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martin2395
08-07-2013, 04:58 PM
Since I plan to bi-amp my 4343's I am looking for suitable poweramps but before that I still can't figure out how to bi-amp my speakers properly, in other words: are there any sonical differences between vertical and horizontal bi-amping?
Vertical type is the easiest way as I won't have to balance the highs and lows - just the left and right channel. Also, with vertical bi-amp I can place the amplifier directly under the speaker, which is going to be placed on stands, about 15cm from the ground.


My second concern is choosing the right amplifier - I've been looking at MacroTech 1200 and 2400's but I have absolutely no idea how they sound (for example compared to Yammie P2200, which I know quite well, I just don't like buying the same stuff for the second time ;) ). I know that the Crowns will be great on the bass but what about the mids and highs?
Yes, I'm also aware of the fan on the Macro which would have to be replaced for a silent one + a small low voltage transformer.

Dan
08-07-2013, 08:10 PM
Martin,

Here is what I use in my 3 way active set up.

Bass - Crown K1, No fan, 3000 damping factor, not smooth for mid/high, excellent for bass.

Mid - Tripath 2050 from Hifimediy, 30 watts, sounds very smooth, US$50 for the assembled board, Red Wine used the same chip in one of thier amps that sold for about US$3K.

High - Tripath 2020 (AMP 6) from 41hz, very very smooth, 12 watts, US$60 for the assembled board, needs a very good 12V powersupply, I use a 12V SLA battery. "One of the 25 microchips that shook the world".


Bryston is also very good but cost a lot more. Hypex Ncore is supposed to be one of the best solid state amp. Its a class D that sounds better than a Class A. A bit pricey.

I highly recommend going fully active so you can time align the drivers. It is a huge improvement. I use a MiniDSP for mid/high and Behringer DCX 2496 for the bass.

Dan

BMWCCA
08-07-2013, 10:17 PM
You don't need the power of a MacroTech for what you're doing. And you don't want the disturbance of cooling fans, either. They are superb amps for sound reinforcement and can produce some kick-ass bass in large venues, but they're overkill and not actually that well-suited for your living room, in my opinion.

I'm no expert but I do run bi-amped 4345s in my living-room system and I'm extremely satisfied with using a Crown PS-400 for the bottom (18-inch 2245s) and a Crown PS-200 for the upper three drivers. I use an Ashly XR1001 as the active crossover and the passive is a custom-built charge-coupled setup from the schematics posted on this site. I can balance the output either with the Ashly or the Crown's input attenuators. Horizontal bi-amping allows me to focus the most power I have on the LF section.

I'm sure there must be some benefit to be realized from more power or more money spent on amps but I honestly can't imagine what that would be like. The system as it is gets rave reviews and the bass is strong enough to rattle the house on movie soundtracks. Professional jazz musicians have praised it for the lifelike qualities on double-bass tracks and horns sound, well, just like horns!

The PS-200 is rated at 100WPC into 8-ohms and the damping factor is listed as >400.
The PS-400 is rated at 190WPC into 8-ohms and the damping factor is listed as >400.
The 400 came from a studio in DC and I paid $100 for it and $200 for the smaller amp (go figure!).
I've also run the same system with Crown D150A-II and DC300A-II but I simply prefer the sound—and the startup delay—of the PS series.
(There's another thread here where these improvements are discussed by our departed friend Scotty Fitlin.)

This is more than ample power to recreate the sound level of a live performance in my living room and I can't possibly stay in the room at even half the power levels these amps can provide. I run the input attenuators on the amps at 12-o'clock (half) and seldom take the pre-amp volume control past its mid-point. I know that's not scientifically significant of anything but believe me the amps are simply loafing at live-sound levels in my house.

Amp and speaker synergy can be hit or miss, and it is something you can play around with forever. I was lucky to have several amps and found a satisfying combination in what I already owned . . . so I quit looking, and simply enjoy the music.

Good luck to you!

martin2395
08-08-2013, 02:40 AM
Thank you for the replies guys and all the info.

I can have a quite affordable amplifier that has more than enough power but the quality of the mids and highs will be lacking, Crown K series for example.
Older Brystons 3B ST/4B ST are "affordable" but I'm not sure about their performance on the 4343's. I even thought about a pair of EL34 monoblocks for the mids and highs and throw a K1/K2 on the lows but won't it be difficult to match the lows and the mid-high section when using two totally different amplifiers?

I am not planning to go full active as I've done it before and it's just too much tweaking etc.
Most probably I will just use a 5235 and recap + CC the original passive networks.

martin2395
08-08-2013, 04:03 PM
Are Crown PSA-2 and CSL460 any good?
Someone is selling PSA-2's at €350,-/ea. and CSL460 for €100,-/ea

HCSGuy
08-09-2013, 07:41 PM
I have several of the older Brystons - they are probably my favorite all around amp design - I think I have a 3BST and a 9BST. I have run them on 4343's, S3100's, and 4430's , as well my current Sonus Faber Monitor M's, which are my primary speaker until I complete my move. At that time, I'll unbox the Parasound Halo JC1's that have been waiting for a room to heat. Bryston's are a safe bet, as they don't do anything bad, and hold their value well, so if you buy them used, you may be able to listen for a year or two for free. I've never been able to get "Magic" out of my 4343's, so I can't make any recommendations on something that will raise the hair on your arms.

richluvsound
08-10-2013, 09:29 AM
I would suggest a Crown K1 or K2 on the 15's and Class A on the top end ... maybe some nice tube mono blocks ... !

Rich

martin2395
08-10-2013, 09:47 AM
Well, quite unexpected I came home with a Carver PT1800 (2x600W/8 :o:) for the lows and I almost forgot that I had a Luxman M03 laying around which is now doing the duty on the mid/high section.
I'm not able to tell the difference between bi-amp and full passive as I had to use my el-cheapo XLR cables in place of my MIT 330's.

Now it's time to find a replacement fan for the PT1800 as the stock one is a lil' bit loud ;)

I considered a K2 but it's 2.5 times more expensive than my Carver and since it only plays up to 290Hz....

JUNGLECATGEORGE
08-27-2013, 03:19 PM
Since I plan to bi-amp my 4343's I am looking for suitable poweramps but before that I still can't figure out how to bi-amp my speakers properly, in other words: are there any sonical differences between vertical and horizontal bi-amping?
Vertical type is the easiest way as I won't have to balance the highs and lows - just the left and right channel. Also, with vertical bi-amp I can place the amplifier directly under the speaker, which is going to be placed on stands, about 15cm from the ground.


My second concern is choosing the right amplifier - I've been looking at MacroTech 1200 and 2400's but I have absolutely no idea how they sound (for example compared to Yammie P2200, which I know quite well, I just don't like buying the same stuff for the second time ;) ). I know that the Crowns will be great on the bass but what about the mids and highs?
Yes, I'm also aware of the fan on the Macro which would have to be replaced for a silent one + a small low voltage transformer.

my dc 300 crown works real good for the highs i am using a bgw 750 for the low end .no mid as my system is using 2 way with hartsfield low end and bi amp to the big horns crossed at 500 hz

martin2395
08-28-2013, 02:13 AM
Yes, I love my 4343's!
The woofers turned out to be both busted (aftermarket recones of very bad quality - too stiff surrounds, missing mass ring etc.).
Instead of reconing, which would cost me even more than a complete unit I just bought a fresh pair 2235H's.
HUGE difference!

I have two Carvers now - a PT1800 for mid/hi and a PT2400 for the lows. Of course this is an ultimate overkill with a total of 1350W/8 Ohms for each channel but the Carvers sound wonderful, much cleaner and tighter than the Luxman.
They are being serviced atm, together with a BSS FDS360 crossover.

I've heard that BGW GTA amp is one of the best amps for bass but they are extremely scarce in western Europe.

Dave_72
08-31-2013, 06:53 AM
I have several of the older Brystons - they are probably my favorite all around amp design - I think I have a 3BST and a 9BST. I have run them on 4343's, S3100's, and 4430's , as well my current Sonus Faber Monitor M's, which are my primary speaker until I complete my move. At that time, I'll unbox the Parasound Halo JC1's that have been waiting for a room to heat. Bryston's are a safe bet, as they don't do anything bad, and hold their value well, so if you buy them used, you may be able to listen for a year or two for free. I've never been able to get "Magic" out of my 4343's, so I can't make any recommendations on something that will raise the hair on your arms.

I am looking at the Parasound amps as a lower priced option.

Maxwelhse
09-05-2013, 06:56 PM
Well... Depending on what you mean by "lower priced option" the Emotiva XPR-1 sure looks enticing when compared to the cost of something like a Parasound JC-1... Hard to say if it's far to call them competing products.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr1

I don't own any XPR family products, but I do have 2 XPA series amps and have been delighted with both of them.

Food for thought...

Dave_72
09-06-2013, 03:42 AM
Well... Depending on what you mean by "lower priced option" the Emotiva XPR-1 sure looks enticing when compared to the cost of something like a Parasound JC-1... Hard to say if it's far to call them competing products.

http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/amplifiers/products/xpr1

I don't own any XPR family products, but I do have 2 XPA series amps and have been delighted with both of them.

Food for thought...

Lower priced option to Accuphase, which is real expensive here in the US.

Also, I'm looking at Plinius made in New Zealand.

As far as Emotiva goes, no comment. I've said enough on other forums and you tube.

I'm looking for Class A amps anyway, and none of the Emotiva runs in Class A.

martin2395
09-06-2013, 05:44 AM
I considered an old KSA-50MkII for the mid/high section but the electricity bill would kill me. I still have to hear what the carvers with BSS FDS360 crossover will do on the 4343's.


Btw, how would the PT1800/PT2400 compare to Urei 6290's?
I know a 6290 for sale and it looks like it gets almost no interest, highest bid I saw was 110eur and the ad is still active.
It would be nice to have full JBL stack :bouncy:

Dave_72
09-06-2013, 08:58 PM
I considered an old KSA-50MkII for the mid/high section but the electricity bill would kill me. I still have to hear what the carvers with BSS FDS360 crossover will do on the 4343's.

I see. Very well then. That would be interesting, imo.

Maxwelhse
09-07-2013, 06:49 PM
As far as Emotiva goes, no comment. I've said enough on other forums and you tube.


Without trying to thread hijack, I'd love hear your thoughts on Emotiva... Can you shoot me a PM explaining your position (or you could save yourself some effort and just shoot your youtube links over)?

I'm asking only because I've only been able to find boat loads of praise for their products.

martin2395
10-05-2013, 01:27 PM
Just a small update: I've been playing around with amps for the mid/high section, The Carver PT1800 does a good job but it sounds kinda hard on the highs. Not harsh but quite hard and 'technical'.
I bought a pair of Cary EL34 tube monoblocks, yuck....very forward midrange, no detail, no transparency, no drive. These will be put up for sale soon . :D

The Carver PT2400 which is powering the 2235H's will be replaced too, I'm getting crazy of that buzzing sound the magnetic field PSU's make, even from almost 5 metres you can still clearly hear it.
Most probably I will get a Crown K2 for the lows but then I will still need a new amp for the mid/high section which will have drive, detail and transparency.

pyonc
11-09-2013, 03:32 PM
Instead of reconing, which would cost me even more than a complete unit I just bought a fresh pair 2235H's.
HUGE difference!


I'm intrigued by your replacement of 2231A (4343) with 2235H, which is intended for 4344.
Do these 2235H woofers work for 4343, too?:blink: As you know, 4343 network is different from 4344's.

hjames
11-09-2013, 03:54 PM
I'm intrigued by your replacement of 2231A (4343) with 2235H, which is intended for 4344.
Do these 2235H woofers work for 4343, too?:blink: As you know, 4343 network is different from 4344's.

Pretty sure the 2235 is the recommended replacement for the no longer in production 2231As.
But if you have 2231s or can find some, I have heard folks here say they do prefer the sound of those drivers.

The (used) 4341s I had came with incorrect 2234s, which I swapped for a pair of 2235s.

Technically, the crossover designs improved from the 4341 to the 4343 to the 4345 -
and since they are all comparable 4 ways, I gather the newer crossover is the desired,
improved design to use, rather than the older technology of the 4343 or 4341 designs.

pyonc
11-09-2013, 04:51 PM
Pretty sure the 2235 is the recommended replacement for the no longer in production 2231As.
But if you have 2231s or can find some, I have heard folks here say they do prefer the sound of those drivers.

The (used) 4341s I had came with incorrect 2234s, which I swapped for a pair of 2235s.

Technically, the crossover designs improved from the 4341 to the 4343 to the 4345 -
and since they are all comparable 4 ways, I gather the newer crossover is the desired,
improved design to use, rather than the older technology of the 4343 or 4341 designs.

That's great to know:D. The only difference would be alnico or ferrite...

grumpy
11-10-2013, 02:23 PM
Did the 2231 come with the 2235's progressive suspension? I think there is a bit more than alnico->ferrite.
The change would include one of timbre ... which includes distortion as well as frequency response.
So it might be what you're used to is as important as "improvements" (such as lower distortion drivers
and zobel-included LF filter sections... which might help the amp out a little). See how I wove that back
into the subject question? :) lol

Nice problem to have (fun to sort out) :)

ffppss
12-12-2013, 10:49 AM
Hi Martin,

I have 4343s and run with a Bryston 4bst. I had been using them with the internal X over of the speakers, then switched to a JBL x-over. now using the bryston 10b X-over which has made a phenomenal difference. sounds so much better than both the internal & JBL x-over!

the 4bst is great!