2404h,2405h,2405...

[delahais]

Hello,
Maybe it has already been a forum on that, I have not found ... Just then, I have 2404H 2405H and the 2405 does anyone know why the 2405 looks the best? (with the best possible settings)
regards.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm not sure what you're looking for, but this might help: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6368-Ring-Radiator-Comparisons


Widget

[delahais]

Thank you Widget, i'll take a look at this thread.

Best regards.

[Lee in Montreal]

"Why it looks the best?" - I don't understand the question. ;)

[delahais]

Hello Lee,
Just after trying the three models I thought the 2405 was the best, but this is only my opinion, I wanted to know if something special was why the 2405 is different; horn, diaphragm, alnico magnet ...?
trying the 2404H on one side I found it better than the 2405 but after installing the two I have not managed to find the sound of 2405, warmer and more natural...Perhaps I should try again...

best regards.

[Mr. Widget]

There is no performance difference between the 2405 and 2405H. That said there is tremendous unit to unit variation especially with previously used JBL ring radiators... this was shown in some of the measurements posted on that thread.

Widget

[delahais]

Yes Widget,
I have no analyzer so I can not measure. My ears can not hear above 13kHz!, But I still prefer the 2405/077 others 2405H, 2404H ...
I think the 2405 gives the best results with a filter as T; 1uF, 0.2mh, 1.5UF, L-pad and 18ohms ...
maybe I can try to connect two different tweeters (12/16+12/16ohms = 6/8ohms) to have the qualities of both, finesse and punch ... etc ...
this is crazy! I'm kidding!
Good evening... here it's 11 pm, I'm going to dream of speaker ...
regards.

[Lee in Montreal]

Hello Lee,
Just after trying the three models I thought the 2405 was the best, but this is only my opinion, I wanted to know if something special was why the 2405 is different; horn, diaphragm, alnico magnet ...?
trying the 2404H on one side I found it better than the 2405 but after installing the two I have not managed to find the sound of 2405, warmer and more natural...Perhaps I should try again...

best regards.


My confusion was based on the use of "looks the best" wich is a visual appreciation. I guess that what you had in mind was probably "sounds the best"...

[1audiohack]

The 077 "looks" the best, hands down. :p

[ratitifb]

The 077 "looks" the bestsome say it sounds better than 2405 :D

[BMWCCA]

some say it sounds better than 2405 :D

My car always seems to run better after it's had a bath, too. ;)

[more10]

The 2403 is the best looking tweeter ever made in my opionion!

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6175&stc=1&d=1111887088

[delahais]

Google translation...
I understood that he is better that I not communicating on this forum!
special thank you to BMWCCA ... very funny ...
life is short, no time to lose.

[BeDome]

I am not sure that I can hear anything above 15K (according to recent tests), but I can sense differences in my ring radiators and my slots.

I "feel" quite a difference between the two, but I am unsure which is better. Should I just give it up and go with the rings, which sound louder (possibly due to my ancient ears abused over the ages, sensing that little 12K bump) or should I go with the slots which "feel" more accurate. I have six of each and four N7000 crossovers, to set them up safely.

My newest project involves a front pair for a Home theater set up with two cabs, right and left, sporting singles of E140s, 2370s, 2425s and either of the rockin' big ultra tweets.


I have built a single test cab to assess my results, mainly worried at first how my cabs will support the low end response, due to how my "custom sizing to fit my need" will affect low frequency response, but I am now even more toiled by which super tweet to use.

Suggestions?

[Mr. Widget]

From your post I'm going to guess you are referring to bullets as "ring radiators"... ring radiator is the term for the diaphragm style. The 077/2405, 075/2402, 076/2406, and 2404 "Baby Butt" tweeters all use annular ring diaphragms.

As for the bullets sounding louder than the slots... They are 5dB more sensitive, so if you don't have a proper compensating network in the system, yes they will certainly be louder.



Widget

[BeDome]

From your post I'm going to guess you are referring to bullets as "ring radiators"... ring radiator is the term for the diaphragm style. The 077/2405, 075/2402, 076/2406, and 2404 "Baby Butt" tweeters all use annular ring diaphragms.

As for the bullets sounding louder than the slots... They are 5dB more sensitive, so if you don't have a proper compensating network in the system, yes they will certainly be louder.




Widget


I have so far just used single caps (6dB/octave) and tried to figure which works with the horn and bass the best. Obviously, I have more work to do, but I am troubled by how much difference I "feel" when I am not supposed to hear these frequencies. I am tempted to go with the feel and just use the slots, then figure out the balance as I continue developing the system.

I am concerned that I can hear/sense so much difference when my ears are presumably trash these days. My inclination is to go with the slots, because they seem to have so much more clarity, whether or not I can hear it.

Sucks to have old (fifty nine year old) rock and roll ears!! I no longer trust them as I once could. :eek:

[BeDome]

From your post I'm going to guess you are referring to bullets as "ring radiators"... ring radiator is the term for the diaphragm style. The 077/2405, 075/2402, 076/2406, and 2404 "Baby Butt" tweeters all use annular ring diaphragms.

As for the bullets sounding louder than the slots... They are 5dB more sensitive, so if you don't have a proper compensating network in the system, yes they will certainly be louder.




Widget


I have so far just used single caps (6dB/octave) and tried to figure which works with the horn and bass the best. Obviously, I have more work to do, but I am troubled by how much difference I "feel" when I am not supposed to hear these frequencies. I am tempted to go with the feel and just use the slots, then figure out the balance as I continue developing the system.

I am concerned that I can hear/sense so much difference when my ears are presumably trash these days. My inclination is to go with the slots, because they seem to have so much more clarity, whether or not I can hear it.

Sucks to have old (fifty nine year old) rock and roll ears!! I no longer trust them as I once could. :eek:



This is what I am calling slots
58764


This is what I am calling rings

58765

[Mr. Widget]

I have so far just used single caps (6dB/octave) and tried to figure which works with the horn and bass the best. Obviously, I have more work to do, but I am troubled by how much difference I "feel" when I am not supposed to hear these frequencies.Nothing to be troubled about... a 6dB/octave slope is very shallow. This means that even a 1uF cap which is a "20KHz" first order filter at 8 ohms will pass a significant amount of signal at 5 KHz... especially if you are not padding the tweeter.


Widget

[Robh3606]

The biggest difference between the slots and the bullets are last octave response and dispersion. If you will notice JBL never used the bullets in the monitors. They go out an extra 5K and don't turn into flashlights in the horizontal axis. They get very directional in the vertical axis so when you set them up make sure they are at ear level when you are seated. Probably what you are hearing is the difference in the dispersion between the 2. The slots do a much better job of filling the room with HF.

Rob

[toddalin]

Sitting on axis, I find that the major difference, other than some HF extension of the slots, is the inherent dip in response at ~9kHz which is substantially deeper on the rings. This dip is what is removing intelligability from the voice (and some sizzle out of cymbols) and why you find the slots have more "clarity." My ears tell me the same thing as does my 61 band RTA.

[ivica]

Sitting on axis, I find that the major difference, other than some HF extension of the slots, is the inherent dip in response at ~9kHz which is substantially deeper on the rings. This dip is what is removing intelligability from the voice (and some sizzle out of cymbols) and why you find the slots have more "clarity." My ears tell me the same thing as does my 61 band RTA.

It seems that at JBL were aware of the mentioned "under 10kHz dip "
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?6368-Ring-Radiator-Comparisons&p=319031&viewfull=1#post319031

as older networks example 3133, etc. for UHF driver has some over-boost around 9kHz

but the worse is VHF to UHF 'comb effect', due to drivers positions differences.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?24283-4344-Mk-II-network&p=247755&viewfull=1#post247755


Regards
Ivica

[BeDome]

The biggest difference between the slots and the bullets are last octave response and dispersion. If you will notice JBL never used the bullets in the monitors. They go out an extra 5K and don't turn into flashlights in the horizontal axis. They get very directional in the vertical axis so when you set them up make sure they are at ear level when you are seated. Probably what you are hearing is the difference in the dispersion between the 2. The of hearing aidslots do a much better job of filling the room with HF.

Rob

I have decided to just use the slots and be done with toiling myself.

Dispersion is the main reason, since I have moved around the room (few feet at a time, being anal with the analyzer - driver in the center of the room) simply using my antique Rane analyzer mic set up, in my third perfunctory testing stage.


So reason for choosing slots - dispersion seems beneficial, confirmed by simple mechanical means.



PERSONAL HISTORY NOTE:
On another kind of interesting point, as I mentioned my hearing is not to be trusted anymore:

My last ear doc demonstrated why I would not be satisfied with any kind of hearing aid on my left ear, to offset my old worn out rock and roll ears, by fitting me with a sort of transducer attached to the "mastoid bone" which proved that, straight into the bone, I can still sense 22KHz and I am using that sense more in that ear than my eardrum/three little bones.

He then fit me with a prosthetic aid inside my left ear that I could hear with my right ear (through the bones) before my calcified left "three little bones" could respond.


Talk ABOUT :banghead:

[BeDome]

Oops!!