2245 active 3 way

[Dan]

I purchased 2 JBL 2245 on ebay for $219 each and asked the seller to ship it to Orange County Speakers to have it reconed with the original recone kit.

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[Dan]

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CNC cut parts

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internal bracing

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First box almost done

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insulation from recycled jeans from Lowes

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Cutting the vents from a 4" pvc pipe

[Dan]

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JBL 2245 (95db) + Beyma 8" mid 8m70V2 (95db), Beyma TPL-150 with custom waveguide (100db)

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Crown K1 driving the 2245 + Behringer DCX 2496

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View of my listening room/ hometheater

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(3) 41hz Amp 6 on battery power driving the TPL-150, each amp in parallel mono at 12 watts each. Not seen in the pic are (2) 41hz Amp 4 (25watts) driving the Beyma 8" mid. Mini DSP is used for the mid/ tweeter with a tweeter delay of .06ms.

Cross over points LR-24 300hz, 1.2k

[just4kinks]

Cool. I like how you did the bracing, do you have one of those CNC router machines?

And the most important question: how does it sound?

[martin_wu99]

So cool,congrats:applaud:

[pos]

Very nice setup Dan! I which I had your woodworking skills!

Did you measure your setup to establish the filter/eq topology?
How did you handle the baffle step of the midbox?
Given the width of that box, it probably makes the 300Hz crossover quite difficult to operate.

[Lee in Montreal]

Very nice work. I love CNC wood cutting.

BTW Are you sure that Orange County installed original JBL recones? The size of the dome, as well as the two "traces" look quite different from mine. Or perhaps they are the new "Hecho in Mexico" JBL cone kits.

Great stuffing too. What is the source for those?

[Dan]

Cool. I like how you did the bracing, do you have one of those CNC router machines?

And the most important question: how does it sound?

The box is very solid considering its cut from 3/4" MDF. It is also very heavy.

I don't own the CNC. At one point I was considering on getting one. A local shop with a CNC cuts the parts for me. These are just test boxes. The fit is not so good. I had to make a lot of adjustments manually. I will modify the parts in the computer before CNC cutting the final boxes. I will make a new set to be veneered with walnut. The waveguide will be milled in solid walnut.

I'm very happy with the sound. The bass/ lower mid bass from the 2245 is so clear, tight and dynamic. Its one of the best I have heard or felt. The entire system images very well. The speakers disappear in front of you. All you hear is the music. No listening fatigue.

I started this project more than 3 years ago. I have tried a lot of things and drivers, including a JBL 2123 for the mid. So far this version works really well.

You can come over and listen to them if you like.

Dan

[Dan]

Very nice work. I love CNC wood cutting.

BTW Are you sure that Orange County installed original JBL recones? The size of the dome, as well as the two "traces" look quite different from mine. Or perhaps they are the new "Hecho in Mexico" JBL cone kits.

Great stuffing too. What is the source for those?

I made sure that Orange County installed the original recone kit. I hope they did. You can see the price on the receipt. The back of the cone is coated (aquaplas).

I bought the stuffing from Lowes home improvement store. They are like Home Depot.

Dan

[Dan]

Very nice setup Dan! I which I had your woodworking skills!

Did you measure your setup to establish the filter/eq topology?
How did you handle the baffle step of the midbox?
Given the width of that box, it probably makes the 300Hz crossover quite difficult to operate.


Thank you for the compliment. My wood working skills are about average. Its the CNC machine that did the cutting :)

I have not made any compensation for the baffle step yet. So far it sounds good already. It is a big improvement from the previous version using a 15" SB Acoustics woofer in a sealed box.

I use True RTA software to make the measurements for the corssover points. I'll try to post a screen shot of the response. I just finished the boxes a few days ago so I haven't measured them yet.

I used Bass Box Pro to design the box. I made simulations for 7.5(suggested by software), 8, 9, 10 cuft. I chose the 8 cuft because it seems to best fullfil my requirements on size and performance. Fb of 26hz was also suggested by the software. I'm still playing around with the boost settings. Right now it is at 26hz +6 db, Q=2

Dan

[Chas]

The stuffing used looks to me like the sort of insulation used for acoustic insulation for inside home between room walls. I would guess that it would react differently compared to fibreglas as it is usually much more dense. But, if you achieve your desired Fb, then it's all good.

[Lee in Montreal]

I thnk I saw that type of acoustic stuffing at Home Depot last week. i'd prefer that to fiberglass, which is obviously not as bad as asbestos, but not something you want in your lungs and eyes...

Lee

[dr_gallup]

Very cool. Love to see the final veneered boxes. I like that insulation but I suspect it will react differently than fiberglass. Will be interested in seeing some response curves. I'm a big 2245 fan too but I just have one in a sub.

[Dan]

The stuffing used looks to me like the sort of insulation used for acoustic insulation for inside home between room walls. I would guess that it would react differently compared to fibreglas as it is usually much more dense. But, if you achieve your desired Fb, then it's all good.

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[Dan]

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Here is the frequency response from my listening position. I couldn't do a screen shot so I just took a pic of the screen.

[BMWCCA]

In a damp environment, I believe I'd prefer to have fiberglass than cotton. I'm in a damp environment. As a motorcyclist of now over 43 years, I've experienced wet denim. Talk about irritating! ;)

According to the American Lung Association:
The International Agency on Cancer Research (IACR) removed fiberglass from its “possibly carcinogenic to humans” list in 2001. :dont-know:

Great project, by the way! Love the K1s. Are you bridging one for each 2245? That's a ton of power!

As others have asked, tell us how it sounds!

[spkrman57]

Looks like the room they are in is pretty large!

Ron

[Dan]

In a damp environment, I believe I'd prefer to have fiberglass than cotton. I'm in a damp environment. As a motorcyclist of now over 43 years, I've experienced wet denim. Talk about irritating! ;)

According to the American Lung Association: :dont-know:

Great project, by the way! Love the K1s. Are you bridging one for each 2245? That's a ton of power!

As others have asked, tell us how it sounds!

The Crown K1 is not bridged. I tried bridging them but did not see any advantage in this 3 way set up unless you plan on listening at concert levels. There is a lot of bass headroom with the 2245 and 350 watts. The K1 needs an input voltage of 1.4V to work properly. My HT pre amp has both balanced and unbalanced outputs. I use the balanced out put (1.4V) to drive the Behringer DCX 2496 and the K1. The unbalanced output drives the Mini DSP and the mid/high amps. There is a mismatch of input voltages in the amps which is why I use 2 types of active crossovers. I'm using 3 mini dsp (L-C-R) with the 4 way software.

I'm thinking of adding one more 2245 for the LFE channel. This I will probably bridge :D

What I really like is that I can play the system at full power with no listening fatigue :)

The 2245 has the best bass (26hz-300hz) I have heard. Very detailed, dynamic. Hifi sound with the dynamics of a pro woofer. I was worried it might decrease the imaging but it didn't.

The Beyma 8m70V2 8" mid(95db) is so smooth and images very well. I tried the JBL 2123 but it did not meet my requirements. It did not image well. My ears would hurt after listening to them no matter how much I pad them down at the crossover. I also tried an Lpad and resistors but it was just too efficient at 101db for my taste.

The Beyma TPL-150 is an AMT(air motion transformer) type tweeter. If you like the sound of Beryllium but don't like the cost this one is for you ;) Its the next best thing. I tried the horn version but it did not image well. It also sounded more like a pro audio speaker. The one without the wave guide did not blend well with the mid, lacked detail and dynamics which why I chose to make a custom wave guide. The custom wave guide images well and blends in with the mid. Its like they are one :)

Dan

[Ear4life]

Very nice setup you have there! :)

I had a Crown K2 for my sub system as well for a while, and liked it a lot! Very transparent, strong bass amplifier!
If you want LFE, you would probably have to build a very large cabinet to tune it as low as LFE goes. I think the 2245 is a great low frequency transducer, but has a harder time doing extended low material. Something to think about, and I know it´s hard to give a way some of the musicality. But modern bass drivers are more likely to do the extended low information, and you still have the needed power, even when/if going a bit down in sensitivity ;)

Keep it up! Looks awesome!!

Best regards
Martin

[more10]

Very nice build:applaud:

I was happy to see you use 41hz amps. I have built a few of them myself. The amp6 is without power suppy, and amp4 is with power supply. The easiest way to improve these are to build your own stablilized power supply (for feedback comparator), which requires a model without power supply. You could also replace the crowns with amp8 (http://shop.41hz.com/shop/item.asp?catid=16&itemid=42)!

Mårten

[Mr. Widget]

I don't own the CNC. At one point I was considering on getting one. A local shop with a CNC cuts the parts for me. These are just test boxes. The fit is not so good. I had to make a lot of adjustments manually. I will modify the parts in the computer before CNC cutting the final boxes. I will make a new set to be veneered with walnut. The waveguide will be milled in solid walnut.I would suggest you use baltic birch plywood for your bracing in the final version. MDF while inert is also lacking in structural integrity... it is like soggy paper. If you brace the cabinets with 1" thick birch plywood the box will be far more rigid and the resulting bass will be even more taught.

Aesthetically I like the idea of using solid walnut for the waveguides... that will be very pretty.

Interesting project... very boxy for being an out of the box solution. ;)


Widget

[frank23]

Good to see I'm not the only one with an ugly setup :-) Does the 8" Beyma keep up with the 2245?

[Dan]

Good to see I'm not the only one with an ugly setup :-) Does the 8" Beyma keep up with the 2245?

No problem with the Beyma keeping up with the 2245.

Dan

[BeDome]

No problem with the Beyma keeping up with the 2245.

Dan


What am I missing, here?

What can an 8 do that an 18 can not do better, except above 1KHz, possibly, with a bit less beaming?

[Lee in Montreal]

What am I missing, here?

What can an 8 do that an 18 can not do better, except above 1KHz, possibly, with a bit less beaming?

Well, even JBL crossed the 2245 at 290Hz in the 4345. There must be a reason. ;)

[BeDome]

Well, even JBL crossed the 2245 at 290Hz in the 4345. There must be a reason. ;)


Alrighty, then.

That was kind of my thinking, but I thought it could go another octave without too much beaming.

I probably misunderstood something in the previous posts.
:blink:

[Lee in Montreal]

The 2245 cone is very heavy. It is not intended to do anything but bass. Cones from the 2241 and 2242 are lighter and could go up to 600/700Hz.

[BeDome]

The 2245 cone is very heavy. It is not intended to do anything but bass. Cones from the 2241 and 2242 are lighter and could go up to 600/700Hz.

Yep, got it.

It is just such an exciting thread, I read it too fast at first and missed the question of sensitivity.

I love a great DIY project and I read about them, even at my age, like a kid stuffing two handfuls of candy in his mouth all at once.
:)

[Dan]

Testing now a 2118 for the mid. So far its the best mid yet. The speakers dissappear in front of you. All you hear is the music. Its like having a center speaker on the vocals. Its smooth and images much better than the 2122, 2123. Crossover points are LR24 250, 1350.

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It is now about 70% JBL :)

Dan

[Dan]

Testing the 2118 in a MTM set up. Seemless intergation with all the drivers. Sound stage is much taller. An improvement compared to a single 2118. It plays lound and clear at 100db efficiency. Crossover points for now are LR-24, 270, 1650.

59088

59089

Dan

[tuyen]

Hi Dan,

How are your finding the MTM config now? Better than all previous setups?

As I currently have a pair of unused tpl-150h and well built 300L ported boxes, I'm tempted attain a pair of 2245h (or maybe 2235h) and build a 3-way like you have done.

Have been doing a bit of reading and another candidate that is getting rave reviews to use as mids is the Beyma Liberty 8 (12"). Meant to be a replica of the legendary JBL E-120 (discontinued). Check link below if interested about it:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231551-beyma-12p80nd-tpl-150-a-13.html

[Dan]

Hi Dan,

How are your finding the MTM config now? Better than all previous setups?

As I currently have a pair of unused tpl-150h and well built 300L ported boxes, I'm tempted attain a pair of 2245h (or maybe 2235h) and build a 3-way like you have done.

Have been doing a bit of reading and another candidate that is getting rave reviews to use as mids is the Beyma Liberty 8 (12"). Meant to be a replica of the legendary JBL E-120 (discontinued). Check link below if interested about it:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/231551-beyma-12p80nd-tpl-150-a-13.html

Hi Tuyen,

Yes the MTM is the best set up. I also tried TMM but I like the MTM better. I highly recommend the 2245 if you have space for a 8cuft box.

I tested the TPL-150 and a Beyma 12" 12br70. It was not a good match for hifi. I found that the TPL-150 sounds better if the xover point is 1600 and above. The highs get better as the cut off gets higher.

I tried the horn version TPL-150H but I did not like the sound for hifi. Sounds good for Pro sound. I was not happy with the TPL-150 with out the horn which is why I built a custom wave guide. It is a cut down version of the horn.

Dan

[mech986]

Excellent thread and build adventure! is there any way to get a few more of the wave guides made for those of use who would like to experiment?

Note friends that the 4645 A-D is a similar 8 cu ft box already made by JBL. Other similar boxes are used in Cinema Series too.

[kartsmart]

Just thinking /tpl-150h for replacing the 2404 in the 4628B and 2445s for low end ? :bouncy:

[tuyen]

interested in a pair of waveguides myself. not biggest fan of the original beyma horn and don't like how it sounds horn-less!

[kartsmart]

interested in a pair of waveguides myself. not biggest fan of the original beyma horn and don't like how it sounds horn-less!
How about a sketch of these wave-guides for us DIY guys

[Dan]

I have been testing the PHL Audio 6.5" (1220) in an MTM configuration. Each driver has a 93db sensitivity. It meets my goal of 96db for the mid. Its very smooth. No EQ needed. The mid drivers are inherently time aligned to the tweeter so no time delay is needed. Integration is very good.

Crossover is LR24, 290, 1850

I have added foam on the sides of the wave guide. It makes the mid-highs smoother. I used velcro to mount the foam. So far the best position is about in line with the width of the mid drivers.

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Red= PHL Audio 1220, Yellow= JBL 2122

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Red= PHL 1220, Yellow= JBL 2122

Looks like the PHL 1220 and JBL 2122 are very similar. The advantage of the PHL 1220 over the 2122 is that it can be crossed higher.

Dan

[Ear4life]

Hello Dan!

Nice work! I like to read about what you discover during the comparing of different drivers! :applaud:

I thought you ended up with the 2118 last time, for being better than the 2122 ?

I have bin looking at the PHL drivers my self for years. There are many very good reviews out there on the 6½ inch midranges... hmm.. Another interesting driver could be the Lambda TD6M from acoustic elegance

Any news on your thoughts on LFE? ...JBL?

Regards
Martin

[Dan]

Hello Dan!

Nice work! I like to read about what you discover during the comparing of different drivers! :applaud:

I thought you ended up with the 2118 last time, for being better than the 2122 ?

I have bin looking at the PHL drivers my self for years. There are many very good reviews out there on the 6½ inch midranges... hmm.. Another interesting driver could be the Lambda TD6M from acoustic elegance

Any news on your thoughts on LFE? ...JBL?

Regards
Martin

Hi Martin,

The PHL 1220 in MTM is the best combo so far. Very smooth and detailed, more resolution and depth speacially at lower listening levels. Inherently time aligned to the TPL-150 custom wave guide.

For this 3 way set up a 10" mid will not work because the TPL-150 can not be crossed low enough to properly integrate to the 10" mid. A compression driver would be a better choice.

The Lamda TDM-6 does not have a flat response looking at the measurements in their forum. There is a large dip somehwere in the mid band. The PHL 1220 has a flat response from 290-1850, no EQ needed. Above 1850 the mid-high gets to be a bit nasal and integration to the TPL-150 becomes difficult. I can start to hear that the sound is coming from 2 seperate drivers.

I am not sure if it is coincidence that the PHL 1220 and JBL 2122 look very similar in response in Bass Box Pro. Maybe the JBL 2122 was used as a bench mark when PHL Audio developed the 1220. Even the model numbers are similar :)

Another 3 way combo that I think will work very well is a 15" + PHL 1120(single) + TPL-150, LR24 crossover @ 400, 2K. A sub may be needed.

I did not want to use a subwoofer in my 3 way system which is why I chose the 2245 for the bass. F3 26hz at 120 db is plenty. There are 2 of them :)

Some of the LFE subs I was considering were; Aura "18, Eminence Lab12, Lab15 (Imax sub?)

Dan

[Ear4life]

Hi Dan

The 2245 is a special driver! It´s not really a subwoofer, but not just a woofer... You look at it and think of it as a "pro" driver, but not really minded for reinforcement. It´s in between all of it :) It´s law less when you compare it to whats on the marked! That´s what I like about it. Maybe I should get started on my 2245 project as well...

The TD6M has a dip of 3-4 db in the mid area, BUT do not cancel it because of that! t/s is close to the PHL driver but the difference you should look at is voicecoil inductance (Le). It shows only 0.044 mH witch is the lowest I have seen. That will lead to great performance, also in crossover areas, and make integration easy and good. The impedance curve shows extreme linear as well, but that´s mostly for the passive-crossing-people ;)

another wonderful midrange driver from Denmark is this: http://www.sbacoustics.com/index.php/products/midwoofers/6-sb17nrxc35-4/
It has the same qualities as the TD drivers.

If you get the chance one day to try one of these, I would recommend you to do it :D (I´m using the TD15M)

Regards
Martin

[Dan]

I have been testing a TAD TD-2002 in a 1000hz Le 'Cleache horn. Cross over points are LR24, 280hz, 1650hz with a .4ms delay on the mid.

No eq on the 2002, it is very smooth and integrates seemlessly with the 2118 mid. There is a 30ohm resistor in series on the 2002 as recommended by Jean Michael Le 'Cleache to smoothen out the 2K region. It also sounds good with out it but not as smooth. Works well with out a super tweeter. Theoretical frequency range of this 3 way is 26hz-20K.

How does it sound? It sounds warm and smooth. Imaging is very good. It falls between a B&W 800 series and a 3 way mid/high horn speaker.


Dan

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[Dan]

60566

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[Dan]

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[Lee in Montreal]

Love it. How did you equalized the 2245?

[Dan]

Love it. How did you equalized the 2245?

Hi Lee,

The settings for the 2245 is +6 db @ 26hz, Q=2. Its in a 8 cuft box tuned to 26hz.

The bass quality is amazing. It is very detailed and musical. It may sound dry to some but it will not play any bass that is not there.

Dan

[Lee in Montreal]

Hi Lee,

The settings for the 2245 is +6 db @ 26hz, Q=2. Its in a 8 cuft box tuned to 26hz.

The bass quality is amazing. It is very detailed and musical. It may sound dry to some but it will not play any bass that is not there.

Dan

Thanks. So, you are able to reach up to circa 300Hz on the 2245?

I am asking as I plan to use a 2245 (20-350Hz) and a 2360 (350Hz-20KHz) as a two-way system. i currently have a 2245 as a sub (20-50Hz) and use two 2226 to 400Hz and two 2360 on top.

[Dan]

Thanks. So, you are able to reach up to circa 300Hz on the 2245?

I am asking as I plan to use a 2245 (20-350Hz) and a 2360 (350Hz-20KHz) as a two-way system. i currently have a 2245 as a sub (20-50Hz) and use two 2226 to 400Hz and two 2360 on top.

Hi Lee,

The 2245 is suppose to be flat to 500hz so 350hz should be ok but I think the optimum freq is 270-300hz.

I have heard the 4345 which uses a 9cu ft cab tuned to 30hz. It has a fuller bottom end compared to the 8cu ft tuned to 26hz but the mid bass is not as defined and as musical as the 8cu ft. If I remember correctly Bass box pro recommends a 7.5cuft cab tuned to 26-27hz. The 8cuft cab may also sound better in a smaller room due to less interaction of the low frequencies with the room.

Dan

[Mr. Widget]

Hi Dan,

Looks like a very nice set up. Those horns look quite diminutive on those drivers. It's no wonder you have to cross them over fairly high, but then I suppose larger versions would loose some output on the upper end.

From the shot over the back of the couch it looks like you are sitting a mile away from the speakers... just how big is that room and what are the speaker distance and listener dimensions?


Widget

[badman]

Seems like you could do well in such a space to pull the speakers forward a bit- the TV is definitely creating some interference patterns in the mids. Also, I've found that foam works best as an extension of the waveguide- if you can shape it so it's at the edge of the WG and shaped to not protrude, you'll reduce reflections off the foam and it'll sound better, IME. Basic open cell foam has a combination of reflective and absorptive properties, so it's most effectively used with this in mind. Ideally you'd use it to create a lossy termination going all the way around the corner of the cab.

Edit:
With the foam thing, I'm talking about the ribbon system above, not the TAD setup.

[more10]

TD-2002 new in box gives me goosebumps. :D

[Dan]

Hi Dan,

Looks like a very nice set up. Those horns look quite diminutive on those drivers. It's no wonder you have to cross them over fairly high, but then I suppose larger versions would loose some output on the upper end.

From the shot over the back of the couch it looks like you are sitting a mile away from the speakers... just how big is that room and what are the speaker distance and listener dimensions?


Widget

Hi Widget,

The room itself is 20ft wide by 16ft deep and opens up to the living/ dining room. My listening position is about 14ft from the speakers. The ceiling is vaulted and is about 15ft at its highest point. I had the house built last year and designed it with an open floor plan. The floor plan was designed to optimize the location and size of the media room :D I can sit at the kitchen island and still watch TV :)

A folding wall to enclose the media room is part of the design. So this can be installed if needed.

60588

I'll be testing larger Le Cleac'h horns and see how low the cut off can go with out compromising the top end.

Dan

[Mostlydiy]

Very beautiful system. I also put my ribbons aside some time ago. I wasnt very pleased with the dispersion. I might have to make a costum waveguide of some kind as you did to make it work better.

/Mostly

[more10]

There is a 30ohm resistor in series on the 2002 as recommended by Jean Michael Le 'Cleache to smoothen out the 2K region.

You got this from a forum or directly from monsieur LeCleach? If from a forum please post the link. A friend of mine has the same horn....

[Dan]

You got this from a forum or directly from monsieur LeCleach? If from a forum please post the link. A friend of mine has the same horn....

http://www.triodefestival.net/index.php?page=etf-2010-shootout

Here is the link to the 2010 European Horn shoot out. On the bottom page you can click on the PDF file that has the graphs and more detailed info.

Dan

[more10]

The classic hole of the TD2001 response around 1900Hz is annulled by the use of a 30ohm serial resistor.


Is the TD2002 the same?

[mech986]

Any way to share the CNC cutting info in case some wish to try getting a cabinet cut? Also, how would one go about finding a CNC wood cutting shop? Could the whole cabinet be made from thick baltic birch?

[brucew]

Testing the 2118 in a MTM set up. Seemless intergation with all the drivers. Sound stage is much taller. An improvement compared to a single 2118. It plays lound and clear at 100db efficiency. Crossover points for now are LR-24, 270, 1650.

59088

59089

Dan

Hello Dan,

The waveguide for Beyma ribbon looks very interesting. What coverage angles was this designed for? Also, would you be able to provide some dimensional data?

Thanks,

Bruce