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Lee in Montreal
03-01-2013, 12:39 PM
Just got those and installed them this morning. Excuse me for the hodge podge of part used for the instal. I will clean-up my act later ;-)
Will try to stick to a two-way system.

First impressions are positive sonicwise. I crossed at 350hz with an 18db slope and applied somme massive correction from 3.5Khz and up. I sure don't have the sizzling highs of the 2405, but so far the sound is pretty clear, and well sprread across the room. According to JBL's litterature, the horn is loading down to 350Hz, and will have an even coverage from 500Hz and up.

The only thing I don't like about those is how third-world the fabrication is. I am used to nice overlays of fiberglass or composites. Those horns are just gobs of "horse hair" mixed with epoxy. Not very sexy. Certainly not nice enough for the $1k asking price on new units.

http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/885233_550757881622251_1080201394_o.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/885049_550757824955590_1770106498_o.jpg

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/858738_550757831622256_817133380_o.jpg

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/883001_550757838288922_1701708698_o.jpg

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/859070_550757864955586_1746452243_o.jpg

grumpy
03-01-2013, 01:15 PM
The newer 236x horns are split and use different construction (ABS?), IIRC.
Nice setup. I retired mine to the garage. Too imposing for a living room (for most :) ) and so clean sounding, the volume had to be watched (easy to over do it). Very top end was good but not great with 2446 (stock diaphragms), could use a tweeter for top octave. Very fun to listen to!

Lee in Montreal
03-01-2013, 01:25 PM
I am using 2445 drivers with their original bright/harsh titanium diaphragms. It seems it's a good match. When summer comes, I will take them out for a little spa. Smooth sanding and a light coat of dull black to remove the small surface scratches

grumpy
03-01-2013, 02:00 PM
2445s are what I started with... Moving to 2446s sounded better (more extended) to me... Plots of the 2446 look a bit "hashier" up there, but lifted ... I'm sure some would like the 2445 sound better... A different use/music type could make the 2445 a good stopping point.

Lee in Montreal
03-01-2013, 02:41 PM
I have some 2441 with original diaphragms as well as some 2440 with Radians. I will see over the course of time what I prefer. So far, I love having the mids and highs emanating from the same source. Definitely not point-source, but as a two-way system, it is more lively than many two-ways I've heard.

withTarragon
03-02-2013, 10:58 AM
I have also used the 2360 with 2446 driver in a two way setup. I liked the sound, but I found the 2360 sounds best if you can cross it higher (in my case around 600 Hz). Otherwise I noticed a bit of harshness. I assumed this was due to pushing too much air through that diffraction slot.
Enjoy

Lee in Montreal
03-02-2013, 11:27 AM
I have also used the 2360 with 2446 driver in a two way setup. I liked the sound, but I found the 2360 sounds best if you can cross it higher (in my case around 600 Hz). Otherwise I noticed a bit of harshness. I assumed this was due to pushing too much air through that diffraction slot.
Enjoy

"pushing too much air through that diffraction slot" is an argument I see on different forums. I hardly understand it for the following reason. The 2" throat has 3.1415sq.in area while the slot is roughly 3/4" x 15" and therefore 11.25 sq.in which is more than 3 times the area. If there's indeed too high a flow at the slot, then there's three time too much at the throat. ;)

There's probably a better explanation why people don't like crossing over below that frequency.

withTarragon
03-03-2013, 06:38 AM
You may well be correct.
There is the phenomenon (sounds harsh) and the possible explanation (too much air being pushed). Let's concentrate on the phenomenon. Choice of crossover point is complex and your bass bin's bandwidth may not allow a higher crossover point. However, if you can then give it a try and see how it measures and sounds. Two-way systems are inherently tricky and various compromises need to be juggled, but I think it is worth it. Good luck.

Lee in Montreal
03-03-2013, 07:00 AM
Two-way systems are inherently tricky and various compromises need to be juggled, but I think it is worth it. Good luck.

Using those 4520 bass cabinets is only temporary. I will install a pair of 10cubic ft bass reflex cabs with two 2226 in each of them. Those shall reach 500/600Hz easy. The bottom octave will be handled by a 2245 in a 10 cubic ft cabinet. I shall get a 2.1 system ;)

subwoof
03-03-2013, 09:35 AM
the large, stiff media as used in house humidifiers is a great way to keep dust bunnies ( and fingers ) out of the throat, diffuse the pattern ( that pencil point of death ) down the middle and by adding sculpted layers, nice cosmetics. The 2360 horns that I used in my rental house system were coated on the back with car undercoating...dampens the sound quite a bit ( helps with that very low 500hz area ) and if desired, you can toss something onto the sticky surface for appearance before it hardens. Back in the day every single altec 811/511 had to have this treatment to be remotely usable. BTW a pair of urei 813B cabinets are available.....

Lee in Montreal
03-03-2013, 09:42 AM
Thanks for the tip. Adding some mass to the thin fiberglass will indeed help reach lower. I will use German Body Shutz this summer when come time to repaint the horn (next Spring).




http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads2/wurth1ab1069128542.jpg

Mr. Widget
03-03-2013, 12:06 PM
Using those 4520 bass cabinets is only temporary. I will install a pair of 10cubic ft bass reflex cabs with two 2226 in each of them. Those shall reach 500/600Hz easy. The bottom octave will be handled by a 2245 in a 10 cubic ft cabinet. I shall get a 2.1 system ;)30 cubic feet of cabinets for your 2 channel stereo? That is a hell of a commitment!


Widget

Lee in Montreal
03-03-2013, 12:15 PM
30 cubic feet of cabinets for your 2 channel stereo? That is a hell of a commitment! 2226 drivers seem to offer decent bass in a 5 cubic ft enclosure tuned to 40Hz. Two woofers per side and you get 20cubic.ft per pair of cabinets. Plus 10 for the 2245. Each cabinet is roughly 36" x 24" x 24" while the back of each cabinet will be rounded. It's not that big. And don't forget that a 2360 horn is 36" deep with driver... BTW how big is a 4350? :eek:

Mr. Widget
03-03-2013, 12:57 PM
BTW how big is a 4350? :eek:Too big to live in my house!


Widget

Lee in Montreal
03-05-2013, 06:33 AM
Moved the big 4520 to the garage, and reinstalled a smaller set of cabs. The 2226 woofers need some serious equalization (8db at 40Hz) to get any extension due to the small cab - (3,5cft tuned to 47Hz). I could do without a sub on most musical content. Overall, the 2 way system sounds good. Still adjusting to get extra crisp on the 2360 horns. Understanding they are movie theater horns designed to cover up to, say, 15Khz, and not musical horns. I miss the sizzle from the 2405 ;-) - Long term project is to add a 10cft 2245 sub at the minimum, and perhaps build 10cft cabs for twin woofers. I have all summer for that...

58298

58299

58300

58301

58302

1audiohack
03-05-2013, 08:23 AM
Hi Lee,

2360's are big fun aren't they. I still like mine a lot. How much EQ Re you putting to them? I found that over the long run they sound most natural with the JBL CD compensation curve or something close to that.

When it comes to drivers and diaphragms, in my opinion, the 2446 or a 2450 with the ribbed Ti diaphragm sound the best when running without tweeters. It's not clean HF energy but its there but it's there. A real 2441 sounds worse and Be diaphragms even worse as they require more and more EQ on top. By about 12kHz the big drivers are operating under the electrical and physical constraints of an 18dB low pass filter. It's the Ribbed Ti diaphragm ringing on, superimposed on the clean output that is responsible for the extra output up high.

As for the harshness way down low, I don't think it has much to do with the amount of air moving in the diffraction slot as it is the amount of air moving in the front cavity, between the diaphragm and phase plug. 194dB is about the limit that air can be modulated without gross distortion, that is quite easily achieved in the airspace in the front cavity operating at a 10 to 1 compression ratio, especially at low frequencies where the diaphragm motion is large.

Anyway I hope you have fun with them!

All the best,
Barry.

Lee in Montreal
03-05-2013, 08:44 AM
How much EQ Re you putting to them?

I have just begun tweaking them. Perhaps I am asking them to sound brighter than they should. I am currently listening to as much music as I can to find the bst compromise between styles, punch and hearing fatigue. So far, here's what I have. Also what sounds great at low volume seems to harsh at high volume, and what is fine at high volume is dull when played quietly. So far, I am trying to tweak toward "flatter". Step by step.

58303

4313B
03-05-2013, 08:44 AM
Just use a D2 (lacks counterweight properties though).

They aren't meant to play quietly so just go with what sounds right really loud. :p

Have you tried cutting the bottom end instead of jacking up the top end?

Lee in Montreal
03-05-2013, 08:46 AM
Just use a D2 (lacks counterweight properties though).

D2?

This? http://www.jblpro.com/press/Jan12/JBL_WinterNAMM_D2.html

BMS also makes one. Two drivers in one.
http://bmsspeakers.com/index.php?id=bms_4592nd

1audiohack
03-05-2013, 09:04 AM
BMS, don't do it. It's not only not the same thing, it has some insurmountable problems I believe. I couldn't make them work anywhere near my satisfaction.

Lee in Montreal
03-05-2013, 09:24 AM
So far, my next step of exploration is pretty simple.

- Just add a 2245-based sub as I miss the 20-40Hz octave
- Or remove the 2226s and make two cabs a 2245 in each and cross my fingers I can reach 500Hz (which I think won't happen). Or cross at 200 with a slow slope.

I am trying to keep it as simple as possible. Lee

Lee in Montreal
03-05-2013, 03:29 PM
I have also sent for production a small batch of 2506C stands made from 1/8" aluminum.

58317

Lee in Montreal
03-14-2013, 01:05 PM
I just made a small batch of 2506 stands repros. They are cut from aluminum for lighter weight. I am testing the stability. It holds but I will probably bolt them to a piece of nice plywood so that it is more balanced front to rear. I increased the track (width) for added stability. Seems to work fine. And I considering I have been looking for a set of original stands for weeks, well, a man's got to do what man's got to do. Fabricate them.

Lee




58400584015840258403

badman
03-14-2013, 02:27 PM
I like active speaker controls, but the CD eq shaping should always be done with a series cap speaker-level, IME. It does require care be taken so that spiky impedance profiles don't mess up the filter, but the reward is that your drivers have a nice protection mechanism.

And EQ is almost always best done by cutting rather than boosting, as hinted at earlier in the thread.

Very cool looking setup- I always liked your "projecting" 2235H cabs.

frank23
03-14-2013, 02:42 PM
I have a pair of 2360 in my garage that I'd like to hook up once. I have a pair of 375, but they are attached to the horn throats of the Olympus set they belong so, and I don't want to break apart their 40+ year marriage. Would the 2420 through the 1">2" adaptor (can't remember the type, but I have 2 of them) work also on the 2360?

Lee in Montreal
03-14-2013, 03:50 PM
I like the idea of using a cap in serie. And it indeed adds protection. Anyone has substituted electronic correction for a simple cap? This 2445 is 16 Ohms with the original diaphragm. Actually I put back a Solen 47ĩF cap for protection. That's a first order filter at something like 200Hz. Well outside of the range.

Lee in Montreal
03-14-2013, 03:55 PM
I have a pair of 2360 in my garage that I'd like to hook up once. I have a pair of 375, but they are attached to the horn throats of the Olympus set they belong so, and I don't want to break apart their 40+ year marriage. Would the 2420 through the 1">2" adaptor (can't remember the type, but I have 2 of them) work also on the 2360?

I don't know if the 2420 will go as low as 4" diaphragm, but it should go higher as the lesser mass leads to less mass break. Why not try them? The more I live with those horns, the more I like them. I could be 2 feet away, or 10 feet away, they don't break my ears. and the sound is so nicely spread around the room.

Carl_Huff
03-14-2013, 04:26 PM
Great job Lee! I am impressed with your skills. Kudos!
___________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

macaroonie
03-14-2013, 05:39 PM
Lee have you been hibernating. The D2 works in a totally different fashion to the BMS. The BMS is a two way coaxial comression driver. It has a 3" MF annular dia and a 1.75" dome dia , passive crossover somewhere in the mix I assume.

The JBL D2 has two annular dias that work like this :applaud: and the air in between is collected and fed to the phase plug and out to the waveguide.

See here http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor/page6
post 88 for a cross section.

If you have genuinely missed all the hoo ha about this read the whole thread and then go to the JBL pro site and get the skinny and then you tube anything you can find about the VTX series line arrays. They use 3 D2's per box and the field reports are glowing with praise.

Lee in Montreal
03-14-2013, 06:00 PM
I love that dude.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxQrXhndphE

Damn, how long until we can see some D2 drivers pop up on the used market at decent prices?

macaroonie
03-14-2013, 06:19 PM
Thats Mark Gander. He created the Cabaret series which kinda set JBL on its path to being as big as it is in pro / tour/ live sound

Lee in Montreal
03-14-2013, 06:37 PM
Thats Mark Gander. He created the Cabaret series which kinda set JBL on its path to being as big as it is in pro / tour/ live sound
And he kept the pony tail. I love California. ;-)

Early 1980s I think.

http://www.audioheritage.org/images/jbl/photos/pro-speakers/thumbs/cabaret_small.jpg

ivica
03-15-2013, 05:38 AM
Lee have you been hibernating. The D2 works in a totally different fashion to the BMS. The BMS is a two way coaxial comression driver. It has a 3" MF annular dia and a 1.75" dome dia , passive crossover somewhere in the mix I assume.

The JBL D2 has two annular dias that work like this :applaud: and the air in between is collected and fed to the phase plug and out to the waveguide.

See here http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor/page6
post 88 for a cross section.

If you have genuinely missed all the hoo ha about this read the whole thread and then go to the JBL pro site and get the skinny and then you tube anything you can find about the VTX series line arrays. They use 3 D2's per box and the field reports are glowing with praise.

Hi macaroonie,

Just to be MORE PRECISE: BMS 4590/92 has TWO annular diaphragms too,
but with different purpose:
one larger for mid section ( 3.5-inch vice coil), and
one smaller (1.75-inch) annular (NOT DOME type) for high section,
as can be seen on the attached figures.
They are working 'independently' with their 'own' phase plugs, but with 'common' short horn, while JBL D2 diaphragms are intended to be used to work 'together' (compound).....

But for either of the drivers it would be very difficult to construct the horn the would satisfy the dispersion for such large frequency range (say from about 1kHz to 20kHz), without introducing some kind of diffraction slots. So, it would be very interesting to see some 'independent' listening tests of JBL new horn (M2 monitor) connected to the D2 drivers. I will not be surprised, if over 12kH, that the dispersion of M2 would not be over 30 degs

Best Regards
Ivica.

Lee in Montreal
03-15-2013, 06:17 AM
Very cool looking setup- I always liked your "projecting" 2235H cabs.

The cabs were initially designed for a 12" Kef B300 at 80 litres capacity (2.8cft). Then I adapted the cab for a JBL 15" driver. I needed more area to fit the driver, as well as more volume. The extension allowed both. I initially tried the (now) 95 litre cabinet (3,4cft) with a 2235h. Sadly, the 2235 needed more volume. At least 50% more to feel at ease. Then I went with 2225s and it was better but the ideal volume of 75l was exceeded and the woofer felt too soft, not enough lively, not to mention it is not a bass reflex driver. Not there yet. I did some testing with a driver that I thought I hated : the 2226. But thinking about it, it was specifically designed for a small bass reflex enclosure with its higher Qts and lower Vas. Doing some modeling and using the Vab = 5.7 * Vas * Qts^2 = 94litre formula, I realized the match was perfect. I tuned the reflex port to 47Hz and am now quite delighted. Bass goes deep enough, yet it is tight on top. I slightly tamed the midrange though. The simple two-way system sounds very good and works on all kind of musics. I will add a 12cft 2245 sub and shall be done with it. Is the 2226 perfect? Not. It needs some processing, but it can take a lot of it.

That "forward cabin" design is something I may have seen in Europe in the mid 1970s. I always digged having that modular extension. I don't remember the brand though

BTW That little bugger of a cab was built with 1" presswood and lot of bracing. It weights a ton. Probably around 200lbs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/Kef speakers/Kef_Build_18.jpg

Lee in Montreal
03-15-2013, 07:10 PM
I bolted the aluminum stands to a piece of half inch thick Russian Birch plywood for extra stability, and that's probably how it is going to stay for a couple of years.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL parts factory/DSCN2484_zps49a9db1b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/Lee_Vuong/JBL parts factory/DSCN2482_zpsf1620056.jpg

Lee in Montreal
03-16-2013, 06:10 AM
Can anyone help me calculate a proper capacitor to equals the 6db/octave compensation at 3.5Khz on a 16 Ohm driver? ;-)

Ruediger
03-16-2013, 06:50 AM
Can anyone help me calculate a proper capacitor to equals the 6db/octave compensation at 3.5Khz on a 16 Ohm driver? ;-)

It requires more than just a capacitor. See the 4430, 4435 for example. It requires a resistive network and a capacitor which bypasses that network. The bypass may also e a series resonance circuit.

The easiest way to do that is with a digital xover.

Ruediger

NickH
03-16-2013, 03:21 PM
Can anyone help me calculate a proper capacitor to equals the 6db/octave compensation at 3.5Khz on a 16 Ohm driver? ;-)


2.839 micro farad capacitor. Erse has a calculator on there website. Its a nice one. Has them all.

Lee in Montreal
03-17-2013, 03:59 PM
http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/552864-jbl_2506c_stand_repros_for_jbl_2360_horns.jpg

ivica
03-18-2013, 02:09 AM
Can anyone help me calculate a proper capacitor to equals the 6db/octave compensation at 3.5Khz on a 16 Ohm driver? ;-)

Hi Lee,

Generally speaking C= 1/(6.2832*Fo*Zo),
so Fo=3500 Hz, Zd=16 ohm , attenuation of -6dB (Ro=16) ==> Zo = Zd*Ro/(Zd+Ro)= 256/32= 8 ohm ==> C= 5.7 uF,
but for different attenuation, different value of C would be get.

but such theoretical value has to be get AFTER the measurements,
in order to find out the real driver-horn response, and the sensitivity of the mid-bass (bass) driver in order to calculate the attenuation, and the influence of the 'high-pass" filter section.

Regards
Ivica

Lee in Montreal
03-18-2013, 05:35 AM
Hi Ivica. Thanks for the tech info. I am currently using an active crossover and two amps. Therefore levels can be infinitely altered. I know I can boost the frequency with the active crossover in order to get the CD correction (and that's what I am doing now) but using a passive way to attenuate the signal and replicate the CD curve is just a technical challenge. Also, so far I am quite happy with this simple two-way system. The next step is either to add a 2245 sub, or replace the two 2226 by a pair of 2245. I would loose midbass punch but would gain bottom end grunt. The result would probably be a more natural bass that I dont have to boost around 40Hz (where the 2226 dies).

ivica
03-18-2013, 06:41 AM
Hi Ivica. Thanks for the tech info. I am currently using an active crossover and two amps. Therefore levels can be infinitely altered. I know I can boost the frequency with the active crossover in order to get the CD correction (and that's what I am doing now) but using a passive way to attenuate the signal and replicate the CD curve is just a technical challenge. Also, so far I am quite happy with this simple two-way system. The next step is either to add a 2245 sub, or replace the two 2226 by a pair of 2245. I would loose midbass punch but would gain bottom end grunt. The result would probably be a more natural bass that I dont have to boost around 40Hz (where the 2226 dies).

Hi Lee,

May be You can start with something like this

Regards
Ivica

ivica
03-20-2013, 02:30 AM
Hi Ivica. Thanks for the tech info. I am currently using an active crossover and two amps. Therefore levels can be infinitely altered. I know I can boost the frequency with the active crossover in order to get the CD correction (and that's what I am doing now) but using a passive way to attenuate the signal and replicate the CD curve is just a technical challenge. Also, so far I am quite happy with this simple two-way system. The next step is either to add a 2245 sub, or replace the two 2226 by a pair of 2245. I would loose midbass punch but would gain bottom end grunt. The result would probably be a more natural bass that I dont have to boost around 40Hz (where the 2226 dies).

Hi Lee,

Any trial ???

Regards
Ivica

Lee in Montreal
03-20-2013, 05:02 AM
I didn't try it because i should get about 15db boost at 20Khz from 3,5Khz. The graph you showed in the previous post isn't there.

ivica
03-20-2013, 06:16 AM
I didn't try it because i should get about 15db boost at 20Khz from 3,5Khz. The graph you showed in the previous post isn't there.

Hi Lee,

Sorry, I have not been clear enough, so may be attached figure would explain:
with the suggested network I have taken that the 'Driver-Horn' response would start to decline from 3.5kHz ( -6dD/Octave), so under 'usual' expectation that Your driver can be 'modeled' as 12 ohm load suggested network would 'compensate' about 16dB at 20khz, relative to the 1kHz driver output).
So on my previous post expectable driver-horn response was presented.
Here with red line network with 12-ohm load response is presented.

Regards
Ivica

Lee in Montreal
03-21-2013, 01:44 PM
Now it makes sense ;-) Thanks
I will try that this weekend.

ivica
03-25-2013, 07:41 AM
............
I will try that this weekend.

Hi Lee,

Any more info ?

Regards
Ivica

Mostlydiy
04-11-2013, 06:06 AM
This is interesting. The 2360A certainly is a horn I would like to try out. Nice work! To bad to see 2360 getting thrown in the garbage earlier in the thread though...

/Mostly

NickH
04-11-2013, 07:46 AM
Id certianly love to try a pair. But unless you can find them in your area. Shipping them is ridiculous.



Nick

pentictonklaus
04-12-2013, 09:16 AM
Lee !
You might try a JBL M 552. I think it has a EQ curve for the 2360 built in.

Lee in Montreal
04-12-2013, 09:37 AM
I have played with a 6db high pass filter and it seems to do the work.

BTW If you guys are interested in some JBL 2360s and live in Ohio, there are a few units that haven't been sent to the dumpster. Check Eric on AVS Forum. BTW Nobody ships 2360 horns. Too big (requiring a pallet) and too expensive. I suspect that the same phenomenom that took place with the 2390 slant horns will happen with the 2360s. They got all trashed because they were big, for people to recognize their value two decades later, commanding insane prices...

Mostlydiy
04-12-2013, 09:53 AM
Im feeling kind of stupid saying this again but I might have a par of 2360A incoming as well :)

/Mostly

Lee in Montreal
04-12-2013, 09:56 AM
Im feeling kind of stupid saying this again but I might have a par of 2360A incoming as well :)

Don't feel kinda stupid. Feel kinda lucky ;-)

Lee

Mostlydiy
04-12-2013, 10:19 AM
I am lucky :) Just figured Iīve said it too many times in other threads already. Lots of things incoming... I heard you missed out on the sissling from the 2405. Do you think that another 2" driver might fill the space better? Im thinking 475Nd or 476Be perhaps? I know they are rare and hard to come by but theoretically?

/Mostly

Lee in Montreal
04-12-2013, 10:31 AM
Actually, it is not so mch the sizzling of the 2405 that I am "missing" but the "point source" that I got used to with other horns' directivity. By design, the 2360 simply widens the source and spreads the spectrum equally. So, if you run the 2360 in a small room, there's a loss in precision because the sound bounces from everywhere, especially sidewalls, while with regular horns the beam is narrower from the upper mids and above.

Mostlydiy
04-12-2013, 10:42 AM
Actually, it is not so mch the sizzling of the 2405 that I am "missing" but the "point source" that I got used to with other horns' directivity. By design, the 2360 simply widens the source and spreads the spectrum equally. So, if you run the 2360 in a small room, there's a loss in precision because the sound bounces from everywhere, especially sidewalls, while with regular horns the beam is narrower from the upper mids and above.

I figured that beeming from high frequencies in certain horns is something "un wanted" so to speak. I have ~500Hz round tractrix horns and I know they are beeming when crossed to high. It sure does narrow down the sweet spot.

/Mostly

NickH
04-12-2013, 06:52 PM
I'm guessing it boils down to what you want. I like a nice sized sweet spot. I don't want the head rest vise on my comfy chair

How wide is your room Lee?

Lee in Montreal
04-13-2013, 03:30 PM
How wide is your room Lee? The room is part of my "office". About 15' by 25' with 8' ceilings. The thing is with such a wide and equal dispersion across the spectrum, there's no more sweetspot, which was the goal of those horns. The whole theater received "equal treatment"... BTW on another subject, I was battling with crossover problems when cutting two ranges at the same frequency. I have always used the Butterworth method, and it didn't sound right. Then I tried this morning the Linkwitz-Riley filters and suddenly the sky opened up and a ray of light fell on me...

Here's why
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkwitz–Riley_filter

Mostlydiy
04-14-2013, 01:38 AM
pentictonklaus
M 552 ?
Lee !
You might try a JBL M 552. I think it has a EQ curve for the 2360 built in.



FOI

Might be an interesting read regarding the EQ question.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?26115-JBL-M552-CCBFREQ-measured!

I also have my system at my office. It definitely has some advantages. The WAF factor is more or less out the window and after working hours and on weekends playing Black Sabbath 120dB doesnīt really bothers anyone :)

/Mostly

Lee in Montreal
04-14-2013, 05:33 AM
I also have my system at my office.

My office / man cave is my house's basement. Sound system, shelves full of records, desk, computer. I design and distribute performance parts for mainly BMW racecars. Having music all day long is a great way to spend a good time, while working.

The improvement I did yestrday by selecting a Linkwitz-Riley filter is huge. No more bump at the crossover point. I had the DCX time align the sub / midbass/horns (2245/2226/2360) and it now sounds fanstatic. Music and movies. I watched "The book of Eli" last night and it was impressive.

JBL offers the 4645 bass cabinet (a 2242 woofer in a 9cft enclosure) for cinema purpose, to be used with 2360 or the smaller 2380. Therefore I think it is possible to build a two-way system around that 2242 woofer crossed at around 400Hz. Which is (you probaby already guessed it) my next attempt, even though I am already very happy with the 2226.

So far, I definitely recommend using those big elephant cheeks. 2360 horns are great. If you can find a pair before they are crushed and sent to the dumpster... like many of those below :eek:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/images/large/JBL_cabinets.jpg

Mostlydiy
04-15-2013, 01:57 AM
You havnīt considered serching for a 1500Sub or W1500H to fill upp the space below those 2226 instead of going 18"?

Lee in Montreal
04-15-2013, 03:34 AM
You havnīt considered serching for a 1500Sub or W1500H to fill upp the space below those 2226 instead of going 18"? 2245 woofers are easier to get and I already had one.

eb140
04-15-2013, 08:40 AM
Hey guys, this is a response to the topic of 2360 horns in Ohio.

Just wanted to let you know that Eric at DIY Sound Group no longer has any. I was just there Saturday evening to pick up the last 3 and plan on using 2 of them which means I have one extra if anyone is interested.

Lee in Montreal
04-15-2013, 10:33 AM
Congrats on your new acquisitions. I'd recommend to keep that third one as a spare.

1audiohack
04-15-2013, 11:42 AM
Spare? When you figure out what the failure mode of a 2360 is do let me know. ;)

grumpy
04-15-2013, 12:08 PM
Lol, you'd think, huh. I have an earlyish one that has a
hole in the front surface... apparently a large bubble between
the glass back and resin front allowed it to be pushed in... (Doh).

Lee in Montreal
04-15-2013, 12:13 PM
Don't they also crack at the flange?

I think that the second generation of 2360 horns that was done by injection molding fixed many production problems.

grumpy
04-15-2013, 12:18 PM
I could envision that happening where it bolts to the throat, but you'd have to hit it pretty hard (or with a lot of leverage). The newer (3rd gen?) 2pc/split version (not counting throat) is supposed to hold the pattern better (and be -much- easier to ship.

Lee in Montreal
04-15-2013, 02:25 PM
While typing this, I am facing the 2360 horns. I have that vision of two big elephant butts that I can't get rid of... That or, Dolly Parton's Greatest Tits...

NickH
04-15-2013, 06:08 PM
:eek:
While typing this, I am facing the 2360 horns. I have that vision of two big elephant butts that I can't get rid of... That or, Dolly Parton's Greatest Tits...


:wtf::lol_fit:

Mostlydiy
04-15-2013, 11:42 PM
2245 woofers are easier to get and I already had one.

I see your point. I just figured there is a reason you donīt see two way hifi systems based on an 18" very often. I think the 2226 will sound better together with the 2360 thats all. Just my thoughts, no experience with 18" what so ever :)

/Mostly

Lee in Montreal
04-16-2013, 04:38 AM
I see your point. I just figured there is a reason you donīt see two way hifi systems based on an 18" very often. I think the 2226 will sound better together with the 2360 thats all. Just my thoughts, no experience with 18" what so ever :)

/Mostly Actually, if I use the 2245 as a sub only for the 20 to 40Hz range, it is because it sounds muddy for any frequency above 150Hz in my opinion. Nonetheless I still want to experiment later by replacing the two 15" 2226 by two 18" 2242 which I feel can reach 400Hz wit a bit of equalization to tame down anything above 100Hz. My goal is to test a two-way system based on an 18" 2242 and 2360 horn and see if I can do without an auxiliary sub.

eb140
04-16-2013, 08:03 AM
Spare? When you figure out what the failure mode of a 2360 is do let me know. ;)

Everything has a failure mode, the unknown is the force value! :p

eb140
04-16-2013, 08:07 AM
I could envision that happening where it bolts to the throat, but you'd have to hit it pretty hard (or with a lot of leverage). The newer (3rd gen?) 2pc/split version (not counting throat) is supposed to hold the pattern better (and be -much- easier to ship.

I agree with this - the flange introduces a terrible load path into the horn flare. However, this could be remedied with simple ribs that connect the flange to the actual horn geometry.

Lee in Montreal
04-16-2013, 04:58 PM
In regard of the multi-piece plastic 2360B. I definitely have to find a set ;-)

http://www.hifido.co.jp/KWjbl/G0207/E/110-10/C11-60933-21545-00/

1audiohack
04-16-2013, 06:43 PM
I think I know where a new pair of those are! In fact I had my hands on one an hour ago. Look on the bay under 4675C-HFA.

Mostlydiy
04-16-2013, 11:25 PM
In regard of the multi-piece plastic 2360B. I definitely have to find a set ;-)



They sure look fine, but isnt the dispersion pattern of the 2360A prefered over the 2360B in short throw applications/home hifi installations?

/Mostly

Lee in Montreal
04-17-2013, 03:50 AM
I think I know where a new pair of those are! In fact I had my hands on one an hour ago. Look on the bay under 4675C-HFA.

Very nice. Seems like JBL solved many problems with this version of the horns. Much easier to ship and stock. $1100 is not a bad price with the drivers. I'll wait until I find the horns only, without drivers. I wonder if the original aluminum throat adapters work with the second generation main horns. I can see they are out of Las Vegas. Are they yours? ;-)

1audiohack
04-17-2013, 07:45 AM
They're not mine. This guy has a bunch of 2226's for sale and I saw the horns while I was there sorting woofers.

NickH
04-17-2013, 08:18 AM
Well thats a novel idea. Is there a seal of some sort on all the flanges? I guess there would have to be wouldn't there. Would make it much easier to fabricate them.

Man I need to learn to work with fiberglass.

Nick

Lee in Montreal
04-17-2013, 08:52 AM
http://cdn-ak.f.st-hatena.com/images/fotolife/j/jamnopapa/20090329/20090329141941.jpg

http://www.auduo-1.com/newgoods/I-J/JBL/2360B/005.jpg

grumpy
04-17-2013, 09:17 AM
The new ones are a form of ABS, if I recall correctly (vs fiberglass).
Similar to what can be used for auto door panels. There's some text
describing the multiple benefits somewhere here ...

NickH
04-17-2013, 09:34 AM
The new ones are a form of ABS, if I recall correctly (vs fiberglass).
Similar to what can be used for auto door panels. There's some text
describing the multiple benefits somewhere here ...

I do recall reading that before. Just forgot. Its a lot easier to diy fiberglass then diy injection modling though, LOL.


Nick

Lee in Montreal
04-17-2013, 09:44 AM
I do recall reading that before. Just forgot. Its a lot easier to diy fiberglass then diy injection modling though, LOL.

The only downside to plastic injection is the high cost of the molds. Everything else is on the positive side. Parts are way more precise. They are stronger and you can modulate hardness and density by picking your type of plastic. And let's not forget repeatitivity. Every single plastic horn is exactly the same as any other. While not two fiberglass horns are the same. Platic injection molding makes the horn a better product.

NickH
04-17-2013, 01:27 PM
The only downside to plastic injection is the high cost of the molds. Everything else is on the positive side. Parts are way more precise. They are stronger and you can modulate hardness and density by picking your type of plastic. And let's not forget repeatitivity. Every single plastic horn is exactly the same as any other. While not two fiberglass horns are the same. Platic injection molding makes the horn a better product.


No argument there. But its not possible to do diy injection molding. Unless your rich or maybe own a company that does it.


Nick

Lee in Montreal
04-17-2013, 05:19 PM
On a lower budget, it is possible to go with rotomolding. But it still requires to machine an aluminum mold (not two like for injection). But hey, JBL is rich and they wouldn't mind spending $20k on a single mold.

NickH
04-18-2013, 06:38 AM
On a lower budget, it is possible to go with rotomolding. But it still requires to machine an aluminum mold (not two like for injection). But hey, JBL is rich and they wouldn't mind spending $20k on a single mold.


At those prices they could make it back pretty quite.

Kwikas
02-13-2015, 01:24 PM
Actually, if I use the 2245 as a sub only for the 20 to 40Hz range, it is because it sounds muddy for any frequency above 150Hz in my opinion. Nonetheless I still want to experiment later by replacing the two 15" 2226 by two 18" 2242 which I feel can reach 400Hz wit a bit of equalization to tame down anything above 100Hz. My goal is to test a two-way system based on an 18" 2242 and 2360 horn and see if I can do without an auxiliary sub.

Hi Lee.
I know this is a little dated but did you get around to evaluating the dual 18's vs dual 2226's? If you did, what were your conclusions?

Lee in Montreal
02-16-2015, 01:58 PM
Hi Lee.
I know this is a little dated but did you get around to evaluating the dual 18's vs dual 2226's? If you did, what were your conclusions?

Sorry for the late reply. I did some testing. My system is currently set-up as two main cabinets (2226 + 2360) and a sub (2245). Over time, I realized I was not firing the sub most of the time. It gave me a drier bass which has some qualities. When firing the sub, the bottom end becomes too present. Good for the ego, but detracting from the music. So, basically, I elected to keep the 2226/2360 combo, assisted with a 2245 sub only from time to time. I have two bare 2245 baskets that I will use, one day. Just not now. ;-) I managed to eq the 2226 in such a way that I am not bothered not having 20-35Hz (Filtering = bandpass Q-0.8 at 35Hz - 12db boost)

Lee

dezmond
02-17-2015, 06:38 AM
Yes , the 2242 would blend much better .

Lee in Montreal
02-17-2015, 07:49 AM
Yes , the 2242 would blend much better .

The 2245 goes lower and integrates well. The onky thing is that I don't need sub 35Hz in my program ;-)
For home, I'd take 2245s anytime over 2242s which are sound reinforcement drivers.:D

Lee

DogBox
06-16-2019, 06:52 PM
http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/552864-jbl_2506c_stand_repros_for_jbl_2360_horns.jpg
Beautiful fabrication, Lee! ​(I could use one myself!)

Lee in Montreal
06-17-2019, 09:43 AM
Beautiful fabrication, Lee! ​(I could use one myself!)

I have one last set available (after all those years) if you are still interested. ;-)

Lee