S3900 is better than S4700???

[martin_wu99]

I have read Japanese <stereo sound>,S3900 is cheaper than S4700,but they ranked S3900 more upper than S4700.

Is that truth?why?:blink:
please comment

[4313B]

It is possible that people might think the S3900 "sounds better" than the S4700 given that it is a bit newer, keeping in mind that the network has a major influence in performance. The components themselves? Well the little 100FE-12's, while very nice, are not 2216Nd's. In other words, the S4700 network might be why some people would think the S3900 sounds "better". I have not looked at the networks closely to see if there are any major differences.

[martin_wu99]

It is possible that people might think the S3900 "sounds better" than the S4700 given that it is a bit newer, keeping in mind that the network has a major influence in performance. The components themselves? Well the little 100FE-12's, while very nice, are not 2216Nd's. In other words, the S4700 network might be why some people would think the S3900 sounds "better". I have not looked at the networks closely to see if there are any major differences.
I remembered that you have said S3900 is very good.
The magazine said S3900 issued at the same time with DD67000,maybe it have some improvements than S4700 in network?
you mean 2216Nd is far better than 100FE-12?:dont-know:

[4313B]

The magazine said S3900 issued at the same time with DD67000,maybe it have some improvements than S4700 in network?If I have time and I remember I'll look at the two networks and see if anything stands out between them.
you mean 2216Nd is far better than 100FE-12?:dont-know:While the 100FE-12 is a very nice ten-inch driver the 2216Nd is a significant step up. It has a few more goodies built into it as per its designer.

The 1200FE-8 and 1200FE-12 are also considered to be a bit more "expensive" than the 100FE-12.

By comparison, the 100FE-12 is quite a bit more "expensive" than the ten-inch in the 1000 Array. The 100FE-12 is similar in built quality to the legendary LE10, although it does sport faston connectors.

Comparing old to new, the 800 Array and 1000 Array use inexpensive low frequency transducers, not necessarily a bad thing, kind of like the old L16, L19, L26 and L36 Decade's, as well as the 4301, were better than they had any right to be given their low cost 116 and 127 low frequency transducers.

At one point I asked if there was a JBL Pro equivalent to the 2216Nd, this was before the M2 was introduced, and I was told there really wasn't anything Pro had that was close to as good. I guess that's why Pro went with the 2216Nd in the M2. ;)

[martin_wu99]

If I have time and I remember I'll look at the two networks and see if anything stands out between them.While the 100FE-12 is a very nice ten-inch driver the 2216Nd is a significant step up. It has a few more goodies built into it as per its designer.

The 1200FE-8 and 1200FE-12 are also considered to be a bit more "expensive" than the 100FE-12.

By comparison, the 100FE-12 is quite a bit more "expensive" than the ten-inch in the 1000 Array. The 100FE-12 is similar in built quality to the legendary LE10, although it does sport faston connectors.

Comparing old to new, the 800 Array and 1000 Array use inexpensive low frequency transducers, not necessarily a bad thing, kind of like the old L16, L19, L26 and L36 Decade's, as well as the 4301, were better than they had any right to be given their low cost 116 and 127 low frequency transducers.

At one point I asked if there was a JBL Pro equivalent to the 2216Nd, this was before the M2 was introduced, and I was told there really wasn't anything Pro had that was close to as good. I guess that's why Pro went with the 2216Nd in the M2. ;)
Great,maybe the editors consider the price and apply and give the rank:D
You made things clear including S4600 i asked you before,S4700 is much better than S4600.
Thank you

[4313B]

You made things clear including S4600 i asked you before,S4700 is more better than S4600.Better how? Technically? Yes. Soundwise? That's a personal decision. I can tell you that JBL considers the LE14 to be "old school" and uses it anyway because it remains viable. The 2216Nd is considerably more advanced compared to the LE14. Please keep in mind that quite often I am speaking from a "potential" perspective. Could I actually live with an LE14H-3 or LE14H-4 at this point, knowing what I know? Absolutely.

[Dave_72]

You know, I had buyer's remorse with the S4700s that I have, almost to the point of selling them. It's true.

Now, with them fully broken in, I really like the damn things. Sure, I would like to upgrade to the K2s, but I'm not in a hurry to do so.

Now we have these S3900s. I dunno, and I don't care if some magazine rates them higher than the S4700s. I'm gonna try to ignore the naysayers regarding the S4700s from now on.

You got some guy on this board saying the 1400 Arrays are better, and now this.

And as you said 4313B, it's a personal thing regarding the sound. If someone like the S3900s so be it. There's nothing I can do about that.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm gonna try to ignore the naysayers regarding the S4700s from now on.Always a good policy.



You got some guy on this board saying the 1400 Arrays are better, and now this.
People say all kinds of things, you need to decide for yourself what sounds best or more accurately which compromises you prefer.



And as you said 4313B, it's a personal thing regarding the sound. If someone like the S3900s so be it. There's nothing I can do about that.Yep!

And why care anyway?


Widget

[martin_wu99]

Better how? Technically? Yes. Soundwise? That's a personal decision. I can tell you that JBL considers the LE14 to be "old school" and uses it anyway because it remains viable. The 2216Nd is considerably more advanced compared to the LE14. Please keep in mind that quite often I am speaking from a "potential" perspective. Could I actually live with an LE14H-3 or LE14H-4 at this point, knowing what I know? Absolutely.
So i understood,S4700 and M2 are "modern school",ARRAY1400 and S4600 are "old school",they are different style:D

[S4700]

Hi guys, I have had my S4700's for about 5 months now. I too was a little disappointed in their performance initially, however after hours and hours of just letting these this just run in the back ground it's only in the last month they have woken up.
Woken up is an understatement! They are everything I had loved when I first auditioned them last year. I have never had a pair of speakers hide they secrets for so long, breaking in I mean. Verdict?
they rock!!, downside, my neighbours hate me, what is the most impressive aspect of these things? The bottom end! They do weighty instruments so well, I.e bass guitar and kick drum.
Presence, sound stage, dynamics, all very impressive! Tracy Chapman's "Baby Can I Hold You" just about kicks you through the wall when some volume is applied. INXS's "Burn For You" is just an experience to be hold. Alicia Keys' "Empire State of Mind (part11)Broken down" is so spacious and articulate.
I think now is time for me to look at some cables, something I have always been very cautious of! I think the S4700's are going to let me explore the whole cable thing with great confidence. I'd love to hear from you guys at a good direction to go with the whole cable thing. I use a Bryston BDA-2 and Music Fidelity's M6500i integrated amp, 500w x 2 into 8ohms. I like the offerings from Cardas, in particular their Clear range.
Thanks....

[martin_wu99]

You know, I had buyer's remorse with the S4700s that I have, almost to the point of selling them. It's true.

Now, with them fully broken in, I really like the damn things. Sure, I would like to upgrade to the K2s, but I'm not in a hurry to do so.

Now we have these S3900s. I dunno, and I don't care if some magazine rates them higher than the S4700s. I'm gonna try to ignore the naysayers regarding the S4700s from now on.

You got some guy on this board saying the 1400 Arrays are better, and now this.

And as you said 4313B, it's a personal thing regarding the sound. If someone like the S3900s so be it. There's nothing I can do about that.
Why?S4700 is so good,and even better than 4365,you should happy with it,just enjoy it.

[martin_wu99]

Hi guys, I have had my S4700's for about 5 months now. I too was a little disappointed in their performance initially, however after hours and hours of just letting these this just run in the back ground it's only in the last month they have woken up.
Woken up is an understatement! They are everything I had loved when I first auditioned them last year. I have never had a pair of speakers hide they secrets for so long, breaking in I mean. Verdict?
they rock!!, downside, my neighbours hate me, what is the most impressive aspect of these things? The bottom end! They do weighty instruments so well, I.e bass guitar and kick drum.
Presence, sound stage, dynamics, all very impressive! Tracy Chapman's "Baby Can I Hold You" just about kicks you through the wall when some volume is applied. INXS's "Burn For You" is just an experience to be hold. Alicia Keys' "Empire State of Mind (part11)Broken down" is so spacious and articulate.
I think now is time for me to look at some cables, something I have always been very cautious of! I think the S4700's are going to let me explore the whole cable thing with great confidence. I'd love to hear from you guys at a good direction to go with the whole cable thing. I use a Bryston BDA-2 and Music Fidelity's M6500i integrated amp, 500w x 2 into 8ohms. I like the offerings from Cardas, in particular their Clear range.
Thanks....
Sounds you have enough patience to wait your baby grown up:Dit also turns out that"run in" is so important for CD player\AMP\speaker and even for cables

[bubbleboy76]

Hi guys, I have had my S4700's for about 5 months now. I too was a little disappointed in their performance initially, however after hours and hours of just letting these this just run in the back ground it's only in the last month they have woken up.
Woken up is an understatement! They are everything I had loved when I first auditioned them last year. I have never had a pair of speakers hide they secrets for so long, breaking in I mean. Verdict?
they rock!!, downside, my neighbours hate me, what is the most impressive aspect of these things? The bottom end! They do weighty instruments so well, I.e bass guitar and kick drum.
Presence, sound stage, dynamics, all very impressive! Tracy Chapman's "Baby Can I Hold You" just about kicks you through the wall when some volume is applied. INXS's "Burn For You" is just an experience to be hold. Alicia Keys' "Empire State of Mind (part11)Broken down" is so spacious and articulate.
I think now is time for me to look at some cables, something I have always been very cautious of! I think the S4700's are going to let me explore the whole cable thing with great confidence. I'd love to hear from you guys at a good direction to go with the whole cable thing. I use a Bryston BDA-2 and Music Fidelity's M6500i integrated amp, 500w x 2 into 8ohms. I like the offerings from Cardas, in particular their Clear range.
Thanks....


Please describe more how they have woken up! My 4365 are 2 months old now, and are getting better all the time, but I hope there is more to come. Initially voices were sounding thin, but that is gone now.
I will try to make DIY silver speaker cables later on. I have monoblocks, so i only need short speakercables. I have a friend who is a goldsmith, and can get me pure silver.
For signalcables, I will use Canare or Belden xlr from blue jeans cables, I think. Any one tried those?

[4313B]

Well I am certainly glad that these systems are coming around for you guys. The components are first rate and the designer is stellar so I was a wee bit surprised at the initial reports.

[Mctwins]

It has to do with your room acoustics and not your cables. I have had Cardas cables and now I have Supra ply 3,4, not much difference in the performance, if you ask me. But, when I treated my room acoustically, a whole new world open up. Same speaker, but more punch/tight in the bass and clean hights.

[Dave_72]

Hi guys, I have had my S4700's for about 5 months now. I too was a little disappointed in their performance initially, however after hours and hours of just letting these this just run in the back ground it's only in the last month they have woken up.
Woken up is an understatement! They are everything I had loved when I first auditioned them last year. I have never had a pair of speakers hide they secrets for so long, breaking in I mean. Verdict?
they rock!!, downside, my neighbours hate me, what is the most impressive aspect of these things? The bottom end! They do weighty instruments so well, I.e bass guitar and kick drum.
Presence, sound stage, dynamics, all very impressive!

That's exactly my experience. Anyone considering the S4700s should keep that in mind. Meaning be prepared for a long break in period.

But once they're broken in, the do in fact, rock.

You nailed it, S4700. Kudos.

[Dave_72]

Always a good policy.

People say all kinds of things, you need to decide for yourself what sounds best or more accurately which compromises you prefer.

Yep!

And why care anyway?


Widget

Thanks, Mr. Widget for your kind words.

[Dave_72]

Why?S4700 is so good,and even better than 4365,you should happy with it,just enjoy it.

You're right. Thank you.

[fpitas]

It has to do with your room acoustics and not your cables. I have had Cardas cables and now I have Supra ply 3,4, not much difference in the performance, if you ask me. But, when I treated my room acoustically, a whole new world open up. Same speaker, but more punch/tight in the bass and clean hights.

Yes, the listening room is a major ingredient, and different types of speakers interact in different ways with the room. That makes any speaker review sort of a moving target.

[AS-21]

Only yesterday a group of 4 of us spent some time in a high end audio shop evaluating a number of different speakers. They pretty much gave us the liberty of trying out whatever we wanted - as long as we wanted - without a salesman present. There was a used pair of S4700s on the floor which looked barely used and noticing the $20K price tag, we decided to give them a whirl expecting great things. Unfortunately all 4 of us found them rather lackluster which was quite opposite our expectations. YMMV. Perhaps needed more break-in time? :dont-know:

[4313B]

Perhaps needed more break-in time? :dont-know:I really don't know... there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the transducers. They are used in multiple systems to great efffect. The 2216Nd is the current darling at JBL, apparently everybody who is anybody loves it. :dont-know:

But hey, the 4365 is full of some of the best transducers on the planet and look what people say about it. :dont-know:

[martin_wu99]

Please describe more how they have woken up! My 4365 are 2 months old now, and are getting better all the time, but I hope there is more to come. Initially voices were sounding thin, but that is gone now.
I will try to make DIY silver speaker cables later on. I have monoblocks, so i only need short speakercables. I have a friend who is a goldsmith, and can get me pure silver.
For signalcables, I will use Canare or Belden xlr from blue jeans cables, I think. Any one tried those?
From my experience,silver speaker cables is not suitable for JBL speakers,silver cables usually are bright and delicate,but JBL speakers are bright enough.
we usually chose KIMBER 12TC,PAD VENUSTAS,Shunyata,TiGLON MGL-SP1,MIT, Van Den Hul Inspiration and so on.
Again,as somebody say,room acoustic processing is major thing.

[martin_wu99]

Only yesterday a group of 4 of us spent some time in a high end audio shop evaluating a number of different speakers. They pretty much gave us the liberty of trying out whatever we wanted - as long as we wanted - without a salesman present. There was a used pair of S4700s on the floor which looked barely used and noticing the $20K price tag, we decided to give them a whirl expecting great things. Unfortunately all 4 of us found them rather lackluster which was quite opposite our expectations. YMMV. Perhaps needed more break-in time? :dont-know:
You did not tell us which gear you used to drive S4700:confused:

S4700 is not so easy to drive,especially when match with McIntosh,it sounds not good i personally think:crying:

[Mctwins]

You did not tell us which gear you used to drive S4700:confused:

S4700 is not so easy to drive,especially when match with McIntosh,it sounds not good i personally think:crying:

Here you go again with your McIntosh:confused:, maybe McIntosh made in China dosen't sound good:) It has nothing to do with what kind of amp you are running the S4700 as long you have enough power to drive them. Last time I heard S4700 sounded good, as expected. Don't remember what kind of amp it was, maybe Levinson. About cables, look what's inside the speakers, you will be suprized what cables is used here, nothing fancy at all...even High-End speakers.

[Mctwins]

Just read the specs of the S4700, it says 300Watts(RMS), it means that one can use 600Watts of amp power and run continous in 300Watts, if this dosen't open up the S4700, the I don't know what will. Lend me a a pair of S4700 and I will let them sing when connected with one Crown MAi5000 amp:D

[AS-21]

We tried them with both current model McIntosh MC 402 and vintage MC 240.

No offence intended towards any partisans or owners of the S4700- they simply left us feeling rather disappointed. Perhaps a lack of break-in time may have played some role- I cannot say. YMMV.

[badman]

Martin, this is another of several threads where you're taking people's rankings as gospel. They are not. Reviewers, users, who cares, an absolute "rank" is stupid. Speakers are a very personal thing and it's natural for some people to prefer one over another. It's like a jigsaw puzzle- the listener is one piece, the speaker is another, and the room a third, and the amp/system a fourth. One speaker might fit the puzzle better, even if the other speaker has a "bigger" piece (more potential when optimized). Rankings are meaningless at a completed speaker system level. Now, for tweeters being evaluated for a specific platform, there might be an absolute best.

[Dave_72]

We tried them with both current model McIntosh MC 402 and vintage MC 240.

No offense intended towards any partisans or owners of the S4700- they simply left us feeling rather disappointed. Perhaps a lack of break-in time may have played some role- I cannot say. YMMV.


No problem. You're entitled to your opinion. Yes, probably a lack of break in time, I suppose. As well as placement and the room. The amps sound ok. Not exactly sure on all of this as I wasn't there, however.

I have found that these speakers are a bit finicky. They need a long break in time, and proper placement is a must. They sound best well away from the side walls, and very little toe-in, imo. I have them about 2 feet from the back wall, and surprisingly bass is deep but not boomy.

Anyway, when you were there did you listen to the K2 9900s? Just curious.

[Dave_72]

Here you go again with your McIntosh:confused:, maybe McIntosh made in China dosen't sound good:) It has nothing to do with what kind of amp you are running the S4700 as long you have enough power to drive them. Last time I heard S4700 sounded good, as expected. Don't remember what kind of amp it was, maybe Levinson. About cables, look what's inside the speakers, you will be suprized what cables is used here, nothing fancy at all...even High-End speakers.

Well, I agree with Martin somewhat. I don't personally subscribe to the notion that all amps and cables sound the same, if that's what you're getting at. There are differences. sometimes subtle differences, sometimes big differences. It's all about synergy.

[Mr. Widget]

Rooms, placement, source, amps, cables, etc., etc. all affect the system's performance... even though we routinely hear a speaker or some other component at a HiFi show, a stereo shop, or a friend's house and draw conclusions about the sound of what we've heard. Realistically how valid are those conclusions?

I've seen and heard the 4700s only once in a very uncontrolled setting and would never suggest I had a clew as to how they sound.


Widget

[Dave_72]

Rooms, placement, source, amps, cables, etc., etc. all affect the system's performance... even though we routinely hear a speaker or some other component at a HiFi show, a stereo shop, or a friend's house and draw conclusions about the sound of what we've heard. Realistically how valid are those conclusions?

I've seen and heard the 4700s only once in a very uncontrolled setting and would never suggest I had a clew as to how they sound.


Widget

Exactly right. I couldn't agree more. My question(s) to you are first of all, is how much better are the K2s than the S4700s? Secondly, is it worth upgrading to the K2s. Or should I just stay where I'm at and quit worrying about it! :D

[Mr. Widget]

Exactly right. I couldn't agree more. My question(s) to you are first of all, is how much better are the K2s than the S4700s? Secondly, is it worth upgrading to the K2s. Or should I just stay where I'm at and quit worrying about it! :DI don't think anyone can answer that question.


Widget

[Dave_72]

I don't think anyone can answer that question.


Widget

Oh ok. Thanks anyways. :D

[timc]

S4700 is not so easy to drive,especially when match with McIntosh,it sounds not good i personally think:crying:


I will support Martin in this. I find that the Mc's are uncomfortable with large woofers with large voice coils (2KW model is an exception). It sounds "sluggish" IMO. I have not tried the S4700, but with the S9800. (2KW model is an exception).

[Dave_72]

I will support Martin in this. I find that the Mc's are uncomfortable with large woofers with large voice coils (2KW model is an exception). It sounds "sluggish" IMO. I have not tried the S4700, but with the S9800. (2KW model is an exception).

So, the bass would be "muddy?"

[timc]

So, the bass would be "muddy?"

Muddy might be a bit strong, but definitely not as clear and defined as with some other amps. I think the transient response in the lower midrange also suffer. The top half though is very good.

[AS-21]

No problem. You're entitled to your opinion. Yes, probably a lack of break in time, I suppose. As well as placement and the room. The amps sound ok. Not exactly sure on all of this as I wasn't there, however.

I have found that these speakers are a bit finicky. They need a long break in time, and proper placement is a must. They sound best well away from the side walls, and very little toe-in, imo. I have them about 2 feet from the back wall, and surprisingly bass is deep but not boomy.

Anyway, when you were there did you listen to the K2 9900s? Just curious.

Our placement options were limited for our subjective demos- all speakers we tried had to be placed near the center of the demo room.

Unfortunately there were no K2s present to audition. Others we tried were the McIntosh XR 100 which we really liked and a Klipsch member from the RS line (I forget the model #).

[jimg69]

I heard both of these models at home audio sound in Brighton, CO. The 4700 had fuller bass than the 3900. However, both produced high quality sound. My question when auditioning speakers at different price points is - which offers the best sound for the money? I like the sound of both, for different reasons. I would pick the one you feel fits your needs.

I've heard the magico Q7 sound both outstanding and not so hot on two different occasions. Are they an excellent speaker? Without question. Are they 185k/pair excellent? As always, that is up to the individual.

I think the 4700s are excellent too, especially what you can get a new pair for at home audio sound. If you like a little more bottom end, they will make you happier than the 3900. The imaging on the 3900s might be slightly better though.

It is good to see JBL offering high quality home speakers again. Relax and enjoy!

[Dave_72]

Muddy might be a bit strong, but definitely not as clear and defined as with some other amps. I think the transient response in the lower midrange also suffer. The top half though is very good.

I see. Thanks for the explanation. Which brands of amps would you recommend?

[Dave_72]

Our placement options were limited for our subjective demos- all speakers we tried had to be placed near the center of the demo room.

Unfortunately there were no K2s present to audition. Others we tried were the McIntosh XR 100 which we really liked and a Klipsch member from the RS line (I forget the model #).

Oh ok. Thanks for that. I'm thinking the K2s are better. How much I don't know. That's why I asked.

[Dave_72]

I heard both of these models at home audio sound in Brighton, CO. The 4700 had fuller bass than the 3900. However, both produced high quality sound. My question when auditioning speakers at different price points is - which offers the best sound for the money? I like the sound of both, for different reasons. I would pick the one you feel fits your needs.

I've heard the magico Q7 sound both outstanding and not so hot on two different occasions. Are they an excellent speaker? Without question. Are they 185k/pair excellent? As always, that is up to the individual.

I think the 4700s are excellent too, especially what you can get a new pair for at home audio sound. If you like a little more bottom end, they will make you happier than the 3900. The imaging on the 3900s might be slightly better though.

It is good to see JBL offering high quality home speakers again. Relax and enjoy!

Ok, thanks for highlighting the similarities and differences. Now did you hear the K2s, or no? Also, will home audio sound sell to me even if i have a local dealer?

[jimg69]

I heard them all. Like I said previously, K2s are better. But you already bought the 4700s.

Why could you not buy from home audio sound in CO, if you don't live there? I live in so cal. And it is where I will buy.

Sounds like you aren't content with your 4700s....

[Dave_72]

I heard them all. Like I said previously, K2s are better. But you already bought the 4700s.

Why could you not buy from home audio sound in CO, if you don't live there? I live in so cal. And it is where I will buy.

Sounds like you aren't content with your 4700s....

Ok, cool. Yeah, true, but that doesn't mean I'm ruling out buying the K2s in the future.

I dunno, I was wondering if he would sell to someone even if they had a local dealer. I see that he does with you, so thanks for answering my question.

I definitely wasn't for quite a while. I am now for the most part. What I mean by the most part is not 100 percent. But really, what audiophile is 100 percent happy with their system? There's always something that can be improved upon.

[martin_wu99]

Here you go again with your McIntosh:confused:, maybe McIntosh made in China dosen't sound good:) It has nothing to do with what kind of amp you are running the S4700 as long you have enough power to drive them. Last time I heard S4700 sounded good, as expected. Don't remember what kind of amp it was, maybe Levinson. About cables, look what's inside the speakers, you will be suprized what cables is used here, nothing fancy at all...even High-End speakers.
The most important thing for a HIFI system is matching,not only about how expensive machine you use,how powerful machine you use.
We usually spend a lot of time to select gear to match our system,including CD player,amp,cable,stand,it is also the big fun of audiophiles.
I do not mean McIntosh is not good,i just say it is may not suitabe in the system
BTW,McIntosh never made in China:D

[martin_wu99]

I really don't know... there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of the transducers. They are used in multiple systems to great efffect. The 2216Nd is the current darling at JBL, apparently everybody who is anybody loves it. :dont-know:

But hey, the 4365 is full of some of the best transducers on the planet and look what people say about it. :dont-know:
You place 2216Nd in such a high position,i'm curious in which position you will place 1501AL-2?:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Just read the specs of the S4700, it says 300Watts(RMS), it means that one can use 600Watts of amp power and run continous in 300Watts, if this dosen't open up the S4700, the I don't know what will. Lend me a a pair of S4700 and I will let them sing when connected with one Crown MAi5000 amp:D
If you want S4700 works like a PA box,then connect it to your Crown MAi5000 :D

[martin_wu99]

Martin, this is another of several threads where you're taking people's rankings as gospel. They are not. Reviewers, users, who cares, an absolute "rank" is stupid. Speakers are a very personal thing and it's natural for some people to prefer one over another. It's like a jigsaw puzzle- the listener is one piece, the speaker is another, and the room a third, and the amp/system a fourth. One speaker might fit the puzzle better, even if the other speaker has a "bigger" piece (more potential when optimized). Rankings are meaningless at a completed speaker system level. Now, for tweeters being evaluated for a specific platform, there might be an absolute best.
HIFI system is a jigsaw puzzle,very good metaphor:applaud:
but why do we read stereophile?because we want to compare,we need to know in the same system which one is the best,and the conclusion is not made by one person,but by a group of experts:D

[martin_wu99]

Exactly right. I couldn't agree more. My question(s) to you are first of all, is how much better are the K2s than the S4700s? Secondly, is it worth upgrading to the K2s. Or should I just stay where I'm at and quit worrying about it! :D
Dave,forget K2,just focus on your S4700,S4700 is good enough.
there is no bad speakers,only bad system:D
K2 means better CD player,better amp and much more cost:crying:

but i heard somenoe say,9900 is easy to sound good,not 66000.66000 is a monster:banghead:

[martin_wu99]

I will support Martin in this. I find that the Mc's are uncomfortable with large woofers with large voice coils (2KW model is an exception). It sounds "sluggish" IMO. I have not tried the S4700, but with the S9800. (2KW model is an exception).
I think Mc's is powerful enough,but lack of some exquisite and elegance.

[martin_wu99]

I see. Thanks for the explanation. Which brands of amps would you recommend?
Please pay some atttion to some europe brand:D

[martin_wu99]

No problem. You're entitled to your opinion. Yes, probably a lack of break in time, I suppose. As well as placement and the room. The amps sound ok. Not exactly sure on all of this as I wasn't there, however.

I have found that these speakers are a bit finicky. They need a long break in time, and proper placement is a must. They sound best well away from the side walls, and very little toe-in, imo. I have them about 2 feet from the back wall, and surprisingly bass is deep but not boomy.

Anyway, when you were there did you listen to the K2 9900s? Just curious.
Dave,i have to tell you,your break in time is far less enough.
I have two real examples for you,one of my friend bought a pair of SPENDOR SP100,in order to run in,he let the speaker continuously work for 24 hours with an AV amp,face to face,covered with quilt to prevent noise for several month,but he burnout one tweet:crying:finally when he replace both tweets,he found after run in,the SP100 is another one:D
Another friend of mine also had a pair of SP100,after 3 years listening,he sold his SP100 to a man who using 7 SP100 as hometheater,the man said to him,his SP100 did not run in yet:eek: after 3 years,the SP100 still did not run in.

[bubbleboy76]

I heard the S4700 at the Arken-exibition in Gothenburg, Sweden last september. It was absolutely fantastic! Very high volume, with Mark Levinsson gear. It opened up my eyes for JBL again. I had the TiK-series some years ago.
That live-feeling/dynamics to die for :)

[4313B]

You place 2216Nd in such a high position,i'm curious in which position you will place 1501AL-2?:blink:I'm under the impression that the 2216Nd type of driver is the future and the fifty pound AlNiCo drivers are not (providing neo stabilizes in price).

And I think I prefer the 1501AL-1 as opposed to the 1501AL-2. The -1 is remarkably similar to the old 136/2231 with the very low Qts and Fs, coupled with the high compliance. It would be nice to see an 8 ohm version of the 1501AL-1 coupled with the cloth surround of the 1501AL-2. I don't ask for much do I. :rotfl:

[jbljfan]

Throw in the Alnico 12 with the 4 inch VC for me. ;)

[Mctwins]

If you want S4700 works like a PA box,then connect it to your Crown MAi5000 :D

Even if I connect one Crown MAi5000, it will still sound as a S4700, it's all about the right amount of power. It will not work like a PA box or sound like a PA box because I connect it to a Crown MAi5000. You are missing the point here. Still, room acoustics play's a major role here if a loudspeaker sounds good or not.

[Mctwins]

I heard the S4700 at the Arken-exibition in Gothenburg, Sweden last september. It was absolutely fantastic! Very high volume, with Mark Levinsson gear. It opened up my eyes for JBL again. I had the TiK-series some years ago.
That live-feeling/dynamics to die for :)

I had the same feeling when I was there.

[Dave_72]

I heard the S4700 at the Arken-exibition in Gothenburg, Sweden last september. It was absolutely fantastic! Very high volume, with Mark Levinsson gear. It opened up my eyes for JBL again. I had the TiK-series some years ago.
That live-feeling/dynamics to die for :)

Cool, I was impressed with the same system at International CES here in Las Vegas. That is what led me to buy the S4700s.

[Dave_72]

Dave,forget K2,just focus on your S4700,S4700 is good enough.
there is no bad speakers,only bad system:D
K2 means better CD player,better amp and much more cost:crying:

but i heard somenoe say,9900 is easy to sound good,not 66000.66000 is a monster:banghead:

Ok, thank you for the suggestion, Martin.

[Dave_72]

Dave,i have to tell you,your break in time is far less enough.
I have two real examples for you,one of my friend bought a pair of SPENDOR SP100,in order to run in,he let the speaker continuously work for 24 hours with an AV amp,face to face,covered with quilt to prevent noise for several month,but he burnout one tweet:crying:finally when he replace both tweets,he found after run in,the SP100 is another one:D
Another friend of mine also had a pair of SP100,after 3 years listening,he sold his SP100 to a man who using 7 SP100 as hometheater,the man said to him,his SP100 did not run in yet:eek: after 3 years,the SP100 still did not run in.

I see. Yes, as each day goes by, the sounds gets slightly better.

[Dave_72]

Please pay some atttion to some europe brand:D

Right now I am looking at the Japanese Accuphase brand.

[macaroonie]

I may well be wrong in this but I recall hearing / reading that JBL Hi Fi development work is done with ML amps.
Since ML is Harman's in house high end line this would make sense. Having said that I have partnered ML / JBL on many occasions ( hi fi sales ) in the past and it would be my go to combination. I say this I might add as a long time Accuphase owner.
If it came to it I would be hard pressed to choose between either as both brands follow the same principles of wide band , linear response with practically no voicing.
If I had to choose it would hinge on the phono pre amp and in that ML have it by a squeek. I would have a pair of ML6 and be utterly happy.

In short Dave , you just gotta hear both. Neither will disappoint

Oh of course Pass is not to be ignored in all this either. Great product , great bloke and knows his stuff.

You are really going to have to find yourself a good dealer to get this nailed. A footnote relating to this top end decision making , don't judge any of this kind of gear till its been on for a day or so. Plug it in switch on and forget it for a good 24 hrs. Call it burn in or whatever the character changes significantly , particularly pre amps. Any dealer who knows his stuff will tell you this.

M

[Dave_72]

I may well be wrong in this but I recall hearing / reading that JBL Hi Fi development work is done with ML amps.
Since ML is Harman's in house high end line this would make sense. Having said that I have partnered ML / JBL on many occasions ( hi fi sales ) in the past and it would be my go to combination. I say this I might add as a long time Accuphase owner.
If it came to it I would be hard pressed to choose between either as both brands follow the same principles of wide band , linear response with practically no voicing.
If I had to choose it would hinge on the phono pre amp and in that ML have it by a squeek. I would have a pair of ML6 and be utterly happy.

In short Dave , you just gotta hear both. Neither will disappoint

Oh of course Pass is not to be ignored in all this either. Great product , great bloke and knows his stuff.

You are really going to have to find yourself a good dealer to get this nailed. A footnote relating to this top end decision making , don't judge any of this kind of gear till its been on for a day or so. Plug it in switch on and forget it for a good 24 hrs. Call it burn in or whatever the character changes significantly , particularly pre amps. Any dealer who knows his stuff will tell you this.

M

Ok, thank you for the suggestions. Much appreciated. I have in fact heard both Levinson and Accuphase. Matter of fact, I used to own Levinson back in the late 80s. I didn't like the stuff. It sounded dull, dead, and lifeless. Exactly the opposite of the gushing reviews at the time. I sold it to my brother. Anyway, I have heard the new stuff with JBL. It's not bad at all. As far as Accuphase is concerned, I really like what I hear, but I've never heard it with JBL...the same with Pass Labs, I've heard it, and it's good, but not with JBL. I don't believe there is a dealer here in the US that carries Pass Labs, Accuphase, Levinson, and JBL under the same roof! Correct me if I'm wrong!

[martin_wu99]

I'm under the impression that the 2216Nd type of driver is the future and the fifty pound AlNiCo drivers are not (providing neo stabilizes in price).

And I think I prefer the 1501AL-1 as opposed to the 1501AL-2. The -1 is remarkably similar to the old 136/2231 with the very low Qts and Fs, coupled with the high compliance. It would be nice to see an 8 ohm version of the 1501AL-1 coupled with the cloth surround of the 1501AL-2. I don't ask for much do I. :rotfl:
What type of JBL use 1501AL-1?K2S9800SE or K2S9900?i have graet interesting.i trust you:D

[martin_wu99]

Even if I connect one Crown MAi5000, it will still sound as a S4700, it's all about the right amount of power. It will not work like a PA box or sound like a PA box because I connect it to a Crown MAi5000. You are missing the point here. Still, room acoustics play's a major role here if a loudspeaker sounds good or not.
I don't think so and the major question is that is Crown MAi5000 a HIFI machine?:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Right now I am looking at the Japanese Accuphase brand.
Maybe you are right,Japanese always think Accuphase is a great match with JBL and Tannoy:D
but Accuphase is by no means cheap:crying:

[martin_wu99]

FYI

[Goophy]

Right now I am looking at the Japanese Accuphase brand.

I had the Accuphase A-60 with my JBL 4365s for about a year.
Didn't really like the sound, lacked a bit of punch. Sounded boring on most music.

Replaced it with a Firstwatt J2 which I like a lot more. :)

[4313B]

What type of JBL use 1501AL-1?K2S9800SE or K2S9900?i have graet interesting.i trust you:DThe DD65000 uses the 1501AL-1 but I was told just yesterday that that the recone kits had been discontinued. What that means is that the DD65000 is no longer servicable via a recone nor can anyone with a DD66000, 1500AL, 1500AL-1 or 1501AL update to the newer driver specification via a recone.

[Mr. Widget]

You are really going to have to find yourself a good dealer to get this nailed. A footnote relating to this top end decision making , don't judge any of this kind of gear till its been on for a day or so. Plug it in switch on and forget it for a good 24 hrs. Call it burn in or whatever the character changes significantly , particularly pre amps. Any dealer who knows his stuff will tell you this.I recently bought a ML preamp and it discusses this in some detail in the manual. (FWIW: I positively love it with my JBLs.)

For the most part I wouldn't recommend components brand by brand. I do have friends who are brand loyalists and have all ML or all Audio Research etc... and their systems sound great, but I am usually able to drag gear home to try out. I have found that company A may make a great Model XX, but their Model YY may not float my boat as much or may not be the answer for my system.

If possible find a good dealer who will let you audition over a weekend. This type of dealer isn't bargain basement Joe, but in the long run, you will appreciate knowing what you are buying before getting that "great deal" on something you don't love or doesn't work with your system. This can be rather difficult with large loudspeakers, but for electronics most good dealers will work with you.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

The DD65000 uses the 1501AL-1 but I was told just yesterday that that the recone kits had been discontinued. What that means is that the DD65000 is no longer servicable nor can anyone with a DD66000, 1500AL, 1500AL-1 or 1501AL update to the newer driver specification via a recone.That simply isn't true.

It means you can't repair a blown or damaged driver, but the systems are serviceable as Harman/JBL will ship replacement drivers to the dealer to install in your system for you. I've done it, they are fast and offer good service. This may be a bad way to go for the environment and it may be a bad way to go for the JBL authorized reconers, but it does not make the speakers "unserviceable". How long will the replacement parts be available? Probably not the 40-50 years that some of the vintage drivers have enjoyed and yes, that does indeed suck, but to say they are unserviceable is simply not true.

Do I wish JBL/Harman would withdraw their virtual heads from their backsides, you bet... but my respected friend doth protest too much. ;)


Widget

[4313B]

That simply isn't true.

It means you can't repair a blown or damaged driverYes, that was my point. I should have been more precise in my post.

Everything is a throw away now, even fifty pound slags of AlNiCo assemblies. :rotfl:

but you doth protest too much. ;)I just need to reset my expectations lower.

And my protest resulted in your post that detailed how the process works now, so it wasn't in vain. :)

But yes, I do indeed need to give it up.

[pos]

Everything is a throw away now, even fifty pound slags of AlNiCo assemblies. :rotfl:
Are they not reused in the factory when send back by the dealer?
Or do the dealers have to dispose of the damaged assemblies themselves?

[4313B]

Are they not reused in the factory when send back by the dealer?
Or do the dealers have to dispose of the damaged assemblies themselves?Mr. Widget?

[hjames]

Are they not reused in the factory when send back by the dealer?
Or do the dealers have to dispose of the damaged assemblies themselves?

How many of those unobtainium drivers are people expecting to fail?? :eek:

Are we talking hundreds of thousands ... or much less?:bouncy:;)

[Mr. Widget]

Mr. Widget?We are responsible for handling their disposal. You would be amazed at what we send to the e-waste folks. :blink:


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

How many of those unobtainium drivers are people expecting to fail?? :eek:

Are we talking hundreds of thousands ... or much less?:bouncy:;)I doubt it is more than in the dozens.


Widget

[Dave_72]

I had the Accuphase A-60 with my JBL 4365s for about a year.
Didn't really like the sound, lacked a bit of punch. Sounded boring on most music.

Replaced it with a Firstwatt J2 which I like a lot more. :)

Really. I am looking at the A-60s successor the A-65 at the moment.'

By all accounts, it is supposed to be a great amp.

Is FirstWatt enough power?

[Dave_72]

Maybe you are right,Japanese always think Accuphase is a great match with JBL and Tannoy:D
but Accuphase is by no means cheap:crying:

Ok, that's cool...yes, not cheap like a lot of high end audio units.

[S4700]

Ok, that's cool...yes, not cheap like a lot of high end audio units.
Dave 72 seems to me that u need to kick back and enjoy the music mate, go out and see some live shows, experience what you fell in love with in the first place. Start looking for recordings that are worthy of your speakers/system.

[Goophy]

Really. I am looking at the A-60s successor the A-65 at the moment.'

By all accounts, it is supposed to be a great amp.

Is FirstWatt enough power?

More than enough power for me at least. Can play louder than my ears will tolerate in a 40m² room.

It isn't a bad amp, I just think the match with JBL could be better. They need a different sound. At least for me.

[Dave_72]

More than enough power for me at least. Can play louder than my ears will tolerate in a 40m² room.

It isn't a bad amp, I just think the match with JBL could be better. They need a different sound. At least for me.

Ook, that's cool. I see. Well, I wish I could try it (the Accuphase amp,) but that's not really possible here in the US. :(

[Dave_72]

Dave 72 seems to me that u need to kick back and enjoy the music mate, go out and see some live shows, experience what you fell in love with in the first place. Start looking for recordings that are worthy of your speakers/system.

Yeah, probably. You have a point there. I probably am obsessing too much on this equipment, S4700s included. And I do have the recordings, but maybe not enough.

[martin_wu99]

Ook, that's cool. I see. Well, I wish I could try it (the Accuphase amp,) but that's not really possible here in the US. :(
Try as many machines as you can,it is a best way and a only way for you:D

[martin_wu99]

I recently bought a ML preamp and it discusses this in some detail in the manual. (FWIW: I positively love it with my JBLs.)

For the most part I wouldn't recommend components brand by brand. I do have friends who are brand loyalists and have all ML or all Audio Research etc... and their systems sound great, but I am usually able to drag gear home to try out. I have found that company A may make a great Model XX, but their Model YY may not float my boat as much or may not be the answer for my system.

If possible find a good dealer who will let you audition over a weekend. This type of dealer isn't bargain basement Joe, but in the long run, you will appreciate knowing what you are buying before getting that "great deal" on something you don't love or doesn't work with your system. This can be rather difficult with large loudspeakers, but for electronics most good dealers will work with you.


Widget
Abslutely right,brand does not always mean good products.

[martin_wu99]

Are they not reused in the factory when send back by the dealer?
Or do the dealers have to dispose of the damaged assemblies themselves?
Impossible,they are just kidding.
but the dealer do want to just replace your drivers instead of reparing it:crying:

[fpitas]

Ook, that's cool. I see. Well, I wish I could try it (the Accuphase amp,) but that's not really possible here in the US. :(

I tend to agree the J2 isn't enough power; but last I checked Reno Hi-fi will let you try it out if you're interested, and return it if it doesn't work out.

[4313B]

Sell them, buy a pair of JBL M2's along with their amps and call it done.

[Mctwins]

Sell them, buy a pair of JBL M2's along with their amps and call it done.

Best post in this thread:applaud::bouncy:

[Mctwins]

I really don't get it...I have MC252 driving a pair of JBL4319 and the sound is huge in my very large livingroom. Dave_72 , If the S4700 dosen't perform as expected then it only must be that it is your room acoustics anomalies that is causing the bad sound from your speakers, no amplifier will solved this problem. Could you provide a picture of your room?

[Dave_72]

Sell them, buy a pair of JBL M2's along with their amps and call it done.

haha ok maybe. :D

[Dave_72]

I really don't get it...I have MC252 driving a pair of JBL4319 and the sound is huge in my very large livingroom. Dave_72 , If the S4700 dosen't perform as expected then it only must be that it is your room acoustics anomalies that is causing the bad sound from your speakers, no amplifier will solved this problem. Could you provide a picture of your room?

No, they do perform good, great even, but not 100 percent, imo. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate these, but I again, I probably should have waited, saved up some more cash, and gone for the K2s. Hindsight's 20/20 as you know.

I don't have a pic of the entire room. All I have at the moment is this: 59728

[4313B]

I probably should have waited, saved up some more cash, and gone for the K2s.And then have to add a pair of 1500 Arrays to get some bottom end? :blink:

If the M2's don't sound like a good deal to you how about some 1400 Arrays?

[macaroonie]

No, they do perform good, great even, but not 100 percent, imo. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate these, but I again, I probably should have waited, saved up some more cash, and gone for the K2s. Hindsight's 20/20 as you know.

I don't have a pic of the entire room. All I have at the moment is this: 59728

Dave to me those look a little too close together and also should come out from the wall about 4-6". Add a little toe in and you should be groovin'.
But you probably tried that right ?

Mac

[Dave_72]

Dave to me those look a little too close together and also should come out from the wall about 4-6". Add a little toe in and you should be groovin'.
But you probably tried that right ?

Mac

Yeah, basically. Right now, they're 6' apart (sorry I don't know metric) 17" from the back wall. Toe in is actually about 30 degrees.

[Dave_72]

And then have to add a pair of 1500 Arrays to get some bottom end? :blink:

If the M2's don't sound like a good deal to you how about some 1400 Arrays?

Oh really, I didn't know I needed those...why I do I exactly?

Why would I go for the 1400 Arrays when the S4700s are supposed to be the better speaker?

[Mr. Widget]

Why would I go for the 1400 Arrays when the S4700s are supposed to be the better speaker?
Because you might like them more? You never know till you try 'em.


Widget

[martin_wu99]

No, they do perform good, great even, but not 100 percent, imo. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate these, but I again, I probably should have waited, saved up some more cash, and gone for the K2s. Hindsight's 20/20 as you know.

I don't have a pic of the entire room. All I have at the moment is this: 59728
The room is too empty,maybe you need some damping material.such as big sofa,wool carpet,curtain.

[martin_wu99]

And then have to add a pair of 1500 Arrays to get some bottom end? :blink:

If the M2's don't sound like a good deal to you how about some 1400 Arrays?
What Dave really want is a great JBL speaker,a big improvement,not a small step:D
Do you really think 1400 Array is better than S4700:blink:

[timc]

What Dave really want is a great JBL speaker,a big improvement,not a small step:D
Do you really think 1400 Array is better than S4700:blink:

What is a big improvement, or better for a person, is not necessarily the same as the technical superior product. So it might be worth a try, even if price says it's inferior.

[martin_wu99]

Everyone here is eager to help Dave,Dave will be crazy:D:crying::dont-know:

[martin_wu99]

What is a big improvement, or better for a person, is not necessarily the same as the technical superior product. So it might be worth a try, even if price says it's inferior.
Other's honey maybe your poison?:blink:

[timc]

Other's honey maybe your poison?:blink:

Sort of, I just think it is important to keep preference and technical quality separate.

[4313B]

What Dave really want is a great JBL speaker,a big improvement,not a small step:DThen pull the woofers out of the S4700's and put a pair of SAM1HF's over them. :D
Do you really think 1400 Array is better than S4700:blink:The S4700 is arguably for those who can't live with the vertical horn visual presentation. For those who have been paying attention, the vertical horn configuration has no peer. 1200 Array, 1400 Array, SAM1HF over a low frequency transducer of choice. I'm tired of going over it.

I mentioned once that I was just going to turn my 4338's sideways. Nobody laughed with me. Oh well.


Those who have mentioned the room get an A. Get a mic and find out what is wrong with that room and then fix it if possible.

[Dave_72]

Then pull the woofers out of the S4700's and put a pair of SAM1HF's over them. :D The S4700 is arguably for those who can't live with the vertical horn visual presentation. For those who have been paying attention, the vertical horn configuration has no peer. 1200 Array, 1400 Array, SAM1HF over a low frequency transducer of choice. I'm tired of going over it.

I mentioned once that I was just going to turn my 4338's sideways. Nobody laughed with me. Oh well.


Those who have mentioned the room get an A. Get a mic and find out what is wrong with that room and then fix it if possible.

Ok, good point there. I didn't go for the Arrays because of the assembly required. I'm too much of a klutz to do that. Plus, the people at Harman that I talked to feel the S4700 is the better speaker overall.

Anyway, I'm tired of this bs. I know I started it for the most part, but I just wanna forget it and try to enjoy my speakers as much as possible.

[Dave_72]

Everyone here is eager to help Dave,Dave will be crazy:D:crying::dont-know:

I'm beyond crazy, my man. :D

[Dave_72]

The room is too empty,maybe you need some damping material.such as big sofa,wool carpet,curtain.

I do have a big sofa, relatively thick carpet on concrete, and vertical blinds. You just can't see it from that angle...

[4313B]

Anyway, I'm tired of this bs. I know I started it for the most part, but I just wanna forget it and try to enjoy my speakers as much as possible.Perfect! :)

[martin_wu99]

Sort of, I just think it is important to keep preference and technical quality separate.
Yes,good specification does not always mean good sounding,if so,there will be no interesting for audiophiles:D

[martin_wu99]

Then pull the woofers out of the S4700's and put a pair of SAM1HF's over them. :D The S4700 is arguably for those who can't live with the vertical horn visual presentation. For those who have been paying attention, the vertical horn configuration has no peer. 1200 Array, 1400 Array, SAM1HF over a low frequency transducer of choice. I'm tired of going over it.

I mentioned once that I was just going to turn my 4338's sideways. Nobody laughed with me. Oh well.


Those who have mentioned the room get an A. Get a mic and find out what is wrong with that room and then fix it if possible.
Good idea,maybe SAM1HF with 2216Nd is a killing combo:applaud:
You mean vertical horn has much superiority than horizontal horn?:blink:then why JBL only did this in Array series?

[martin_wu99]

Ok, good point there. I didn't go for the Arrays because of the assembly required. I'm too much of a klutz to do that. Plus, the people at Harman that I talked to feel the S4700 is the better speaker overall.

Anyway, I'm tired of this bs. I know I started it for the most part, but I just wanna forget it and try to enjoy my speakers as much as possible.
Does Array 1400 really need assembly?
it is a wise method to play your S4700 in various ways for years untill you totally feel tired of it,then go for another one:D

[Mctwins]

Hallo! Thanks Dave for the picture. Now I understand how it must sound in your room. You see, room acoustics, if treated in a right way, will achive full potential from your speakers. It dosen't matter if it is S4700 or any other speaker brand. This is a major, or schould I say, the only major difference in sound change you will hear. No amplifier, cables or changing differen't brands will help you if you have bad room acoustics. If you ask me, you have very good speakers, keep them. You can see herehttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28924-JBL-3731-and-McIntosh&highlight=mctwins this is mine and my twinbrother(Bobecca) room. The system belongs to Bobecca. Comparing this room untreated versus treated is like night and day when listen to music. This is very hard to describe in words. Just something to think about so you don't spend any money on things that dosen't work. Spend money on acoustic treatment instead:bouncy:

[martin_wu99]

And then have to add a pair of 1500 Arrays to get some bottom end? :blink:

If the M2's don't sound like a good deal to you how about some 1400 Arrays?
What did you mean is that K2 need a sub,and 1400 Array doesn't？:eek:

[martin_wu99]

Hallo! Thanks Dave for the picture. Now I understand how it must sound in your room. You see, room acoustics, if treated in a right way, will achive full potential from your speakers. It dosen't matter if it is S4700 or any other speaker brand. This is a major, or schould I say, the only major difference in sound change you will hear. No amplifier, cables or changing differen't brands will help you if you have bad room acoustics. If you ask me, you have very good speakers, keep them. You can see herehttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28924-JBL-3731-and-McIntosh&highlight=mctwins this is mine and my twinbrother(Bobecca) room. The system belongs to Bobecca. Comparing this room untreated versus treated is like night and day when listen to music. This is very hard to describe in words. Just something to think about so you don't spend any money on things that dosen't work. Spend money on acoustic treatment instead:bouncy:
Great work,it is huge engineering:eek:

[martin_wu99]

JBL 67000 with jeff roland in Hong Kong HIFI SHOW

[4313B]

What did you mean is that K2 need a sub,and 1400 Array doesn't？:eek:The K2-S9900 is 3 dB down at 60 Hz (anechoic). The 1400 Array is 3 dB down at 35 Hz (anechoic). Actual in-room response is lower than anechoic for both. The 1400 Array has significantly greater area under the curve. I hope that helps...

Oh, and the S4700 is 3 dB down at 58 Hz (anechoic).

Another way to look at it:
S4700 Bandwidth ( -6 dB) 38 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
S9900 Bandwidth (-6 dB) 34 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
1400 Array Bandwidth ( -6 dB) no data (2 pi), 32 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)

On another note, the M2 has a 4.7 dB EQ bump at 21.555 Hz with a Q of 1.770. If the aim is to "Get It All", then the M2 pretty much delivers it all. Just saying, since that matters to some.

[Dave_72]

JBL 67000 with jeff roland in Hong Kong HIFI SHOW

Very nice, Martin.

[Dave_72]

Hallo! Thanks Dave for the picture. Now I understand how it must sound in your room. You see, room acoustics, if treated in a right way, will achive full potential from your speakers. It dosen't matter if it is S4700 or any other speaker brand. This is a major, or schould I say, the only major difference in sound change you will hear. No amplifier, cables or changing differen't brands will help you if you have bad room acoustics. If you ask me, you have very good speakers, keep them. You can see herehttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?28924-JBL-3731-and-McIntosh&highlight=mctwins this is mine and my twinbrother(Bobecca) room. The system belongs to Bobecca. Comparing this room untreated versus treated is like night and day when listen to music. This is very hard to describe in words. Just something to think about so you don't spend any money on things that dosen't work. Spend money on acoustic treatment instead:bouncy:

You're welcome! I see, you have a very valid point there, imo. Oh, I am keeping them even if I upgrade to the K2s or what have you. Ok, sounds good. I'll consider it! :)

[Dave_72]

Does Array 1400 really need assembly?
it is a wise method to play your S4700 in various ways for years untill you totally feel tired of it,then go for another one:D

Yes Martin, you have to bolt the horn onto the bass cabinet.

Too much work for me.

Ok, thank you. :)

[martin_wu99]

The K2-S9900 is 3 dB down at 60 Hz (anechoic). The 1400 Array is 3 dB down at 35 Hz (anechoic). Actual in-room response is lower than anechoic for both. The 1400 Array has significantly greater area under the curve. I hope that helps...

Oh, and the S4700 is 3 dB down at 58 Hz (anechoic).

Another way to look at it:
S4700 Bandwidth ( -6 dB) 38 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
S9900 Bandwidth (-6 dB) 34 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
1400 Array Bandwidth ( -6 dB) no data (2 pi), 32 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)

On another note, the M2 has a 4.7 dB EQ bump at 21.555 Hz with a Q of 1.770. If the aim is to "Get It All", then the M2 pretty much delivers it all. Just saying, since that matters to some.
That make sense,you are very professional.so it looks like S4700 also need sub.

[martin_wu99]

Yes Martin, you have to bolt the horn onto the bass cabinet.

Too much work for me.

Ok, thank you. :)
Haha,too much work for you,you just like sitting in the big sofa and plug and play:D

[martin_wu99]

Big JBL

[Mctwins]

Big JBL

Now we are talking, Cinema Screen Array's:applaud: No need for fancy amps and cables:D

[martin_wu99]

The K2-S9900 is 3 dB down at 60 Hz (anechoic). The 1400 Array is 3 dB down at 35 Hz (anechoic). Actual in-room response is lower than anechoic for both. The 1400 Array has significantly greater area under the curve. I hope that helps...

Oh, and the S4700 is 3 dB down at 58 Hz (anechoic).

Another way to look at it:
S4700 Bandwidth ( -6 dB) 38 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
S9900 Bandwidth (-6 dB) 34 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 50 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
1400 Array Bandwidth ( -6 dB) no data (2 pi), 32 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)

On another note, the M2 has a 4.7 dB EQ bump at 21.555 Hz with a Q of 1.770. If the aim is to "Get It All", then the M2 pretty much delivers it all. Just saying, since that matters to some.
Then How about 4365?:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Now we are talking, Cinema Screen Array's:applaud: No need for fancy amps and cables:D
As i know,someone really bring this monster to their home as HIFI speakers.they usually play it with tubes.
I guess this big horn must be your taste:D

[Mctwins]

As i know,someone really bring this monster to their home as HIFI speakers.they usually play it with tubes.
I guess this big horn must be your taste:D

Yes, I like horns. But I like studiomonitors as well. He seems to be a clever man using these speakers as HIFI. I myself using PRX600 series in my home.:bouncy:

[Mctwins]

My system59753

[4313B]

Then How about 4365?:blink:Similar to the 1400 Array but with the 4 dB increased sensitivity of the 1501FE.

4365 Bandwidth (-6 dB) 28 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 32 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)

[Dave_72]

Haha,too much work for you,you just like sitting in the big sofa and plug and play:D

Well, I don't like to have to assemble something. Especially after I paid that kind of money for it.

However, I don't mind fiddling with equipment once in a while. I am mainly an analog guy, you see.

[Mr. Widget]

Well, I don't like to have to assemble something. Especially after I paid that kind of money for it.

However, I don't mind fiddling with equipment once in a while. I am mainly an analog guy, you see.
Having "assembled" my own pair of Array1400s, I agree that they are a bit fussy. However I imagine anyone paying full fare for them should have no problem having their dealer handle the task as well as visiting your home and helping with the set up and making suggestions on how to get the most from your room.

I would agree with those who brought up the possibility that you might want to work on room issues, placement, etc. In my room, I found rotating my orientation 90 degrees and continuing to tweak the positioning made the difference between average and compelling.


Widget

[Dave_72]

Having "assembled" my own pair of Array1400s, I agree that they are a bit fussy. However I imagine anyone paying full fare for them should have no problem having their dealer handle the task as well as visiting your home and helping with the set up and making suggestions on how to get the most from your room.

I would agree with those who brought up the possibility that you might want to work on room issues, placement, etc. In my room, I found rotating my orientation 90 degrees and continuing to tweak the positioning made the difference between average and compelling.


Widget

Yeah, I'm glad you see what I mean. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate that. :coolness:

[martin_wu99]

Yes, I like horns. But I like studiomonitors as well. He seems to be a clever man using these speakers as HIFI. I myself using PRX600 series in my home.:bouncy:
Why not try SRX738?some member here strongly recommend it.it is said that SRX738 is more "live":D

[martin_wu99]

Similar to the 1400 Array but with the 4 dB increased sensitivity of the 1501FE.

4365 Bandwidth (-6 dB) 28 Hz - 40 kHz (2 pi), 32 Hz - 40 kHz (Anechoic)
The specification of 4365 seems very good,but its sunding is another thing,i listened 4365 for several times ,i found it's hard to driver ,relatively S4700 is easy to sound well.
So the specification is one thing,but the sounding is another thing including CD players,amps and speakers:dont-know:

[martin_wu99]

Well, I don't like to have to assemble something. Especially after I paid that kind of money for it.

However, I don't mind fiddling with equipment once in a while. I am mainly an analog guy, you see.
Don't worry,if you pay for 1400 Array,the dealer will do everything for you including some bolts:D
But who is a digital man?:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Big horn

[badman]

Big horn

Don't like the stacked coils- they may misbehave (certainly they'll have more than 2x the nominal inductance of a single one, but other artifacts may occur).

Those Hepa-Litz coils are sweet though.

[Dave_72]

Don't worry,if you pay for 1400 Array,the dealer will do everything for you including some bolts:D
But who is a digital man?:blink:

Haha ok. Well, I probably won't get the Array anyway. Even if it is the best JBL speaker right now.

I like digital too, but I like mostly analog.

[martin_wu99]

Haha ok. Well, I probably won't get the Array anyway. Even if it is the best JBL speaker right now.

I like digital too, but I like mostly analog.
OH,i see,you mean 1400 Array is digital,but S4700 is analog,is that right?just ask 4313B,he knows:D

[Mctwins]

Why not try SRX738?some member here strongly recommend it.it is said that SRX738 is more "live":D

Hmm....Why didn't I choose these in the first place.:D Couple of Crowns and some cheep cables and it will beat any High-End speakers:bouncy: But, I am satisfied with the PRX600...it perform lively as well.

[martin_wu99]

Hmm....Why didn't I choose these in the first place.:D Couple of Crowns and some cheep cables and it will beat any High-End speakers:bouncy: But, I am satisfied with the PRX600...it perform lively as well.
Why not try SRX738?have you do some research on SRX or PRX?:confused:
Maybe SRX738 is better than PRX600,and more suitable for you:D

[Dave_72]

OH,i see,you mean 1400 Array is digital,but S4700 is analog,is that right?just ask 4313B,he knows:D

No, I mean that I prefer analog to digital sound. It has nothing to do with either of those speakers.

[SEAWOLF97]

OH,i see,you mean 1400 Array is digital,but S4700 is analog,is that right?just ask 4313B,he knows:D


:rolleyes: :spchless: :wtf:


Hey 4313B .... can you 'splain that to us ?

[martin_wu99]

:rolleyes: :spchless: :wtf:

you know the answer?please say some word:applaud:

[hjames]

:rolleyes: :spchless: :wtf:


you know the answer?please say some word:applaud:

You are too much, Martin_wu - way too much! :banana:

[martin_wu99]

No, I mean that I prefer analog to digital sound. It has nothing to do with either of those speakers.
And you prefer S4700 to 1400 Array,so......:D

[Bobecca]

martin.....what do you mean? That some speakers have a digital sound and others analog?

As far as I am aware, is it not so, that all sound that is coming from a loudspeaker analog. I havent heard any mention of analog or digital domain kind of sound. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

I have to admit other posters here, you are funny:bouncy:

[Dave_72]

And you prefer S4700 to 1400 Array,so......:D

Yeah, so, so what? :D

[S4700]

Hi, I have been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that you guys need to get off the crack pipe!!
digital sound analog sounding speakers?????
You are talking about source not reproduction of that source!!!!!!!
do yourselves a favour and go and listen to some live bands, instrumentalists etc then have another listen to your systems...
I have listen to Array 1400, 4365 and the s4700's I now own, for me it was an easy decision.
I doubt most of you guys have listened to and live music for some time, in turn have lost the reason we have all become interested in our passion for music.
Forget the box you are looking at, listen to to music!!!!!!!!!!
We are all lucky that the JBL products reproduce live sound better than most.
I listen to music That I have recorded from shows and music that I have produced myself, and the
S4700's do a dam fine job of reproducing these performances!!!
Get out and listen to the live shows then kick back and see how good your systems really are!!!!
mick...
Just a final thought, maybe it's that our systems are that good at reproducing recordings,
most of the time we are picking up floors in the recordings, not the deficiencies in our systems, yes it's import to get our combos right but believe me, I have been in the live music industry for over 15 years, and most engineers I've seen couldn't mix a drink!!!!
And most studios mix on NS10 style monitors for commercial reasons, and band widths between 38hz to 18 kHz, this is a fact!!! Don't look for something that isn't there, further more, most engineers use plugins these days, and not many sound like real instruments!
So do we know what we are even listening for??????

[martin_wu99]

martin.....what do you mean? That some speakers have a digital sound and others analog?

As far as I am aware, is it not so, that all sound that is coming from a loudspeaker analog. I havent heard any mention of analog or digital domain kind of sound. Please do correct me if I am wrong.

I have to admit other posters here, you are funny:bouncy:
Speaker itself is an analog device indeed,but we talk about the speakers's sound here,if a speakers have some digital sounding characters such as very wide frenquncy range,very cold,very harsh,i personlly tend to define it as digital sound and the speaker is so-call digital speaker.otherwise is a analog speaker:D

[martin_wu99]

You are too much, Martin_wu - way too much! :banana:
Nice to see your banana again:D,what is way too much?:dont-know:

[martin_wu99]

Yeah, so, so what? :D
In your view,S4700 is analog,1400 Array is digital?:applaud:

[Bobecca]

Hi, I have been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that you guys need to get off the crack pipe!!
digital sound analog sounding speakers?????
You are talking about source not reproduction of that source!!!!!!!
do yourselves a favour and go and listen to some live bands, instrumentalists etc then have another listen to your systems...
I have listen to Array 1400, 4365 and the s4700's I now own, for me it was an easy decision.
I doubt most of you guys have listened to and live music for some time, in turn have lost the reason we have all become interested in our passion for music.
Forget the box you are looking at, listen to to music!!!!!!!!!!
We are all lucky that the JBL products reproduce live sound better than most.
I listen to music That I have recorded from shows and music that I have produced myself, and the
S4700's do a dam fine job of reproducing these performances!!!
Get out and listen to the live shows then kick back and see how good your systems really are!!!!
mick...
Just a final thought, maybe it's that our systems are that good at reproducing recordings,
most of the time we are picking up floors in the recordings, not the deficiencies in our systems, yes it's import to get our combos right but believe me, I have been in the live music industry for over 15 years, and most engineers I've seen couldn't mix a drink!!!!
And most studios mix on NS10 style monitors for commercial reasons, and band widths between 38hz to 18 kHz, this is a fact!!! Don't look for something that isn't there, further more, most engineers use plugins these days, and not many sound like real instruments!
So do we know what we are even listening for??????

:hurray:

[Bobecca]

Speaker itself is an analog device indeed,but we talk about the speakers's sound here,if a speakers have some digital sounding characters such as very wide frenquncy range,very cold,very harsh,i personlly tend to define it as digital sound and the speaker is so-call digital speaker.otherwise is a analog speaker:D

"speakers's sound here", "digital sounding characters", what is that:confused:. There is no sound that is digital thats coming from a loudspeaker and if you want to describe the difference by using the distinction between analog and digital then its time to use different phrasing. The biggest difference is in the recordings you play the system thru and the rooms acoustics the system is played in.

Like I said before, you are funny on the edge of loony;)

[hjames]

Nice to see your banana again:D,what is way too much?:dont-know:

You! You are too much, hard to be believed!

Speakers are sound transducers - the drivers we are speaking of here work by moving a cone or a diaphram and that moves air.
That is an ANALOG phenomena.

The sound SOURCE may be analog or digital, but it gets converted to Analog and the speaker is distinctly Analog.

[timc]

You! You are too much, hard to be believed!

Speakers are sound transducers - the drivers we are speaking of here work by moving a cone or a diaphram and that moves air.
That is an ANALOG phenomena.

The sound SOURCE may be analog or digital, but it gets converted to Analog and the speaker is distinctly Analog.

Mostly true. There have been experiments using the speaker itself with its natural LP filtering as the DA converter.

[hjames]

Mostly true. There have been experiments using the speaker itself with its natural LP filtering as the DA converter.

Got links??

Its not that there aren't exceptions, but S3900 and S4700 don't work that way
I said "... the drivers we are speaking of here work by moving a cone or a diaphram and that moves air."
We've been talking about standard JBL high end drivers and systems ... Factory stuff, not rare experimental systems.

[timc]

Got links??

Its not that there aren't exceptions, but S3900 and S4700 don't work that way
I said "... the drivers we are speaking of here work by moving a cone or a diaphram and that moves air."
We've been talking about standard JBL high end drivers and systems ... Factory stuff, not rare experimental systems.

I mentioned it more like a fun fact. It was not a weird experimental system at all. They just hooked the DA converter up to a loudspeaker directly. Sounded bad of course, but it made sound. Don't have link on hand, but i think it was an old AES paper.

[hjames]

I mentioned it more like a fun fact. It was not a weird experimental system at all. They just hooked the DA converter up to a loudspeaker directly. Sounded bad of course, but it made sound. Don't have link on hand, but i think it was an old AES paper.

Okay - from that description it sounds like they took the output of the DA directly to the speaker without using further amplification or modification.
So it would be an analog stream, just not very loud and probably impedance mismatched ...

If they fed the speaker a digital stream it would just be square-wave pulses, on/off signals ... ugly noises.

Or am I misunderstanding something (wouldn't be the first time ...) :bouncy:

[timc]

Sorry to say you are mistaken ;)

They used amplifier, but a current amplifier, and they fed the loudspeaker the analog stream before the reconstruction filter. If i remember correctly. This means something with much unwanted HF content. The idea was that the LP characteristic of normal transducers would filter out the unwanted parts of the signal. Thus making the complete system less complex, and cheaper to produce.

[4313B]

Hi, I have been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that you guys need to get off the crack pipe!!
digital sound analog sounding speakers?????I wasn't taking any of them seriously. Were we supposed to?

You are talking about source not reproduction of that source!!!!!!!
do yourselves a favour and go and listen to some live bands, instrumentalists etc then have another listen to your systems...
I have listen to Array 1400, 4365 and the s4700's I now own, for me it was an easy decision.
I doubt most of you guys have listened to and live music for some time, in turn have lost the reason we have all become interested in our passion for music.
Forget the box you are looking at, listen to to music!!!!!!!!!!
We are all lucky that the JBL products reproduce live sound better than most.
I listen to music That I have recorded from shows and music that I have produced myself, and the
S4700's do a dam fine job of reproducing these performances!!!
Get out and listen to the live shows then kick back and see how good your systems really are!!!!
mick...
Just a final thought, maybe it's that our systems are that good at reproducing recordings,
most of the time we are picking up floors in the recordings, not the deficiencies in our systems, yes it's import to get our combos right but believe me, I have been in the live music industry for over 15 years, and most engineers I've seen couldn't mix a drink!!!!
And most studios mix on NS10 style monitors for commercial reasons, and band widths between 38hz to 18 kHz, this is a fact!!! Don't look for something that isn't there, further more, most engineers use plugins these days, and not many sound like real instruments!
So do we know what we are even listening for??????+1

[Robh3606]

Get out and listen to the live shows then kick back and see how good your systems really are!!!!
mick...

Hello mick

I try to as often as I can. Live shows are where it's at, warts and all, there is nothing like them.

Rob:)

[JBLAddict]

I have listen to Array 1400, 4365 and the s4700's I now own, for me it was an easy decision.


Hey Mick, curious what you heard in the 4700s that led you to spend your money there over the 1400?

Thanks

[Dave_72]

In your view,S4700 is analog,1400 Array is digital?:applaud:

No martin, I just prefer analog sources (turntable, reel to reel,) than digital (cd, downloads, dac's)

[Dave_72]

Hey Mick, curious what you heard in the 4700s that led you to spend your money there over the 1400?

Thanks

Same here.

[martin_wu99]

"speakers's sound here", "digital sounding characters", what is that:confused:. There is no sound that is digital thats coming from a loudspeaker and if you want to describe the difference by using the distinction between analog and digital then its time to use different phrasing. The biggest difference is in the recordings you play the system thru and the rooms acoustics the system is played in.

Like I said before, you are funny on the edge of loony;)
Man,i repeat it again,speaker itself is a analog device,but if a speaker sound some digital style(harsh,thin.dry), i'd rather call it a digitallized tendency speaker,not let you call in this way,it's me.understand?
I plays audiophile for decades,i know what is CD,what is LP.
Who is a funny guy,everybody here knows:D

[martin_wu99]

You! You are too much, hard to be believed!

Speakers are sound transducers - the drivers we are speaking of here work by moving a cone or a diaphram and that moves air.
That is an ANALOG phenomena.

The sound SOURCE may be analog or digital, but it gets converted to Analog and the speaker is distinctly Analog.
Lady,everbody know principle of traditional speaker,but in order to distinguish speaker style ,i would say some speakers have digital characteristic.
There is DSP speakers:Meridian DSP 8000:applaud:

[S4700]

[QUOTE=JBLAddict;351660]Hey Mick, curious what you heard in the 4700s that led you to spend your money there over the 1400?

Hi all,
Ok this is what I found, the array to me sounded to laid back and very thin in the bottom end. Actually Laid back is probably not what I mean, They just didn't have the presence nor the bottom end I had grown to love with all my previous JBL's. They kind of reminded me of the TI 250's a friend had at one time, at that time I had a pair of L300's that in my opinion sound live compared to the 250's. And where most hate the look of the arrays, I wish my 4700's looked half as good!
The 4365's well the pair I listened to we're not run in, and there for I didn't really see them at their best,
Having said that from what I did hear, you would need to be sure they saw nothing other than the cleanest source material, they seemed very revealing! I'd love to here them at their best, they seemed to have similar voicing of 43xx of years gone.
The pair of s4700's I first heard were run in and at their best. The bass driver was fast and in control,
There was lots of presence and tonal balance. They seemed grown up to me, and I'm starting to see all this with my pair at home, and to be honest I haven't seen anything yet as I am using an IPod through a Wadia 171 dock, into a Bryston Dac. When I decide on a suitable CD transport, then I will see these things boogy!!! This I am sure of....
Now I want to clear up something for all you guys, as I stated previously, our systems are probably showing up deficiencies in our source material, whether it be analog or digital. We are listening to an engineer's perception of what he is mixing, and what he is listening through!
Probably the thing I get into to most is where the engineer has placed the recorded material in the sound stage, and if that instrument sounds like it should, then there is how everything is layered in the mix, this to me sets a good record apart, in most cases instruments are recorded separately then brought together in the final mix. It's only when a band is recorded as a whole and cleverly placed Mics do you see a tru-ish sound stage. How well our systems bring these performances to us as listeners is where all the magic begins. So please forget all the bullshit about this driver or that, look at the systems as a whole, the sum of its parts, lets pick the shit out of the recordings we listen to and be patient with our systems till they show their real caracter once run in.
Mick...

[Dave_72]

[QUOTE=JBLAddict;351660]Hey Mick, curious what you heard in the 4700s that led you to spend your money there over the 1400?

Hi all,
Ok this is what I found, the array to me sounded to laid back and very thin in the bottom end. Actually Laid back is probably not what I mean, They just didn't have the presence nor the bottom end I had grown to love with all my previous JBL's. They kind of reminded me of the TI 250's a friend had at one time, at that time I had a pair of L300's that in my opinion sound live compared to the 250's. And where most hate the look of the arrays, I wish my 4700's looked half as good!
The 4365's well the pair I listened to we're not run in, and there for I didn't really see them at their best,
Having said that from what I did hear, you would need to be sure they saw nothing other than the cleanest source material, they seemed very revealing! I'd love to here them at their best, they seemed to have similar voicing of 43xx of years gone.
The pair of s4700's I first heard were run in and at their best. The bass driver was fast and in control,
There was lots of presence and tonal balance. They seemed grown up to me, and I'm starting to see all this with my pair at home, and to be honest I haven't seen anything yet as I am using an IPod through a Wadia 171 dock, into a Bryston Dac. When I decide on a suitable CD transport, then I will see these things boogy!!! This I am sure of....
Now I want to clear up something for all you guys, as I stated previously, our systems are probably showing up deficiencies in our source material, whether it be analog or digital. We are listening to an engineer's perception of what he is mixing, and what he is listening through!
Probably the thing I get into to most is where the engineer has placed the recorded material in the sound stage, and if that instrument sounds like it should, then there is how everything is layered in the mix, this to me sets a good record apart, in most cases instruments are recorded separately then brought together in the final mix. It's only when a band is recorded as a whole and cleverly placed Mics do you see a tru-ish sound stage. How well our systems bring these performances to us as listeners is where all the magic begins. So please forget all the bullshit about this driver or that, look at the systems as a whole, the sum of its parts, lets pick the shit out of the recordings we listen to and be patient with our systems till they show their real caracter once run in.
Mick...

Which amp and preamp are you using?

[SEAWOLF97]

If you use or invent new terms, you must explain what they mean.

no need to explain,,,,,,, as long as you keep posting pix of bling crap. :eek:

did you know this IS a JBL/Altec forum ? And if you are so fascinated
with audio fluff, there are correct areas to post it in.

[JBLAddict]

Thank you Mick for the taking the time to detail your experience. Per you comments below, I'm sure most of us agree, however we also probably agree that the experiments can be controlled by keeping the source material constant and clean, and varying only the speakers. Once you have a mix of perceived quality (insert your audiophile rag mag standard), and electronics that are of commensurate quality, judging the speakers relative to each other becomes completely valid; hence eliminating both, the shit....and bullshit :D

I was assuming you auditioned the three speakers side by side at a dealer with a single set of quality source material and gear to leave only the speakers for comparison, was this not the case?

and that Wadia/Bryston combo, assuming your ipod rips are lossless, should be no slouch as source material! I play my iphone rips at 128k, as well as the original discs from an oppo 83SE's analog output to my Performance Series towers and personally believe there's a much unwarranted hype in the chain....... and the mix on the disc, speakers, and room placement, determine 98.53871% of what one hears.




They just didn't have the presence nor the bottom end I had grown to love with all my previous JBL's.

Having said that from what I did hear, you would need to be sure they saw nothing other than the cleanest source material, our systems are probably showing up deficiencies in our source material, We are listening to an engineer's perception of what he is mixing, and what he is listening through! So please forget all the bullshit about this driver or that, look at the systems as a whole, the sum of its parts, lets pick the shit out of the recording

[S4700]

Hi Dave,
I use The Music Fidelity M 6500i, 500 x2 into 8 ohms.

[Dave_72]

Hi Dave,
I use The Music Fidelity M 6500i, 500 x2 into 8 ohms.

Ok, cool. Sounds good. :coolness:

[Mctwins]

Hi Dave,
I use The Music Fidelity M 6500i, 500 x2 into 8 ohms.

Hallo! You seem to have the right amount of power for your speaker. Could be a little bit higher, around 600Watts at 8ohm.:)

[martin_wu99]

[QUOTE=JBLAddict;351660]Hey Mick, curious what you heard in the 4700s that led you to spend your money there over the 1400?

Hi all,
Ok this is what I found, the array to me sounded to laid back and very thin in the bottom end. Actually Laid back is probably not what I mean, They just didn't have the presence nor the bottom end I had grown to love with all my previous JBL's. They kind of reminded me of the TI 250's a friend had at one time, at that time I had a pair of L300's that in my opinion sound live compared to the 250's. And where most hate the look of the arrays, I wish my 4700's looked half as good!
The 4365's well the pair I listened to we're not run in, and there for I didn't really see them at their best,
Having said that from what I did hear, you would need to be sure they saw nothing other than the cleanest source material, they seemed very revealing! I'd love to here them at their best, they seemed to have similar voicing of 43xx of years gone.
The pair of s4700's I first heard were run in and at their best. The bass driver was fast and in control,
There was lots of presence and tonal balance. They seemed grown up to me, and I'm starting to see all this with my pair at home, and to be honest I haven't seen anything yet as I am using an IPod through a Wadia 171 dock, into a Bryston Dac. When I decide on a suitable CD transport, then I will see these things boogy!!! This I am sure of....
Now I want to clear up something for all you guys, as I stated previously, our systems are probably showing up deficiencies in our source material, whether it be analog or digital. We are listening to an engineer's perception of what he is mixing, and what he is listening through!
Probably the thing I get into to most is where the engineer has placed the recorded material in the sound stage, and if that instrument sounds like it should, then there is how everything is layered in the mix, this to me sets a good record apart, in most cases instruments are recorded separately then brought together in the final mix. It's only when a band is recorded as a whole and cleverly placed Mics do you see a tru-ish sound stage. How well our systems bring these performances to us as listeners is where all the magic begins. So please forget all the bullshit about this driver or that, look at the systems as a whole, the sum of its parts, lets pick the shit out of the recordings we listen to and be patient with our systems till they show their real caracter once run in.
Mick...
Thanks for your detail explaination,but i think if you just use IPod as source and made the conclusion,it is not so covincable:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Hallo! You seem to have the right amount of power for your speaker. Could be a little bit higher, around 600Watts at 8ohm.:)
You think S4700 need more power than 500W/8O?:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Thank you Mick for the taking the time to detail your experience. Per you comments below, I'm sure most of us agree, however we also probably agree that the experiments can be controlled by keeping the source material constant and clean, and varying only the speakers. Once you have a mix of perceived quality (insert your audiophile rag mag standard), and electronics that are of commensurate quality, judging the speakers relative to each other becomes completely valid; hence eliminating both, the shit....and bullshit :D

I was assuming you auditioned the three speakers side by side at a dealer with a single set of quality source material and gear to leave only the speakers for comparison, was this not the case?

and that Wadia/Bryston combo, assuming your ipod rips are lossless, should be no slouch as source material! I play my iphone rips at 128k, as well as the original discs from an oppo 83SE's analog output to my Performance Series towers and personally believe there's a much unwarranted hype in the chain....... and the mix on the disc, speakers, and room placement, determine 98.53871% of what one hears.
Agree with you.

[Mctwins]

You think S4700 need more power than 500W/8O?:blink:

Yep, If I would have S4700 I would run it with two Crowns XLS1000 in bridged mode, 700Watts per side in 8Ohm.:bouncy: In bi-wire config. or in bi-amp with XLS1500. Just test it out and see what sounds best.

[Bobecca]

Lady,everbody know principle of traditional speaker,but in order to distinguish speaker style ,i would say some speakers have digital characteristic.
There is DSP speakers:Meridian DSP 8000:applaud:

So, do you mean that my system has a digital characteristic sound due to my DSP in the signal chain:confused:

I dont hear that when I am listening on my system.

I cant hear sound that consist only of binary numbers thats coming from a loudspeaker that is fully analog. Our hearing does not function that way either. Our hearing mechanism is a pure analog system, as far as I am aware.

[Bobecca]

Yep, If I would have S4700 I would run it with two Crowns XLS1000 in bridged mode, 700Watts per side in 8Ohm.:bouncy: In bi-wire config. or in bi-amp. Just test it out and see what sounds best.

BTW, speaking of Crown. I am running a XLS1500 in stereo mode on JBL4312E in my secondary system.

Very pleased with the amp. For that price I am suprized over the building quality and of its performance. It sounds really good on this particular speaker of mine. No digidy sound here:D

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for your detail explaination,but i think if you just use IPod as source and made the conclusion,it is not so covincable:blink:I guess you aren't familiar with the Wadia dock. It pulls the digital stream from the iPod and allows you to send the stream to the DAC of your choice... I have the same combo that he has and it sounds very good. Far better than 90% of the CD players out there.


Widget

[Dave_72]

Yep, If I would have S4700 I would run it with two Crowns XLS1000 in bridged mode, 700Watts per side in 8Ohm.:bouncy: In bi-wire config. or in bi-amp with XLS1500. Just test it out and see what sounds best.

Are you saying the S4700s are power hungry even at 94dB sensitivity?

[Mctwins]

Are you saying the S4700s are power hungry even at 94dB sensitivity?

No, I am not saying that the S4700 is power hungry, it has nothing to do with that. About Power Hungry is something that is said in the High-End side of the world. We where all wrong regarding the 8 Ohm, it is 6 Ohm nominal impedance according to specs for the S4700. It say's, maximum recommended amplifier power 300Watts(RMS). Don't now why they are showing the RMS value insted of the speaker's continues IEC power rating, maybe it is the same. To me, on can use a 600Watts of amplifer power to drive the S4700, meaning twice the RMS value and, as I interpret it, run the speakers continously in 300Watts. Some readings..http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/faqgeneralaudio.aspx and...http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=246&doctype=3

[martin_wu99]

Yep, If I would have S4700 I would run it with two Crowns XLS1000 in bridged mode, 700Watts per side in 8Ohm.:bouncy: In bi-wire config. or in bi-amp with XLS1500. Just test it out and see what sounds best.
why not try Crown MA5000?JBL recommend it for M2,1280W/8O.M2 has the same woofer as S4700,2216Nd:D

[martin_wu99]

So, do you mean that my system has a digital characteristic sound due to my DSP in the signal chain:confused:

I dont hear that when I am listening on my system.

I cant hear sound that consist only of binary numbers thats coming from a loudspeaker that is fully analog. Our hearing does not function that way either. Our hearing mechanism is a pure analog system, as far as I am aware.
Let's end the digital talk and turn to JBL analog speaker S4700,all right?:D

[martin_wu99]

I guess you aren't familiar with the Wadia dock. It pulls the digital stream from the iPod and allows you to send the stream to the DAC of your choice... I have the same combo that he has and it sounds very good. Far better than 90% of the CD players out there.


Widget
What's the music format that storaged in iPod?if it is lossless,it's OK.

[martin_wu99]

No, I am not saying that the S4700 is power hungry, it has nothing to do with that. About Power Hungry is something that is said in the High-End side of the world. We where all wrong regarding the 8 Ohm, it is 6 Ohm nominal impedance according to specs for the S4700. It say's, maximum recommended amplifier power 300Watts(RMS). Don't now why they are showing the RMS value insted of the speaker's continues IEC power rating, maybe it is the same. To me, on can use a 600Watts of amplifer power to drive the S4700, meaning twice the RMS value and, as I interpret it, run the speakers continously in 300Watts. Some readings..http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/faqgeneralaudio.aspx and...http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=246&doctype=3
What you mean is more power, much better?:blink:

[4313B]

why not try Crown MA5000?JBL recommend it for M2,1280W/8O.M2 has the same woofer as S4700,2216Nd:DBut the S4700 is analog while the M2 is digital. I don't understand how they can use the same woofer for both models. :blink:


Let's end the digital talk and turn to JBL analog speaker S4700,all right?:DOh ok, oops, my bad. Please disregard the previous post. I'm so confused! :hyp:

[martin_wu99]

But the S4700 is analog while the M2 is digital. I don't understand how they can use the same woofer for both models. :blink:

Oh ok, oops, my bad. Please disregard the previous post. I'm so confused! :hyp:
Oh,you are so wellcomed,expert,who dare to say M2 is digital?:crying:
I think you'll never be confused on JBL:applaud:

[Bobecca]

Let's end the digital talk and turn to JBL analog speaker S4700,all right?:D

Yes, let us end this talk about digital versus analog and I hope you have learned something;)

[Bobecca]

What you mean is more power, much better?:blink:

Have you read the links?

Audiophiles and Hi-end have quite a bit of catching up:p

[martin_wu99]

Have you read the links?

Audiophiles and Hi-end have quite a bit of catching up:p
Do you know JBL has a AD:drive hard and get more:D

[Bobecca]

why not try Crown MA5000?JBL recommend it for M2,1280W/8O.M2 has the same woofer as S4700,2216Nd:D

Of course that a MA5000 is an option. Just put in the limiter on 300 Watts rms and a voltage limiter of 6 dB at its minimum impedance if the speaker is 4700 and you are done. Just turn up the volume and let your eardrum be the limiting factor when listening:applaud:. The system will at least cope.

I would like to know if such an limiter exsist in the settings of the M2. Does anyone know and could this be veryfied in some way? I dont think that it is 1250 Watts in 8 ohm that is used on the M2 for the subs. It is also intresting to see what power is for the horn. It is afterall a 16 ohms transducer horn.

4313B, can you provide with the info. I know you where able to download the settings.

[Bobecca]

Do you know JBL has a AD:drive hard and get more:D

You didnt answer the question, if the links have been read or not.

EDIT, what is an AD:drive hard?

[4313B]

4313B, can you provide with the info. I know you where able to download the settings.I'll look when I get to that PC. JBL has since made the configuration a "black box".
Just turn up the volume and let your eardrum be the limiting factor when listening:applaud:. The system will at least cope.
With JBL's OCD focused on getting all their transducers to zero distortion levels, SPL has become even more of a danger. It is so easy to toast your hearing without realizing it due to the lack of distortion.

[Bobecca]

I'll look when I get to that PC. JBL has since made the configuration a "black box".With JBL's OCD focused on getting all their transducers to zero distortion levels, SPL has become even more of a danger. It is so easy to toast your hearing without realizing it due to the lack of distortion.

If it is a black box then bump on that. I will cross my fingers until you have checked on your PC.


Regarding SPL levels I can only agree. It is important to know your own limits and that goes for the system as well. When I did gain structure on my cinema system a played a pink noice at full blast and hit all the limiters on my amps for several minutes. I could feel the air blowing in the room due the woofers workout. Two 18" and two 15" doing their job.:eek: But I used ear protection when performing this excersize.


I have to make a video on this and put it on you tube. I hope the mic on my iPad will cope!!:D

[Dave_72]

No, I am not saying that the S4700 is power hungry, it has nothing to do with that. About Power Hungry is something that is said in the High-End side of the world. We where all wrong regarding the 8 Ohm, it is 6 Ohm nominal impedance according to specs for the S4700. It say's, maximum recommended amplifier power 300Watts(RMS). Don't now why they are showing the RMS value insted of the speaker's continues IEC power rating, maybe it is the same. To me, on can use a 600Watts of amplifer power to drive the S4700, meaning twice the RMS value and, as I interpret it, run the speakers continously in 300Watts. Some readings..http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/faqgeneralaudio.aspx and...http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=246&doctype=3

Ok, I see, thanks for the clarification.

As for the rest, I see your point there.

Basically, I'm looking at Class A operation amps because they sound better. To me anyway. However, they are not very high in power and put out a lot of heat. So, because of the efficiency of most JBLs, they would in fact work.

However, a top class A/B design is good too, but not quite as good sounding as Class A designs, imo. The Bryston I use is a decent Class A/B amp. It puts out 300 Wpc into 8Ohms, and 500 Wpc in 4 Ohms. However, the Bryston amps

do not do well with low impedance loads. Do you know what Ohms the S4700s dip down to? So, anyway, since the S4700s are at 6 Ohms, I believe that works out to around 400 Wpc. Not bad? I hope so.

[Mctwins]

Ok, I see, thanks for the clarification.

As for the rest, I see your point there.

Basically, I'm looking at Class A operation amps because they sound better. To me anyway. However, they are not very high in power and put out a lot of heat. So, because of the efficiency of most JBLs, they would in fact work.

However, a top class A/B design is good too, but not quite as good sounding as Class A designs, imo. The Bryston I use is a decent Class A/B amp. It puts out 300 Wpc into 8Ohms, and 500 Wpc in 4 Ohms. However, the Bryston amps

do not do well with low impedance loads. Do you know what Ohms the S4700s dip down to? So, anyway, since the S4700s are at 6 Ohms, I believe that works out to around 400 Wpc. Not bad? I hope so.

I suspect that the S4700 don't go below 4 Ohm, not sure here, I can't find the technical manual for the S4700. As long as you play at moderate level you will be fine with the Bryston. Why do you think that the Bryston can't handle low impedance? What model of Bryston do you have? To me, Class A, I don't think it will sound better because I still belive that you have room acoustics problems. You really have to start to explain what problems you have, when you are talking about diffren't brands or class A, A/B and so on... I say's it again...If I have S4700, I would choose, McIntosh MC601 monoblock, McIntosh MC452 or Crown MAi5000 and set the limiter at 300watt(RMS) or the cheepest way to go is with a Crown XLS2500. Or, keep the Bryston.:)

[Dave_72]

I suspect that the S4700 don't go below 4 Ohm, not sure here, I can't find the technical manual for the S4700. As long as you play at moderate level you will be fine with the Bryston. Why do you think that the Bryston can't handle low impedance? What model of Bryston do you have? To me, Class A, I don't think it will sound better because I still belive that you have room acoustics problems. You really have to start to explain what problems you have, when you are talking about diffren't brands or class A, A/B and so on... I say's it again...If I have S4700, I would choose, McIntosh MC601 monoblock, McIntosh MC452 or Crown MAi5000 and set the limiter at 300watt(RMS) or the cheepest way to go is with a Crown XLS2500. Or, keep the Bryston.:)

Oh ok. I only play at moderate volume late at night. Because they (Brystons) have been measured as such in Stereophile and other mags.

I might in fact have acoustics problems. I dunno yet.

Class A sounds better because 100% of the input signal is used, and the active element remains conducting all of the time. This translates to better sound, or so the theory goes. My listening tests with Class A amps tell me this is true.

McIntosh are good amps, but not Class A. I don't believe in going the cheaper route if at all possible. But thanks for trying to save me a buck or 2.

[martin_wu99]

You didnt answer the question, if the links have been read or not.

EDIT, what is an AD:drive hard?
Of course,i have read it,very useful suggestion.
You don't understand my English?AD:advertisement. drive hard:have a powerful gear to drive your speaker:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Oh ok. I only play at moderate volume late at night. Because they (Brystons) have been measured as such in Stereophile and other mags.

I might in fact have acoustics problems. I dunno yet.

Class A sounds better because 100% of the input signal is used, and the active element remains conducting all of the time. This translates to better sound, or so the theory goes. My listening tests with Class A amps tell me this is true.

McIntosh are good amps, but not Class A. I don't believe in going the cheaper route if at all possible. But thanks for trying to save me a buck or 2.
You too believe in Class A amp.
Not all Class A machine is good,there are many not Class A amp.which are very good:crying:

[fpitas]

Class A sounds better because 100% of the input signal is used, and the active element remains conducting all of the time. This translates to better sound, or so the theory goes. My listening tests with Class A amps tell me this is true.

I certainly agree class A is best when conditions permit. To clarify, the advantage is, as you say, that the output devices don't have to "trade off" or relay from the top (positive half cycle) to bottom (negative half cycle) device during zero crossings. That transition is always a bit non-linear, and extra frequencies are created as harmonics, and as the sum and difference of the input tones (intermodulation).

[4313B]

I-Tech HD Class-I Technology Educational Media - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxZcLhNfXA)




If it is a black box then bump on that. I will cross my fingers until you have checked on your PC.I didn't see anything with respect to limiting. I tried to cut and paste the settings into this response but the data is way too large by several thousand characters. I'll try and make a PDF of it and attach that.

[Bobecca]

I-Tech HD Class-I Technology Educational Media - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxZcLhNfXA)



I didn't see anything with respect to limiting. I tried to cut and paste the settings into this response but the data is way too large by several thousand characters. I'll try and make a PDF of it and attach that.

Nice

So there is a substitute for class A:D

[Dave_72]

You too believe in Class A amp.
Not all Class A machine is good,there are many not Class A amp.which are very good:crying:

Yes I do. I bet there is some bad Class A amps. And sure, there's plenty of good A/B amps out there. I just wanna try Class A. Is that ok? lol.

[Dave_72]

I certainly agree class A is best when conditions permit. To clarify, the advantage is, as you say, that the output devices don't have to "trade off" or relay from the top (positive half cycle) to bottom (negative half cycle) device during zero crossings. That transition is always a bit non-linear, and extra frequencies are created as harmonics, and as the sum and difference of the input tones (intermodulation).

Exactly right.

[Dave_72]

I-Tech HD Class-I Technology Educational Media - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vxZcLhNfXA)



I didn't see anything with respect to limiting. I tried to cut and paste the settings into this response but the data is way too large by several thousand characters. I'll try and make a PDF of it and attach that.

I see, well that's a possibility of course.

[martin_wu99]

Yes I do. I bet there is some bad Class A amps. And sure, there's plenty of good A/B amps out there. I just wanna try Class A. Is that ok? lol.
No problem,it is on you:D
But if Class A is the best amp.circuit in the world,then all the amp.manufacturer will use it,it is not difficult.why not?:blink:

[fpitas]

No problem,it is on you:D
But if Class A is the best amp.circuit in the world,then all the amp.manufacturer will use it,it is not difficult.why not?:blink:

Because even low-power class A runs hot. My J2 heatsinks run at 55C, even though it has a measly 25W. Many speakers need more power, and the fact is that raw power sells amplifiers. Given that, and the fact that the typical listener may not hear the difference on his speakers, especially if they are insensitive, class A will remain a boutique sort of thing.

[grumpy]

especially if they are insensitive

The listener or the speakers? :D

[fpitas]

The listener or the speakers? :D

Could be either one ;)

[Mr. Widget]

The listener or the speakers? :D:applaud: :rotfl: :applaud:


Widget

[Dave_72]

No problem,it is on you:D
But if Class A is the best amp.circuit in the world,then all the amp.manufacturer will use it,it is not difficult.why not?:blink:

Thanks. Well, I'm gonna go with a Class A amp regardless, or at least an A/B amp that does at least 25-50 Wpc Class A.

[Dave_72]

Because even low-power class A runs hot. My J2 heatsinks run at 55C, even though it has a measly 25W. Many speakers need more power, and the fact is that raw power sells amplifiers. Given that, and the fact that the typical listener may not hear the difference on his speakers, especially if they are insensitive, class A will remain a boutique sort of thing.

Agreed.

[martin_wu99]

Because even low-power class A runs hot. My J2 heatsinks run at 55C, even though it has a measly 25W. Many speakers need more power, and the fact is that raw power sells amplifiers. Given that, and the fact that the typical listener may not hear the difference on his speakers, especially if they are insensitive, class A will remain a boutique sort of thing.
The temperature of Class A amp never be a problem,especially in cold winter:D
In China,there are several Class A machines that above 100w/8O,do you need them?:applaud:
If necessary,the can make even more powerful Class A amp.
Look at those Hi-end machines,how many are made in Class A? with their expensive price,people will not care about their temperature,not care their huge dimensions but only care about their sound qulity:applaud:

[fpitas]

The temperature of Class A amp never be a problem,especially in cold winter:D
Look at those Hi-end machines,how many are made in Class A? with their expensive price,people will not care about their temperature,not care their huge dimensions but only care about their sound qulity:applaud:

Well yes, high-end amplifiers. Many run class A for the first 10 - 25W, or more, and get rather warm. It's not a big market, and the average person doesn't want a large amp, nor one that runs hot.

[martin_wu99]

Well yes, high-end amplifiers. Many run class A for the first 10 - 25W, or more, and get rather warm. It's not a big market, and the average person doesn't want a large amp, nor one that runs hot.
We are here just talking about hi-fi or hi-end machine,we are not average persons,and we only care about sound qulity no matter how hot they will be.and the hi-fi amp manufacturers will not only produce A/B or D amp just because A is too hot too big:crying:

[4313B]

and the average person doesn't want a large amp, nor one that runs hot.You're right. It simply isn't necessary anymore. Kind of like giving up the Model T as a daily driver. :D
we are not average persons,and we only care about sound qulity no matter how hot they will beI'm not buying it... I think it's all about the gear. :) For the guy or gal walking down the street with their iPod snapping their fingers? That's all about the music.

[fpitas]

We are here just talking about hi-fi or hi-end machine,we are not average persons,and we only care about sound qulity no matter how hot they will be.and the hi-fi amp manufacturers will not only produce A/B or D amp just because A is too hot too big:crying:

Even given a very forgiving customer, a (let's say) 200W class A amp will require a lot of heatsink area, and probably cooling fans. It will put out about 1.5kW of heat, and the room it's in will get hot. Even high-end gear has its practical boundaries.

[fpitas]

You're right. It simply isn't necessary anymore. Kind of like giving up the Model T as a daily driver. :D

If you're referring to the newest class D amps, like the NCOREs, you may be right.

[spkrman57]

I have 3 different single ended class A tube amps. One is 300B SET while the others are pentode or UL strapped.

They are all less than 15 wpc and I have only higher sensitivity speakers.

I can tell a difference between class A and AB/etc.

I once had a AR class A SS amp(60 wpc), but it was too hot to deal with especially with long listening sessions. That's why I like my tubed class A amps which run much cooler than their SS counterpart.

But if you need lots of power to run speakers than I have no issue with class AB as it's still running class A to a few watts.

Just my opinion to add to the mix here.

Regards, Ron

[fpitas]

A tube class A amp will dissipate the same amount of heat as SS, or more, for the same output power.

[SEAWOLF97]

I've never had a real class A amp. But a couple of months back I did purchase a late 80's technics "new class A" integrated amp.

It is powerful (130wpc) and really does have a sweet sound. Does run a bit warm and is the only receiver/integrated I've seen that has a built-in thermal tripped fan. (tho it has never turned on)

Even if it's just a pale imitation of actual Class A, I may want to investigate further.

[fpitas]

Class A enjoys a semi-mythical status these days. Stereophile's "Class A" components classification certainly hasn't helped, and has only muddied the waters further.

[Dave_72]

Look at those Hi-end machines,how many are made in Class A? with their expensive price,people will not care about their temperature,not care their huge dimensions but only care about their sound qulity:applaud:

Exactly right. :coolness:

[Dave_72]

Class A enjoys a semi-mythical status these days. Stereophile's "Class A" components classification certainly hasn't helped, and has only muddied the waters further.

I would imagine novices getting Class A ranking in Stereophile and Class A operation confused...

[Fort Knox]

Only yesterday a group of 4 of us spent some time in a high end audio shop evaluating a number of different speakers. They pretty much gave us the liberty of trying out whatever we wanted - as long as we wanted - without a salesman present. There was a used pair of S4700s on the floor which looked barely used and noticing the $20K price tag, we decided to give them a whirl expecting great things. Unfortunately all 4 of us found them rather lackluster which was quite opposite our expectations. YMMV. Perhaps needed more break-in time? :dont-know:
Lacklusters' because they skipped the bass and went straight to the sub

[martin_wu99]

You're right. It simply isn't necessary anymore. Kind of like giving up the Model T as a daily driver. :DI'm not buying it... I think it's all about the gear. :) For the guy or gal walking down the street with their iPod snapping their fingers? That's all about the music.
iPod user will never come to this forum:D
I personally think digitallization destroyed the pure music:crying:
We are old school men,aren't we?:blink:

[fpitas]

Thinking back on all the crappy stereos that people had when I was a kid, I think it's just that most people of any age and time aren't real picky about the quality of their music. Heck, until I took it up as a hobby, I wasn't nearly as picky. Let's face it, demanding sonic perfection is an OCD sort of thing.

[martin_wu99]

Even given a very forgiving customer, a (let's say) 200W class A amp will require a lot of heatsink area, and probably cooling fans. It will put out about 1.5kW of heat, and the room it's in will get hot. Even high-end gear has its practical boundaries.
Look at these gears,KRELL KRS-100 pure Class A 100W/8O,Luxman L-590AX Class A 30W/8O, YAMAHA A-2000,ACCUPHAASE A65 60W*2,KRELL 600C,KRELL KSA100 MK-2 100W/8O,HALCRO DM58 200W/8O,THRESHOLD T400 150W/8O.
They are all Class A machines,but they are not all the best:blink:

[martin_wu99]

.......

[martin_wu99]

Even given a very forgiving customer, a (let's say) 200W class A amp will require a lot of heatsink area, and probably cooling fans. It will put out about 1.5kW of heat, and the room it's in will get hot. Even high-end gear has its practical boundaries.
There are many Class A 200W/8O machines in this world:D

[fpitas]

There are many Class A 200W/8O machines in this world:D

I'm not sure how things are where you live, but those are considered kind of exotic in these parts.

[Mr. Widget]

There are many Class A 200W/8O machines in this world:DI used to have an amp that proudly stated that it was Class A right on the faceplate. It was either 100wpc or 200wpc... It was a limited production boutique amp and it sounded very nice. But it sure as hell wasn't class A. It ran warm but not hot. They simply printed Class A on the front because many people buy by label and the manufacturer hoped it would improve sales.


Widget

[fpitas]

Look at these gears,KRELL KRS-100 pure Class A 100W/8O,Luxman L-590AX Class A 30W/8O, YAMAHA A-2000,ACCUPHAASE A65 60W*2,KRELL 600C,KRELL KSA100 MK-2 100W/8O,HALCRO DM58 200W/8O,THRESHOLD T400 150W/8O.
They are all Class A machines,but they are not all the best:blink:


Class A isn't a panacea. We briefly discussed how class A avoids crossover distortion since both devices are conducting equally at zero crossing. That idea is applicable for purely resistive loads, but real speaker loads are reactive, meaning the voltage will not be zero when the drive current is zero. Unbalance raises its ugly head again.

[Robh3606]

iPod user will never come to this forum:D

I will remember that the next time I bring my I-Pod to work like today!:p

I have a pair of the Emotiva 1-L that run 30 watts class A and then switch to A/B depending on the power demand. I have them with my Revel Performa 3 206's and they sound very nice indeed. They also run considerably hotter than any other amp I have owned. They are in the corner and you can feel the heat when you get close to them. Come in real handy in the winter, little space heaters.

I have a nice Technics preamp and an integrated that have the New class A bias in them. They both are very nice and sound good too.

Rob:)

[fpitas]

Intrigued by the New Class A, I found this somewhat informative thread on DIY Audio:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/32254-new-class-whats-mean.html

Depending on who you believe, it's as good as class A, worse than class AB, or everything in between. Bob Cordell even puts in a few words. Objectively speaking, it sounds like it's an attempt to linearize the crossover region by dynamic bias control.

P.S. Bob is right; whatever its virtues or vices, it's not class A.

[martin_wu99]

I used to have an amp that proudly stated that it was Class A right on the faceplate. It was either 100wpc or 200wpc... It was a limited production boutique amp and it sounded very nice. But it sure as hell wasn't class A. It ran warm but not hot. They simply printed Class A on the front because many people buy by label and the manufacturer hoped it would improve sales.


Widget
I don't think a famous hifi manufacturer would only print Class A on the panel in order to cheat its customer for increasing sales:eek:

[martin_wu99]

Class A isn't a panacea. We briefly discussed how class A avoids crossover distortion since both devices are conducting equally at zero crossing. That idea is applicable for purely resistive loads, but real speaker loads are reactive, meaning the voltage will not be zero when the drive current is zero. Unbalance raises its ugly head again.
I don't reject Class A amp myself,i let out so many words and pics just want to explain that Class A is not the only standard for a hifi amp.
Besides,there are many ways to solve the crossover distortion problem:D

[fpitas]

Besides,there are many ways to solve the crossover distortion problem:D

There are, although the most straightforward is to avoid the problem by using class A.

[SEAWOLF97]

Intrigued by the New Class A, I found this somewhat informative thread on DIY Audio:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/32254-new-class-whats-mean.html

Depending on who you believe, it's as good as class A, worse than class AB, or everything in between. Bob Cordell even puts in a few words. Objectively speaking, it sounds like it's an attempt to linearize the crossover region by dynamic bias control.

P.S. Bob is right; whatever its virtues or vices, it's not class A.


FWIW

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17712-Speaker-Safari&p=349903&viewfull=1#post349903

[fpitas]

FWIW

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17712-Speaker-Safari&p=349903&viewfull=1#post349903

For the record, I'm throwing no stones. They're good engineers, who have to deal with many design constraints.

[Dave_72]

iPod user will never come to this forum:D
I personally think digitallization destroyed the pure music:crying:
We are old school men,aren't we?:blink:

I agree.

[Dave_72]

I'm not sure how things are where you live, but those are considered kind of exotic in these parts.

Where are "these parts?"

I disagree, those are pretty well known brands to most audiophiles world-wide.

[fpitas]

Where are "these parts?"

I disagree, those are pretty well known brands to most audiophiles world-wide.

How many per block do you think there are? Yes, they're well known, but hardly commonplace.

[Dave_72]

martin, you forgot the Accuphase A-65!



http://www.acfaudio.nl/image/product/versterkers/Accuphase/Accuphase_A65.jpg

[Dave_72]

How many per block do you think there are? Yes, they're well known, but hardly commonplace.

I still wouldn't call that exotic. What is non-exotic then? Sony, Pioneer, Samsung?

[fpitas]

I still wouldn't call that exotic. What is non-exotic then? Sony, Pioneer, Samsung?

Sure. They all sell many thousands of amps, for perfectly ordinary home theater use etc.

If pressed, I'd draw the line where audiophiles talk about them, but a normal person has no knowledge, let alone dreams of buying one.

[Dave_72]

Sure. They all sell many thousands of amps, for perfectly ordinary home theater use etc.

I thought so. Thanks. :)

[fpitas]

martin, you forgot the Accuphase A-65!



http://www.acfaudio.nl/image/product/versterkers/Accuphase/Accuphase_A65.jpg

You won't be happy until you buy that thing. Just do it :bouncy:

[Dave_72]

You won't be happy until you buy that thing. Just do it :bouncy:

lol! :rotfl:

Most likely, I will...however, the saving up process is not yet over with. :D

[S4700]

I listened to the A-65 with my s4700's, gotta tell you I'm glad I didn't go down that road!!!!!!!