine of the turbine engine (very jet-like) or the constant vibration (just ask Loach71 ) or the wind pressure changes or even the wind howl (we removed the doors for weight reduction and flew at about 125kts.) . It is very fatiguing , even tho you don't really hear the noises after a while.

If the movies recorded all those noises, the conversation would be drowned out. We always had to communicate via the headset intercom system.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've had the same problem Seawolf.. About a year ago I was shooting pistols. Stupid me, no hearing protection. 1 pistol was tinny revolver 22mag. The thing was like shooting a cannon. My ears were ringing for a week. I had to wear a ear plug in one ear for a week. If I didn't, any loud sounds was like listening to a blown tweeter. My right ear was all distorted and quite painful.

But as frequency goes up so does the inherent energy contained. That's why tweeters and mids take a lot less power to produce a given volume. If I were to bet mid band would do the most damage. But its just a guess.

I imagine at the higher frequencies are dissipated by loses in the inner ear. But again its just a guess. But it kinda make since. To me I seem to be most sensative to frequencies around 10k.

My WAG* is that a gun shot is somewhere in the mid band. An AR-15/M-16 is just a .22 (actually .223) with a crapload of powder behind it. Very high velocity. But even my S&W .22 long pistol is very loud too.


*cool, I found this: http://www.guns.connect.fi/rs/308measured.html

looks like a .308 peaks at near 160db at 2 meters and freq centers from 1 to 10 khz.

[Maron Horonzakz]

LOUD HIGH INTENSITY SOUND CAN DAMAGE THE INNER EAR,,,AND CAN TAKE UP TO 6 MONTHS TO HEAL...SOME TIMES YOU DONT EVEN GET THAT CHANCE...QUOTE FROM ST.LOUIS INSTATUTE OF THE DEAF....:bouncy:

[BMWCCA]

LOUD HIGH INTENSITY SOUND CAN DAMAGE THE INNER EAR,,,AND CAN TAKE UP TO 6 MONTHS TO HEAL...SOME TIMES YOU DONT EVEN GET THAT CHANCE...QUOTE FROM ST.LOUIS INSTATUTE OF THE DEAF....:bouncy:

What? I think I went deaf from your YELLING at me! ;)

[1audiohack]

Tony Andrews of Funktion One Sound makes argument that distortion is more damaging to ones hearing than level. I have a paper he wrote on it somewhere in this computer that I can not find at the moment.

I believe that there may be some truth to the theory. I can listen to my 4350's louder and longer than my 4435's. I completely attribute that to the effortless power of the 2441 four inch driver in the 4350. The 2425 1.75 driver in the 4435 gets harsh pretty fast and the 2344 being a diffraction horn has its arguable pitfalls though I don't argue about it and I actuall quite like them.


On the distortion front, I had one of the very clean "Big Rigs" out for a concert in the park,,,ing lot last Saturday night for about six hours at an average level that I don't even want to admit to and no ringing on the way home, a little muted yes but no discomfort. There is no way I could have listened to it that loud that long if it wasn't really clean.

Just my two bits.

Barry.

[Krunchy]

LOUD HIGH INTENSITY SOUND CAN DAMAGE THE INNER EAR,,,AND CAN TAKE UP TO 6 MONTHS TO HEAL...SOME TIMES YOU DONT EVEN GET THAT CHANCE..

Thank you, that cheered me up, fortunately its subsiding and about 75% better this morning. :)


Tony Andrews of Funktion One Sound makes argument that distortion is more damaging to ones hearing than level. I believe that there may be some truth to the theory.
I can listen to my 4350's louder and longer than my 4435's :yes:. I completely attribute that to the effortless power of the 2441 four inch driver in the 4350. The 2425 1.75 driver in the 4435 gets harsh pretty fast and the 2344 being a diffraction horn has its arguable pitfalls though I don't argue about it and I actuall quite like them.. Barry.

I was aware of the distortion issue, though in my case I dont know if it came into play. I had the amp cranking at maybe 50% and it was definitely not breaking up in any sense of the word, if anything it sounded really clean and crisp,..... thats why I kept turning it up :D
Once my ear settles down I'm going to conduct a few experiments, cautiously, I'll know when Im getting beyond my limits since my ear starts to do that little fluttery kind of thing.

[Eaulive]

Tony Andrews of Funktion One Sound makes argument that distortion is more damaging to ones hearing than level. I have a paper he wrote on it somewhere in this computer that I can not find at the moment.

I believe that there may be some truth to the theory. I can listen to my 4350's louder and longer than my 4435's. I completely attribute that to the effortless power of the 2441 four inch driver in the 4350. The 2425 1.75 driver in the 4435 gets harsh pretty fast and the 2344 being a diffraction horn has its arguable pitfalls though I don't argue about it and I actuall quite like them.


On the distortion front, I had one of the very clean "Big Rigs" out for a concert in the park,,,ing lot last Saturday night for about six hours at an average level that I don't even want to admit to and no ringing on the way home, a little muted yes but no discomfort. There is no way I could have listened to it that loud that long if it wasn't really clean.

Just my two bits.

Barry.

I would suggest than the flatness of the sound (no harsh peaks at some frequencies) has more to do than actual distortion, the musical program also can cause fatigue and discomfort.

I can listen to well recorded albums without fatigue at high volumes, but some other sound so bad that I can't stand to listen to them anywhere else than on a crappy laptop. :barf:

[NickH]

Seawolf, I forgot to mention the worst gun I ever had to shoot. The first time I shot it I tried it without hearing protection. It was a 30-378 weatherby mag. I literally was a cannon. It was capable of hurling a 200 grain 30 caliber bullet with a muzzle velocity of just over 3000 feet per second. It was a beast. Anytime I took it to the range people would alway come ask me what it was. The case had a max capacity of 120 grains of powder.


Anyway I pulled the trigger once without protection. It was excruciatingly pain full. I couldn't talk on a phone for quite a while. The dial tone was very unpleasant. I owned that gun for many years. I only made that mistake once. I mentioned it to a weatherby rep once and he told me a story. He was talking to a farmer who bought one. He said the guy fired it off the hood of his truck. It shattered the wind shield when he pulled the trigger. I'm sure that removed a good amount of my hearing when I did that stunt. I was in my early twenties.

A side note, I sold the gun do to the cost of ammo about 10 years ago. I though about getting another. That is until I recently looked into the cost of ammo now. Its over 120 bucks a box. Yes that only 20 rounds too. But if you want to hunt anything at 1000 yards or over, its what ya need. I'm frightened to say that round was created to hunt the 2 legged variety of critter. Held the record for most accurate round for over 1000 yards up until someone made a shoulder fired 50 bmg.

I don't care what kind of stereo you've got or what who concerts you went too. They weren't anywhere near 160 db. Only thing worse would be sitting beside a Saturn 5 at lift off. That's supposed to be over 200 db. The sound pressure alone will cause damage and or rupture of internal organs. But what a way to go, lol.


kidding about that last part.

I'm sure there's got to be some documented research on this subject. I bet o.s.h.a. Has done some. I know they have documented exposure levels with time like working in a nuclear reactor.

Nick

[SEAWOLF97]

Well, you know that there is unadvertised hearing protection built into the LP vinyl playback system. :confused:

Yes...if you turn the gain too loud or dial up too much bass, the stylus skips to warn you of hearing danger ...those old skool engineers were really ahead of their time ;)

[4343]

...

I don't care what kind of stereo you've got or what who concerts you went too. They weren't anywhere near 160 db. Only thing worse would be sitting beside a Saturn 5 at lift off. That's supposed to be over 200 db. The sound pressure alone will cause damage and or rupture of internal organs. But what a way to go, lol.


kidding about that last part.

I'm sure there's got to be some documented research on this subject. I bet o.s.h.a. Has done some. I know they have documented exposure levels with time like working in a nuclear reactor.

Nick

Sennhieser used to have an ad that showed the output of their MD421 mic 15 CM from a .22 starter pistol. It showed a nice smooth pulse that they said hit 150 dB spl. Anyone shooting just about anything without hearing protection has already lost some hearing ability. Time always takes it's toll too.

BTW, that little flutter in your ear is a warning sign, it's your ear overloading and distorting. Use hearing protection anytime you feel that starting, or just turn down the volume...

[Fort Knox]

I would suggest than the flatness of the sound (no harsh peaks at some frequencies) has more to do than actual distortion, the musical program also can cause fatigue and discomfort.

I can listen to well recorded albums without fatigue at high volumes, but some other sound so bad that I can't stand to listen to them anywhere else than on a crappy laptop. :barf:

I agree with the no "harsh peaks" thing....if you Eq your speakers to within 6 db of zero (meter) (all 30 (1/3 oct) your ears will love you....

[Krunchy]

BTW, that little flutter in your ear is a warning sign, it's your ear overloading and distorting. Use hearing protection anytime you feel that starting, or just turn down the volume... I suspected this much, been heeding it since it happened. As Eaulive mentioned, I have experienced that sensation with poor recording at lower volume settings. I am happy to report that the ringing is gone and hearing is completely back to normal :) :) :)