Modding suggestion for JBL L120Ti? What replacement tweeter would you suggest?

[Kreshna]

It's a long story. I was looking for 4311 to replace my late dad's missing speakers (they were stolen), but I cannot find any in my area. However, I was recently offered either a pair of JBL 4315 or JBL L120Ti by a used audio equipment store. The 4315 was offered for US $1,500 and it has lots of cosmetic defects (full story here (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34592-Used-JBL-4311-with-cosmetic-flaws-offered-for-US-1-500-Is-it-worth-it&p=350179&viewfull=1#post350179).)

I don't know if the 4315 is worth buying, but the L120Ti is plenty cheap, and it could be an interesting alternative for me to listen while I am waiting for the 4311 (the store owner promised me that he would instantly notified me if he found a pair of 4311, and he assured me that 4311s are not very hard to find since the model was very popular in my country during its day).

I have tested the L120Ti. Of course the sound doesn't match the "west coast perfection" of the 4311 (at least that what I believe to be perfect, since I grew up with that sound), however, the bass is very good. I tested it with Chicane's Halcyon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5VJv41ssro), and the bass is strong and thumpy. In fact, it is stronger than that of JBL 4315 I also tested on the store.

(of course, people may argue that the 4315's weaker bass is actually a more accurate reproduction of what the studio intended, but I just love bass.)

Since the L120Ti is offered plenty cheap, I probably better buy it for "temporary enjoyment" while waiting for the store owner to find the 4311 I want. After all, I like the bass.

What really bothers me is the treble. It is outright ugly, and when you listen it from another room, it sounds "tch tch tch" like el-cheapo Sony speakers (4311's treble doesn't sound that way when listened from another room), so if I buy the thing, I think I better replace the tweeters. Probably I just hate titanium tweeters.

Of course, changing the tweeters would change the L120Ti sound characteristics, but I don't really care as long as it suits my taste.

So what tweeter replacement would you suggest? What if I use the 4311's tweeters? They are quite plenty on ebay. Or do you have better ideas?

Many thanks,

[BMWCCA]

There shouldn't be anything wrong with the L120Ti or its tweeter if everything is working as designed. It's an excellent speaker and among the best of the 12-inch three-way JBLs. What you're experiencing could very well be the deficiencies in the rest of your system in particular your source or source material. The L120Ti is most likely being very faithful to what it's being fed and their sound would be considered far superior to the 4311 by nearly every objective judge.

Maybe it's time to re-tune your ears?

Your term "west coast perfection" is laughable. I grew up with it, too, but never enjoyed it, most likely because I had "real" JBLs in the house when the 4311/L100 first came out.

Cheers! :cheers:

[Kreshna]

More accurate, maybe. But "superior" is a subjective term. 4311 and similar generation JBLs are probably less accurate (in fact, the frequency response curve shown in the manual is not really flat). But I just like the sound. And turns out I'm not alone (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-04-20/business/0290190161_1_jbl-titanium-tweeters).

The 120Ti radically departs from traditional JBL sound. The midrange is somewhat withdrawn and muted, and voices tend to sound a bit distant, and at times even a bit hollow. The speakers reproduce a wide frequency range, but not an entirely even one. As mentioned, there's plenty of bass, but some of it is boomy mid-bass and not deep natural bass. This effect may result from placement and room acoustics. Stereo imaging, the re-creation of ''natural vocal and instrumental placement and the illusion of depth,'' seems sorely lacking.

[hjames]

Maybe someone had swapped out the rare and expensive original 044ti tweeters in the L 120TI with some of the cheaper 035TIA tweeters that came in lesser models?
The mounting is a little different, but folks have mismatched drivers before.


It's a long story. I was looking for 4311 to replace my late dad's missing speakers (they were stolen), but I cannot find any in my area. However, I was recently offered either a pair of JBL 4315 or JBL L120Ti by a used audio equipment store. The 4315 was offered for US $1,500 and it has lots of cosmetic defects (full story here (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34592-Used-JBL-4311-with-cosmetic-flaws-offered-for-US-1-500-Is-it-worth-it&p=350179&viewfull=1#post350179).)

I don't know if the 4315 is worth buying, but the L120Ti is plenty cheap, and it could be an interesting alternative for me to listen while I am waiting for the 4311 (the store owner promised me that he would instantly notified me if he found a pair of 4311, and he assured me that 4311s are not very hard to find since the model was very popular in my country during its day).

I have tested the L120Ti. Of course the sound doesn't match the "west coast perfection" of the 4311 (at least that what I believe to be perfect, since I grew up with that sound), however, the bass is very good. I tested it with Chicane's Halcyon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5VJv41ssro), and the bass is strong and thumpy. In fact, it is stronger than that of JBL 4315 I also tested on the store.

(of course, people may argue that the 4315's weaker bass is actually a more accurate reproduction of what the studio intended, but I just love bass.)

Since the L120Ti is offered plenty cheap, I probably better buy it for "temporary enjoyment" while waiting for the store owner to find the 4311 I want. After all, I like the bass.

What really bothers me is the treble. It is outright ugly, and when you listen it from another room, it sounds "tch tch tch" like el-cheapo Sony speakers (4311's treble doesn't sound that way when listened from another room), so if I buy the thing, I think I better replace the tweeters. Probably I just hate titanium tweeters.

Of course, changing the tweeters would change the L120Ti sound characteristics, but I don't really care as long as it suits my taste.

So what tweeter replacement would you suggest? What if I use the 4311's tweeters? They are quite plenty on ebay. Or do you have better ideas?

Many thanks,

[hjames]

More accurate, maybe. But "superior" is a subjective term. 4311 and similar generation JBLs are probably less accurate (in fact, the frequency response curve shown in the manual is not really flat). But I just like the sound. And turns out I'm not alone (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-04-20/business/0290190161_1_jbl-titanium-tweeters).

The 120Ti radically departs from traditional JBL sound. The midrange is somewhat withdrawn and muted, and voices tend to sound a bit distant, and at times even a bit hollow. The speakers reproduce a wide frequency range, but not an entirely even one. As mentioned, there's plenty of bass, but some of it is boomy mid-bass and not deep natural bass. This effect may result from placement and room acoustics. Stereo imaging, the re-creation of ''natural vocal and instrumental placement and the illusion of depth,'' seems sorely lacking.

I thought the 4310 and 4311 were more in line with the fun-but-fake bass sound of the L100 (not the L100T) speakers.
http://audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/l100.htm

While some folks here swear by the sound, I owned 4312 and L100 speakers and sold off both rather quickly for other designs.

[Kreshna]

Maybe someone had swapped out the rare and expensive original 044ti tweeters in the L 120TI with some of the cheaper 035TIA tweeters that came in lesser models?
The mounting is a little different, but folks have mismatched drivers before.
You could be right, Heather, and thanks again. I did not pay much attention to the L120Ti because I was paying more attention to the 4315.

The L120 Ti was offered for a measly US $500, so they can work as temporary solution while I'm waiting for the 4311. And since they're not that expensive, I won't be wary of modding them.

However, they are rated at 150 watt. Would my 75 wpc Sansui AU-7900 be sufficient to provide enough juice for the speakers?

Anyway, just FYI, the store owner powered the speakers with 50 wpc NAD C326BEE. While the 4315 sounds very clean (and very nice) with the 50 wpc NAD, it's not the case with the L120Ti.

[SEAWOLF97]

I have 2 "Ti" models here ...the 044Ti is an excellent HF ..IMHO.

the "West Coast sound" that you are lauding is usually referred around the forum as "fake, but fun"

[Earl K]

As for the 044Ti tweeter sounding harsh, that can also be caused by the foam damping pad having aged & shrunk away , ( ie; maybe it's no longer touching the dome & therefore the pad is no longer providing any mechanical damping ) .

See this thread at AK (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=405512) .

:)

[BMWCCA]

More accurate, maybe. But "superior" is a subjective term. 4311 and similar generation JBLs are probably less accurate (in fact, the frequency response curve shown in the manual is not really flat). But I just like the sound. And turns out I'm not alone (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-04-20/business/0290190161_1_jbl-titanium-tweeters).

The 120Ti radically departs from traditional JBL sound. The midrange is somewhat withdrawn and muted, and voices tend to sound a bit distant, and at times even a bit hollow. The speakers reproduce a wide frequency range, but not an entirely even one. As mentioned, there's plenty of bass, but some of it is boomy mid-bass and not deep natural bass. This effect may result from placement and room acoustics. Stereo imaging, the re-creation of ''natural vocal and instrumental placement and the illusion of depth,'' seems sorely lacking.

I trust you read the entire article, then you would have realized the comparison of the Ti line to "traditional" JBL sound was the L120Ti to the L112, not the L100. All comparisons of sound-stage to response have nothing to do with the 4311 but the L112, of which I am completely familiar having owned a pair since new over 30-years ago. Regardless I'd not waste a minute on the opinion of a syndicated audio columnist in a metropolitan US newspaper such as Rich Warren, who Michael Fremer refers to as "... habitual Bose slobberer Rich Warren". In my experience with such "car-guy" scribes, they only parrot worn-out opinions and express them as facts. Should you want to take it as gospel, you might consider what Michael Fremer wrote in critiquing Dr. Bose's obituary in which the obit writer claims the Bose Corporation "..became synonymous with high quality audio systems..." and that "His speakers, though expensive, earned a reputation for bringing concert-hall quality audio into the home." Fremer's response was, "Really?"

And he went on to say:
I was set off by the obituary that was just like all things Bose: a large part bullshit. No objectivity whatsoever. I suspect the writer was as much a legit obit writer as Rich Warren is an "audio critic."

Enough said? :banghead:

You can read Fremer on Bose here: http://www.analogplanet.com/content/dr-amar-bose-dead-83

[Kreshna]

I trust you read the entire article, then you would have realized the comparison of the Ti line to "traditional" JBL sound was the L120Ti to the L112, not the L100. All comparisons of sound-stage to response have nothing to do with the 4311 but the L112, of which I am completely familiar having owned a pair since new over 30-years ago. Regardless I'd not waste a minute on the opinion of a syndicated audio columnist in a metropolitan US newspaper such as Rich Warren, who Michael Fremer refers to as "... habitual Bose slobberer Rich Warren". In my experience with such "car-guy" scribes, they only parrot worn-out opinions and express them as facts. Should you want to take it as gospel, you might consider what Michael Fremer wrote in critiquing Dr. Bose's obituary in which the obit writer claims the Bose Corporation "..became synonymous with high quality audio systems..." and that "His speakers, though expensive, earned a reputation for bringing concert-hall quality audio into the home." Fremer's response was, "Really?"

And he went on to say:

Enough said? :banghead:

You can read Fremer on Bose here: http://www.analogplanet.com/content/dr-amar-bose-dead-83
Well I'm not entirely agree with the article, though I admit that the vocal is less forward than that of 4311. However, the vocal is not as bad as the article describes it. It is not "hollow" nor "withdrawn" as Rich Warren has described. In fact, the vocal is something that I can live with.

And for the plus point, the bass is strong. I actually like the bass after testing it with Chicane's Halcyon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5VJv41ssro), mostly during the low bass intro.

What really bothers me is the treble. When I walked out of the room (but leave the door opened), the HF sounds like the "tch tch tch" noise of el cheapo car audio speakers. I've never heard of such thing before; not even my tiny Wharfedales make such noise when I listen to them from outside the room (for example, when going to the fridge).

As for 4311... yes, they're not flat. They're not detailed. And the "west coast" sound I am lauding is actually "fake, but fun". And frankly, I have heard better, flatter, and more detailed speakers. Even dad admitted that 4311 is more fun than hi-fi (that's why he moved to other products). But the 4311 sound is the sound of my childhood nonetheless, and I miss that sound.

The 120Ti does not sound as fun as the 4311, but its bass does. The bass is load of fun, and the vocal is not as bad as Rich Warren describes. That's why I consider it as "temporary fix" until I can obtain a pair of 4311. However, the HF bothers me a lot. I almost bought the 120Ti (especially since the 4315 doesn't look very good (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34592-Used-JBL-4315-with-cosmetic-flaws-offered-for-US-1-500-Is-it-worth-it&goto=newpost)), but the HF stopped me from buying it.

However, considering the low price I could get for the 120Ti, do you think it worth the shot? Especially, when it goes to restoring and repairing, would it be easier to restore 120Ti than the 4315 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34592-Used-JBL-4315-with-cosmetic-flaws-offered-for-US-1-500-Is-it-worth-it&p=350179&viewfull=1#post350179) I described on another thread?

[BMWCCA]

Allow me to repeat myself: It is possible your problems with the UHF is your source, either material or playback device. The JBL titanium tweeters are unforgiving of bad program material, poor recordings, etc. I don't recall seeing anything about the rest of the system.

What it sounds like from another room is, frankly, irrelevant, and more likely an indication of poor placement or room acoustics. The 044ti is a great tweeter but it is a bit less forgiving than the phenolic 044. And the boxes themselves are very sensitive to positioning in that you can influence nearly any frequency bump through placement, height, distance from walls and other forms of boundary reinforcement. Your issue could also be the foam deterioration as mentioned above, though I'd consider that last since I have probably a dozen 044 non-ti tweets in service for far longer with no such symptoms.

We can't tell which you'll like better or what they'll sound like for you. All I can say is that a properly working pair of L100Ti should blow away a 4411. If you like your music in Kodachrome (West Coast Sound-ugh) form then simply get an equalizer and bend that curve however you wish. Even that is easier to accomplish if you start with an accurate speaker.

[Kreshna]

Allow me to repeat myself: It is possible your problems with the UHF is your source, either material or playback device. The JBL titanium tweeters are unforgiving of bad program material, poor recordings, etc. I don't recall seeing anything about the rest of the system. You don't think the possibility of aged damping pad (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34593-Modding-suggestion-for-JBL-L120Ti-What-replacement-tweeter-would-you-suggest&p=350196&viewfull=1#post350196) Earl K has mentioned? We're not exactly talking about a new pair of 120Ti here.

That's why part of my question is about restoration, because I wonder if 120Ti is easier to restore than 4315 which is also offered by the dealer.

[BMWCCA]

You don't think the possibility of aged damping pad (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34593-Modding-suggestion-for-JBL-L120Ti-What-replacement-tweeter-would-you-suggest&p=350196&viewfull=1#post350196) Earl K has mentioned? We're not exactly talking about a new pair of 120Ti here.

That's why part of my question is about restoration, because I wonder if 120Ti is easier to restore than 4315 which is also offered by the dealer.


You have fourteen total posts and you've started four individual threads all on a similar topic. I'd suggest you try to focus and maybe you'd be able to benefit from some of the advice others have given without having to repeat yourself. There are few finites in what you're asking, other than universal opinions that the 4315s you keep mentioning are beaters. Seawolf gave you good advice about your "dealer". If you ignore it then you may as well let him fix all the problems you're finding instead of asking us about them. He's either ripping you off (or trying to), or he's a pro and can solve your problems, or maybe a bit of both. What's your hurry? If $500 is chump change for you then just buy the L100Tis and let us know what you find. Maybe you can re-train your ears. Simple.

[4343]

You don't think the possibility of aged damping pad (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34593-Modding-suggestion-for-JBL-L120Ti-What-replacement-tweeter-would-you-suggest&p=350196&viewfull=1#post350196) Earl K has mentioned? We're not exactly talking about a new pair of 120Ti here.

...

He compared the 044 to 044Ti when commenting on the damping pad. I don't think that a phenolic dome really needs much in the way of additional damping, it would not surprise me to find out an 044 has fiberglass rather than foam under it.

Ti dome depend on damping to tame the "Tch" you refer to. The foam used is a known "failure" point, it would be best to either inspect the foam, or get the dealer to do so before forming an opinion one way or the other. On the other hand you might get a better price if you point out the flaw in the sound and don't mention the possibility of repair. As long as you are comfortable with delicate mechanical operations, it is entirely possible to replace the foam yourself. or get someone to do it..

[SEAWOLF97]

Ti dome depend on damping to tame the "Tch" you refer to. The foam used is a known "failure" point, it would be best to either inspect the foam, or get the dealer to do so before forming an opinion one way or the other. On the other hand you might get a better price if you point out the flaw in the sound and don't mention the possibility of repair. As long as you are comfortable with delicate mechanical operations, it is entirely possible to replace the foam yourself. or get someone to do it..

here's the thread on 044Ti dome reshape/foam replacement. If I can do it, then anybody can.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29325-044Ti-questions-Help-needed

[Chris Brown]

OP you've mentioned several times that you are essentially trying to re-create the experience you had with your dad's 4311s.

The bottom line is that the paper cone tweeters in those older JBLs suck. They serve to essentially attenuate the high-end. If you've become accustomed to that sort of muted treble, then it would make sense that you would find most of the later JBL tweeters to be bright or harsh.

Obviously I am not a fan of the older paper cone tweeters but it sounds like you might not really be happy until that is what you end up with. That being said, go for something like an early model 4312 or an L100. Don't try to butcher something like a 120ti by sticking a different tweeter in it.

[Kreshna]

OP you've mentioned several times that you are essentially trying to re-create the experience you had with your dad's 4311s.
Well, yes. But I have to admit that I fell in love with 120Ti bass sound. If the speakers are restored properly, I believe the experience re-creation can wait



The bottom line is that the paper cone tweeters in those older JBLs suck. They serve to essentially attenuate the high-end. If you've become accustomed to that sort of muted treble, then it would make sense that you would find most of the later JBL tweeters to be bright or harsh.

Obviously I am not a fan of the older paper cone tweeters but it sounds like you might not really be happy until that is what you end up with. That being said, go for something like an early model 4312 or an L100. Don't try to butcher something like a 120ti by sticking a different tweeter in it.
Well, I didn't like the tweeter when I tested the speakers, but probably the tweeter has worn out due to old age (the speakers doesn't look too good either. From their look, they appear to need restoring.).


here's the thread on 044Ti dome reshape/foam replacement. If I can do it, then anybody can.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29325-044Ti-questions-Help-needed
Oh wait, that's interesting. I believe if the tweeter is restored properly, then it won't make the harsh sound I described above. Will browse the thread, thanks.

[Kreshna]

So, I have eventually bought the 120Ti.

Remember the "tch tch" noise I told you about? Well, turn out it was because the dealer was not very careful in attaching the speaker crocodile clip. When I tested the speaker again this afternoon, it did not only emit the el-cheapo treble sound, but noises as well. After the dealer attached the clip firmly, the sound became whole. In fact, the sound is so good that my original goal to re-create dad's original "fake but fun" experience can wait. For indefinitely long time.

I know taste is subjective, but I still love the 120Ti more than those Infinities I've listened to after dad abandoned his "fake but fun" JBLs. Moreover, these particular speakers do not seem to show any serious physical defect. The worst thing I see is some sort of white freckles (probably fungus?) on the right speaker's woofer cone. Photos will follow.

I'm still wary about spare parts though. 044Ti is no longer available, but at least Seawolf and Earl K has given hints on how to replace the filler foam. Nonetheless, should the worst happen, does 052Ti work well as replacement?

I am also currently bidding on a pristine pair of 128H-1 on ebay. However, I cannot find recone kits for that particular model. Maybe I should look somewhere else other than ebay.

[SEAWOLF97]

glad it worked out. :applaud:

the "Ti" models that I've experienced have been very good at what they do and high quality products. (and I like the teak veneer)

My 18Ti's were purchased as "044Ti insurance" for my 250Ti's, but are fine speakers in their own right and get regular use.

I do have a second set of 044Ti's that came in a pair of 18's that I traded for. One tweeter was the subject of the reform/refoam thread and the other is perfect.

[Kreshna]

glad it worked out. :applaud:
Thanks! :cheers:




the "Ti" models that I've experienced have been very good at what they do and high quality products. (and I like the teak veneer)

My 18Ti's were purchased as "044Ti insurance" for my 250Ti's, but are fine speakers in their own right and get regular use.

I do have a second set of 044Ti's that came in a pair of 18's that I traded for. One tweeter was the subject of the reform/refoam thread and the other is perfect.
Now I envy you! :D

I wonder though, would a pair of 052Ti work, at least as "temporary solution" while refoaming the 044Ti? Well, it doesn't seem my 120Ti need a tweeter refoam, but I'm just being prepared.

[SEAWOLF97]

I wonder though, would a pair of 052Ti work, at least as "temporary solution" while refoaming the 044Ti? .

If you are prepared with the foam , Philips driver and a couple of pry impliments, it really should not take very long. In and out is easy, the most time consuming operation is ... after you get the pry tools inserted (not too deep) ....is waiting for the double sided tape to release.
From there you just cut the foam cube (details in other thread) , clean out the gap and re-assemble.

2 hrs. ? (1.75 just waiting :o:..YMMV)

[Kreshna]

If you are prepared with the foam , Philips driver and a couple of pry impliments, it really should not take very long. In and out is easy, the most time consuming operation is ... after you get the pry tools inserted (not too deep) ....is waiting for the double sided tape to release.
From there you just cut the foam cube (details in other thread) , clean out the gap and re-assemble.

2 hrs. ? (1.75 just waiting :o:..YMMV)
Ah, I see. Thanks! :)

Where did you buy the double-sided adhesive ring, by the way?