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Figge
10-05-2004, 05:20 PM
i just got hold of a RANE RA 27 RTA with mic. and need a good eq to get this going. any suggestions? not too expensive max $200, and since the rest of my stereo has turned rack-mount i might aswell get a maching eq.

Zilch
10-05-2004, 05:40 PM
We gotta stop Figge from "getting hold of" stuff.

[He's gonna get DAZED and CONFUSED like the rest here soon.]

Answer: What Widget's got. I forget....

:rockon1: :bouncy:

Figge
10-05-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Zilch
We gotta stop Figge from "getting hold of" stuff.

yeah! good luck:) iŽm too far gone...no turninŽback now

Mr. Widget
10-06-2004, 01:00 AM
Get a pair of White 4400s if you can find them. They may cost a bit more than you want to spend, but they are the best I have heard. I did manage to get an excellent pair on eBay for $250, but they are usually a bit more.

I would strongly suggest you avoid the Rane graphics. They have that "Rane Sound".

Widget

Figge
10-06-2004, 02:32 AM
tnx for the info! iŽll keep an eye out for those white:s..

as for rane i had my eyes on a pair of mono eq:s but im guessing i dont want that "rane sound"(they were pretty expensive btw) well he can keepem!


stereo eq more convenient, 2 mono better results/performance?...i got it right?


lets put the question this way instead: what brands should i stay away from.

Ken Pachkowsky
10-06-2004, 06:55 AM
I agree with Widget on the White 4400's and use a pair myself. Klark Teknik graphics are very good as well.

PS: I would increase your budget somewhat. If you can't I would go the Rane route G series if you can find one with the 45mm faders. For the first time I find myself on opposite sides from Widget. I think Rane makes a good eq. Here is a good deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23788&item=3750384316&rd=1

Ken

Ken Pachkowsky
10-06-2004, 06:58 AM
By the way. I tink you could spend the next year bidding on a pair of 4400's and not get them for less than 400 to 500 bucks. Widget was very lucky to get those at that price. I have seen them go to 800 a pair just in the last 12 months.

Ken

Figge
10-06-2004, 07:09 AM
ok. the ones i had my eyes on were 2 pieces of RANE ME-30 for $200. looks like this.

http://www.proaudiosystems.co.uk/acatalog/rane-me-30b.jpg

Robh3606
10-06-2004, 08:14 AM
I use Urei 539's and I have no complaints. Just watch the older ones with the plastic shafts on the pots. They stick and can break. The newer ones have metal shafts.

Rob:)

scott fitlin
10-06-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
Get a pair of White 4400s if you can find them. They may cost a bit more than you want to spend, but they are the best I have heard. I did manage to get an excellent pair on eBay for $250, but they are usually a bit more.

I would strongly suggest you avoid the Rane graphics. They have that "Rane Sound".

Widget I agree 110%, the White 4400,s are the way to go!

They come up on Ebay every now and then, and you can usuually score em for a good price!

L-C tuned filters blow Constant Q,s out of the water!

scott fitlin
10-06-2004, 12:13 PM
1. White 4200A,s Cut only, 1/3 octave, 10db make up gain, LC tuned filters. HP/LP filters.

2.White 4400,s cut/boost 1/3 octave LC tuned filters. HP/LP filters.

3. urei 539,s cut only, 1/3 octave 20db make up gain, LC tuned filters. HP/LP filters.

4. Altec Acousta-Voicette 729A cut only, 1/3 octave LC tuned filters, 20db make up gain, no HP/LP filter. Consumer version of Altec pro mono EQ,s RCA in,s and outs! Nice sounding stereo EQ.

5. BSS-FCS-966 Opal stereo cut/boost 1/3 octave Constant Q filters with shelving feature and HP filter.


Klark-Teknic I dont care for, the newer ones from 93 up use thick film circuitry to emulate the sound of inductors, but, didnt do it for me! Thin sounding, as compared to White!

Rane,well, need I say anything at all?

If you decide to use a cut only, you might need an RTA to get your curve proper! Kind of hard to tune a cut only by ear alone, but done correctly yeilds the best resolution!

Rob makes a valid point about the urei 539,s, and it applies to all the urei EQ,s! If you see the urei EQ,s on Ebay, and they have the white plastic faders they are the ones you DONT want! They get crudified, stuck in place, you cant clean em and restore em, and there are NO replacement faders available, that I know of. The newer ones have black metal faders, and these last indefinitely!

Let me know what your interested in though, I have many EQ,s most of which I dont need! I have BSS, K-T, Urei, and Altec. My Whites Im keeping, they been with me since I bought em way long ago!

louped garouv
10-06-2004, 01:53 PM
4400s are the way to go -- got both of mine on ebay for about $200 each within the last 6 months......

set that ebay search agent......

:smthsail:

Figge
10-07-2004, 12:55 PM
not exactly crawling with whites on the used market here in sweden... gotta go with a alternative. somebody is selling 2 steven eq-31 in my pricerange. also DOD 231 QX and AB international model 231 are those on the "stay away from" list?

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Figge
not exactly crawling with whites on the used market here in sweden... gotta go with a alternative. somebody is selling 2 steven eq-31 in my pricerange. is that on the "stay away from" list? These i am not familiar with! So I dont know.

For White you have to check Ebay every week, and every day! When 4400,s come up they will be bid on!

Figge
10-07-2004, 02:11 PM
how about DBX 231?

Ken Pachkowsky
10-07-2004, 02:52 PM
Whites are def the way to go.

Ranes may not be the best for sure, but they sure beat the hell out of alot of other brands out there. Once again I used an ME60 for a year and was satisfied till I got the 4400's. I have never used or tried Klark Teknik but they sure are popular with the large touring companies. End of story.

Have a good one.

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 03:06 PM
Yeah, they are industry standard. But I own a pair, and I dont like them. Bought em brand new, too!

You want to know something Ken? The engineer that recommended the K-T to me also said something very similar to what you just said! he told me get rid of your Whites, you didnt say this but its the next thing! I went and bought em, got em back here, made cables, installed them, listened, adjusted, re listened, adjusted more! After 3 days i started to switch back and forth with the White 4200A,s and not only myself, but everyone said it sounded MUCH better with the Whites!

After TWO weeks of futzing around with the K-T,s I called Steve, I told him I didnt like them, the clip light lit way too easily, thin sound, etc, etc. Then I asked him WHERE hes using them that he got em sounding right! he told me "Oh, I never used them, but they are industry standard, and everyone says good things about them "! All the major companies use them! FEH!

They MAY be popular with whoever, but to me, they still dont sound like I like!

Incidentally, one thing to know about K-T if you really want to get them, is the older ones, say a DN-360 stereo cut/boost EQ is quite different from the newer EQ,s they make now! Back then, K-T was also L-C tuned filters, now they use thick film circuitry called " MELT " filters! Completely different sound!

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 03:25 PM
I aplogize if I seemed a bit brash in my last post! But I do take exception to someone recommending a brand or type of component if they havent actually used, heard, or owned it!

This happened to me! I took someones recommendation, and K-T is expensive, only to find out I already had the best!

Imagine how I felt when this engineer told me he hadnt actually ever used K-T, but he recommended it because it was industry standard! Nonetheless, it was still $1400 I had already spent!

I, personally, only recommend things I have actually used, and like, or own!

It happened to me!

louped garouv
10-07-2004, 03:31 PM
i think we all regard those values to be a good thing, and if everyone had actually used and liked equipment they recommended -- this world would be a better place ;)

Ken Pachkowsky
10-07-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by scott fitlin
I aplogize if I seemed a bit brash in my last post! But I do take exception to someone recommending a brand or type of component if they havent actually used, heard, or owned it!

This happened to me! I took someones recommendation, and K-T is expensive, only to find out I already had the best!

Imagine how I felt when this engineer told me he hadnt actually ever used K-T, but he recommended it because it was industry standard! Nonetheless, it was still $1400 I had already spent!

I, personally, only recommend things I have actually used, and like, or own!

It happened to me!

Scott

No worries, I see your point re the KT's. If I wanted KT's I would have them. I love my 4400's. I was just trying to give the guy some options from good, better, best.

Just goes to show we all have strong opinions at times. You did not offend me, but rather pointed out a truth. If you have not tried it yourself, don't promote it.

Just refinishing my HR-1 cabs. Have my new bases all textured and painted. Will be posting some pics soon. Discovered my Westlakes don't have 2446's but 2441's with aluminum phragms. Was also shocked at how much lighter a 2235H is compared to the old alnico 15's.

Ken

Mr. Widget
10-07-2004, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Ken Pachkowsky

Discovered my Westlakes don't have 2446's but 2441's with aluminum phragms.

No wonder you like those Westlakes so much. The 2441 on that horn is quite good!

Widget

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
No wonder you like those Westlakes so much. The 2441 on that horn is quite good!

Widget I second this! 2441 = :D

Earl K
10-07-2004, 07:23 PM
Hi

This is the EQ ( DN27 ) upon which KT built a good portion of its' reputation. They then built on that sonic reputation with the release of the dual channel DN30/30 and the more refined DN360 . To the best of my recollection "tuned LC circuitry" was retired with the release of the Dual 30 band "30/30" . In fact the passive insides of the DN27 might not have made it into the DN27a model.


Scott, unfortunately for you, you bought KT(s) after they had all the market penetration they wanted ( for pricey EQs ) and were by then looking for ways to broaden their market ( ie. cheapen their product ) .

A Fast Tour:
- Potted Inductors
- Silver-Mica &/or Polystyrene Caps
-"Trimmable" circuit mount pots for each LC leg
- Check Out the size of that output transformer / the smaller MuMetal shielded input transformer is below ( round can ) - by Sowter Transformers .

<> Earl K

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 08:02 PM
yes im aware of this! In fact the DN-360,s from the 80,s are also Tuned L-C filters!

I bought my mono DN-300,s, which are the same as the 360 but seperate chassis for each channel in `95. By this time the K-T EQ,s were MELT filters using thick film circuitry to emulate the sound of an inductor. I knew pretty much right away I had made a bad buy!

When I speak negatively about K-T Im referring to the units you can get now! I have worked on systems that had K-T with the old style circuitry and they sound good, but I still prefer the White!

This was one of the BIG moments where I learned to use my own ears, and not be bothered with what " industry " considers the standard!

Then I had them up for sale, and i couldnt believe how little people wanted to spend for them! I got many calls, everyone was willing to give me $700.00 for the pair, and they werent even a year old! I wasnt in extreme need, so I said F%*k it, and put em in my storage, and they sit there in the rack collecting dust! One sound contractor really wanted them but was only willing to give me 600 tops for the pair, he used logic like your not using them and you dont like em, so sell em to me! The money didnt matter, so I let them sit.

Earl, fortunately for me, I held on to all my White EQ,s, my favorite pair being the 4200A,s my dad purchased for me in 1983! They sound great, and I mean great, they are built like tanks, and hold up extremely well. I had them serviced last year, and after 20yrs of service, all they found wrong was a leaky capacitor on one of the 400hz filters, and the pots needed cleaning! They arent scratchy either! I still have and use these, and they sing!

I will take your word that your K-T,s sound good, I see alll those inductors on your board! However, without those windings, the K-T,s aint got it!

BTW, just to let you know, I also really like the sound of the old Altec EQ,s! The 9860A,s and the consumer 729A!

:cool:

Earl K
10-07-2004, 08:38 PM
Hi


BTW, just to let you know, I also really like the sound of the old Altec EQ,s! The 9860A,s and the consumer 729A!

I have an Altec 729a - but I haven't listened to it for about 15 years. I do keep meaning to climb up into the top tier of the RediRack and haul it down for a listen. So, as such, I'm in no postion to recommend it as a buy.

Generally, I follow the advice of Don & Carolyn Davis ( SynAudCom ) and buy a 1/3 octave whose filters "combine". These filter types combine amplitudes as well as their phase slopes in such a way that a tech with a TEF system can actually EQ by only watching the phase response readout.

IME, most peoples firmly held opinions for certain EQ's can be traced back to this type of filter. The Altecs / Whites / KT - the ones I know, are all a combining type filter.

I'm not crazy about the inductors in the lowend, but in the midrange and topend they can't be beat - still; I don't use EQ at home .

<. Earl K :)

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 08:56 PM
I agree the top end, and mids of the White 4200A,s is great. Especially the top end, so crystal, so sparkly.

But the low end of the 4200A has that organic, earthy tone, and I was always told it was the L-C filters that do this also. BIG sounding, but not synthetic!

I have besides K-T, I have a BSS-966 Opal, and a pair of Rane GE60,s, both are Constant Q filters, and although the BSS is clean, it doesnt compare to the White, especially in the low end!


I know that the White has always held the No.1 spot in my ears as far as EQ is concerned, and that combining filters are part of why they sound the way they do, but if the inductors arent responsible for the low end, why do the Whites make such authentic sounding bass?

K-T. I just was on their website, and their EQ,s now are Proportional Q filters, a variation of Consant Q design I guess!

I got to hear the digital KT,s a while back, pretty extensively too, and I didnt like these at all! very hollow sounding midrange!

The way I see it is, my Whites held up well for 20 years, and even then, service said there good. They will serve me another 20 years, and hold up well! Figure by then at least, maybe they will get the digital stuff the companies are pimping, to work right?

:D

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 09:09 PM
Have you ever played with any of the Manley EQ,s? Like their copies of the Pultecs?

I have heard the Pultec in a studio, and man can they pump out some low end! Gives the kick drum that really muscular punch!

I listened to the Manley, and I dont know, what do you say?

The best sounding midrange from any EQ I have ever heard came out of this big red face EQ, a tube job, a company from Pennsylvania, called D.W.fearn! Not really an EQ I could use in my place, but man the midrange was to die for, Im telling ya!

scott fitlin
10-07-2004, 09:18 PM
http://www.dwfearn.com/VT4RGB4-16.JPG

This thing sounds incredible, the mids are the best ive ever heard! So is the price!

:D

Earl K
10-08-2004, 05:35 AM
Hi Scott

Cute Red thing . How Much ?

I'll have to hook up a DN27 soon, to see what it does on the bottom end.

I now realize my stated impressions of these DN27 go back 26 years. A lot has changed from those days.
Back then my Crown 300s were considered big amps until replaced with Phase Linear 700(s).


I listened to the Manley, and I dont know, what do you say?

Well, I can't create an informed opinion unless I can use the stuff in a controlled environment ( like here at home ). So far that hasn't happened .


I'll have to verify the following statement out further - but - I don't think "Constant-Q" filters are of the combining class . Sales literature generaly won't state it , so a person needs to get a hands on and then run tones and pink noise through the EQ - all hooked up to an RTA - to find out what gives.

Re; EQ at home;
I prefer to primarily spend some money on changing/fixing the acoustics of the listening environment. I own a lot of portable 2'x4' foam panels ( glued to GatorBoard ). Not Sonex but Auralex .


<. Earl K

Figge
10-08-2004, 08:49 AM
ok i borowed some dod 2x15 at a local musicshop just to see if i really would need a eq. started pinknoise and when i was finished tuning for +/- 1db it looked like this!(see pic). well u could say the room does colour the sound a bit...now it sounds pretty sweet. a presence in the music i never heard before! so i realize i need a good eq. no point in buying some junk. so iŽll find a way to rise the budget!

Robh3606
10-08-2004, 10:49 AM
Hey Fredrik

What are you using speaker wise?? Looking at your EQ settings I am surprised you have as much variation above 500Hz. Figure that should be above where most room problems are you try any room treatment like Sonex panels to help tame it down.


Rob:)

Figge
10-08-2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Robh3606
Hey Fredrik

What are you using speaker wise?? Looking at your EQ settings I am surprised you have as much variation above 500Hz. Figure that should be above where most room problems are you try any room treatment like Sonex panels to help tame it down.


Rob:)

do you mean wire? i use regular lamp-cord:) im supprised about the variation too. channel 1 look quite allright...but 2? however the sound is improved...and the room aint symetrical between the channels...


idunno.

lemmeno what im doin wrong...

Robh3606
10-08-2004, 01:31 PM
No No not the wire:D What speakers?? Not sure you are doing anything wrong just surprised by the variation between channels and where the EQ seems to be needed.

Rob :)

Ken Pachkowsky
10-08-2004, 01:35 PM
The above may be an issue as well. I agree Rob, the settings look suspect. Not only what speakers but what RTA was used and how was it done?

Ken

Figge
10-08-2004, 01:36 PM
ehm...sorry...i pink-noised my sony TA-E86B----->Yamaha P2201---->4430 (with L-pads on 0db). and wound up like this....

scott fitlin
10-08-2004, 01:39 PM
Hi Scott

Cute Red thing . How Much ?

I'll have to hook up a DN27 soon, to see what it does on the bottom end.

I now realize my stated impressions of these DN27 go back 26 years. A lot has changed from those days.
Back then my Crown 300s were considered big amps until replaced with Phase Linear 700(s).


The cute red thing is a single channel 5 band Pultec style EQ, list Price $4400! So you would need two for stereo, OUCH!

But I listened to this one for quite a bit in a studio, against others, and the thing sounds great, especially the midrange. Absolutely beautiful sounding.

It has detented, spaced, boost and cut controls and I would prefer a continuously variable pot on these functions, but Fearn says it wont sound the same with pots.

Really for recording, but man, this thing sounds the best I have ever heard in my life!

Tube and L-C tuned filters!



:)

Figge
10-08-2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Ken Pachkowsky
The above may be an issue as well. I agree Rob, the settings look suspect. Not only what speakers but what RTA was used and how was it done?

Ken


a rane ta27 i think...it says in the openingpost here. i used it at my "studio-buddies" place to tune in the 2235 sub into his 4301B:s with a cross at 60hz. worked DAMN fine...what a result!

now i pinknoised 1 channel at a time. mic at brain positon at the listening spot...

scott fitlin
10-08-2004, 03:38 PM
Hi Scott

Cute Red thing . How Much ?

I'll have to hook up a DN27 soon, to see what it does on the bottom end.

I now realize my stated impressions of these DN27 go back 26 years. A lot has changed from those days.
Back then my Crown 300s were considered big amps until replaced with Phase Linear 700(s). >>>>>>>>>>>

Hi Earl, I kind of thought the same thing, but even todays music is better, to me, through the White 4200A EQ,s! Bigger, more solid, the highs are sparkly, and the mids have jump! The White EQ,s are pretty much the most transparent sounding 1/3 octave I have used!

I have tried pretty much everything there is for pro use, and room EQ, and yet, I always run right back to my Whites!

And one thing Im sure of, that I love about the particular generation of White EQ,s that Im using, is that a little bit does alot! 1 db here, maybe 1.5db there, etc! No smiley face curves in here!

Yet, with the newer Constant Q designs, I need to cut much harder to achieve the same thing!

Many have tried to tell me thats its the inaccuracy opf the Whites that makes it seem like it does so much, but on my analyzer, 1db of cut on the EQ registers as 1db of cut on the RTA screen! This was especially true when I tried digital EQ.

Most of all, with the White EQ,s in my system, it sounds like music to me!

Ken Pachkowsky
10-08-2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by scott fitlin
[/B]
And one thing Im sure of, that I love about the particular generation of White EQ,s that Im using, is that a little bit does alot! 1 db here, maybe 1.5db there, etc! No smiley face curves in here!

Yet, with the newer Constant Q designs, I need to cut much harder to achieve the same thing!

Most of all, with the White EQ,s in my system, it sounds like music to me! [/B]

Funny you should mention that. One thing I noticed going from my Rane ME60 to the 4400's was the settings are very minor. The max cut or boost I am using is 6db. On the Rane they go as high as 12-15db.

Hmmm, more amunition for Scotts argument...

Ken

scott fitlin
10-08-2004, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Ken Pachkowsky
Funny you should mention that. One thing I noticed going from my Rane ME60 to the 4400's was the settings are very minor. The max cut or boost I am using is 6db. On the Rane they go as high as 12-15db.

Hmmm, more amunition for Scotts argument...

Ken You notice what I notice! The White just seems to do it, and it doesnt take much. Everything else I have to use more to get the same result! Never quite understood why this would be, but it does seem this way!

I had the BSS Varicurve in here on trial, you cut 6db it didnt sound nearly as effective as 2db of cut on the White! Same experience with the BSS-FDS-388 vs my Urei - 525!

My Whites are just plain BEEFY sounding, I love them! Does anyone have a logical explanation for any of this?



:confused:

Robh3606
10-08-2004, 09:19 PM
Hmm

Worst case cut on my Urei's is a 6db cut. Don't seem to really need more than that. Maybe the constant Q's are set to high so the finer adjustments are not as effective as a lower Q where a wider band is adjusted?? Could be they have them optimized for somewhere in the middle of their range.

Rob :)

scott fitlin
10-08-2004, 09:35 PM
Only 2.3db at 2.5K. That tames the peak in the 2395/2441.