Soundcraftsmen, same as the Hafler?

[still4given]

Hey guys,

Since we are having so much success with my Haflers, i thought I would take a look at my Soundcraftsmen PCR800. It seems to be doing the same thing so I checked the volt on the two caps in there. One reads 87VDC, 0VAC. The other reads 57VDC, 26VAC. I Also checked the DC voltage as I shut off the power switch. On the good one it reads high 80s and then starts dropping. The bad one goes instantly to 0 volts as soon as the switch is turned off. Looks like a bad cap to me. Now I pulled the caps and they are 11,000MFD 75V 85C. I can't seem to find 11000MFS. Do you think 10000 wil work OK? The next step up seems to be 18000 and those cans will not fit in the spot these go.

Thanks, Terry

[Alex Lancaster]

Terry:

Have You checked Your line voltage?, You are overdriving the 75V caps with 87VDC.

IMO, the 10,000 will work, You´ll have 10% less reserve, but if You don´t overdrive the amps You´ll be OK.

[Zilch]

Who's the manufacturer on those ones? Track them down via Google.

Also, is Soundcraftsmen still in business? I'd be talkin' to their service folks about replacements, and what the voltage SHOULD be on those caps. It's also likely shown on the schematic for that model.

Here, again, replace both caps, not just the bad one.

Sprague and Mallory make 15K at 75V, CDE has a 14K at 75V listed, and United Chem-Con makes both 10K and 15K at 100V. Same screw-terminal "Computer Grade," yes?

I'm just looking at the Newark paper catalog here. See them online and Allied, Mouser, others....

Panasonic shows a 10K at 100V at Digikey...

[still4given]

Originally posted by Alex Lancaster
Terry:

Have You checked Your line voltage?, You are overdriving the 75V caps with 87VDC.

IMO, the 10,000 will work, You´ll have 10% less reserve, but if You don´t overdrive the amps You´ll be OK.

Thanks Alex,

Yes I thought about the fact that I am above 75VDC. I Also wondered because this amp uses 8 MOSFETs and my Hafler uses 12. I thought it was odd that this one would need more voltage. Could there be something else that is driving the voltage so high?



Who's the manufacturer on those ones? Track them down via Google.

Also, is Soundcraftsmen still in business? I'd be talkin' to their service folks about replacements, and what the voltage SHOULD be on those caps. It's also likely shown on the schematic for that model.

Here, again, replace both caps, not just the bad one.

Sprague and Mallory make 15K at 75V, CDE has a 14K at 75V listed, and United Chem-Con makes both 10K and 15K at 100V. Same screw-terminal "Computer Grade," yes?

I'm just looking at the Newark paper catalog here. See them online and Allied, Mouser, others....

Panasonic shows a 10K at 100V at Digikey...




Funny, the caps are made by the same company, ElCap.

The sid of the caps says;
El Cap
40312125
11000MFD 75VDC
85C USA 8419

I have done a search before trying to find a schematic for this amp. All I found was a few other guys looking for the same thing. I look some more.

Blessings, Terry

[Ski]

If you PM me your address and promise to throw a few bucks toward the site when you can, I'll send you a copy of the schematics. I'm running a bridged pair right now and hate to see somebody go without.

[Zilch]

Terry: 19th week of 1984. 20+ years.....

Could be the voltage is so high because there's no load on the transformer. If one side of supply is dead, perhaps the standby loading isn't there. I wouldn't expect that to be allowing so much rise in voltage as to push the filter caps that far out of operating range, but maybe....

Ski: What's it say the DC supply voltages are?

[Ski]

Just because I have one doesn't mean I can read it.

[Zilch]

??

[It's Funky.... :D ]

[still4given]

Originally posted by Ski
If you PM me your address and promise to throw a few bucks toward the site when you can, I'll send you a copy of the schematics. I'm running a bridged pair right now and hate to see somebody go without.

Hey Ski, That would be awsome!

You could fax it to me if you like.

Fax 310 865-9934

I'll PM my address too if that will make it easier. Your the best!:rockon2:


It will be my pleasure to contribute to this site. It has become my favorite hang-out.

Blessings, Terry

[Earl K]

Hi Terry

I'm really enjoying all this electronic "who dunnit" stuff .

Do a search for a Mallory/CDE 11000 mfd(uf) cap using this part number ; ( CG113U075X4C )

That is a current part number for a Mallory/CDE Computer Grade 75WVDC ( 100V Surge ) electrolytic. It's one of their "CG" models . It appears as a "special order" item here in Canada at ELECTROSONIC; Mallory/CDE 11000uf cap (http://www.e-sonic.com/acc/products.aspx?partID=CG113U075X4C&partIDExt=280&command=detail). You can see that it's @ 3"W x 4"H . Maybe you can hunt it down south of the border from a US based supplier.

Oh, here's another another 11000 mfd CDE (http://www.e-sonic.com/acc/products.aspx?partID=CGR113T075X3L&partIDExt=280&command=detail) from the CGR series.

Hope this helps <. EarlK

BTW - Electrosonics "Search Engine/Mainframe - Database" is woefully inadequate for the amount of traffic on it . ie - hard to get through at certain times of day .

[still4given]

Originally posted by Earl K
Hi Terry

I'm really enjoying all this electronic "who dunnit" stuff .

Do a search for a Mallory/CDE 11000 mfd(uf) cap using this part number ; ( CG113U075X4C )

That is a current part number for a Mallory/CDE Computer Grade 75WVDC ( 100V Surge ) electrolytic. It's one of their "CG" models . It appears as a "special order" item here in Canada at ELECTROSONIC; Mallory/CDE 11000uf cap (http://www.e-sonic.com/acc/products.aspx?partID=CG113U075X4C&partIDExt=280&command=detail). You can see that it's @ 3"W x 4"H . Maybe you can hunt it down south of the border from a US based supplier.

Oh, here's another another 11000 mfd CDE (http://www.e-sonic.com/acc/products.aspx?partID=CGR113T075X3L&partIDExt=280&command=detail) from the CGR series.

Hope this helps <. EarlK

Thanks Earl. Hey that's my Dad's name. :thmbsup:

I measured the caps this morning and they are 2" X 3 1/4". There is a printed circuit board that bolts to the screw terminals of both caps so I will have to find some that are the same dimensions or they won't work. Any taller and the cover won't fit. Any wider and the holes won't line up. This may turn out to be tougher than I had hoped. I never thought about the life expectancy of caps when acquiring older SS amps. Seems like that is a real factor. Obviously, physical size of these things is a pretty big factor too.

This cap (http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=displayproduct&lstdispproductid=442693&e_categoryid=387&e_pcodeid=75007) seems to be the only one I've found that will fit and is close to the proper values. I just don't know how much 10000uF vs. 11000uF will affect things.

Blessings, Terry

[Zilch]

I'd say the 10Kuf will work; in theory, you'll have a little less "headroom" at high volumes, is all. It won't collapse, rather, it'll just start souding nasty. We don't know how much margin is built into the design. It may be just fine.

Over time, aluminum electrolytics have gotten somewhat smaller. I don't understand how; it seems to defy the laws of nature. Perhaps newer materials and methodologies explains it. In this case, if a 15Kuf will fit, I'd be tempted to use it, but I'd also be trying to get the recommended part from the manufacturer (or their successor,) if available....

[still4given]

Yeah, if I could find a 15000uF 100VDC that is the right physical dimension that would be awesome! I'm going to keep searching. If anyone can find them I would be in you debt.

Blessings, Terry

EDIT:

I found these Panasonic caps (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/pic_g-ba_series_dne.pdf) .

It looks like there are a few choices there that will fit physically. Do any of you guys have experience with Panasonic caps? Are they good quality?

Thanks, Terry

[Zilch]

KMH series, 12K @ 80V (http://www.chemi-con.com/files/KMH_LGKMHLGH9.pdf) 105° C (expensive)

U32D Series, 12K @ 80V (http://www.chemi-con.com/files/U32DU32DH9.pdf) 105° C

U36D Series, 12K or 18K @ 80V, 10K @ 100V (http://www.chemi-con.com/files/U36DU36DH9.pdf) 85° C

Check stock from their Home Page (http://www.chemi-con.com/index.php)

Heh, heh. I was going to Panasonic next. Yeah, they're fine.... :p

There's your 12K @ 100V, Military temp 105° C. Not cheap, probably. See if they make the same in 85° C for better pricing.

Yup. Your 15K @100V is in the G-AA Series, 85° C (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/pic_g-aa_series_dne.pdf)

Remember, we don't KNOW that you need 100V yet; 80V may be fine, still higher than what was in it....

[still4given]

Thanks Zilch,

I've read that raising the MFD will give better bass response but that it will stress the bridge rectifier at start up due to the larger capacity. Any idea of what can be done to beef up the bridge if that is a problem?

Thanks, Terry

[Alex Lancaster]

Terry:

Looks like pretty soon You´ll be putting Nitrous Oxide and a turbo in them; Anyway put in a higher Amp rating bridge, don´t go too crazy, cause then You´ll be overdriving the transformers; Well You have extras, so You could parallel them, and then change the output section, etc., etc.

[Zilch]

Big bass transients draw lots of current; having larger storage capacity there doesn't give "better bass response," per se, rather, it merely provides more "headroom" for the amp to deal with them. Ultimately, it's the power transformer's ability to replenish the energy in time, and the amplifier's ability to deliver it to the speakers, that determines the performance. You can't make a bigger amp by merely upping the capacitance of the filters. The most you can hope for is that it will be a little ballsier, with less distortion, in the heaviest bass transients.

As you see, though, there's major $$$ in those capacitors, and it's one area where the designer (or the purchasing agent) may have resisted the temptation to overbuild the product. So, there's little risk in taking advantage of those advances in technology I alluded to above and raise the capacity if you have room to do so. Yuri might have some comments to add here, but he doesn't seem to be reading this thread, alas. I note that he recently mentioned increasing the supply filter capacitance on one of his amps.

Raising the storage capacity of the power supply filter capacitors will increase the duration of the inrush current through the bridge rectifier at turnon. The magnitude of the current itself is limited by the impedance of the power transformer, and the bridge is rated for overcurrent and duration. Again, it depends upon how much safety margin the designer built into the power supply components used.

I'd confidently guess that using 12K in lieu of 11K would be no problem, and 15K, a 36% increase, would probably be OK, as well. You've had experience with replacing bridge rectifiers already, if there's a problem. As Alex suggests, if it quits on you, you can move up to a beefier one. Check the rating on the one that's in there. Even the physical look of it can be telling: is it similar to the ones in the Haflers, or an apparent wimpy-weenie alternate?

Also, do we yet know from the schematic or elsewhere what the actual DC supply voltage is supposed to be on those capacitors or what value capacitance the designer originally specified? Which one you choose will depend upon whether or not you feel you need to move up to a higher rated working voltage. It may be part of the reason the present ones failed. Also, for all we know, some previous owner (or their hotshot tech) may have thought they were "hot rodding" the amp but did not pay attention to the WV spec there....

[still4given]

Thanks both of you.

He, he, I guess I am starting to sound like Tim Taylor. :D

The only reason I've been thinking about it is that, at least with the Panasonics, the cans that fit physically, are 15000uF and 100 VDC. I still haven't found a supplier for them but Panasonic still makes them so someone must sell them.

I haven't seen the schematic yet so I'm not sure what it is rated for and the bridge must be built into the PC board because I was looking for it today but couldn't find it. It isn't anything like the Hafler.

This amp has two PCB's. One that is bolted to the top of the power supply cans and another the lays under the MOSFET's and their heatsinks. They made pretty good use of space.

Thanks again, Terry

PS I'll try to take a couple of pictures so this will be easier for you guys.

Blessings

[Zilch]

Originally posted by still4given
I still haven't found a supplier for them but Panasonic still makes them so someone must sell them.They're not showing up in their inventory search there. You can try to order them through one of the distributors, but I'd call the rep first. They'll be able to find out if they ever made them (they're an OEM product,) and if so, where some are....

[still4given]

Originally posted by Zilch
They're not showing up in their inventory search there. You can try to order them through one of the distributors, but I'd call the rep first. They'll be able to find out if they ever made them (they're an OEM product,) and if so, where some are....

That sounds like a great idea. How do I get the phone number of the rep?:confused:

Oh yeah, here's some pics.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2903.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2904.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2906.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2905.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2915.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v357/still4given/soundcraftsman/129_2912.jpg

Blessings, Terry

[Zilch]

Originally posted by still4given
How do I get the phone number of the rep? There's a "Sales Reps/Distributors" link in the left column of the Panasonic page. (http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/)

Pick United States, then under "OEM Passive and Electomechanical," pick "Capacitors."

Put CA in there at the bottom and "Submit," and the list comes up. :)

Reps are after distributors there....

[Zilch]

The term "Phase Control Regulation" is a clue as to why the voltage is so high on the caps:

A predecessor of today's switching regulator power supplies, phase control was used to modulate the AC at the transformer to maintain a constant voltage at the power supply DC output. Since the filter capacitors are not working, it thinks the DC is too low, and turns full on in an attempt to bring it up to the regulation voltage.

Alternatively, the phase regulation circuitry is itself not working, and that overstressed the capacitors. We'll know more once you get the schematic and the capacitors. You should still be able to follow the transformer output leads to the bridge rectifier if the phase control is being done on the transformer primary.

The board on top of the capacitors looks to be the power supply phase regulation circuitry. I don't see anything smoked there. I'm surprised there is not some failsafe circuitry in there to shut it down in such a case as this unit is experiencing.

Don't be pokin' around with it plugged in, needless to say....

[andresohc]

Interesting site, Hafler "pull outs" with the values you are looking for. Dont know how much better someone elses used caps are but they are cheap enough. No affiliation

http://www.musicaldesign.com/moving_sale.htm

[email protected]

[PSS AUDIO]

I was asked to review this thread and I am honoured of such a request being considered, as a little guru witch is nothing compared being little Buddha!

From my experience power supply capacitors makes half the sound quality and depending of the schematic of the power amplifier you use the design and use of such or such brands will change and there is no brand leading in this area.

I used very well known brands and they sounded fine but never as I wished.

That is why I changed and modified a lot my amplifier schematic to improve the sound quality but never satisfied. And I kept working and working.

For no reason I changed those so-called excellent power supply capacitors for others I had in stock for months and I was surprised how nice the amplifier sounded.

I bought several caps from several brands and I finally, after choosing, heard what I was looking for.

I spent months and years on the power amp while in one-month time I solved what I was looking for by using the right power supply caps.

Brands and numbers have no meaning in the audio land, I now use Jamicon caps (who heard about them) and I can say that they sound great for me.

I even changed Nippon Chemicon caps for those Jamicon caps in my Teac CD player (P2/D2) and suddenly it sounded even better!

Value, ripple current, ESR and other number has NO meaning, listening is the only solution.

That is why changing an 11000MF cap for a 10000 or 15000MF one is not the matter.

It will of course work.

Will it sound good, this is an other story…

[still4given]

Originally posted by Zilch
The term "Phase Control Regulation" is a clue as to why the voltage is so high on the caps:

A predecessor of today's switching regulator power supplies, phase control was used to modulate the AC at the transformer to maintain a constant voltage at the power supply DC output. Since the filter capacitors are not working, it thinks the DC is too low, and turns full on in an attempt to bring it up to the regulation voltage.

Alternatively, the phase regulation circuitry is itself not working, and that overstressed the capacitors. We'll know more once you get the schematic and the capacitors. You should still be able to follow the transformer output leads to the bridge rectifier if the phase control is being done on the transformer primary.

The board on top of the capacitors looks to be the power supply phase regulation circuitry. I don't see anything smoked there. I'm surprised there is not some failsafe circuitry in there to shut it down in such a case as this unit is experiencing.

Don't be pokin' around with it plugged in, needless to say....

Thanks Zilch

That makes a lot of sense. I am looking forward to receiving the schematic. Hopefully that will shed some light on things before I go spending a lot of money on things I may not need. I know I will need new caps but I would prefer to buy the best values rather than guessing.

As to the "pull outs" while the price is tempting, I'm a little wary of buying used caps since that is what failed in my Haflers and the amps he pulled them from haven't been manufactured in a long time, meaning those caps are fairly old, at best.


PSS Audio,

Thanks for reading this thread and giving you time to help. What you say makes a lot of sense, but I am having a lot of trouble finding a cap with 11000MDF value. I'm very new to this whole thing and so my knowledge of where to source parts is very small. I am very thankful to all those who have taken the time to help me in this endeavor. I will check out the Jamicon caps. Who knows, maybe they carry what I need.

Thanks again, Terry

[PSS AUDIO]

Originally posted by still4given
... PSS Audio,... but I am having a lot of trouble finding a cap with 11000MDF value...

Thanks again, Terry

In a while I must send an amplifier to Scott. I can add 2 Jamicon 10000MF100V thus he can send them for your personal attention. Those caps are PCB caps; it means that you will have to solder them with wires to the PCB.

As I had excellent feedback with those power supply capacitors you can even try them with your Haffler amplifier and compare them to the caps you have, I think you will enjoy them!

[still4given]

Originally posted by PSS AUDIO
In a while I must send an amplifier to Scott. I can add 2 Jamicon 10000MF100V thus he can send them for your personal attention. Those caps are PCB caps; it means that you will have to solder them with wires to the PCB.

As I had excellent feedback with those power supply capacitors you can even try them with your Haffler amplifier and compare them to the caps you have, I think you will enjoy them!

AWESOME!

I am waiting with baited breath! :D

Blessings, Terry

[still4given]

The new caps came today for my Haflers. They fixed them by the way. Be fore I put the set in the second hafler I tried them in the Soundcraftsmen. WOW! I was pleasantly surprized. This Soundcraftsmen sounds really really good. Put my Haflers to shame IMO. I still need to get some new caps. The ones in the Hafler are too tall.

I'm going to keep my eyes open for these Soundcraftsmen amps. I see them for pretty good prices on ebay sometimes. I'm a happy camper right now.

Thanks for all the help.

Blessings, Terry

[Ski]

I haven't sent the schematics yet. Do you still need them? I also just snagged a copy of the owner's manual off of ebay. It wasn't very impressive but it's nice to have.

[Zilch]

Originally posted by still4given
The new caps came today for my Haflers. They fixed them by the way.Of course, I am very pleased they solved the problem(s)!

:rockon1: :bouncy:

It'd be good if you posted here what value capacitors you finally obtained for the Haflers, where you got them, and how much they cost.

Others with the same or similar problems may stumble on this thread,

OR be wantin' to send their amps to you for repair! :D

[Zilch]

Originally posted by Ski
I haven't sent the schematics yet. Do you still need them?

I'm interested in seeing the voltage regulation circuitry. I'll PM you my address for the schematics.

Google shows some threads with folks wanting the owner's manual. You may be able to make some deals there. Just put in the make and model.

Much appreciated.

[still4given]

Originally posted by Ski
I haven't sent the schematics yet. Do you still need them? I also just snagged a copy of the owner's manual off of ebay. It wasn't very impressive but it's nice to have.

Absolutely, if your are still willing to send them. No telling what else may crop up. Besides I really, really want to learn how to fix these things. This would be as good a place to start as any.

Thanks again.


It'd be good if you posted here what value capacitors you finally obtained for the Haflers, where you got them, and how much they cost.


Here (http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?&handler=data.listcategory&D=*7536DX103G075BC2A*&terms=75-36DX103G075BC2A&Ntt=*7536DX103G075BC2A*&Dk=1&Ns=MfgrPartNumber%7c%7cSField&N=0&crc=true) is a link to the part. They seem to be of good quality and they were exactly the same value and size as the Hafler caps. So far, so good.

I'm still looking for the right caps for the Soundcraftsman. These made it work but they are too tall to fit in the case.

Blessings, Terry