some TAD help needed if possible.

[bottleneck]

Hey All

I have some TAD TN-4 crossovers, which are made to run either 2 x 1601's, or 1 x 1601 bass unit. It's a 2 way crossover which comes advertised as switchable between these two configurations.

Here's the weird bit -

I can see no switch, or obvious way of ''swapping'' the crossover between 2 x 1601 , and 1 x 1601.


Just using the TN-4 as is (with my 1 x 1601 p/side) I am getting a bass-light presentation, which leads me to assume I need to do " whatever TAD say I should " to swap their crossover between dual bass cone and single bass cone use.

So what's the problem?

..

agghhhh.. I just can't get ahold of ANYONE at Pioneer who knows the first thing about TAD products, most especially the 'TN' series of crossovers. I am peeing into the wind, and just getting wet trousers.

It's a huge frustration after spending so much on TAD drive units, and the crossovers (all bought used admittedly..but still!!! agggggh!)


Does ANYONE have a contact at TAD?
Anyone know anyone who knows someone at TAD?


Fingers crossed :)

Thx

[richluvsound]

Try sending Kenji an email . I know he's doing a lot of work with the TAD studio monitors at the moment .

Rich

[stephane RAME]

http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/201004/29/579_1272516902AKpO.jpg
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29473-Custom-TAD-JBL-Studio-Monitors

Stéphane

[bottleneck]

http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/201004/29/579_1272516902AKpO.jpg

Hi Stephane!

Thanks for posting that. This is the only thing that I have, no other paperwork.

I can't see anything from this drawing which shows me how to swap the crossover from dual 15's to a single 15. I wonder if I'm missing something obvious (?)


Rich - I've sent Kendrick Sound an email, but I don't hold out too much hope of reply. I've emailed his inbox before, and received no reply.


Anyone have any contacts in TAD?

[stephane RAME]

Hi,
To 2 HP, it says "dual parallel," why not, but it's dropped the impedance to 4 ohms.
So changes the cutoff frequency, compared to 1 HP (8 ohms).

Stéphane

[bottleneck]

Hi Stephane,

If my understading is correct, using 2 x 15" p/ch would increase efficiency by approx 3db.

there ''must'' be a change needed in the crossover to change from 1 x 15 to 2 x 15 configuration, to account for this efficiency change.

am I wrong on this?


thx

[bottleneck]

Got a reply from Kenji.


He doesn't have a clue :)

Still, at least he got back to me.


Anyone got a contact at TAD ?

[pos]

Maybe IWT (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/member.php?16487-I-want-TAD) would know, I think he did clone some TAD filters in the past.

[jerry_rig]

As mentioned in a link below, I have been using the TN-4 for some time now and have tried it with several different woofer combinations. However, using a 1601c, and with a proper amplifier, the bass is definitely not bass-lite. I'm not sure what cabinet you are using or how it is tuned, but there may be an issue there.

Second, if you want to run two 1601s (or 1602 or 1603), try them in parallel off of the LF terminal. Yes, the result will be 4 Ohms, but at least according to the chart, the crossover point and slopes will be fine. I have not tried this myself, but I would think it would work fine. I am pretty sure there is no switch or other modification necessary.

[bottleneck]

Hi Jerry

I'd maintain - that my limited knowledge of electronics... surely a change MUST be necessary to the crossover when you add more woofers.

Its my understanding that every added woofer adds 3db to the efficiency....

therefore adding an extra bass unit.....this would make the bass 3db more efficient than the mid-range.



which will in effect make the bass louder when you add 1 woofer to a crossover.

therefore, there MUST be some modification or change needed to the TN-4 to make it work with 1 woofer or 2.


I've emailed ''TAD USA'' ...hope they have some contact in TAD JAPAN..

failing that, can anyone write in Japanese? :D

[Mr. Widget]

I've emailed ''TAD USA'' ...hope they have some contact in TAD JAPAN..
Good luck on that one. :(

They aren't terribly good at getting back to people even regarding current product, the monitors have been discontinued and out of production for years.


Widget

[4313B]

I assume all the capacitors are under this board?

I am unable to see the following link for some reason (DNS failure) so I don't know what the jpg is of. Hopefully a schematic.

http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/2...516902AKpO.jpg (http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/201004/29/579_1272516902AKpO.jpg)

[jerry_rig]

Yes, the capacitors are under the board and are sealed in some kind of epoxy. A buddy of mine has "reverse engineered" the entire design by testing the components, so I could theoretically get you the schematic (not promising this). Apparently, TAD uses only one or two capacitor values and combines them in various circuits to get the desired results.

If you are worried about the LF being 3dB too high, you could easily insert an L-Pad.

[bottleneck]

hi jerry -

if you could ask him if he has the schematic, that would be brilliant. We should be able to reverse-engineer the change there.

I'd need to use the L-pad on the horn, as I have too little bass in relation to the horn rather than too much. IMHO the insertion of an L-pad is always audible, so would rather find another route if I can...

[NickH]

I assume all the capacitors are under this board?

I am unable to see the following link for some reason (DNS failure) so I don't know what the jpg is of. Hopefully a schematic.

http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/2...516902AKpO.jpg (http://home.tubebbs.com/attachment/201004/29/579_1272516902AKpO.jpg)



Nice rug, HeHeHe.

[bottleneck]

wow... how awesome is this?

Andrew Jones is going to Tokyo, and he's going to try to find out the answer for me while he's there :D


Sometimes an email and a bit of faith.... :D :D :D

[cooky1257]

Won't the 2 x1601 be a 2.5 way config with the second 1601 only running up to 250 hz or so?

[bottleneck]

heya cooky. Hows things?


nooo, the tn-4 either fires up the woofers in dual parallel, or just 1 x 15".

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=3339012&is_user=0

[cooky1257]

heya cooky. Hows things?


nooo, the tn-4 either fires up the woofers in dual parallel, or just 1 x 15".

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/image.php?image=3339012&is_user=0

Hi there, fine thanks and yourself?

Ah ok 2x15 all the way up to Horn.

Feels like there should be a jumper in/out of place somewhere.
You could always buy another pair of 1601's!

Frank

[bottleneck]

hiya,

the jumper thing makes sense. I'm hoping for something like that.

You read my mind ref ''extra pair of 1601's" . . .

As widget says though, with the high price of TAD drivers, I could probably sell the drive units and get some Project Arrays instead if it came to that.

The above actually makes sense - but you know how it is when you make something yourself - it becomes ''your baby'' and you can't stand for it not to be right . . you have to fix it because you made it !

[jerry_rig]

Here are some shots:

571205711957118

[richluvsound]

I think Guido has this schematic ..... Drop him a line ... and then there is Mackenzie ! He has more info too !

[4313B]

As widget says though, with the high price of TAD drivers, I could probably sell the drive units and get some Project Arrays instead if it came to that.After further investigation on the Internet I'd have to agree with Mr. Widget.

[frank23]

Btw, would anyone have a location on the internet where info on the TAD drivers can ben found? Years ago one could find this on a separate part of the regular Pioneer site, but the TAD name now seems to be used for a high-end speaker line with small woofers instead of the real TAD stuff.

Oh wait, I found it, seems Google has also "realised" that lot of people did not want to see the new TAD when they were looking for the old:
http://tad-labs.com/en/professional/unitspeaker/

And here is their new consumer line, but I don't care about these products as they seem to be high end as a lot of other stuff:
http://tad-labs.com/en/consumer/index.html

[Mr. Widget]

wow... how awesome is this?

Andrew Jones is going to Tokyo, and he's going to try to find out the answer for me while he's there :D


Sometimes an email and a bit of faith.... :D :D :DThat is very nice of him, but then he is one hell of a nice guy.

I think the posts above should answer all of your questions though.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

After further investigation on the Internet I'd have to agree with Mr. Widget.
:D


Widget

[grumpy]

And here is their new consumer line, but I don't care about these products as they seem to be high end...

hi Frank, I'm sure you have your reasons, but have you heard them? Holy crap! If I had the means, they'd be on my short list :) (ok, my list isn't very short)

jumpers or extra terminals makes sense for the TN-4 question.

[bottleneck]

I think Guido has this schematic ..... Drop him a line ... and then there is Mackenzie ! He has more info too !

I'm hoping they will see the thread. . It seems very presumptious of me to message them totally out of the blue.


I googled Project Array 1400's.. £8,500!!! (about $12,000). ooyaaah. Maybe not then!

..nb.. and then his valve pre-amp has just blown up.

Not my day. .

[Ian Mackenzie]

Its not a big issue.

Just pad back the horn 3 db using 10 ohms as a base line to calculate the attenuation.

Failing that buy a couple of 8 ohm L pads from Parts Express.

Somewhere on an old server I modelled the Tad crossover.
The 36 db crossover low pass slope does two jobs. Its steep slope removes the response hash above 650 herts that the Tad cone has and also creates a time domain delay on the woofers to align the woofers and the horn.

Way ahead of JBL crossover network design at the time

[bottleneck]

Hi Ian

I'll wait to hear what TAD have to say - it would be great if there is a simple jumper or similar. It would be nice to hear the crossover as TAD intended it to be heard.

Incidentally if they can't give me the answer .. then an L-pad will be the most sensible solution.

I notice the 4002's are - 16ohm.

Would using 8 ohm Lpads such as these make any difference?

http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/l-pad-attenuator-at-62h-425-p.asp

Or should a 16 ohm Lpad be used?

[frank23]

hi Frank, I'm sure you have your reasons, but have you heard them? Holy crap! If I had the means, they'd be on my short list :) (ok, my list isn't very short)

jumpers or extra terminals makes sense for the TN-4 question.

I'm sorry I haven't heard them. But I expect them to be terrific in the way that high end can be terrific. I just like large drivers with plenty of air to move. This gives a directness to the sound that I like. And the TADs are more like the B&W range so it seems from the pics, but I'm sure they sound great. So it wasn't meant as critique on the sound, I just think they won't turn out to be classics like some TAD drivers are now.

[grumpy]

I completely understand, no apologies needed :)
If you -do- get a chance to hear the new models,
I'd highly recommend the experience... Much like
I would like to hear a properly setup pair of older
TAD-based monitors... expecting to be impressed
in a somewhat different way, but impressed
nonetheless.

[bottleneck]

Tad have had a real knack for making beautiful cabinets, truly ''years ahead of their time'' (IMO) - they came out 1980-82.

Check out some of these beauties, which you don't normally see -


57137


57136

[bottleneck]

I dont know why I was so totally against L-pads.. . perhaps more from internet hype than actuality.

All I can say, if you're out there reading this.. and you have TAD TN-4 crossovers . . and only one woofer - you NEED 3db of attenuation on your horn.

Maybe TAD will come back with some clever way of doing this in the crossover, but I actually have BASS now, and I feel like I got X-mas and Birthday altogether for the price of a few resistors and a soldering iron.. .


thank you to everyone that pushed me in this direction, despite resistance :)

[JBLGUY]

I dont know why I was so totally against L-pads.. . perhaps more from internet hype than actuality.

All I can say, if you're out there reading this.. and you have TAD TN-4 crossovers . . and only one woofer - you NEED 3db of attenuation on your horn.

Maybe TAD will come back with some clever way of doing this in the crossover, but I actually have BASS now, and I feel like I got X-mas and Birthday altogether for the price of a few resistors and a soldering iron.. .


thank you to everyone that pushed me in this direction, despite resistance :)

It's pretty rare that any Horn/driver combo isn't gonna need some type of attenuation or boosting to match the other parts of the system. So an Lpad is okay.
I am a big believer in going multi amp setups. That way all parts can be adjusted to suit.
I have said before that doing it by ear is a more effective way rather than going by the book. With a little experience it isn't hard to set things where they sound best.
An Lpad is the most basic way of doing it but effective at the same time.
If you own more than one amp think obout bi-amping or more amping and get way better sound. Of course you need an active crossover but they can be had starting at like 80 bucks on ebay and up. 80 is low end but I've had some cheaper active xovers and they weren't too bad. A Rane is a good choice and can be bought used for a pretty good deal. IMO bi-amping with average equipment is better than a passive xover anyday.
Plus the flexibility is much greater on setting levels. Better sound ...less duty for each amp...better control over each driver.
PLUS Then NO Lpads

[jerry_rig]

All I can say, if you're out there reading this.. and you have TAD TN-4 crossovers . . and only one woofer - you NEED 3db of attenuation on your horn.
...
thank you to everyone that pushed me in this direction, despite resistance

And thank you for raising this issue. I just installed -3dB pads on my horns and I am loving the sound. Definitely less "in your face" and more natural. I knew something was off, but couldn't imagine TAD got this wrong. Live and learn...

Best Wishes.

[louped garouv]

those 2301s are really nice looking IMO....

anyone know their scale?

[Odd]

those 2301s are really nice looking IMO....

anyone know their scale?

You can find some info here (http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/speaker/model2301-e.html)

[bottleneck]

It's pretty rare that any Horn/driver combo isn't gonna need some type of attenuation or boosting to match the other parts of the system. So an Lpad is okay.
I am a big believer in going multi amp setups. That way all parts can be adjusted to suit.
I have said before that doing it by ear is a more effective way rather than going by the book. With a little experience it isn't hard to set things where they sound best.
An Lpad is the most basic way of doing it but effective at the same time.
If you own more than one amp think obout bi-amping or more amping and get way better sound. Of course you need an active crossover but they can be had starting at like 80 bucks on ebay and up. 80 is low end but I've had some cheaper active xovers and they weren't too bad. A Rane is a good choice and can be bought used for a pretty good deal. IMO bi-amping with average equipment is better than a passive xover anyday.
Plus the flexibility is much greater on setting levels. Better sound ...less duty for each amp...better control over each driver.
PLUS Then NO Lpads


Hi JBL Guy

I actually started 'life' (or my build project) with an Ashly XR2001, and three power amps.

I hope my comments don't upset anyone, but I'd like to say it as I see it.. it's the only way to be.



I enjoyed and appreciated the extra 'punch' in the bass from going active. I would say on balance that it is a very good thing.

The mid-range horn and treble horn however - going active with the Ashly added a layer of I can best describe it as "muddy sound" to these drive units. I definately prefer the presentation of the horns passively, by some margin.

I know this is not always the case. A friend had the Pass Labs crossover, and I would have to say this was essentially 'near invisible' sounding on the horns. This crossover is rare and highly expensive however.



I think a good solution (for me, to my ears) would be going active in the bass and passive in the mid-horn and tweeter (horn).

For the moment I haven't pursued this course because I believe that amplifier quality is an important aspect (being an admitted closet audiophile) - so I would want 2 x very high quality amps, in addition to, for example a Marchand crossover or similar for the bass.

Price wise, one high quality amp, and a passive crossover is very cost-effective.


All the best,
Chris.

[speakerdave]

My experience is that the question can be a little more complicated than that. The need for compensation in the network for non-linearities in the driver response, will have to be met in some way. Very few combinations of drivers do not require this. If you have to provide it with an equalizer stage before the power amp, then you are listening to another layer of electronics besides the active crossover; both are often audible in the treble. I am using a Bryston 10B crossover and the rare and inaudible White 4004 fully passive double tuned LC eq and have found that speaker-level passive high pass with high quality parts (and charge-coupled capacitors) is clearly better. My equipment is not the be all and end all, but I have sincere doubts about inexpensive IC-based electronics added to the signal chain being neutral in a speaker with a revealing treble. Bass quality of electronics can also be an issue, of course, but generally speaking being able to remove speaker-level inductors from the bass signal path and run a woofer direct from the amp is a net plus.



It's pretty rare that any Horn/driver combo isn't gonna need some type of attenuation or boosting to match the other parts of the system. So an Lpad is okay.
I am a big believer in going multi amp setups. That way all parts can be adjusted to suit.
I have said before that doing it by ear is a more effective way rather than going by the book. With a little experience it isn't hard to set things where they sound best.
An Lpad is the most basic way of doing it but effective at the same time.
If you own more than one amp think obout bi-amping or more amping and get way better sound. Of course you need an active crossover but they can be had starting at like 80 bucks on ebay and up. 80 is low end but I've had some cheaper active xovers and they weren't too bad. A Rane is a good choice and can be bought used for a pretty good deal. IMO bi-amping with average equipment is better than a passive xover anyday.
Plus the flexibility is much greater on setting levels. Better sound ...less duty for each amp...better control over each driver.
PLUS Then NO Lpads

[yashka]

Yes, the capacitors are under the board and are sealed in some kind of epoxy. A buddy of mine has "reverse engineered" the entire design by testing the components, so I could theoretically get you the schematic (not promising this). Apparently, TAD uses only one or two capacitor values and combines them in various circuits to get the desired results.

If you are worried about the LF being 3dB too high, you could easily insert an L-Pad.

would you happen to have a schematic for any of the TAD crossovers?

[yashka]

Yes, the capacitors are under the board and are sealed in some kind of epoxy. A buddy of mine has "reverse engineered" the entire design by testing the components, so I could theoretically get you the schematic (not promising this). Apparently, TAD uses only one or two capacitor values and combines them in various circuits to get the desired results.

If you are worried about the LF being 3dB too high, you could easily insert an L-Pad.

would you happen to have a schismatic for any of the TAD crossovers?
thank you

[Ian Mackenzie]

Put an L pad on the horn.

The difference in sensitivity is more like +6db with 2 parrellel woofers into 4 ohms.

There is a guy in CA who regularly sells off NOS Tad gear on EBay so he might know more about it.

I have reveres engineered the network in SoundEasy but sadly the cloning of a Tad horn did not come to pass so I cannot report on any test results.

It's a 6th order brick wall low pass network not unlike an ellipitical filter. The high pass is 12 db with a tank circuit to notch out a bump in the response of the horn.

The L inductors are quite specific values and highly optimised so it's not something that could be assembled with diy parts very easily.

I would not get too hung up on using these networks.

I mean it would be cheaper to buy a crown amp with an in built active filter and sort it out that way.

Just crank down the horn withan L pad.

[Odd]

Some info

[yashka]

Yes, the capacitors are under the board and are sealed in some kind of epoxy. A buddy of mine has "reverse engineered" the entire design by testing the components, so I could theoretically get you the schematic (not promising this). Apparently, TAD uses only one or two capacitor values and combines them in various circuits to get the desired results.

If you are worried about the LF being 3dB too high, you could easily insert an L-Pad.

Do you happen to have a schematics for any of TAD's crossovers?
thank you

[pos]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

[Radley]

Reading through this interesting thread it looks like the factory crossover is the same for single woofer/ double woofers? I am not an acoustician in any way, but a few other companies have done 3 way loudspeakers with double woofers off of a single two way x-over (Meyer & Community). It's (somehow) the loading in the cabinet that makes these designs into what they call a quasi-3 way. So it's the cabinet not the crossover that makes it a three way.

Note that the graphic in #21 shows both drivers to be the same in the dual configuration.

L-Pads in my experience have a habit of catching on fire.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Yeah but the woofer has a very steep crossover 36 db with high Q do is moot if it's single or dual woofer below 650 hertz.

The horn in the other hand is relatively gentle crossover of 12 db per octave do is still heard as a point source on the mid and highs

[dubkarma]

I'm way late to the party. Just wanted to note that the "basic input/output connections diagram" that came with my TN-4 does not list a single LF driver as an option. The chart gives info on the "HF" section and the "LF (dual parallel)" section. Nothing about a single LF driver option.

Whether that means there's more than one iteration of the TN-4, I don't know.

[Dr.db]

Does anyone know which speaker modell has used the TN-4 crossover from factory?
As far as I know, all TAD-monitors crossover at 650hz, but the TN-4 has it´s crossover at 800hz...

[dn92]

Very simple question :)

This was used in PA TAD loudspeakers TCM-1822 and TCM-1622
https://qa.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Professional/Pro-Speakers/TCM-1821
https://qa.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Professional/Pro-Speakers/TCM-1621|1622

Unlike one version of its manual, TN-4 is only for the use of two LF units in parallel. The HF section is for use with TH-4371 Horn, and has no EQ cell.
Do not use TN-4 for loudspeakers like Exclusive 2401 or 2402 or with ARAI290 horn it isn't made for this.

[Dr.db]

Great info, thanks!

I was interested in the lowpass section for the woofers... ;)
Do you know the value of the inductors?

[dn92]

I tried to do some measurements and as the TN-4 wasn't mine I was not able to remove components from the circuit. It is on a piece of paper that I've to find, but I remember it was more or less a 650/800 ratio from TN-1 LF.
This network has a role with its group delay in time alignment with the TD-4002z on TH-4371. The chosen frequency corresponds to what was needed.
Is it for a dual woofer system ?

[Dr.db]

I understand... ;)
Thanks a lot for your help!