Best low-mid foor sort of 4345 clone with 2352 horn?

[Hans Bleeker]

What low-mid solution would be the best aproach for puting in between een 2235. 2352 with 2350sl and a 2405?
I red a lot of goods about the 2122 , the 2202 seems to be a bit lesser , but to keep up with the 2352 I´m serious thinking about a low mid horn, 4560 came to mind. Curently in a 3 way system I have a Huge sound stage and (for me) massive dynamics, it is a bit like a 4430 but then a LOT bigger, used to run 4430´s with updated passive crossovers , My curent problem lays im in that I have the baskets but need to invest serious in official recones for either a 2202 or 2122 pair. I feel serious tempted to go the 4560 way and put a set of 2035´s in them. They would be used from about 200Hz to 800Hz so I have at least (all though close) 2 octaves in between the filter points, I want to get rid of the 15" coloration at those upper frequenties and have no idea how a 4560 would perform in that upper region, with music its not that bad but with bad program material, ie TV broadcasts, those 2235's can be VERY noticable ( cross them curently at 800Hz, at 700Hz I start to hear some horn artifacts). Or how would a 2122 do in a horn loaded enclosure?
Btw, I tried 2204 ,2206 and , those units are great if I run some power trough them, but i want to be able to play normal volumes too. Tried the 2123 too I didnt like that one at all, didnt connect well to the system. 2204 was bit dark but musical, 2206 very nice when I hit the throttle :)
I have been reading for the past 10 days day in day out on this forum, but I can't figure out still what road would be the best bet.
Made it a long story but thought I better give as much info as I can think of.
Hope somebody can lead me the way :)

[1audiohack]

Hi Hans;

Do you employ active crossover and EQ?

Do you employ measurement equipment?

Where did the 2123 leave you wanting?

Barry.

[Hans Bleeker]

Hello Audiohack.

Im using an active analog crossover, 12 and 18 dB Butterworth selectable. No EQ, I try to keep as minimum electronics in the chain as possible. I have a Clio system for messurement, although I can get a perfect transition from the 2123 on screen, it just doesnt sound right, the 2206 and 2204 sounded way better in the same opperating range (although they had some drawbacks too as I mentioned in the post), used the 2123 from 300Hz upward. I find it hard to define where it lacked, I think good comparisson is that it was just if I putted a digital crossover on that part of the system, where the rest was still free to play music the 2123 somehow didnt came loose. I was thinking that it might suffer from the stiff suspension, but the 2206 has also a stiff suspension and when i play that at higher volumes it starts to sound perfect.

[Mr. Widget]

I am not sure horn loading the lower mids is your best option, you will gain dynamics but increase coloration too... then there is the fact that the JBL horn you are suggesting is for longer throw applications than we typically find in a home.


So how do the 2206s come up short at lower SPLs?


Widget

[Hans Bleeker]

They sound thin at lower volumes, specialy noticable in human voices, when i crank the volume up, they are wonderfull.
I am not surprised by that btw, its in its intended application range then.

[Mr. Widget]

I can see that... you might be able fix that with the proper cabinet loading. Alternatively you may need to passively adjust their response to better fit the voicing you want to achieve.

The 2206 in the proper cabinet has a very linear response down well below 100Hz. The 2123 on the other hand has quite the rising response... I can understand why it wouldn't work without the right passive network or external EQ.


Widget

[4313B]

I have no complaints with any of the mentioned transducers.

What kind of power is on these midrange transducers? I ask because I use high current Citation 22's on my 2206H's and they resolve quite well and require very little power for normal listening.

The 2123H is arguably the most difficult to integrate. I don't see how you can do it in a home environment using just a typical active filter unless you like that particular sound. Its very high efficiency is really only useful for SR, one tends to cut alot of that out to flatten it out for home use. The 2202H is similar.

The 2122H is probably the most user friendly of the bunch. The only reasons I still don't use it are because the 2206H has a 4-inch VC and a more robust surround.


G.T. doesn't bother anymore, he just runs fourteens or fifteens up to the horns.

[Hans Bleeker]

I use a QSC EX4000 on the lows, so far havent FELT any amp that keeps up with it, then go to 3 Dateq HPA1000's for the rest of the units, they are 500Wpc 8 Ohm . probably not a well known amp outside of the Netherlands, but its a great improvement over the good old 6290 amp I must say. I send signal to it from an old Accuphase C200l, that preamp makes it so hard to get it right, It has a (for me) great sound that I like.

Speaking of that passive stuf, I builded the 4355 and 4345 networks for high to high mid, non cc'd versions as published on this site, just to see how that would compare, the 4355 sounded most promissing to me but i notice that If i just go from amp to driver its somehow cleaner, thats why I try to do it active. I only want to make later on a small correction network for the cd horn, but thats just an R-C network.


I might go try again with the 2206 first, in mean time order a set of 2122 recones. never thought about that proper cabinet loading for that unit, have it in the box from the JBL enclosure guide, reflex I think 54 liters. Thought that that was calculated by way more wise man then I can ever understand :)


I think G.T is a Wise man, I make my own life misserable .......

A picture of how it was, the 2404's and 06's are gone now but ofc I still have them laying around.

[4313B]

I might go try again with the 2206 first, in mean time order a set of 2122 recones. never thought about that proper cabinet loading for that unit, have it in the box from the JBL enclosure guide, reflex I think 54 liters.

Ah! Try 1.2 cubic feet (34 l) tuned to 60 Hz. If I remember correctly JBL liked to tune it down around 50 Hz in a larger 2 cu ft box for SR.

(I think JBL also had a 1.2 cu ft box for the 2206H but I can't remember the model number.)

[ivica]

Hello Audiohack.

I am using an active analog crossover, 12 and 18 dB Butterworth selectable. No EQ, I try to keep as minimum electronics in the chain as possible. I have a Clio system for measurement, although I can get a perfect transition from the 2123 on screen, it just doesn't sound right, the 2206 and 2204 sounded way better in the same operating range (although they had some drawbacks too as I mentioned in the post), used the 2123 from 300Hz upward. I find it hard to define where it lacked, I think good comparison is that it was just if I putted a digital crossover on that part of the system, where the rest was still free to play music the 2123 somehow didn't came loose. I was thinking that it might suffer from the stiff suspension, but the 2206 has also a stiff suspension and when i play that at higher volumes it starts to sound perfect.

I have done some simulations ONLY in order to "see" is it "possible" to use 2202 in 4345-clone as mid-bass instead of 2122.
I have done such simulation with 2123 too, and E120 basket re-coned with 2202 kit (C8R2202).
On the simulation 'piston-inc' behavior in HF is simulated too, all with the about 15 Lit close-box.
"On the paper" seems me OK, but up to now, I have not done any measurements.

Regards
Ivica

[4313B]

You guys might want to try using a miniDSP to dial in the system.

Once dialed in, the miniDSP voltage drives can be output to a software package wherein a higher quality passive or active solution can be designed if desired. Note that you end up with a very non-generic set of frequency dividing networks though. You end up with a "system in the room" solution, not some anechoic solution.

[Hans Bleeker]

Gentleman, all thanks for your'e time and answers, I will go for the 2206 option first, see what I did wrong there, and later on I will try the 4560 , just to see how that will sound. I know if I dont try it , I will keep it for ever in my head.
I will update every now and then my discovery's in here.

[subwoof]

The last time I did a playback system with that horn ( and 2450SL ) I used a 2227 in a 4655 cabinet that was sealed tight. It was a good fit when stacked and that cab had flyware to attach the horn to.

That combo seemed to work well and I left the real deep stuff to a 4688 with old 2240's in it Both of the cabs were from the 1997 NAMM show original warehouse sale. whatta deal..:)

I tried a number of 10 and 12 cones / cabinets for the mids and everyone needed some real EQ to work although I didn't have any 2206 at that time but tried the 2202/04/03 in the real small theater LF utility cab ( probably the one 4313 mentioned ).

Granted this was a try it and like it attempt without any serious tuning and/or DSP but I used a crown USM810 to do the crossover and delay and it worked out well.

I need to do that again...:)

[1audiohack]

My apologies in advance for jumping the tracks here:

A USM 810 is what heads up my shop system. Love the GUI, DBX should have used it.

[Hans Bleeker]

Seems I found my problem, after trying every thing I could think of, I found its the coupling between the Dateq amps and the QSC, replaced the Dateq's today with EX2500's, WOW what a difference, everything fell into place.
BUT! I can see now what the advantages are of running the woofers up to the horn, somehow that intergration I seem not able to make that with a 4 way. In the 3 way combo I have one massive soundstage with depth and placing ,more then I ever dared to hope for, and not the High End soundstage where sometimes instruments and vocals are 100 or more yards appart :) Can also be sinds Im to close to the system , about 3 meters, so the system doesnt get a chance to intergrate.

So whats next, I think I go for a set of 2234's up to the horn and sinds I have one channel spare now on the crossover I should use the remaining 2235's to 100Hz me think, then I get a sort of 4436,5 :)

To be continued

[Dr.db]

I want to get rid of the 15" coloration at those upper frequenties..., with music its not that bad but with bad program material, ie TV broadcasts, those 2235's can be VERY noticable ... cross them curently at 800Hz.




BUT! I can see now what the advantages are of running the woofers up to the horn, somehow that intergration I seem not able to make that with a 4 way. In the 3 way combo I have one massive soundstage with depth and placing ,more then I ever dared to hope for, and not the High End soundstage where sometimes instruments and vocals are 100 or more yards appart :) Can also be sinds Im to close to the system , about 3 meters, so the system doesnt get a chance to intergrate.



I´m wondering how your project turned out finally?
Would you say the 4-way is better than the 3-way if your listening distance would be greater than 3 meters?
Or are you willing to accept the colorations of the 15"-woofer in the mids to be recompensed with a better system integration e.g. soundstage of a 3-way?