Project Array 1400 Audition

[jblnut]

Thanks to the efforts of David at Audio Video Experience in Hampton Falls, NH, I was finally able to hear a pair of new JBLs without hitching a plane ride to the West Coast. The conversation started this summer when I learned that they were the only JBL dealer anywhere near me, and over the course of the last few months, he was able to track down the "demo pair" from Harman and get them setup for me to hear. My hat is off to him for making this happen !

The equipment was as follows:

McIntosh MCD301 SACD/CD player, C50 preamp, 275 tube amp
Project 5.1 TT with Goldring MM cart

The room was a very nicely finished HT demo space about 14x18. It had accoustically treated walls and ceiling and two rows of "stadium" seats. It made for a very comfortable place to spend a few hours with the 1400's.


I listened primarily to digital because the TT setup frankly didn't sound all that great and was not really up to the level of what I'm used to. It was too bright with too little bass and didn't really show the 1400's in the best light. Once the CD's got spinning though, it was pretty clear I was hearing something special.

Having spent the last 10 years with a pair of 250Ti's, I'm used to great bass - but these were clearly superior. I give quite a bit of that credit to the room, but it's clear the 1400 goes *way* down and does so with great control and poise. What it gives up (slightly) to the 250 though is "punch" in the upper regions of the bass where a lot of drum sound is. Was it the missing 108h I wasn't hearing ? Was it the tube MC275 not getting enough control on the Le14H-3 ? Hard to say for sure here.

As I listened further I became really mesmerized by the great presentation of the mids - especially vocals. From Diana Krall to Bruce Cockburn, I was just amazed by the presentation and coherency of their voices. The imaging was really nice and gave a real sense of that "in the room" sound. i then moved onto some jazz as I wanted to hear how well they could reproduce the sax. I was not disappinted here as Michael Brecker's(RIP) tenor ripped into the room with all the energy and presence of a live show.

Moving onto blues, Clapton and Robben Ford took the stage and really showed off their guitars. Here again, I could close my eyes and picture myself in a small club with the bands right in front of me. I felt I was really getting into the comfort zone of the 1400 here.

Finally it was time for some rock, so out came some of my prized MFSL gold discs like Synchronicity, Moving pictures and Breakfast in America.
It was just stunning every time. "Tea in the Sahara" is a difficult track as Sting's vocals can fade too far into the background with many systems (250ti included), but he was not overshadowded here. All the density and complexity Supertramp's signature album was presented clearly and frankly was about the best I've ever heard it. And who can resist a good chance to play air drums along with Mr. Peart on "Tom Sawyer" - certainly not me :-).

I wrapped up with my new favorite "rock the house" track - Zeppelin's "No Quarter" covered by Maktub, It's a masterpiece and I just sat there slackjawed.

In conclusion and comparison to my 250's, these are clearly a new generation. All the things you'd expect of a horn-based design like dynamics are here in spades. And with the latest LE14 holding down the bass duties, the low end is a solid as ever. I was occasionally aware of some "horn sound", but it was no Klipsch in this regard. It was subtle and only got my attention a few times. I felt the tweeter didn't quite have as many paints in its sonic palette as the 044Ti, but that could be electronics and room (or both) playing into this too.

Overall it was a very enjoyable afternoon. I look forward to these coming onto the used market in the coming years.

jblnut

[SEAWOLF97]

thanx for the writeup ...your opinion on speakers does carry some weight around here.


from reading it , I get that the 1400 is better than 250's in many ways, but in some others the 250 has an advantage ....concluding that the array is superior ( should be considering the cost and advancements over the years ....I'd be surprised if they weren't better.)

so being a person without an unlimited budget , I have to ask ...

" which is the better value for benefit received" ?? ie: BANG FOR THE BUCK

a really nice set of 250's is generally less than $2k ...my guess is that the 1400's are at least $5-6k (just a guess) ...are they 3x as good or incrementally better ? when you do jump for the arrays, what other components are going to need upgrading to keep up ?

[BMWCCA]

There's a new-in-box (although scratched) pair on eBay right now for $7800/obo. I believe the used pair I passed up three-years ago were something under $4000. I think the 4345s worked out better for me since I'd not be able to put my Christmas decorations or TV on the 1400s.
;)
I might still own a pair of 1400s some day. I'd like to be able to compare them all, if I live that long. I can envision 20-years from now we'll be holding a Mid-Atlantic Shootout pitting the 1400 Array against the DD6600

[jblnut]

These are $12k/pair new, and that's the main reason I'm going to have to wait for them to age a bit. Clearly the 250Ti holds the bang/buck title, but it's important to realize that they will never be able to do some of the things that the 1400 can do. There's a coherency and immediacy to the sound that the 250 will just never have because it is not using a state of the art horn driver.

As happens many times though (when I hear other systems), I was glad to be home afterwards in my own listening room. There's a reason the 250's are still here...they just do so many things right.

jblnut



thanx for the writeup ...your opinion on speakers does carry some weight around here.


from reading it , I get that the 1400 is better than 250's in many ways, but in some others the 250 has an advantage ....concluding that the array is superior ( should be considering the cost and advancements over the years ....I'd be surprised if they weren't better.)

so being a person without an unlimited budget , I have to ask ...

" which is the better value for benefit received" ?? ie: BANG FOR THE BUCK

a really nice set of 250's is generally less than $2k ...my guess is that the 1400's are at least $5-6k (just a guess) ...are they 3x as good or incrementally better ? when you do jump for the arrays, what other components are going to need upgrading to keep up ?

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for the thorough review. Based on my experience I think you have summed it up well. I do think you may have heard slightly better bass had the 1400s been coupled to a different amp, but I can't say that with certainty.

Waiting 10-20 years for the 1400s or DD66000s to be available at reduced prices is certainly a viable alternative for some, but I fear my hearing might not last that long... fingers crossed I'll be listening and enjoying music for decades more, but for so many of us as we age our ability to fully enjoy this hobby does diminish with time.

For the DIYers out there, there is the SAMHF/LE14H-3 option that a small number have pursued for the 1400 Arrays. It certainly saves a bundle, but not everyone has the time or inclination.


Widget

[jblnut]

Sage advice as always Widget :)

My own hearing is just starting to lose that ultra-high end sparkle in my left ear, so I know exactly what you are saying. Still, it doesn't dampen my enthusiasm any, and it may finally put some of my audiophile aspirations and dalliances to bed. Which helps keep money in he bank and the wife happy.

I asked them to use a MC275 as I own one myself - it helps to reduce variables when comparing gear. The bass was acutally spectacular with this setup and it was way more powerful than I expected of a 75w tube amp. What was missing (to me) was the upper bass/lower mid. I find this missing on many speakers and I think it's probably because I have gotten so used to the sound of JBL 4-ways. Nothing else covers that octave quite the same.

I've heard a lot of newer speakers lately (Spendor and Sonus Faber to name two) and it's clear there are some *really* nice sounding units on the market. I am glad that JBL can still hang in the race, and actually set the pace for certain things.

jblnut

[BMWCCA]

There's a coherency and immediacy to the sound that the 250 will just never have because it is not using a state of the art horn driver.

Or any horn at all, for that matter?

[Mr. Widget]

Or any horn at all, for that matter?
Not sure what others think, but I certainly wouldn't say that all horn systems are particularly coherent... they are frequently dynamic, exciting, etc... I would say few horn systems are particularly coherent.



Widget

[BMWCCA]

Not sure what others think, but I certainly wouldn't say that all horn systems are particularly coherent... they are frequently dynamic, exciting, etc... I would say few horn systems are particularly coherent.

Granted though, in this company, I suppose I was implying compared to some our "iconic" horn systems members have here. I can grock that the latest are/should be the greatest and that's why I'd love to someday be able to make just that comparison in my own home!

Happy New Year to all . . . and to all a good horn!

[4313B]

What was missing (to me) was the upper bass/lower mid. I find this missing on many speakers and I think it's probably because I have gotten so used to the sound of JBL 4-ways. Nothing else covers that octave quite the same.Consider the placement of the LE14H in relation to the floor and your ears. Couple that with the fact that the LE14H doesn't have the hallmark JBL sound (rising response, forward presence). It's a pretty flat transducer. It really doesn't stand a chance against something like a 108H through the midrange. It is an old school, sixties era, rock solid low frequency transducer with a very stiff, heavy cone designed to move air with minimal flexing, basically a cone shaped piece of concrete. ;)

As for the bottom end, while the 1400 Array doesn't have the extension of the 250Ti, it does have the lowest extension of any JBL system over the past ten or twelve years.


Quick and Dirty tip:
Run your 250Ti's through a band saw between the 108H and 104H, cover the resulting hole in the top with a piece of plywood and sit a SAM1HF on top.

[BMWCCA]

Quick and Dirty tip:
Run your 250Ti's through a band saw between the 108H and 104H, cover the resulting hole in the top with a piece of plywood and sit a SAM1HF on top.

I'd love a PhotoShop depiction of this versus an actual version as a Woody re-boxing! ;)

[JBLAddict]

What was missing (to me) was the upper bass/lower mid. I find this missing on many speakers and I think it's probably because I have gotten so used to the sound of JBL 4-ways. Nothing else covers that octave quite the same.

jblnut

this is/was the one blatantly clear difference when I moved from L7 to PT800/PS1400, though both are 4 way? There's an upper bass component on the L7 that is just absent on the PS. Since I never did any measurements, I just assumed the I was hearing the PS's documented flat response vs. the L7s known difficulties with placement and balance, though my L7s were placed in near perfect position. There are still rock pieces where that range dominates and the difference is glaring and I just don't "feel it" like I did

[pathfindermwd]

Quick and Dirty tip:
Run your 250Ti's through a band saw between the 108H and 104H, cover the resulting hole in the top with a piece of plywood and sit a SAM1HF on top.

LOL!!!!!:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[jblnut]

Quick and Dirty tip:
Run your 250Ti's through a band saw between the 108H and 104H, cover the resulting hole in the top with a piece of plywood and sit a SAM1HF on top.

I might try that if I were not worried some 250ti preservation hit squad out of Northridge might track me down...

:)

Jblnut

[hjames]

I might try that if I were not worried some 250ti preservation hit squad out of Northridge might track me down...

:)

Jblnut

Nah, gut that puppy! :banana:

But - don't forget to share the pictures with all of us living vicariously on your spoils!

[BMWCCA]

...250ti preservation hit squad out of Northridge...
I'm pretty certain 4313B can assure us that no such group exists!
Finding more that four people at Northridge who even know what a 250ti is might prove difficult as I understand it. :D

[jblnut]

I almost forgot the funniest part of the audition...

David was showing me the removable grilles for the bass unit and we both had a chuckle. It seems that your $12k does not buy you anything sensible like magnets to hold it in place. Yes folks, the Array 1400 has those same freaking plastic pins that have plagued JBL for so long.

So funny, and so wrong in a speaker in the price category...

Jblnut

[Dave_72]

I wonder how the Arrays compare to the S4700s. Are they about the same, or are the S4700s better? I'd say the S4700s are better but not by leaps and bounds. This is my honest opinion. I don't regret buying them, but I expected more...maybe they still need to break in?

[4313B]

I wonder how the Arrays compare to the S4700s. Are they about the same, or are the S4700s better? I'd say the S4700s are better but not by leaps and bounds. This is my honest opinion. I don't regret buying them, but I expected more...maybe they still need to break in?You'd really have to hear them side by side to make a decision.

I'm not kidding when I suggest to people to buy a pair of SAM1HF's and put them with a decent pair of low frequency transducers of their choice... there is alot to be said for the vertical horn sporting the 3-inch 435 compression driver core with the aluminum diaphragm. But... in reality, it isn't necessarily a slam dunk integrating the SAM1HF with various low frequency transducers, it can take some effort.

The K2-S5800 you wanted, the 1400 Array, the SAM1HF and the 4338 all use the same high frequency and ultra-high frequency compression drivers (some other systems did too, S4800, SK2-1000, etc).

The more expensive S4700 uses the less expensive 1.75-inch aluminum diaphragmed 175Nd-3 which is used in a vast number of JBL systems including the 1000 Array and 4429.

Pure speculation on my part but I suspect the Dealer suggested the S4700 to you based on price. I believe the K2-S5800's you originally wanted were $18K a pair, closer to the $20K price tag of the S4700, while the 1400 Array is "only" $12K a pair.

While the 1400 Array uses "better" compression drivers, the 2216Nd in the S4700 is arguably light years ahead of the LE14H-3, which is closely based on the original LE14A from the sixties - my point being that there isn't a whole lot of modern "goodies" or technology built into an LE14H-3 or LE14H-4. The reason the LE14H-3 and LE14H-4 can still be used in high performance loudspeakers today is because the guy who designed the LE14A back in the sixties hit a game changing home run and it takes a ton of modern technology to outperform it.

There is also the network to consider since that little detail literally makes or breaks a design. For example, although the 4365 uses significantly better transducers compared to the S4700, the S4700 ends up being the more musical of the two systems and that is primarily a network detail. One thing the S4700 makes liberal use of is neodymium and the weight savings is substantial.

[jblnut]

This is exactly what I heard David say. I had asked about the 4700 this summer and he said that his Harman rep recommended we try and get the 1400 for a demo instead. The word "better" came up a few times so it must be generally agreed somewhere within Harman that the 1400 punches a little above its weight in the product lineup.

jblnut

[4313B]

Well... if JBL does come through and make the 1501AL-1 and 1501AL-2 available over the counter in the next few months...

Of course that could end up a nightmare for JBL if people are buying 1500 Series drivers and SAM1HF's and then calling them non-stop to ask what to do with them... that gets them right back into the place they didn't want to be anymore in the eighties when they killed off the Loudspeaker Component Series.

I personally view the 1400 Array as one step below the K2-S9800 in terms of quality. Aluminum and titanium diaphragms instead of beryllium in the 435 and 045 cores and the venerable fourteen instead of the significantly higher priced 1500AL. And... I'll bet you can find some people who would prefer the 1400 Array over the K2-S9800. ;)

[Dave_72]

You'd really have to hear them side by side to make a decision.

I'm not kidding when I suggest to people to buy a pair of SAM1HF's and put them with a decent pair of low frequency transducers of their choice... there is alot to be said for the vertical horn sporting the 3-inch 435 compression driver core with the aluminum diaphragm. But... in reality, it isn't necessarily a slam dunk integrating the SAM1HF with various low frequency transducers, it can take some effort.

The K2-S5800 you wanted, the 1400 Array, the SAM1HF and the 4338 all use the same high frequency and ultra-high frequency compression drivers (some other systems did too, S4800, SK2-1000, etc).

The more expensive S4700 uses the less expensive 1.75-inch aluminum diaphragmed 175Nd-3 which is used in a vast number of JBL systems including the 1000 Array and 4429.

Pure speculation on my part but I suspect the Dealer suggested the S4700 to you based on price. I believe the K2-S5800's you originally wanted were $18K a pair, closer to the $20K price tag of the S4700, while the 1400 Array is "only" $12K a pair.

While the 1400 Array uses "better" compression drivers, the 2216Nd in the S4700 is arguably light years ahead of the LE14H-3, which is closely based on the original LE14A from the sixties - my point being that there isn't a whole lot of modern "goodies" or technology built into an LE14H-3 or LE14H-4. The reason the LE14H-3 and LE14H-4 can still be used in high performance loudspeakers today is because the guy who designed the LE14A back in the sixties hit a game changing home run and it takes a ton of modern technology to outperform it.

There is also the network to consider since that little detail literally makes or breaks a design. For example, although the 4365 uses significantly better transducers compared to the S4700, the S4700 ends up being the more musical of the two systems and that is primarily a network detail. One thing the S4700 makes liberal use of is neodymium and the weight savings is substantial.

Ok, thanks for the info! Much appreciated. Well, the dealer offered me the K29900s at $24k too. The deal came directly from JBL. Apparently they wanted to move product as the year came to a close. Anyway, I just couldn't afford the K2s, so I went with the S4700s instead, thinking it's the better speaker than the 1400 Array. I also didn't really take to the 1400 Array because of the assembly required. I'm a klutz, and I probably would break something in the assembly process. The K2-S5800s were available at the Harman store, but they only had 1 left. The price was around $3800 each.

But, overall, I'm ok with the S4700s, but again, I expected more out of them. And again, perhaps they need to be run in some more...

[Dave_72]

Well... if JBL does come through and make the 1501AL-1 and 1501AL-2 available over the counter in the next few months...

Of course that could end up a nightmare for JBL if people are buying 1500 Series drivers and SAM1HF's and then calling them non-stop to ask what to do with them... that gets them right back into the place they didn't want to be anymore in the eighties when they killed off the Loudspeaker Component Series.

I personally view the 1400 Array as one step below the K2-S9800 in terms of quality. Aluminum and titanium diaphragms instead of beryllium in the 435 and 045 cores and the venerable fourteen instead of the significantly higher priced 1500AL. And... I'll bet you can find some people who would prefer the 1400 Array over the K2-S9800. ;)

Ok, cool, thanks...the 1400 Array is a great speaker, imo.

[caladois]

Well, we are waiting for your home report !!! The S4700 look very nice. The only point for me concerned the horn driver. Anyway, I know the 4428 and 4429, and both sound very good.

Enjoy.

[Dave_72]

Well, we are waiting for your home report !!! The S4700 look very nice. The only point for me concerned the horn driver. Anyway, I know the 4428 and 4429, and both sound very good.

Enjoy.

Ok man, no problem! Thank you. The horn doesn't sound shouty, as for instance Klipsch speakers. I haven't heard those. :)

[MikeBrewster77]

I'm intrigued by this. So, hypothetically, if I were to buy two 4.0 cu ft boxes tuned to 28 Hz (because Lord knows I can't build one - my one attempt at woodworking, a bird house of all things, lasted less than one season, and then I felt bad that the birds' house collapsed in upon itself) ripped the LE14H-3s out of my PS1400s and installed them in said hypothetical boxes, and then plopped a hypothetical SAM1HF on top of each one, crossing the assembly passively with the network from a specific, very well known and desirable contemporary JBL speaker model (assuming I could hypothetically get my hands on one, 'cause again, I can't build it) or actively bi-amped the whole setup @ 750 Hz I could hypothetically have something pretty decent? Something that might be a rough approximation of a particular set of $12K speakers?

Hypothetically, of course...............


I'm not kidding when I suggest to people to buy a pair of SAM1HF's and put them with a decent pair of low frequency transducers of their choice... there is alot to be said for the vertical horn sporting the 3-inch 435 compression driver core with the aluminum diaphragm. But... in reality, it isn't necessarily a slam dunk integrating the SAM1HF with various low frequency transducers, it can take some effort.

[1audiohack]

I almost forgot the funniest part of the audition...

David was showing me the removable grilles for the bass unit and we both had a chuckle. It seems that your $12k does not buy you anything sensible like magnets to hold it in place. Yes folks, the Array 1400 has those same freaking plastic pins that have plagued JBL for so long.

So funny, and so wrong in a speaker in the price category...

Jblnut


Are you sure? Mine do not. The wire grill frame has four ends that slip with considerable friction into rubber wells. Same with the Array 1500 subs.

[Mr. Widget]

I'm intrigued by this. So, hypothetically, if I were to buy two 4.0 cu ft boxes tuned to 28 Hz (because Lord knows I can't build one - my one attempt at woodworking, a bird house of all things, lasted less than one season, and then I felt bad that the birds' house collapsed in upon itself) ripped the LE14H-3s out of my PS1400s and installed them in said hypothetical boxes, and then plopped a hypothetical SAM1HF on top of each one, crossing the assembly passively with the network from a specific, very well known and desirable contemporary JBL speaker model (assuming I could hypothetically get my hands on one, 'cause again, I can't build it) or actively bi-amped the whole setup @ 750 Hz I could hypothetically have something pretty decent? Something that might be a rough approximation of a particular set of $12K speakers?

Hypothetically, of course...............If it makes you feel any better, I own my own pair of these mystery $12K wonders and yet I still bought a pair of SAM1HFs and LE14h-3s last summer with the plan of doing just that when my schedule lightens up.

I wouldn't biamp them though as part of the magic is the carefully tuned passive network.


Widget

[JeffW]

Are you sure? Mine do not. The wire grill frame has four ends that slip with considerable friction into rubber wells. Same with the Array 1500 subs.

Same with the 800s. If they were gonna cut corners with plastic pins, surely the BOTL model would be it.

[Mr. Widget]

Are you sure? Mine do not. The wire grill frame has four ends that slip with considerable friction into rubber wells. Same with the Array 1500 subs.My 1400Arrays use the rubber cups and steel pins and they work better than magnets. The grilles are held on quite securely and the rubber guarantees that there is no audible buzz.


Widget

[MikeBrewster77]

If it makes you feel any better...

It does. Thank you! ;)

[tom1040]

Are you sure? Mine do not. The wire grill frame has four ends that slip with considerable friction into rubber wells. Same with the Array 1500 subs.


That is exactly how mine are as well.

[jblnut]

I blame the theater lighting in that room then - we both thought the pins were plastic (as were so many JBLs that had gone before), but perhaps they were indeed metal.

jblnut

[doodle6]

I'm about to make a run to SoCal to pick up some Array 1400s to take over duties from the 4350Bs currently in the living room, freeing up enough space that wife can begin to enjoy the fireplace again. Can any of you tell me if it would be easy/feasible to separate upper and lower components for transportation? I'm not sure whether it would be best to leave them assembled and lying down on a side, wrapped in furniture pads OR disassembled and wrapped individually. Any thoughts from those who did their own setups? Thanks.

[Dave_72]

I'd like to do a shoot out between the 1400 Arrays and my S4700s! :D

[Dave_72]

You'd really have to hear them side by side to make a decision.

I'm not kidding when I suggest to people to buy a pair of SAM1HF's and put them with a decent pair of low frequency transducers of their choice... there is alot to be said for the vertical horn sporting the 3-inch 435 compression driver core with the aluminum diaphragm. But... in reality, it isn't necessarily a slam dunk integrating the SAM1HF with various low frequency transducers, it can take some effort.

The K2-S5800 you wanted, the 1400 Array, the SAM1HF and the 4338 all use the same high frequency and ultra-high frequency compression drivers (some other systems did too, S4800, SK2-1000, etc).

The more expensive S4700 uses the less expensive 1.75-inch aluminum diaphragmed 175Nd-3 which is used in a vast number of JBL systems including the 1000 Array and 4429.

Pure speculation on my part but I suspect the Dealer suggested the S4700 to you based on price. I believe the K2-S5800's you originally wanted were $18K a pair, closer to the $20K price tag of the S4700, while the 1400 Array is "only" $12K a pair.

While the 1400 Array uses "better" compression drivers, the 2216Nd in the S4700 is arguably light years ahead of the LE14H-3, which is closely based on the original LE14A from the sixties - my point being that there isn't a whole lot of modern "goodies" or technology built into an LE14H-3 or LE14H-4. The reason the LE14H-3 and LE14H-4 can still be used in high performance loudspeakers today is because the guy who designed the LE14A back in the sixties hit a game changing home run and it takes a ton of modern technology to outperform it.

There is also the network to consider since that little detail literally makes or breaks a design. For example, although the 4365 uses significantly better transducers compared to the S4700, the S4700 ends up being the more musical of the two systems and that is primarily a network detail. One thing the S4700 makes liberal use of is neodymium and the weight savings is substantial.


Wait a minute, I'm positive the S4700s use titanium drivers?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/downloads/products/prod_149_634625674310216474_JBL%20S4700%20Loudspea ker%202-pg%20Brochure%202011-12-28.pdf

[Mr. Widget]

I'm about to make a run to SoCal to pick up some Array 1400s to take over duties from the 4350Bs currently in the living room, freeing up enough space that wife can begin to enjoy the fireplace again. Can any of you tell me if it would be easy/feasible to separate upper and lower components for transportation? I'm not sure whether it would be best to leave them assembled and lying down on a side, wrapped in furniture pads OR disassembled and wrapped individually. Any thoughts from those who did their own setups? Thanks.There is a strong possibility that they will be damaged in transit if you do not take the horns off. That said, if the Project Array badge on the horn is fully attached it may be quite difficult to remove it without damaging the soft touch paint on the horn.

Work slowly and have a helper to support the horn while you unplug the connection. Good Luck and I hope you enjoy the 1400s! They are a very different experience than the 4350s.


Widget

[HCSGuy]

I'm about to make a run to SoCal to pick up some Array 1400s to take over duties from the 4350Bs currently in the living room, freeing up enough space that wife can begin to enjoy the fireplace again. Can any of you tell me if it would be easy/feasible to separate upper and lower components for transportation? I'm not sure whether it would be best to leave them assembled and lying down on a side, wrapped in furniture pads OR disassembled and wrapped individually. Any thoughts from those who did their own setups? Thanks.

If I remember from previous threads, you have to remove the emblem at the bottom front of the horn to access the bolt that holds the horn to the woofer enclosure. Unfortunately, the emblem is held on by adhesive, so you'll probably mark up the horn getting it off, or damage the emblem. Getting a replacement from Harman may be difficult as well. I would carry it on its side or back, but with the head supported. The 800's and 1000's ship with the head attached - I have a thread somewhere here on fixing them when they get shaken loose by freight, so be very careful with supporting the head - can you carry them upright?

[4313B]

Wait a minute, I'm positive the S4700s use titanium drivers?Yep, memory is failing. The 175Nd-3 does use the aquaplased titanium diaphragm.

It's quite interesting that the 435AL really isn't that much more expensive, something like a hundred bucks if I remember correctly. Remember correctly... that's funny. :rotfl:

It's the 435Be that's a whole other ballgame. I think...

[doodle6]

I was hoping to be able to disassemble them easily, but that information about the badge being held on by adhesive is really a concern. But so is the thought of having significant side loads on the horn from riding horizontally.


[Edit - ran outside with tape] Just measured the clearance from the pickup bed to the camper shell and I have over two inches of clearance - enough for a sheet of 1/4" masonite, a furniture pad and then furniture pads around and over the tops of the horns. That's gonna be a MUCH better use of the space and a nicer, smoother ride for the speakers.

Thanks for the assistance. Without being led through, I'm afraid I wouldn't have considered the upright alternative.

[doodle6]

They are a very different experience than the 4350s. Widget

I'd pretty much resigned myself to not ever getting to hear the comparison, having missed an opportunity a couple of years ago to acquire a set of the 1400s. But thanks to a buddy here in town, I happened to do a search just hours after a set appeared a few days ago and managed to snag 'em. Absent hitting a MegaBall, they were the faint last remaining speakers on my bucket list. Isn't serendipity great?

[Dave_72]

Yep, memory is failing. The 175Nd-3 does use the aquaplased titanium diaphragm.

It's quite interesting that the 435AL really isn't that much more expensive, something like a hundred bucks if I remember correctly. Remember correctly... that's funny. :rotfl:

It's the 435Be that's a whole other ballgame. I think...

No problem. Thanks for the info. So, the K2 is really the way to go. I wish I could have afforded those...:D

[4313B]

So, the K2 is really the way to go.If a person has that kind of disposable income, sure.


I'm curious to see what happens with the new M2.

[JBLAddict]

No problem. Thanks for the info. So, the K2 is really the way to go. I wish I could have afforded those...:D

12K vs 44K


Wait a minute, I'm positive the S4700s use titanium drivers?

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/downloads/products/prod_149_634625674310216474_JBL S4700 Loudspeaker 2-pg Brochure 2011-12-28.pdf

The 2-inch Aqua-Plas™-coated titanium diaphragm compression driver (175Nd-3) is mated to a 90° x 60° Bi-Radial® horn and delivers mid- and high-frequencies with lifelike dynamics and startling realism while an ultra-high frequency 0.75-inch titanium diaphragm compression driver (138Nd) with a 60° x 30° Bi-Radial horn recreates critical air and spaciousness.

[4313B]

12K vs 44K



http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/jbl/hifi/s4700/

And the new M2 is $12k a pair too. It just isn't nearly as pretty and Harman wants to sell a couple Crown units to go with a pair.

The M2 uses the same 2216Nd that the S4700 uses. The M2 gives up a couple dB in efficiency though. The story goes that everyone liked the 2216Nd in the S4700 so much that they decided it was the goto driver for the new M2.

I've been told that there is nothing at all wrong with the S3900 or S4700 and the gentleman feeding me the information is highly reliable. But hey, we all hear differently and that's why there are so many different brands sold everyday.

And then there is the 1400 Array, in the same price range if I'm not mistaken. A tried and true loudspeaker system. Oh the choices! What to do! What to do! :p

[Mr. Widget]

12K vs 44KI was puzzling over this and then realized you were talking about $ instead of Hz. :D

A shoot out would be interesting... and is bound to happen in time. We just have to sit back and wait for Dome to strike. :bouncy:


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

A shoot out would be interesting... and is bound to happen in time. We just have to sit back and wait for Dome to strike. :bouncy:


Widget

You know too much!

[Valentin]

i have done this comparison K2 vs 1400 array

K2 win in all aspects in musical terms

my 2 hz

are the 1400arrays a good bang for the buck i would say excelent

[grumpy]

K2 win in all aspects in musical terms

That's the thing, eh? :)

I've heard them both, one after the other, in a not-particularly-optimized room
and came away with a similar impression. The K2 floated my boat in that setting.
Others preferred the 1400 Array... others the top line Revel system.
I've since heard the K2 system a number of times and have never been
disappointed.

I'm sure the designers of these systems would be just as happy to hear that
a fair number of listeners found the 1400 Array to better meet what makes a
system a winner in musical terms, in regard to their ears/environment/listening habits.

[moparfan]

I guess we'll all find out how the M2 fares but, even then, I think some of the appeal of JBL (for me) is it's link to professional sound. So even it is was more clinical/accurate I would tend towards them rather than the the euphonic "hi-fi" choice.

[Mr. Widget]

i have done this comparison K2 vs 1400 arrayK2 win in all aspects in musical terms my 2 hzare the 1400arrays a good bang for the buck i would say excelentI guess it depends on which musical terms matter most. ;) I think the K2 bests the Arrays in accuracy and detail resolution... it doesn't do quite as well in extension or imaging however.

Pure speculation, but I'd guess the K2 will best the M2 in resolution as well. With DSP power behind it I am sure the M2 will be stunningly accurate. :bouncy: How well the M2s image will be interesting. Before the 1400 Array no large JBL has floored me with their imaging ability.

Widget

[Valentin]

I guess it depends on which musical terms matter most. ;) I think the K2 bests the Arrays in accuracy and detail resolution... it doesn't do quite as well in extension or imaging however.

Pure speculation, but I'd guess the K2 will best the M2 in resolution as well. With DSP power behind it I am sure the M2 will be stunningly accurate. :bouncy: How well the M2s image will be interesting. Before the 1400 Array no large JBL has floored me with their imaging ability.

Widget

Indeed.

I am not after the image as much i am after a wide and airy soundstage
The array 80x80 dispersion gives a very good image but the 100x60 of the k2 iteracts more with the horizontal plane and while loosing some image it gains openes and a more natural sound. I alsow find the K2 too have a beter topend it just seems efortless.

probably the M2 will have the openess with its 120x100 dispersion but will alsow have the image with this new wave guide .

in extension i think the M2 will be an excelent performer beter than the 1400array but if we where to put dsp on the K2 ;) wow

[Robh3606]

I am not after the image as much i am after a wide and airy soundstage

I like a mix of both. I have PTH1010 which are 100X100 and depending on the material can really throw a wide open space. They also image very well, not quite as good as the Array 1400 but very well for an SR waveguide. I would love to get my hands on the M2 waveguides and see what they are about. It's fun playing with all this stuff.

Rob:)

[4313B]

I just want the M2 waveguide so I can bolt a 476 on the back and place them with a 1500AL in a real nice veneered enclosure and call it all done. That's how I'd want to spend my $12,000 dollars.

[Valentin]

I just want the M2 waveguide so I can bolt a 476 on the back and place them with a 1500AL in a real nice veneered enclosure and call it all done. That's how I'd want to spend my $12,000 dollars.

come on Giskard soon you will have the waveguides :bouncy: and not @ 12000, you have the meens, contacts and the nice jewley drivers to put on them and a excelent knowhow

In the other hand many will have to pay to play but thats the name of the game because we will get a key in hand system

[JBLAddict]

I guess it depends on which musical terms matter most. ;) I think the K2 bests the Arrays in accuracy and detail resolution... it doesn't do quite as well in extension or imaging however.

Pure speculation, but I'd guess the K2 will best the M2 in resolution as well. With DSP power behind it I am sure the M2 will be stunningly accurate. :bouncy: How well the M2s image will be interesting. Before the 1400 Array no large JBL has floored me with their imaging ability.

Widget

at the risk of sounding ignorant or misinterpreting "large JBL", I'll say I don't think I've heard better imaging than the L7; for whatever other warts it has, imaging is essentially perfect. I a/b'd them with the PS stacks this weekend for fun (not that the PS is known for good imaging) and it was no contest. Vocalists on the L7 are eerily front and center, always.

[BMWCCA]

at the risk of sounding ignorant or misinterpreting "large JBL", I'll say I don't think I've heard better imaging than the L7; for whatever other warts it has, imaging is essentially perfect. I a/b'd them with the PS stacks this weekend for fun (not that the PS is known for good imaging) and it was no contest. Vocalists on the L7 are eerily front and center, always.

I'll be ignorant right along with you. I've said here before that L7 placement issues are over-blown. When I brought my first pair home I stuck them right in the middle of the living room and found you could practically walk around in the soundstage, it was that three dimensional.

I have no imaging problems with my bi-amped 4345 clones set at 30º toe-in, ten-feet apart center-to-center, with the listening-position couch nine-feet away. I can close my eyes and feel like I'm at a live performance. Isn't that what soundstage is all about?


But then maybe I've never experienced perfect imaging, and I know I've never had the opportunity to listen to the 1400 Arrays!

[Robh3606]

at the risk of sounding ignorant or misinterpreting "large JBL", I'll say I don't think I've heard better imaging than the L7

The best for me were my XPL-200 clones simply uncanny.

Rob:)

[audiomagnate]

I'm about to make a run to SoCal to pick up some Array 1400s to take over duties from the 4350Bs currently in the living room, freeing up enough space that wife can begin to enjoy the fireplace again. Can any of you tell me if it would be easy/feasible to separate upper and lower components for transportation? I'm not sure whether it would be best to leave them assembled and lying down on a side, wrapped in furniture pads OR disassembled and wrapped individually. Any thoughts from those who did their own setups? Thanks.

Super easy. JBL knows best. Separate them. You are in for a treat.

[audiomagnate]

I'd like to do a shoot out between the 1400 Arrays and my S4700s! :D

My bet is on the 1400s. It's not even close. Yeah, they are that good. Goofy good. It's hard to explain. They float vocals in the room like nobody's business. Creepy good.

[Dave_72]

My bet is on the 1400s. It's not even close. Yeah, they are that good. Goofy good. It's hard to explain. They float vocals in the room like nobody's business. Creepy good.

Ok, you are entitled to your opinion. Even if I disagree with it.

However, have you heard the S4700s? I have heard both the 1400s and the S4700s, and the S4700s are more dynamic and transparent than the 1400s. I didn't like them a lot when I first got 'em, but after 2 months of break in, they're starting to gel.

Also, have you done a shoot out between the 1400s and the S4700s?

In addition, why would JBL put out a speaker that didn't perform better than the previous models?

It doesn't make sense from a design and business standpoint. I'm not saying it can't happen though.

Or are you just saying the S4700 is a dud.

I look forward to your response.

[Dave_72]

Some people like the looks of the 1400 Array and some people prefer the looks of the S4700.

I personally could live with either, although I would probably just take them both apart and put the 1400 Array horn over the 2216Nd. :D

Oh wait... wouldn't that be kind of like putting a SAM1HF over a low frequency transducer of choice? Where have I heard that before? :hmm:

Yes, I know I said I could never go back to a three-inch voice coil no matter how many of them JBL stuffed into a single driver, but the 2216Nd is a cutting edge transducer, arguably and understandably too clean for some old school JBL lovers.

Right, I hear ya. But, I just wanted to know how he formed his opinion.

If he's never heard the S4700, then it's all a wild guess on his part.

I just don't want people to be misleaded. As can happen on other forums.

Anyway, a shoot out is definitely in order, and I hope it happens somewhere out there, and sooner than later.

[Mr. Widget]

Right, I hear ya. But, I just wanted to know how he formed his opinion.

If he's never heard the S4700, then it's all a wild guess on his part.

I just don't want people to be misleaded. As can happen on other forums.

Anyway, a shoot out is definitely in order, and I hope it happens somewhere out there, and sooner than later.Hmmm... Hearing is believing, but if I compare two speakers and another person compares two speakers it is quite possible to come to two very different conclusions. That doesn't even begin to take into account hearing them with different electronics and in different rooms....



Widget

[Dave_72]

Hmmm... Hearing is believing, but if I compare two speakers and another person compares two speakers it is quite possible to come to two very different conclusions. That doesn't even begin to take into account hearing them with different electronics and in different rooms....



Widget

True...good points.

[Titanium Dome]

I have to admit, my early (1960s) choices were largely governed by looks, meaning not only the speaker's appearance but did it have impressive looking drivers I could show off, too?

It was fortunate in a way that I took this approach, because the JBL L100 Century pair I bought in 1970 took me to the other side. Not only was the appearance a show stopper, but the drivers were significantly better than what I was used to, and that started me on a more balanced looks plus performance quest. Now I'm sort of at a point where performance is the key component, but performance being equal and price being close, then I would choose the better appearing speaker. That's personal taste, eh?

Of course in a dedicated HT, speakers should be heard and not seen, so the SAM1/SAM2 combo is fine, regardless of appearance. Recently I got some additional vertical horn-based loudspeakers, and there's no question the performance is there, no question at all. I'm hoping to pit them against the K2s this weekend. The problem will come if I try to move the K2s out (maybe sell them) because Huikyong loves the K2s, especially the way they look. She does not like the look of Array-styled horns in any configuration.

If the 1400 Array and the S4700 were anywhere close to being equally satisfying, I'd be making the smart buy to get the S4700 which has that K2-esque appeal. I could get a pair in the house. The 1400 Array is not likely to get in unless it's all the way down to the lower level.

I know there's a tendency here to believe that an A-B comparison would solve a lot of issues, but frankly it creates more problems than it solves. (I'm ignoring the whole A/B/X thing, so please let's not bring that into it as well.) At least in my case, every time I compare two good JBL speakers, I tend to like both for different reasons. Anyone who's been to my house knows what that means; I end up keeping both. As Widget points out, speakers will have different strengths. Extension on a stock loudspeaker, especially at the bottom end, is easy to fix. Imaging, if it can be improved on a stock loudspeaker, can't be fixed without quite a bit of effort and modification.

Inevitably, one of us will get a 1400 Array and S4700 in the same place, listen to them in as accurate a way as anyone can in a sighted comparison, and report back on his or her findings. I will read that with interest, but also with a spoonful of skepticism, because it wasn't done in my listening environment, with my equipment, with my music, with my ears, and with my preferences/prejudices.

I really do believe it's better to "love the one you're with," but I keep bringing in these fascinating alternatives that easily convince me they're the one. :smsex:

[Dave_72]

I have to admit, my early (1960s) choices were largely governed by looks, meaning not only the speaker's appearance but did it have impressive looking drivers I could show off, too?

It was fortunate in a way that I took this approach, because the JBL L100 Century pair I bought in 1970 took me to the other side. Not only was the appearance a show stopper, but the drivers were significantly better than what I was used to, and that started me on a more balanced looks plus performance quest. Now I'm sort of at a point where performance is the key component, but performance being equal and price being close, then I would choose the better appearing speaker. That's personal taste, eh?

Of course in a dedicated HT, speakers should be heard and not seen, so the SAM1/SAM2 combo is fine, regardless of appearance. Recently I got some additional vertical horn-based loudspeakers, and there's no question the performance is there, no question at all. I'm hoping to pit them against the K2s this weekend. The problem will come if I try to move the K2s out (maybe sell them) because Huikyong loves the K2s, especially the way they look. She does not like the look of Array-styled horns in any configuration.

If the 1400 Array and the S4700 were anywhere close to being equally satisfying, I'd be making the smart buy to get the S4700 which has that K2-esque appeal. I could get a pair in the house. The 1400 Array is not likely to get in unless it's all the way down to the lower floor.

I know there's a tendency here to believe that an A-B comparison would solve a lot of issues, but frankly it creates more than it solves. (I'm ignoring the whole A/B/X thing, so please let's not bring that into it as well.) At least in my case, every time I compare two good JBL speakers, I tend to like both for different reasons. Anyone who's been to my house knows what that means; I end up keeping both. As Widget points out, speakers will have different strengths. Extension on a stock loudspeaker, especially at the bottom end, is easy to fix. Imaging, if it can be improved on a stock loudspeaker, can't be fixed without quite a bit of effort and modification.

Inevitably, one of us will get a 1400 Array and S4700 in the same place, listen to them in as accurate a way as anyone can in a sighted comparison, and report back on his or her findings. I will read that with interest, but also with a spoonful of skepticism, because it wasn't done in my listening environment, with my equipment, with my music, with my ears, and with my preferences/prejudices.

I really do believe it's better to "love the one you're with," but I keep bringing in these fascinating alternatives that easily convince me they're the one. :smsex:

I see. Good points there as well. I didn't go for the Arrays mainly because of the assembly required. I'm a klutz for the most part, and I'd probably wreck the cabinet. And/or the horn.

[JuniorJBL]

but I keep bringing in these fascinating alternatives that easily convince me they're the one. :smsex:


Hummmm........................What did Dome drag home this time?;)

[Mr. Widget]

As much as sonics are subjective, beauty truly is in the eye if the beholder. I do prefer the aesthetics of the Everest II to all other JBLs, hell... most all other speakers. I readily admit this is a biasing factor. Luckily they sound pretty damned good too! :bouncy:


Widget

[Dave_72]

As much as sonics are subjective, beauty truly is in the eye if the beholder. I do prefer the aesthetics of the Everest II to all other JBLs, hell... most all other speakers. I readily admit this is a biasing factor. Luckily they sound pretty damned good too! :bouncy:


Widget

There you go. Sounds good.

[sweet212]

I've got to but in here. The 1400's are the most un JBL like sound I have heard. Neutral and mellow mid and top end with an almost overwhelming bass output.... IMO.
Audiomagnate is right when he says "they can float a voice into the room".
Of all the JBL's I 've owned and I've owned many - these are my favorite.

[Dave_72]

I've got to but in here. The 1400's are the most un JBL like sound I have heard. Neutral and mellow mid and top end with an almost overwhelming bass output.... IMO.
Audiomagnate is right when he says "they can float a voice into the room".
Of all the JBL's I 've owned and I've owned many - these are my favorite.

That's cool, but that doesn't mean they're better than the S4700s or even the K2 9900s.

[doodle6]

I've got to but in here. The 1400's are the most un JBL like sound I have heard. Neutral and mellow mid and top end with an almost overwhelming bass output.... IMO.
Audiomagnate is right when he says "they can float a voice into the room".
Of all the JBL's I 've owned and I've owned many - these are my favorite.

Initial impressions of the 1400s are very good. I haven't had the opportunity yet to play them with a high powered amp, but with a smaller McIntosh, the MA6100, I have to say that I am very pleasantly impressed. The most prominent feature of all is their ability to create a very open and accessible sound stage, with instruments and voices perceived in a spatially coherent way. This is a perception that's pretty unique from JBLs, at least from my experience with them, which dates back over thirty five years to my first purchase of L-150s in 1976 or so. I've been up and down the ranks from L-26s and L-65s up to 4345s and 4350s, and including two way, three way, and four way offerings and these really are different in that regard. Where what I'm used to has been accuracy and a lack of coloration, and an ability to handle any dynamics presented (most amazingly with the 4350s) I am finding an additional quality of immediacy and immersion in the auditory experience. Only one other speaker has made this impression on me and that, surprisingly, was the Altec Valencia. Unfortunately, in my experience, the Valencias don't have anywhere near the ability of JBLs to handle dynamics. They tend to begin breaking down and getting muddy and incoherent at higher volume levels, but jazz ensembles at low to moderate volumes are delightful. Anyway, the 1400s have that ability to image extremely well and to do so at any listening level, and to do it with a delicacy and clarity that's pretty amazing. I can almost feel Diana Krall peeling my grape. The only weaknesses I've detected are a noticeable boominess in the bass, perhaps an artifact of the underpowered amp that's currently driving them, and a sense that they don't have as much dynamic potential as the 4350s whose place they've taken in my living room. Again, that may just be the understandable result of powering them with a 70 wpc amp where the 4350s' bottom ends were driven with 270 wpc. But I never heard the slightest hint that the 4350s were operating above an idle, even with challenging Bach organ pieces.

One other upside is that compared to the 4350s, when one looks at my living room now, one can imagine Mitt and Ann sitting here listening rather than Jethro and Ellie Mae. Visually, they are classy.

[4313B]

a sense that they don't have as much dynamic potential as the 4350s
The 4350 bottom end was 4 ohms and 96 dB SPL 1W,1m.

I thought of using dual LE14H's for a project once but there wasn't any benefit to doing so. They would have required an 8 cubic foot box, as opposed to 10 cubic feet for the dual fifteens, and they'd still only yield 93 dB SPL 1W, 1m while costing roughly the same.

[wrager]

Hummmm........................What did Dome drag home this time?;)

...oh just a pair of GT's personal, custom speakers, if I'm connecting the dots correctly.

[SEAWOLF97]

...oh just a pair of GT's personal, custom speakers, if I'm connecting the dots correctly.

yes, he started a thread called "9" , crowing abt the deal , but has now disappeared.

[4313B]

It was unfortunate for nearly everyone involved.

But the objective of getting both pair sold with minimal hassle was met so I reckon in the end it all worked out for the best.

[grumpy]

Yes, perhaps it was unfortunate for those other than the seller and buyer ... they both seem
to have been comfortable with the sale/purchase (likely a severe understatement for the buyer).

That said, I know the recipient is thoroughly enjoying the mains set, intact...
and that had I been given the notice and opportunity, I'd have been vying for
that rather amazing set too! :banghead: (yes, a bit jealous... especially after hearing them).
In that setting, they sent the K2 S9900 back to school (spatial image/depth) and they
integrated with existing subs better. Hard to imagine, but that's what I heard.
Hard to know how much to attribute to the individual pieces (476, DX-1, vert horn,...)
but the sum of the parts was -very- entertaining.

So... another vote for DIY 1200/1400 Array type projects :yes:

[SEAWOLF97]

Yes, perhaps it was unfortunate for those other than the seller and buyer ... they both seem
to have been comfortable with the sale/purchase (likely a severe understatement for the buyer).

so why did the thread disappear ?

[4313B]

so why did the thread disappear ?Too many people already knew the backstory so the whole tone ended up being rather offensive. I wasn't the first to see that thread. But I sure did hear about it!

It would have been nice, since two pair were offered, if two people had been able to take advantage of the deal but it was all over in less than forty-five minutes, basically in mid-discussion. :rotfl:

I got the feeling that G.T. was quite surprised.


had I been given the notice and opportunity, I'd have been vying forthat rather amazing set too! :banghead: (yes, a bit jealous... especially after hearing them).Well... that's my point... you should have been... you were local. Like I said, it all happened in less than forty-five minutes. If I'd had your contact information on hand you'd have been contacted. I did think of you.


In that setting, they sent the K2 S9900 back to school (spatial image/depth) and they integrated with existing subs better. Hard to imagine, but that's what I heard.Nevermind that G.T. replaced one of the pairs with K2-S9900's. ;)

Granted, I'm no big fan of the K2-S9900 but the components are certainly top shelf and the question should probably be "How is the K2-S9900 doing in its target market?"

We've been over the whole vertical horn thing for years and you know as well as anyone. And yes, I realize that there are a whole group of people who freak out about all that floor and ceiling bounce going on. :rotfl:


So... another vote for DIY 1200/1400 Array type projects :yes:What are we supposed to call the versions that use fifteens? :blink: :p

[grumpy]

I hope to find out! :)

[4313B]

I hope to find out! :)Sweet! :bouncy:

[JuniorJBL]

...oh just a pair of GT's personal, custom speakers, if I'm connecting the dots correctly.
I hope I get to hear them sometime!!;)


I hope to find out! :)

Ohh goody!!:banana:

(yep, that one needed a banana :p)