PDA

View Full Version : Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!



PSS AUDIO
06-19-2003, 01:45 AM
Good morning (French time),

I am a JBL listener since years (4311 - 4320 - 4333 and 4355) and I am reading this forum since several months now.

I also had several home made ALTEC speakers made of 411-8A woofer, 511 or 811 horns with a 806-8A driver.

I noticed quite a lot of complaints about lack of this, lack of that, willing to compare the dynamic and sound image of a 4343 / 4355, and so on.

I must say that I am working since 25 years in the amplifier market and I begin to have some knowledge’s about what an amplifier is.

You may not agree with me but I always thought that the quality of an amplifier is not only ascertained by sophisticated laboratory control methods.

One has to hear his performances, the human ear being the best of judges.

A sound is not only built up with technical specifications.

The only numbers I trust in are the signal to noise ratio (> 100 dB), the CMRR if you have a balanced input (> 80 dB) and the peak power!

Other numbers are just useless.

About distortion:

Add the distortion of the speaker, of the room and of your ear and you will be close to 3-4%. In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier? Nuts …

Damping factor:

I am not the author of this theory, but if the damping factor is > then 17, what ever the number is it has no significant meaning. Never forget that the damping factor is calculated at the “bottom” of the amplifier and do not include the wires and the impedance of the speaker at low frequencies. As a bass reflex speaker has a bigger impedance at low frequencies, the damping factor will raise immediately.

When an amplifier manufacturer argue that his amplifier has an enormous damping factor at 8 ohms and this is very good for bass restitution, and his amplifier handles easily a 2 ohm impedance, just divide by 4 this damping factor …

This is a 100% commercial number.

All those numbers and others do not make the sound quality!

There are things everybody ignores as I do, and they make an amplifier sound good!

The use of one brand of capacitors, the use of a type of capacitors, such quality of resistors, and so on is the basis of known things in the audiophile area.

After that, changing one component for an other can make an amplifier sound great, better or worse!

Let me give you several examples:

Change the bridge of your amplifier and the bass response can change radically; I did it just by changing a 20A bridge for 25A bridge from the same manufacturer and same bridge family (as I use a twin bridge in each channel for a 150W amplifier there is no relation between the needed amperes and what the bridges can deliver).

I made the same with an other brand and other models, it did not work the same.

Removing a limiter circuitry will enhance the micro information in the mids and high frequencies,

Changing an input potentiometer from one brand to an other, even if this potentiometer is set at 10 (wide open) it will change the tonality of your amplifier,

Since a year time that I now have the 4355 JBL speakers I made so many changes on my amplifier (same schematic, AB class, quasi complementary bipolar output transistors) I have now (and the job is not over and never will be) a new sound system:

I have all the low bass I was looking for,
I have more low mids,
There is no more agressivity (is it the good word) in the mids,
I have much more information in all the frequencies,
The high are also dam smooth and even more precise.

All what I did was to got the good settings in my amplifier.

This is perhaps the beginning of a long thread and I think it will be helpful for all of us and I hope I did not bore you too much with this message!

4313B
06-19-2003, 06:36 AM
"About distortion:

Add the distortion of the speaker, of the room and of your ear and you will be close to 3-4%. In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier?"

Quite... garbage in, garbage out. If you need more information on the relevance of amplifier distortion reference Dr. Matti Otala's work.

"Damping factor:

This is a 100% commercial number.

Yes and no, I think I understand what you are getting at, but it still "tells" you the output impedance of the amplifier and that can be a useful number. You may have noticed also that JBL often uses a parallel resistor across many of their bass drivers to "help" present a more linear load to a driving amplifier.

PSS AUDIO
06-19-2003, 07:00 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard

About distortion:

Quite... garbage in, garbage out. If you need more information on the relevance of amplifier distortion reference Dr. Matti Otala's work.

I do not agree! No one can hear the difference between 0,1% and 0,00000001% of distortions!
It is the same for the memory of some components and so on…

Those are just arguments sellers try to “sell” you as being as a critical number, they are just fooling us.

If those numbers were that important, why do bulb amplifiers sound so smooth (perhaps a lack of dynamic and punch in the bottom note)!

Damping factor:

Yes and no, I think I understand what you are getting at, but it still "tells" you the output impedance of the amplifier and that can be a useful number. You may have noticed also that JBL often uses a parallel resistor across many of their bass drivers to "help" present a more linear load to a driving amplifier.

Once again I do not 100% agree with you.

It is a number that must be treated very carefully.

Having a big damping factor can improve the bass transient and linearity but it does not mean that if an amplifier has a big damping factor it will give you big bass.

Once again it is quite a lie the way many amplifier manufacturers are printing their characteristics.

All of them claim to have the best numbers and a great sound quality.

Sound quality is never a “translation” of good numbers, if it was all amplifiers would sound great, unfortunately a lot of them, even big brands sounds …

Very little play good music.

4313B
06-19-2003, 07:53 AM
I guess you are viewing all this from a Marketing standpoint and are fed up with the Marketing hype?

Yes, there does come a point where the published distortion figures are meaningless in real world application. However, amplifier distortion is a very real phenomenon, the various types of distortion, negative feedback, etc. Seriously, if you read various articles from/about Dr. Otala you might find topics of interest. He really didn't waste his life's time on amplifier distortion just so other people could come along and say "In such a case how important is the distortion of an amplifier? Nuts …" ;)

That said, I agree with you that "selling" an amplifier based solely on the virtue of some distortion figure some Marketing person read off an engineering report they had no business seeing anyway is pretty dubious :)

"It is a number that must be treated very carefully."

Why? It's not spooky or anything, despite what Marketing would have us believe. It's just a ratio. No Holy Grail, no Blessing from the Pope, just a ratio of two numbers, and quite probably meaningless to 98% of the people who read it...

"All of them claim to have the best numbers and a great sound quality."

Economic Capitalism? :D

"Sound quality is never a “translation” of good numbers, if it was all amplifiers would sound great"

I'll buy that! :)

Obviously we're on different pages though. I have zero interest in what the Marketing folks are churning out of their propaganda machines. Damping factor, or even better, output impedence, is real, and is valid, but I personally couldn't care less what some Marketing person is doing with the numbers.

PSS AUDIO
06-19-2003, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard

Obviously we're on different pages though. I have zero interest in what the Marketing folks are churning out of their propaganda machines. Damping factor, or even better, output impedence, is real, and is valid, but I personally couldn't care less what some Marketing person is doing with the numbers.

In such a case, what numbers "sounds" good for you, and why will they make an amplifier sound well, fine, great, gorgeous?

I have just built two amplifiers with exactly the same basis; the only differences will be the bridges, balanced input IC (INA134 instead of OPA27GP), potentiometer - one from somewhere and the other one from ALPS, and different input transistors (2SA1085 instead of BC490B).

What I can say is that the measures are the same, but what I hear is completely different!

One amplifier sounds if it was raining cats and dogs, the other sounds as if it was full sunshine.

I am “bargaining” with an international audio magazine to get them test benched and a full report printed from their chief engineer, after that they will lend them to a studio and ask them what do they feel out of those two amplifiers.

That is why, numbers are just numbers …. And none of them can explain why this amplifiers sounds so good or so bad!

4313B
06-19-2003, 12:40 PM
Ok, so you ARE bummed about the fact that "numbers sell" amps then :)

I guess now you know how many engineers and designers feel when their "numbers" might not appear as "good" as a competitor's yet their product sounds "better".

As for what numbers sound good to me. I don't listen to numbers. I listen to designers and engineers such as yourself who say things like:

"I have just built two amplifiers with exactly the same basis; the only differences will be the bridges, balanced input IC (INA134 instead of OPA27GP), potentiometer - one from somewhere and the other one from ALPS, and different input transistors (2SA1085 instead of BC490B).

What I can say is that the measures are the same, but what I hear is completely different!

One amplifier sounds if it was raining cats and dogs, the other sounds as if it was full sunshine."

That I can relate to. I think I see your point. If you told me your amp had a DF of 200 and THD of 0.001% I would probably just say "neato". When you say something like what is quoted above, then it piques my interest.

"That is why, numbers are just numbers …. And none of them can explain why this amplifiers sounds so good or so bad!"

Well..... I don't know what to say about this. People just like numbers..... It's probably best not to show them any numbers at all and just let their ears decide. What a concept.

So, now, what is the output impedance of your amp? :)

PSS AUDIO
06-19-2003, 03:08 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard

That I can relate to. I think I see your point. If you told me your amp had a DF of 200 and THD of 0.001% I would probably just say "neato". When you say something like what is quoted above, then it piques my interest.

Please read the numbers, those are not from me but from several magazines who printed several test benches.

Frequency Response at 10 Watts: 15 Hz-60 000 Hz
SNR unweighted/weighted (BC490B): 98 dB/103 dB
Gain to 1 kHz - 8 ohms rated output: 31dB
Input impedance bal./unbal: 39/30/18 k-ohms
CMRR 40Hz/ 1 kHz/ 10 kHz (INA134): 84 dB/84 dB/78 dB
Rise Time: < 6 µs
Output impedance: 0,059 ohm
Damping factor 8ohms; 136
Distortion 1000 Hz/8ohms: 0,009%
IM distortion (SMPTE) at clip: 0,026%


What else can I say?

I can point a thread with full test reports but I want your agreement as a moderator (not other to think that this is just raw advertisement for what I am doing)!

PSS AUDIO
08-20-2003, 09:47 AM
For those interested in (I do not want this post to be considered as advertising and if it is I agree this message can be removed by our favourite moderator) we have just launched our own forums about PSS amplifiers!

http://www.pssaudio.com/forums

You are welcome and hope this will contribute to improve what we try doing the best; amplifiers sounding good!

And our website:

http://www.pssaudio.com

scott fitlin
08-20-2003, 10:39 AM
YES! I have been saying this for years. You CAN hear tonality differences between different brands of pots and TYPES of pots!

You can also hear differences between different brands and types of resistors and capacitors!

Yes, the NUMBERS do not tell you how an amplifier sounds! If the numbers were really any indication of how an amp sounds then McIntosh amps would sound terrible with their ratings of 0.25% THD distortion and incredibly high damping factor of 18 on my Mc2105! Quite the contrary thesae amps sound wonderful, and everybody loves vintage Mc,s!

Conversely, TOO HIGH a damping factor can actually interfere with your sound, particularly horn loaded systems! If its too high it can get stiff and sterile sounding!

Numbers do sell amps and other audio gear, but the best way to shop is by ear!

Steve Schell
08-20-2003, 03:49 PM
Scott, I agree cmpletely on the issue of damping factor. We are in good company; I ran across this paragraph the other day. It is from J.B. Lansing and J. K. Hilliard's 1945 article, "Improved Loudspeaker System for Theaters":

"Sufficient damping of the vibrating elements of the units are provided in the magnetic circuit so that it is not necessary to provide additional damping from the driving amplifiers. In the past it has been customary to adjust the amplifier output impedance to a value of approximately one-half to one-third of the average loudspeaker impedance. Improved performance can be obtained with the new loudspeaker when the amplifier and loudspeaker impedances are approximately equal."

This article was written to introduce the new Voice of the Theatre systems; the speaker units they were referring to were the 288 compression driver and 515 woofer. The input impedance of the N-500C network described in the article was 12 ohms. Sooooo, it looks like we need to fire up our relatively high output impedance tube amps when running our vintage Altec systems, if we want to be in keeping with the designers' intentions.

scott fitlin
08-20-2003, 05:59 PM
Or you can use a vintage McIntosh with its NO damping, and hear very nice sound! I like Mc,s on horns and tweeters personally!

Then of course theres Crown! Some of the amps they make now? Macro Reference with a damping factor of 20,000 to 1. Is this really neccesary to achieve good sound?

boputnam
08-20-2003, 06:42 PM
Hey, guys...

Interesting dialogue - prompted me to review the roads we travelled on this a while back. Here's some Links:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=352&highlight=damping+factor

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63&perpage=15&highlight=damping%20factor&pagenumber=1

Yea, I know the threads here get a bit frayed, but the cloth woven is oh so interesting.

I'm personally using QSC's in bi-amp for both highs and lows, and cannot imagine anything finer. They simply control those 2245H's with uncanny precision and depth. But maybe the highs should get special treatment... :hmm:

I feel an eBay urge coming on :banghead:

Comments?

scott fitlin
08-20-2003, 07:30 PM
QSC rates their amps damping factor >200. Compared to some of Crowns amps this isnt exorbitantly high. Its definitely good enough!

I find that amps that have extremely high damping factors dont really sound that great with horn loaded bass!

BGW isnt as high as Crown and yet they make what I consider to be tight, taut low end.

boputnam
08-20-2003, 07:43 PM
Thanks, Scott.

The two QSC's I run (CX302 and CX502, top and bottom, respectively) are rated at >500 damping factor. This seems smart when aggregating the impedance of the speaker leads and the transducers into the overall impedance of the circuit - certainly for the LF.

So, give me the perspective on how/why this is not optimized for horn-loaded situations? Maybe tube amps are "sweeter/smoother" for the high-end?

scott fitlin
08-20-2003, 07:57 PM
If the amp has an extremely high damping factor it will have a really tight grip on the woofers movement! Now, control is one thing, but if its to tight horns dont sound natural! The bass tends to get hard sounding! I have also read that if damping is too high it can cause smearing!

For some reason, the amps i tend to favor for running my bass horns never seen to be the ones with an extremely high damping factor!

These days I seem to be liking BGW on sub bass and Bryston on 15,s! Both brands rate their amps as >500. Unlike some other amps that are 1000 and higher! I kind of feel, that while they can design an amp to meet certain numerical figures, maybe, just maybe, there is a point at which the amp starts to lose its musicality!

Charley Rummel
08-20-2003, 08:09 PM
I'm a tube head (sounds better than vacuum head) and I've built a number of projects over the years.

I have a stereo power amp I built a few years ago, mostly out of surplus. The whole of the circuit is a hybrid utilizing pieces of other circuits I've felt were good designs: the power stage (not the power supply) is push-pull parallel beam-powered tetrodes, biased pure class A, which drives an output transformer (secondary impedances are typical 4, 8 and 16 ohms); the phase inverter and driver stages were styled after an obscure 50 year old circuit I came across once, which I forget the name of (not like the type commonly found in guitar amps or ultralinear circuits); no elaborate coupling of the stages, though there are stabilization circuits in the power amp section; completely open loop (no negative feedback circuits); and an otherwise relatively common voltage divider network design for the power supply (with two large power transformers wired in paralell, and oversized capacitors). I have a provision on it which allows for adjusting the contour by introducing a tuning circuit in the input triode plate supply.

It has a nice even frequency response from 25 Hz, develops incredible dynamics, and is CLEAN and FLUID at all levels! This amp will crank like hell and not break up at all. Overall sound is amazing. I have had numerous and intense praizes from individuals, sound pros and audiofiles alike.

Who cares about the numbers. Some of the numbers I get when I've bench tested this thing would make anyone the laughing stock of the AES. The only data I will share here is that It will develop 80 watts per channel before clipping on a 1000 Hz sinewave.

Regards,
Charley

boputnam
08-20-2003, 08:13 PM
I've not had the opportunity to A/B too many set-ups yet, but to my ears, these QSC's would be very hard to beat. When I think I hear harshness in the highs, I swap sources and find it mix-related. Many producers, simply shouldn't be... ;)

The LF and ULF is extremely tight, and responsive, full. No smearing here (hear...?). I'd used four of these bad-boys in my FOH rack and they were lauded by all not too drunk to still critique. And, they simply use no current - never once blew a "20amp" circuit, with Soundcraft 24-channel board, 4 QSC's, 3 dbx 1231's, gates and comp/limiters. They run cool, and reliable. And, as Mike Caldwell posted, they are real easy on the back - they are virtually weightless. I used to set the PA up and park a chair in the sweet spot and just roll the CD's until Set time. Phenomenal imaging. (EV Eliminator mains).

So, I'll watch this Thread for other's experiences, but in the meanwhile, this 1,000 watt configuration has riveted my attention.

And, hey - Mr. Rummel! Next time through Chi-town, what say I taxi over and get an audition, hey? I would love to hear that creation. Wow.

Thanks,

scott fitlin
08-20-2003, 10:24 PM
QSC isnt to highly damped! When I talk about overdamping Im speaking of Crowns new products like the CTs series which has damping of >3000 and the Macro Reference, 20,000 to 1.

Tight bass, and too tight are very different things! My BGW,s give very taut low end, but dont sound hard! I have heard various models of QSC and they are pretty good!

It also depends on the speakers you have! Ported boxes will like a somewhat higher damping factor! But how much is the question! As has already been stated, anything above 17 and your in the game! To me >500 works. If your using an amp thats a little higher, thats cool too. But Ive heard some amps that are so tight they sound hard! Thats what I dont like!

And of course, everythings a matter of preference!

PSS AUDIO
08-21-2003, 01:11 AM
Damping factor, what a nonsense...

I always thought, said and wrote that this number is one of the fakest numbers invented by sellers with the approval of audio “engineers”!

More this number is gigantic; more the sound is squeezed and not natural. There is so much control that the speakers cannot move as free as they should do, you are loosing all the warmness of the signal and this makes a horn sound hard and aggressive.

The damping factor must be over 20 and 100 is already a very good number!

No one can imagine, unless using a bulb amplifier, how smooth a horn can sound.

A transistor amplifier can sound as smooth as a bulb amplifier in the mids and offer a better dynamic than a bulb amplifier.

Because big names are unable to build something new and really innovative in the amplifier industry, they are just launching each year new amplifiers with better numbers and they force “ignorant” persons to think that if the numbers are good the amplifier will be!

I personally think that in the last 30 years or more there were NO major improvement made in the quality of amplifiers (and other audio items too) and that a non complementary (using only NPN output bipolar devices) AB amplifier is the best compromise for a sound reinforcement system and why not in an audiophile use too.

But one must work very hard to make it sound clean!

The only improvements made in the last decades were in reliability, size and cost of amplifiers.

Remember Phase Linear amplifiers. They sounded quite well, were big and were smoking for no reasons.

I do not agree white some of you using big name of PA amplifiers as I do think that they are just good to make some noise even if they claim being the king of the audio industry …

Some of our customers think that our latest 9D amplifier is sexy as a queen!

Since years now the only credo is how many watts can an amplifier deliver?

1 000, 1 500, 2 000, 5 000 or perhaps 10 000 watts on a short circuited load of 0.1 ohm?

Using speakers with a 2 ohm load is one of the biggest nonsense I ever heard, it is so close to the ground that you cannot have any dynamic, in such a case the only thing one must do is to increase the power and so on.

Lots of amplifier manufacturers have just forgotten that making noise with what they call powerful amplifiers is just made to cover the weakness of something else (why does a dog shouts when you are facing him? Not to scare you, as in fact the dog is scared, so that is why he is shouting).

Lots of manufacturers are claiming to have designed an amplifier with the lowest of the lowest distortion this apparatus ever had. This means, in their mind, that it is a good apparatus. This makes me laugh out loud. One must know that an excellent speaker has about 1% distortion, a very good ear has the same and that the room will also deliver the same amount of distortion! This makes a total of at least 3% of distortion. They are just fooling you, and themselves by the same way.

All the benefit from ALTEC and JBL went into smoke, as it is not on the power of an amplifier that one must play with to increase the SPL of a sound system but on the quality and the SPL of a speaker.

But this is by far more difficult to achieve than playing with the power of an amplifier and it was done 50 years ago.

As one must create something new to sell it otherwise what is the use buying something that exists before we were born!

That is why I claim that we, at PSS AUDIO, sound different!

boputnam
08-21-2003, 07:39 AM
:duck:

:duck:

:duck:

I think that's all of 'em. Whew! Tough sledding out here!

I may (make that: "are") indeed be ignorant about lots of stuff, but not about what sounds good. I dragged the QSC's into the home on a lark, and was stunned by their clarity, depth and imaging. It's as if the listener is in the room with the performer - certainly much of the credit goes to the 4345's, but they cannot do their part alone.

Oh, and :duck: numbers don't wow me at all - but do provide a useful starting point, IMMHO.

I disagree completely on it being "wrong" to employ "big name" PA amplifiers" in home rigs. MY ears tell me you're just not correct on that, but then these are only my ears. I thought this a crazy notion and didn't do it for years, but when I finally gave these QSC's a try, I was most impressed.

The "1,000 watts" I threw-in for reaction - guess it worked! :duck: I find it laughable myself that I've got 1,000 watts in the dang family room! Ha! That's nuts! But, I don't run these at high SPL's (now that would have the dogs shouting... ;) ), and surely don't exceed 20-25watts per channel output, ever.

If I ever get a chance to A/B one of your wonderful creations, Yuri, I will enjoy it. Until then, I'm quite blissful, and all who come 'round are wowed too, and they are even less swayed by numbers than I might be. ;)

As a sage once posted:
Obviously we're on different pages though. I have zero interest in what the Marketing folks are churning out of their propaganda machines. Damping factor, or even better, output impedence, is real, and is valid, but I personally couldn't care less what some Marketing person is doing with the numbers.

Keep the reports coming in!

boputnam
08-21-2003, 08:16 AM
I omitted that in my bi-amp set-up I'm using, the QSC's are 200 watts per channel for the MF/HF/UHF, and 300 watts per channel for the LF. That is a surprisingly and fortuitously nice match for the 4345's.

Just because it aggregates to 1,000 watts, doesn't mean that it's "too much". It seems "ample".

That's enough outa me...
:slink:

PSS AUDIO
08-21-2003, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
I omitted that in my bi-amp set-up I'm using, the QSC's are ...


I was reported from several customers that they do not sound, this brand and the other one, the king, as good as other “small” brands....

I do not say that those big names are crap, but for the money and the name they carry, they should be the best of what can be done, but it is not...

PSS AUDIO
08-21-2003, 08:56 AM
Originally posted by boputnam
I disagree completely on it being "wrong" to employ "big name" PA amplifiers" in home rigs. MY ears tell me you're just not correct on that, but then these are only my ears. I thought this a crazy notion and didn't do it for years, but when I finally gave these QSC's a try, I was most impressed.


The problem is what is compared to what with, in the middle a good speaker.

If you had a crappy amplifier, the QSC will sound great and you will think that the band performs in front of you.

Turn your QSC for a GAMUT amplifier and you will think that the band is behind the speakers far away but extremely close to you, that you have silk in your ears, that the bass are coming down on your feet.

boputnam
08-22-2003, 05:52 PM
"If you had a crappy amplifier" :bs:

Regardless, I am not adverse to trying a GAMUT, but the QSC's aren't going anywhere. "Turn 'em in"...? What 're you, nuts!? :nutz: Ha! But you are VERY passionate about your brand! Cool...

:coolness:

Hell, I was just thinking: if you lived nearby - even near Toledo, maybe ;) - I ship you a QSC CX502 and trust you to return it, even after you realize there truly is merit to both their engineering, and the reported performance.

Oh well, never mind... :spin:

Ian Mackenzie
08-23-2003, 12:14 AM
Hmm...I love this sort of topic and in the end think power counts in itself.

My experience is that bigger amps certainly pay dividends with the large format JBLs because they are so clean and linear you can actually hear lesser amps mis behave.

Power seems to give depth and you can actually see right down the throat of a Sax with a nice big amp on monitors like the 4343 , 4345 & 4355. The micro dymanics that skate along the leading edge appear to hold the clues to spatial details that create the life excitment we live for.

On the subject of damping factor the jury is still out here fo me.

Recently I switched to a 100 watt pure class A design that is fully balanced ie there is only hot and cold output , no earth.

The damping factor is only 30 or so but its delivers the tightest most dyamic and life like bass I've ever heard. The amp performs equally well in every other respect.

This could be because there is only a touch of global negative feedback and the power supply is not in series with the current going the the speakers, but this is only a theory.

The amp is a diy Passlabs effort based on merging the best the aclaimed X Series and Aleph.

Ian

PSS AUDIO
08-23-2003, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Power seems to give depth and you can actually see right down the throat of a Sax with a nice big amp on monitors like the 4343 , 4345 & 4355. The micro dymanics that skate along the leading edge appear to hold the clues to spatial details that create the life excitment we live for.


From my own experience, I must say that I always preferred listening my favourite tunes with an amplifier able to deliver 1000W while I only asked for 10!

Since several months now I am listening my 4350 with a 300W amplifier modified with a bigger transformer (in fact the amplifier delivers 300 W + 300 W as it is a double mono as all the amplifiers I am working on, but is built with two 800 Watts transformers and 2x60 000 MF in the mains).

At the time being it is quite hard answering witch one sounds better than the other (it is the same schematic, same PCB, all components are from the same origin and so on, only some resistors do change).

What is certain is that the amount of capacitors and their quality, the presence of polypropylene capacitors wired in parallel with the mains capacitors, the power of the transformer and its quality, the type of the bridge makes half of the quality of an amplifier.

Charley Rummel
08-24-2003, 07:19 PM
Hi, Bo:

Sorry I didn't reply earlier. Let me know when you plan to be in this neck of the woods again.

Regards,
Charley

Steve Schell
08-24-2003, 10:53 PM
Another thought to add to this damping factor (damnping factor?) discussion:

In some older article I have somewhere in the files, the author states that the ideal amplifier damping factor for a particular speaker is that which will return the speaker's moving element to rest in minimum time after it has been displaced from its position of rest. He uses the analogy of a swinging pendulum, with a tail swinging in a trough of viscous fluid. If there is no fluid (no damping), the pendulum will oscillate for a long time before coming to rest. If the fluid in the trough is too thick, the pendulum will take an excessive time to find its way back to center. Somewhere between these extremes would be a fluid with the correct viscosity to allow the pendulum to come to rest in minimum time.

Perhaps this is why a super duper high damping factor transistor amp can make the bass sound overdamped, even strangled and anemic, with a high sensitivity speaker. Again, referring to the Lansing - Hilliard article, maybe an amplifier with a higher output impedance (lower damping factor) will allow reproduction with greater fidelity to the waveform in a particular circumstance.

One other thought- Hal Cox knew Jim Lansing in the late 1940s. Hal told me that Jim mentioned to him that keeping a few one and two ohm resistors in one's pocket was a good idea, that adding them in series with the speaker lead would allow for the adjustment of damping factor for the best overall sound.

4313B
08-25-2003, 05:28 AM
"One other thought- Hal Cox knew Jim Lansing in the late 1940s. Hal told me that Jim mentioned to him that keeping a few one and two ohm resistors in one's pocket was a good idea, that adding them in series with the speaker lead would allow for the adjustment of damping factor for the best overall sound."

Hi Steve,

We used to do that very thing with the 124/2203 with it's ultra-low Q. There are mathematical formulas which one can use to figure out just how much series resistance is needed to achieve a specific LF response curve. Of course, computer aided design has come a long way in that it allows one to figure out how to control damping via enclosure size, tuning, and fiber fill so that series resistors aren't necessarily required. Varying the DCR of the LF inductor also can be beneficial.

Ian Mackenzie
08-25-2003, 06:29 AM
Without going off the tech deep end here regards Damping factor

Most large solid state amps are class A/B and the power supplies are as rule unregulated, usually with bridge rectifier and then filtered with a capacitor ~~large electrolytic.

Depending on the design, some have a stiff supply with a large transformer and large filter caps, this leads to low ERS and low supply impedance. The power supply behaves more as a pure current/voltage source.

This and a high current output stage with numerous parrellelled transisters and negative feedback leads to a high damping and clamping effect.

However, not all amps are created equal, hence the tonal difference.

My view is that the speaker, particularly if bass reflex, should operate as a system that takes into account the X resistance of the amp, cables and DCR of the crossover. Speaker designers therefore take a punt on what they think is the "norm" for the amps output impediance/dcr of the cables etc.

The effect of series DCR is particularly noticable at the FB of the box and is integral to the box design along with box damping.

The classic example is the 4345, the tuning while empirically based considers the DCR of the woofer choke, about 0.50 ohms according the Greg Timbers and was fine tuned after extensive listening tests!!

The thing is some of you are referring to a damping factors of 1000, that is 0.008 ohms, so how can the speaker sound right with 0.50 ohms? A lower dcr choke doesn't work thats why I asked G T.

The reason is the total Q of the system QTS, which includes the driver mechanical (Qm), the electrical (Qes) and the compliance of the driver form a complex relationship with the box alignment parameters called Alpha and H to arrive at the box Volume (including the effects of filling) and port tuning.

Yes, it is a complex tricky business, but thats where the black art and romance begins.

Ian

4313B
08-25-2003, 06:38 AM
"A lower dcr choke doesn't work thats why I asked G T."

In what respect doesn't it work?

Ian Mackenzie
08-25-2003, 07:00 AM
The bass sound strange, not boomy as such and masked the midrange would have required a reduction in real volume of the box which did not appeal to me.

So I simply inserted a small value of dc resistance with the choke and bingo. the whole system snapped into line.

Ian

4313B
08-25-2003, 07:28 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that conversation :)

PSS AUDIO
08-25-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Yes, it is a complex tricky business, but thats where the black art and romance begins.

Ian

Hello Ian,

It's better that black art begins rather than black mail...

As you are in Australia, even if Melbourne is not that close to Sydney, if you are interested in, you can get in touch with my good friend Billy Mawer from NTC and I am sure he will lend you a PSS amplifier he loves for their sound quality, as out of all the A/B tests he makes, the winner is always the same one (ask him for a 9D amplifier it is the latest model, he will have some by 10 days time)...

The winner claims that a damping factor of 100/150 is good enough.

I let you guess what is the brand of this amplifier!

If ever this test is achieved I think that quite good numbers will be interested reading your impressions!

If you want to get in touch with NTC, please read their address:

NETWORK ENTERTAINEMENT
Unit 2 98 Old Pittwater road
Brookvale
2100 NSW

Phone : + 61 2 9905 5997
Fax : + 61 2 9905 9440
Contact : Billy MAWER
Email : australia@pssaudio.com
http://www.network-et.com

Ian Mackenzie
08-25-2003, 02:12 PM
Wow Yuri,

I 'll follow this up,

Thankyou

Ian

4313B
08-25-2003, 02:42 PM
I just checked www.pssaudio.com and wasn't able to find a distributor in the U.S.A.

PSS AUDIO
08-25-2003, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Giskard
I just checked www.pssaudio.com and wasn't able to find a distributor in the U.S.A.

Unfortunately at the time being we have none!

We are seeking for a "small" distributor, if one of you are in touch with someone interested in please let me know!

MikeM
08-26-2003, 06:08 PM
Dis regard amp specs for the most part. Usally the amps with the highest distortion will sound better on the highend side.
The spec Ive found to be impotant Is SLEW RATE. The speed of the ampifier Any amp that has something around 250 will have spectacular speed in transistor designs.:smthsail:

4313B
08-28-2003, 12:54 PM
"Damping factor, what a nonsense..."

Ok, let's try this again... damping factor is a ratio of two numbers. Nothing nonsensical about it. Nothing spooky. No super secret spy shit decoder ring required. It's just a ratio of two numbers. Having gotten that out of the way, if a person wants to buy an amplifier based solely on some damping factor specification then they are only cheating themselves.

"The winner claims that a damping factor of 100/150 is good enough."

Maybe, maybe not. Some loudspeakers sound great with amps spec'd with a DF around 20. Other loudspeakers sound great with amps spec'd with a DF up to 100 or 150.

"TRY EVERYTHING you can beg, borrow, and steal."

Dr. Electron has posted this on another thread. This is a fact. No amount of bookreading or specification sheet reading can take the place of experience. A particular amp might sound great with one particular loudspeaker and not so great with a another loudspeaker.

Tom Roper
08-28-2003, 03:24 PM
1.) Damping factor is the ratio of the speaker inpedance divided by the amplifier output impedance.

2.) It is a consequence of negative feedback, or the motor's regeneration of current back to the amplfier.

3.) So if you short the speaker terminals and push on the cone, you feel some resistance.

4.) Damping factor is a measure of the amplifier's ability to short the speaker output.

Example:

A speaker has 2 ohm impedance. A damping factor of 2000 would indicate an amplifier output impedance of 1 milli-ohm. But what counts is the damping factor at the speaker input terminal, which would include the consequence of the dc resistance of the speaker cables. If I'm wrong, there's a pretty good cottage industry of monster cables living a lie.

Conclusion:

So the point about damping factor, specifically too much it, is that it should be easily manipulated by using longer length speaker wires, or smaller gauge to mitigate the effect of excessive damping, if it exists. If the speaker wire dc resistance was 0.1 ohm, your damping factor at the speaker input is now 20. So I'm struggling to understand why having too much damping factor in an amplifier is a problem, whereas it's obvious if you don't have enough, there's not anything you can do about it except get a new amp.

Chan
08-31-2003, 10:59 AM
I'm 4343B & Crown MA2402 user in japan trying to make my system be tight base sound. but, I'ts not so easy.

proberbly,amplifier is a Key.
Compared to another some amplifier,I think Crown MA2402 is better. The amp's D.F. ratio is 1000. but, it my be a only one aspect of the amp. That's not everything. because,amplifier K2 by crown have more greater D.F. ratio 3000. Is it more tight sound ? proberbly No! It's cofusing.

I'm thiking the best way to get tight sound from 4343B is to use multi-4amplifier system by crown MA2402 not 3600VZ. 3600VZ have a little worm sound. 4 means brige operation.

Speaker wires is important. A wire‚P‚T‚ƒ¶^‚ is easily compared from more grater guaged wires.Obiusly, smaller is better! but,I'ts one aspect too.:confused:

4313B
08-31-2003, 11:17 AM
Interesting! :) Another 4343B owner :)

I used Citation 19's with my 4343B's. Stereo Citiation 19 with passive network, bridged Citation 19's with passive network, and bi-amped Citation 19's with the 5234A. I was never inclinded to hunt more Citation 19's down to try bridged/bi-amped :D The DF was plenty rated at 125 (8 ohms). But that wasn't what made that amp a killer back then :)

One cool feature was that the Citation 19 could dump a whopping 3.7 amperes into 8 ohms and 6.3 amperes into 4 ohms! That's nothing now, but back then it was the bomb :)

Anyway...

PSS AUDIO
08-31-2003, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Tom Roper
Conclusion: ... . If the speaker wire dc resistance was 0.1 ohm, your damping factor at the speaker input is now 20. So I'm struggling to understand why having too much damping factor in an amplifier is a problem, whereas it's obvious if you don't have enough, there's not anything you can do about it except get a new amp.

I was waiting such an answer since days and days and finally it came!

Let me remind you that taking the same wire length with the same DC resistance with a damping factor of 200 (it means that the internal resistance is 0,01 ohm), you will then have a remaining damping factor of 18,181818181818 (2/0,11).

Can one let me know what is the difference between a damping factor of 20 and 18,18181818?

This means by evidence that the damping factor has no meaning at all, that it is an invented measure used by sellers ignoring that adding the internal resistance of the wire ruins all the efforts of what I do not call an engineer in electronics, I just call him a second class technician just able wiring a plug on the AC cord of this particular amplifier claiming a damping factor of 2000!

It is the same with distortion and the memory of it like all other weird measuring tools all unable to qualify what the word sound good means!

scott fitlin
08-31-2003, 01:18 PM
Different amps do in fact sound different! Some amps are known for their ability to produce deep, tight, and tuneful bass! Other amps have a special magic in the midrange but dont do well at bass!

So, if damping factor has none, if any consequence on sound quality, what does?

We put too much emphasis on Damping factor, I agree! But it does have some significance!

Tom Roper
08-31-2003, 01:41 PM
If you consider 10 foot lengths of 4 awg copper wire with dc resistance of .2485 ohms/1000 ft, your net damping factor would be 573 for the amplifier and speaker wire.

I think it matters some. To what degree is the debate. Personally, I don't bother with expensive monster speaker cables because I'm not persuaded by it.

But amplfiers are voltage source devices. If a positive output voltage causes forward excursion of the speaker cone, when the positive output voltage is halved, the back EMF of the speaker caused by forward momentum dumps regenerative energy back to the amplifier. The amount is small because port tuning, speaker suspension provide most of the damping mechanically. The amplifier has no active control over what remains. And because the amount is small, output impedance is the only factor that causes any damping by an amplifier, and is the only parameter for an amplifier that describes damping performance. Because that number is small, it's more easily understood and compared by using the reciprocal, i.e. "damping factor."

Chan
09-01-2003, 03:27 AM
I read that D.F. factor is the ratio {speackers real impedace/[amps output impedance+wire impedance]} .
Here is the link about DF(maybe all in this member already knew?)

http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/amps/damping%20factor.pdf

I think DF have a some value for a fine sounds and can't say meaningless.
Maybe,It's difficult to design low output impedance circuit.
If Power means voltage*current,there needs more & more capbility to providing enough current when driving 15 inch woofers.
It's my experience.
At least, To driving 4343B with tight & powerfull sound I needed MA2402, not MA1202 in spite of which can provide 285W+285W power!
There was a obious difference bitween 2402 to 1202.
One is embiant sounds. 2402 can express enough surrownding atmosphear.
Two is clear mid sounds. especialliy for male vocal.
Three is base sounds. only the enough power can drive Hip base sounds. it may be over 500W+500W! so it needs MA2402.

When I used accuphase M-100 mono power amps, Power was enouph but it had a little caractor.
Thats why I changed to Crown PA amps .

Anyway, in my opinion, There needs over 500W+500W & DF1000 for diving 4343B with hi-fi sounds , I feel.
but I know power & DF is only one side elements of measurement.

4313B
09-01-2003, 06:07 AM
Page 1/2

4313B
09-01-2003, 06:08 AM
Page 2/2

4313B
09-01-2003, 06:32 AM
More George :)
Page 1/3

4313B
09-01-2003, 06:33 AM
More George :)
Page 2/3

4313B
09-01-2003, 06:34 AM
More George :)
Page 3/3

4313B
09-01-2003, 07:28 AM
I was reading through one of Dr. Electron's posts and cropped this out of a manual he kindly linked to:

Tom Roper
09-01-2003, 09:31 AM
What does he know? He is a paid shill ! ;)

Chan
09-01-2003, 10:24 PM
QUOTE]Originally posted by Giskard

>I used Citation 19's with my 4343B's.

Oh, Itfs fine. :)
Ifve heard that American dislike 43series monitor. Is it true?
Many of people like furniture-like model?
Anyway, It may be just fun.

>Stereo Citiation 19 with passive network, bridged Citation 19's with passive network, and bi-amped Citation 19's with the 5234A.

Great! It will be ideal. I will do same way by crown someday.

>One cool feature was that the Citation 19 could dump a whopping 3.7 amperes into 8 ohms and 6.3 amperes into 4 ohms! That's nothing now, but back then it was the bomb

Must be It wasc.
Nowadays many amps can draw more current.
I donft know how to design hi-fi amps exactly.
But, some amps is fitted for large sized monitor, some amps are not,thatfs it.
:)

Ian Mackenzie
09-02-2003, 02:08 AM
I note on the more recent JBL Project manuals JBL mentions care of all contacts and regular cleaning for best electrical conductivity.

Others claim cable terminations and equally important as low loss cables and often impact more frequently on sound quality (particularly bass where high currents flow) than we would care to realise.

Ian

Ps I recall the Citation 19 paired with a set of JBL 4311's at a semi pro demo with an Otari multi track recorder about 20 odd years. In mean WOW.

It was mind blowing to hear such compact boxes shack the crap out of us like the Wrath of God. I figure the Citation had a hand in it.

Chan
09-02-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
I note on the more recent JBL Project manuals JBL mentions care of all contacts and regular cleaning for best electrical conductivity.

Ian

that's true.
regular cleaning is so important not a tiny matter.
about measurement?, loss will be very very little.
but,there is a surprising difference in actual sound.

I use original connection and internal code(in case of 4343B).
because, it may be tuned by them for original sound.
I dont mind what connection is used :)
but about speacker wires , I use low impedance OFC cable,but not expensive.

My equipment is this.

tascam M-50 mixer
otari Mx-5050-8track
studer a810-2track
tascam c-1 2track casset deck
JVC eq-7070 phono EQ
JVC sea-7070 graphic EQ
lexicon mpx-? delay
acmron(crown) MA2402 MT1201
yamaha PC-1000
JBL 4343BWX
JBL SF-15
JBL 4301BWX

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 04:11 AM
Hello to all of you …

HERVEM will take part to a PSS amplifier test and I hope that he will enjoy it and that he will post here his feedback!

I will forward you several links were testers will print their judgment (it will be French written unfortunately but it may be translated – not by me as I may modify their words).

This will give you an idea about what we speak since several weeks now!

Alex Lancaster
09-18-2003, 05:32 AM
Pls have it translated, surely, most of Us can´t read French well enough, so Yr effort would be wasted.

Alex.

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 06:03 AM
You can read some feedback on our forum boards "What do they think/say about PSS amplifiers"!

PSS Forums (http://www.pssaudio.com/forums)


It is not that new but it is not that old too...

I hope that in a forthright I will have the first feedback about our latest test made with 6 audiophile/diyers.

IDF
09-18-2003, 11:45 AM
« I will forward you several links were testers will print their judgment (it will be French written unfortunately but it may be translated – not by me as I may modify their words).
This will give you an idea about what we speak since several weeks now! »
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

Hummm…
Being French, I have been able to read the review tests about PSS stuff..
I don’t like to sound negative but that looks like a medium quality karaoke-like.
The prices they are sold are cheap, abradabrant to the actually high labour and social costs in France.

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by IDF
I don’t like to sound negative but that looks like a medium quality karaoke-like.
The prices they are sold are cheap, abradabrant to the actually high labour and social costs in France.

Shame or laugh at you, you have the choice:

Have you ever-tried one; have you ever-heard one to write such nonsense’s?

Did you ever have in your hands an amplifier with such a brilliant balanced input as ours?

PSS amplifiers are compared to audiophile amplifiers and works even better than well-known brands.

That is why they are sold in more than 60 countries!

Our Swedish distributor thinks that PSS amplifiers sound better than a Hafler amplifier and cost half of its price!

And so on!

If you have a high speed Internet connexion, just follow this link and you will read the latest test bench printed on a PSS amplifier, English written.

http://www.pssaudio.com/presse/BESONO-500US-2003.PDF

If you think that an item must be cost-effective to be good, then you still have a lot to learn.

High labour in France can be easily supported with a well designed item, and our amplifier do not need more than one hour to be built from scratch.

In such a case why the hell do you think we need to go somewhere over there, in the Far East, to get our amplifiers built!

But one must know that French people do not like what is French, they think that what is made overseas is obviously better.

The main difference between French and other, all of them saying that they are the best; others first buy the local production while French don’t.

By the way, remember the bird, the emblem of France, the “coq”, it is the only bird able to sing both feet in the mud.

Monsieur vous un triste sire, simplement méprisable, ne me répondez pas je vous ignore.

Translation: You are a poor guy, just miserable; do not answer me you will be ignored.

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 12:35 PM
For those reading Spanish (others may understand what is said about our quality compared to very well known brands):

RE: Llegó la bestia... PSS 2400

Pues si como dice Eduardo "llego la bestia PSS2400", y afirmo el comentario, es un amplificador de una rigurosa construcción, nada que ver con otras marcas de "alto nivel" como crown o crest, basta con ver su interior para imaginarse como se escucha, ya lo instale lo probe a menos de su 25% de capacidad con un par de bocinas TL3252 de Yorkville, suena perfecto, no es necesario alterar el sonido con EQ el solo brinda un perfecto balance de tonalidades en la musica, graves excelentes, definidos, claros y robustos, Medios claros, sin lastimar, potentes, Augudos nada brillantes, no chillones, no te desquisian, no saturados, en resumen un excelente amplificador para grandes cantidas de presion sonora, esten pendientes para la desmostración oficial de León Audio e Iluminación, sera un evento con excelente sonido a escalas mayores.

Saludos

This is the original link: http://miarroba.com/foros/ver.php?temaid=968340&foroid=136853&PHPSESSID=40170c8a99ee88031b4f2f5a295da597

boputnam
09-18-2003, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by PSS AUDIO
Shame or laugh at you, you have the choice:

By the way, remember the bird, the emblem of France...is the only bird able to sing both feet in the mud.

You are a poor guy, just miserable; do not answer me you will be ignored. Hey, uh, Yuri, easy-does-it, eh?

IDF posted his opinion, and he's entitled - as are you. So far as we know, IDF was being objective and not marketing/selling anything. If he is selling/promoting, it is certainly not obvious, and he was quite polite. :yes:

Maybe it would be easier if you realize that most of us here care ONLY about JBL - transducers, application, repair and most of all, the lore.

The only comment I have is that you should have started this Thread in "Marketplace" - that is where it truly belonged. Regardless, it has been very informative, and remains interesting. :hmm:

Now, can you go over the bird-in-the-mud thing again - that lost me... ;)

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2003, 01:24 PM
No no,

You miss the point,

(If you get shat on the head by a passing bird thats good luck)

I think everyones entitled to be passionate about their product provided its in the right spirit and has some benefit to the uninitiated, but marketing belongs in the marketplace.

Ian:eek:

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by boputnam
IDF posted his opinion, and he's entitled - as are you.

Of course all of us can and must post his very own opinion, but I apologize, this is a direct critic from someone who never had in his hands what he is speaking about and to justify his words says, as it is inexpensive, it cannot be good!

Just nonsense’s that I cannot let go through.

If all the messages posted and not directly related to JBL are pulled out the boards, I doubt that there would be lot left…

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by boputnam
The only comment I have is that you should have started this Thread in "Marketplace" - that is where it truly belonged.

I never intended and whished to promote PSS AUDIO on this board.

I always asked if I could post test results before doing it (read my previous posts).

As several readers were or seemed to be interested in PSS AUDIO quality, I thought that they might be interested about a test going on and that a feedback would be appreciated.

If this is too much, I ask my account to be closed and I will definitively quit the place but never will I accept that an ignorant person can post an opinion without knowing what he is speaking about.

boputnam
09-18-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by PSS AUDIO
I never intended and whished to promote PSS AUDIO on this board. I always asked if I could post test results before doing it (read my previous posts). You have been very helpful in explaining much amplifier jargon, and pointing out what really matters!


As several readers were or seemed to be interested in PSS AUDIO quality, I thought that they might be interested about a test going on and that a feedback would be appreciated. It was and has been very, very interesting.

IDF admitted he had only READ the reviews, and so I think we will all keep that in perspective. He did credit - I think - PSS with having good prices, especially since they are made in France with its higher costs. I don't know - I'm waiting for a chance to test PSS myself! :yes:


If this is too much, I ask my account to be closed and I will definitively quit the place but never will I accept that an ignorant person can post an opinion without knowing what he is speaking about. Nope, not possible! No way! Your input has been very helpful, as I said (at least to me :D ). I was only hoping you wouldn't get too upset that someone posted their views which didn't agree with yours. I don't know who is right, but don't think either of you "ignorant" - audio preference is all about personal opinion.

Me? I LOVE AlNiCo motors! :D

boputnam
09-18-2003, 01:55 PM
Aw heck, Yuri...

I jumped in and tried to save you from getting upset - all I done is make you mad at me and the Forum! When IDF posted that "review" I felt :duck: because it was sure to make you mad.

Anyway, I'll just delete myself outa this spat, and hope you two find common ground... :slink:

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2003, 02:00 PM
Yuri,

I personally love your commentary regards amplifier design, I myself now a class A preacher and I am sure there is much black art and romance with amplifiers that can entice all us JBL nutters before nailing our ears completely full of holes...muhhahahaah.. So please hang around....

JBL have a reputation for this in the non JBL camps and I'm sure the same holds true for amps. No doubt you has seen the site but have a look at diyaudio.com......they spend night and day talking about it.

I also have a great friend Hugh Dean of ASKA amplifier fame who I am sure would love to correspond with you on the merits of amplifier design. Please send me a pm for Hughs email address.

Ian:smthsail:

boputnam
09-18-2003, 02:04 PM
Hey, Ian...

Wanna do a favour for a Yank?

NETWORK ENTERTAINEMENT
Unit 2 98 Old Pittwater road
Brookvale
2100 NSW

Phone : + 61 2 9905 5997
Fax : + 61 2 9905 9440
Contact : Billy MAWER
Email : australia@pssaudio.com
http://www.network-et.com

It would be great to get your ears around one of these. Maybe with Yuri's blessing, they'd let you taste-test it at home! :yes:

I'm in for expenses. Anyone else?

4313B
09-18-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by boputnam
Me? I LOVE AlNiCo motors! :D
Now that's ignorant! :rotfl:

PSS AUDIO
09-18-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by boputnam
IDF admitted he had only READ the reviews ...

And he thinks that he can write:

I don’t like to sound negative but that looks like a medium quality karaoke-like.

The prices they are sold are cheap, abradabrant to the actually high labour and social costs in France.

I can admit all critics from someone knowing what he is speaking about (I had in hands one of your last amplifiers and I must say that changing your knobs and potentiometers was a good idea as the one you used before were from a poor quality; the sand paint you use is great but the rear label does not stick well, I damaged my hands as there is no handles on your amps, etc.).

Never will I admit that someone, just by reading a post, looking at a schematic or whatever can place a negative opinion as a positive one!

As sound quality cannot be translated by numbers, it is a lie saying that this amplifier is a medium quality karaoke amplifier (everybody knows that karaoke amplifiers are the poorest amplifiers in sound quality).

One can and must speak about what he really knows.

The price argument is as poor as the post.

Because I have a ROLEX, your OMEGA is just pure dirt. It sounds quite the same (ROLEX is by far more expensive than an OMEGA watch) than the pricing of PSS amplifiers!


Originally posted by boputnam
Nope, not possible! No way! Your input has been very helpful, as I said (at least to me :D ). I was only hoping you wouldn't get too upset ...

Upset I was ...

Ian Mackenzie
09-18-2003, 03:10 PM
Hey Bo you Yank,

This place is a industrial zone now, not more amplifiers please , chickie babs is already frightened.

Maybe in a week or two.

Ian

boputnam
09-18-2003, 03:15 PM
Nice!

:thmbsup:

IDF
09-19-2003, 10:09 PM
do not answer me you will be ignored.
__________________________________________________ __

That's an easy way.
Please, could you offer a translation in English of these rewiew tests :

SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai de l'amplificateur SAP 2300 de la marque PSS



SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai du filtre actif SEX 2318 de la marque PSS



SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai de l'amplificateur SAP 2200P de la marque PSS



SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai de l'amplificateur SAP 2120 de la marque PSS



SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai de l'enceinte LSE 400 de la marque PSS



SONO MAGASINE
Banc d'essai de l'amplificateur SAP 2400 (7-L) de la marque PSS



Thank you.

Alex Lancaster
09-19-2003, 10:18 PM
Hey Guys:

Look at the pledge drive, cough up a little, specially some that use the non-marketplace forum for plugging their stuff!

Alex.

IDF
09-20-2003, 08:12 AM
Hi all,

I apologize for being at the origin of a controversy on such a peaceful forum. In fact, I'm currently looking for a new amp -for a gift- and I was interested in PSS products because he claimed they were better sounding than many others much more expensive.
So I jumped on his site to read the review tests and was disappointed.
Maybe I should have better kept this for me.

Regards.

4313B
09-20-2003, 09:02 AM
Hello IDF,

Peaceful forums are goofy.

What characteristic(s) disppointed you about the amps?

Have you brought home any for evaluation?

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by IDF
... I was interested in PSS product because he claimed they were better sounding than many others much more expensive.
So I jumped on his site to read the review tests and was disappointed.

Maybe I should have kept this for me.

IDF,

How can you be disappointed?

SONO MUSIQUE, unfortunately French written, says that PSS amplifiers sound by far more better than recognized high end audiophile amplifiers costing up to 10 time more (test report of PSS1000 from the 9B series).

SONO MAGAZINE (PSS500 9B) says that the common mode rejection ratio here has a value that is only rarely seen, even on amps with very good reputations.

Explain me, as it is very interesting understanding why, while reading good to excellent reports, someone can be disappointed and claim that those amplifiers are just made for a karaoke use?

Explain us why it is impossible selling amplifiers at a reasonable price while France has high labour level (our amplifiers are not manufactured in the Far East)?

After that you ask a translation of several test reports all of them old of 10 to 15 years, and even more.

Do you want to offer a fifth hand amplifier or a new one?

IDF
09-20-2003, 09:41 AM
Sorry PSS, I did'nt wanted to peeve you.
Maybe I've been eading old rewiews. It is true that they are not so good. But why letting them on your site? Your brand seems to be nameless here, nobody knows it around me and I have never read anything about you in "la nlle revue du son".
On the other way, your lasts posts were laced with insults. Against me, no matter. But regarding the national emblem, I think it is not very fair in an international forum.
I'm done with that thread.

Regards

JBL Dog
09-20-2003, 10:48 AM
Alex, good point!

Just out of curiosity, Mr. PBS Audio, have you made a donation to help maintain this site? Don is kind enough to let you promote your wares. I just donated $50 a few minutes ago. Could you kindly do the same? I mean, a guy like you havin' his own line of amps and all must have deeper pockets than most.

:yes:

And when you make your journey to paypal (link is in the upper right hand corner of this page), kindly make a donation from the heart..... then kindly double it!

:cheers:

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by JBL Dog
... Mr. PBS Audio, have you made a donation to help maintain this site? ...
This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

It will be done!

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
... specially some that use the non-marketplace forum for plugging their stuff!

Alex.

As said in a previous post, my account can be closed at the moment if my place is elsewhere.

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by IDF
... nobody knows it around me and I have never read anything about you in "la nlle revue du son".

IDF,

PSS AUDIO is not in the audiophile market, only in the professional one, that is why there are no test reports in hifi/audiophile magazines such "la nouvelle revue du son".

Why should we remove old test reports, as we have nothing to hide?

It shows that we are always improving.

I was lying a minute ago when I wrote that we never had a test report printed in "la nouvelle revue du son".

Follow this link and you will read a test report on amplifier MODEL 1830 under the LINEAR SYSTEM brand!

http://www.pssaudio.com/presse/BENRDS-1830-09-1977.PDF

It was printed in 1977, when I was just 21 year old.

Out of this report can you please let us know how good or bad it is?

Alex Lancaster
09-20-2003, 01:29 PM
Yuri:

Pls ask Yr Mexican distributor/reviewer to go back to grade school for some "Ortografia" lessons, also, entirely subjective.

IDF:

The gauntlet has been dropped, I, and possibly JBLDog could act as Yr seconds; How about MAC-10´s (long clip) or MP5's at 5 paces, Champs Elysees, Dawn, in front of the USA Embassy.

Alex.

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Yuri:

Pls ask Yr Mexican distributor/reviewer to go back to grade school for some "Ortografia" lessons, also, entirely subjective.

I do not understand Spanish, I “feel” what someone mean but I am unable to translate what was written!

From what I understand, this was written by an end user!

Can you please translate us in good English what was written in bas Spanish?

Ian Mackenzie
09-20-2003, 02:55 PM
Alex,

It translates on Bablefish in just two words.

%^&* (**

Ian:eek:

Alex Lancaster
09-20-2003, 02:59 PM
OK, here's my best from Mexican Spanish to American English; no charge:

Quote:

RE: The Beast has arrived... PSS 2400

Well yes, as Eduardo says "The beast has arrived PSS2400", and I affirm the comment, it is an amplifier of rigorous construccion, nothing to do with other "high end" brands like crown or crest, it is enough to look inside to imagine how it sounds, I have installed and tried it at less than 25% of capacity with Yorkville TL3252 speakers, sounds perfect, it is not necessary to alter the sound with EQ, by itself it gives a perfect balance of tonalities in music, excellent lows, defined, clear and robust; Clear mids, painless, powerful, Not brilliant highs, not shrieking, not deranging, not saturated, in short an excellent amp. for great quantities of sound pressure, be on the lookout for the official demonstration of Leon Audio e Iluminacion, it will be an event with excellent sound at major levels.

Unquote.

My opinion: Not only entirely subjective but also unqualified, it sounds like a vintage Chateau Margaux tasting.

Have Yr dealer send me one, I will try it against mine; Crown K2, Sonys N77ES and N88ES, and also at my friend's (at the aca.gr page), McIntoshes and Krells; If I like it, the $ is reasonable, between You and me, I know about "audiophile" dealers markup, I´ll buy one or more, and post the results.

Alex.

PSS AUDIO
09-20-2003, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
...
Have Yr dealer send me one, I will try it against mine; Crown K2, Sonys N77ES and N88ES, and also at my friend's (at the aca.gr page), McIntoshes and Krells; If I like it, the $ is reasonable, between You and me, I know about "audiophile" dealers markup, I´ll buy one or more, and post the results.

Alex.

Alex,

Why don't you get in touch with him and summarize him the thread, I am sure he will be pleased lending you one amplifier (I do not know what he have in stock but I am ready sending him one just for you)!

Please read his full name and address:

ARMONIA AVM
Fausto Vega Santander # 320
Col. Escuadron 201
09060 Mexico

Phone : + 52 55 55 82 04 13
Fax : + 52 55 55 82 04 13
Contact : Eduardo GUTIERREZ
Email : Mexico@pssaudio.com
http://www.armonia-avm.com

About the feedback, it seems to be honest if it is written by his customer (he is right the way he describes the sound quality, and nobody have listened yet the 9D+ amplifier I am still working on).

My deal is to manufacture a transistorized amplifier, reliable, punchy as all transistorized amplifiers but as smooth as a bulb one and with a lot of emphasis (reality in the sound reproduction/placement of instruments).

About Chateau Margaux, with each significant order I offer a wooden box of 6 bottles of Baron Philippe de Rotschild "MOUTON CADET" which is the result of a rigorous selection of wines from the most important Bordeaux names from grapes issuing from most noble strains: Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Cabernet Franc. Their blending, carried out by the Baron Philippe de Rothschild oenologists, give this wine force and vivacity, characteristics of a young wine. The tannins are frank without being aggressive. This ready-to-drink wine is a perfect complement to meat and cheese. This wine is a free gift to our customers and has no commercial value.

PSS AUDIO
09-21-2003, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by IDF
... Maybe I've been eading old rewiews. ... nobody knows it around me and I have never read anything about you in "NOUVELLE REVUE DU SON".

IDF,

I thought that the way the test reports were placed on our website was clear enough.

I realize, beside the fact that all readers are warned that all the test reports are shown from the first one (September 1977) to the last one, is not clear enough.

That is why you were mistaken and thought that what I manufactured 25 years ago was what was sold today!

I will ask the page to be re-written not such mistake can happen again.

For those not aware about the facts, please read what is written at the very beginning of the page:

Before the PSS trademark was created, the first products were marketed under the name LINEAR SYSTEM. At that time, and barely twenty years old, Yuri D. GUTSATZ Jr. brought out the first LINEAR SYSTEM amplifier, MODEL 1830. This was the first amplifier tested by the professional press, and one which received enthusiastic reviews. A detailed report on this amplifier was written in the NOUVELLE REVUE DU SON in September 1977.

You will find the whole write-up on the creator and the different products tested.

Yuri D. GUTSATZ Jr. has elicited varied reactions because of his products and marketing techniques, but whatever the reaction, it has never been indifferent!

See for yourself!

That is why; forgive me being rude on your words, as you seem to mix-up several information.

Edaurdo AAVM
09-21-2003, 07:59 PM
It is not clear to me why you post here saying things about me when Dr. Gutsatz gave you my contact data, why you didn't ?

Let me know if there is something I can do...

What's wrong with my ortography ? WellI have veryfew time and I make many mistakes, Is that meaninful ?

Ok the post you read in my forum was based mainly in one guy opinion and personal evaluation of the amp, but let me tell you youmay know I sell also high end gear, wise high end not aristochart high end) well anyway I think PSS can beat many of the amps our there into Hi-Fi / audiophile tastes, I think brands like NAD, Rotel would have a hard task if sitting beside a PSS amplifier.

So anyway tell me What can I do for you ? If there is somenthing I can...

Why don't you call me?
+52 +55 55820413

PSS AUDIO
09-22-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Have Yr dealer send me one, I will try it against mine; Crown K2, Sonys N77ES and N88ES, and also at my friend's (at the aca.gr page), McIntoshes and Krells; If I like it, the $ is reasonable, between You and me, I know about "audiophile" dealers markup, I´ll buy one or more, and post the results.

Alex.

Alex,

I will arrange the shipment on one PSS600 from the 9D series thus you can have it in the next fortnight.

All what you have to do is to test it and post your feedback!

HERVEM will also participate in France with such a test with the same amplifier; you will then be able to compare your impression about it.

Why not arrange after that someone else testing it and posting his feedback too!

You will have to arrange the shipment from one place to an other and once all is over sending back the amplifier to Mexico unless someone buys it to AAVM!

Lets talk about all that.

Alex Lancaster
09-22-2003, 04:55 PM
Hi:

I called Eduardo this morning, and will be keeping in touch, We are not that far away, maybe 550Km by road, and shipping is easy.

I will post my and others' evaluation of course.

Thanks: Alex.

PSS AUDIO
10-03-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
...

Ian,

NET received their first 9D amplifiers, please read what they think about it:

I am very impressed with the sound of the PSS2400.
The sound is excellent, and with good speakers you can really tell the difference.

You can get in touch with Billy Mawer for a test if you are "still" interested in the matter!

JBL Dog
10-03-2003, 02:11 AM
I've been using professional gear with my entertainment biz for over 24 years. Recently, I've mainly been using QSC MX and PLX series amps recently because they seem to offer the best quality and reliabilty for the $$. Very fond of Crown, also!

Are your amps being distributed in the St. Louis, MO area (USA)? If so, can you give me the name of a dealer? If possible, I'd lke to arrange a demo. :yes:

Thanks!

This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

PSS AUDIO
10-15-2003, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by JBL Dog
Are your amps being distributed in the St. Louis, MO area (USA)?
This message comes from JBL Dog :band:

Unfortunately no ... Mexico is the closest country where our amps are distributed.

As you are not the first one willing to test one of our amplifiers, I can manage to lend from Mexico one amplifier to one of you.

Once the test is over, the only thing to do is sending the amp to the following person interested by testing it and so on till the last person sends it back to Mexico.

What do you think about this offer?

4313B
10-15-2003, 04:50 AM
Maybe after JBL Dog and Audiobeer check one out they can send it to Mike Caldwell -> mikebake -> me? :)

PSS AUDIO
10-15-2003, 05:28 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Maybe after JBL Dog and Audiobeer check one out they can send it to Mike Caldwell -> mikebake -> me? :)

As Alex Lancaster wishes to test an amplifier I will manage with our Mexican distributor to lend him one, then it can be sent to one of you and so on.

Who can organize it?

Perhaps opening a new thread?

It's just upon you ...

PSS AUDIO
11-25-2003, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie
Wow Yuri,

I 'll follow this up,

Thankyou

Ian

Hello Ian (and all others)!

If you are still interested in, our Australian distributor will receive by the end of this week a shipment including a modified PSS600 amplifier for an audiophile use.

This amplifier was modified to be as close as possible to the next studio amplifier I am working on.

Billy Mawer is waiting your call and will be glad lending you this amplifier.

I’ll be glad reading your feedback and I will let you know in a very close future what is the main difference between this modified amplifier and the studio one (still have to make the box and finalize the PCB).

Hope to read you soon.

Let me recall you how to get in touch with Billy Mawer:

NETWORK ENTERTAINEMENT
Unit 2 98 Old Pittwater road
Brookvale
2100 NSW

Phone : + 61 2 9905 5997
Fax : + 61 2 9905 9440
Contact : Billy MAWER
Email : australia@pssaudio.com
http://www.network-et.com

mikebake
11-26-2003, 02:58 PM
"Maybe after JBL Dog and Audiobeer check one out they can send it to Mike Caldwell -> mikebake -> me?"

Yeah, I'm in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mikebake

Alex Lancaster
11-26-2003, 03:34 PM
Hi Yuri:

I have been in touch with Eduardo, Your Mexico city distributor, but still no news about the amp.

Alex.

PSS AUDIO
12-05-2003, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Hi Yuri:

I have been in touch with Eduardo, Your Mexico city distributor, but still no news about the amp.

Alex.

Hi Alex,

I did not have time but I will manage sending him an amplifier thus you can test it and pass it through others!

Can you organize it?

PSS AUDIO
12-05-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Ian Mackenzie

Wow Yuri,

I 'll follow this up,

Thankyou

Ian

Ian,

I had Billy on the phone; he received his last shipment and a PSS600 amplifier modified as close as possible to what will be the next studio amplifier!

He told me he just wired it and listened at it for a minute and immediately noticed all the improvements I made since the last weeks...

He is ready to lend it thus you can listen at it and give us your feedback.

If you are still in the mood just get in touch with him!

I hope to read you soon.

AudioGeek
12-05-2003, 02:45 AM
He is ready to lend it thus you can listen at it and give us your feedback.

Absolutely! We expect a full report, and I'm especially interested in a comparison against your DIY amps, Ian.


Regards,
Geek

Alex Lancaster
12-05-2003, 07:00 AM
Yuri:

Yeah, as mentioned, I´ve been in touch with Ed., I will take care of Mexican customs, do it every day, Ed. has the shipping instructions, so We don´t get reamed here.

Alex.

PSS AUDIO
12-05-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Yuri:

Yeah, as mentioned, I´ve been in touch with Ed., I will take care of Mexican customs, do it every day, Ed. has the shipping instructions, so We don´t get reamed here.

Alex.

Alex,

I will be out of town and travelling a little next week but I will arrange a shipment before Christmas (I will perhaps be Santa Claus)...

I will prepare the same PSS600 than the one I shipped in Australia thus all of you can speak about the same amplifier!

I am in touch now with Eduardo and I will let him know what is going on!

jbl
12-12-2003, 10:41 AM
Hello PSS AUDIO;

I could'nt agree with you more! Last year my Marantz 300DC power amplifier developed a thermal runaway condition. After I repaired the problem and realizing how difficult it was to repair (typical of Marantz), I decided to replace all of the electrolytic capacitors. I then connected my CD player directly to the amp, not using the preamp. Not only was the sound clearer, but the bass was much deeper. I then connected the preamp (Marantz 3650) and the sound was not like it was when directly connected to the amp. I then replaced all the electrolytics as well as the resistors on the preamp board. The sound is now unbeliveable. As good as when I connected the CD player directly to the amp
I started out to repair the amp and I ended with a new amp.

JBL

Alex Lancaster
12-12-2003, 03:33 PM
Yuri:

Great!, it is very important that the EUR1 certificate with the green seal from French customs comes with the paperwork.

Thanks, Alex.

AudioGeek
12-13-2003, 01:11 AM
I then connected the preamp (Marantz 3650) and the sound was not like it was when directly connected to the amp. I then replaced all the electrolytics as well as the resistors on the preamp board. The sound is now unbeliveable.

I'm getting ready to do the same with my vintage Marantz receiver. :yes:

wOOt!

PSS AUDIO
12-13-2003, 03:13 AM
Originally posted by jbl
Hello PSS AUDIO;

I could'nt agree with you more! ... I then connected my CD player directly to the amp, not using the preamp. Not only was the sound clearer, but the bass was much deeper. ... I started out to repair the amp and I ended with a new amp.JBL

Hi!

I will even add that the use of a preamp is useless, unless you have a turntable.

Never forget that less components will be in the circuitry, better the sound quality can be.

That is why on the next studio amplifier (same amplifier than the audiophile model) there will be four inputs (one balanced using an XLR socket, one unbalanced using a combo XLR & RCA jack socket, and two RCA) with a good rotary switch and a good ALPS potentiometer before the power stage.

The trick is done and your CD player, receiver or whatever you use is directly linked to the power stage and there are no capacitors in the audio circuitry, it means that the amplifier is directly linked to your source (if ever there is some DC it will be detected and the output relay will disconnect the speaker from the amplifier).

If you are interested in, look at the schematic …

The sample I shipped in Australia and the one I am about to ship in Mexico have all those tricks unless the four inputs as the amplifier is made from the actual PCB used for our amplifiers.

jbl
12-19-2003, 11:21 AM
Hi Audio Geek,
Let me know how it sounds when you are done.

JBL

jbl
12-19-2003, 11:23 AM
Hi PSS Audio,
I agree that less is better, but I still need the pre amp for the phono section. This is the best compromise-for now.

JBL

AudioGeek
12-19-2003, 09:26 PM
Sure will!

soundhd
01-28-2004, 03:09 PM
The right or correct amplifier can and does make a big difference how a "program" sounds through a speaker system as does the right pre-amp, crossover, equalizer (if you use one), source equipment (CD player, turntable, ect...)and cables (speaker & interconnects) but what the job of an amplifer is is basically to do by what it is called......to amplifie........the right one will power the speakers with "no" coloration or noise...... period.............

Ralf
01-28-2004, 06:28 PM
HI Yuri,

I pursue the Threat already quite a while.

Slowly your amplifiers make me curious. Who represents you in Germany? Can one rehearse-hear the parts somewhere?

It disturbed me so far at high performance Pa amplifiers, that the background noise was so high with open entrance.
How is that with your amplifiers?

Greetings
Ralf

PSS AUDIO
01-29-2004, 12:02 AM
Originally posted by Ralf
Slowly your amplifiers make me curious. Who represents you in Germany? Can one rehearse-hear the parts somewhere?


Hi Ralf,

We have some dealers in Germany but no official distributor yet.

We will exhibit as each year at the Prolight+Sound fair in Frankfurt where we can meet (Hall 4.1 booth L28).

What do you exactly call the background noise?
Is it the signal to noise ratio?
Is it the mechanical noise of the amplifier in a steady room?

Please let us know!

Ralf
01-29-2004, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by PSS AUDIO
Hi Ralf,

We have some dealers in Germany but no official distributor yet.

We will exhibit as each year at the Prolight+Sound fair in Frankfurt where we can meet (Hall 4.1 booth L28).

What do you exactly call the background noise?
Is it the signal to noise ratio?
Is it the mechanical noise of the amplifier in a steady room?

Please let us know!

Hi Yuri,

Do you know the exact date of the fair? If it is possible, I will come with Guido.

Concerning the noises I thought of the signal to noise ratio.
But if you already mention it, it disturbs me also that the exhausts are too loud.

I could imagine that you solved that in a better way.

Greetings
Ralf

PSS AUDIO
01-29-2004, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Ralf
Do you know the exact date of the fair? If it is possible, I will come with Guido.


Ralf,

Prolight+Sound will take place in Frankfurt from March the 31st to April the 3rd in Frankfurt.

We have a signal to noise ratio better than 105 dB and a proportional fan cooling and it can even be adjusted for a personal use!

Have a look at the latest test benches on our web site: http://www.pssaudio.com/presse/BESONO-500US-2003.PDF

B&KMan
11-01-2004, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by PSS AUDIO


Amplifiers are more significant than you may think!



the sound result is equal at your cheaper item...

Poor amp, cheap cable, wrong mechanical decoupling, wrong ac current, position, room treatement, oxidation, bad match, mis-interpretation for many other factor is direclty affect spectrum, speed, harmonic, phase response,

In General, the science is a big light in tunnel or 1000 astrology arguments...

ex: the tribo-electrical is possible to affect over 10% of signal by introdution of noise... ???

the tribo-electrical is one of big phenomenon affect amp, speaker and all items who cox cable appear.

This is a real reason the old Quad is entire attach cables inside amp. same reason who JBL put a great quantity of wax into part inside Old cross-over (3143 ex)... what is That ?? Any cable multibrin is fluctuate in impedance if vibration shake cable and unstabilise the tousand concact braid inside the cable. this fact is usually checked in insrumentation laboratory...

===========

Damping factor: is critical and yes the cable is affected the result.

tip of rule
the target market is critical:

put very low damping factor amp in mic and go karaoke... and look the firework.

Krell vs Crown Krell is elow 10 Damping factor and Crown is over 5000 Damping factor (varying at model) because Crown is amp for live music with very high incidence factor in mic membrane.

Krell is for audio playback amp.

SO
What is a better damping factor???

Well if you mixing console with monitor studio, you have interest to ear clearly where the position of input x is place in the image stereo: You choose hight damping factor...over 500. Because the harmonic is not critical (you have just verified with spectrum analyser the THD is below to the standart and that-it. (i build very ruff imgae just for this point)

Of course after the big orientation is found the variation determine the % allowed in fundamental reaction and extension of the harmonic...

More stiff, more smooth, more harmonic, poor image. Match cable, etc,

In this area the Flavour is appear at each Co...

I just finish this immense problem by conclusion of my exemple Krell if is connected at hight impedance cable the sound is completely different if your connect at very low Cable impedence....

One factor of mil spec is control test for tribo-electrical...

(and the war is continue)

yuk yuk

:die:

Bestsmurfs
11-02-2004, 09:16 PM
Regarding damping factor: I’ve used a McIntosh 2100, a Crown PT 2.1 and a Conrad Johnson. Sold the Mc out of bordom. The Crown held on to my LE15a’s with a death grip. Amazing detail but not very musical in the mids, kind of lifeless so I put it back in the box. The CJ is pure heaven. After extended listening, I have given up any thoughts of inventing my own amp or buying a tube amp. You can check out the reviews of any model CJ else ware. They are all very good, not terribly expensive and won’t give you a lot of fake specs.