Used JBL 4315 with cosmetic flaws, offered for US $1,500. Is it worth it?

[Kreshna]

So I've been paying a visit to a used audio store. I was originally looking for a pair of 4311 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34584-Would-a-80-wpc-rms-amp-be-enough-to-drive-JBL-L300s&p=350088&viewfull=1#post350088) to replace dad's missing pair, but the store owner does not have one. He promised me to look for a pair though, and he said 4311s are pretty easy to find in Indonesia, since it was a very popular model during its time.

Nonetheless, the store owner also offered me either JBL 4315 or JBL L120Ti. Probably I am prejudiced against the Ti series (though I'll discuss about it later), so I am going to explain about the JBL 4315 first.



The price, the condition, and the previous owner

The store owner offered US $1.500 for the JBL 4315. He sold the speakers "as is", which mean he has not restored the speaker, but keep it in the exact original condition as he received it. He does the usual cleaning, etc, but he leaves restoration to the buyer.

He said the previous owner is Aquarius Records, a prominent recording studio and music label who dominated audio cassette market in Indonesia. They also also owned the largest chain of audio cassette store in this country, and was my dad's favorite store because they had practically everything.

The fact that the speakers belonged to a studio could mean two things:

(1) the people who operated the speakers are supposed to be smart enough not to blow a tweeter, for example.

(2) but since the speakers have been used in a studio, it could mean that the speakers have been receiving quite a dose of daily "abuse".

What's your opinion in this matter? Generally, are speakers that have been used in a studio safe to buy?



The listening test

Then I went listening to the JBL 4315. The store owner used a NAD C326BEE amplifier. It has 50 watts continuous per channel, actually lower than the 75 watts continuous per channel my Sansui AU-7900 can drive to drive the speakers. Then I have to say I'm impressed.

macaroonie was right (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34584-Would-a-80-wpc-rms-amp-be-enough-to-drive-JBL-L300s&p=350122&viewfull=1#post350122) when he said that the 4315 was far better speaker than 4311. The sound was transparent and crystal clear, despite the 50 watts amplifier the store owner was using. One of the CDs I tested was Miriam Makeba's Pata Pata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCc61z9IFu4) (I brought my own CDs to test the speakers), and the low-octave intro piano sounds as good as my dad's 4311, if not better. I even brought my mother for second opinion, and she said "this pair of speakers beat your dad's hands down."

I also played Chicane's Halcyon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5VJv41ssro) for the "thumpy" test. The bass is tight and solid, but noticeably less thumpy than my dad's 4311. I actually prefer the west coast's thumpiness of the 4311, but I think it's a matter of taste.

(well, it seems the less thumpy bass is actually the more accurate bass, but again, it's a matter of taste)



The physical condition

Well, this is where I wary the most. I regretted I didn't bring my camera, so I took the photos using my android. However, I think the photos should do their job.

So, here is the story:


(1) Each cabinet is wrapped in some sort of polymer sheet, which is wood-textured. I don't know how much it will damage the cabinet by removing the polymer. It may require sanding and re-finishing.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/cabinet-wrappedinpolymersheet_zpseb8001ff.jpg


(2) One of the mid-range (2108) is in bad condition, the upper surround does not stick to the frame anymore, showing a gap between the surround and the frame.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/midrange-uppersurrounddoesnotstick_zpsfe79eaa4.jpg


(3) The left tweeter (2105) has freckles on its metal frame, probably because of oxidation.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/tweeterleft-freckles_zps902ab8b7.jpg


(4) the right tweeter (2105) also has similar freckles.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/tweeterright-freckles_zps652ba091.jpg


(5) one of the woofers (2203) has splinted surround. The seller said it can be easily glued, though I believe a refoam should work better, am I correct?

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/woofer-splinted_zps9eab1f3c.jpg


(6) the lower right corner of the left speaker is stained quite badly.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/cabinetcorner-stain_zps7bfa0b5d.jpg


(7) oddly, the supertweeters (2405) are still in excellent cosmetic condition. Here is one:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/supertweeter-looksgood_zpsb8f245a1.jpg


(8) I have tested the turning knobs on each speaker. They still turn perfectly and tight. However, the panel is stained.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/panel-stained_zpsac47942b.jpg


(9) The JBL emblem has light-brown stain near the right edge.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/jbllogo-stained_zps8eb4a8f7.jpg


(10) The woofer cone (2203) still looks pretty good for each woofer.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kreshna_iceheart/hardware/JBL%204315%20worth%20buying%20or%20not/woofercone-looksgood_zps453d49b5.jpg



The questions

My first and foremost concern is of course, spare parts. I have been searching the web for spare parts, and hjames was right; the 4315 uses multiple drivers that are no longer available or repairable in the US and are probably even more rare overseas. As such:

(a) since the 2203 recone kit is no longer available (the refoam kit, on the other hand, is still abundant), what should I do if the cone gets damaged? What if I use "generic" 112" re-cone kit? I found several generic recone kits on ebay, and one of them makes pretty bold claim like "compatible with JBL, Jensen's, etc".

Or if I'm using recone kit for other JBL woofers, what is the recone model that is closest to the 2203?


(b) same questions with 2208 and 2105.


(c) If I have to replace the entire driver, what would be the best "unofficial upgrade" replacement for the drivers? I remember reading somewhere about L166 repair, that you can replace damaged 066 tweeter with 044 model without ruining its sound characteristics too much, because 044 and 066 sound almost silmiar. I also remember that you can replace (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-220675.html) damaged L166's LE5-8 woofer with LE5-12 if the former is unavailable, because JBL recommended the LE5-12 as exact acoustic replacement if the LE5-8's are not serviceable anymore.

But that's L166. How about 4315? Does such "unofficial upgrade path" exist for 4315?



(d) How long the driver's magnets will last? I mean, everyday listening use.


(e) I'm concerned about the freckles on the 2105 and the 2108. Any tip to clean them off (and probably refinish them) without damaging the speaker's cone?


Last question: if you were in my shoes, would you buy the speakers?

[SEAWOLF97]

they APPEAR to me to have lived in an uncaring environment. Who knows what wrong internally. Personally, I'd keep looking.

Australia isn't super far away, they seem to have quite a bit of gear and sea freight isn't too high.

I've been in similar situations , have taken a pass on gear , only to find a better deal in better quality pieces shortly thereafter.

Put out WTB ads ... I don't think that your dealer is doing you any favors.

[Kreshna]

they APPEAR to me to have lived in an uncaring environment. Who knows what wrong internally. Personally, I'd keep looking.
Well they were used in recording studio, who knows what kind of abuse they have received.


Australia isn't super far away, they seem to have quite a bit of gear and sea freight isn't too high.

I have browsed ebay.com.au frequently, but haven't found what I want. It seems I have better chance with ebay UK, and the international shipping cost is not high either.

[Robh3606]

Hello Kreshna

Unless you like projects be careful what systems you invest you time and money in. The 4315 while a wonderful system has 3 drivers that no longer have recone kits available. The 2203 woofers and 2108 midranges are rare as hens teeth so even if you don't mind hunting drivers down they will be expensive and few and far between. You can refoam both the woofer and midranges to give them some more life providing they are in reasonable shape to start with. They need to be playing now, anything that's dead you won't be able to fix with an original kit except for the 2405 tweeters.

If you like the way they sound and they are in good shape fine but do some homework before you drop some cash and end up with a system you can't fix now or down the road.

Rob:)

[Kreshna]

Hello Kreshna

Unless you like projects be careful what systems you invest you time and money in. The 4315 while a wonderful system has 3 drivers that no longer have recone kits available. The 2203 woofers and 2108 midranges are rare as hens teeth so even if you don't mind hunting drivers down they will be expensive and few and far between. You can refoam both the woofer and midranges to give them some more life providing they are in reasonable shape to start with. They need to be playing now, anything that's dead you won't be able to fix with an original kit except for the 2405 tweeters.

If you like the way they sound and they are in good shape fine but do some homework before you drop some cash and end up with a system you can't fix now or down the road.

Rob:)
Thanks for the advice, Rob. :) Actually, the more I think about it, the less eager I am to buy the 4315.

But what would you think about the 120Ti (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?34593-Modding-suggestion-for-JBL-L120Ti-What-replacement-tweeter-would-you-suggest&p=350206#post350206) discussed in another thread? Will it be easier to restore/recondition 120Ti than 4315?

[mech986]

Hi, from the picture took here's my comments about the speakers you ask about:


The outer wrap on the cabinets could be a problem in that the cabinet normally is a nice walnut veneer. No telling what kind of potential injury or damage the wrap was meant to cover or hide. So if you're lucky you may be looking at just a removal and cleanup. But if not you're probably looking at reveneer, which might eventually look very nice depending upon what you do and the skill of who does the work. So figure some potential cost there.


The pictures are limited so it might be a good idea to go back with a good camera and good lighting and take some additional pictures of the entire speaker from all sides and then the individual drivers.


The 2405 tweeters, unless physically abused, usually appear cosmetically in good shape. The tweeter diaphragms can be broken down from heavy use so should be listened to very carefully for any signs of distortion. New diaphragms from JBL are not cheap. However the 2405 driver, in either AlNico or ferrite magnets are still plentiful on the used market if needed.


The 2105 4 inch midrange is probably the most fragile of all the drivers and cone kits are unavailable. However there are equivalents to this driver in the JBL consumer versions like LE5-2 or some of the later variants. The external corrosion on the face of the frame is fairly easy to remove with some light sanding on a flat surface.


The 2108 alnico mid bass is the toughest driver to source replacements. Superficially the driver looks okay except for rust on the mounting screws and corrosion on the frame. The loose surround, if you're lucky may be reglued down if it's loose. It might be worthwhile to lift up the entire surround and reglue the surround if if the surround is in reasonable condition. There is an outer plastic ring gasket that is fitted at the very outer circumference of the driver surround. These look like the surrounds were correctly placed on the back of the cone and appear to be the correct narrow roll surrounds. However if it were me, I would get new surrounds and have them redone fresh. I would also replace the screws with good black equivalents


The 2203 picture reveals two things. The split material picture is actually the outer gasket and is supposed to be made of a neoprene rubber foam which should extend all the way around the outer circumference of the surround. JBL Pro probably still has a similar surround gasket available. It does come in four sections with small cutouts for mounting holes. The driver appears to have been refoamed but the surround has been glued on the front of the cone instead of the back of the cone as on the original. If the current surround can be lifted off without significant damage, a new surround, correct fitting like from Orange County speaker or Rick Cobb, could be fitted include correctly in place. Assuming the driver is working correctly and the surrounds could be done correctly, I would do that as well, ensuring that all driver foams are now new and correctly fitted.


The staining at the lower right corner of the cabinet should be inspected to see if there is any structural damage from water or other materials. It may be cosmetic hopefully but you should check for any splitting of the corner seam.


The 4315 label has an A at the end of the serial number meaning this is actually a 4315A. This has a slightly different cabinet configuration then the original 4315. (I think it's two ports versus one port). The labels should clean up easily but I'm concerned that some of the brownish material is either old nicotine from cigarette smoke or possibly light rust like corrosion from a high humidity environment. I would take a rag with some water or a very light alcohol and rub these areas and smell to see what it smells like. Similarly, the normally bright JBL blue on the baffle could be also heavily stained so you should look for that.


I would be also looking for the grills and their metal identification labels, but it might be rather wishful thinking to find them in any type of good condition. If at all. I am not particularly impressed if these came from a "studio" unless they were in decent or better condition because these certainly looked like they have been suffering from exposure and some general neglect.


If I was looking at these particular speakers, I would verify that each driver is functioning correctly. I would be looking at the overall condition of the speakers and figuring that I would have a significant amount of work to do to get them cosmetically in good shape. The above mentioned driver re-foam work would also be added into the cost of the speaker for me. This also assumes that the inside of the cabinet is unmolested and the crossover is in good, unmolested condition. And all of the fiberglass damping material is still in place. I would inspect the entire cabinet looking for any signs that the cabinet was mounted or hung, with an eye toward any damage that must be repaired.


If I were negotiating for possible purchase I'd basically start at $750-$800 as is because of the current condition. Internally if I really wanted the speakers I probably would go to about 1000 or 1200 Max. 1200 to 1500 usually buys a very clean and fully working pair of 4315 if you are here in the United States. They have been sold in good condition for less however. As mentioned above it all depends on your potential appetite for a project and whether you value the speakers and/or their rarity in order to pay the price to acquire them.


If the speakers have been there for some time you might be able to negotiate the price down if the dealer wants to move them. They obviously require a fair amount of work. As for replacements, I suspect that the 2214 H driver from the 4425 or L100T series would be about the best replacement if it became necessary. The 2108 has no specific equivalent but the 2118 or 2119 8 inch midrange might work here. Of course, crossover work would have to be done.


If you're really after a true pair of JBL monitors, these are a very good example of them in the four-way flavor. It's up to you to decide if the cost and effort is worth it.


Regards,


Bart

[gferrell]

Better pictures please back up a little.

[hjames]

So - didja buy it yet?

[Kreshna]

So - didja buy it yet?
Nope. If only replacement parts are easy to obtain, I may buy it. But restoring it would consume more time than I currently have. Not to mention I am inexperienced in restoring speakers.

By the way, thanks for the suggestion on this thread, everyone.

[SEAWOLF97]

So - didja buy it yet?

OP seems a pretty smart guy, do you think that he'd buck the advise of those live this stuff ?

the 8 votes = NO and 0 (zero) = YES is a pretty strong recommendation NOT to buy them.

[hjames]

OP seems a pretty smart guy, do you think that he'd buck the advise of those live this stuff ?

the 8 votes = NO and 0 (zero) = YES is a pretty strong recommendation NOT to buy them.

Sure - but we gave him the same info BEFORE he started up the poll -
obviously it didn't change anything ...

So I shoulda put the dancing banana next to my rhetorical Q this morning, hmmm?

[Kreshna]

There were differing opinions. macaroonie seems to be excited with the 4315s I found, as well as giving some tips on restoration. But like I said, the effort will consume way more time than what I currently have, not to mention I'm totally inexperienced in restoring loudspeakers.

[mech986]

Nope. If only replacement parts are easy to obtain, I may buy it. But restoring it would consume more time than I currently have. Not to mention I am inexperienced in restoring speakers.

By the way, thanks for the suggestion on this thread, everyone.


OP seems a pretty smart guy, do you think that he'd buck the advise of those live this stuff ?

the 8 votes = NO and 0 (zero) = YES is a pretty strong recommendation NOT to buy them.


There were differing opinions. macaroonie seems to be excited with the 4315s I found, as well as giving some tips on restoration. But like I said, the effort will consume way more time than what I currently have, not to mention I'm totally inexperienced in restoring loudspeakers.

Frankly, I probably would have voted to purchase them, but only at the right price. I'm a sucker for JBL speakers that need work, partly because I like the challenge. I do understand the driver issue, especially in the southern hemisphere, is quite daunting, but I've been able to find sufficient spares for my pair of 4315's. I also would like to think that the LE14H-3 would be a wonderful woofer in a 4315-type system a la L250.

For me, bragging rights might overcome the cosmetic and work issues just to have a chance to hear them. As I would be bargaining anyway, I'd be looking at an ultimate price of around $1000-1200. I'd then store them, working on small bits of them until I had sufficient confidence to tackle the cabinets. Personally, I think the soldering and recapping is quite straightforward once you practiced a bit. Send out the drivers for the refoam, and then let it rip.

But I appreciate the concerns of our OP and his decision making. We must choose what we feel comfortable with.

[mech986]

Kreshna, did you ever reconsider or did you let the 4315A's go to someone else, or did they even ever sell?