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Brian DK
08-06-2013, 03:05 AM
I am thinking of buying a subwoofer for my Everest DD66000.:bouncy:
I think Array 1500, or perhaps a DIY project with a 18 "2242H from S1S-EX in a small cabinet in the style of array enclosure.
I have no room for S1S-EX, but can just clear an Array 1500 Sub size.

What do you guys think will be the best match for my Everest?
And will the 18" 2242H play ok, in a smaller enclosure?
The 2242H has unlike Array somewhat higher sensitivity, similar to Everest.
What would you do?:confused:

Brian Dk

pos
08-06-2013, 04:31 AM
You have to check sensibility in the target range, not in the midrange of the driver, and you will see the 2242 is likely no higher than the sub1500 there...

If you want a small sub, you will probably end up with a sealed system, and a motional feedback would then be a good solution to reduce distortion and power compression effects.
Check out Rythmik Audio's offering: their kits are not too expensive (albeit shipping to europe make them less of a bargain...), and motional feedback seems to do wonders!

You will probably need several subs to match your expectations (let alone match the D66000 SPL/dynamic potential...) both in terms of SPL and room mode compensation.

4313B
08-06-2013, 06:04 AM
You might want to look at the Revel Rythym2 subwoofer.

BMWCCA
08-06-2013, 07:50 AM
Just curious but I'm assuming this is for home theater use?

Probably more here than just me are pondering why a DD6600 would ever need a sub for two-channel music listening.
It pretty much boggles my mind.
:blink:

Mr. Widget
08-06-2013, 08:43 AM
Probably more here than just me are pondering why a DD6600 would ever need a sub for two-channel music listening.
It pretty much boggles my mind.
:blink:I guess it depends on your room to some extent but mostly the music you listen to. For '70s rock or vintage Jazz... there is no bass below about 40Hz and a sub isn't a consideration... however there are numerous classical recordings and modern pieces of music with very deep bass. The DD66000 as designed does not reproduce subterranean bass. It simply wasn't designed to do it. I don't often miss that, in fact if I play "Thank You" from Boz Scaggs' Dig Album the room pressurizes from the "deep" bass. You would say adding a sub is ridiculous, however I have a number of tracks that have very low frequency content... these would benefit from a true sub.

Back to the original poster. I have considered this myself. I would go the 1500 Array or the Revel Rhythm2 route. I definitely would not use a 2242. I have build subs with them... I don't think the have the extension or refinement necessary. I actually bought a Revel 12" baby brother to the Rhythm2 that I'll be trying out. In my room I don't have space to hide the 1500 Array or the massive Rhythem2 sub. As long as SPLs are reasonable the small 12" sub should be fine. As suggested by Mr. BWM... the need is minimal. I will give it a whirl, but I haven't had time to hook it up and balance it into my system.


Widget

BMWCCA
08-06-2013, 03:27 PM
Thanks for that thoughtful explanation.

I can't imagine needing to augment the LF response on my 4345 and hold the DD6600 in awe, though I've never heard them.

hlaari
08-06-2013, 04:21 PM
I think at the 15" W1500H in 1500Array are much better than 2242H for sub in home audio system
the only 18" driver I am interested to try for sub is 2269G/H

of course you can also go for the new 18" Revel sub
this sub is build with same magnet and basket like 2269 with different cone

Chas
08-06-2013, 04:49 PM
Thanks for that thoughtful explanation.

I can't imagine needing to augment the LF response on my 4345 and hold the DD6600 in awe, though I've never heard them.

Hmmm....I've had sub1500's with my 4345's for years. Needed in my room:)

Brian DK
08-07-2013, 01:38 AM
I agree with Mr. Widget.
At most music is a sub not necessary.
But I also play some modern music, where I miss the deep bass.
And in general just the thought of how the system will sound if it comes down to 20Hz and not the 45Hz where Everest roll off.

Thanks to you all for ideas, I think I will try to get hold on 2 Array 1500.

Fort Knox
08-07-2013, 04:52 AM
Just curious but I'm assuming this is for home theater use?

Probably more here than just me are pondering why a DD6600 would ever need a sub for two-channel music listening.
It pretty much boggles my mind.
:blink:


Because you have to go back to basics...
two bass sources... tend to cancel one another
a sub ...(w/dedicated freqs) won't

Lee in Montreal
08-07-2013, 06:29 AM
THis early Spring, I built an 11cft 2245-based sub and am very happy with it. The sub bass is very musical and not a one note hit. The sub works from 20Hz to 50Hz to complement a 2-way 2226/2360 system. I am very pleased after 6 months. The cabinet has since been dyed tangerine on the sides, and satin black on the front panel, to better integrate with the other cabinets. I am a firm believer that there'S no substitute for a large enclosure to get an easy breathy deep bass... Can't beat the laws of physic. ;-)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL parts factory/DSCN2571_zps2b7109de.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL parts factory/DSCN2572_zps40716a70.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL parts factory/DSCN2574_zpseea4a070.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/883153_564405090257530_411380388_o.jpg

4313B
08-07-2013, 07:51 AM
I agree with Mr. Widget.
At most music is a sub not necessary.
But I also play some modern music, where I miss the deep bass.
And in general just the thought of how the system will sound if it comes down to 20Hz and not the 45Hz where Everest roll off.

Thanks to you all for ideas, I think I will try to get hold on 2 Array 1500.The stock Everest II is tuned to ~ 31 Hz. You can apply some EQ at that frequency to fill in the area under the curve. The 1500 Array will only buy you a few more Hz for a ton more money.

Quite frankly, I'd just tune the Everest II box down to around 27 to 28 Hz and apply a few dB of EQ at that frequency. That's what I did with my clones.

For comparison, the 1500 Array runs a 4 dB EQ bump at 26 Hz, very similar to the original B380 and B460.

My point is, there is so much potential in the Everest II system. Dump the passive filter, go DSP as per the M2 and end up with a system that is actually worth something remotely approaching $60,000 per pair.


What am I saying! Just buy a pair of 1500 Arrays. You've already spent $60,000 so what's another ten grand or so. :)
But definitely get some kind of bass management setup for them.

Mr. Widget
08-07-2013, 08:21 AM
My point is, there is so much potential in the Everest II system. Dump the passive filter, go DSP as per the M2 and end up with a system that is actually worth something remotely approaching $60,000 per pair.I both agree and disagree. Conceptually I agree completely. Unfortunately in practice, I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.

In my system, I have taken the analog chain up several notches and it is the source of choice. I fear it would be extremely costly to insert a DSP into the mix and not step backwards. I have been considering playing around with a Meyer Sound analog PEQ. I'm not sure it will be quiet and transparent enough though.

All that said, yes the pair of 1501ALs in the E2 are capable of phenomenal output at a level of sonic excellence that is near the pinicle of what is possible... very curious about the woofers in the DD67000.


Widget

Hoerninger
08-07-2013, 08:53 AM
... I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.
All of these contain amp stages. The simplest form would be a one or two OP amp circuit with some LF boost. Some tests before with a parametric equalizer stage might be useful. But who can offer this engineering?

I have doubts about an extra speaker and another amp because the room behavier is unclear. And I see it just as well:

the pair of 1501ALs in the E2 are capable of phenomenal output at a level of sonic excellence that is near the pinicle of what is possible...
____________
Peter

4313B
08-07-2013, 10:34 AM
Unfortunately in practice, I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.I've lost track of where certain people are with respect to going active with their Everest systems.
I'm not sure it will be quiet and transparent enough though.I'm at the point where the next step requires having the master tapes on hand.
All that said, yes the pair of 1501ALs in the E2 are capable of phenomenal output at a level of sonic excellence that is near the pinicle of what is possible... very curious about the woofers in the DD67000.I'm hoping for some kind of hybrid, the Fs of the 1501AL-1 coupled with the surround of the 1501AL-2 along with an 8 ohm voice coil. :rotfl:

But, a complete waste of time to even think about since HAdM has no interest in manufacturing any of it. :rotfl: No recone kits, no raw transducers, nothing.

Jonas_h
08-07-2013, 11:32 AM
I both agree and disagree. Conceptually I agree completely. Unfortunately in practice, I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.
SDEC or the BSS equivalent?

Mr. Widget
08-07-2013, 01:51 PM
SDEC or the BSS equivalent?
No way! They are fine in a theater scenario... but are not even close to invisible sounding.


Widget

Mr. Widget
08-07-2013, 02:00 PM
But, a complete waste of time to even think about since HAdM has no interest in manufacturing any of it. :rotfl: No recone kits, no raw transducers, nothing.You never know... things sometimes do change for the better... maybe someone will kick Harman's butt in car audio and the insignificant home market will matter again.


Widget

Jonas_h
08-08-2013, 03:36 AM
No way! They are fine in a theater scenario... but are not even close to invisible sounding.
Widget
Have you A/B tested it? I haven't A/B testet myself as my speakers require the active crossover, but I was under the impression that the SDEC was close to invisible. In what way do you think it degrades the SQ?

Mr. Widget
08-08-2013, 08:17 AM
Have you A/B tested it? I haven't A/B testet myself as my speakers require the active crossover, but I was under the impression that the SDEC was close to invisible. In what way do you think it degrades the SQ?It would be extremely difficult to AB an SDEC with an all analog alternative, but I have listened to many systems with the SDECs in them. They are amazingly powerful and an excellent choice for a home theater or used in their pro audio skin as a pro audio piece.

But no they are not invisible. I don't have objective measurements or even a scientific explanation why, but virtually every DSP I've heard will crush the sense of depth in a two channel system. They typically add what I very subjectively call digital haze to the sound.

Here is another data point. Neither Kevin Voecks or Greg Timbers use them in their very high end home stereo systems... and I doubt it is due to the cost.


Widget

timc
08-08-2013, 09:09 AM
I both agree and disagree. Conceptually I agree completely. Unfortunately in practice, I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.

Have a go at the Four-audio :)

4313B
08-08-2013, 10:01 AM
Here is another data point. Neither Kevin Voecks or Greg Timbers use them in their very high end home stereo systems... and I doubt it is due to the cost.Well Ed Meitner should gift them some gear then! :rotfl:
All of these contain amp stages. The simplest form would be a one or two OP amp circuit with some LF boost. Some tests before with a parametric equalizer stage might be useful. But who can offer this engineering?I think what needs to happen is the Crown I-Tech HD Series technology needs to filter down. Several people have stated that the top end of these amps isn't first rate. So fix that and get on with it. I think the Crown is something like six grand. Toss another grand or two at it to clean up any top end issues and sell a billion of them. I would actually spend money for something like that.

just4kinks
08-08-2013, 10:15 AM
I both agree and disagree. Conceptually I agree completely. Unfortunately in practice, I am not sure which AD/DSP/DAC combination would be truly invisible.

In my system, I have taken the analog chain up several notches and it is the source of choice. I fear it would be extremely costly to insert a DSP into the mix and not step backwards. I have been considering playing around with a Meyer Sound analog PEQ. I'm not sure it will be quiet and transparent enough though.



All of these contain amp stages. The simplest form would be a one or two OP amp circuit with some LF boost. Some tests before with a parametric equalizer stage might be useful. But who can offer this engineering?


I have been working on a lot of discrete analog lately. I'm almost finished with my LR4 crossover and I have started a PEQ board. Custom circuits / filters are possible, of course I would need detailed specifications. I was thinking about a simple LF boost module as well.

Anyone interested? Let me know what you're looking for, I'll keep it in mind as I finish the engineering.

4313B
08-08-2013, 10:36 AM
I have been working on a lot of discrete analog lately. I'm almost finished with my LR4 crossover and I have started a PEQ board. Custom circuits / filters are possible, of course I would need detailed specifications. I was thinking about a simple LF boost module as well.

Anyone interested? Let me know what you're looking for, I'll keep it in mind as I finish the engineering.JBL likes to tune their better systems in the 25 Hz to 35 Hz range so a bump filter with variable Q and boost should do the trick.

It could potentially be interesting to get hold of some of the new 1501AL-1s as used in the DD65000 and try them out in 20 Hz subwoofer systems. I was gifted five of them but let someone else have them rather than hassle with shipping them to me.

I just can't see bothering to add a 26 Hz system like the 1500 Array to an Everest II, which, in stock form, is a 31 Hz system that could potentially benefit from a little boost at that frequency in certain environments. That's why I sold my 2242H's, SUB1500's, and W1500H's... four 1500AL's are pretty much peerless in my opinion. But whatever works. If the 1500 Array fills the bill for the task at hand so be it.

Fort Knox
08-08-2013, 05:36 PM
THis early Spring, I built an 11cft 2245-based sub and am very happy with it. The sub bass is very musical and not a one note hit. The sub works from 20Hz to 50Hz to complement a 2-way 2226/2360 system. I am very pleased after 6 months. The cabinet has since been dyed tangerine on the sides, and satin black on the front panel, to better integrate with the other cabinets. I am a firm believer that there'S no substitute for a large enclosure to get an easy breathy deep bass... Can't beat the laws of physic. ;-




Nice Job:)

1audiohack
08-08-2013, 07:03 PM
It could potentially be interesting to get hold of some of the new 1501AL-1s as used in the DD65000 and try them out in 20 Hz subwoofer systems. I was gifted five of them but let someone else have them rather than hassle with shipping them to me.

Funny, four of them are in a project that is close to that very concept. I'm currently working out the DSP now. :)

ivica
08-09-2013, 02:39 AM
I am thinking of buying a subwoofer for my Everest DD66000.:bouncy:
I think Array 1500, or perhaps a DIY project with a 18 "2242H from S1S-EX in a small cabinet in the style of array enclosure.
I have no room for S1S-EX, but can just clear an Array 1500 Sub size.

What do you guys think will be the best match for my Everest?
And will the 18" 2242H play ok, in a smaller enclosure?
The 2242H has unlike Array somewhat higher sensitivity, similar to Everest.
What would you do?:confused:

Brian Dk

Hi Brain Dk,

I have no experience with DD66000, but from my point of view two sub-woofer boxes with TWO 2242H in each box seems to give You
-3dB at around 28Hz, if each driver-box is tuned at around 28Hz, due to the drivers mutual coupling.
So totally 4 pieces of 2242 and two boxes of around 500Lit each without the equalization .

Regards
Ivica

pos
08-09-2013, 05:22 AM
Funny, four of them are in a project that is close to that very concept. I'm currently working out the DSP now. :)
Are these 1501AL-1?

Fort Knox
08-09-2013, 05:47 AM
But no they are not invisible. I don't have objective measurements or even a scientific explanation why, but virtually every DSP I've heard will crush the sense of depth in a two channel system. They typically add what I very subjectively call digital haze to the sound.


Widget[/QUOTE]

I agree.......I would call it a "non-developed" substiute...
that goes for 4 ch too

4313B
08-09-2013, 05:47 AM
Funny, four of them are in a project that is close to that very concept. I'm currently working out the DSP now. :)Well I hope they work out for you. They should do quite well.

I wish the recone kits were available but they just won't make any. All of the 1501 variants are kind of indestructible and I've heard that the major issue is with replacing dust caps. So I guess one can at least buy new dust caps.
Are these 1501AL-1?Yes.

I was also gifted a bunch of other transducers and passed them all along to other folks I thought would put them to good use.
Hi Brain Dk,

I have no experience with DD66000, but from my point of view two sub-woofer boxes with TWO 2242H in each box seems to give You
-3dB at around 28Hz, if each driver-box is tuned at around 28Hz, due to the drivers mutual coupling.
So totally 4 pieces of 2242 and two boxes of around 500Lit each without the equalization .

Regards
IvicaI have experience with them all. I guess I just don't understand putting S1S and S2S subwoofers with systems like the K2 and the DD6x000. It's kind of "low rent".

Like I've said, JBL needs to make the 1501AL-1's available over the counter, in a viable shipping carton, as originally discussed, and let us do what we need to do.

I'm not going to put a one thousand dollar sound reinforcement transducer beneath a two thousand dollar SOTFA AlNiCo stucture just because I think I need three more Hz on the bottom end.

It is my personal opinion that someone who ponies up for a sixty five thousand dollar pair of loudspeakers should be able to buy a spare pair of 1501AL-1's, or, if they so choose, upgrade their 1501AL's to 1501AL-1's or 1501AL-2's.

And really... if extension to 20 Hz is all that important just dump these high priced Consumer systems, buy a pair of M2's and get 20 Hz all day, everyday. If the M2 is too inefficient, then wait for the dual 2216Nd system. Buy the right amps with them. You'll have about thirty thousand dollars left over to buy some beer and pizza to enjoy while you are sitting down listening to them.

Maron Horonzakz
08-09-2013, 08:12 AM
GEEEEES !!! Why not just by a stack of AR-1 s ,,,,not much music an those low frequencies,,,:bouncy:

ivica
08-11-2013, 02:45 AM
Well I hope they work out for you. They should do quite well.

I wish the recone kits were available but they just won't make any. All of the 1501 variants are kind of indestructible and I've heard that the major issue is with replacing dust caps. So I guess one can at least buy new dust caps.Yes.

I was also gifted a bunch of other transducers and passed them all along to other folks I thought would put them to good use.I have experience with them all. I guess I just don't understand putting S1S and S2S subwoofers with systems like the K2 and the DD6x000. It's kind of "low rent".

Like I've said, JBL needs to make the 1501AL-1's available over the counter, in a viable shipping carton, as originally discussed, and let us do what we need to do.

...........
It is my personal opinion that someone who ponies up for a sixty five thousand dollar pair of loudspeakers should be able to buy a spare pair of 1501AL-1's, or, if they so choose, upgrade their 1501AL's to 1501AL-1's or 1501AL-2's.

And really... if extension to 20 Hz is all that important just dump these high priced Consumer systems, buy a pair of M2's and get 20 Hz all day, everyday. If the M2 is too inefficient, then wait for the dual 2216Nd system. Buy the right amps with them. You'll have about thirty thousand dollars left over to buy some beer and pizza to enjoy while you are sitting down listening to them.

Hi 4313B,

I absolutely agree with You that JBL has to improve its customer relationship and to allow them, even the others too, the availability of the new technology 1501AL series drivers. May be on the existing one ( in DD66000) some kind od "upgrade" can be done by exchanging cone suspensions, and adding some kind of inner mass ring in order to reduce drivers Fs, but I wonder what would happen with Xmax, and the THD after such "upgrade". Generally speaking I think that it would be difficult to make driver tha would have Fs around 20Hz (or less), 93 dB/1W/1m sensitivity, and would have low THD up to 1kHz, so at the end 4-way system seems to me more realistic....

Regards
Ivica

Fort Knox
08-13-2013, 03:05 AM
I guess it depends on your room to some extent but mostly the music you listen to. For '70s rock or vintage Jazz... there is no bass below about 40Hz and a sub isn't a consideration...

Widget
I read that magnetic tape looses it s/n ratio min/hours after recording......
Days later it's worse....bass suffered because of it ....I guess..

Fort Knox
08-13-2013, 05:28 AM
I think at the 15" W1500H in 1500Array are much better than 2242H for sub in home audio system
the only 18" driver I am interested to try for sub is 2269G/H

of course you can also go for the new 18" Revel sub
this sub is build with same magnet and basket like 2269 with different cone

This thread has been good for me
I revisited my sub...Eq'g it flat to 20hz
than turned the thing (subamp) ..off ..then brought... it in slow..
bass/transparency seem to be the TRADE OFF
then..... turn off all the mains...to listen for the sub
NO Sub...then it occured to me I was feeling/not hearing........
a live TV hookup w/no sub filter was used as test source..

ivica
08-13-2013, 05:51 AM
I read that magnetic tape looses it s/n ratio min/hours after recording......
Days later it's worse....bass suffered because of it ....I guess..

Hi F_Knox,

these losses are far from being recognizable after years have passed, if the tape are of quality one.

Regards
ivica

Mr. Widget
08-13-2013, 08:10 AM
I read that magnetic tape looses it s/n ratio min/hours after recording......
Days later it's worse....bass suffered because of it ....I guess..Well... no.

I'm not sure how old you are, but even live pop/rock music back then didn't have the deep bass we hear today. It was probably due to the fact that they had no way to reproduce it. Even with mutual coupling the stacks of LE15As that the Dead used is nothing compared to the bottom end of today's massive systems.


Widget

4313B
08-13-2013, 08:34 AM
Hi 4313B,

I absolutely agree with You that JBL has to improve its customer relationship and to allow them, even the others too, the availability of the new technology 1501AL series drivers. May be on the existing one ( in DD66000) some kind od "upgrade" can be done by exchanging cone suspensions, and adding some kind of inner mass ring in order to reduce drivers Fs, but I wonder what would happen with Xmax, and the THD after such "upgrade". Generally speaking I think that it would be difficult to make driver tha would have Fs around 20Hz (or less), 93 dB/1W/1m sensitivity, and would have low THD up to 1kHz, so at the end 4-way system seems to me more realistic....

Regards
IvicaI was told just yesterday that JBL has discontinued all the 1500AL (K2-S9800) and 1501AL (DD66000) recone kits so there is no longer any option to recone 1500AL's (K2-S9800), 1500AL-1's (K2-S9900) or 1501AL's (DD66000) to 1501AL-1's (DD65000).

Note there was never an option to use the 1501AL-2 (DD67000) recone kit as the 1500AL frame required machining to make that possible as I detailed in a previous post with respect to all these drivers and their cone assemblies.

In other words, the 1501AL-2 (DD67000) frame is unique. It will take any of the recone kits, none of which exist anymore, while all the other frames can accept all kits except the 1501AL-2 (DD67000) kit.

This means that the DD65000, DD66000 and DD67000 are no longer servicable via recones or rediaphragms. I would think that JBL would do whole driver swaps if the need should arise. But I wouldn't bet your life on it at this point.

It's really too bad because the 1501AL-1 looked like it could be an excellent subwoofer transducer, especially in a QB5 or B6 assisted alignment.

badman
08-13-2013, 08:56 AM
The focus has been on JBL subwoofers here, and single ones at that....

Multisub is a much better way to achieve smooth room response. One could use a handful of Rythmiks and get servo-corrected bass, with tons of clean output, and low room interaction.

http://rythmikaudio.com/F15.html

Alternatively, some infinite baffle manifolds scattered around the room would be pretty killer. There are infinite baffle subs available from acousticelegance and parts express.

pos
08-13-2013, 09:17 AM
Multisub is a much better way to achieve smooth room response. One could use a handful of Rythmiks and get servo-corrected bass, with tons of clean output, and low room interaction.

http://rythmikaudio.com/F15.html
Agreed, that was my point in post #2 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34672-Sub-for-Everest-DD66000&p=350871&viewfull=1#post350871) of this thread

pos
08-13-2013, 09:20 AM
It's really too bad because the 1501AL-1 looked like it could be an excellent subwoofer transducer, especially in a QB5 or B6 assisted alignment.
I would love to use those 1501AL-1 in the 30Hz-250Hz range...
Sort of like the 2235H or 2245H, right between subwoofer and woofer territory.

1audiohack, If you ever feel the urge to sell those drivers, please drop me a line ;)

4313B
08-13-2013, 09:48 AM
I would love to use those 1501AL-1 in the 30Hz-250Hz range...
Sort of like the 2235H or 2245H, right between subwoofer and woofer territory.

1audiohack, If you ever feel the urge to sell those drivers, please drop me a line ;)3.5 cu ft tuned to 20 Hz with a 20 Hz bump filter. The only concern would be xMax in really large rooms. For someone like me with a normal sized room a pair could be real killer. But really, given that there is no way to repair them correctly, I wouldn't want to spend two grand on a non-servicable transducer.

pos
08-13-2013, 09:57 AM
But really, given that there is no way to repair them correctly, I wouldn't want to spend two grand on a non-servicable transducer.
Why and how would you damage them (out of the dustcap) in home situation with a modern amplifier (read "not a phase linear" ;) ) ?
Personally I would have two pairs of those :D

matsj
08-13-2013, 03:44 PM
Why not give up Jbl and look for other brands ? Since Jbl doesn`t want to support DIY, all the fun is gone. BTW i have 4 W1500H subs for my 2ch and cinema and they sounds great in my ears. I don´t have a pair off Everest, but i have 4345 and my TAD 4 way. Why dream of all these Unobtainium drivers ???

In my Dreams i hope that the Jbl/Harman President can support us diyuers in the future! To show the rest of the world how the best are!

Mats

Fort Knox
08-13-2013, 07:05 PM
The focus has been on JBL subwoofers here, and single ones at that....

Multisub is a much better way to achieve smooth room response. One could use a handful of Rythmiks and get servo-corrected bass, with tons of clean output, and low room interaction.

http://rythmikaudio.com/F15.html

Alternatively, some infinite baffle manifolds scattered around the room would be pretty killer. There are infinite baffle subs available from acousticelegance and parts express.
I disagree..Ive already tryed multi subs and a single works best for me...now outdoors is a differant story...
I've heard yard parties ..lately.....(4 of um Saterday ..... where I couldn't tell if it was a live band ..or PA
Especially w the sound bouncing off the buildings

Fort Knox
08-13-2013, 07:10 PM
Well... no.

I'm not sure how old you are, but even live pop/rock music back then didn't have the deep bass we hear today. It was probably due to the fact that they had no way to reproduce it. Even with mutual coupling the stacks of LE15As that the Dead used is nothing compared to the bottom end of today's massive systems.


Widget

Problem w the Deads speaker system ...it was in disarray...

hjames
08-14-2013, 02:37 AM
Problem w the Deads speaker system ...it was in disarray...

Did you ever HEAR the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound system?
They had it when I heard them at RFK stadium with the Allman Brothers in 1972
disarray isn't the word I'd use - - the sound was amazing!

And yes, it was logistically insane to transport, no doubt!

But they didn't do the low low bass some music contains these days ...

But sorry, this is a way from the "sub for DD66000" discussion ...

Fort Knox
08-14-2013, 04:13 AM
Well... no.

I'm not sure how old you are, but even live pop/rock music back then didn't have the deep bass we hear today. It was probably due to the fact that they had no way to reproduce it. Even with mutual coupling the stacks of LE15As that the Dead used is nothing compared to the bottom end of today's massive systems.


Widget

I ck'd..and ACDC uses 72 EAW SB1000's in a typ sub array
but like the A7 the EAW is not designed for sub sonic bass
as it eats pwr..but granted with that much efficiency the lowest
instrument notes will be heard...good.....
as for home stereo 20hz is cool:)

Fort Knox
08-14-2013, 04:55 AM
Did you ever HEAR the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound system?
They had it when I heard them at RFK stadium with the Allman Brothers in 1972
disarray isn't the word I'd use - - the sound was amazing!

And yes, it was logistically insane to transport, no doubt!

But they didn't do the low low bass some music contains these days ...

But sorry, this is a way from the "sub for DD66000" discussion ...
Grateful Dead is Cool...Sorry
But I was refering to Array in the literal sense.....
speakers with a common zenth pt.:)

Allanvh5150
08-15-2013, 02:00 AM
There should have been plenty of low end content in older music as music in the key of E would usually have a low E bass note quite often. 41Hz roughly. The 5 string bass, rock or orchestral, will go to B in standard tuning, 31hz ish. Depends on how and where it was recorded I guess. I usually run subs on my system as it adds quite a lot extra.

Allan.

4313B
08-15-2013, 02:20 AM
There should have been plenty of low end content in older musicThere was. The JBL's that mattered were solid to 30 Hz and the 4350 was solid to 25 Hz. They were built that way because there was content there. And a high pass filter at 20, 25 or 30 Hz was recommended to attenuate all the garbage below (primarily TT generated).

Fort Knox
08-15-2013, 05:03 AM
I ran A Alesis DEQ230 in my sub amp leg... and I recommend it..
I don't recommend digital EQ's for the mains..(as they sound harsh( to me))....but @20hz the digital EQ
fits in more accuratly agianst a .. 40hz + analog EQ:)

4313B
08-15-2013, 07:42 AM
I don't recommend digital EQ's for the mains..(as they sound harsh( to me))Well someone needs to fix that then because it is the future.

Fort Knox
09-05-2013, 03:53 PM
Well someone needs to fix that then because it is the future.

the future IS here...for bass
this digital sub sounds like a Fender Dual Showman... in the room:blink:
(it actually adds to the transparency (even loud))

jbl
09-06-2013, 09:36 PM
Hi 4313B,

I absolutely agree with You that JBL has to improve its customer relationship and to allow them, even the others too, the availability of the new technology 1501AL series drivers. May be on the existing one ( in DD66000) some kind od "upgrade" can be done by exchanging cone suspensions, and adding some kind of inner mass ring in order to reduce drivers Fs, but I wonder what would happen with Xmax, and the THD after such "upgrade". Generally speaking I think that it would be difficult to make driver tha would have Fs around 20Hz (or less), 93 dB/1W/1m sensitivity, and would have low THD up to 1kHz, so at the end 4-way system seems to me more realistic....

Regards
Ivica
Makes sense but I'm afraid we're 20 - 30 years too late. JBL and their competition is not what it was then. There really is no DIY market anymore or at least JBL refuses to acknowledge it. JBL would rather sell you a new $60,000 system. There is a very good YouTube video of the JBL Factory ca. 1977 that no longer exists. Don't be surprised when they discontinue most if not all recone kits in the near future as well.

DynaMax
09-26-2014, 07:14 AM
Well.. I share thread-starter Brians disappointment about the low end reproduction from the DD66000 with "modern" music, but first let me introduce my self:

I use to be distributing JBL K2, Everest and Synthesis in Denmark* (* 5.5 mill. people, Capitol city = Copenhagen - Northern Scandinavia) in the years 2006-2009, supported by Luc Guillaume, Harman Europe - Paris head Office, France.

Thread starter Brian actually purchased his DD66000 from me..

I have sold plenty of the K2 9800SE, 3 x Synthesis theaters price range +150.000 US$, and few pairs of the DD66000 during my period as distributor. Fine figures according to the population of our country, especially since nobody did any efforts to sell the high-end stuff in the years before my entrance.

But in 2009 Harman closed the Paris office, and without any logic reason my business agreement with Paris was wiped away by a now "former*" Harman Europe/London sales boss "Andy Baker" (*who later was executed from the Harman company - in VERY bad standing..), and my entire business was handed over to the danish Mark Levinson and Lexicon distributors (www.steensen.dk and www.htp.dk)...

This was a really bad act against me, a steal, and Mr. Baker are in my opinion a simple criminal..

This doesn't change my passion for the JBL products, the JBL brand etc., but this explains my status of today; as I am "reduced" to a danish JBL Everst + K2 retailer (www.dynamax.dk).

I in person are a great fan of JBL, a great admire of Greg Timbers and his skills. The big 4300 series are THE REAL JBL from where I am coming, and second to this the MK1 (walnut) 250Ti was THE reference in home audio according to me if I was asked in the the eighties..

My complaints regarding DD66000: In my showroom; very large room aprox. 150 m2, almost 4 meter average ceiling height, few walls, many windows = no really low-end room gain), I have more low end output from a pair of 250Ti or Array 1400 than from my DD66000.

But high-freq is for sure far better from DD66000 than from the others mentioned.

What I want: I want the best of both worlds, the lovely bass from the 250ti (+ a little extra - call me bass a' hollic..:- ) + the upper freq. + dynamics from the DD66000

What to do..?

Please note: This is about personal non satisfaction from the poor low-freq. output, but also about business related frustrations: I have sold 3 pairs of DD66000 … BUT: During the years I HAVE HAD SEVERAL POTENTIAL DD66000 buyers - walking out of my door simply because they were disappointed.. They expected more bass from the dual 15" pr. speaker.. Some of them are currently owning 250ti and 4435, and they could tell by a short listening that the DD66000 sound is more bright/thin that from the JBL's in their current systems. Huh? .. what to do??

What I did: First I tried adding the Array 1500 - but it's too slow when asked to play above 30-40hz, and it doesn't blend with the DD66000 at all in standard configuration when running the DD66000 passive..

Then by adding bass via Synthesis 18" S1S-EX + digital electronics, but I feel the digital synthesis blurs the high-freq.. worse: The Syntehsis processor+SDEC costs some insane 30-40.000US$ incl. 25% danish sales tax….and my need are 2 channel - not multichannel!

Also I was not happy with the S1S-EX 18" subwoofers since they have to much Eq. via the very long vents..

Then I tried with some very expensive digital crossover and equalizer from www.accuphase.com .. dedicated 2-channel, still getting blurred the high-freq...

Finally I decided going all the old-school analog "B-460 way" by building some very large enclosures (dual 18" pr. channel), purchasing some low Fs + light mms woofers from ElectroVoice (EVX180B) - much similar to the 2242H (2242H goes deeper and handles more power but the EVX-180B blends better in the 60Hz area.. ), then adding electronic crossover + eq. (boost) of the low freq.!

Now it works!

Further: I have been designing an electronic crossover 24dB/oct., specifically for the DD66000 vs. my subwoofers named "Everest EX" (EX for extension), as my need is rather an bass extension than a true subwoofer. In order to upgrade my DD66000 to the closest possible 67000 sound (I have auditioned the 67000 in Hong Kong), I am now crossing over the DD66000 by 24/24 dB/Oct. rather than the factory made 12/18dB. Also I moved crossing over point from 750 to 800hz, adding an 1 or 2 dB option (pass through are possible) boost at 700-800Hz in order to compensate for the AL1501 high-freq. roll-off.

On top of that I have a 4-5kHz 1+2 dB (pass through are possible) notch filter build in, a 20kHz boost option.

With the above adjustments I can tailer the sound the way I wanted it, and also by going active the Everest performance are increased*. * Note; my home designed analog crossover are fully discrete design, no IC's no OP-amps, no volume controls in the mid-bass and high-freq. signal path.

But of highest importance:

1: My Extension enclosures are designed to fold around the Everest in order not to become 30-40 inches deep like some dual 18" PA-enclosures at 500 liters, and they are designed with same front baffle angle and acoustic phase in between the EX + Everest drivers.! (Natures low of physics..)

2: By nature the EVX180B woofers are rolling of at 45Hz similar to the AL1501 - despite enclosure volume are 500 liters.., but with 2 x 18" pr. channel I have enough surface and "engine" power to add a gentle boost. Thats made by a variable (3, 6, 9 dB) gain at 28hz similar to the drivers Fs. To fine tune I have 0 to +6dB gain (volume) obtained by the gain diff. from single to balanced (my filters are balanced design). Finally I decided 2 crossover points 45 and 60 Hz in order to meet the variation in music material this flexibility are of highest importance. READ: Some recordings must be added bass from 60Hz and down, others are getting to blurred by a 60hz bump, and needs the lower crossing over point (45hz).

What I got:

"EAR"-Flat system response to almost 25Hz, instead of the DD66000 factory dialed-in 45Hz roll-off, and the possibility to add or lower the low-bass according to taste and music.. A cleaner and faster upper freq. from the 15" were it is crossed over to the 4" Be. = increased "body" in very upper bass/very low midrange. So far so good - but I am not satisfied with the DD66000 mid as I have more male voice body on the 250ti? - any suggestions???

Despite the missing male voice body - this is all together (mildly explained), extending the overall experience from my "modified" Everest system into a level that exceeds the experience from the factory DD66000 speakers by a far margin.!

Reason: This is not only about bass you can hear, but also bass you can fell (30-45hz). More impact to the experience! And especially the extra "black" background thats added behind the entire frequency range from the very lowest hz by boosting via my Extension, is elevating the entire listening experience. Once you have auditioned my system, you will miss something from your "standard" DD66000! Big words, but you are welcome for a cup of coffee and try it out :)

Best thing: It's all made by "common sence", fully analog, no digitally hocus-pocus, no room correction costing XX thousands of dollars. Easy to set-up and easy to dial in - don't need to pay a "sound-enginer" a fortune to get the sound coming through.. Thats what regular 2 channel music lovers but no-billionaire-people like thread starter "Brian" they want.!

Important note: This project of mine is still at prototype level! Several other woofers than the EVX-180B are tried. The EVX are doing fine as the 2242H did, but they are not perfect! Especially my focus has been on neodymium models of different brands, but I found all the neo-stuff hard to play "low" but very good at loud.. I am testing new 18" drivers in the near future, and for sure I will report here whats going to be best choice.

Also the home made electronics (dual mono 3 ways crossovers + EQ) are at "proto-type" level, simply because I don't have the money needed to make a final development (including high-end finish at eclosures+CE approval testings at the electronics etc.).

A few pictures should have been uploaded below - but for reasons I don't know I didn't get permission??

Look here for pictures: http://dynamax.dk/everest-ex/

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax

Doc Mark
09-26-2014, 09:10 AM
Greetings, Henrik,

Many thanks for that illuminating post, and for detailing your experiences on this topic!! Well written, and very informative, Sir. The DD66,000 is way out of my league, but I know that others who either have them, or plan to acquire them, will find your comments and solutions to be very helpful. Thank you for sharing this with us all, and well done on your testing and solutions. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

BMWCCA
09-26-2014, 04:37 PM
Gee, I was lusting after the DD6600/6700 but now . . . I guess I can die happy with my 4345 and nearly-new-in-box 250Ti. :bouncy:


Well.. I share thread-starter Brians disappointment about the low end reproduction from the DD66000 with "modern" music, but first let me introduce my self . . .
I in person are a great fan of JBL, a great admire of Greg Timbers and his skills. The big 4300 series are THE REAL JBL from where I am coming, and second to this the MK1 (walnut) 250Ti was THE reference in home audio according to me if I was asked in the the eighties..

My complaints regarding DD66000: In my showroom; very large room aprox. 150 m2, almost 4 meter average ceiling height, few walls, many windows = no really low-end room gain), I have more low end output from a pair of 250Ti or Array 1400 than from my DD66000 . . .

What I want: I want the best of both worlds, the lovely bass from the 250ti (+ a little extra - call me bass a' hollic..:- ) + the upper freq. + dynamics from the DD66000

. . . I HAVE HAD SEVERAL POTENTIAL DD66000 buyers - walking out of my door simply because they were disappointed.. They expected more bass from the dual 15" pr. speaker.. Some of them are currently owning 250ti and 4435, and they could tell by a short listening that the DD66000 sound is more bright/thin that from the JBL's in their current systems. Huh? .. what to do??

BMWCCA
09-26-2014, 07:19 PM
Did I ever mention the M2?

Oh yeah, the new-kid on the JBL block . . . and the future of speakers. Now I can continue to aspire!

Is Don still enjoying his? Probably too much so to take time to write! That would be good news. :applaud:

Mr. Widget
09-26-2014, 07:33 PM
Gee, I was lusting after the DD6600/6700 but now . . . I guess I can die happy with my 4345 and nearly-new-in-box 250Ti. :bouncy:Hmm... many people are happy with their Bose tabletop Wave radios too. ;)

I found the review above interesting and I can understand where it comes from, however my experience has led me to a different conclusion. I am using a new Revel B112 to augment the very bottom of my DD66000s.

I absolutely agree with 4313B's M2 comment. The very best deep bass I ever heard at home was from the dual Project May 1500Als and Deqx DSP.


Widget

DynaMax
09-27-2014, 10:38 AM
Dear Mr. BMWCCA

Glad to hear you own the 4345 and the 250Ti, that will definitely make this conversation easier.

As the passionated JBL fan I am, I played several JBL models for years; 250Ti, 250Ti + B460, L-300, 4430, 4343, 4345, K2 9800, K2 9800SE - a friend got 4350 which I am very familiar with. I was born in 1966 and are simply too young to know about the older JBL.

The latest of the former models in my house before DD66000 arrival was 250Ti (second hand trade-in), besides my personal 9800SE + 4345.

I loved the 4345 ESPECIALLY for their way of reproducing vinyl playback, which they in some matters did better than my DD66000. On the opposite i prefer the DD66000 for digital playback over the 4345. I had the 4345 for 5 years and my K2 9800SE for 5 years.

Regarding bass output from 250Ti vs. DD66000:

The 250Ti was made in the early eighties - at the same time were digital audio (cd) was introduced, and when many recording studios got access to digital effects. Synthesizers bass effects was brought into popular music. In europe we loved listening to "ear candy" from Dire Straits, Level 42, Depeche Mode, Frankie Goes To Hollywood and psychedelic soft rock from Pink Floyd/Roger Waters. Much of this music content low bass effects (30-40Hz) - as it is the artist intension to ad drama to his "picture of music" by painting with his 30-40hz brush..

The 250Ti rendering of the artist "music picture" in the low bass region was reference class to me back then, the 250Ti was the speaker other speakers was judged against. So with the DD66000. Even in a regular sized listening room the 250Ti has more "impact" at the 30-40hz than the DD66000 when measured by ears. Now try measure by a computer; spl from DD66000 in 30-40Hz are the same, or perhaps higher. Even output to 20Hz are to be measured from the DD66000 - whats going on?

Well, my guess are the high-freq from DD66000 are louder than the rest, opposite from the 250Ti.

Invitation regarding to your post at this thread:

If you really ever consider to purchase DD66000 or DD67000 - an 60K$ investment i guess ( I don't know DD67000 retail in the US - can anybody tell me?), do your self a favor; spend 1.000 Us$ in an air plane ticket US-Copenhagen-return, I will pay for your overnight stay, and come and listen to my DD66000 with and with out my dual 18" EXtensions.

Then go back to this forum and tell everybody what you just discovered.

I am VERY happy with my DD66000 - but only by adding my dual 18" bass EXtensions, I get the full potential from my DD66000.!

Reason;

1: This is not ONLY a matter of extra bass, but an upgrade of the entire soundstage when extra bass are added!
2: Also that you got the information in the music that the artist wan't you to hear AND FEEL.
3: Last thing are important - as much can be heard from the DD66000 but not felt!

M2 is another issue; I was to a M2 demo by the JBL Pro distributor this summer; impressive YES FOR SURE - but my own system outcompetes the M2 in some aspects and the M2 outcompetes the DD66000 in other aspects. I think it is wrong to compare those two speaker designs at all, taken into consideration the M2 is controlled by the BBX/Crown electronics opposite the passive DD66000.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax

ivica
09-27-2014, 11:17 AM
Did I ever mention the M2?

Set up the DD65000, DD66000 or DD67000 in a similar fashion and there will be no shortage of bottom end.

It is all in the balance between the midrange and the bass.

The Everest systems have serious potential.
Hi 4313B,

May be I do not uderstand your words, but I can imagine that almost Any decent speaker can be equalised to become respectable FR response, especially if power DSP support and multi channal amplifiers are applied. The problem can be the sound character of such system.

From my point of view, I woud not expect from multy-thousands U$D spekers would need additional sub-bass drivers, or enhanced DSP in order to produce acceptable sound reproduction.

I wonder what can be get from say old 43xx family speakers if DSP ,with FIR filters and time delay compensation including 4 chan.amlifiers being applied.

regards
ivica

Mr. Widget
09-27-2014, 12:24 PM
...but I can imagine that almost Any decent speaker can be equalised to become respectable FR response, especially if power DSP support and multi channal amplifiers are applied. The problem can be the sound character of such system. From reading your posts I know you have a lot of theoretical experience, but I can tell you from "real world" experience that speaker systems have sonic signatures and characteristics that can not be equalized away... even with sophisticated DSPs that can also control the time domain in multiway applications. That being said you will never confuse an M2 and 4350 even if they have identical on axis FR responses.

Now regarding 4313B's comment, I believe what he was suggesting was that the pair of 1501AL woofers in the DD66000 can beautifully reach deep down into the subterranean regions, but it does require DSP to make that happen.


Widget

Mr. Widget
09-27-2014, 12:29 PM
From my point of view, I woud not expect from multy-thousands U$D spekers would need additional sub-bass drivers, or enhanced DSP in order to produce acceptable sound reproduction.And a lot of other people have said this... as you know every speaker system is built on choosing compromises and the design team of this speaker chose to limit the deepest bass to accomplish what they thought were the best set of compromises.


Widget

DynaMax
09-27-2014, 02:54 PM
Dear 4313B

Spot on! Thank you - I agree 100%.

And to all you other readers:

My home Everest EX system (bass boost filter, Cross-over, dual 18"/channel) are the "salt and pepper" the Everest definitely needs when played in larger rooms than average japanese apartments..

The problem are - and the reason for me to jump on this thread - the company behind the Everest rather than the Everest itself or the brilliant people who developed it.

They simply left project Everest half done when leaving the clients who happens to live in large houses with out the opportunity to buy a matching LF system for the Everest.

Everest are - sorry, don't get me wrong - some kind of P.A. system. Consider the Everest as a "MF+HF" speaker, suitable for small and medium sized rooms, and tell me where to find the matching LF system for those of us who want's to play the system under the conditions of a very large room/free air?

Back to salt and pepper vs. 60.000 dollar speakers; Imagine yourself seated on a five star restaurant, your 200$ dinner just arrived, the taste is not what you expected, you ask the waiter for salt and pepper, and he tells you "sorry sir, we don't offer that".

Got my point?

Thats why I made the Everest EX system. I was forced to so by Harman management who decided it must be this way. And I did what I did in love to my speakers.. I guess many others had trashed the speakers rather than starting developing a DESIGN matching LF system as I did. Think about the many potential Everest buyers who walked out of my door because they were disappointed about the poor LF, and multiply these figures with the amount of Everest dealers around the globe? Got my point? They had for sure (some of them) bought the system if a matching LF system were availible.

In the eighties Harman management decided the JBL B-360 and the B-460 option for those who suffers from bass. In 2009 Harman management decided to flush out many passionated employees and business partners. One of them was me. Are the new people - replacing me and the many others who were wiped out - doing better? I guess not.

For 7 years we have had access to the brilliant Everest system, but no access to adjust with a little salt and pepper in shape of a top-shelf design matching LF system for the Everest. The Array 1500 and the S1S-EX simply don't match the Everest, the first in performance the last in appearance..

Know you all know why I decided to enter this thread the way I did, and everybody are welcome to try me out by stepping by and listen to my Everest with and without "salt and pepper".

A little teaser; during this spring I had a visit from a Harman distributor (I won't mention his name with out his permission), who just arrived from C.E.S + a visit at Northridge. At Northridge he auditioned the Everest DD67000 + ML53 etc., costing a billion dollars, with Greg Timbers i Think,..

I asked if he wanted to listen to my system, and this was before I got the special build electronics I got today, but just with an OEM crossover+bass eq).

"shortly" he answered, as he was on his way out of my door behind his schedule; I played a Patrcia Barber track and some Pink Floyd live concert "shine on you crazy diamond" intro with Synt. bass effect. Both tracks with and without my Extensions. After a few minutes listen to each track he locked at me searching for words, dwelled a minute for choosing his words, gave up, and said; "this is sounding better than what I heard in the JBL showroom at Northridge ..".

Somebody should tell the Harman management to listen a little more to the crowd before kicking peoples ass out of the company, spend a little more time listening to music on the products from where they get their paychecks, instead of focus on figures from low-end-gear mass production.

I don't think the VW makes money at their Bugatti cars at all, but they get tons of attention, and thousands of people buying their Audi cars as they can't effort the Bugatti. But this doesn't mean their are lots of limitations for the Bugatti buyers. There are no limits. And so with the Everest buyers. No limits wanted. Heavy bass EXtensions wanted!

Have a good weekend.

Henrik, DynaMax

BMWCCA
09-27-2014, 05:08 PM
If you really ever consider to purchase DD66000 or DD67000 - an 60K$ investment i guess ( I don't know DD67000 retail in the US - can anybody tell me?), do your self a favor; spend 1.000 Us$ in an air plane ticket US-Copenhagen-return, I will pay for your overnight stay, and come and listen to my DD66000 with and with out my dual 18" EXtensions.

M2 is another issue; I was to a M2 demo by the JBL Pro distributor this summer; impressive YES FOR SURE - but my own system outcompetes the M2 in some aspects and the M2 outcompetes the DD66000 in other aspects. I think it is wrong to compare those two speaker designs at all, taken into consideration the M2 is controlled by the BBX/Crown electronics opposite the passive DD66000.
Thanks for the offer! I doubt I'll ever be in a position to take you up on it but I appreciate it and, if I ever find myself in Copenhagen, I will certainly look you up!

Slightly used DD6600 seem to be available here currently for asking prices under $20,000. At this rate I should be able to pick some up for about what I paid for my 4345s in about five-years! ;)

I have nothing against the M2 creating musical magic through active electronics and Crown amps. I use active crossovers, EQ, and Crown amps with my 4345 now. Pretty much just after the best reproduction of music, whatever it takes.
:applaud:

jblnut
09-28-2014, 06:46 AM
I would love to be able to read a thread a few days after it has been posted, but 4313B insists on deleting his posts the same day he creates them. WTF is UP with that ? Enough already - post or don't but leave your comments around so that others can follow a thread in some kind of logical fashion !


jblnut

ivica
09-28-2014, 07:27 AM
[RIGHT]And a lot of other people have said this... as you know every speaker system is built on choosing compromises and the design team of this speaker chose to limit the deepest bass to accomplish what they thought were the best set of compromises.


Widget

Hi Mr.Widget,

As an engineer myself, I understand the meaning of the words"engineering compromises", but here talking about DD66k speakers, I wonder why Mr.GT. had not used one driver like 2269 instead of the one 1501, as a "helper bass driver", and so the lower LF reproduction would be solved. May be some of the forum member has such opportunity to ask Mr.GT, personally. From his answer I believe we can learn something new.

regards
ivica

ivica
09-28-2014, 07:36 AM
......

Now regarding 4313B's comment, I believe what he was suggesting was that the pair of 1501AL woofers in the DD66000 can beautifully reach deep down into the subterranean regions, but it does require DSP to make that happen.


Widget
Hi Mr.Widget,

Yes, I have understood our forum member '4313B' that with a kind of EQ, DD66k can be improved, almost the same he has suggested for M2 by "shelfing" midbass and VF sction.

regards
ivica

4313B
09-28-2014, 09:11 AM
I would love to be able to read a thread a few days after it has been posted, but 4313B insists on deleting his posts the same day he creates them. WTF is UP with that ? Enough already - post or don't but leave your comments around so that others can follow a thread in some kind of logical fashion !I realized that my comments added nothing of value to the thread so why mess up a perfectly good thread with them. I don't see where it is a problem.
Yes, I have understood our forum member '4313B' that with a kind of EQ, DD66k can be improved, almost the same he has suggested for M2 by "shelfing" midbass and VF sction.
I did not suggest anything for the M2. My latest comments were misunderstood and have been removed so as not to confuse anyone.

ivica
09-29-2014, 01:20 AM
I realized that my comments added nothing of value to the thread so why mess up a perfectly good thread with them. I don't see where it is a problem.I did not suggest anything for the M2. My latest comments were misunderstood and have been removed so as not to confuse anyone.

Hi 4313B,

I am sorry if I do not understand yours words correctly:

"unfortunately it seems to ME that OUR forum moderator totally changed my post

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34672-Sub-for-Everest-DD66000&p=366707&viewfull=1#post366707

where I reply to 4313B post BEFORE he had decided to remove his post , I can not reference what was the point ... But fortunately some older post can give some "ideas"


but in Your post:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor&p=362755&viewfull=1#post362755

"...Someone posted an article awhile back with respect to midrange balance in a loudspeaker and how it can make or break a system. All I have to say in response to that is, start with something like the -8 dB HP shelf filter used on the 2216Nd in the M2. JBL starts it around 135 Hz. I've done similar with the K2 and E2 (after removing the stock passive networks) and the results are fantastic. The bass and midrange clean right up. The bottom end, even with the "bass shy" K2, gets real serious without being overblown. The amount of cut will vary with each system as will the frequency, slope and Q, put the principle is the same..."

I have understood that some kind of EQ ( about as said: -8dB HP shelf) is applied in M2 in the mid-bass region in order to suppress too strong 2216ND response in that region. So I understand that JBL prefer to suppers mid-bas not to 'enhance' bass "shortage" in lower bass region.
So a kind of enhancing some thing can be realize by directly enhancing the desired region , or by suppressing the rest, or part of the rest.

regards
ivica

ivica
09-29-2014, 01:50 AM
I realized that my comments added nothing of value to the thread so why mess up a perfectly good thread with them. I don't see where it is a problem.

I did not suggest anything for the M2. My latest comments were misunderstood and have been removed so as not to confuse anyone.

Hi 4313B,

I can understand that from time to time our words can be misinterpreted or misunderstood from the most, or just a few of the readers (or listeners) but I think it would be more correct to remain the post, for the others who were referencing or had replied on such post. Now, we have a situation that someone is "talking about" some kid of ghost.

From the most of your post I have learned much, from your knowledge and large amount of experience, and I think that all of your post are valuable to remain unchanged on the AH-forum.

Regards
ivica

DynaMax
09-29-2014, 04:50 AM
Hi 4313B

I really agree with Mr. IVICA. By removing your post you left my replies were I comments on your post, making no sense.

Especially your post explaining your thoughts about decisions made from the design-team behind E2, by referring to adding "salt and pepper" was a very nice post. I also learned a lot from reading your many post during time, thank you so much, and please continue to share your valuable knowledge.

But when that is said, I think it is absolutely not fair to this tread, that you deleted vital parts of the discussion.

Bring the post back in if you wanna keep faith amongst readers.

Hi Widget and Hi IVICA

This is not about adding an extension to the frequency range of the Everest II, for sure thats possible. I tried it all ready. More about this - below..*

I don't question the limitations of the choosen Everest design from a technical view of point, but from a sales person view of point which 4313B actually was very nice to comments in his post. The post he later removed, and which I want him to bring back in the discussion.

* As mentioned from Widget an Eq. addition to the E2 low-end will compensate for the early roll-off, but according to my experiences that won't do it all the way.

Reason: Human hearing are non linear - most sensible at the midrange, less sensible at the very low and very high frequencies.

Fact: human ears need 20Hz reproduced at 90dB before you actually can start hearing the 20Hz, opposite 1000Hz at 90dB. 1000 Hz at 90dB is pretty hard to the ears long term listening.

This means (in my system =very large room = minimum LF room gain at listening position), that I need + 15-18db at 20-25Hz with music content from great church organs before I feel the experience are "authentic". The same with an live track recording of an Pink Floyd open air concert, listening to the synth.bass effects at 30-50Hz. 30-50Hz needs around a 12dB boost before it starts sounding "authentic". Actually the wanted output is almost impossible to hear from the E2 (but can be measured 15-20dB below midrange), and it will need tremendous amount of Eq. before it "feels" right.

Conclusion: Off course you can add this extension to the E2 by DSP Eq., it works fine on the older soft-rock albums like Pink Ployd, but then shift record and play a track with modern electronic music with tons of LF (Try the swiss due "Yello" or some US made Hip-Hop..), and then try turn up loud… Result: you will see AL1501 woofers pumping more than they like ..

It's a simple matter of surface area.

The E2 are an brilliant performer the way it is -when suported by some somekind of LF system.!

It's is very funny to read from this "Lansing Heritage" that allmost all E2 owners/writers (Mr. Widget and Greg Timbers included) do have and LF system in use with their E2.. like the Array 1500 or the Revel B120.. And why?

But for those of us who lives in large houses and prefer to listen to the Church organ or the electric rock the way it is to experience this live, a serious LF system similar to a dual 18" P.A. system is needed. Do the math your selves: If 1000Hz are reproduced at 90dB and you want "ear flat" experience between 30-40Hz, you need a boost at around 9-12dB from "measuring flat" response. Then imagine turning up louder: This won't happen without a lot of distortion if a single Revel B120 are the source.

And if you wan't the same effortless sound as from the rest of the E2, LOTS of surface are preferred rather than lots of cone movement .. Thats why dual 18" pr. channel are the only serious solution to supplement the E2.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax

Mr. Widget
09-29-2014, 08:38 AM
* As mentioned from Widget an Eq. addition to the E2 low-end will compensate for the early roll-off, but according to my experiences that won't do it all the way.

Reason: Human hearing are non linear - most sensible at the midrange, less sensible at the very low and very high frequencies.

Fact: human ears need 20Hz reproduced at 90dB before you actually can start hearing the 20Hz, opposite 1000Hz at 90dB. 1000 Hz at 90dB is pretty hard to the ears long term listening.

This means (in my system =very large room = minimum LF room gain at listening position), that I need + 15-18db at 20-25Hz with music content from great church organs before I feel the experience are "authentic". The same with an live track recording of an Pink Floyd open air concert, listening to the synth.bass effects at 30-50Hz. 30-50Hz needs around a 12dB boost before it starts sounding "authentic". Actually the wanted output is almost impossible to hear from the E2 (but can be measured 15-20dB below midrange), and it will need tremendous amount of Eq. before it "feels" right.
I think I know where you are coming from. In my previous home I had zero LF gain and essentially measured an anechoic chamber's LF response in my various systems. This was great in that the low end tended to be quite "tight", but it required significant augmentation if deep bass was desired. I believe this must be your situation.

In my current far more typical listening room, there is enough bass gain that I have the DD66000s strapping bars set to the least amount of LF as possible and have included a single Revel B112 to add back the bits below about 30-35 Hz... as you suggest, for music like Pink Floyd there is actually very little VLF info, it is really only on contemporary music that the sub comes on at all.

Once again, I think listening preference and listening rooms account for much of our different experiences here. I have little need to play over 95-99 dB... and in my room there is a bump in the 80Hz-100Hz region that I'd love to tame with DSP and am waiting for technology to allow me to do that without sacrificing other aspects of the system. Is the M2 there now? I'm not sure. If I had access to a DSP that I liked, I would pull down the bump that my room creates and augment the VLF that I am confident the DD66000s can reproduce with more accuracy than by adding any additional drivers... at the levels I require of the system.


Widget

DynaMax
09-29-2014, 11:31 AM
Mr. Widget wrote:

I think I know where you are coming from. In my previous home I had zero LF gain and essentially measured an anechoic chamber's LF response in my various systems. This was great in that the low end tended to be quite "tight", but it required significant augmentation if deep bass was desired. I believe this must be your situation.

Thats exactly my listening conditions, as well as I guess that a small percentage of Everest owners world wide are facing the same challenges as me, if they - like me - are fortunate to live in large rooms with their audio toys. Listening to my Everest during such "anechoic" circumstances are pretty much similar to getting a cold shower if you expected hot water from the tap..

I want to appologize for the way I expressed my self at my first reply to this thread if somebody feel I was too brutal against Harman management. But try understand how disappointing it is to get disappointed when unpacking your all-time 60.000 $ dream speaker, then finding out they cannot reproduce basic LF fundamentals despite huge LF surface, especially if you are able to switch back to the old dusty 250Ti, and then you get what you missed from the billion dollars dreams speakers..

The reason to my criticism of the Harman managing department (who I guess are telling the design team what to build - and not to build), are that they DID NOT decide doing a dedicated LF system for the Everest. I repeat my self; LF solutions was offered 30 years ago by the B-380/B-460 in combination with the necessary BX-63 cross-over/boost filter. If G.T managed to design that system back then, I think he will be even better in designing a similar system with todays technologies. It's all about getting the green light from management..

My Everest EX prototype system (see picture below), are actually inspired from the B-460/BX-63 as I was happy to own this system quite some times ago.

And the reason to go that way are the advantanges by going fully analog (= no time delay vs. digital sub control), and the controller can easily be plugged in from a pre-amps pre-out = no DSP interrouption of the sensible HF signal.

Last thing:

When my Everest are released from the heavy job with LF reproduction by getting electronic crossed over at 45-60Hz (4' order), one actually can hear the benefits in the upper bass/low mid freq. where the Al1501 driver meets the 4". And the Al1501 blends even better with the 4" Be when I am doing electronic crosing over from bass to horn driver.

Se picture of my system below.

All in all I have elevated the full range listening experiences by a far margin from basic "factory" by adding my LF system + active drive of the E2

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax

speakerdave
09-29-2014, 12:45 PM
Nice room!

DynaMax
09-29-2014, 01:00 PM
A few more pictures here:

Comments to the pictures:

First picture: Front baffel in the shown prototypes are removable for easy swapping drivers.

Last picture: In left side you see the top-to-bottom slot-vent, decided because I don't like the "OOmpphy" sound from long vents similar to the Synthesis-S1S-EX (2242H) that was tried copied. Because there are no very long vent similar to the S1S-EX, this system (with Electro Voice EVX-180B woofers) rolls off pretty high despite enclosure volume at 480 liters, but can easily be tuned very low by electronic boost. When boosting lots of air are moved via the slot-vent below the EVX-180B drivers Fs (28Hz), but creates no harm to the sound. Slot-vent in combination with electronic boost are choosen over traditional (passive) tuning by long vents, to avoid the OOmppy sound/port noise typical for long vents.

I choosed the EVX-180B over the 2242H because the EVX-180X offers a Fs at 28Hz and the 2242H are 35Fs.

I know there are better woofers out there than the EVX-180B, but developing this system has been a pretty expensive issue, and new drivers are about to be tested when economy are back on track.

(I should love trying 4 x the 2269H, but the "spare part" price I was asked to pay from the local JBL Pro distributor was far from attractive taken into consideration that my risk are ending up with no use of the drivers*). *MMS at 2269H are almost double the weight/mms of the EVX-180B, and that scares me a little since I am going for best possible acceleration factor. My fear are the 2269H need to be played loud before sounding sweet because of the very strong neo motor system. And my goal with this system are not "long-term P.A. capable sound pressure", but HiFi = the possibility of listening at low levels are of high importance.

My electronics (housed in the raw mdf box), has the following features:

Fully discrete design (No IC's, No OP-amps), Class-A operation.
Selectable crossover 45/60 Hz. (24/dB) and off-course a pass through option. (Two different frequencies in order to meet variation in music).
28Hz Q0.7 Eq./boost by selectable gain: +3,+6,+9dB to compensate for driver roll-off, and off-course a pass through option (0dB gain).
15Hz subsonic filter in order to protect drivers.
LF-variable output (0 to +6dB).
24dB/24dB crossover at 800Hz
Selectable 700-800Hz boost (+1,+2dB) to compensate for Al1501 notch in meeting the 4" Be. (but I guess Al1502 would do better..?)
Selectable 4500-5500Hz notch (-1, -2dB) to flatten out a little 5kHz peak I have in my system. (Perhaps a local problem generated by my room.?).
Selectable 20.000Hz boost (+3, +6dB) to compensate for the system roll off above 16Khz. (in order to add more transparency to the very Hf reproduction to the factory design of DD66000)
No Volumen at output for Al1501 and 4" Be. in order to keep cleanest possible signal path.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

wsilva
09-29-2014, 01:20 PM
Sweet! :)

pos
09-29-2014, 01:37 PM
Wow, that is a perfect fit!
How about a pair of cabinets per side, surrounding each speaker? :D

Regarding 18" choices, beside the reference JBL 2245H (still hard to beat IMHO) there is the TAD TL1801 (still in production), and the more modern BMS 18N862 and McCauley 6174 (never heard those ones personally, but the specifications sure look impressive and the reviews are always very positive)

DynaMax
09-29-2014, 02:25 PM
Thank you very much to WSILVA and to POS.

And yes POS - one pr. side at each speaker has been in my mind for 2 years:bouncy:!

Actually drawings for a mk2 EX version are made. A much more advanced design for even better integration with the JBL Everest in order to obtain universal system setup with a free choice of angling the E2 or not. Fully rounded rear as the rear of E2, but because of the almost "round" enclosure the greatest challenge has been to find the production facilities* for round enclosures.

* I have finished a set of computer drawings made specific for production of the mk2 at "Hornslet Cabinets" - the former manufacture of the E2 enclosures, but since "Hornslet Cabinets" closed their doors in december 2013, I have been lost according to progress.

Could you imagine an LF enclosure in exact same finish (veneer + enclosure roundings) as the E2? Wow.. Thoughts like that really keep me awake at night and I guess E2 fans around the world would pee in their pants if such a system was released.

By the way; where are the E2 enclosures getting made today? Perhaps they would like to get an sample order from me?

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

4313B
09-30-2014, 07:16 AM
Well it appears that you were able to make the best out of a less than ideal situation by throwing enough money at it. Congratulations on that. It does appear to be a clever solution.

I'll certainly not bother trying to explain, much less defend, the K2-S9900 or Everest II systems going forward. They obviously just don't cut it in certain environments and you are not the first person to prove that.

I had the opposite problem with the dual woofers. They were way too much in my environment. A single 1501AL-2 does everything I could possibly want it to do. I guess I got really lucky. :)


By the way; where are the E2 enclosures getting made today?The last I heard on the subject - available while supplies last. In other words, none of these systems are still being manufactured?

DynaMax
09-30-2014, 08:14 AM
Hi4313B

Are you really telling me that the DD67000 has been discontinued short after it has been introduced - wow.

Thats really heavy news..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax

rusty jefferson
09-30-2014, 08:22 AM
That seems like a completely appropriate solution in your room, and VERY nicely executed. :)



A room in fact, not unlike the sales brochure. ;)


63281

macaroonie
09-30-2014, 08:39 AM
I prefer Henrik's flooring. :)

speakerdave
09-30-2014, 08:48 AM
. . . .The last I heard on the subject - available while supplies last. In other words, none of these systems are still being manufactured?

Maybe we could put together a consortium to buy the engineering and tooling for certain elements before they get used to seed a coral reef.

Mr. Widget
09-30-2014, 08:50 AM
The last I heard on the subject - available while supplies last. In other words, none of these systems are still being manufactured?My price list doesn't reflect that, so Harman likely has several years worth sitting in their warehouse ready to be populated with drivers as they sell. That seems to be how they operate... and if there was suddenly a significant demand for these speakers more would magically get produced. They are even offering piano black finish on the DD67000s as a special order, so they are certainly still assembling these beasts.

That said, with Harman dumping the last of the DD66000s and the DD67000s not being all that different, the market for these large horn based systems is likely saturated. I don't know what the current tally is, but they have sold many hundreds of pairs of these beasts! Pretty remarkable really. Like the Paragons and Hartsfields before them, these will continue to be cherished and well cared for so they should be with us for many, many years to come.

Now, the DD65000, that is a different story. They were very short lived and have been discontinued.


Widget

pos
09-30-2014, 10:04 AM
Now, the DD65000, that is a different story. They were very short lived and have been discontinued.
So this is the end of the road for the 1501AL-1 as well?
Too bad, that was a very interesting driver...

4313B
09-30-2014, 10:09 AM
I don't know what the current tally is, but they have sold many hundreds of pairs of these beasts! Pretty remarkable really. Like the Paragons and Hartsfields before them, these will continue to be cherished and well cared for so they should be with us for many, many years to come.I would hope that there are a decent number of owners that like them just the way they are.

They are awfully expensive to be a disappointment.

JBL could have offered an alternate package wherein a replacement port system tuning the box 10 Hz lower was available along with a passive network bypass and a file for the Crowns. That's where my money would go.

Of course one could just seal the ports up and apply a Linkwitz transform. :p

I'm waiting for all the whining to start over the M2.
Now, the DD65000, that is a different story. They were very short lived and have been discontinued.Yeah, that was probably a bad move, making a less expensive version of an iconic system.


So this is the end of the road for the 1501AL-1 as well?
Too bad, that was a very interesting driver...It will be interesting to see what Consumer does next. The 2216Nd seems to be a real favorite right now. Too bad it requires neo. I think they are going through the whole "how do we make ferrite better" thing again.

timc
10-01-2014, 04:13 AM
Availability status is probably because the cabinet manufacturer (Hornslet in Denmark) just went bust. Quite an amount of S9900 and E2 cabinets in unifinished condition were sold of at low prices.


-tim

Mr. Widget
10-01-2014, 10:15 AM
I would hope that there are a decent number of owners that like them just the way they are.I am one. :D
It is a fantastic speaker. Is it perfect? No, but then no other speaker is either.

Even though I have a small sub tucked in the corner of the room it is almost never on.

I think this thread like many here shows us once again just why there are so many choices out there. Some people here seem to equate quality with SPL, others with frequency range extension, others with dynamic impact, and others seem to seek other aspects of audio. What I like about the DD66000 is the effortless dynamics that help the music sound "live"... these are not "audiophile" speakers, but they do not offend my personal "audiophile" tendencies. They are extremely accurate, image surprisingly well, have amazing detail resolution, and yet can play as loudly as anyone could ever want. There is a lot to love, but no... they are not perfect. As far as I know, that hasn't been invented yet.:)


Widget

DynaMax
10-13-2014, 04:57 AM
Dear Widget

For sure it is fantastic speakers, and there are many reasons to buy it, but more reasons not to buy it. Tough words indeed, but I am an Everest retailer who suffers from having more potential buyers turning their thumps down instead of buying the speakers..

The reason is simple - it has nothing to do with taste, sound character etc., but the simple fact that the speakers only let about 85% of the music signal getting through..

Look at it like this; a kind of "scientific" consideration:

If you feed a full range (20-20.000Hz) music signal into your audio system - divided into 10 octaves, and then measure by ear, you only get 8,5 octave out of the speakers:

20-40Hz = no signal
40-80Hz = 50% signal
80-160Hz = 100% signal
160-320Hz = 100% signal
320-640Hz = 100% signal
640-1280Hz = 100% signal
2560-5Khz = 100% signal
5-10Khz = 100% signal
10-20Khz = 100% signal

One of the speakers beloved performance skills according to you, are its effortless dynamics - I fully agree, thats why they are in my main show room - but fact are this is only from 60Hz and up..

In order to extend the effortless dynamics full range, a tiny 12" corner placed sub won't match in MY room - lots of surface are needed to reproduce +100dB from 60Hz and down.

Another thing JBL management should consider:

People who buys fast cars are often the same people who goes fast on the high-way, the same with JBL EVEREST; most people who prefer such speakers also prefer listen to loud music.. To experience 30-40Hz at a level that matches the rest of the speakers output, even an EQ of the speakers will NOT do it, simply because you need +6-9dB in 30-50Hz compared to the above freq. range, in order to compensate for the less LF sensitive in human hearing.

Thats why my point are that regular bass extension modules should have been developed for those of us who want's to use the speakers in the "fast lane" :)

This thread was started by a person who are seeking a sub or LF extension for his Everest for the reasons I explain above, I know his reasons because I auditioned his system. He already has tried with dual Array1500 but he was not happy since Array 1500 was to slow. Now he got a DEQX in his system, and still he is not happy - but too much of a gentleman to let you know in this forum:(

My point are there are many similar people out there - they all seems to be happy - but not satisfied, and thats why I am sharing my own challenges - and how to manage: Bass EXtensions rather that subwoofers.

BELOW: Another picture showing my EVEREST EXtensions from listening position :):)

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

63395

ivica
10-13-2014, 07:16 AM
......
It is a fantastic speaker. Is it perfect? No, but then no other speaker is either.
Even though I have a small sub tucked in the corner of the room it is almost never on.

I think this thread like many here shows us once again just why there are so many choices out there. Some people here seem to equate quality with SPL, others with frequency range extension, others with dynamic impact, and others seem to seek other aspects of audio. What I like about the DD66000 is the effortless dynamics that help the music sound "live"... these are not "audiophile" speakers, but they do not offend my personal "audiophile" tendencies. They are extremely accurate, image surprisingly well, have amazing detail resolution, and yet can play as loudly as anyone could ever want. There is a lot to love, but no... they are not perfect. As far as I know, that hasn't been invented yet.
Widget

I can imagine that such high quality speakers can "deliver" a lot of pleasure, but I only wonder why GT ( or marketing dept.) had not put instead of one of two 15" dirvers, that has lower Fs and as 'helper driver' allow better lower bass reproduction. Even though, I prefer 18"+12" combination instead of 2x15".

regards
ivica

Mr. Widget
10-13-2014, 08:31 AM
I can imagine that such high quality speakers can "deliver" a lot of pleasure, but I only wonder why GT ( or marketing dept.) had not put instead of one of two 15" dirvers, that has lower Fs and as 'helper driver' allow better lower bass reproduction. Even though, I prefer 18"+12" combination instead of 2x15".

regards
ivicaThey obviously could have gone that route and chose the route they did... we can speculate until the cows come home if they made the right choice or not.

The speakers are 10 cu ft as they are and I really, really wish they were a bit smaller and didn't weigh so damned much! All this silly talk about subs and how stupid JBL is though is just rediculous. These speakers may not have 20Hz bass, but they sound more like live music than just about anything I've ever heard and I have heard a lot of fine systems.


Widget

Mr. Widget
10-13-2014, 08:37 AM
The reason is simple - it has nothing to do with taste, sound character etc., but the simple fact that the speakers only let about 85% of the music signal getting through..

Look at it like this; a kind of "scientific" consideration:

If you feed a full range (20-20.000Hz) music signal into your audio system - divided into 10 octaves, and then measure by ear, you only get 8,5 octave out of the speakers:

20-40Hz = no signal
40-80Hz = 50% signal
80-160Hz = 100% signal
160-320Hz = 100% signal
320-640Hz = 100% signal
640-1280Hz = 100% signal
2560-5Khz = 100% signal
5-10Khz = 100% signal
10-20Khz = 100% signal

Your metrics are all wrong. 90% of the music lies between 80Hz and 8KHz. ;)

I really don't wish to continue this debate. If the speakers don't satisfy someone, that is fine. Many people are satisfied with Bose... so what? All this tells us is that people's needs, desires and tastes are all over the map.

I have heard plenty of speakers that cost 2X the retail price of the E2... most I didn't care for as much as the E2, but that is just one person's opinion.


Widget

DynaMax
10-13-2014, 02:19 PM
All I am saying is, that nobody has heard the full potential of the E2 speakers before they have auditioned them supported by some kind of LF Extension similar to the system I have developed. Try it out your self instead of go getting dissapointed.

Also remember my entrance to this thread; by introducing my self the way I did, complaining about Harman management...

Why?

As said - a "nice suit" from Harman top office came to me in 2009 when I was local K2, E2 and Synthsis distributor, and told me to double or triple my sales figures (in the middle of a recession) if I wanted to keep my product line…

Thats pretty hard if 3 out of four clients walk away because they miss LF output from a mega system like the E2.

The 4350 did the job, the E2 don't - why is the truth so hard to deal with?

Tread starter asked for a solution, I just delivered the solution - hate me or love me - and if somebody from management are reading this thread, they should now know to think twice about LF if they are planning a 70 year anniversary E3 model..

Thank you so much for letting me taking your time

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

audiomagnate
10-13-2014, 03:00 PM
I think ANY speaker/room benefits from a distributed sub swarm - no matter how low it goes - but that thing just craps all over the looks of the most beautiful speaker on the planet. I'm sure it sounds wonderful, but people who buy Everests care about the look of their room. It's kind of like sticking a giant hood scoop on a classic Maserati. It might improve performance but you you have vandalized a work of art. But if it works for you...great.

SEAWOLF97
10-13-2014, 04:36 PM
but that thing just craps all over the looks of the most beautiful speaker on the planet.

I DON'T agree ....looks to be integrated nicely , the thing I'd do differently ...especially after all the expense and design/construction time ...would be to have a pro veneer them in a matching finish to the E2's. The industrial gray doesn't seem right TO ME. :confused:

DynaMax
10-13-2014, 04:50 PM
Dear AUDIOMAGNATE

You might have missed my explanations regarding the EXtensions at my website: THEY are prototypes… No doubt the design can be made a lot more handsome.

Obviusly the look of a 60.000 dollar pair of speakers counts more for you than the sound - what does it say about you? That you might be very very very rich ;)

But from mine and my clients view of point a powerful full range reproduction is expected when the price tag says 100.000US$/pair..*

* According to the danish JBL K2 + E2 + Mark Levinson + Revel distributor (www.bulowtrading.dk); (http://www.bulowtrading.dk);) recommended retail including 25% danish sales tax at a pair of DD67000 are - FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS: 108.000 US$ at current exchange rate 5,50……..

At that amount of money one might expect not only the best looking speakers, but also the best sounding speakers.

Fair enough you don't like what I did, but I was forced to do so since Harman Corp failed in their efforts..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

DynaMax
10-13-2014, 05:02 PM
Dear SEAWOLF 97

YOU are my man - and you are so much right, thank you. (My EXtensions are about to getting painted black).

Actually I have finished production plans at curved enclosures in matching veneers made in corporation with Hornslet Cabinets - manufacturer of the E2 + K2 9900 enclosures, but unfortunately the company closed their doors at december 2013….*

*In a naive faith to big words from big clients in nice suits, Hornslet Cabinets invested a ton of money in developing the methods, the tools, the engines for curved enclosures, but they didn't get enough of the "promised" orders from their customers, their bills got bigger than their income, end of story..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

AussieSteve
10-14-2014, 12:58 AM
Dear AUDIOMAGNATE

You might have missed my explanations regarding the EXtensions at my website: THEY are prototypes… No doubt the design can be made a lot more handsome.

Obviusly the look of a 60.000 dollar pair of speakers counts more for you than the sound - what does it say about you? That you might be very very very rich ;)

But from mine and my clients view of point a powerful full range reproduction is expected when the price tag says 100.000US$/pair..*

* According to the danish JBL K2 + E2 + Mark Levinson + Revel distributor (www.bulowtrading.dk); (http://www.bulowtrading.dk);) recommended retail including 25% danish sales tax at a pair of DD67000 are - FASTEN YOUR SEAT BELTS: 108.000 US$ at current exchange rate 5,50……..

At that amount of money one might expect not only the best looking speakers, but also the best sounding speakers.

Fair enough you don't like what I did, but I was forced to do so since Harman Corp failed in their efforts..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)



Hi Henrick, I agree with you 100% about greater LF extension for Everest. For JBL to make their top of the line speaker without greater range is hard to understand. I love the Everest, K2 and S4700, however for the Everest, well it is sad. I find some people here do not like criticism of JBL speakers and take it personally, which it is not meant to be. I love the look of the Everest, and wanted some, however I chose Magico instead because of the very reason discussed. The EVEREST should be able to sound perfect for all types of music, and without DSP when used with very high quality amps. JBL has a heritage that is stronger than most other manufacturers around the world, yet it appears as though the bean counters have reduced the company to something it should not be. I hope it returns to the top, and becomes made in the USA again.

cooky1257
10-14-2014, 01:36 AM
So in some situations the DD66000 according to the listener's taste, may need some ELF augmentation via the addition of a sub or 2. Big deal. I must say I agree with previous comment, the sub solution offered is hideous. Clearly in a money no issue situation such as this I'd expect a design solution at least as elegant as the DD66000.
Moreover is it 'needs' 4x sub bass drive units to fill this perceived gap in LF then no solution from JBL could realistically have been provided by merely changing the 15"'s as used in the DD66000.

Mctwins
10-14-2014, 02:54 AM
Hallo!

First of all, understanding in how bass works in a small enclosed space seems to be very limiting here and in other forums. It has nothing to do with the speakers.

To Dynamax.......

Why do you build a sub so close to the Everest? You could add a sub and place it where it has the best freq response in a room.

You schould provide with some measurements with and without those subs to see if there is any difference in freq response. But I bet that you can't get rid of your room resonaces by just adding two subwoofers. The resonances will still be presented in the room if this has not be solved.

Without any acoustical measurements of your room we will never be able to tell how you freq response looks like and most importantly, the Waterfall graphs or Burst Decay

Here is my room acoustic measurement for JBL4429.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35547-My-new-JBL-4429&p=360360&viewfull=1#post360360

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35547-My-new-JBL-4429&p=360385&viewfull=1#post360385

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?35547-My-new-JBL-4429&p=360386&viewfull=1#post360386

How can I have freq response down to 30-35Hz when the specs say's 40Hz-45kHz(-6dB), -3dB schould give around 50Hz, with only one 12" woofer.:dont-know: and this is without DSP.

If I would swap my 4429 to Everest, I wonder how the freq response would look like, maybe the same or little better due to twin 15" woofers. But, Dynamax, I don't think I would need your bass extension in my room.

There are many factors if a speakers sounds bad and this is due to bad room acoustics. Room acoustics in small spaces has to be understand, expecially, room modes. A speakers worst enemy.

DynaMax
10-14-2014, 04:36 AM
Dear McTwins

You did not read the tread very well - sorry.

My "sub" is not a sub but a bass-extension. I tried several "subwoofer" designs but I don't have the skills to make a true high-power subwoofer that will match the Everest.

But actually I found out my need was not SUB frequencies (around 20-30Hz) as I very seldom listen to music from very large church organs, my need was more "body" in LF-bass (30-50Hz).

I tried many LF setups, in-between the E2, behind but close to the E2, behind and in corners behind the E2 etc., but since a 100% blend with E2 are of highest importance, I found that they must be as close as possible to the E2, and in acoustic phase + same front baffle angle as with E2.

Or spoken in another way; the LF EXtensions and the E2 must act as ONE speaker. Especially because one of my very important goals was to avoid any kind of digital correction.

And it works.

I can't support you with measurements from my room, but the room are very large, many windows and openings = minimum room nodes/roomgain but very close to anechoic chamber. I measure output to 20Hz from my E2 - but at minus 12dB, and I measure 30hz from E2 but at minus 6-9 dB. My need to get my ears satisfied are + 6-9dB at 30-40Hz = I need a total gain at 15-18dB in 30-40Hz compared to the capability of the E2.

The E2 can be EQ'ed in a gentle dose at 30-40Hz, but IT CANT DO WHAT I WANT - AND I never expected it to do this (but I expected it to be at least 0 dB at 32Hz.). Perhaps thats the case in small rooms, but not in mine.

If I want 95-100dB at 1000Hz when going loud with my E2, I need 115dB at 30-40Hz to bring balance into the sound. Thats why dual 18" pr. channel are used in order to reduce diaphragm travel + distortion.

The reason for my entrance to this thread are 2 things*;

A: In the design of E2 it was a big mistake to have a 45Hz roll of if 32Hz in some way was possible -as it seems to be from the 4350.

B: The roll-off at 45Hz are very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with the 4" Be, but someone in Harman management forgot to give GT and his design team the green light to develop a matching E2 subwoofer system, dedicated to the many people around the globe who plays our E2 in large rooms:o:

* I think I now have repeated my self 3 times in this thread ..

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

4313B
10-14-2014, 05:02 AM
Hi Henrick, I agree with you 100% about greater LF extension for Everest. For JBL to make their top of the line speaker without greater range is hard to understand.That is because you can't understand the design goals of the system nor do you understand room rise or boundary reinforcement.
I love the Everest, K2 and S4700, however for the Everest, well it is sad.No it really isn't.
I find some people here do not like criticism of JBL speakers and take it personally, which it is not meant to be.It has nothing to do with your criticism and everything to do with your ongoing need to post about your lack of understanding as referenced above. You either can't understand it or don't want to understand it.
I love the look of the Everest, and wanted some, however I chose Magico instead because of the very reason discussed. The EVEREST should be able to sound perfect for all types of music, and without DSP when used with very high quality amps.It does, evidently just not in your particular environment.
JBL has a heritage that is stronger than most other manufacturers around the world, yet it appears as though the bean counters have reduced the company to something it should not be. I hope it returns to the top, and becomes made in the USA again.The transducers in the Everest II are among the best transducers JBL has ever produced. Ever. If the bean counters always got their way then they would never have allowed for the production of such a state of the art system.

Your personal lack of understanding does not equal a failure on JBL's part.

In your specific case I think you would like the low frequency response of the 1400 Array best. It doesn't like smaller rooms with alot of boundary reinforcement like the Everest II does. Unfortunately the LE14H-3, great as it is, is no match for the performance of the 1501AL.

ivica
10-14-2014, 05:10 AM
My "sub" is not a sub but a bass-extension.....my need was more "body" in LF-bass (30-50Hz).

...I measure output to 20Hz from my E2 - but at minus 12dB, and I measure 30hz from E2 but at minus 6-9 dB.
My need to get my ears satisfied are + 6-9dB at 30-40Hz = I need a total gain at 15-18dB in 30-40Hz compared to the capability of the E2.

The E2 can be EQ'ed in a gentle dose at 30-40Hz, but IT CANT DO WHAT I WANT - AND I never expected it to do this (but I expected it to be at least 0 dB at 32Hz.). Perhaps thats the case in small rooms, but not in mine.

If I want 95-100dB at 1000Hz when going loud with my E2, I need 115dB at 30-40Hz to bring balance into the sound.

A: In the design of E2 it was a big mistake to have a 45Hz roll of if 32Hz in some way was possible -as it seems to be from the 4350.

B: The roll-off at 45Hz are very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with the 4" Be, but someone in Harman management forgot to give GT and his design team the green light to develop a matching E2 subwoofer system, dedicated to the many people around the globe who plays our E2 in large rooms:o:
.....
Henrik, DynaMax


Hi DynaMax,

Lot of your words are understandable for me, but I can not understand why you decide to enhance +9dB the region 30-40Hz. If you are listening the music on the level near the real one as has been while recording I think that it would be not correct, but if you have decide to 'flatten' the human hearing sensitivity vs frequency, that can be a problem if not always the same level of the music reproduction would be the case. I think that almost as flatter as possible frequency response of the speaker has to be the target point for the producers.
So taking these in mind it seems to me that a single 18"driver (95~98 dB/1W/1m) would be enough, so as used in short region (up to 60~80Hz) I can imagine that the greatest problem would be to build passive networks for dividing that 'sub-bass' and the rest of the DD66k system.

Regards
ivica

4313B
10-14-2014, 05:15 AM
A: In the design of E2 it was a big mistake to have a 45Hz roll of if 32Hz in some way was possible -as it seems to be from the 4350.It was not a big mistake, it was intentional. The transducers were designed specifically to do what they do in the requisite volume/tuning and intended listening environment.

If there was a mistake on JBL's part it would arguably be that they allowed the Everest II to be sold outside of Asia.

B: The roll-off at 45Hz are very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with the 4" BeThat has nothing to do with it.

However, I see a glimmer of hope for you here... rephrase your sentence something like this - "The roll-off at 45 Hz is very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with a smaller room wherein boundary reinforcement and room rise will play a major part in overall system response"
but someone in Harman management forgot to give GT and his design team the green light to develop a matching E2 subwoofer system, dedicated to the many people around the globe who plays our E2 in large rooms:o:That would be the various subwoofers Harman already has available for HT. The Everest II has no need of subwoofers for dedicated two-channel music reproduction.

* I think I now have repeated my self 3 times in this thread ..
Yep, and you still refuse to get with the program and realize that these particular loudspeakers probably aren't for you. They are above your skill set and blaming JBL for that is absurd.

4313B
10-14-2014, 05:39 AM
So taking these in mind it seems to me that a single 18"driver (95~98 dB/1W/1m) would be enough, so as used in short region (up to 60~80Hz) I can imagine that the greatest problem would be to build passive networks for dividing that 'sub-bass' and the rest of the DD66k system.My experience has been that none of the eighteens are good enough for use with the likes of the 1501AL. I'd rather use more 1501AL's, bandwidth limited in the subwoofer role if needed. They have plenty of efficiency and power handling for typical home use. pos is right in that it would have been nice to get some 1501AL-1's with the lower Fs before JBL canned their production. It was always the intent of JBL Engineering that these transducers and their recone kits should be available. Harman decided differently...

*****

Like G.T. has said countless times, EQ can be added to the Everest II to fill in the bottom in larger rooms where room rise begins at a lower frequency and boundary reinforcement is significantly reduced. It isn't an issue. One can adjust the Q of the bump filter as desired. This concept is no different than any of the subwoofers JBL uses (In fact, read the 4645 cut sheet to understand the concepts of room rise, boundary reinforcement and EQ). This concept is no different than the design of the M2, wherein JBL is adding a modest ~ 4 dB bump at ~ 22 Hz. This concept is no different than G.T. saying "Use the 2234H instead of the 2235H and add a couple dB of boost to fill in the bottom."

ivica
10-14-2014, 05:44 AM
.....


If there was a mistake on JBL's part it would arguably be that they allowed the Everest II to be sold outside of Asia.
That has nothing to do with it.

However, I see a glimmer of hope ........something like this - "The roll-off at 45 Hz is very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with a smaller room wherein boundary reinforcement and room rise will play a major part in overall system response".

Hi 4313B,

From the theoretical point of view can agree with You , but I can not imagine that You believe that 60k$ speakers are designed to be used in smaller rooms mainly for Asian market. That would be strange from my point of view that a person ( JBL customer) would pay for the speakers ONLY 60K$ (not to mention the price for the rest of the audio system), and will not have enough room size to put in (the speakers that are about 1m x 1m x 0.5m in size). I think that LF response of the DD66k is not the best in JBL tradition, and may be GT can give us an answer, as the used driver (150xAL) construction has great potential. May be, You can, ask GT in a appropriate situation. May be I am wrong but, GT has been present while a lot of older 43xx,44xx models were born where LF response had been elaborated.

regards
ivica

ivica
10-14-2014, 05:50 AM
My experience has been that none of the eighteens are good enough for use with the likes of the 1501AL. I'd rather use more 1501AL's, bandwidth limited in the subwoofer role if needed. They have plenty of efficiency and power handling for typical home use. pos is right in that it would have been nice to get some 1501AL-1's with the lower Fs before JBL canned their production. It was always the intent of JBL Engineering that these transducers and their recone kits should be available. Harman decided differently...

Like Greg has said countless times, EQ can be added to the Everest II to fill in the bottom in larger rooms where room rise begins at a lower frequency and boundary reinforcement is significantly reduced. It isn't an issue. One can adjust the Q of the bump filter as desired.

Hi 4313B,

YES, finally, that is my wounder (too), why GT has not used one of the 15" (helper bass) with the lower Fs in order to enhance ultra-LF response.

regards
ivica

4313B
10-14-2014, 05:57 AM
Hi 4313B,

From the theoretical point of view can agree with You , but I can not imagine that You believe that 60k$ speakers are designed to be used in smaller rooms mainly for Asian market. That would be strange from my point of view that a person ( JBL customer) would pay for the speakers ONLY 60K$ (not to mention the price for the rest of the audio system), and will not have enough room size to put in (the speakers that are about 1m x 1m x 0.5m in size). I think that LF response of the DD66k is not the best in JBL tradition, and may be GT can give us an answer, as the used driver (150xAL) construction has great potential. May be, You can, ask GT in a appropriate situation. May be I am wrong but, GT has been present while a lot of older 43xx,44xx models were born where LF response had been elaborated.

regards
ivicaThe 43xx and 44xx had overblown low frequency response in many home environments and EQ was required to cut low frequency output. In a Studio they were often equalized for the best possible response, something "audiophiles" seem loathe to do. ;)

The Everest II was not designed to be used in a Studio environment. It was designed to be an ultra-wide bandwidth, ultra-low distortion, state-of-the-art loudspeaker system and none of us were allowed to say a whole lot about it until Stereo Sound of Japan introduced it. My understanding is that without the President of Harman Japan, the system would never have seen the light of day. The simple fact is, the Everest II sold in greater numbers than JBL had ever hoped. At one point they could not keep up with demand. And, here's the real clincher, Harman reversed the decision to ashcan K2-S9900 and Everest II production. At one point, around this time last year in fact, the word was that Harman had decided to cease production and fulfill any new orders with remaining stock until depleted. That was stated at CEDIA.

4313B
10-14-2014, 05:59 AM
Hi 4313B,

YES, finally, that is my wounder (too), why GT has not used one of the 15" (helper bass) with the lower Fs in order to enhance ultra-LF response.

regards
ivicaI believe the DD65000 used two 1501AL-1's...

Like I posted above, it had always been the intent of JBL Engineering for the 1501AL-1 (DD65000), 1501AL-2 (DD67000) and their recone kits to be made available. Harman dropped the ball on that one.

I personally prefer the 1501AL-2 with the cloth surround even though it has the higher Fs. In my room it does everything I could possibly want a fifteen to do. I would have liked to have gotten a pair of 1501AL-1's for use as subs for HT though. Oh well. I'll live. :) They would have been total overkill.

ivica
10-14-2014, 06:21 AM
I believe the DD65000 used two 1501AL-1's...

Like I posted above, it had always been the intent of JBL Engineering for the 1501AL-1, 1501AL-2 and their recone kits to be made available. Harman dropped the ball on that one.

May be You are right, as for DD65k it is said:
" Frequency response (–6dB):
31Hz – 50kHz (half space);
40Hz – 50kHz (anechoic)"

regards
ivica

4313B
10-14-2014, 06:25 AM
May be You are right, as for DD65k it is said:
" Frequency response (–6dB):
31Hz – 50kHz (half space);
40Hz – 50kHz (anechoic)"

regards
ivicaYep, and what do you imagine the DD65000 is doing in quarter space?

Eighth space? Think of a Hartsfield in the corner of a room. ;) Now, think of a 4355 in the corner of a room. :barf:

You should now have a thorough understanding of the low frequency response of the Everest II. :)

Thank you ivica :)


*****

I don't want to hear any more whining about the Everest II guys. ;) It makes you all sound clueless. :rotfl:




Gotta love this one...
Too bad Harman wasn't up to the task of simply selling these folks four more 1501AL's to use for subs. :rolleyes:

Mctwins
10-14-2014, 07:10 AM
Dear McTwins

You did not read the tread very well - sorry.

My "sub" is not a sub but a bass-extension. I tried several "subwoofer" designs but I don't have the skills to make a true high-power subwoofer that will match the Everest.

But actually I found out my need was not SUB frequencies (around 20-30Hz) as I very seldom listen to music from very large church organs, my need was more "body" in LF-bass (30-50Hz).

I tried many LF setups, in-between the E2, behind but close to the E2, behind and in corners behind the E2 etc., but since a 100% blend with E2 are of highest importance, I found that they must be as close as possible to the E2, and in acoustic phase + same front baffle angle as with E2.

Or spoken in another way; the LF EXtensions and the E2 must act as ONE speaker. Especially because one of my very important goals was to avoid any kind of digital correction.

And it works.

I can't support you with measurements from my room, but the room are very large, many windows and openings = minimum room nodes/roomgain but very close to anechoic chamber. I measure output to 20Hz from my E2 - but at minus 12dB, and I measure 30hz from E2 but at minus 6-9 dB. My need to get my ears satisfied are + 6-9dB at 30-40Hz = I need a total gain at 15-18dB in 30-40Hz compared to the capability of the E2.

The E2 can be EQ'ed in a gentle dose at 30-40Hz, but IT CANT DO WHAT I WANT - AND I never expected it to do this (but I expected it to be at least 0 dB at 32Hz.). Perhaps thats the case in small rooms, but not in mine.

If I want 95-100dB at 1000Hz when going loud with my E2, I need 115dB at 30-40Hz to bring balance into the sound. Thats why dual 18" pr. channel are used in order to reduce diaphragm travel + distortion.

The reason for my entrance to this thread are 2 things*;

A: In the design of E2 it was a big mistake to have a 45Hz roll of if 32Hz in some way was possible -as it seems to be from the 4350.

B: The roll-off at 45Hz are very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with the 4" Be, but someone in Harman management forgot to give GT and his design team the green light to develop a matching E2 subwoofer system, dedicated to the many people around the globe who plays our E2 in large rooms:o:

* I think I now have repeated my self 3 times in this thread ..

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

It is a pity that you can't provide with measurements, but I was afraid you would say that.

How do you know that it works??without doing measurements. It is difficult to evalute only with SPL level, as I asume you are doing here. How do you know that you have minimum room nodes/room gain??

I belive that you have a wrong room, acoustically speaking, and this is your major problem with bass reproduction and you are blaming the speakers. You can't expect 0dB at 32Hz if you don't have the room to support it.

Too me, building subwoofers/bass-extension is one thing, understanding room modes/nodes behavior in a room(regardless of size) is another matter.

Mctwins
10-14-2014, 07:15 AM
May be You are right, as for DD65k it is said:
" Frequency response (–6dB):
31Hz – 50kHz (half space);
40Hz – 50kHz (anechoic)"

regards
ivica

Hallo!

At munich show, I listen with the 1501AL-2:applaud:

Mr. Widget
10-14-2014, 09:15 AM
My need to get my ears satisfied are + 6-9dB at 30-40Hz = I need a total gain at 15-18dB in 30-40Hz compared to the capability of the E2.

The E2 can be EQ'ed in a gentle dose at 30-40Hz, but IT CANT DO WHAT I WANT - AND I never expected it to do this (but I expected it to be at least 0 dB at 32Hz.). Perhaps thats the case in small rooms, but not in mine.

If I want 95-100dB at 1000Hz when going loud with my E2, I need 115dB at 30-40Hz to bring balance into the sound. Thats why dual 18" pr. channel are used in order to reduce diaphragm travel + distortion.The reason for my entrance to this thread are 2 things*;

A: In the design of E2 it was a big mistake to have a 45Hz roll of if 32Hz in some way was possible -as it seems to be from the 4350.

B: The roll-off at 45Hz are very clever to secure the 15" drivers blend with the 4" Be, but someone in Harman management forgot to give GT and his design team the green light to develop a matching E2 subwoofer system, dedicated to the many people around the globe who plays our E2 in large rooms:o: I think I finally get it. You have very specific desires that lie far outside of the mainstream. Nothing wrong with that, but suggesting that this very well balanced speaker is a poor design because it doesn't thump the gangsta music :D the way you want it to is where many of us take exception.

I think you have found the perfect solution for your needs. That is great. You would probably find that JBL Pro has far more systems that would satisfy you at a far lower cost of entry, but to be sure, they do have a more industrial aesthetic.

Thank you for sharing. It is always interesting and enlightening to see how other people enjoy their music.


Widget

SEAWOLF97
10-14-2014, 09:53 AM
I think you have found the perfect solution for your needs. That is great. You would probably find that JBL Pro has far more systems that would satisfy you at a far lower cost of entry, but to be sure, they do have a more industrial aesthetic.
Widget

Looks to me like Mr.W has nailed it.

I have never and most likely never will even see E2's , but have read the GT quote that JBL's that are destined for Asia are designed with different LF goals.

If your tastes are different ... modify the room or add helpers as DynaMax has done. I can't understand the big controversy :dont-know:

4313B
10-14-2014, 10:19 AM
Looks to me like Mr.W has nailed it.

I have never and most likely never will even see E2's , but have read the GT quote that JBL's that are destined for Asia are designed with different LF goals.

If your tastes are different ... modify the room or add helpers as DynaMax has done. I can't understand the big controversy :dont-know:The controversy started way back in 2006 when JBL published the system specifications and several people freaked out and posted about the specs not stating 20-20kHz, +-3dB for a $65,000 pair of loudspeakers when everyone has $6.50 ear buds that can easily do that. ;)

Every few years another person freaks out and posts about this.


Another fun fact is with respect to the 045Be as used in the Everest II. Suffice it to say that one simply has to know the audience one is pandering to.

baldrick
10-14-2014, 10:48 AM
Another fun fact is with respect to the 045Be as used in the Everest II. Suffice it to say that one simply has to know the audience one is pandering to.

What is in fact the crossover between 476Be and 045Be in EII? And would a EII without 045Be sound quite OK?

Mr. Widget
10-14-2014, 01:09 PM
What is in fact the crossover between 476Be and 045Be in EII? And would a EII without 045Be sound quite OK?The published spec is that the crossover frequency is 20KHz. I doubt anyone would notice if the 045Be was disconnected.


Widget

baldrick
10-14-2014, 02:08 PM
The published spec is that the crossover frequency is 20KHz. I doubt anyone would notice if the 045Be was disconnected.


Those specs are exactly why I asked the question, I couldn't belive it could be correct!! But if they really are, and that the MF do in fact play up to 20khz without UHF that is in VERY good news for my "DD66000 DIY plans" :) Does this mean that the DD66000 crossover does not have any lowpass filter for the 476Be?

bubbleboy76
10-14-2014, 02:44 PM
Yep, and what do you imagine the DD65000 is doing in quarter space?

Eighth space? Think of a Hartsfield in the corner of a room. ;) Now, think of a 4355 in the corner of a room. :barf:

You should now have a thorough understanding of the low frequency response of the Everest II. :)

Thank you ivica :)


*****

I don't want to hear any more whining about the Everest II guys. ;) It makes you all sound clueless. :rotfl:




Gotta love this one...
Too bad Harman wasn't up to the task of simply selling these folks four more 1501AL's to use for subs. :rolleyes:

lol

DynaMax
10-14-2014, 05:01 PM
Dear 4313B

You need to auditioned my system before getting personal - okay? And you are very welcome.

Dear Widget.

You are close - but no, you don't got it yet.

This is not about my personal needs, but about mine AND my clients needs!

An E2 client is not necessarily located in a little flat down-town Tokyo and a lover of this :nopity: but could actually be a "young man" that don't like the look of the pro-gear, but has the money for the E2 and who love spending saturday nights with friends (especially girlfriends) playing THIS :dj-party: at his E2..

And what is wrong with that?

I have had clients listening to Gangsta style from Snoop-dog and Ice-T, as well as thunderous music from Rimsky-Korsakov, Richard Strauss and Tchaikovsky. Sometimes in the same person.

For them music is FUN and a pair of E2 is their toy. But if the toy don't deliver the fun, they will find a piece of toy who actually CAN deliver the fun.

If those clients walk out of my door because they got disappointed from the E2 and chose another brand from another dealer than me, I can't pay my bills, and I can't deliver the sales figures as I was asked from Harman sales division to deliver.

But as you said; JBL-Pro might be the right place.. Then tell management to give me some kind of a pair of ASB-7128 from the JBL pro division, in a civilized suit and E2 enclosure style, an electronic crossover with a bump like the BX-63 for the B-460.

THEN bass-bangers like me and my clients will become happy, I promise you and 4313B I won't show-up in this forum again, and I'll promise Harman Management increased sales figures..:coolness:

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

BMWCCA
10-14-2014, 06:39 PM
Y'all newbies with the under-40 post counts are contributing nothing to this thread with your attitude. Do the rest of us a favor and, if you want to continue to post here, be civil. You can disagree but don't show your ass or we'll think you're one. We're all here to share and enjoy our preferred method of listening to music. Many of us actually learn from others here. Don't pee in the pool.

My 4345s are claimed to be +3,-6dB from 32Hz - 20kHz. That works fine for me no matter what material I'm playing through them. (Of course that will never include "Gangsta" rap. Show me I'm missing something!)

Everyone is welcome here but I suggest you go back and temper your posts through some careful editing. I still consider myself a guest here and I'm embarrassed by some of the behavior in this thread.

:banghead:

AussieSteve
10-14-2014, 06:55 PM
Dear 4313B

You need to auditioned my system before getting personal - okay? And you are very welcome.

Dear Widget.

You are close - but no, you don't got it yet.

This is not about my personal needs, but about mine AND my clients needs!

An E2 client is not necessarily located in a little flat down-town Tokyo and a lover of this :nopity: but could actually be a "young man" that don't like the look of the pro-gear, but has the money for the E2 and who love spending saturday nights with friends (especially girlfriends) playing THIS :dj-party: at his E2..

And what is wrong with that?

I have had clients listening to Gangsta style from Snoop-dog and Ice-T, as well as thunderous music from Rimsky-Korsakov, Richard Strauss and Tchaikovsky. Sometimes in the same person.

For them music is FUN and a pair of E2 is their toy. But if the toy don't deliver the fun, they will find a piece of toy who actually CAN deliver the fun.

If those clients walk out of my door because they got disappointed from the E2 and chose another brand from another dealer than me, I can't pay my bills, and I can't deliver the sales figures as I was asked from Harman sales division to deliver.

But as you said; JBL-Pro might be the right place.. Then tell management to give me some kind of a pair of ASB-7128 from the JBL pro division, in a civilized suit and E2 enclosure style, an electronic crossover with a bump like the BX-63 for the B-460.

THEN bass-bangers like me and my clients will become happy, I promise you and 4313B I won't show-up in this forum again, and I'll promise Harman Management increased sales figures..:coolness:

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)





I agree with you DynaMax, the people here must all work for Harman. I have found that if I post a different opinion, I am harassed. I am also finished with this forum, they can all share their love of JBL together and make opinions about things they do not understand. Many of them admit they have never heard the E2! If we are wrong, why is JBL a Mexican company now, struggling to survive in the speaker world. Raidho and Marten could teach them about speaker design. It is a shame though, JBL deserve more. Mr Lansing would be very sad with the direction of the company.

Jonas_h
10-14-2014, 07:03 PM
It seems like there are multiple accusations flying around here.

1. E2 is said to be a "bad design" with mistakes etc because of it's roll off.
2. Harman are bad people for not designing a subwoofer with E2 design with an all analog crossover

For the first point: If we look at these accusations from an objective point of view:
E2 was marketed to the Asian market which have very small rooms. This was taken into account when designing the E2 and they actually have the required extension in these rooms. If E2 was designed to have flat response in a larger room, then the Asian market would instantly classify the E2's as inaccurate one-note bass boosted speakers. This could be solved by using some EQ, but as others have pointed out in this thread, EQ is a big no-go for the audiophile minds.

So this is a matter of who JBL would like to satisfy. People with huge rooms or people with smaller rooms. I'm very sure that someone at JBL analyzed this in terms of profit.

For the second point: What would the target be for this kind of subwoofer/crossover. If it should have the design which is being proposed, it would only be targeted to people having E2's in their rooms. Further more it would be targeted to people having huge rooms where the room gain is not sufficient. We can further shrink this target group with only the people not wanting to use any EQ on the E2's.

I don't have any numbers, but my guess is that with the time and money which is required for R&D and manufacturing and the amount of people in that specific target group, it will not add up.

This is my view on all of this. I tried to be as objective as possible so hopefully no-one will take my post personal and get offended.

Mr. Widget
10-14-2014, 07:04 PM
I agree with you DynaMax...Thank you for your opinion minus the insults. I have deleted your earlier post and sent you a warning about insulting fellow forum members.


Widget

SEAWOLF97
10-14-2014, 07:16 PM
If there was a mistake on JBL's part it would arguably be that they allowed the Everest II to be sold outside of Asia.

I wonder IF JBL might have avoided all this by making region specific models ?

ie: a E2A for the voiced for Asia units and a E2USEU for US and Europe

would that entail a lot more than different networks ? (and maybe LF driver :dont-know:)

BMWCCA
10-14-2014, 10:03 PM
Mr Lansing would be very sad with the direction of the company.

He was sad enough long ago to take his own life.

His insurance policy is the only thing that kept the business going. How's that for directing from the grave?

If you really must go, we'll miss you and your JBL experience.


"Aussie, we hardly knew ye."

4313B
10-14-2014, 11:22 PM
I wonder IF JBL might have avoided all this by making region specific models ?

ie: a E2A for the voiced for Asia units and a E2USEU for US and Europe

would that entail a lot more than different networks ? (and maybe LF driver :dont-know:)I did find the DD65000 and the DD67000 interesting with the 1501AL-1 and 1501AL-2 derived from the original 1501AL used in the DD66000.
And like we've discussed previously, both models were intended to be available over the counter for Everest II owners who might want to switch out the low frequency transducers.
G.T. has mentioned that the newer low frequency transducers work better in his larger room. In any case, he has been able to get everything working the way he likes in his particular living room so it can be done.
At one point I really thought we might be looking at an upgrade option. JBL had that L250 to 250Ti upgrade option many years ago and I personally thought it worked out perfectly.
It seems like there are multiple accusations flying around here.

1. E2 is said to be a "bad design" with mistakes etc because of it's roll off.
2. Harman are bad people for not designing a subwoofer with E2 design with an all analog crossover

For the first point: If we look at these accusations from an objective point of view:
E2 was marketed to the Asian market which have very small rooms. This was taken into account when designing the E2 and they actually have the required extension in these rooms. If E2 was designed to have flat response in a larger room, then the Asian market would instantly classify the E2's as inaccurate one-note bass boosted speakers. This could be solved by using some EQ, but as others have pointed out in this thread, EQ is a big no-go for the audiophile minds.

So this is a matter of who JBL would like to satisfy. People with huge rooms or people with smaller rooms. I'm very sure that someone at JBL analyzed this in terms of profit.

For the second point: What would the target be for this kind of subwoofer/crossover. If it should have the design which is being proposed, it would only be targeted to people having E2's in their rooms. Further more it would be targeted to people having huge rooms where the room gain is not sufficient. We can further shrink this target group with only the people not wanting to use any EQ on the E2's.

I don't have any numbers, but my guess is that with the time and money which is required for R&D and manufacturing and the amount of people in that specific target group, it will not add up.

This is my view on all of this. I tried to be as objective as possible so hopefully no-one will take my post personal and get offended.Very nice! :yes:

4313B
10-15-2014, 12:22 AM
You need to auditioned my system before getting personal - okay? And you are very welcome.If it makes you happy then that is all that matters.

An E2 client is not necessarily located in a little flat down-town Tokyo and a lover of this :nopity: but could actually be a "young man" that don't like the look of the pro-gear, but has the money for the E2 and who love spending saturday nights with friends (especially girlfriends) playing THIS :dj-party: at his E2..

And what is wrong with that?Nothing. Bi-amp a pair of Everest II's with a pair of the big Crown I-Techs, apply some PEQ and bring the house down. It's just that simple.

There is one thing you don't want to do though and that is, you don't want to apply anything below system resonance, and in the case of the Everest II that is around 30-32 Hz. This is virtually NO DIFFERENT than most of the large JBL Studio Monitors from the past 50 years, Fb ~ 30 Hz. Exceptions would be the 4355 and 4435 at 26 Hz and the new ultra modern M2 at 22 Hz.

You can adjust the Q of the various PEQ points in the Crowns and that will allow for filling in the bottom end of the Everest II as desired. The 1501AL's were intentionally beefed up so people could do just that, for example George Augsperger if he uses them in a studio setting.

Haven't I mentioned all this before?

Now, there are going to be some people who know exactly what I am talking about. They get a cookie.
Then there are going to be some people who go into some kind of seizure at the mention of Crown, DSP, EQ, etc. Ignore them because they just flat out don't get it and probably never will. They can sit in the corner and cry while the rest of us are out on the floor dancing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kTlColRjJo

ivica
10-15-2014, 12:46 AM
Those specs are exactly why I asked the question, I couldn't belive it could be correct!! But if they really are, and that the MF do in fact play up to 20khz without UHF that is in VERY good news for my "DD66000 DIY plans" :) Does this mean that the DD66000 crossover does not have any low pass filter for the 476Be?

Hi baldrick,

You are right that , You can survive, without 045Be implemented, but the problem can arise in finding a pair of 476Be in good condition. I can only imagine that with the DSP EQ only TAD 400x or D2430K can be applied.
Have a good luck in your DD66-65-67 DIY project.


regards
ivica

Mr. Widget
10-15-2014, 08:23 AM
Hi baldrick,

You are right that , You can survive, without 045Be implemented, but the problem can arise in finding a pair of 476Be in good condition. I can only imagine that with the DSP EQ only TAD 400x or D2430K can be applied.
Have a good luck in your DD66-65-67 DIY project.


regards
ivicaThe TAD TD-4001 is a 2" exit and has the wrong geometry, not sure about the 4002 with the "adapter" removed making it a 1.5" exit. I have compared the 476Be and 4003 on the same horn and found them to perform similarly with the TAD out performing the JBL slightly in linearity. That said the 4003 while technically available is currently about $9,000 for a pair.


Widget

pos
10-15-2014, 08:30 AM
One thing to keep in mind about 1.5" compression drivers:
What JBL calls 1.5" is a 38mm aperture (or is it 38.1mm?)
What TAD calls 1.5" is 39mm aperture (TD4002Z and TD4003)

This small difference makes it difficult to switch between JBL and TAD drivers on the same horns, as throat matching is obviously very important
(and of course the bolt pattern is also different, but at least this does not affect sound :D)

Doc Mark
10-15-2014, 08:54 AM
Good Morning, All,

I've read this thread several times, and each time I keep seeing good, positive, and informative comments from those who actually are trying to answer a question, and then, when the person who asked the question is not satisfied with the answers, the questions change, and goal posts are moved to some other part of an "unasked" question. After trying to make sense of it all, I've finally come to the conclusion, that some is whole thing is a tempest in a teapot, and akin to someone who wants to buy a Stradivarius violin (so they can have "the very best and most expensive" violin), and then get their panties all in a bunch because they can't chop wood with it!! ;)

The questions have been asked, and answered, yet the questioner is still not happy, and begins to call names, and post insults..... I do not see this as productive, or helpful, in any way, shape, or form. I did, however, enjoy the photos of the "bass extension" setup. Too bad that wasn't "good enough", as this thread could have had an entirely different feel to it, as in, "here's my solution to those who wish to shake the room with their new Everest system"! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

4313B
10-15-2014, 09:50 AM
this thread could have had an entirely different feel to it, as in, "here's my solution to those who wish to shake the room with their new Everest system"!Yep.

I apologize for getting so aggravated so quickly when people post misinformation and then refuse to adjust their perception when presented with the correct data.
People go to the trouble of trying to explain what is actually going on with a specific system and certain "hecklers" in the "audience" keep responding with something like "but Harman screwed up and made the system without any bass".

Rest assured, the Everest II was many years in development and JBL Engineering most assuredly did not "screw up" given the original design goals.
The components are top shelf and the enclosure design has been described as a work of art countless times.
It is a Statement Loudspeaker System in the tradition of the Hartsfield and Paragon but it won't be everyone's cup of tea.
Instead of posting some BS about Harman screwing up, this forum being full of JBL minions, and James B. Lansing rolling around in his grave, it's probably best to just say something like "I tried it but I couldn't get it to do what I wanted in my environment." I think we've all experienced that.

Mr. Widget
10-15-2014, 10:30 AM
Instead of posting some BS about Harman screwing up, this forum being full of JBL minions, and James B. Lansing rolling around in his grave it's probably best to just say something like "I tried it but I couldn't get it to do what I wanted in my environment."But then this wouldn't be the internet would it? :D

Who was it who said, "You can't please all of the people... " :)

Interestingly after much discussion and a fair amount of arm waving etc. it turns out that the OP and his friends/clients want a speaker that the DD66000 is not. They want a gut wrenching club system that looks elegant. I can't fault them for that and can even relate, but the DD66000 was certainly not designed to be that. It could have been if that is what the majority of listeners wanted, but I think it is safe to say that is not the market the DD66000 was designed for.

Now, if they want maximum SPL and a JBL solution... they might want to use these JBL ASB7118 subwoofers (4800 watt peak)



Widget

4313B
10-15-2014, 10:40 AM
Cool!

http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SSASB7118.0609.pdf

I couldn't help but notice JBL showing what happens in a 2 pi versus 4 pi environment... I wonder where they came up with that load of malarkey.

Hey! Maybe the Internet could have avoided a bunch of trolling if JBL had posted similar curves for the Everest II! :hmm: People do love graphs. :yes:

macaroonie
10-15-2014, 11:29 AM
I couldn't help but notice JBL showing what happens in a 2 pi versus 4 pi environment... I wonder where they came up with that load of malarkey.



Didn't Roy Allison write a paper on all that malarkey ? I remember his line of speakers using this to pretty good effect ' back in the day '.
Not making any particular point , just idle reminiscing.

4313B
10-15-2014, 11:47 AM
Not making any particular point , just idle reminiscing.My context was in relation to a now deleted post wherein an audio expert suggested that I didn't know what I was talking about with respect to 2 pi, 4 pi and 8th pi environments.
And then we run across yet another document from JBL that peddles this same inane phenomenon. ;)

fpitas
10-15-2014, 01:04 PM
Baffle step: the great deception? ;)

Doc Mark
10-15-2014, 01:52 PM
Hey, 4313B,

Actually, I thought your comments were spot on the money. My comment on this thread was aimed at "the other guys", and most certainly not at you. You answered their questions, and did a good job of it, yet the goal posts were moved, and the questions were asked again. Not your fault, in the least, and no apology needed, IMHO. Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

DynaMax
10-15-2014, 06:10 PM
DOC MARK said:

"here's my solution to those who wish to shake the room with their new Everest system"!

Unfortunately it is not that easy DOC..

You mentioned you read this thread several times, but you miss some very important (that nothing has to do with LF from E2..), and I will repeat my self especially for you, but I will try to make it short:

Despite I KNEW a lot would kick my a… I decided to enter the thread the way I did. And here is why:

Until I signed agreement with JBL europe head office (Paris) in 2006, nobody managed to sell any K2 speakers or Synthesis systems in Denmark.

But when I entered the scene, I sold 5-6 pairs of K2 and 3 large Synthesis theater including 2 Everest systems from 2006-2009. But in order to do this I invested a large amount in JBL inventory and made huge+expensive marketing. To do this I made a loan in my bank, secured in the private house of my and my wife, and today we still have debt in the bank..

But in 2009 a thief in a nice suit from a Harman London office (Mr. Andy Baker) showed up and stole my business without any logic explanations but a lot of golden words like "together we all in this new way of doing things will grew stronger and better", "look at the positive things", "bla, bla, bla",..

My distribution was given to the local Mark Levinson distributor accompanied with the local Lexicon distributor, I was reduced from distributor to retailer. Worse: all products prices was raised by 30% and customers for JBL K2 + E2 ran away, and my business dropped like an stone ..!

Try to imagine being in my pants; 3 years of hard work wiped away and dept. in the bank for some JBL inventory..

And honestly speaking; I hate all of them who let this happen.

That was the emotional part of the story; here comes the objective business considerations:

According to rumors the guys who took over from me don't do better than I did, and especially the pricing policy decided from Harman management has to bee blamed = it all comes down to Harman management stupidity. Classé amps and B&W 800 series speakers sells in bundles here, but ML and JBL K2 doesn't - despite it could.

JBL K2 + E2 could have HAD a great position here if Harman management has kept the Paris head office and they let me doing what I was in the middle of doing; or at least they could have said to me; "Henrik, we wan't your business as we think we can do even better than you does - how much do we have to pay you to leave?"

Well … All this happened in 2009 - but why am I writing about this in this forum 5 years later?

Because I love my E2 speakers, and I admire GT and his team very much, but I have a huge problem with the Harman management.

And my point are that the current management don't have a clue about what they are doing - opposite GT and his team as they are brilliant.

Replace management and send GT and his team a truck load of money and let them go nuts.

Especially to Jonas H and 4313B: The easiest thing in the world for a billion dollar company like Harman and the GT design team, would be to dress-up a pair of ASB-7128 boxes (dual 2269H pr. channel = True Everest SUB), into some curved enclosures (with proper reinforcement), in E2 veneer finish, supplied by a faceliftet BX-63. Then the E2 could be offered as a complete line-packaged system, and the cost to develop this would be a tiny fraction of the income from doing this. By this said no can doubt that I totally disagree with 4313B and Jonas H. post to the tread.

A coclusion:

Hopefully you my Dear DOC MARK now see my story has two sides; the one about my EXtensions that shine -and the back side about how I was treated like a war criminal from harman corp. I wanted to show both, and I am very sorry if I express my self in a bad manner which is not my intensions (perhaps due to translation complications). Also emotions can be hard to control when things who has been very close to you are stolen from you - from one day to another. I needed to breath and I wanted to show my jewels at one and the same time. And I can effort to do so, since I have nothing to loose..

Think about one thing; I could have trashed my E2 5 years ago when Andy Baker collapsed my world, but I didn't .. Today I consider my self at the bright side as I have succeeded by having the greatest sounding 3 way active-crossover E2 system + additional LF surface (in spades). I think there is two words for that; "true passion".

And a very last friendly comment to all the "tech-guys" in here: You can all talk from now until christmas Y3K, but according to ME there are no substitute for MAX surface = less travel in LF reproduction..:coolness:

Kind ragerds
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

4313B
10-15-2014, 07:26 PM
Especially to Jonas H and 4313B: The easiest thing in the world for a billion dollar company like Harman and the GT design team, would be to dress-up a pair of ASB-7128 boxes (dual 2269H pr. channel = True Everest SUB), into some curved enclosures (with proper reinforcement), in E2 veneer finish, supplied by a faceliftet BX-63. Then the E2 could be offered as a complete line-packaged system, and the cost to develop this would be a tiny fraction of the income from doing this. By this said no can doubt that I totally disagree with 4313B and Jonas H. post to the tread.I guess we will just have to wait and see if Harman comes around to your way of thinking. :dont-know:

I can tell you that the 1500 Array is similar to the B380/B460 in that is uses a ~ 4 dB boost at box resonance, which, incidentally, is also 26 Hz just like the B380 and B460 were. The W1500H is a markedly superior transducer to either the 2235H or 2245H though.

And a very last friendly comment to all the "tech-guys" in here: You can all talk from now until christmas Y3K, but according to ME there are no substitute for MAX surface = less travel in LF reproduction..:coolness:
We've gone over that numerous times. You just haven't been around to see all the conversations over these many years. ;)

Ducatista47
10-15-2014, 10:10 PM
I admit I have not read the entire thread, not even close. But I think something fundamental is being overlooked. Bassheads, to put it bluntly, are never asking for musical fidelity at all, never mind high fidelity. There is nothing wrong with getting off on thunderous bass output, but bass energy in that class is rarely present in music sources. Being a long time designated driver, I have suffered though/experienced a great deal of club sound. What the crowd wants is bass mixed way up. I have witnessed all this hundreds of times, sober. I don't recommend it; get as drunk as the rest to keep your sanity. Sober, that kind of mix sounds very un-musical. Downright weird, like playing a horn part with a bass drum.

The Everest II has the reputation of being a very low distortion/very high fidelity system. I believe that was of primary consideration in its design, correct? Designed, like Stax headphones, to deliver every bit of bass that is on the recording, but no more. So why in the heck would anyone select it to deliver disorted frequency reproduction? That would be unrealistic, in every sense of the term to give the full meaning here, and frankly, to use a kind word, ignorant. When someone parades their ignorance on an expert forum, a crapstorm should be the expected result. This is like rocking a boat and feeling mistreated when you get hit on the head by the boom. But of course being hit on the head by the "boom" is what those aforementioned club goers were after in the first place. Those routine multiple eighteen inch Yamahas do that very well because high fidelity is not the least bit necessary to do so, and indeed by definition can't.

ivica
10-16-2014, 01:43 AM
Cool!

http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/SSASB7118.0609.pdf

I couldn't help but notice JBL showing what happens in a 2 pi versus 4 pi environment... I wonder where they came up with that load of malarkey.

..

Hi 4313B,

I only wonder, when JBL said 2*pi environment, do they suppose that the speakers are "ON THE FLOR" or on the "LARGE WALL".

Regards
ivica

4313B
10-16-2014, 02:04 AM
Hi 4313B,

I only wonder, when JBL said 2*pi environment, do they suppose that the speakers are "ON THE FLOR" or on the "LARGE WALL".

Regards
ivicaLast time I was there a woman was taking measurements of a subwoofer on the roof. There was also a couple of guys taking measurements of another subwoofer in the large anechoic chamber.

SEAWOLF97
10-16-2014, 08:45 AM
The Everest II has the reputation of being a very low distortion/very high fidelity system. I believe that was of primary consideration in its design, correct? Designed, like Stax headphones, to deliver every bit of bass that is on the recording, but no more.

That's the same reaction and summation that I got after buying the 250Ti's. Thought that their bass was light, but it was really the source material & amplification. It IS there when conditions call for it.

DynaMax
10-17-2014, 01:28 PM
Ducatista47 - you really don't get it, and I am very sure you don't have a pair of E2 in your living room, also I guess you never even had the opportunity to audition the E2 speakers?

This is not about club-bass, SPL, car audio boom-bas ..

This is about music. And many writers on this thread obviously don't care about music, but their tech-stuff.

What matters most to me are the music I listen to, and my speakers are the tool that transform an electric signal into a signal I can HEAR.

The music are in some way or another - a message from the artist.

I very seldom listen to gangsta or hip-hop, but it happens now and then as we actually have a few hip-hop artist in Denmark who (or their producers), succeeds very well in making fabulous sound landscapes. Especially one of my records have a very dark and dirty story, and to illustrate the darkness in the telling, a lot of very LF from Electric bass + synth are added to the tracks. LF not only to be heard but also felt. I am not asking for bud-kickers to place inside the sofa, and this has nothing to do with club-bass or gangsta style bass.

But the vey much LF info in the music is part of the message from the artist. I don't get that message without my EXtensions. E2 is a bright performer and without my EXtensions the presentation of this specific records are TOO bright. Or similar to a painter painting in color white on a white background. I don't get the whole picture before the painter starts painting his white colors on a dark background. I don't get the whole message from the artist without my EXtensions. Lucky me managed to build the EXtensions my self, but what about the many E2 owners out there who suffers from LF as I did? I can build them a system similar to mine, but it would be better if JBL offered a complete package (said before), with same exterior as the E2.

You mentioned something about STAX Electrostatic headphones sound quality? If thats the issue - forget the E2 system that takes advantages of pressure loading the listening room with the ups and down sides that follows this technique, and go for an open baffle bass system. That will give you an quality bass resolution on par with the STAX - but you will need a VERY large room for a VERY large system in order to equal SPL from E2. But if you got that opportunity, you end up above E2 LF reproduction by a far margin.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

Odd
10-17-2014, 01:48 PM
Du gir deg ikke.

Buy something you like, solves the whole problem.

DynaMax
10-18-2014, 01:49 PM
Hello ODD in Norway.

You don't get it either my friend:o:, it's not that simple..

I like my DD66000 very much, and I can't find anything that does what they do regarding effortless dynamics in MF and HF.

The case are the speakers are too bright - their tonality are wrong - as freestanding single-pair (unless you "shoehorn" them into a very little room and get the benefit from huge room gain); but they are brilliant when supported with high-quality LF EXtensions similar to the system I have developed.

Also note my pre-story; many potential clients has turned their back to the speakers in my store - as they expected more LF from this monster speaker system. When that happens too often I can't pay my bills.!

To Ducastati47 I wrote this is about music, about getting the message from he artist, and the speakers are the tool.

I will give you all an example, that somebody might like others might hate:

Rumours says that Michael Jacksons preferred front monitor system was 5 channel of the "Ocean Way HR1" monitor. (2 x 15" for LF 1 x 15" for MF - response to 18Hz),.

One of his signatures was bass, and he wanted bass to be a part of the story he was telling by his music. He wanted bass to be felt, and I guess he would love his fans to hear and feel his music the way he intended it to be.

Load the original (first release) 1991 (SONY/EPIC 465802 2) Michael Jackson "Dangourus" into your CD-player and start audition the DD66000 or 67000. This record contents a lot of LF, MJ's intension - or signature - in this specific album, in order to make it more "Dangorous" so to say. Especially track # 12 "Keep the faith", has a one-going about 40Hz synth. You can hardly hear this on the DD66000/67000...

Now ad a proper LF section to your E2 system (forget the tiny 12"..), and you will discover a music experience of another dimension - true to the artist intensions.

Music is entertainment, either live or reproduced via speakers like the E2. MJ was one the globes biggest music entertainers, best selling's recordings etc., and nobody in this thread can be taken serious if they respond to me like "Sorry - E2 are not for MJ type of music".

The E2 system is actually one of the very few system in the world that are capable of reproducing the dynamics from MJ's music, thats why they remain in my living room, but they definitely needs serious assistance from 45Hz and down in a large room like mine. Lucky me I managed to build this assistant EXteneions needed, but sad for those who can't.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

speakerdave
10-18-2014, 02:21 PM
Starting to feel like people are going to talk past each other forever here.

Ducatista47
10-18-2014, 04:05 PM
The pushback from my post told me I needed to read much more of this thread than I had before responding. Henrik, sorry to have made you repeat yourself for the fourth or more(th) time. Bass-Extension is an interesting concept, I agree. I will stand by my observation that the E2 family of speakers is a dubious choice if strong performance in the LF range is an important consideration, especially in large spaces. (EDIT: A True expert on these matters has observed this is not properly stated. Perhaps I should have said that the E II is not flat to 20Hz.)

If I unjustly implied you are a basshead (to me meaning one who wants to hear more bass than is on the source material), again I apologize. It is just that there are so many! At the site HeadFi, it is the majority. It is not a rare species on any website related to JBL floorstanders. That is called understatement.

I am curious why you are not employing room treatment to any extent. it should - this is not an opinion - be applied before any electronic or mechanical remedies are used. As every speaker has its inherent limitations. so does every listening space. Endless modifications to the speaker and processing will not change the room limitations, but treatment can. Since the speaker can never surpass the rooms capabilities, treatment must come first and will simplify and enhance the results of any remedial reproduction system work.

I also agree that no matter what music you listen to, judging the reproduction of it without frequent reference to live, unamplified music is hopelessly unhelpful. You would be trying to establish a baseline with no stable point of reference. It doesn't work.

You may be wondering who I am to venture such observations. Since you have told us about you and where you are coming from... Having been born in 1947, I have the first hand knowledge of an intently interested listener of music reproduction who has experience from the mid 1950s on. My father was an engineer at Shure Brothers. On several occasions I worked with John Cage. With the exception of my 4345s I have constructed my own speaker enclosures, with the goal of a better than stock performance through superior, meaning more appropriate materials when available and improvements in design where possible. I prefer my Les Paul, old heavy model, through my original Mesa Boogie (Dymo labels on the backplate, look it up) to the Marshall sound. I prefer the 200W EVM speaker to the JBL I replaced with it, and this after spending extra for the JBL from Randall himself. I do learn. I like and demand reasonable bass reproduction and know it when I hear it because of playing my 1965 Jazz Bass, and from thousands of hours of being ten feet or less from brilliant musicians playing amplified and unamplified instruments. Much of this with no PA.

And...what do I listen to? Let's take just the last few days. PJ Harvey, a lot to be frank. Coltrane's Interstellar Space. Julie Fowlis, Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, Karen Kasey, Karine Polwart. The Paybacks. The Murmurs. Un Hun Her. Bill Evans. The Breeders. The Coors. Berlin. Ralph Towner. Barbara Dennerlein. Richard Thompson. Great Northern. Glenn Gould and Paul Jacobs playing solo piano of Bach, Debussey and Arnold Schoenberg. Cowboy Junkies. Little Dragon. ZZ Top, Tejas and Rhythmeen. Suicide. Sun Ra. Fairport Convention. Sandy Denny solo. Robbie Robertson. Purity Ring. Memory Cassette. Sonic Youth. KT Tunstall. The Pretenders. Sam Rivers. Concrete Blonde, and Johnette Napolitano solo too. Cindy Combs. Cat Power. Brad Mehldau. Beth Orton. Albert Schweitzer. Dexter Gordon. And more...

Not much Classic Rock. Most of it, after much listening and time passing, is at the best no better to my ears than the best of the last twenty years.

While I am at this point often a been there and done that (and doing it) person, I am far, far from the most experienced and knowledgeable poster here. On the low end of it, actually. The only advice I would give to less experienced posters here, not you specifically, is to listen more and venture fewer opinions. I often take that advice myself, but apparently not often enough.

4313B
10-18-2014, 04:58 PM
the E2 family of speakers is a dubious choice if strong performance in the LF range is an important consideration, especially in large spaces.Wrong!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VrFV5r8cs0

I other words, a person has to know what they are doing. The Everest II has some of the best low frequency reproduction on the planet. Period.

G.T. is thoroughly familiar with the Everest II low frequency response versus the low frequency response of typical legacy JBL systems. If he'd wanted them to sound like a pair of bloated 4355's he would have asked J.M. to redesign the 1501AL's to behave in that fashion. The Everest II enclosure and tuning were designed along with the 1501AL transducers as a fully functional, well integrated system.

"Tell them to turn their ******* loudness buttons on..." :thnkfast:

Mr. Widget
10-18-2014, 06:30 PM
Starting to feel like people are going to talk past each other forever here.+1

I think there are more interesting things to do than responding to people who refuse to hear or be open to alternative views... especially when the facts contradict their views.


Widget

pos
10-19-2014, 12:20 AM
"Tell them to turn their ******* loudness buttons on..."
I think I found my new signature! :D

DynaMax
10-19-2014, 06:45 AM
Dear 4313B

I really like your sense of humor despite you are doing all you can stepping on me. But you can't insult me, and off course you and Widget respond to me like you are doing. IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Laws off nature.

Regarding your link to the cut from Clint Eastwood movie, I consider my self as Dirty Harry, and you and Widget sitting in the blue car - with the rest of Harman management :-) Don't get me wrong, it's all meant in a gentle manner, a respond in the same language as you are talking to me.

But I am serious; and here is why:

From Harman premium product lines i noticed that the JBL Array line got is own sub (Array 1500), the JBL Synthesis got it's S1S-EX (based on JBL 2242H). The Revel got it's Rhythm 2 (based on JBL 2269H) - picture below.

63427

Now just try to accept the value of some might wish a sub developed to match the K2 (could be a single 18") and the same for E2 (could be dual 18").

And until that happens a lot of potential K2 and E2 buyers continue to turn their back to the product, and instead place their money in - lets say a pair of MAGICO or TAD speakers, and money who actually was pointed to Harman goes to it's competitors. But you guys don't get it because you won't, and with blinded eyes you continues your drive in the blue car screaming and yelling with a measure at the E2 showing it's output capabilities at 20Hz…...

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

4313B
10-19-2014, 07:16 AM
Dear 4313B I really like your sense of humor despite you are doing all you can stepping on me.I just don't like misinformation. I'm not going to dig back through these Everest II threads to pick it all out now. Suffice it to say, I think a few people are lacking in some fundamentals.


Regarding your link to the cut from Clint Eastwood movie, I consider my self as Dirty Harry, and you and Widget sitting in the blue car - with the rest of Harman management :-) Don't get me wrong, it's all meant in a gentle manner, a respond in the same language as you are talking to me.It wasn't that deep. It is exactly what it is, a person has to know their limitations. Some things are beyond some people and that is why they hire someone else with expertise in a particular field area.



But I am serious; and here is why:

From Harman premium product lines i noticed that the JBL Array line got is own sub (Array 1500), the JBL Synthesis got it's S1S-EX (based on JBL 2242H). The Revel got it's Rhythm 2 (based on JBL 2269H) - picture below.

Now just try to accept the value of some might wish a sub developed to match the K2 (could be a single 18") and the same for E2 (could be dual 18").Again, if Harman could make money on it then they'd do it. Besides, when the Everest II is used in an HT setting Harman already has all kinds of subs available. Again, the Everest II doesn't need subwoofers for normal music playback. It just doesn't. And that goes back to the "knowing limitations" part.

And until that happens a lot of potential K2 and E2 buyers continue to turn their back to the product, and instead place their money in - lets say a pair of MAGICO or TAD speakers, and money who actually was pointed to Harman goes to it's competitors.I really don't think anyone cares.

But you guys don't get it because you won't, and with blinded eyes you continues your drive in the blue car screaming and yelling with a measure at the E2 showing it's output capabilities at 20Hz…... There is nothing "to get" here. That's the whole point.

The bottom line is that you simply do not understand the system design. What you need to do is replace those 1501AL's in your Everest II's with some W15GTi's and call it a day. You will need to tweak the passive networks a bit but since you are such an expert in all this you should be able to make that happen during your lunch hour.


One more time, the Everest II shares the same fundamental tuning frequency as many of the large format JBL systems of the past fifty some years. 4331, 4333, L300, L250, L220, L150, 250Ti, 4343, 4345, etc., they are all around 30 Hz. Where the Everest II differs is in the response curve, it is gently sloped to allow for greater integration in a typical room. For example, in a smaller room the Everest II would sound just right whereas most of the legacy systems would require a bit of EQ cut on the bottom end so as to not sound so "full". Now... some people have grown accustomed to that "full" sound so the Everest II might seem lean at first listening. It isn't, it's "normal". Think of the Everest II low frequency response akin to a Bessel response whereas the legacy JBL's were more along the lines of a quasi-Butterworth third order to Butterworth fourth order. Example: The ancient B380 and B460 subwoofers were quasi-Butterworth third order systems without the BX-63 and quasi-Butterworth fifth order systems with the BX-63 (26 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 2 (6 dB boost @ 26 kHz))

Reference the now ancient 5234A:

a Flat frequency response
b 20 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.707 (Butterworth)
c 20 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 2 (6 dB boost @ 20 kHz)
d 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.54
e 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.84
f 30 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q= 2 (6 dB boost @ 30 Hz)
g 40 Hz high pass filter 12 dB/octave slope, Q = 0.707 (Butterworth)
h 40 Hz high pass filter, 12 dB/octave slope, Q= 2 (6 dB boost @ 40 Hz)


Note the bump filters. In a larger room the Everest II might benefit from selection f. No big spooky mystery here. JBL does the exact same thing with the brand new M2 and the Crown. In the case of the M2 though the Crown is set to +4.7 dB at 22.5 Hz. Of course the Crown sounds light years better than the now ancient 5234A. The Crown is the better bet on so many levels it isn't even worth discussing. Even the "cheap" $700 Crown with the DSP functions. As G.T. has said numerous times now "Add in a few dB of boost around system resonance as desired." It is that ******* simple. :)

4313B
10-19-2014, 07:50 AM
I think I found my new signature! :DYeah... it's like talking to a herd of cats...

Doc Mark
10-19-2014, 08:25 AM
Good Morning, All,

4313B, I totally understand what you are saying, and again, I have to reiterate that some folks, God Bless 'em, just don't want to hear the actual answer, and will not be satisfied until the LH forum, as a whole, decides to denigrate the original design of the DD66000. That, of course, is not going to happen, and for and brilliant reason that it is simply not true!! So, we have gone around and around, and in and out, and have still not "convinced" those who started down this path that their assertions are incorrect. You, and a few others, have done a stellar job in attempting to educate us all on this topic, but the old adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink", comes to mind. All the education in the world is never going to change the fact that, when someone is trying to prove an incorrect assertion, they will never "understand" the actual answers, or even if they understand them, they will never be willing to accept them.

Finally, I love the look of Henrik's "bass extension" setup, and for him, and others who desire such an animal, I say, go for it! But, for such folks, please don't try to kick dirt on a stellar design, like the DD66000, just because it doesn't do what YOU want it do, and in the way you want it done. Each of us has our individual likes and dislikes, and sometimes we try to get a certain sound out of a system that was not designed to offer it. 4313B has offered simply, and workable solutions to you getting what you want out of this wonderful system, without all the fuss and muss. You, Henrik, have designed and built something that works for you, and it looks lovely and works great, for your needs. I suggest that others, who want that same "solution", add similar "bass extensions" to their own systems, and call it a done deal. For me, I'd LOVE to own and enjoy a DD66000 system, but that will never happen, as we simply cannot afford it! We love our L300's, and are happy as clams in experimenting with a 4-way JBL system, and now some L250's. Some might think that, even the L300's might be a bit bass heavy in our listening room. Not me. As a drummer, I like having solid and tight bass in the music I enjoy, WHEN the music calls for it, and to my ears, the L300's give me just that, and add nothing more. But, you, and maybe others, still might not like the way my L300's sound in our listening environment. That's just as it should be! I think that your discontent with the supposed lack of LF by the DD66000 is an individual perception, and you have dealt with it in a way that works for you. Others who feel as you do can do the same, if they wish. But, the simply fact remains that the DD66000 system has garnered glowing reviews and reports from all over the world, and the design does not need to be changed, in any way. Just my thoughts on this, and I thank 4313B, Widget, and others for trying to accomplish the impossible, by changing someone's mind, with the facts. Well done, Gentlemen!! Henrik, well done on your "solution", and I'm very happy that it works for you! However, if you get tired of having to deal with all that, simply pack up your DD66000, and send it over to me, minus the "bass extension"!! I will happily take it off your hands, and give it a loving and appreciative home here in our mountains!! ;) :D Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

ivica
10-20-2014, 02:22 AM
..... Music is entertainment, either live or reproduced via speakers like the E2. MJ was one the globes biggest music entertainers, best selling's recordings etc., and nobody in this thread can be taken serious if they respond to me like "Sorry - E2 are not for MJ type of music". The E2 system is actually one of the very few system in the world that are capable of reproducing the dynamics from MJ's music, thats why they remain in my living room, but they definitely needs serious assistance from 45Hz and down in a large room like mine. Lucky me I managed to build this assistant EXteneions needed, but sad for those who can't. Kind regards Henrik, DynaMax

Hi DynaMax,

I can agree with You that DD66k would need some bass extension ( in 2pi==half space, or 4pi==open space) from the mentioned 30~50 Hz, that can be seen from the JBL published data. So applying a proper "ultra low" bass would improve that, even I am sure that appropriated filter section that would be applied (passive) would not be easy to realize. ( I have expected that a pair of DD66k have been intended to be used with the single stereo amp). from the technical data presented by JBL it seems that 2269 driver(s) would be good candidate as it has the lowest 2nd and 3rd distortion factor in the mentioned region ( under 50Hz) from all of the JBL drivers. The problem can be it sensitivity vs DD66k sensitivity.

But I have not seen your comment on my post "104" regards Ivica

pos
10-20-2014, 03:11 AM
Interesting comparison, thanks Ivica.
Where did you get those curves from?

The 2269H distortion curves are quite close to the 1501AL-1 ones:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33556-1501al-1&p=339115&viewfull=1#post339115

Not bad for a 15" :)

ivica
10-20-2014, 03:25 AM
Interesting comparison, thanks Ivica. Where did you get those curves from? The 2269H distortion curves are quite close to the 1501AL-1 ones: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33556-1501al-1&p=339115&viewfull=1#post339115 Not bad for a 15" :)

Hi POS,
All that data are from the JBL : "JBL_-_Tech_Note_Vol_1_No_34_Differential_Drive_for_VerT ec_Subwoofer_Applications"
As I have remembered, 1501AL-1 is under-hung so, its VC is always in the magnetic field, so it would be expected to produce low THD.
It seems to me, that 1501AL-1 is even better then 2265 ( 15-inch dual-differential Ne-Driver) up to 500Hz.

regards
ivica

baldrick
10-20-2014, 03:27 AM
2258h:
63435

Aaron
10-20-2014, 11:30 AM
Below around 80 or 90Hz I'm deaf in one ear (all frequencies above that my ears are equal) so things actually still sound clear to me with significant bass boost.
I bi-amp my L96s & SUB1500s with a DBX223 at 45Hz and a Behringer feedback destroyer pro in line the LF amp for room mode corrections. The in room response measures six DB higher than the L96s from 40 to 10Hz and I like it a lot...I also accept that no one else will like it.

If your ears are effed like mine, you might wanna try something like this if you get the chance.

DynaMax
10-22-2014, 03:35 PM
To Ducatista47

Sorry for my late reply to your questions.

I don't think room treatment (by canceling standing waves.?) will help me adding more LF-bass. Except if i decided to bring in some concrete walls in the middle of my very large listening room, in order to reduce the size of the room = adding more standing waves/room gain :). As mentioned earlier my room are very big (total 200m2 (2200sq-feet?) and listening area are 50% = 8 x 14 meter (26 x 46 feet?) + many openings (glass windows + doors) around the area. Also the very heavy wooden floor in the listening area you can see at my pictures (made of 3" x 12" mahogany bolted to a steel construction at a total of 9000 kilo) are actually elevated 80cm (31 inches) from the concrete foundation floor, and I guess the room in between the concrete and the heavy wood floor acts like a bass absorber rather than generating bass as if the E2 speakers was positioned directly at the concrete floor. As told in a reply to Mr. Widget my room are very close to anechoic chamber.. The positive thing about that is a very thight bass.

My listening position are far from the middle of the large room (actually just 10 feet away from the speakers with 30 feet to the wall/ceiling behind me). The E2's are installed with 16-17 feet from tweeter to tweeter and toe-in are about 20 or 30 degrees. This listening position gives me a huge soundstage, as well as great imaging/depth in soundstage. Note: since nothing (equipment racks, television, big furniture etc.) are mugged-up in between the speakers I have a pretty "clean" soundstage.

My benefits from the large room are freedom from rear wall bass gain and freedom from MF+HF listening fatigue as typical when listening position are right next to a wall, but greater MF+HF ambience (kind of natural surround sound) as distance to rear wall, rear-side wall, rear ceiling, are 8-10 meters (26-33 feet). Also note (IMPORTANT) my ceiling are opposite V-shape (angled 20 degree), with highest point (15 feet from concrete floor) in the middle of the 46 feed "deep" listening area. This = no standing wave between floor and ceiling add typical for rooms with parallel floor/ceiling. My own concert hall..

Conclusion: I have so many benefits from the design of my room in order to make sound reproduction close to live performance, and the MF-HF capabilities (qualities) from the E2 is obvious for for every body who has auditioned my "sound", but the only downside are, that a room this size and the chosen positioning of the speakers are amplifying the "weakness" of the E2 (45Hz roll-off). This is why I am calling for LF supplement*, and ended up doing my EXtensions :)

*Read more in the following post to Ivica

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

DynaMax
10-22-2014, 05:31 PM
Dear Ivica.

Sorry I forgot to reply to your post #104.

Please note I am - opposite you - a non-educated sales person.. I am NOT an electronic or an acoustic engineer, or even not an skilled speaker designer + builder. All I am doing is based on "common sense" thinking, and I picked-up just a little knowledge (experience) here and there during the last two decades by reading and listening. When I wan't something done such as developing the electronic controllers for my "EX", I pay an engineer to do it, based on my notes from listening test and simple measuring.. Off course this has a been heavy and time consuming job to me, but since there are no "ready to buy LF solution" for the E2, I did the best I could. I should really love to audition a system similar to mine but fine-tuned by GT and his team.. wow!

As you can read in my above post, my large listening room calls for LF extension. When designing my system I used an Digital "Voicing" Eq from Accuphase (DG-38), and the read out at the display told me 30Hz from DD66000 in my listening position and 10-12 different mic. positions on and off-axis was minus 6-9 dB from linear (zero), and to the sound I preferred minus 12-15dB.

My goal was flat response to 30Hz but compared to preferred sound I ended up needing additional 6-9dB from 40 down to 30Hz on top of "flat" before getting satisfied..? Hopefully you know what I mean. Measuring looks crazy (loudness on..), but it sounds "right". This is why I am talking about the non linearity of human hearing must be the reason to my wish for additional 6-9dB gain at 30-40Hz. I know human hearing flattens out when going loud.. but I can't express my self in this discussion due to my limited english langue skills. Sorry.

Regarding your comments about the impossibility into design and build a speaker thats linear to 20Hz, using 18" LF + a very low cross over point by passive components, some kind of adjustment will be needed, etc; you are right.

Also I will make Widget and 4313B happy by confirming one important thing; At some music (natural instrumentation), I'll never (or very very seldom) need my LF-EXtensions. But at much electronic music I can't live without LF Extension + boost.

And the core thing in construction my system is not building the big boxes with the dual 18" pr. channel, but developing the "brains" - the dual mono 3 way electronic crossovers/eq's I got designed especially to my system.

They are very very important since music material changes from one record to another = flexibility are needed. I designed an 3-option solution:

E2 full-range with EXtension's "Off", a 45 and a 60Hz cross-over point. (24/24dB/octave).

Further more a 4-position (0,3,6,9dB) boost option at 28Hz (Fs of my 18" woofers), with a narrow Q (0,7), since I don't want the "loudness" type of sound from lets say a Q 2.0

Finally I got a 0 to +6dB variable volume at LF out-put (but NO volumes/attenuator at MF + HF out in order to avoid this in signal chain).

Via the Accuphase DG-38 I measured a notch from 700 to 800Hz, and decided to move cross-over point from 750 to 800Hz in order to boost the Al1501-1 +2dB safely against the 4" Be. I changed slopes (the passive internal filter setting = 12/18dB at 750Hz) to 800Hz 24/24dB to further protection of the 4" Be as I am adding a 1+2 dB boost option from 700-800Hz as compensation to the AL1501-1

Via the Accuphase I also measured an 1- 1,5 dB peak at around 5kHz and added a 1-2dB notch-option at 5kHz, and finally a 3-6dB boost option at 20kHz as i measured a 3-6dB drop from the 1" Be vs. the 4" Be. (All of those EQ's can be passed through).

I think it is very obvious that any LF system intended for use with the E2 is some kind based on a variable electronic crossover + EQ controller in order to adjust LF to the specific listening room, and in my particular situation it was also obvious to go all-in by making a 3 way crossover as I noticed the E2 benefits a lot when upgrading from passive to electronic crossing over between 15" and 4".

Below pictures of my system "brains" (prototypes in raw MDF box). They are fully discrete designs (no "IC", no OP-amp), pure class A.

2269H: It is no secret thats my dream woofer! But the local JBL pro distributer is asking $2200/each spare part price = my total driver cost ? $8800…... Pretty insane! US JBL PRO-retailer Northern Sound and Light made me an offer at ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box. Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each. Sponsor wanted :), or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

63456
63457

4313B
10-22-2014, 06:09 PM
Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each.$1,064 each.

Ian Mackenzie
10-23-2014, 01:41 AM
Nice room!

Wow, a war of words not seen for a while..LOL

It might be useful to look at the reverb time of your large room with suitable measurement equipment.

I recall 30- years when I was hiring out my 4343 clones they had awesome bass in some rooms but was bass shy in others.

So I used additional 2235 bins to fill the bass void bi amped with about 1.6 Kw.

I then heard the 4343 in a large acoustic theater used for live concerts at a local university.

No additional woofers needed here and the reproduction was perfectly balanced without any Eq.

ivica
10-23-2014, 05:18 AM
Dear Ivica.

Sorry I forgot to reply to your post #104.

Please note I am - opposite you - a non-educated sales person.. I am NOT an electronic or an acoustic engineer, or even not an skilled speaker designer + builder. All I am doing is based on "common sense" thinking, and I picked-up just a little knowledge (experience) here and there during the last two decades by reading and listening. When I wan't something done such as developing the electronic controllers for my "EX", I pay an engineer to do it, based on my notes from listening test and simple measuring.. Off course this has a been heavy and time consuming job to me, but since there are no "ready to buy LF solution" for the E2, I did the best I could. I should really love to audition a system similar to mine but fine-tuned by GT and his team.. wow!

As you can read in my above post, my large listening room calls for LF extension. When designing my system I used an Digital "Voicing" Eq from Accuphase (DG-38), and the read out at the display told me 30Hz from DD66000 in my listening position and 10-12 different mic. positions on and off-axis was minus 6-9 dB from linear (zero), and to the sound I preferred minus 12-15dB.

My goal was flat response to 30Hz but compared to preferred sound I ended up needing additional 6-9dB from 40 down to 30Hz on top of "flat" before getting satisfied..? Hopefully you know what I mean. Measuring looks crazy (loudness on..), but it sounds "right". This is why I am talking about the non linearity of human hearing must be the reason to my wish for additional 6-9dB gain at 30-40Hz. I know human hearing flattens out when going loud.. but I can't express my self in this discussion due to my limited english langue skills. Sorry.

Regarding your comments about the impossibility into design and build a speaker thats linear to 20Hz, using 18" LF + a very low cross over point by passive components, some kind of adjustment will be needed, etc; you are right.

Also I will make Widget and 4313B happy by confirming one important thing; At some music (natural instrumentation), I'll never (or very very seldom) need my LF-EXtensions. But at much electronic music I can't live without LF Extension + boost.

And the core thing in construction my system is not building the big boxes with the dual 18" pr. channel, but developing the "brains" - the dual mono 3 way electronic crossovers/eq's I got designed especially to my system.

They are very very important since music material changes from one record to another = flexibility are needed. I designed an 3-option solution:

E2 full-range with EXtension's "Off", a 45 and a 60Hz cross-over point. (24/24dB/octave).

Further more a 4-position (0,3,6,9dB) boost option at 28Hz (Fs of my 18" woofers), with a narrow Q (0,7), since I don't want the "loudness" type of sound from lets say a Q 2.0

Finally I got a 0 to +6dB variable volume at LF out-put (but NO volumes/attenuator at MF + HF out in order to avoid this in signal chain).

Via the Accuphase DG-38 I measured a notch from 700 to 800Hz, and decided to move cross-over point from 750 to 800Hz in order to boost the Al1501-1 +2dB safely against the 4" Be. I changed slopes (the passive internal filter setting = 12/18dB at 750Hz) to 800Hz 24/24dB to further protection of the 4" Be as I am adding a 1+2 dB boost option from 700-800Hz as compensation to the AL1501-1

Via the Accuphase I also measured an 1- 1,5 dB peak at around 5kHz and added a 1-2dB notch-option at 5kHz, and finally a 3-6dB boost option at 20kHz as i measured a 3-6dB drop from the 1" Be vs. the 4" Be. (All of those EQ's can be passed through).

I think it is very obvious that any LF system intended for use with the E2 is some kind based on a variable electronic crossover + EQ controller in order to adjust LF to the specific listening room, and in my particular situation it was also obvious to go all-in by making a 3 way crossover as I noticed the E2 benefits a lot when upgrading from passive to electronic crossing over between 15" and 4".


2269H: It is no secret thats my dream woofer! But the local JBL pro distributer is asking $2200/each spare part price = my total driver cost ? $8800…... Pretty insane! US JBL PRO-retailer Northern Sound and Light made me an offer at ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box. Thats telling me the drivers shouldn't cost more than 1000-1200$/each. Sponsor wanted :), or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)



Hi DynaMax,

May thanks for more technical details about your DD66k EQ supported by 4x18" bass drivers.
I have understood that DD66k in your rooms 'behaves' as if in the 'open space' placed on the ground (usual called 2pi).

As our member 4313B said, DD66k were tuned on about 34 Hz (applying TWO vents),
have You tried to close one of the vents on the DD66k ( some tricks applied to 4343),
and (in such way reducing box resonant frequency to about 24.5Hz)
have tried to EQ the speaker response using almost the same bass boost around 28Hz.
May be in that way using EQ for the 'poor DD66k owner' can give some 'more air'.

May be some other solutions can be done using two amplifier for each of the bass drivers, so can
'pump' more power to the "helper bass driver" ( the one that has larger coils in its networks).
All of my 'ideas" is based to protect DD66k owner from another 10k+ investments.

But as You have said possible JBL solution to upgrade Dd66k can be "..ASB-7128 (dual 2269H) for $3350/box.,
so additionaly 6,700 $ ....ONLY.." what would be about 10% of the DD66k initial price

regards
Ivica

pos
10-23-2014, 09:36 AM
Forget about the 2269H! Ditch those tiny 15" and put a 24" PD2450 woofer in there! :D

63460

DynaMax
10-23-2014, 10:00 AM
$1,064 each.

Where can I place order at 4 units?

Kind reagrds

Henrik, DynaMax

DynaMax
10-23-2014, 10:19 AM
Wow, a war of words not seen for a while..LOL

It might be useful to look at the reverb time of your large room with suitable measurement equipment.

I recall 30- years when I was hiring out my 4343 clones they had awesome bass in some rooms but was bass shy in others.

So I used additional 2235 bins to fill the bass void bi amped with about 1.6 Kw.

I then heard the 4343 in a large acoustic theater used for live concerts at a local university.

No additional woofers needed here and the reproduction was perfectly balanced without any Eq.

I beliwe you.

But this is not about getting balanced sound from DD66000, as that is pretty easy to obtain by EQ'ing the DD66000.

This is about getting enough SPL from 50Hz down to 30Hz in very large rooms.

The only solution are additional LF-drivers = more surface = moving more air.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

ivica
10-23-2014, 11:20 AM
Forget about the 2269H! Ditch those tiny 15" and put a 24" PD2450 woofer in there! :D

63460

Hmmmm, such 24inch, up to 800Hz ???
2269 is 18inch , isn't it?
regards
ivica

DynaMax
10-23-2014, 12:12 PM
$1,064 each.

Hi 4313B

If you prefer to answer my question about were to buy the 2269H at US$1.064 each, please send me an e-mail.

[email protected]

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

1audiohack
10-23-2014, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE=DynaMax;367740]Dear Ivica.,,, or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax[QUOTE]


I had to laugh when John at AE claimed his 18's were 2242 killers.

I measured them compared to 2242's and the AE's have nearly identical frequency response but are 5.5dB down in efficiency, across the entire usable pass band. You would need a lot of amp to make that up.

Two new 2242's and two new AE18's, same box, same amp, same mic, same night. I have the measurements around here somewhere. I took an immediate pass.

Barry.

DynaMax
10-24-2014, 12:55 AM
[QUOTE=DynaMax;367740]Dear Ivica.,,, or perhaps I go for the AE (Acoustic Elegance) TD18H+ ($450) as they have gained a pretty nice reputation.

Kind regards

Henrik, DynaMax[QUOTE]


I had to laugh when John at AE claimed his 18's were 2242 killers.

I measured them compared to 2242's and the AE's have nearly identical frequency response but are 5.5dB down in efficiency, across the entire usable pass band. You would need a lot of amp to make that up.

Two new 2242's and two new AE18's, same box, same amp, same mic, same night. I have the measurements around here somewhere. I took an immediate pass.

Barry.


Dear Barry

Well, If you are right, thats sad, but what about distortion? At some forums the AE are claimed to deliver a more clean sound.

Besides that, price at the 2242 are double up the AE, and the difference will almost pay the amp.

If budget high-power are wanted, some Class-D designs are very affordable, but I'm not convinced about Class-D yet..

But from www.emotiva.com (http://www.emotiva.com) I can have 500/1000watts (8/4 Ohm) mono block amp at 1K $, so whats the big deal about?

Anyway I just got a link to an supplier of 2269H who offers reasonable prices from 4313B, and thats gonna be my first try.

Regarding AE, I am mostly interested in their Dipole woofers for an very large Open baffle full-range system I have in mind (4 x 18" pr. channel..), but thats an complete different story.

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

pos
10-24-2014, 01:55 AM
Hmmmm, such 24inch, up to 800Hz ???
2269 is 18inch , isn't it?
regards
ivica

Well, that was a joke :D

pos
10-24-2014, 02:02 AM
DynaMax, take a look at the BMS 18N862:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=18n862_overview

The older version was tested by Vance Dickason in Voice Coil some years ago and it was impressive in most regards: very low distortion and excursion noise, modern motor construction with all the bells and whistles, and good to the low mid.

It also appears in the Data-Bass here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51
and with a lot of measurements in a small vented enclosure here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=94&mset=101
And here you can see how it compares to a 4645c (2242H): http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=5&type=0&sort=desc&mfr=-1
(the tuning is different though...)

DynaMax
10-24-2014, 08:21 AM
DynaMax, take a look at the BMS 18N862:
http://www.bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=18n862_overview

The older version was tested by Vance Dickason in Voice Coil some years ago and it was impressive in most regards: very low distortion and excursion noise, modern motor construction with all the bells and whistles, and good to the low mid.

It also appear in Data-Bass here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=driver&id=51
and with a lot of measurements in a small vented enclosure here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=94&mset=101
And here you can see how it compares to a 4645c (2242H) here: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=systems&col=5&type=0&sort=desc&mfr=-1
(the tuning is different though...)

Dear POS

Very interesting; unfortunately the 2269H is not in the Data-bass..?

Anyway - I just ordered 4 x 2269H from an US retailer.. Thats gonna be tried out, despite the BMS are much cheaper.

This is also about my emotions; - I am a passionated JBL freak - and I think a real "Everest EX" must have Top-Quality JBL drivers installed, not my EVX or the BMS..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

Odd
10-24-2014, 08:46 AM
Here is (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22679-2269h) TS parameters for 2269H (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22679-2269h)

ivica
10-29-2014, 02:08 AM
Dear POS

Very interesting; unfortunately the 2269H is not in the Data-bass..?

Anyway - I just ordered 4 x 2269H from an US retailer.. Thats gonna be tried out, despite the BMS are much cheaper.

This is also about my emotions; - I am a passionated JBL freak - and I think a real "Everest EX" must have Top-Quality JBL drivers installed, not my EVX or the BMS..

Kind regards
Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk (http://www.dynamax.dk)

Hi DynaMax,

May be the data from the:
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_5628_v7.pdf

Fs about 26~28 Hz can help in Your project.

Regards
ivica

DynaMax
10-30-2014, 05:22 AM
Hi DynaMax,

May be the data from the:
http://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/JBL_5628_v7.pdf

Fs about 26~28 Hz can help in Your project.

Regards
ivica

Hey Ivica

Thats new to me? Why didn't I see this earlier ?.. aha, it is brand new stuff; It has just been introduced by october 2014.
I wonder what its price gonna be.
Enclosure size 506 liters. Then tell me the dimension of the port to hit that tune. Thank you so much.

Henrik

ivica
10-30-2014, 07:34 AM
Hey Ivica

That's new to me? Why didn't I see this earlier ?.. aha, it is brand new stuff; It has just been introduced by October 2014.
I wonder what its price gonna be.
Enclosure size 506 liters. Then tell me the dimension of the port to hit that tune. Thank you so much.

Henrik

Hi DynaMax,

Using BB6pro SW with 2 drivers in the box of Vb=506 Lit, and tuned Fb=27Hz, with rectangular port 20x35cm expected length= 31.1cm,
If applied 50Veff ( about 625W), about 130dB/1m would be expectable, max.air vent-speed about 10.6m/s around 23Hz, with almost 6dB
headroom for EQ from that frequency (and up), in Xmax, and Pmax, in order to compensate FR linearity at low frequency.

So using two boxes you can produce over 130dB/1m (attached figure about +6dB added to single box-repose),
from 23Hz and up, but the amp has to be minimum 2 x 2400W, if You decide to EQ about +6dB...
So, You can reproduce almost jet engine sound ( 140dB at about 33m distance) in your listening room. I believe that a kind of room effect would help too.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

so, may be DD66k would become limitation factor, as their power rating of only 500W, ( using its efficiency of 96dB/1W/1m) can
deliver only 123 dB/1m/500W, but as You prefer a little more lower bass region, then such system can technically satisfy your needs.


regards
ivica

lpd
10-30-2014, 07:12 PM
I guess it depends on your room to some extent but mostly the music you listen to. For '70s rock or vintage Jazz... there is no bass below about 40Hz and a sub isn't a consideration... however there are numerous classical recordings and modern pieces of music with very deep bass. The DD66000 as designed does not reproduce subterranean bass. It simply wasn't designed to do it. I don't often miss that, in fact if I play "Thank You" from Boz Scaggs' Dig Album the room pressurizes from the "deep" bass. You would say adding a sub is ridiculous, however I have a number of tracks that have very low frequency content... these would benefit from a true sub.

Back to the original poster. I have considered this myself. I would go the 1500 Array or the Revel Rhythm2 route. I definitely would not use a 2242. I have build subs with them... I don't think the have the extension or refinement necessary. I actually bought a Revel 12" baby brother to the Rhythm2 that I'll be trying out. In my room I don't have space to hide the 1500 Array or the massive Rhythem2 sub. As long as SPLs are reasonable the small 12" sub should be fine. As suggested by Mr. BWM... the need is minimal. I will give it a whirl, but I haven't had time to hook it up and balance it into my system.


Widget

Thanks To You certainly has very low content for testing sub bass!!! Great album.

hjames
10-31-2014, 04:36 AM
Thanks To You certainly has very low content for testing sub bass!!! Great album.

Yes, when the Harman Mobil listening truck travelled to our area a few years back and demoed Mark levinson Amps and revell speakers,
Boz's "Thanks to You" from DIG was one of the tracks they used, as was "Walking on Sacred Ground" from Janis Ian's Breaking Silence album.

svollmer
10-31-2014, 07:15 AM
Yes, when the Harman Mobil listening truck travelled to our area a few years back and demoed Mark levinson Amps and revell speakers,
Boz's "Thanks to You" from DIG was one of the tracks they used, as was "Walking on Sacred Ground" from Janis Ian's Breaking Silence album.

I'll second (or third!) Thanks to You from Boz. It rattles the dishes in the kitchen above my listening room and shakes the furniture around like an earthquake. :applaud:

Doc Mark
10-31-2014, 08:35 AM
Morning, All,

Yes, the Boz Scaggs "Dig" album is a fine one to hear some deep digital bass! Thanks to Heather for recommending it, a few years ago, and I have to say, we listen to it quite often, and always marvel at the great talent that is highlights on that album, from musicians, and the recording studio staff!! Excellent stuff! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

hjames
10-31-2014, 08:59 AM
Thanks for the kudos, but truth be told, I think the original recommend for Dig came from Zilch (god rest his soul, and his bass) ...
I've just been re-advocating ever since ... its amazing ...


Morning, All,

Yes, the Boz Scaggs "Dig" album is a fine one to hear some deep digital bass! Thanks to Heather for recommending it, a few years ago, and I have to say, we listen to it quite often, and always marvel at the great talent that is highlights on that album, from musicians, and the recording studio staff!! Excellent stuff! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

Doc Mark
10-31-2014, 10:34 AM
Morning, Heather,

I had no idea that the original suggestion came from Zilch. So, I thank him, in absentia, and you, too! I very much miss having him here at LH, but know that someplace up there, he's probably looking down and smiling at our comments, and also our efforts to enjoy "real" bass on JBL systems!! ;) :D May he rest in peace! Take care, and God Bless!

Every Good Wish,
Doc

audiomagnate
10-31-2014, 09:28 PM
If you're not afraid of a little structural damage, you can try the 24/176.4 version of Liszt/Prelude on B-A-C-H from Reference Recordings. This little ditty made me realize that a single BGW 602B wasn't near enough for my sub swarm. BTW, I take absolutely no responsibility for any system damage or involuntary bowel movements this cut may cause.

lpd
10-31-2014, 10:11 PM
If you're not afraid of a little structural damage, you can try the 24/176.4 version of Liszt/Prelude on B-A-C-H from Reference Recordings. This little ditty made me realize that a single BGW 602B wasn't near enough for my sub swarm. BTW, I take absolutely no responsibility for any system damage or involuntary bowel movements this cut may cause.

I will have to try that recording on my Waveform Mach speakers. This cabinet builder really knew how to build a cab for a JBL 2235.

DynaMax
11-01-2014, 01:35 PM
Hi DynaMax,

Using BB6pro SW with 2 drivers in the box of Vb=506 Lit, and tuned Fb=27Hz, with rectangular port 20x35cm expected length= 31.1cm,
If applied 50Veff ( about 625W), about 130dB/1m would be expectable, max.air vent-speed about 10.6m/s around 23Hz, with almost 6dB
headroom for EQ from that frequency (and up), in Xmax, and Pmax, in order to compensate FR linearity at low frequency.

So using two boxes you can produce over 130dB/1m (attached figure about +6dB added to single box-repose),
from 23Hz and up, but the amp has to be minimum 2 x 2400W, if You decide to EQ about +6dB...
So, You can reproduce almost jet engine sound ( 140dB at about 33m distance) in your listening room. I believe that a kind of room effect would help too.

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

so, may be DD66k would become limitation factor, as their power rating of only 500W, ( using its efficiency of 96dB/1W/1m) can
deliver only 123 dB/1m/500W, but as You prefer a little more lower bass region, then such system can technically satisfy your needs.


regards
ivica

Hi Ivica

Thnak you so much. I will let you know when the system has been upgraded to the 2269H. 4 units has been ordered. Next thing are to find the 2 x 2400 watt power amps :bouncy:

I guess the recommended 2400watts are 4 Ohm (2 x 2269H i parallel = 4 Ohm), and I am considering 2 x the EMOTIVA XPR 1 mono-block

Henrik, DynaMax
www.dynamax.dk

husq2100
07-09-2016, 03:19 AM
I just read this thread looking for SUB info in general. Most of it made my head hurt. I have no idea on all the tech stuff. One thing that I found interesting is JBLPro now offer a sub to compliment the M2. Im sure that all that means is there are SOME instances where a person may want that option?

http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/recording-broadcast/sub18#.V4DQJ1fkv8s

Chas
07-10-2016, 05:07 AM
Wow, that SUB 18 is awesome. Wonder how much they are?

BMWCCA
07-10-2016, 05:37 AM
Wow, that SUB 18 is awesome. Wonder how much they are?
$3250 at B&H