JBL Master Reference Monitor

[Titanium Dome]

May we talk about it now?

http://harmanprogroup.blogspot.com/2013/01/harmans-jbl-professional-introduces-m2.html

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/Tech.html#Spatial

It's been introduced officially at NAMM 2013 in Anaheim.

[1audiohack]

May we talk about it now?

It's been introduced officially at NAMM 2013 in Anaheim.

Thats what they were waiting for.

[mech986]

That D2 isn't a compression driver, its a freakin Piston!

58061

[4313B]

.


May we talk about it now?They're expensive.


That D2 isn't a compression driver, its a freakin Piston!A dual ring radiator.

I am kind of surprised more people didn't jump on the offer to get a pair of the D2's. I guess they are waiting for the factory seconds to start showing up on eBay. ;)

Faston connectors... definitely something I don't associate with a two thousand dollar transducer.


Image Control WaveguideI'd like to bolt a 476Mg or 476Be to this and see how good it would sound, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if this thing ended up being just as unobtainable as the compression drivers.


2216Nd Differential Drive® WooferIt could be interesting to see how this driver sounds in the M2 with the Crown DSP versus the S4700.

[pos]

The only technical measurement we have for now are the multi-axis/power curves (Toole style 58062).
This this interesting already: the directivity behavior is similar to a S9800, with a large directivity for the compression (the H9800 has a much wider dispersion than its nominal 90°x60° on most of its band), and a rapid gain in directivity at the crossover point (much more pronounced than the 4338 or S9900 for example).
The directivity collapses a bit in the UHF compared to the tweeter-assisted S9800, but the curves are smoother there of course, with no phase issue. All in all the directivity is kept wide higher than the LSR6332.

Too bad the 30°/15° listening window averaged curve is missing for the M2, as I feel it shows some of the directivity issues of the H9800 (*very* wide horizontal directivity in the 3khz-8khz range), and that would have been interesting to see how the M2 waveguide behaves in this regard...

Of course the response is smoother than the S9800 and LSR6332 because it is actively driven by a FIR crossover, so we can imagine the EQ was very precisely done with inverse corrections. But even with a perfectly EQed on-axis response the S9800 would probably not give off-axis/power curves that smooth: the M2 waveguide definitely has something to it in this regard (as do PT waveguides I think).
The M2 extends also lower in frequency than the S9800 (flat down to 40Hz and only -3dB at 30Hz in anechoic conditions?!), also probably thanks to some EQ (mandatory to adapt the loudspeaker to the position and room anyway...)

Waiting for the EDS now :bouncy:

[4313B]

It could be interesting to see the default DSP curve.

[Bobecca]

It could be interesting to see the default DSP curve.

One could also say that it would be interesting to see S9800 without the passive x-overs(default):D.
X-overs is needed for fullrange speakers, passive or active.


BTW, a very good looking monitors and probably nice sounding as well. I want a pair of this :)

[4313B]

One could also say that it would be interesting to see S9800 without the passive x-overs(default):D.I thought I had posted that already. I'm sure I did because we went over it in depth for Project May.

It could also be interesting to see what G.T. might do with the S9800 system now that he uses LEAP. The components are, of course, quite good.

[macaroonie]

That D2 isn't a compression driver, its a freakin Piston!

58061

Once again for those interested here is the cross section

58064

[Bobecca]

I thought I had posted that already. I'm sure I did because we went over it in depth for Project May.

It could also be interesting to see what G.T. might do with the S9800 system now that he uses LEAP. The components are, of course, quite good.

I thought you meant with no setting at all in DSP.

To see the settings of DSP would be nice. I hope they will have one setting for dbx260. All that
is needed is to have a pair of the M2. I allready have the Crowns MAi:applaud: :bouncy:

Does anyone know where the retail price gonna be??

[pos]

I think FIR filtering and EQ is key in this design, so even if a dbx260 preset is published it will probably not give the same result.

[Robh3606]

The Green Curve is the Listening Window according to the graph legend on the bottom. Would be nice to try out one of the waveguides.

Rob:)

[ivica]

The only technical measurement we have for now are the multi-axis/power curves (Toole style 58062).
This this interesting already: the directivity behavior is similar to a S9800, with a large directivity for the compression (the H9800 has a much wider dispersion than its nominal 90°x60° on most of its band), and a rapid gain in directivity at the crossover point (much more pronounced than the 4338 or S9900 for example).
The directivity collapses a bit in the UHF compared to the tweeter-assisted S9800, but the curves are smoother there of course, with no phase issue. All in all the directivity is kept wide higher than the LSR6332.

Too bad the 30°/15° listening window averaged curve is missing for the M2, as I feel it shows some of the directivity issues of the H9800 (*very* wide horizontal directivity in the 3khz-8khz range), and that would have been interesting to see how the M2 waveguide behaves in this regard...

Of course the response is smoother than the S9800 and LSR6332 because it is actively driven by a FIR crossover, so we can imagine the EQ was very precisely done with inverse corrections. But even with a perfectly EQed on-axis response the S9800 would probably not give off-axis/power curves that smooth: the M2 waveguide definitely has something to it in this regard (as do PT waveguides I think).
The M2 extends also lower in frequency than the S9800 (flat down to 40Hz and only -3dB at 30Hz in anechoic conditions?!), also probably thanks to some EQ (mandatory to adapt the loudspeaker to the position and room anyway...)

Waiting for the EDS now :bouncy:

It would be interesting if any have the same info about "old" M9500, just as a comparison in the horizontal dispersion.
For M2 it see,s to me that in its horn a kind of 'detraction teeth" are implemented in order to widen horizontal dispersion, over 12kHz +/- 15 deg can be expected (-6dB), almost the same 'problems' as BMS4590/92P in UHF region.

Seems to me that the driver itself is more 'potent' then today horns applied.
Regards
Ivica

[pos]

The Green Curve is the Listening Window according to the graph legend on the bottom. Would be nice to try out one of the waveguides.
You are absolutely right.
I would love to see the on axis curve then :D

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/images/Tech_R5.jpg

[ivica]

You are absolutely right.
I would love to see the on axis curve then :D

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/images/Tech_R5.jpg

with some es mentioned horn

[JuniorJBL]

I sure would like to hear them. I bet they sound nice.

Nice to see a really nice monitor come from Pro again! :applaud:

Not that LSR's are bad, they just seem to be the same thing everyone elses stuff is.

These are 4430 cool!:D

[martin_wu99]

So nice that M2 post reopened,i'm waiting for it:bouncy:
How will it be comparing with 9900?:D
Frequency Range:20 Hz - 40 kHz ??? +-3db or +-6db???
Without utra-high,can it work well?

[4313B]

How will it be comparing with 9900?:DWell, it's pretty obvious that the M2 has the nicer looking graph. That has to count for something. :rotfl:

Without utra-high,can it work well?I sincerely hope you are trying to be funny...


As far as the S9900 and its "lean" low frequency response... it is real easy to apply a bit of EQ at the tuning frequency of the enclosure and fill it in a bit.


I sure would like to hear them. I bet they sound nice.

Nice to see a really nice monitor come from Pro again! :applaud:

These are 4430 cool! :DAgreed! :yes:

[martin_wu99]

Well, it's pretty obvious that the M2 has the nicer looking graph. That has to count for something. :DI sincerely hope you are trying to be funny...
Oh,funny or not is not so important here,i just notice that D2 is very similar to BMS,but BMS can not reach 40K,so i have this doubt.:blink:

[Dave_72]

Very nice system! I should have waited, lol! But, I'm guessing I probably couldn't afford these...:D

[Valentin]

any price estimate

:blink:

[Titanium Dome]

I'm often interested in the stuff no one is talking about, so here's a quick look at some keen aspects of this Master Reference Monitor System.

Cabinet Design

From the front, the nearly 20"Wx50"H cabinet seems big. That's over 4' tall, while a K2 S9900 comes in at 22'Wx48"H. The M2 weighs 129 lb. while the K2 is 182 lb. A partial explanation for the K2 being so much heavier is that looked at from the side, it's deeper than the M2. The M2 is less than 10" deep, while the K2 and its rounded enclosure go back nearly 14".

Of course the M2 is a very plain looking black cabinet without the added weight of veneer, and unlike the K2, it is not simply a floor stander, but it's built for wall mounting, behind screen mounting, and soffit mounting, too, so every pound counts. That's also why the ports are in front. In addition, all the electronics are outside the enclosure, so the weight of crossovers is removed as well.


A Little Synthesis® in its DNA?

You can buy a K2, Everest II, S4700, etc. and mate it to any amp, preamp, or receiver you want. With a little trial and error, you can probably find a combo that pleases you quite a bit after you've discarded some equipment that just didn't gel together into harmonious bliss.

When you get a true system, like JBL Synthesis®, the amps, I/O units, and processor are predetermined to a large degree, and the system is brought into a harmonious whole through the DACS or ARCOS calibration that knows every component and has the data and crunching power necessary to integrate everything. This is in contrast to systems that use Audyssey, etc. where a unit that is essentially blind to the other components in the system uses--depending on the level of processing power--its number crunching to make guesses about how to "fix" the room-related problems it discovers.

So it would appear JBL Pro is taking some of the Synthesis® systems thinking into the professional project studio, music recording control room, and post production control room.

An Integrated, Tunable System with Room Optimization

Hardware: Amplification
The pair of Crown I-Tech 500HD amplifiers provide both optimal power and built-in floating point DSP. This allows easy integration with the BSS units (below) to set crossovers that can even be room-specific, as well as optimizing room integration and power.

Hardware: Processing
The BSS BLU-160 unit (or other BSS Soundweb London processor) has all the horses needed to do the computational math even for a very difficult room. Since it already knows the M2 and the I-Tech 5000HD, it's primed and ready to apply maximum effort to system integration and optimization with the room.

Software: Harman System Architect
Harman System Architect is a computer software program in which device-specific plug-ins can be planted. Thus, JBL Pro can load in speaker and amplifier plug-ins specific to this system. HSA was written from the ground up, Harman claims, though I suspect London Architect had a lot to do with it. The objective is to accommodate all the requirements for every link in the signal chain. Harman's tweaks add M2/I-Tech specificity, and as it's said, "Knowledge is power" even if you're a floating point DSP.

Conclusion

The transducers, power handling, and frequency range of the M2 are fascinating points of discussion, but for me, the flexibility of installation and the systems thinking that went into the design are far more intriguing. This is not just a new, great studio monitor, it's a whole systems approach that elevates the entire chain.

Sure some will balk at the cost involved in getting the whole system. Many will believe that they can take the raw loudspeaker and use other components of their choosing to do just as well or better than JBL Pro, and do it for less. There are in fact a very few who can, but there are many, many more who cannot.

My Synthesis® experience has been instructive in this regard. I've been in a lot of home theaters with more expensive equipment: the greatest amps with the most fantastic speakers controlled by $20,000 processors placed in $100,000 rooms that were given $2,500 calibrations. Yet I've never heard a single one that could match the system integration and room optimization of a well done Synthesis® system, even a midrange set up like mine.

So, were I ever to go the M2 route, the preferred path for me would be the whole system or nothing. I'll bet it would be spectacular!! :yes:

[grumpy]

Already posted?

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/index.html

(duh, yes... post #1. Either I missed some of the detail sub-pages or they were added recently.)

Guessing a lot of the K2/M2 weight difference is woofer magnet/frame.

Regarding the BLU160 processor shown in the product system info, I'd
also guess that the processing for a "basic" M2 pair would not require a separate
BLU unit ($$$ just by themselves), what with the Crown amps having BLU processor
capability built in.

It will be interesting to see when the product pages are filled in, package/prices announced,
and less speculation is "necessary" :)

[JuniorJBL]

So, were I ever to go the M2 route, the preferred path for me would be the whole system or nothing. I'll bet it would be spectacular!! :yes:

I have already been thinkin about what I need to sell to get the whole system.:p


They sure are cool. I also do not think (for me anyway) that this news would not be quite as exciting had this come from Harman luxury audio group, I kind of expect it.

Also looks like retail is about $24-25,000 or so there abouts with the amps and processor. Not all that bad really. I would think this would be the way to go if you really want to overcome a room and it's problems.

Hummmm what to sell!!:deal:

[ngccglp]

I always prefer system solutions i.e. system already optimised so that when results are more predictable and consistent. I also am thinking what i need to sell :D to get the full system M2 with Crown i-Tech.

[ngccglp]

.

I am kind of surprised more people didn't jump on the offer to get a pair of the D2's. I guess they are waiting for the factory seconds to start showing up on eBay. ;)

Faston connectors... definitely something I don't associate with a two thousand dollar transducer.



What I would also like to try is to get the D2 and integrate it into my 4345s... are they 2 inch drivers? Would they fit the 2311 horn?

[macaroonie]

Oh,funny or not is not so important here,i just notice that D2 is very similar to BMS,but BMS can not reach 40K,so i have this doubt.:blink:

Martin , please , the JBL has no similarity to the BMS in its method of operation. Yes they both have annular diaphragms but thats where the similarity ends.

Once again , the BMS has an annular mid dia that feeds backwards and integrates with the output from a coventional forward firing HF dia . These two dias are fed via a coventional crossover network to make it all happen.

The JBL does not work this way at all. It has two dias that play equal and opposite to each other. They push towards each other and then pull apart. Look at this cross section..

58073

I suppose that this method alone gives rise to very efficient compression ratios meaning that in use the dias are less stressed mechanically and therefore the response can be tailored as required.
It seems to me that this is similar in a way to the Heil AMT in that there is a multiplication factor of the motion of the dia , in this case times 2.

Of course that is not the whole story but it is clear that the JBL development team involved with this have raised the bar significantly. It is not often that you will see a frequency response as ruler flat as they are publishing , regardless of how it is achieved.

800Hz crossover FYI

[Valentin]

Guessing a lot of the K2/M2 weight difference is woofer magnet/frame.


INDEED de 1500al magnet stucture is at least 35 pound while the neo magnet are very lite


bss blu-16 is needed if you go with crown none procesor amps like the MA5000i

if you buy the it 5000hd you get a bss unit integreted in the amp




Also looks like retail is about $24-25,000 or so there abouts with the amps and processor. Not all that bad really

:bouncy:

[Robh3606]

Guessing a lot of the K2/M2 weight difference is woofer magnet/frame.

Yes between the woofer and the compression driver. I have 2266's and they are as light as a feather compared to a 2235. The DD Neo make a huge difference in weight.

Rob:)

[martin_wu99]

Martin , please , the JBL has no similarity to the BMS in its method of operation. Yes they both have annular diaphragms but thats where the similarity ends.

Once again , the BMS has an annular mid dia that feeds backwards and integrates with the output from a coventional forward firing HF dia . These two dias are fed via a coventional crossover network to make it all happen.

The JBL does not work this way at all. It has two dias that play equal and opposite to each other. They push towards each other and then pull apart. Look at this cross section..

58073

I suppose that this method alone gives rise to very efficient compression ratios meaning that in use the dias are less stressed mechanically and therefore the response can be tailored as required.
It seems to me that this is similar in a way to the Heil AMT in that there is a multiplication factor of the motion of the dia , in this case times 2.

Of course that is not the whole story but it is clear that the JBL development team involved with this have raised the bar significantly. It is not often that you will see a frequency response as ruler flat as they are publishing , regardless of how it is achieved.

800Hz crossover FYI
Thanks for your detail explaination:D

[Dave_72]

I have already been thinkin about what I need to sell to get the whole system.:p


They sure are cool. I also do not think (for me anyway) that this news would not be quite as exciting had this come from Harman luxury audio group, I kind of expect it.

Also looks like retail is about $24-25,000 or so there abouts with the amps and processor. Not all that bad really. I would think this would be the way to go if you really want to overcome a room and it's problems.

Hummmm what to sell!!:deal:

That much? Not bad, not bad at all. I currently have about $19k in my current system, including the S4700s. So all you need is a dac and lossless files (and a cd player if you're gonna play cds,) and you're all set, true?

[Mr. Widget]

I have already been thinkin about what I need to sell to get the whole system.:p


They sure are cool. I also do not think (for me anyway) that this news would not be quite as exciting had this come from Harman luxury audio group, I kind of expect it.

Also looks like retail is about $24-25,000 or so there abouts with the amps and processor. Not all that bad really. I would think this would be the way to go if you really want to overcome a room and it's problems.

Hummmm what to sell!!:deal:It wouldn't surprise me if the 1400 Array was a superior solution for home use. I certainly doubt the M2 has the level of detail resolution of the 476Be and 476Mg based home speakers... those DSP based Crown amps are impressive, but just how good do they really sound?

I don't mean to rain on this parade... I am quite excited that JBL has decided to reenter this market, but I wouldn't drop coin on these without some serious audition time.


Widget

[Bobecca]

Hi

If I didn't have my current system I would go for M2 in an instant and I don't have to have a listening session.
When I bought my Cinema Screen Arrays I bought them without listening to them first. I even bough the 4312E without listening as well.

If I keep my Crowns MAi and swap my processor to BSS and all that is left is a pair of M2 and I'm ready to rock'n roll:D:applaud:

I have to think about this
:hmm:

[macaroonie]

Bet you there is a waiting list already.

[Valentin]

Like TiDome says this is an integrated systems and pro market is allot more open to use DSP in their loudspeaker monitors

i remember that K2 9800 had very nice mark levinson active crossovers and amps and it did not sell well

by quots. Here in this forum Mr GT favors active crossovers to get the best of his systems but the hi end is full of ghosts and too many Dsp and digital with hi end dont mix

The Everests and the K2 are not active becuse the marketing ruled i bet Greg T , Mark G and others top disinger would be very hapy to use dsp active crossovers and eq on top systems

My 2hz

[4313B]

What I would also like to try is to get the D2 and integrate it into my 4345s... are they 2 inch drivers? Would they fit the 2311 horn?No, they will not fit a 2311 without modification.

They completely supplant the LE175/LE85/2410/2420/2421/2425/2426 and 2405/077 combination.
It wouldn't surprise me if the 1400 Array was a superior solution for home use. I certainly doubt the M2 has the level of detail resolution of the 476Be and 476Mg based home speakers... those DSP based Crown amps are impressive, but just how good do they really sound?

I don't mean to rain on this parade... I am quite excited that JBL has decided to reenter this market, but I wouldn't drop coin on these without some serious audition time.It will be interesting to see how much of this technology spreads to the Consumer side. Are we going to see a 1-inch exit version? A 2-inch exit version? Less expensive versions? This new compression driver currently holds the number two spot in cost.

Those who know say that it is "better" than the 2431/435AL but not quite as good as the 2435/435Be, nevermind a 476Mg or 476Be. One thing is certain though, it has no rival in pure output over an impressively wide bandwidth. It makes a wide-band two-way system a complete reality.

[JuniorJBL]

It wouldn't surprise me if the 1400 Array was a superior solution for home use. I certainly doubt the M2 has the level of detail resolution of the 476Be and 476Mg based home speakers... those DSP based Crown amps are impressive, but just how good do they really sound?

I don't mean to rain on this parade... I am quite excited that JBL has decided to reenter this market, but I wouldn't drop coin on these without some serious audition time.


Widget


Not sure I would get rid of the 1400's:no:

I also had the same thought about the Crown being as nice sounding as my MC602. Dont think it is possible, but the BSS unit with my Macs might be a different story. Full retail on the speakers alone looks to be 12K another $2500 and you have a BSS 160 or the crown's at a retail of 12K alone.

My thought is, I really like that it is a 2way with extension to 40k and a really good processor like the BSS should provide a nice way to integrate them into almost any room.

The waveguide sure looks to be the next 4430 on steroids.:)

[4313B]

Full retail on the speakers alone looks to be 12KWell that's nuts...
My thought is, I really like that it is a 2way with extension to 40k and a really good processor like the BSS should provide a nice way to integrate them into almost any room.So the question is how does the M2 sound against the 1200 Array and S3900/S4700 without all the back end required (?) to make it sound reasonable.
The waveguide sure looks to be the next 4430 on steroids.:)I view the waveguide as the best part of the technology (Great sounding DSP would be a real close second).

It is two piece, the back piece being a mounting plate, evidently so various bolt patterns with 1.5" exit compression drivers can be used.



As for the D2 compression driver, a 1-inch exit version could be very interesting...
i remember that K2 9800 had very nice mark levinson active crossovers and amps and it did not sell well
It was alot of money and second mortgages weren't readily available.

You know we buy everything on credit. No credit, No K2's.

[macaroonie]

I think this technology will be very prominent in the coming years.

[4313B]

I think this technology will be very prominent in the coming years.Well, we've heard that it's scalable so possibly so. I think Harman Pro does believe that it is a genuine game changer.

[JuniorJBL]

Well that's nuts....
That's what I said.;)




So the question is how does the M2 sound against the 1200 Array and S3900/S4700 without all the back end required (?) to make it sound reasonable.I view the waveguide as the best part of the technology (Great sounding DSP would be a real close second).
This is definitely the question and I know you will get to the bottom of it...... So to speak!!

(or maybe it is the top of it):p




It is two piece, the back piece being a mounting plate, evidently so various bolt patterns with 1.5" exit compression drivers can be used.

Folks at JBL are aware that I want to bolt a 476Be to it asap. I suppose it is possible that they will try it first. ;)

As for the D2 compression driver, a 1-inch exit version could be very interesting.... Yes that would be fun to have access to a 1" like that. Affordable 2ways would never be the same!:D


It was alot of money and second mortgages weren't readily available.

You know we buy everything on credit. No credit, No K2's.
But I don't live in my speakers!! :rotfl:

[4313B]

That's what I said.;)That it will only be available through select Pro Dealers might "fix" that problem.

The impact on Consumer might be minimal.

[macaroonie]

I would hazard a guess that the next iteration will be a smaller VTX array module and then a smaller still to replace the existing Vertec line.
Probably be something to chew on in amongst that lot.

[Valentin]

That it will only be available through select Pro Dealers might "fix" that problem.

The impact on Consumer might be minimal.

i agree with this very few hi enders will want a crown digital amp with a digital BSS dsp unit

[JuniorJBL]

That it will only be available through select Pro Dealers might "fix" that problem.

The impact on Consumer might be minimal.


I got my price from a friend who IS a select dealer. Not shipping yet but I might really need a pair of those WG's!!;)
and buying a pair of M2's may be the only way to get some.

Ever since the Array/SAM1HF's I have been a horn Junkie!!

Now the whole theater has to have horns!!:rotfl:

[Dave_72]

i agree with this very few hi enders will want a crown digital amp with a digital BSS dsp unit

True, but this high-ender is interested in results, not to necessarily have the most esoteric and exotic equipment around:D.

[Mr. Widget]

True, but this high-ender is interested in results, not to necessarily have the most esoteric and exotic equipment around:D.I agree completely!

That said, while I may make measurements in my system set up, I measure results with my ears and not graphs or theoretical ideals.



Widget

[Valentin]

its nice to start with a theorical ideal

it makes things easyer to dail in, Harmans team has done a great job in geting the ball very close in many difrent models


you can not say that of many loudspeaker companys

[Titanium Dome]

True, but this high-ender is interested in results, not to necessarily have the most esoteric and exotic equipment around:D.


I agree completely!

That said, while I may make measurements in my system set up, I measure results with my ears and not graphs or theoretical ideals.



Widget


its nice to start with a theorical ideal

it makes things easyer to dail in, Harmans team has done a great job in geting the ball very close in many difrent models


you can not say that of many loudspeaker companys


Yes, Harman has been working very hard at this. I also agree that more and more of Harman's JBL-specific products are closer to the mark right out of the box, and the proliferation of products aimed at getting even closer shows an intent to keep improving. Things don't always work perfectly (witness Bass-Q), but Harman/JBL is putting the $$$ and effort into innovative efforts that improve the listening experience.

These tools are far better for users like me who aren't going to bother with a soldering gun, a bag of caps, resistors, inductors, etc., modeling software, etc. because it's just a huge frickin' waste of our time and money for the inferior outcome we'd produce. I'll gladly pay for the tools as they get better and better. Especially as JBL moves towards Harman's goal of pervasive horns for the consumer side of the brand, these tools become more sophisticated and useful.

Widget and I agree--:eek::eek::eek:--that while measurements are important in helping us set things up, I actually want to like the way it sounds more than like the way it graphs (or looks). In this case, the ears always have it.

[Mr. Widget]

its nice to start with a theorical ideal

it makes things easyer to dail in, Harmans team has done a great job in geting the ball very close in many difrent models


you can not say that of many loudspeaker companysAgreed...

My point was, I've heard simple two-way time aligned minimum diffraction speakers that image far worse than say the 1400 Arrays which are not time aligned, have a 14" driver running far too high in frequency, certainly are far from minimum diffraction, blah, blah, blah...


Widget

[Valentin]

Agreed...

My point was, I've heard simple two-way time aligned minimum diffraction speakers that image far worse than say the 1400 Arrays which are not time aligned, have a 14" driver running far too high in frequency, certainly are far from minimum diffraction, blah, blah, blah...


Widget
:applaud: Yes yes yes

[ivica]

, ......., but Harman/JBL is putting the $$$ and effort into innovative efforts that improve the listening experience.

These tools are far better for users like me who aren't going to bother with a soldering gun, a bag of caps, resistors, inductors, etc., modeling software, etc. because it's just a huge frickin' waste of our time and money for the inferior outcome we'd produce. I'll gladly pay for the tools as they get better and better. Especially as JBL moves towards Harman's goal of pervasive horns for the consumer side of the brand, these tools become more sophisticated and useful.

Widget and I agree--:eek::eek::eek:--that while measurements are important in helping us set things up, I actually want to like the way it sounds more than like the way it graphs (or looks). In this case, the ears always have it.

Hi Titanium Dome,

I can agree with you that with D2430K driver JBL has made, may be the greatest innovation in last over fifty years i the compression driver technology, introducing 'two working-in-parallel annular diaphragms' with appropriated phase plug in order to improve harmonic distortions while not scarifying driver efficiency (look at the attached figures).

But I can not agree with You that some kind of objective measure of quality is of less importance, and I believe that in next months more available details about that would become available, so staying in belief that such data would confirm high level of quality of the driver (do not forget that, now, D2430K driver is almost (TWO) THREE TIMES more expensive then BMS 4590P driver.

If talking 'about our-self relish', for me it is quite 'understandable' that a person can enjoy in buying or possessing something, but from my point of view, much more pleasure is , first to understand (technical and scientific point of something) the way it operates, and after trying to reproduce (applying mentioned knowledge),here, ourself system (or part of the system) that would satisfy out expectation, sometime comparable to the system produced by such huge brand as JBL. As I have remembered, some of the greatest JBL designers, were "coming from" the hobbyist-field.

It would make me sad, if Harman-JBL would decide to "close their doors" of selling drivers alone (not as built in the system only).

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

Widget and I agree--:eek::eek::eek:--that while measurements are important in helping us set things up, I actually want to like the way it sounds more than like the way it graphs (or looks). In this case, the ears always have it.There are alot of people out there that hear their music via plots. We've been over this dozens of times. I would not be the least bit surprised if someone hasn't already posterized the M2 plot and hung it on their wall.

Us asking "Yes, but how does it sound?" is meaningless to them. If it doesn't plot good, then it can't be good. ;)

[Valentin]

There are alot of people out there that hear their music via plots. We've been over this dozens of times. I would not be the least bit surprised if someone hasn't already posterized the M2 plot and hung it on their wall.

Us asking "Yes, but how does it sound?" is meaningless to them. If it doesn't plot good, then it can't be good. ;)

All extreems are Bad

But as i se it there is alot more buying being done by reading tecnical or the other extrem of super exotic components cables xo parts etc etc oganic sound etc etc

Than the pure sound

we all have bias in some way or other

Raining on this M2 monitor just because it measures theoricaly excelent is just as speculative :banghead:

[4313B]

Raining on this M2 monitor just because it measures theoricaly excelent is just as speculative :banghead:I think JBL Pro covered all the bases this time around. There isn't a whole lot to whine about here. ;)



Well ok, someone is bound to bitch and moan that it's only flat on the bottom end to forty instead of twenty. :rotfl:


Word is that the 2216Nd, first used in the S4700, was used in the M2 as well because everyone loved the way it sounded. :)

[JuniorJBL]

The chart only goes to 20k. Dammit JBL!!!!!!:rotfl:

Thankfully as I get older I start to look for the good instead of always pointing out the bad.

Let the masses say what they will, but I want a pair in my listening room!!;)

The config for the room has got to be just about the best way I can think of to use a great DSP unit. People are getting better with this technology and it does have a positive impact on todays systems.

I can think of no one better to bring it to us than JBL!:D

[Valentin]

58080

Charles Sprinkle and Allan Devantier at Sony's number one scoring stage

congrats :applaud:


Use Case
Performance Requirements
New Technologies to Meet Design Challenges
Low Frequency Transducer
Low TCR Wire
Dual Gap, Dual Nd Magnet Motor
Cone Geometry Optimization
High Frequency Compression Transducer
Dual Diaphragm Compression Driver
Extended Frequency Range
Higher Output
Lower Distortion
High Frequency Waveguide / Horn

Pattern Control in Orthogonal and Oblique Planes
New Design Methodology
Extended Upper pattern Control Frequency Smooth Frequency Response
Optimized Directivity Transition to Woofer
System Integration
DSP / Active Crossover and EQ
Directivity Index Optimization
Frequency response optimization
Results / Discussion
Frequency Response / Directivity SPL / Dynamic Range

[macaroonie]

Interesting pic there Valentin , its not as big as I had imagined.


Regarding DSP control of such a system , surely this is just a more powerful way of achieving what a passive network sets out to do.
There is of course the discussion as to whether it is desireable to have such digital processing in your signal path at all. I expect that all things taken into account this system will sound darn good by any standards. They are selling to a tough crowd , folks that have to use these all day long for the work that they do. I doubt if JBL would get much mileage with this system if it was below par.
Having worked in manufacturing I would also suggest that the JBL team will have some tame 'Golden Ears ' that they can go to to double check that all is well in a real world situation. Its not all done on computer sims and anechoic tests. A product like this has to stand up and be counted.

As you will have gathered I am super enthusiastic about the D2 , and in time once there are some of these out in the field and the reports start appearing on the net I will eat my hat if there is not a global thumbs up on the system in general.

Again , do some deep digging re the VTX system , you will read and hear comments about how clear / undistorted / articulate / powerful blah blah. Remember these VTX modules are about $15 k per so an array is not chump change. The tour hire guys are buying these by the boat load and they dont do that for no reason.

Exciting times guys , it may be a while but I'm keen to get an earful of these. M

[spkrman57]

It's the modern day version of the older 15" 2-way cabaret systems of years ago.

Well, at least to me.....

Regards, Ron

[Dave_72]

I agree completely!

That said, while I may make measurements in my system set up, I measure results with my ears and not graphs or theoretical ideals.



Widget

Cool, and same here. Ears are important. :cool:

[ngccglp]

Hope someone can post a video at YouTube... Can wait to hear the sound...

[grumpy]

Hope someone can post a video at YouTube... Can wait to hear the sound...

Sarcasm? ;)

[4313B]

Sarcasm? ;)A step up from graph comparisons? ;)

[JuniorJBL]

Sarcasm? ;)No really!!Lets all get together at my house and audition some speakers on youtube!!:blink:



A step up from graph comparisons? ;)


Well duh!!:rotfl:

[audiomagnate]

They remind me of my SVA2100s.

[1audiohack]

They do? You have worn your Optigrab glasses too long.

[wsilva]

They do? You have worn your Optigrab glasses too long.

Awesome :thmbsup:

[gferrell]

I just listened to them on youtube also, and they just sound awesome!

[macaroonie]

I just listened to them on youtube also, and they just sound awesome!

No See No Linky ?

[JuniorJBL]

I just listened to them on youtube also, and they just sound awesome!

Bet they sounded alot like your computer speakers!!:p

[Dave_72]

No See No Linky ?

Yeah, what's the link, bub? :D

[grumpy]

New pdf brochure on JBL M2 page...

[macaroonie]

Well spotted Grumpy. Here's an explosion of the D2 that will make more sense to the less than spatially aware.

58090

Now you can see the phase plugs and ' guides ' more clearly. And the two diaphragms.
I am very curious as to how they arrived at the pattern of the slots in the phase plugs. Not the most obvious or intuiative layout. Are they perhaps 3D printing these ?
Keen to get an explanation if any JBL whiz's can get the skinny however sketchy from the elves.

M

[grumpy]

I am very curious as to how they arrived at the pattern of the slots in the phase plugs. Not the most obvious or intuiative layout. Are they perhaps 3D printing these ?


They briefly touch on both of those questions (diagonal layout over compression area, and use of rapid prototyping)
in materials for the M2 and the VTX-V25.

[macaroonie]

This might be a job for our man in Ohio :)

[Valentin]

These are the speakers to own right now. They sound better than anything I've heard. Sean Olive

i will take his word for it

i whant a pair

here is a video of namm 2013 M2 presentation

http://www.soundonsound.com/news?NewsID=15853

[4313B]

I want a pair.

I think we all do. :)

Thanks for the link! I don't think he said Mark's last name right but I could be wrong, laptop speakers. :rolleyes:

Six grand each... I'm totally stunned. Retail on the dual ring radiator is two grand all by itself!

Eighteen grand for LCR.

I think it is interesting how they are carefully marketing them. No mention of using them in a HT.

[grumpy]

6k/ea speaker box, plus dsp and amps (or combined in the Crown amp).
Still, less than I'd have guessed for a system.

... & yes, I think the interviewer said Gardner vs. Gander (doh)... Mark was
gentleman enough to ignore it.

[Titanium Dome]

Hmmm. Maybe I should have waited a month... :banghead:

$6k? Who'd have thought it?

[4313B]

Well spotted Grumpy. Here's an explosion of the D2 that will make more sense to the less than spatially aware.

58090

Now you can see the phase plugs and ' guides ' more clearly. And the two diaphragms.
I am very curious as to how they arrived at the pattern of the slots in the phase plugs. Not the most obvious or intuiative layout. Are they perhaps 3D printing these ?
Keen to get an explanation if any JBL whiz's can get the skinny however sketchy from the elves.

M


They briefly touch on both of those questions (diagonal layout over compression area, and use of rapid prototyping)
in materials for the M2 and the VTX-V25.Yes, on page ten of that PDF they show the machine in the lower right hand photo. It was building up an undisclosed part the last time I saw it in operation. I know parts for the 045 were created with it.
Hmmm. Maybe I should have waited a month... :banghead:

$6k? Who'd have thought it?I'm flabbergasted. That's a whole lot of loudspeaker for $6K if you compare it to anything Consumer is offering. Consumer does have the furniture grade enclosures though.

But what I am specifically thinking of is that Tannoy DC10A. It isn't even a contest... a pair of M2's for twelve grand versus a pair of DC10A's for eighteen grand?

And I don't think you'd have any trouble at all recouping your recent expenditure.

[Titanium Dome]

Yes, on page ten of that PDF they show the machine in the lower right hand photo. It was building up an undisclosed part the last time I saw it in operation. I know parts for the 045 were created with it.I'm flabbergasted. That's a whole lot of loudspeaker for $6K if you compare it to anything Consumer is offering. Consumer does have the furniture grade enclosures though.

But what I am specifically thinking of is that Tannoy DC10A. It isn't even a contest... a pair of M2's for twelve grand versus a pair of DC10A's for eighteen grand?

Yes, that's a disruptor both in price and performance.


And I don't think you'd have any trouble at all recouping your recent expenditure.

Yes, it's really no contest in the value department, plus it's one of a kind: really irreplaceable and so wonderful. Sometimes I'm too fickle and impatient. I've yet to realize the full potential of what I've got. :bash: I was just shocked into momentary aphasia when the words came out of Mark Gander's mouth. :eek:

Sooner or later there will be pair of M2s and Crowns out in the wild, and I'll patiently stalk them, and then... :leaving:

[ivica]

...................

I am very curious as to how they arrived at the pattern of the slots in the phase plugs. Not the most obvious or intuiative layout. Are they perhaps 3D printing these ?
Keen to get an explanation if any JBL whiz's can get the skinny however sketchy from the elves.

M

Hi macaroonie,

I think more about phase plug can be find in US-Patent US20110085692

http://www.google.com/patents/US20110085692

Regards
ivica

[ivica]

Hi,
Am I right , looking at the directivity of M2, that M2-horn allow about +/- 45 deg from 1kHz up to 8kHz,
while on about 15kHz Vertical and Horizontal angle is about half of that ( +/- 23deg)

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/index.html


Regards
ivica

[macaroonie]

Ivica thanks for the link. It poses more questions than it answers for example there are 16 pickup ducts on the forward dia end 32 on the back one. Curious as to why. Also there seem to be a few versions of the phase plug bullet and the ducting.
Nonetheless very helpful in understanding the workings of this innovative driver.

[martin_wu99]

Bet they sounded alot like your computer speakers!!:p
:applaud::applaud::crying:

[4313B]

Sooner or later there will be pair of M2s and Crowns out in the wild, and I'll patiently stalk them, and then... :leaving:Yep.

Me still being enamored with the 4430 type design even after all these years I'll probably have to own a pair of these one day.

And this is so much more then merely a better 4430. Hopefully this will push great sounding DSP to the forefront where it belongs. It's too powerful to ignore.

[audiomagnate]

I watched the NAMM vid and I still don't get the dual diaphragm thing. Can someone explain how that works? And seriously, nobody else sees the resemblance to the SVAs?

[ivica]

I watched the NAMM vid and I still don't get the dual diaphragm thing. Can someone explain how that works? And seriously, nobody else sees the resemblance to the SVAs?

RED

[macaroonie]

Here's a cross section of a 2405 with its annular diaphragm. I have put in red lines to accentuate the similarity , the coil being the one that goes down in the gap.

58102

Hope that helps.

[audiomagnate]

Thanks! Now I get it. There are subwoofers that work like that.

[macaroonie]

Kinda sorta but .....

[JuniorJBL]

You could pretty much have a new pair of speakers every month of the year. Move them around a bit and tweek till your hearts content or just leave um be!:D

[Tim Rinkerman]

Go to jblpro.com ...can't miss em'

[Dave_72]

Go to jblpro.com ...can't miss em'

Ok, thanks! I see them now! :)

[Dave_72]

Just out of curiousity, can you get the speakers without the amps and other electronics? I'd like to try a pair of Bryston 28BSST2s on those! :D

[Dave_72]

Hmmm. Maybe I should have waited a month... :banghead:

$6k? Who'd have thought it?

Same here. I feel I was conned. :help:

[4313B]

Same here. I feel I was conned. :help:I highly doubt that! I'd like to think that the Rep was thinking that he was doing you a good turn. I could be dreaming though. And you should be able to sell them if you don't like them. They are brand new right?
Just out of curiousity, can you get the speakers without the amps and other electronics? I'd like to try a pair of Bryston 28BSST2s on those! :DYes. It says in their brochure that they sound great right out of the box, something to that effect, and that the optional Crown backend merely makes them better.




I did just get the official word on the M2 components - none of them will be made available ala carte. No surprise there. Oh well, those waveguides looked quite nice. :rotfl:

[Dave_72]

I highly doubt that! I'd like to think that the Rep was thinking that he was doing you a good turn. I could be dreaming though. And you should be able to sell them if you don't like them. They are brand new right?Yes. It says in their brochure that they sound great right out of the box, something to that effect, and that the optional Crown backend merely makes them better.




I did just get the official word on the M2 components - none of them will be made available ala carte. No surprise there. Oh well, those waveguides looked quite nice. :rotfl:

Yeah, thanks for commiserating with me. Yeah, I suppose you're right. I was just getting irritated because these came out plus the $5,000 price drop on the S4700s. Oh well, c'est la vie.

No, I don't think I'm gonna sell, not now anyway. And yes, they are brand new. We'll see...

[grumpy]

I think the "exceptional accuracy "out of the box"" text just means that the presets supplied for the
BLU processor or I-Tech power amp would sound pretty good, but that further measurement/optimization
is possible and encouraged (room, use, preferences).

It's a biamp-only system as far as I can tell. If one wanted to "roll their own" DSP/amp solution, and JBL
will sell the driver/cabinet combination by itself (the $6K/ea number), I don't see any show stoppers,
especially if an EQ curve (freq/phase/amp) is provided.

To me this realistically looks like a $15K + amps, or $24K with amps stereo pair, for a turnkey system.

[4313B]

Ah!

*****

Yep, there plain as day:

The System Requires: One Crown® iTech 5000HD power amp for each speaker,
or BSS® Soundweb London Processor with Crown Macro-Tech® MA-5000i

I guess it pays to read everything. :rotfl:

[Titanium Dome]

Ah!

*****



I guess it pays to read everything. :rotfl:


Now why would we want to do that when it interferes with our wild-assed speculation?

--------------

Actually, I'm really glad to see that clarification. To me it seems to show a real commitment to getting the best QC in the end product in a wide variety of applications.

Something this big--and I don't mean size, I mean disruptive impact--needs to be excellent everywhere it's deployed. Letting some ass clown (someone like me, for example) hook it up to a couple of Soundcraftsmen amps from 1990 and a Technics six-band equalizer is not going to be countenanced. Especially when said clown might go online to AVS, Audiokarma, and AudioReview, and say the M2s are a huge disappointment and not the game changer they're claimed to be.

They know they've got something hot, and they're focused on generating maximum heat. :shocking:

[Bobecca]

or BSS® Soundweb London Processor with Crown Macro-Tech® MA-5000i

Thats why my fingers start to itch every time I read that text:applaud:
Oboy, this descisions one have to make all the time.

What is the power requirement needed to feed that horn. Can it be 1250 Watts in 8 ohms:confused:

I know that there is a possibility to set a limit of power in RMS in Crowns. Interesting to see the DSP settings.

[Tim Rinkerman]

Yea, I realize BSS,Crown, and too many more are all in the same gene pool now,but please...if you are being duped into anything, it would be the BSS piece (of shi*). A speaker will only sound as good as what is driving it...no matter who makes it. Brand new speaker technology best displayed by twelve year old digital technology...? If you say so....

[4313B]

Interesting to see the DSP settings.That was my point very early on. Once one knows that, they can do whatever they want. There is no reason at all to be married to any specific brand of back end.

And honestly, one doesn't even need to know that if they have any reasonable in room measurement system. Just set the crossover at 800 Hz, apply whatever DSP one wants, or not, and let it all happen. If one can't get it to sound good then that's their personal problem.

At the end of the day, it is a 15-inch bass driver and a 1.5-inch exit dual ring radiator bolted to a waveguide, all mounted in a rectangular vented box, granted every part being SOTA ( except the faston connectors on that two thousand dollar ring radiator, that just bugs the hell out of me :p )


I just didn't realize that there wasn't a passive option. I didn't read everything carefully. Depending on how much DSP it takes to make this system sound good a passive option might not be difficult to whip up at all. Feed the DSP drive to LEAP along with the impedance curves of the drivers and viola! Just saying...

Makes sense though, Pros aren't afraid of sticking an amp on virtually every transducer and passive parts would just drive up the cost. ;)


Especially when said clown might go online to AVS, Audiokarma, and AudioReview, and say the M2s are a huge disappointment and not the game changer they're claimed to be.The folks that matter just don't care.

[Mr. Widget]

Yea, I realize BSS,Crown, and too many more are all in the same gene pool now,but please...if you are being duped into anything, it would be the BSS piece (of shi*). A speaker will only sound as good as what is driving it...no matter who makes it. Brand new speaker technology best displayed by twelve year old digital technology...? If you say so....You are expressing one of my concerns... I don't agree with you in absolute terms, but I am concerned that the required electronics could be a limiting factor.

It seems that most here have missed the important fact that these speakers are professional monitors. They are not actually intended for home use. They are designed for professional studio use. The requirements for a studio monitor are not necessarily the same as a home playback system.

A mastering studio on the other hand does have requirements similar to ours at home for critical listening. The better mastering rooms typically use pretty high end loudspeakers. I'll wait and see if the JBL Master Reference Monitors are well accepted by the great mastering engineers like Bob Ludwig, Paul Stubblebine, Bernie Grundman, Doug Sax, Bob Katz etc. If they are great speakers, these guys will embrace them.

Again, I am not trying to be a contrarian, but I would want to hear them or at least read about their acceptance by those I respect before assuming they are the next great thing. They may very well be amazingly good, but they may also simply be amazingly good at low distortion extreme SPLs, but not necessarily better for home use than some of GT's recent TOTL home creations.



Widget

[Tim Rinkerman]

Well stated, and point well taken, Mr. Widget..! And I really hope there are no reputable mastering rooms with Soundweb's in their signal chain...(if there are, can you state it on the recording's cover..like milk cartons with hormone warnings?)

[Titanium Dome]

Well stated, and point well taken, Mr. Widget..! And I really hope there are no reputable mastering rooms with Soundweb's in their signal chain...(if there are, can you state it on the recording's cover..like milk cartons with hormone warnings?)


If you can't tell without it in writing, I don't see what your point is. If you can only tell after it's in writing, then that's a different problem.

[Mr. Widget]

If you can't tell without it in writing, I don't see what your point is. If you can only tell after it's in writing, then that's a different problem.
Perhaps as a cautionary statement to prevent an unwanted purchase? Or to lower expectations?

I bought a record, as in a vinyl copy of the album of a musician I enjoy. I bought the vinyl copy to get what I had hoped to be a better sounding version. Upon listening I was rather disappointed. I read the liner notes and discovered that this 1984 recording had been recorded digitally. The vinyl sounded no better than the CD version... both victims of early digital.

Dome, I think what you are trying to say is that if signal chain is so transparent that one needs documentation to criticize it then no criticism is deserved. I would agree with you here... however we all recognize some systems/signal chains sound better than others... the result is the combined effect of every part.


Widget

[4313B]

You are expressing one of my concerns... I don't agree with you in absolute terms, but I am concerned that the required electronics could be a limiting factor.We really need to see the curve in the intended backend. If it is a terrible mess then I can see cause for pause.

I suppose it is possible that this 15-inch 2-way system thoroughly sucks without the intended backend but I'm having a hard time believing that. I view it the same as Titanium Dome's HT system wherein it sounded good before it was digitally tweaked and it sounds even better now.

The 2216Nd used up to 800 Hz in both the S4700 and M2 evidently doesn't care which box it gets bolted into. I do find it interesting that it looses 2 dB of efficiency in the M2 box. A product of carefully balancing the mid-bass with the bottom end using DSP?


It seems that most here have missed the important fact that these speakers are professional monitors. They are not actually intended for home use. They are designed for professional studio use. The requirements for a studio monitor are not necessarily the same as a home playback system.I just see a box containing a couple of really nice drivers without a passive network waiting for someone to voice it however they want.


A mastering studio on the other hand does have requirements similar to ours at home for critical listening. The better mastering rooms typically use pretty high end loudspeakers. I'll wait and see if the JBL Master Reference Monitors are well accepted by the great mastering engineers like Bob Ludwig, Paul Stubblebine, Bernie Grundman, Doug Sax, Bob Katz etc. If they are great speakers, these guys will embrace them.And the ultra-low distortion, ultra-wide bandwidth transducers with significant dynamic range and power handling are a great choice. But it appears the backend makes it what it is, whether that is a Studio Monitor or a 2-channel stereo system in some guy's basement. There isn't some big 4345 passive network in the M2 dictating how JBL wants the system to sound.


Again, I am not trying to be a contrarian, but I would want to hear them or at least read about their acceptance by those I respect before assuming they are the next great thing. They may very well be amazingly good, but they may also simply be amazingly good at low distortion extreme SPLs, but not necessarily better for home use than some of GT's recent TOTL home creations.Well, the 2216Nd is most decidely not a 150x Series transducer.

And while the D2 certainly isn't a 476, Mg or Be, it has to be a cut above the 175Nd-3 and 138Nd combo doesn't it? It is something like four times the cost.

I doubt there is much cost difference between the horn castings, the S3900 and S4700 casting might even cost more. The dispersion patterns are obviously different. 90x60 and 60x30 compared to 120x100.

I think it is unfortunate that the M2 falls between the S3900 and S4700 in price. I don't think it will end up being a big deal in the marketplace though. Consumers will never find out about it unless Pro decides to go after that segment.

[Titanium Dome]

You are expressing one of my concerns... I don't agree with you in absolute terms, but I am concerned that the required electronics could be a limiting factor.

Everything could be a limiting factor.


It seems that most here have missed the important fact that these speakers are professional monitors. They are not actually intended for home use. They are designed for professional studio use. The requirements for a studio monitor are not necessarily the same as a home playback system. I don't get this impression at all. Most people commenting here know exactly what the M2 is intended for. That's almost never stopped folks here from trying to do different things with any JBL product. Especially right now the enthusiasm is very high, so it's great to see forum members having both simple and insane fun speculating abut the possibilities. I haven't seen this much passion in a while.


A mastering studio on the other hand does have requirements similar to ours at home for critical listening. The better mastering rooms typically use pretty high end loudspeakers. I'll wait and see if the JBL Master Reference Monitors are well accepted by the great mastering engineers like Bob Ludwig, Paul Stubblebine, Bernie Grundman, Doug Sax, Bob Katz etc. If they are great speakers, these guys will embrace them.

These people are accomplished professionals, no doubt about it. Whether or not they adopt this speaker has less to do with its merits than with the other realities of the music and recording biz. Who gave what to whom for what kind of endorsement and for how long, etc.


Again, I am not trying to be a contrarian :)


I would want to hear them or at least read about their acceptance by those I respect before assuming they are the next great thing. They may very well be amazingly good, but they may also simply be amazingly good at low distortion extreme SPLs, but not necessarily better for home use than some of GT's recent TOTL home creations.

Yes, I'd like to hear them, as would everyone posting here, so who'll be the first, I wonder? As noted above, acceptance is immaterial to me, because I'd still want to hear them, and even if the big guys liked them it's possible I wouldn't, or vice-versa.

As for that last part, I think that's a keen observation. There's a lot of really good speakers, there are many great speakers, and then there are Timbers TOTL creations over the past decade. He's at the peak of his profession, with the combined strengths of years of experience, great intuition, technical prowess, professional accomplishment, and superior insight. Plus he loves music and listening to it at home, where a lot of his inspiration for the next technical leap comes from. One of the ineffable qualities of his recent work is that it has soul. If there's an area that might be missing in the M2 for me, it likely would be that soul. I'm not asserting it's missing; I'm stating that it can't be found in the measurements. It has to be heard. Or maybe to 4313B's point, the soul comes from the voice that it is given by the individual tweaker.

As a side note, there are a lot of speaker builders who put their heart and soul into their creations, and you can hear it at the audio shows where they've schlepped their stuff for others to hear. In most of those cases, it's not the soul but the technical side of things that I find lacking, and sometimes maybe I don't like the soul I hear, too. ;)



Widget[/QUOTE]

[4313B]

As for that last part, I think that's a keen observation. There's a lot of really good speakers, there are many great speakers, and then there are Timbers TOTL creations over the past decade. He's at the peak of his profession, with the combined strengths of years of experience, great intuition, technical prowess, professional accomplishment, and superior insight. Plus he loves music and listening to it at home, where a lot of his inspiration for the next technical leap comes from. One of the ineffable qualities of his recent work is that it has soul. If there's an area that might be missing in the M2 for me, it likely would be that soul. I'm not asserting it's missing; I stating that it can't be found in the measurements. It has to be heard.+1



I agree with Mr. Widget in that the M2 system really is a tool as designed. The fun part is, it is open ended. However, as some at JBL have pointed out, the D2 might possibly be a bit too sterile for the typical home user. It might take some getting used to and it might take a certain backend warmth. Only time and experience will tell.

[JuniorJBL]

Well stated, and point well taken, Mr. Widget..! And I really hope there are no reputable mastering rooms with Soundweb's in their signal chain...(if there are, can you state it on the recording's cover..like milk cartons with hormone warnings?)


True, but I would say that the Soundwebs are far and wide better than the crap DBX is giving us (if you can even call it that!!). We are in the new norm though as far as processing and I do not think ANY studio is going to revert to analog processing. Digital is just to easy vs analog, besides this stuff will continue to get better and better.:)

For example:
I just removed a $2500 pre/pro from my theater and replaced it with a computer and a measly $400 audio interface and it sounds at least 75% better than the prepro that is less than 6 months old.
My software also has some great DSP functions so I do not think I will ever return to the days of old either.

As 4313b said: unless the curve in the backend is total crap and the M2's just suck, then choose a processor you like and move on.:)

[Mr. Widget]

Yes, I'd like to hear them, as would everyone posting here, so who'll be the first, I wonder? Industry acceptance... insider comments from some trusted sources at Harman; these will be interesting and informative, but ultimately it is about listening. As you said, even if it takes the world by storm, it may or may not be our respective cup of tea.

As I type this I am listening to the E2s... and am grinning from ear to ear!
It would be nice if my laptop had a quieter fan. Signing Off!


Widget

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think its useful and re visit the NAMM video presentation and look at how the M2s story is sold.

Firstly the prespective on JBL monitor history and that the M2 is positioned to fill a gap between the cinema systems and the smaller 43xx studio systems and JBL sees a need to re enter the large monitor business. (In other words why are they doing this?)

Then we hear the tried and proven message that JBL has always been about the transducers and on problem solving with technical innovations.

The buzz words are then hitting all the buttons that the recording business purchasing man wants to hear.

The whole thing is it is something different in terms of how it works and gets into the detail of the benefits to the engineer. (this innovative style of marketing is very much the drive at the moment particularly at trade shows and JBL needs to have a new innovative marketing push)

The Crown DSP front end is recommended sold separately.

I guess the distinction here from the consumer K2 marketing is that its a technical sales presentation pitching to the engineer rather than a play on reproduction perfection close to a live performance for the home consumer. (recall the launch of the E2 in Japan at the hotel)

If you cast back 30 years ago to the white paper on the JBL 44XX bi radial monitors there are a lot of similarities in the approach to marketing the innovation.

I think the M2 will be a new flagship for innovation on the Pro side of JBL.

As to why Be has not been used well Mark Gander makes reference to Be but explains the innovation behind the dual annulus principle (ring radiator approach) and use of a synethetic materials. I wonder if one of the engineers stumpled on the idea by accident while he was doing a repair job on an 077 in his garage one weekend? And then the brain wave...hey boss I have an idea for that new monitor. Stranger things have happened.

It could well be that with the power handling required this approach as a better road to take. Also given a number of players in the Be driver business now there is nothing all that exclusive to having Be in a driver.

Costmetically the M2 is not beautiful and is much of a black box fill of tricks. The TOL consumer products being more costly to manufacture.

[Mctwins]

It seems that most here have missed the important fact that these speakers are professional monitors. They are not actually intended for home use. They are designed for professional studio use. The requirements for a studio monitor are not necessarily the same as a home playback system.


Widget

I don't agree with you here. I am using PRX600 series in my home and my twinbrother (Bobecca) uses Cinema Screen Array in one of the room, you have probably seen the pictures on my thread here.

We have great result in both our system when it comes too how it sound, and belive me, it sounds great. To me, proaudio is the way to go.

If I didn't have any system today, I would immediately bought this system with the Crown amps. A real system without a passive x-over, yummie:bouncy:

[Mr. Widget]

I don't agree with you here. I am using PRX600 series in my home and my twinbrother (Bobecca) uses Cinema Screen Array in one of the room, you have probably seen the pictures on my thread here. I am not saying that because they are pro they will suck... I am saying that since their intended application isn't in home music playback one shouldn't assume they will work ideally in that application. I have no doubt they will work well, but I am not willing to assume they will be as good as comparably priced home systems from JBL or Revel.

They may be outstanding for home stereo playback, but without an audition and more data, I wouldn't make that assumption.


Widget

[Tim Rinkerman]

Home system vs. Studio monitor Bowl 2013!!!!
Studio monitors are meant to be accurate to a fault, to make hearing frequency clashes and balances more obvious...home systems are meant to please the greatest amount of ears with the least deviation from the original format. The best you could do in either case is to loose the "sound" of the speaker altogether..leaving only what you want to hear, the way you want to hear it,with the tonal and spatial balance you feel is correct.
If you can consistently come up with the correct tonal and spatial balances to please several thousand or more people at a time, you can be considered an "engineer"...if you come up with a set of spatial and tonal balances that pleases everyone that comes into your listening room, you can be an "audiophile". 45 years of experience has proven that the 2 are not necessarily the same, nor are they mutually exclusive.

[4313B]

They may be outstanding for home stereo playback, but without an audition and more data, I wouldn't make that assumption.I think we're all waiting for you, Titanium Dome and Grumpy to set up another listening session in Harman's double blind room. K2, M2, 1400 Array. Maybe the S4700 too just to see how both systems handle the 2216Nd from 800 Hz on down. I have very little doubt the M2 will spank the S4700 above 800 Hz.

[grumpy]

That would be an interesting comparison, but as different as I've heard 1/2 of those systems in different environments, I'm not sure it would result in a simple or even useful ranking. A subjective opinion of various system strengths and weaknesses as perceived by each listener, in that particular setting would be the result (which would still be interesting to many forum members). Convincing the folks at JBL that such a comparo would sell more speakers (pro or consumer) might be a trick, but TD's a pretty good magician ... Interdepartmental challenge? :D

[Titanium Dome]

That would be an interesting comparison, but as different as I've heard 1/2 of those systems in different environments, I'm not sure it would result in a simple or even useful ranking. A subjective opinion of various system strengths and weaknesses as perceived by each listener, in that particular setting would be the result (which would still be interesting to many forum members). Convincing the folks at JBL that such a comparo would sell more speakers (pro or consumer) might be a trick, but TD's a pretty good magician ... Interdepartmental challenge? :D

Hmmm. :idea:

[ngccglp]

Sarcasm? ;)

not really, I am quite excited to listen to the speakers, but it will be awhile before we get it over here, so a properly recorded YouTube video would be the next best thing. Those videos done by Kenji hosoi are quite cool. :bouncy:

[4313B]

As to why Be has not been used well Mark Gander makes reference to Be but explains the innovation behind the dual annulus principle (ring radiator approach) and use of a synethetic materials.Plus Be is so insanely expensive by comparison. An example would be the Be diaphragm in the 2435 at 3.98x the cost of the aluminum diaphragm in the 2431.

Without looking it up again, I recall the D2430K diaphragm being roughly the same price as the 2431 diaphragm. Somewhere in that range.


Costmetically the M2 is not beautiful and is much of a black box fill of tricks. The TOL consumer products being more costly to manufacture.Yeah, it could use a blue baffle and some oiled black walnut. ;) Obviously it really is targeted to engineers. My wife doesn't want it in the living room. :rolleyes: She likes the Tannoys. :banghead: Oh well, it was them or B&O's...



In any case, this is what Zilch always wanted, a compression driver bolted to a waveguide capable of flat response from 800 Hz to 20 kHz. He would have had a ball with this thing. :yes: And it is comparatively economical.

[ivica]

................

....In any case, this is what Zilch always wanted, a compression driver bolted to a waveguide capable of flat response from 800 Hz to 20 kHz. He would have had a ball with this thing. :yes: And it is comparatively economical.

Hi 4313B,

The real problem seems to me would be horizontal dispersion for the frequencies over 10kH, even it seems to me that the used horn has some kind of 'teeth' "trying" to 'invoke' detraction for the HF. It seems that the same problem is present on the BMS4590/92 coaxial drivers too. So I can say that here "we have" wide bandwidth transducer, but there is more room for upgrade to the appropriated horn.

It would be interesting what kind of equalization has been applied to the D2430k+HORN combo.

Regards
ivica

[4313B]

It would be interesting what kind of equalization has been applied to the D2430k+HORN combo.Yep, we really need that information.

[martin_wu99]

Everybody here are so exciting on M2:D:applaud:

[spkrman57]

Everybody here are so exciting on M2:D:applaud:

Although I'm going to be doing a 2.5 way w2226J's and 2446/Be on Yuichi cloned A-290's real soon.


The concept of a decent pro LF driver w/good horn and driver and let the electronics smooth it out for every environment makes sense.


I'm an old stubborn coot who still prefers passive crossovers and low powered tube amps. DSP stuff is more than I want to play with.


I love this thread for the discussion and for the M2!

Regards, Ron

[martin_wu99]

Although I'm going to be doing a 2.5 way w2226J's and 2446/Be on Yuichi cloned A-290's real soon.


The concept of a decent pro LF driver w/good horn and driver and let the electronics smooth it out for every environment makes sense.


I'm an old stubborn coot who still prefers passive crossovers and low powered tube amps. DSP stuff is more than I want to play with.


I love this thread for the discussion and for the M2!

Regards, Ron
So good to find that you are also a pro JBL for home use lover,me too:applaud:
I found that 4628B,4698B,4730 can be used in home,what else do you find?
I think with CROWN ma-5000,M2 is a real monster,and will not be hi-end speaker no longer:banghead:
But i love M2 and this thread too.

Regards,Martin

[pathfindermwd]

Please leave the reference threads alone for the members with relevant insight !

There are plenty of threads here on the forum you can post your experience in .

thanks , Rich


What relevant insight? Everything written here so far has been pure speculation of a product nobody has heard, mostly (if not completely) by people who have no intention of using the product in it's intended setting. There are no forums here for professional loudspeaker discussions, the post is in general information. The forum is for enthusiasts.

Now you and I are both off-topic. Let's let those who want to dream and discuss the topic have their fun. :)

[richluvsound]

Yeah , your right . I have been here before . Thank you for putting me in my place !

[macaroonie]

There's no time like tomorrow to make your dreams come true

58120

[Mctwins]

What relevant insight? Everything written here so far has been pure speculation of a product nobody has heard, mostly (if not completely) by people who have no intention of using the product in it's intended setting. There are no forums here for professional loudspeaker discussions, the post is in general information. The forum is for enthusiasts.

Now you and I are both off-topic. Let's let those who want to dream and discuss the topic have their fun. :)

I didn't listening to my PRX600 series or my JBL 4319 or, even my brothers Cinema Screen Arrays, we just bought it.

So, where can one go and listen to these speakers. Ok, one can go and listen to cinema screen in a cinema. The only way to listen to these speakers is to buy it and then just enjoy it.

If all of my speakers sounds great, then, I have absolutely no doubt that these M2 will also sound great.

Personally, I have never been dissapointed with the sound of JBL and I certainly will not be dissapointed with how the M2 gonna sound.

Well, that me:)

[richluvsound]

Screw it , actually ,I'll stand by my statement . I was taught that if I have nothing to contribute that is nothing more than a narrow ill informed opinion then i should keep my mouth shut and maybe I might learn something .

The folks with insight are either the members with the experience or the finance to implement the M2 successfully into a home application . Members with the engineering experience and the understanding are best placed best to conjecture . This forum is the finest reference for JBL old and new on the web , I for one would like that to continue . Many of us have invested our resources to that purpose .

Before we know it , they'll be pictures of bloody cats all over the thread ;)

End of rant ... This is not Face Book !

Rich

[Valentin]

Interesting for Me


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mr. Widgethttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=343480#post343480)It seems that most here have missed the important fact that these speakers are professional monitors. They are not actually intended for home use. They are designed for professional studio use. The requirements for a studio monitor are not necessarily the same as a home playback system.

I find that a true Pro Monitor system and a Hifi/Hiend speaker share de same sound quality objectives, thats the only way to get even close to what the art production/recording team intended. Studio requierments usaly difer in that the system will be played all day 6 day a week so all thermal variables should be very well thougt and allsow durability. But de sound quality objectives are the same

Harmans R&D team have concluded that a very wide and homogenios dispersion is critical(first refletion points) to complement the on axis reponse that has been put intoo pratice in all the hi end JBL / Revel sistems look at the Everest 2 and K2 horizontal coverage and Revel Ultima dipersion Plots

58122

58123

I see that this new Waveguiede/Horn dispersion resembles alot more the response of an excelent direct radiating cone dome system (the mayority of systems are of this type) with out compromising the dynamics of horn based sistems etc etc etc

sow we have a proven 15" driver in a litle biger box than the 4700 and a very nice and capable hi freq compresion driver in what seams to be and excelent waveguide/horn and you have a dsp for xo and end room fine tuneing

DSP can cause some problems Indeed but the room problems that it can help with by far outwait them. my 2 hz

[4313B]

Note that the blip in the S9800 response is caused by the 435Be/045Be interaction. I just wanted that to be clear.

Also note that the cost of the D2430K is a bit less than the 435Be/045Be combination, roughly half if I remember correctly.

[4313B]

As 4313b said: unless the curve in the backend is total crap and the M2's just suck, then choose a processor you like and move on.:)Well, it would seem that is the key. The M2 loudspeaker is limited to how good the active filters and DSP processors are.

Some people might find the ultra-low distortion transducers a little too sterile.


G.T. has already visited this concept with his Everest II's by going active and applying DSP.

[JuniorJBL]

So I called JBL and asked if it had an internal xo as well and the answer was yes it DOES have an internal xo.

So right out of the box you could use it with 2 channels of amplification for the PAIR of speakers.:)

[herve M]

Very good news.:):)

Herve

[Mr. Widget]

So I called JBL and asked if it had an internal xo as well and the answer was yes it DOES have an internal xo.

So right out of the box you could use it with 2 channels of amplification for the PAIR of speakers.:)Did you ask the even more important questions, are they shipping yet, and are there any stocking dealers near you? ;)


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

Did you ask the even more important questions, are they shipping yet, and are there any stocking dealers near you? ;)


Widget


Shipping in March. I have a pretty good connection at a pro dealer that is one of the dealers for the M2.:)

[grumpy]

Well, that's probably a big group sigh (relief?) I just heard...

That's the first squeak I'd heard about an internal crossover
(unless they mean internal to the I-tech amp, vs. an internal -passive- crossover...
a complete one at that, vs. something like the SAM-HF units that have part of the
high-pass and some contouring built in).

I should just shut up and be patient :bomb:

[Titanium Dome]

Well, it would seem that is the key. The M2 loudspeaker is limited to how good the active filters and DSP processors are.

Some people might find the ultra-low distortion transducers a little too sterile.


G.T. has already visited this concept with his Everest II's by going active and applying DSP.

Hearing is believing. Indescribable.

[Bobecca]

So I called JBL and asked if it had an internal xo as well and the answer was yes it DOES have an internal xo.

So right out of the box you could use it with 2 channels of amplification for the PAIR of speakers.:)

Hmmm
So it means that an internal x-over is working together with the x-over settings in Crowns:confused:
This is something new in x-over way of thinking. I pretty much doubt that this is the case.

I believe that the x-overs is only made in the Crowns, but what do I know.

[Valentin]

Hmmm
So it means that an internal x-over is working together with the x-over settings in Crowns:confused:
This is something new in x-over way of thinking. I pretty much doubt that this is the case.

I believe that the x-overs is only made in the Crowns, but what do I know

Pasives are an option (maybe)

actives are the top option and the one promoted in the catalog

[gferrell]

Maybe it has a blue jumper :blink:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19772&stc=1&d=1161465703

[Titanium Dome]

Maybe it has a blue jumper :blink:
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19772&stc=1&d=1161465703


Ah, the L7!

The blue jumper!

Well I know the L7, and the M2 is no L7! (Thank goodness in 2012!)

[timc]

Or even 2013 ;)

[Titanium Dome]

Or even 2013 ;)

It's 2013? :eek:

[audiomagnate]

So I called JBL and asked if it had an internal xo as well and the answer was yes it DOES have an internal xo. So right out of the box you could use it with 2 channels of amplification for the PAIR of speakers.:)That's what I got from the NAMM video as well. The NAMM video also mentioned the March ship date. I would be surprised if all passive components weren't bypassed when in active mode, although I've owned plenty of speakers that do it that way in "bi-amp" mode,(ADS 1530s, Infinty 2.5s etc).

[Valentin]

SonicScoop had the opportunity to experience the M2 this past October, in a private listening session at AES hosted by top engineer/mixer Frank Filipetti. What we heard was extremely musical, displaying tremendous clarity and detail throughout the sound spectrum, across a very wide-ranging listening position.

http://www.sonicscoop.com/2013/01/25/jbl-professional-debuts-m2-master-reference-monitor/

[JuniorJBL]

Thanks for the reference Valentin!

[4313B]

Yeah, I saw that the other day. Figured everyone else who cared had already Googled it. ;)


across a very wide-ranging listening positionIt might be prudent to have a third one for center channel anyway, although I didn't really need one with the 4430's.

That solid wall of sound from a top notch LCR is pretty damn killer.

March is so far away. :rotfl:

[grumpy]

Yes, but it will be a "game-changer" :)

[audiomagnate]

Yes, but it will be a "game-changer" :)

I hate that term almost as much as..."at the end of the day."

[gferrell]

Who among our friends on this site will be the first to pull the trigger on a pair?

[4313B]

I know two members who have been talking to Pro Dealers and one who has been talking to a Rep. We'll see who gets the first pair home. :)

My personal problem is with the top amp on the D2. That's a whole lot of amp for such a task.

[ivica]

Who among our friends on this site will be the first to pull the trigger on a pair?

I believe that "the owner of the GOLD-MINE" would be among the first.
58195

Regards
Ivica

[Valentin]

I know two members who have been talking to Pro Dealers and one who has been talking to a Rep. We'll see who gets the first pair home. :)

My personal problem is with the top amp on the D2. That's a whole lot of amp for such a task.

well well

just use a bss unit and the amps of your choice

may be a bryston 4b for the woofer and a 2.5b for the horn that should cover a home listenig expirence

lets see what config doese de first forum member implements . many choices

[4313B]

well well

just use a bss unit and the amps of your choice

may be a bryston 4b for the woofer and a 2.5b for the horn that should cover a home listenig expirence

lets see what config doese de first forum member implements . many choicesAgreed.

I actually find myself interested in how all this turns out! :yes:

[JuniorJBL]

I think I would look for a MC252 to go with my MC602. But then again I like my mac's.

But your right, an Itech 5000 for a pair of compression drivers? :blink:

[Bobecca]

I would like to see the settings in the I-techs. I know that in my Crown MAi 5000 I can set the appropriate RMS limiter for a specific transducer. I dont think it is 1250 Watts in 8 ohms for the horns;).
For the bass, yes!

[pos]

But your right, an Itech 5000 for a pair of compression drivers? :blink:
That is not an Ithech for the pair of compression driver, it is one channel of Ithech for one compression driver and the other one for the woofer, per side. So the power supply is shared between the woofer and the compression driver. That means that the woofer will be able to use a bit more of the power supply...
Class D power is cheap, why bother?
On those amps you can also lower the gain down to +22dB (8V sensitivity), which is lower than almost any standard consumer amp on the market (I am not talking about the input attenuator, but the actual gain of the amplifier), and even pro amps (most of them are set to +26dB or +32dB). So the output signal will be lower for a given input signal, and this will also reduce the hiss the amp will produce on the compression driver (not even talking about the noise coming from source gears).
Finally, the DC offset (+/-3mV) is also likely to be far smaller than any traditional A/B amp, which is a good thing if you intend to plug a compression driver without any passive component...

[4313B]

Well, however you slice it, at the end of the day, this is going to be a real game changer.

[JuniorJBL]

That is not an Ithech for the pair of compression driver, it is one channel of Ithech for one compression driver and the other one for the woofer, per side. So the power supply is shared between the woofer and the compression driver. That means that the woofer will be able to use a bit more of the power supply...Class D power is cheap, why bother?On those amps you can also lower the gain down to +22dB (8V sensitivity), which is lower than almost any standard consumer amp on the market (I am not talking about the input attenuator, but the actual gain of the amplifier), and even pro amps (most of them are set to +26dB or +32dB). So the output signal will be lower for a given input signal, and this will also reduce the hiss the amp will produce on the compression driver (not even talking about the noise coming from source gears).Finally, the DC offset (+/-3mV) is also likely to be far smaller than any traditional A/B amp, which is a good thing if you intend to plug a compression driver without any passive component...Let me re-word my comment, Do you really need 1250 watts for a compression driver?My point being, that is overkill!! Not sure how much overkill I want to do with a class D amp.

These are of course my opinions.

[Valentin]

by the way The BSS units are extremly noisy with the fan always on

man i will have to make a special box to house it.

if the studio does not hava a noise rack room it is going to bother some.

[4313B]

They just went with an off the shelf solution they had in inventory. It's left to us to do whatever we deem necessary.


Have you guys been keeping track of the people showing up to give these things a listen in the studios?

[JuniorJBL]

by the way The BSS units are extremly noisy with the fan always on

man i will have to make a special box to house it.

if the studio does not hava a noise rack room it is going to bother some.


I just received my minidsp 10X10 and thinking it could be a pretty good solution/substitute to the BSS unit.:dont-know:

[4313B]

I just received my minidsp 10X10 and thinking it could be a pretty good solution/substitute to the BSS unit.:dont-know:Hopefully it isn't merely MP3 quality.

[JuniorJBL]

Hopefully it isn't merely MP3 quality.Hopefully, their claims of good DAC's/software will stand true. 128k would sure suck!:eek:

Any thoughts as to the sound of yours? Mine is still in the box!!:rotfl:

[4313B]

Hopefully it isn't merely MP3 quality.Oh wait... that Crown backend is only MP3 quality so you shouldn't really hear a difference using the hundred dollar miniDSP versus the twelve thousand dollar Crowns. Unless, of course, the miniDSP is actually better than MP3 quality.

Doh! :D


Hopefully, their claims of good DAC's/software will stand true. 128k would sure suck!:eek:

Any thoughts as to the sound of yours? Mine is still in the box!!:rotfl:Mine did make it out of the box. I did get an external power supply hooked up. I did hook up some Tannoys and that little mini Emotiva amp to my laptop and it works. MP3 source media only so far though so nothing of real value to report.

I view it primarily as a rapid prototyping tool, like SoundEASY without the learning curve and hardware requirements. :rotfl:

[pos]

Let me re-word my comment, Do you really need 1250 watts for a compression driver?My point being, that is overkill!! Not sure how much overkill I want to do with a class D amp.

These are of course my opinions.
Granted :D
But it is what it is: a package that is not that expensive (probably less expensive than the equivalent with MC amps, and *at least* less cumbersome to operate) and probably sounds mighty good (neutral).


I just received my minidsp 10X10 and thinking it could be a pretty good solution/substitute to the BSS unit.:dont-know:The minidsp 10x10 is an IIR crossover, whereas the Crown is a FIR crossover (also able to do IIR filters of course, but looking at the published curves I bet FIR filters and probably inverse convolutions are in use for the M2 preset). You will need a miniSHARC (or one openDRC per side if you are not into DIY) to replicate the EQ preset in use in the Ithech.
That is, if they publish anything more than just preset files for their proprietary Crown/BSS products...
At the very least we should be able to record an impulse of the correction in the BSS crossover (if someone has one), and use that (after some cleaning) to operate the convolution with the miniSHARC or openDRC.

[JuniorJBL]

Oh wait... that Crown backend is only MP3 quality so you shouldn't really hear a difference using the hundred dollar miniDSP versus the twelve thousand dollar Crowns. Unless, of course, the miniDSP is actually better than MP3 quality.

Doh! :D
:rotfl:




Mine did make it out of the box. I did get an external power supply hooked up. I did hook up some Tannoys and that little mini Emotiva amp to my laptop and it works. MP3 source media only so far though so nothing of real value to report.

I view it primarily as a rapid prototyping tool, like SoundEASY without the learning curve and hardware requirements. :rotfl:

I may get home early and put mine in the theater this afternoon and get a glimpse of what it will sound like.
Or maybe I should put an HPA2 on top of the MAC and try it with the arrays? Hmmmmm.

[JuniorJBL]

Granted :DBut it is what it is: a package that is not that expensive (probably less expensive than the equivalent with MC amps, and *at least* less cumbersome to operate) and probably sounds mighty good (neutral).The minidsp 10x10 is an IIR crossover, whereas the Crown is a FIR crossover (also able to do IIR filters of course, but looking at the published curves I bet FIR filters and probably inverse convolutions are in use for the M2 preset). You will need a miniSHARC (or one openDRC per side if you are not into DIY) to replicate the EQ preset in use in the Ithech.That is, if they publish anything more than just preset files for their proprietary Crown/BSS products...At the very least we should be able to record an impulse of the correction in the BSS crossover (if someone has one), and use that (after some cleaning) to operate the convolution with the miniSHARC or openDRC.

Almost certinly cheeper than the Mac's! I absolutely agree though!!

But as a starting point the minidsp should get you a baseline to start with. At this point we are really on the begining edge of quality DSP functions and I think it will get better soon. (I hope!:))

I should also add that I have been using Jriver media center and they have some pretty good (cool) DSP functions that you can customize to a decent degree with the PC before it even gets to your audio interface. It is fun to play with for sure!;)

[pos]

I should also add that I have been using Jriver media center and they have some pretty good (cool) DSP functions that you can customize to a decent degree with the PC before it even gets to your audio interface. It is fun to play with for sure!;)

You can even use Jriver's own multichannel convolution engine to do the whole crossover (with a multichannel soundcard).

Here is a tutorial (in French, sorry) written by JIM on how to operate this:
http://jimmy.thomas.free.fr/Jriver/Tuto-Jriver-RePhase-HolmImpulse.pdf
It is using rePhase (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rephase/) (a small free software I am developing) to build the actual FIR filters and EQs, as well as phase linearization.
Of course it can also be used with an openDRC or a miniSHARC.

[JuniorJBL]

You can even use Jriver's own multichannel convolution engine to do the whole crossover (with a multichannel soundcard).

Here is a tutorial (in French, sorry) written by JIM on how to operate this:
http://jimmy.thomas.free.fr/Jriver/Tuto-Jriver-RePhase-HolmImpulse.pdf
It is using rePhase (http://sourceforge.net/projects/rephase/) (a small free software I am developing) to build the actual FIR filters and EQs, as well as phase linearization.
Of course it can also be used with an openDRC or a miniSHARC.

That's awesome! I am currently using a saffire pro 40 10 ch unit in my theater with the convolution engine. It's pretty cool!!;)

[Valentin]

They just went with an off the shelf solution they had in inventory. It's left to us to do whatever we deem necessary.


Have you guys been keeping track of the people showing up to give these things a listen in the studios?

top of the crop :applaud:
:applaud::applaud:
:applaud:

[Dave_72]

Shipping in March. I have a pretty good connection at a pro dealer that is one of the dealers for the M2.:)

So, are you getting them?

[JuniorJBL]

So, are you getting them?

I will probably end up with a pair after the summer. We normally camp 3-4 times a month during the summer so audio gets put on hold during that time.:)


I am however currently working on getting an MC-402 to pair with the MC-602. I think if this happens I will be set amp wise.

[ngccglp]

I will probably end up with a pair after the summer. We normally camp 3-4 times a month during the summer so audio gets put on hold during that time.:)


I am however currently working on getting an MC-402 to pair with the MC-602. I think if this happens I will be set amp wise.

Try the 402 first before you buy, I had the 402 and 500 and noticed the 402 has a very laid back sound and the bass lacks slam compared with the MC500. Sold the 402 and still looking for a second 500.

[Dave_72]

I will probably end up with a pair after the summer. We normally camp 3-4 times a month during the summer so audio gets put on hold during that time.:)


I am however currently working on getting an MC-402 to pair with the MC-602. I think if this happens I will be set amp wise.

Cool, sounds good. Nice amps. Prepare to be blown away. :D

[Dave_72]

Try the 402 first before you buy, I had the 402 and 500 and noticed the 402 has a very laid back sound and the bass lacks slam compared with the MC500. Sold the 402 and still looking for a second 500.

I take it the MC500's an older amp...

What about this bad boy?

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/us/Products/pages/ProductDetails.aspx?CatId=amplifiers&ProductId=MC452

[JuniorJBL]

Try the 402 first before you buy, I had the 402 and 500 and noticed the 402 has a very laid back sound and the bass lacks slam compared with the MC500. Sold the 402 and still looking for a second 500.


It would only be used on the top as I have 600 mac watts per already!!:D

[Dave_72]

It would only be used on the top as I have 600 mac watts per already!!:D

It might roll off the highs though. :D

[JuniorJBL]

It might roll off the highs though. :D


So like 37-38K instead of 40?:rotfl:

[Dave_72]

So like 37-38K instead of 40?:rotfl:

Perhaps. I was thinking down to 20Khz. Still respectable. :D

[Valentin]

the word is out that abailability will be till mid april at least for Mexico :crying:

I had an instalation just right for them but i think the client will not wait till mid april or may

Doese any one now difrent time line


For a piar for me its no problem but for the client there is some time isues

[JuniorJBL]

the word is out that abailability will be till mid april at least for Mexico :crying:

I had an instalation just right for them but i think the client will not wait till mid april or may

Doese any one now difrent time line


For a piar for me its no problem but for the client there is some time isues


I just called JBL. Call your local rep.

[Valentin]

i will try it again again :blink:

[macaroonie]

So , its March now , anyone seen or heard of these bad boys being shipped ?? Any end user feedback yet ?

[4313B]

Um, I'm pretty sure March means March 2014 :rolleyes:

[sebackman]

Hi,

Has anybody seen anything about what DSP settings they are using or potentially a file for the BSS Soundweb units?

It would be intresting to see how much and what type of correction they apply and if they are using IIR or FIR filters in the BSS units.

The curve they posted is almost unreal.

All the best
//RoB

[CONVERGENCE]

Here at NAMM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHuButwsO4M&feature=player_embedded

[Valentin]

Hi,

Has anybody seen anything about what DSP settings they are using or potentially a file for the BSS Soundweb units?

It would be intresting to see how much and what type of correction they apply and if they are using IIR or FIR filters in the BSS units.

The curve they posted is almost unreal.

All the best
//RoB

oh it is real,
I think that the design by it self (drivers, horn, box tunning xo setting) is topnotch and eq filters are the cherry and cream

[ngccglp]

It would only be used on the top as I have 600 mac watts per already!!:D

That's exactly my configuration for biamping my 4350A. 402 on top and 500 bass. Do report back your experience :p

[JuniorJBL]

Right now im playing with a Levinson #29 on the tops of my arrays. It's pretty nice even at 50 watts per.;)

[Dave_72]

Right now im playing with a Levinson #29 on the tops of my arrays. It's pretty nice even at 50 watts per.;)

Some prefer the older Levinson. I used to have the No. 23 amp. I didn't care for it too much. It sounded kinda dead to me. I had to use a lot of EQ to perk it up.

[martin_wu99]

Some prefer the older Levinson. I used to have the No. 23 amp. I didn't care for it too much. It sounded kinda dead to me. I had to use a lot of EQ to perk it up.
It is true that many people think old Levinson and Machitosh are better than new ones.

[Dave_72]

It is true that many people think old Levinson and Machitosh are better than new ones.


Yes of course. I'm not a fan of either, new or old. Between the 2, I'll go for McIntosh.

[Cyclotronguy]

Heard the new M2 last week in Northridge..... pretty amazing soundstage. Side of the room, back of the room, front of the room between the speakers..... the image was solid and the spectral balance pretty much unchanged.

Cyclotronguy

[macaroonie]

Heard the new M2 last week in Northridge..... pretty amazing soundstage. Side of the room, back of the room, front of the room between the speakers..... the image was solid and the spectral balance pretty much unchanged.

Cyclotronguy

Feedback at last. Thanks for delivering the first snippet. Please add more if you care to , the crowd awaits with baited breath.

M

[Mctwins]

Heard the new M2 last week in Northridge..... pretty amazing soundstage. Side of the room, back of the room, front of the room between the speakers..... the image was solid and the spectral balance pretty much unchanged.

Cyclotronguy

Yes, tell us more!

What amps and how was the set-up done.

[Dave_72]

Heard the new M2 last week in Northridge..... pretty amazing soundstage. Side of the room, back of the room, front of the room between the speakers..... the image was solid and the spectral balance pretty much unchanged.

Cyclotronguy

Nice! Yeah, tell us more, please. :D

[caladois]

Come on Cyclotronguy , don't be shy !!!!

[gibber]

Some prefer the older Levinson. I used to have the No. 23 amp. I didn't care for it too much. It sounded kinda dead to me. I had to use a lot of EQ to perk it up.


Well, the 23 was perhaps the worst of them all. Closely followed by 27. Then someone noticed at ML (not ML, he was at Cello then).
JuniorJBL's Model 29 is quite a bit sweeter. Had one myself for years. Model 23 was redone later, too. They called it 23.5 (.5 standing for "half as brash" i presume). Same with 27 ==> 27.5

All of them hold the bass cone as in a vice. Nice if you drive one of the less well-damped 22xx/1xxA's in an active setup. All built to last and pretty cheap now, considering price when new.

Which is even more true of some pro gear, but then who dares to dis-engage that blower ...

[Dave_72]

Well, the 23 was perhaps the worst of them all. Closely followed by 27. Then someone noticed at ML (not ML, he was at Cello then).
JuniorJBL's Model 29 is quite a bit sweeter. Had one myself for years. Model 23 was redone later, too. They called it 23.5 (.5 standing for "half as brash" i presume). Same with 27 ==> 27.5

All of them hold the bass cone as in a vice. Nice if you drive one of the less well-damped 22xx/1xxA's in an active setup. All built to last and pretty cheap now, considering price when new.

Which is even more true of some pro gear, but then who dares to dis-engage that blower ...

Exactly. It was flat and muffled. This was with the matching No. 26 preamp too. Also, the damn thing used to shut off at high volumes. And there never seemed to be enough power. I fried a few tweeters with that amp. The Bryston 4BSST I use is miles ahead of it. Of course that's a newer amp, so not really a fair comparison, but still. Yeah, the build of the Levinson was good, I'll give it that. My brother now has the Levinson gear, and he's happy with it, but he EQs it quite a bit to get any grease outta it.

[gibber]

Exactly. It was flat and muffled ...

My brother now has the Levinson gear, and he's happy with it, but he EQs it quite a bit to get any grease outta it.


Sometimes this happens because "distortion" spectra just don't match. And with distortion, i don't just mean that of the harmonic type. Diaphragm materials all have different sonic signatures and the amp used can -to some extent- compensate. With the speaker discussed in this thread i fear lots of issues coming up in exactly that area. The bass is a fine unit that has proven it's moniker just one digit up from 2215 is well justified.
The treble unit is of a design that likely will see it's biggest advantage in high-SPL applications, i.e. not at home and maybe not even in the studio: the D2 design targets k2 (one of the few "musical" colorations) head on, leaving "non-musical" aberration exposed, even if those aberrations technically might well be at record-setting low (absolute) level, which i believe they will. The advantages in reduced k2 may well not outweigh this in a home context, but almost certainly will in touring or stationary PA use.

We've had something similar before:
Try to match a 2435HPL into a home setup - a highly competent driver, but unexpected problems in matching to the other speakers working on it's side and to the amps driving the side.
Do the same with an aquaplassed Be dome -- still a task but much easier, as the discrete "Be quirks" are spread out and hence ameliorated by the AP coating.
Will be interesting to see how D2 is seen in a year from now for studio use, as discussed here rgd M2.

Apropos 2435: i saw that half-inch thick "spacer" on D2 again, same as before on 2432's exit. Wonder what it might do for 2431/2435?

Ralph

[4313B]

Apropos 2435: i saw that half-inch thick "spacer" on D2 again, same as before on 2432's exit. Wonder what it might do for 2431/2435?Fix them?



I checked on the waveguides again today. Not even in the system yet. Mark says "Never say never." though.

I also checked on the 2216Nd again after JBL gifted me a pair earlier this week. Could I actually order a pair to play with? Could anyone? Not even in the system yet, not from Pro, not from Luxury, not from Lifestyle. Not even as a service part for an S4700. I passed them on to RobH3606 via 1audiohack, so both might post their experiences with these drivers at some point. From everything I am hearing, they have to kick ass below some SAM1HF's. Yeah, I know, SAM1HF's are old news and low rent now. But at least they are available.

D2 is available as a service part only. No idea if it will ever switch over to Finished Goods. Even as a service part it is more expensive than anything else JBL has except a 476Be, much closer to all the other compression drivers compared to the 476Be.

[gibber]

Fix them?




Here's some results with a "spacer" cut from 38mm (1.5") particle board (my new kitchen top surface).
The spacer used here is 3x as thick as the one found on D2 and 2432H, the hole is 1.4" dia, chosen as it is median between the 1.3" HR9040A throat dia and the 1.5" driver exit.

First pic shows an overlay of the same 2435HPL driver (aquaplassed fram) with and witout that piece of wood fitted. The inside of this "spacer" is not super-smooth, but i tried my best ...

58534


Next we have ARTA shots that are a bit too complex to overlay, hence two seperate ones :

58535

58536


And here's the rather crude-looking test-object:

58537


Mixed bag of results, but it seems the spacing clears some midrange nasties .7 thru 2 kHz. The spikes around 1.7 kHz are 5dB down.
The top end suffers but might well look better if the spacer had been shorter and/or more smooth inside.

Ralph

[4313B]

Well, at least it's a nice sounding driver. I guess the trick is to not measure it. ;)

Very early response curves of that driver from <snip> looked great. At this point I suspect they'd been "fixed". :rolleyes:

I won't think about it because I'll just get aggitated.

[gibber]

Well, at least it's a nice sounding driver. I guess the trick is to not measure it. ;)

Very early response curves of that driver from <snip> looked great. At this point I suspect they'd been "fixed".




Before putting on Aquaplas the graph looked more spiky ...
Regarding "fixing" - maybe with highspeed materials such as Be or Boron it's quite a difference to measure in 1/24th oct res :D
The pic also amplifies amplitude variation to the eye as it covers two decades only instead of the usual three, i.e. from 200 Hz instead of 20 Hz up.

The dip at 680Hz (if not a peculiarity of this horn/driver combination) wouldn't matter in target applications; this driver is not intended for use below 800 Hz.
Previous posts accordingly had 2435HPL in smaller horns/waveguides where this dip may be less or not at all visible.

58539

As to sample variation, above's my second driver (also aquaplassed) mounted to same horn w/o the wooden spacer

Ralph

[martin_wu99]

Heard the new M2 last week in Northridge..... pretty amazing soundstage. Side of the room, back of the room, front of the room between the speakers..... the image was solid and the spectral balance pretty much unchanged.

Cyclotronguy
So lucky you are,pls tell us more about M2,is it hard to drive?what's gear?

[Valentin]

Lets see if if there is any news at NAB show

JBLPRO has a stand probaly nothing new to say

[sunnysal]

Exciting news from JBL, both the horn and the drivers are real innovations. I am looking forward to hearing more about people´s reactions to the sound once they hit the marketplace. Great thread! warm regards from sunny El Salvador, Tony

[Dave_72]

Exciting news from JBL, both the horn and the drivers are real innovations. I am looking forward to hearing more about people´s reactions to the sound once they hit the marketplace. Great thread! warm regards from sunny El Salvador, Tony

I do too.

[herve M]

New info from manual users :
"
The M2 contains no internal crossover network;
it must be used with BSS OMNIDRIVE HD Digital Signature processing to provide proper integration of the speaker’s low-frequency and high-frequency transducers. The following Crown power amplifiers incorporate BSS OMNIDRIVE HD DSP and are specified for use in the M2 System::"

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=2003&doctype=3

[martin_wu99]

New info from manual users :
"
The M2 contains no internal crossover network;
it must be used with BSS OMNIDRIVE HD Digital Signature processing to provide proper integration of the speaker’s low-frequency and high-frequency transducers. The following Crown power amplifiers incorporate BSS OMNIDRIVE HD DSP and are specified for use in the M2 System::"

http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/support/getfile.aspx?docid=2003&doctype=3
According to what you said,M2 is a pro gear and hard to use in home:confused:

[Mctwins]

Yeah...real speakers don't need any stinking x-overs:D

As I suspected:)

Nice!

[Mctwins]

According to what you said,M2 is a pro gear and hard to use in home:confused:

Absolutely not hard at all to use at home. I myself use PRX635 and 618S-XLF and my twinbrother(Bobecca) use Cinema Screen Arrays, works perfectly:applaud:

[4313B]

According to what you said,M2 is a pro gear and hard to use in home:confused:Good grief.

[martin_wu99]

Good grief.

Pls speaking some technical things,JBL expert:blink:

[martin_wu99]

Absolutely not hard at all to use at home. I myself use PRX635 and 618S-XLF and my twinbrother(Bobecca) use Cinema Screen Arrays, works perfectly:applaud:
Not everyone like you,they just want home-friendly use:D

[1audiohack]

Not everyone like you,they just want home-friendly use:D


That's why there is Harman Pro, and Harman everything else.

[wsilva]

Not everyone like you,they just want home-friendly use:D


Not making any friends here with some of your statements.

[martin_wu99]

Not making any friends here with some of your statements.
I am very sorry about my poor English,i just mean that he has ablity to use pro gear:o:

[Lee in Montreal]

Not having an internal passive crossover is not for the majority of "idiophiles" but a lot of us prefer it this way. Not getting caught with a specific sound, but having the ability to tailor it to your own taste and environement. This DIY is what maks JBL Pro equipment shine. Buying it is only the beginning of a long experimentation journey. I wish more speaker systems came with their own DSP.

[ivica]

Not having an internal passive crossover is not for the majority of "idiophiles" but a lot of us prefer it this way. Not getting caught with a specific sound, but having the ability to tailor it to your own taste and environement. This DIY is what maks JBL Pro equipment shine. Buying it is only the beginning of a long experimentation journey. I wish more speaker systems came with their own DSP.



Hi,



Talking about the internal passive network and active one, there are some think that to be aware of. If our sound source is , say, CD-player with 1V output voltage corresponding to the maximal signal value, and if such signal has corresponded to the 15-bits ( about 32000) value, and for easy calculation such signal produce 120dB-SPL, then with the passive and active networks we can get almost the same results.

But the problems can be more complex if we have decided to put digital network AFTER pre-amp, and if we decide to reduce the level ( by potentiometer) to 96dB-SPL ( -24dB), then we would reduce the amplitude 16-TIMES, so we would operate with equivalent 11-bits amplitude to the rest of the system. so signal-to-noise level would be reduced by mentioned 24dB using digital network. With proper passive one (or even low noise analog realized types), such reduction into the signal-noise ratio would not happen.

But some time proper passive network would be very difficult to realize especially in order to compensate 'spiky' driver-horn response, as it seems to me is the case with M2 HF horn-driver combo ( deep notches about: 9kHz, 12kHz, 16kHz).

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33972-JBL-Master-Reference-Monitor&p=343108&viewfull=1#post343108


It would be nice if some "independent" measurements can be shown of M2 HF horn-driver response WITHOUT DSP compensation.



Regards

Ivica

[4313B]

I wish more speaker systems came with their own DSP.:thmbsup: :applaud:

[hlaari]

I am interested to know how they can get the 2216Nd down to 20Hz
I read in the tech info at the 2216Nd have fs around 36 - 39Hz

there have to be much of eque in the lowest frequency

[dr_gallup]

I am interested to know how they can get the 2216Nd down to 20Hz
I read in the tech info at the 2216Nd have fs around 36 - 39Hz

there have to be much of eque in the lowest frequency

The response curves look to be about 10 dB down at 20 Hz.

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/m2/Tech.html#.UX2OMcoXEjk

[Valentin]

Room gain will easily give you the gain @ 20 to 40hz

The measurements are anechoic so the boundary effect will be more than generous if you use the eq it will probably be to reduce in most rooms

if you see the specs of the similar s4700 the m2 has lost 2dB in sensitivity i would supect it has to do in geting this extra low extension (flat too 40hz) and a -10dB @ 20hz

If you whant for movie post production you would be using subs

[Bobecca]

Thats why my fingers start to itch every time I read that text:applaud:
Oboy, this descisions one have to make all the time.

What is the power requirement needed to feed that horn. Can it be 1250 Watts in 8 ohms:confused:

I know that there is a possibility to set a limit of power in RMS in Crowns. Interesting to see the DSP settings.

So, according to the manual, there is no x-over in the M2! I was right all a long:D

[maxserg]

Anyone have a review of the JBL Master Reference recently?

[4313B]

.

[4313B]

..

[Robh3606]

Interesting:D

Thanks for the peek behind the magic curtain.

Rob:)

[Valentin]

:banana: thanks

[macaroonie]

Very interesting 4313b.

For anyone interested in having a tinker with this kind of dsp correction you can download FREE XTA software

Audiocore V8.81 here http://www.audiocore.co.uk/software-audiocore_info_download.html

It is a similar platform and will let you do all that stuff in a very visual manner.

Not sure whether the Crown software is free to use.

I had a rummage around the web recently re M2 , practically nothing to report , odd.

[4313B]

Not sure whether the Crown software is free to use.It is. And it is available via the downloads library to the right on the M2 webpage.

http://www.jblpro.com/products/recording&broadcast/M2/index.html

One can load the M2 file into the System Architect Software and check out all the values. They can be re-created via other solutions if desired. One doesn't have to spend an additional twelve grand on Harman amps if they already have a decent backend.

4338/4365, K2 or E2 components with this kind of technology can get real fun, real fast.
I am interested to know how they can get the 2216Nd down to 20Hz
I read in the tech info at the 2216Nd have fs around 36 - 39Hz

there have to be much of eque in the lowest frequencyFs ~ 36 Hz.

From inspection, it appears they are using a quasi-sixth order bottom end, 4.7 dB boost at 21.5 Hz with a Q of 1.77. The box should be tuned right around that frequency.

It follows Keele's research into taking a quasi-third order or fourth order box (air load) and reducing the tuning frequency by 1.4 and applying the boost. In this instance, the box would normally be tuned to around 30 Hz without boost. For reference, the S4700 is tuned to 32 Hz (I didn't realize the S4700 box was a whopping 4.8 cu ft). 42.375 x 18.75 x 14.625 compared to 49.5 x 20 x 14 for the M2.

[maxserg]

Thanks 4313B for those interesting informations! You rock!:rockon1:

[pos]

So they are using a 6dB/oct electrical HP filter on the compression driver, like in the S9800 !
Does the M2 include a protection cap on the compression driver?

[macaroonie]

It seems as if Sweetwater have these in stock for immediate delivery !!!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System/

Can one of our field agents nip down and report back please.


59034

[cooky1257]

4338/4365, K2 or E2 components with this kind of technology can get real fun, real fast..

True dat.:) XTA Processors sound very sweet too.

[macaroonie]

True dat.:) XTA Processors sound very sweet too.

How do you know that Cooky , as a matter of interest ?

[cooky1257]

How do you know that Cooky , as a matter of interest ?

Mac, I've been using an XTA 226 LMS with my various clones for quite a few years now.
Other than Dolby/Lake (now just Lake) they are pretty much best sounding of the pro speaker management systems that I've come across.
Their reputation does go before them though I don't doubt LMS DSP units have come a long way in terms of sonics and some relatively inexpensive makes are actually quite good.

Cooky

[4313B]

I've viewed them primarily as quick prototyping tools up until now, nothing to actually leave hooked up to a high performance loudspeaker system used in a home.

From what I am hearing, the Crowns with their DSP sound really good.

[macaroonie]

Mac, I've been using an XTA 226 LMS with my various clones for quite a few years now.
Other than Dolby/Lake (now just Lake) they are pretty much best sounding of the pro speaker management systems that I've come across.
Their reputation does go before them though I don't doubt LMS DSP units have come a long way in terms of sonics and some relatively inexpensive makes are actually quite good.

Cooky

Ahhh , I see. Thanks for that. The Audiocore user interface is a breeze to use , nice.

[Valentin]

. From what I am hearing, the Crowns with their DSP sound really good.

saving for a pair amps et all, will have to make a quiet rack for the fans,

[Mctwins]

I've viewed them primarily as quick prototyping tools up until now, nothing to actually leave hooked up to a high performance loudspeaker system used in a home.

From what I am hearing, the Crowns with their DSP sound really good.
They sound really good!
http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/calle_jr/2011-09-04/DSC_3484.JPG

[Mr. Widget]

They sound really good!
http://www.euphonia-audioforum.se/calle_jr/2011-09-04/DSC_3484.JPGGreat! But would you trust the opinion of someone still using MC-275s? :duck:

;)


Widget

[Mctwins]

Great! But would you trust the opinion of someone still using MC-275s? :duck:

;)


Widget

Trust me, the sound is great with MC275 in monos with the screen arrays and with the MC252 as well. Clean and pure sound.:applaud:

[Dave_72]

It seems as if Sweetwater have these in stock for immediate delivery !!!

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System/

Can one of our field agents nip down and report back please.


59034

Nice!