How much restoration do these JBL 120Tis need?

[Kreshna]

So I bought these pair of JBL 120Tis.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/jbl120Tisanscover_zps847179c6.jpg

Functionally, they sound fine. At least I couldn't find any flaws in the sound. But cosmetically, I think they require some restoration.

(1) On the right speaker, there is a black stain running between the JBL logo and the tweeter, down to the midrange driver. The seller has no idea where the stain come from, he bought the speakers "as is". I wonder, do I need some heavy sanding and re-finishing to remove the stain?

(2) the veneer is noticeably darker than a typical 120Ti veneer, so I think the previous owner has re-coated them with a new tung oil layer. If I want to restore it to the original color, which tung oil color would you suggest?

(3) the drivers are not as "black" as they should be, probably due to age. Not really a big deal, but which is the best way to clean a speaker's driver? Would a damp cloth be sufficient? I have tried damp cloth on a certain area on the woofer cone, and it works to remove the dust, but is damp cloth a safe way to clean a cone? Or should I stick to "dry cleaning method" like vacuum cleaner?

Overall, using a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate these speakers' condition?

Thanks.

[rdgrimes]

You'll never know till you tear into them. The dark finish could be anything from cigarette smoke to something someone applied to them. Pull the drivers and emblems and start sanding. Be careful though, that veneer isn't very thick. I'd start with light sanding using 150 grit. If you get a lot of crud balled up on the sandpaper, then someone put a finish on them. In any case, sanding will help even them out. The more I look at them the more I see varnish that someone put on there.

The drivers could be cleaned with a damp sponge, see what that gets you.

[Kreshna]

You'll never know till you tear into them. The dark finish could be anything from cigarette smoke to something someone applied to them. Pull the drivers and emblems and start sanding. Be careful though, that veneer isn't very thick. I'd start with light sanding using 150 grit. If you get a lot of crud balled up on the sandpaper, then someone put a finish on them. In any case, sanding will help even them out. The more I look at them the more I see varnish that someone put on there.

The drivers could be cleaned with a damp sponge, see what that gets you.
I see, thanks! I'll start with the drivers.

[Kreshna]

Well despite their beaten condition, they still sound really good. I really enjoyed the intro of Scatman (Game Over Jazz) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9q_td9gnP0) (sung by John Larkin).

I have to admit, first I don't like their HF, which I sounded too harsh during audition. The harshness lessened after the store owner tightened the crocodile connector, but it is still pretty harsh for my taste.

But when I brought them home, and drove them with my Sansui AU-7900, the harshness is all gone. The HF is still loud, but now it is crystal clear and detailed instead of being harsh. I don't understand, since the store owner's NAD C326BEE amplifier is supposed to be better than my vintage Sansui (or is it?).

If we are using bass analogy, then:
- the HF I heard during addition is analogue to "one note bass" from boomy subwoofer.
- the HF I heard at home is analogue to detailed, tight bass from a Velo subwoofer.
Which I don't understand.

Nonetheless, I have come to love titanium dome tweeters! :applaud:

[hjames]

Bingo! Your own ears are the best tool you have. If you like them with the Sansui and the NAD was noisy, there ya go!
Lot of Sansui fans out there - they must know something!:applaud:


Well despite their beaten condition, they still sound really good. I really enjoyed the intro of Scatman (Game Over Jazz) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9q_td9gnP0) (sung by John Larkin).

I have to admit, first I don't like their HF, which I sounded too harsh during audition. The harshness lessened after the store owner tightened the crocodile connector, but it is still pretty harsh for my taste.

But when I brought them home, and drove them with my Sansui AU-7900, the harshness is all gone. The HF is still loud, but now it is crystal clear and detailed instead of being harsh. I don't understand, since the store owner's NAD C326BEE amplifier is supposed to be better than my vintage Sansui (or is it?).

If we are using bass analogy, then:
- the HF I heard during addition is analogue to "one note bass" from boomy subwoofer.
- the HF I heard at home is analogue to detailed, tight bass from a Velo subwoofer.
Which I don't understand.

Nonetheless, I have come to love titanium dome tweeters!

[Kreshna]

Bingo! Your own ears are the best tool you have. If you like them with the Sansui and the NAD was noisy, there ya go!
Lot of Sansui fans out there - they must know something!:applaud:
Well, how to say it? The 120Tis' tweeters really shine with Sansui AU-7900. Still as loud as when driven by the NAD C326BEE, but much cleaner and *very* detailed! Oh, and it's not fatiguing to the ears either! Listening to this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9q_td9gnP0) is a bliss, and so is this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkaFEhe-Abo), and this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJmggSHS1w4) too! And... and... the list still goes on! :thmbsup:

I noted that the C326BEE has somewhat stronger bass, but it's not really a problem. I still have a Velo SC-8 sub waiting for a matching sub amp. :)

My AU-7900 still has weird problem though, but that is another story... (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showpost.php?p=7043423&postcount=9) :crying:


And yes, Heather, you're right. Ears are the ultimate judge. I remember reading somewhere that AU-7900 is a "bright" amplifier, which means it pumps a lot of treble. And based on what I read, AU-7900 is supposed to be matched with bass-heavy speakers to make things "balanced". Thus, initially, I was a little wary of driving titanium dome tweeters with such "bright" amplifier.

Turned out my ears told otherwise; titanium tweeters sound really great when driven by the AU-7900. :D

Overall, the 120Tis sound perfect despite their less-than-stellar cosmetic condition (the black stain on the right speaker is an example). For listening alone, I don't really need to restore them. But I do plan to restore them anyway. :)

[Wagner]

So I bought these pair of JBL 120Tis.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/jbl120Tisanscover_zps847179c6.jpg

Functionally, they sound fine. At least I couldn't find any flaws in the sound. But cosmetically, I think they require some restoration.

(1) On the right speaker, there is a black stain running between the JBL logo and the tweeter, down to the midrange driver. The seller has no idea where the stain come from, he bought the speakers "as is". I wonder, do I need some heavy sanding and re-finishing to remove the stain?

(2) the veneer is noticeably darker than a typical 120Ti veneer, so I think the previous owner has re-coated them with a new tung oil layer. If I want to restore it to the original color, which tung oil color would you suggest?

(3) the drivers are not as "black" as they should be, probably due to age. Not really a big deal, but which is the best way to clean a speaker's driver? Would a damp cloth be sufficient? I have tried damp cloth on a certain area on the woofer cone, and it works to remove the dust, but is damp cloth a safe way to clean a cone? Or should I stick to "dry cleaning method" like vacuum cleaner?

Overall, using a scale of 1 to 10, how would you rate these speakers' condition?

Thanks.


Those cabs have been lathered with some sort of spooge and or furniture polish (the WRONG type for truly caring for good wood.)
See the lighter area around the one badge? That's the color that veneer is supposed to be.
Remove all the drivers and WASH the cabs, first with acetone and then follow that with a denatured alcohol wash.
May make them clean enough to make you happy and will remove the scum and grime that will clog sandpaper if and when you get to that.
If you can't or don't want to go that route at least wash them with a good quality mineral spirits.
Any stains remaining, wipe with a rag dampened with hydrogen peroxide (this for water soluble stains and spots).
THEN lightly sand with a high quality paper to even things out, 180 or 220 grit. 3M makes a good product as does the brand "Gator". These two brand of paper will give you a nice, smooth clean cut and resist clogging. Just use the best paper you can afford.
This may sound like a lot of effort, but it is always best to remove as much crud and grime as is possible first, WITHOUT removing veneer with abrasives.
MEK also makes for an excellent final wash but some people are reluctant to handle it, it is very hard on the skin.
After you get the wood CLEAN and smooth you can then finish them off with either WATCO (wiping varnish, even though they call it "Danish oil") or a good boiled linseed oil and turpentine mix.
Good luck with your project!
Thomas

[SEAWOLF97]

yes, If you remove the logos (use dental floss) , the original teak color will present itself. that is the color/finish that should be your goal.

On my 2 Ti pairs, I used a product that only seems to be available in Australia that is a combo of citrus cleaner and beeswax. Its applied hard with a very fine steel wool which cleans out the wood pores. Leave to dry and buff out. Result is a very natural , semi-matte finish that has brought many compliments from those who have seen them.

Not sure if you can get such a product where you are. In Oz it's called "organ oil" , but there are similar in the US by different names.

All this is, of course, after you remove the crap finish that's currently there. As others have said , get it down to bare veneer and start over. It is worth the effort . IMHO, the "Ti series" had the absolute best looking veneers ;

(besides the "L series" .......(sorry,,,,,,, :o: inside joke :eek: ))

[Kreshna]

Interesting suggestions. Thanks folks. :)

[Maxwelhse]

I know I'm making a bit of a "zombie thread" here, but having gone down the road with with my much worse off 240Ti cabs, I thought I would chime in.

***I would try everything suggested above first since they're all less risky than what I did***

My cabs were nasty... Big gouges, heavy staining, paint drips, etc, etc... The worst of the worst... I paid $20 for them so I figured I couldn't lose.

I took 80 grit on a $15 Black and Decker palm sander to them. Like any power sanding, move quickly and don't stay in one place for very long. I took a shocking amount of material off of them, and from what I've been told since then, "got lucky" by having no ill effects. My total power sanding time, per cab, with regular paper changes, was about 1.5 hours...

I followed that up with 240 on the palm sander, then 600 on a Durablock. Once I was satisfied I sprayed them out internally and externally with compressed air, wiped their exteriors down with a bunch of damp paper towels (to pull the dust out of the wood), and applied Scott's Liquid Gold, in near bucket loads, for about the next 2-3 weeks, every couple of days. I touch them up with lemon oil now and the finish has been good and resilient.

What I did was very aggressive and a bit risky... but it paid off. They look great today! :)

-----

To answer your other question, that I didn't notice any answers to above, vacuum the speaker cones with a brush attachment (not any sort of nozzle tool or anything that will create concentrated vacuum), wipe down after with a water dampened cloth, allow them to dry, the LIGHTLY and CAREFULLY apply some lemon oil via a slightly wetted rag... DO NOT DO THE SURROUNDS... It will darken up the cones nicely for about 1 year at a time and for the first few months they will even have a slight sheen. Less lemon oil is more in this case, it doesn't take much. Do not do this if you have any future desires of applying anything like "The Wet Look" (aka... aftermarket aquaplas).

I ran across that trick quite by accident and have been doing it for about 12 years now with no problems. You want just enough lemon oil to darken them, you do not want to saturate the cones in any way.

-----

Again, all of that is at your own risk. That's what I did, that's what I do, and it's worked fine for me.

[Wagner]

I know I'm making a bit of a "zombie thread" here, but having gone down the road with with my much worse off 240Ti cabs, I thought I would chime in.

***I would try everything suggested above first since they're all less risky than what I did***

My cabs were nasty... Big gouges, heavy staining, paint drips, etc, etc... The worst of the worst... I paid $20 for them so I figured I couldn't lose.

I took 80 grit on a $15 Black and Decker palm sander to them. Like any power sanding, move quickly and don't stay in one place for very long. I took a shocking amount of material off of them, and from what I've been told since then, "got lucky" by having no ill effects. My total power sanding time, per cab, with regular paper changes, was about 1.5 hours...

I followed that up with 240 on the palm sander, then 600 on a Durablock. Once I was satisfied I sprayed them out internally and externally with compressed air, wiped their exteriors down with a bunch of damp paper towels (to pull the dust out of the wood), and applied Scott's Liquid Gold, in near bucket loads, for about the next 2-3 weeks, every couple of days. I touch them up with lemon oil now and the finish has been good and resilient.

What I did was very aggressive and a bit risky... but it paid off. They look great today! :)

-----

To answer your other question, that I didn't notice any answers to above, vacuum the speaker cones with a brush attachment (not any sort of nozzle tool or anything that will create concentrated vacuum), wipe down after with a water dampened cloth, allow them to dry, the LIGHTLY and CAREFULLY apply some lemon oil via a slightly wetted rag... DO NOT DO THE SURROUNDS... It will darken up the cones nicely for about 1 year at a time and for the first few months they will even have a slight sheen. Less lemon oil is more in this case, it doesn't take much. Do not do this if you have any future desires of applying anything like "The Wet Look" (aka... aftermarket aquaplas).

I ran across that trick quite by accident and have been doing it for about 12 years now with no problems. You want just enough lemon oil to darken them, you do not want to saturate the cones in any way.

-----

Again, all of that is at your own risk. That's what I did, that's what I do, and it's worked fine for me.


The wood on those cabs needs to be WASHED
Something oily or sticky or greasy or silicone or SOMETHING has been lathered all over them
(whatever shiny crap they spoiled the veneer with is probably the explanation for some or all of the mystery stains on the woofer)
All the sanding in the world won't get that out/off unless it is absoulutely HARD and DRY (cured) but MEK or ACETONE or MINERAL SPIRITS will
Well actually it conceivably might, along with 90% of your veneer
You want to LIFT and FLUSH as much of that crap as possible out of the grain
If the material has soaked in deep enough, all you'll wind up with is thinner veneer and nice smooth stains
Keep in mind too that the heat generated from sanding can help to really set a stain that otherwise could have been WASHED OFF or OUT
I do not understand people's reluctance to properly clean wood before refinishing, no different from preparing an automobile for painting
You wouldn't use a grinder to remove oil film or tree sap from a fender or a hood would you?
All the sanding one can avoid on veneered pieces so much the better
And it'll make for a better looking new finish to over sanding it all off, even if you were successful at it
Any sanding other than a light prep "go over" should be avoided if possible or practical
And whatever you do DON'T PUT LEMON OIL on your cones, leave them alone and just live with it
Brushing gently with a soft paint brush and carefully vacuuming is fine, after that LEAVE THEM ALONE
If you INSIST on trying to clean them use naphtha
It is never smart to attempt to chemically clean anything delicate like that if you DO NOT KNOW WITH CERTAINTY what it is!
For all you know, it maybe Pepsi Cola and in that case would be a water soluble stain which would require putting WATER! on your drivers......................well I think you should have gotten my point by now

Best of luck with your project

Thomas

[Wagner]

My cabs were nasty... Big gouges, heavy staining, paint drips, etc, etc... The worst of the worst... I paid $20 for them so I figured I couldn't lose.

Gouges = Hot iron, some water and a rag + some time, in a word STEAM
Heavy staining = See my rant above, depends on what it is. Wine? = Hydrogen peroxide
Paint drips = See my rant above, some acetone, MEK or even your finger nails or a dull putty knife

Then a LIGHT sanding with 120 grit MAX and any touch ups with filler and ink that steaming couldn't resolve

80 grit paper on Walnut veneer = HACK

That's just the way it is

BUT, if you are happy then that's all that matters

Thomas

[Wagner]

I failed to mention, if you suspect that a pair of cabs may have fallen victim to a nice coat of orange shellac applied with a brush or a water pistol, DENATURED ALCOHOL and a roll of paper towels is all you need.

These cabs being discussed here may very well have had that put on them, it is really hard to tell what that shit is from a photograph on a computer monitor........but it is just about the right hue?

Try a little test spot and see what happens.

That's the one thing I love about the old phonograph finishes from before WWI
all were done in shellac and it is a DREAM to remove.

The denatured alcohol will take it right down to bare wood in minutes.

Thomas

[Maxwelhse]

Lemon oil on the cones? I don't do it on purpose (it generally just happens when oiling the rest of the cabinet), but it does what the OP asked for and I haven't had any issues with mine after many, many, years... Again, not for everyone...

In response to your other points, I already stated that what I did was very extreme, not appropriate in all cases, and not a recommended first step...



80 grit paper on Walnut veneer = HACK

That's just the way it is


That's the comment where you went over the line... You're making an assumption that I don't know what I'm doing, and clearly stopped reading before I listed my finishing steps (I'm sure you block sand all of your cabs with 600...?). Or you don't know what I was talking about anyhow...

My 240Tis look great, have no veneer burns or low spots (in fact, their veneer is in much better condition than my never touched LXXT series speakers), and are as smooth as a baby's rump... Just because YOU aren't comfortable with that method doesn't mean that it didn't get good results with patience and attention to detail... I could have run 240 grit for 3x as long and gotten the same thing... It's also worth mentioning that the tops of my 240Tis had CIGARETTE BURNS.... Not anymore... Good luck with 120, by hand, trying to get that out.

Anyhow... With my irritation "spoken" and my tone changed...

Your advice seems good and I'm definitely going to give it a shot first, if I ever have another set of $20 barn speakers to turn into $1000 furniture, before going down the same road I went down.

I respect your position and appreciate you sharing other approaches.

[SEAWOLF97]

(in fact, their veneer is in much better condition than my never touched LXXT series speakers)



If you can get past the fact the veneer sucks, the L100T has the most bang for the buck. You can pick up a nice pair for $200 - $300. The veneer, however, is horrible. It tends to chip easily and will get separate from the particle board cabinet if exposed to temperature extremes.


There’s a reason why the veneer sucks on most JBL consumer speakers built after the L112 and L96…the veneer is not genuine wood. The veneer looks and feels real, but is actually a processed wood product with the grain printed on it. Internally at JBL it was referred to as spaghetti wood.

I had a stain on the long departed L80T's. Tried sanding .. no joy , tried various chemicals ... no joy either. suspect that bill8888 was correct.

[BMWCCA]

I had a stain on the long departed L80T's. Tried sanding .. no joy , tried various chemicals ... no joy either. suspect that bill8888 was correct.

I've sanded two pairs of L80Ts with excellent results. The took in the Watco Danish oil just like, well, wood! :dont-know:

Before and after:

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/DSC_1402.jpg (http://s31.photobucket.com/user/BMWCCA1/media/DSC_1402.jpg.html)

[Maxwelhse]

I agree entirely... The veneer on the LXXT is complete garbage compared to the 240Ti, L300, and 4430... My L100Ts were MINT (not a single scratch, chip, ding, dimple, stain, etc, etc,etc...) the day I bought them (they were 12 years old at the time... sequential serials and enthusiast owned) and even with careful treatment I have managed to booger them up a little. What I've found with mine, more than the "wood" itself (which is VERY thin) is that the adhesive lets go from the base cabinet... Right now one of mine has some loose veneer on a corner that I need to glue up. I would never attempt sanding my L100Ts as aggressively as I did my 240Tis (the $980 difference in investment, at that time, would be enough to talk me out of it)... Maybe I'm too dumb to know that the veneer on the Ti series is just as crappy as the T series? As I said earlier, I've been told I got lucky with my method before, and it was an extremist approach.

All that said, the basis of my comment was that my abusive(?) treatment of my 240Ti cabs still yielded a much nicer final result than my totally kid gloves approach to my L100Ts, which I have always been very proud of (at 19 a $500, used, set of my very own JBLs was a very big deal to me... I didn't have $500 to throw around back then, nor do I now)...

My L80T cabs are absolutely perfect with no signs of repair, and they are still no where as nice as my "HACK"-ed on 240Tis...

I'm not trying to re-ruffle my own dander, just bringing the conversation back around to the original comment you quoted me on. What I did isn't for everyone, but it worked out for me! I'd rather be lucky than good, I guess! :)

-----

Oops... Missed this one... "The veneer looks and feels real, but is actually a processed wood product with the grain printed on it. Internally at JBL it was referred to as spaghetti wood."

As suicidal as I was at the time, and still incredibly unhappy about it now, I have broken a corner of the veneer out of one of my L100Ts (thankfully a back corner... though don't think it doesn't offend me, and disgust me with myself, when I look at them)...

The chunk that broke off appeared to be actual wood on the back, as well as the front... So, if it's printed woodgrain on engineered wood, I'm too stupid to notice the difference. It even splinter like actual wood. It is just HYPER thin veneer (taking a guess here.. 0.030"?)... I broke that corner off (like a total moron) while preparing to move, tucked it away in a cardboard box, and have never been able to find that chunk again. :( I've moved 2 more times since then, so I'm guessing it got chucked at some point. Yes, with great shame, I confess that one of my L100Ts has a nude corner.

It's also possible that JBL changed over to a different veneer at some point... I believe my L100Ts were manufactured in 1990.

I believe that there is a budget series of the "T" series (L100S?) that used vinyl veneer cabinets... Maybe that is some of the debate?

-----
BMWCCA (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?3653-BMWCCA): That's some excellent work! I wish I had before and after pictures of mine... :( Too impatient at the time, plus I didn't think they would turn out as nice as they did!

-----

Anyhow... I apologize for going to grossly off topic in this thread. I hope the OP is able to take this large conglomeration of opinions and develop a good game plan for restoration. I would use the technique I've illustrated as a last resort, if that wasn't made clear before.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've sanded two pairs of L80Ts with excellent results. The took in the Watco Danish oil just like, well, wood! :dont-know:



Mr. Carclub is somewhat correct. In addition to the L80T's that I had, there were also 2 pairs of L60T's. One pair had the SW , the other had real veneer .... that was delaminating badly. I did peel it off for future patching.

The SW pair, well, I tried oil ...it just puddled up and never soaked in. :(

JBL apparently made changes sometime during production ?

[Wagner]

Lemon oil on the cones? I don't do it on purpose (it generally just happens when oiling the rest of the cabinet), but it does what the OP asked for and I haven't had any issues with mine after many, many, years... Again, not for everyone...

In response to your other points, I already stated that what I did was very extreme, not appropriate in all cases, and not a recommended first step...



That's the comment where you went over the line... You're making an assumption that I don't know what I'm doing, and clearly stopped reading before I listed my finishing steps (I'm sure you block sand all of your cabs with 600...?). Or you don't know what I was talking about anyhow...

My 240Tis look great, have no veneer burns or low spots (in fact, their veneer is in much better condition than my never touched LXXT series speakers), and are as smooth as a baby's rump... Just because YOU aren't comfortable with that method doesn't mean that it didn't get good results with patience and attention to detail... I could have run 240 grit for 3x as long and gotten the same thing... It's also worth mentioning that the tops of my 240Tis had CIGARETTE BURNS.... Not anymore... Good luck with 120, by hand, trying to get that out.

Anyhow... With my irritation "spoken" and my tone changed...

Your advice seems good and I'm definitely going to give it a shot first, if I ever have another set of $20 barn speakers to turn into $1000 furniture, before going down the same road I went down.

I respect your position and appreciate you sharing other approaches.


80 grit paper has very little to do with 'patience and attention to detail'
I also think you missed this:


BUT, if you are happy then that's all that matters

Thomas

Enjoy your speakers,
Thomas