The M9500 Thread

[Guido]

Dear Forum Members,
as you may know I'm a JBL maniac in the last and most serious phase of the disease :-)
Although my 4313B and my 4435 are still into cabinet production while the drivers are waiting on the shelve it came to my mind that the M9500 would be a nice thing to play with.
Call me crazy and you are right. For those who think I have enough of this JBL stuff I can only state that I'll never have enough of this gorgeous stuff :-)

To buy a pair of M9500 is almost impossible what we all know. To build them should be possible. A lot of information is digged inside this forum and I want to dig it out and expand it here in this thread. I hope for your input as many things are still unclear.

Network
The network schematic is available somewhere here in the forum
It should be no problem for an advanced DIY to copy them

Missing information network
DCR of 3,0/1,5/1,0/4,2/0,6 mH inductors
Type PP or PS of the bypass caps


Cabinet
The cabinet information is digged in the user manual which is available somewhere here in the forum
Upper LF enclosure 78l, 35 Hz tuning (2,8 cuft)
Lower LF enclosure 115l, 28 Hz tuning (4,1 cuft)

Missing information cabinet
Port size and duct (could be calculated but one should better stay original)
Dimension of cabinets and position of drivers and ports (this could be calculated from pictures)


Components / Drivers
So this is the most tedious part of the game. Collecting the transducers. But maybe it is not that difficult?

1400ND
Somewhere here I remember a thread (couldn't find) that is quoting GT saying that the only significant difference between 1400Pro and 1400ND is that the Pro version uses a cloth surround where the ND version uses a foam surround. There are a lot of 1400pro's out there right?
Reverse said this means one can use
1) an 1400Pro and resurround it with foam surrounds to get a 1400ND
2) an 1400Pro and recone it as 1400ND to get a 1400ND

475ND
Well there are some threads dealing with the 475ND and 2450 / 2451 similarities and Giskard recently announced a comparison sheet. Of course the 2450 is not the same drivers but I'm convinced that the 2450 with the 2450-SL (coated dia with ribs?) or 2450SL-A (coated dia w/o ribs?) can be used as substitude for the 475ND. Especially here some more input is needed.

H9500
Again the Horn. Here I see only one chance. The horn need to be purchased from JBL. If it is not available one would need very good connections inside JBL to obtain the CNC data. I've no clue if this is possible. Here we especially will need Giskard or Don.

Missing information components / drivers
Availability/price of the 1400ND
Availability/price of the C8R1400ND
Foam dimension (this can be discussed with Rick Cobb as soon as one inspects the according dimensions of the 1400 cone and basket)
Availability/price of the 475ND
Availability/price of the D8R475ND
Compatibility of 2450SL, 2450SL-A, 475ND
Availability/price of the H9500

What did I forget?
What input can you give?

[Earl K]

Hi Guido,

I'm not sure how realistic it is to expect the necessary help "from within" to build a current K2 product out of scavenged parts.

I do applaud the idea of building an MTM design - I'd just recommend sticking with available parts , like the ME150H ( for 15 inchers ) or LE120 ( 12" - if someone ever chimes in about this speakers salient features ). Both of these transducers are available from Harman.

That said - making up a 1400nd would be possible, though expensive, in the end. If you went the route of getting 1400 Pro and "refoaming" you'd still have to concoct your own version of Aquaplas to add more weight to the cone. You'd need a means of applying it in a metered out mass. It's anyones guess as to how much to apply. I'd guess 30 to 40 grams. If a person can't measure Fs and determine Ts parameters - then this is a route to avoid. Reconing 1400Pros to Nds would be a lot more straight-forward, though costly.

Rediaphragmingsome large format drivers with 2450SL diaphragms is pretty routine. IMO, A twelve inch based MTM would be better balanced to the newer 3" diaphragm compression drivers - though getting the right aquaplassed diaphragms might be a problem .

H9500 Horn; Maybe Harman will sell H9500 horns. I did track a pair of MDF H9500 clones that sold on eBay - a year and a half ago for ( $1260.00). The maker was Canadian and the buyer was from Taiwan. In fact , the buyer looked to be the people from Usher electronics. Ushers' D-2 speaker was released without any apparent influence from that horns design. So maybe they'd sell the horns ( if they have them ). Usher is here (http://www.usheraudio.com/)
A comparable horn wouldn't be impossible to design from scratch for the observant woodworker .

Earl K

[Mr. Widget]

There is a typically silent San Francisco Bay Area member of the forum who owns the K2 version of this speaker. He may decide to chime in here and offer his opinions. He has offered to let me come by and measure his H9500 horn for cloning purposes. I haven't been too interested in doing so as there are so many horns and so little time. It is also a bit of a PITA to do and I have been pursuing other directions.

If you are hell bent on creating these speakers I would keep an eye toward eBay and accumulate the drivers. I believe they have all been on there at one time or another. Once they are procured, the rest can be dealt with. If you really are after the M9500, you shouldn't substitute drivers. An MTM with different drivers is simply a different MTM. The drivers, network and cabinet tuning are what makes the speaker.

Widget

[Niklas Nord]

I think it would be better to aim at building the s9500 instead
and a pair of separate subs and cross these with the s9500
@ 60 or 80hz. Corner placed subs will lower distorsion on the
s9500, a big improvement to spare the s9500 1400nd drivers
from handling the lowest hertz.

I´m crossing my s9500 @ 60hz to one SUB1500 that is corner
placed behind the s9500.

I would try something else perhaps, using a 2450, 2446 or 2451
driver with either two 2226, 2227, 2242, 2206 or 1400nd and
have these play from 80hz and cross these some higher than
the original s9500, maybe 750hz with a digital crossover.

[Guido]

Thanks for all the input until now!

Earl, thanks for reminding me to the additional mass of appr. 40gr. I did not think about this. IF I'll get the 4 1400Pros I'm after I will try a massring + Foam edges.

Widget, thanks for offering help with the Horn. I'll try it first in Europe (Niklas?) but will come back to if neccessary.

Niklas I will need your support for the horn contour templates and some sketches.

What really surprises me is the respect that everyone has for JBLs copyrights.
What I build for my own purpose is my thing as long as I do not make money with it. Especially when JBL only sells the K2s from time to time only and if they do I need to be king of zamunda to be important enough to get them.

I'm trying to get 2 Precision Directivity Waveguides from them since 6 month and they claim not to have them! What the heck do they screw in the PD speakers? Why the heck they have them in the horn list? JBLs arrogance can be annoying!

Nobody can stop me from cloning a H9500 Horn which can't be sooo dificult with the help from a K2 Owner. Look at the K2 plant pictures and you can see that they make it from 2 partial discs and MDF sidewalls. Once one have the contour of the disk its easy to CNC!

My cabinet builder will be pleased to produce the cabinets and that's it.

It will last month's to do them but it is a nice thing to think about while listening to my 4343s :D

[Earl K]

Hi Guido


IF I'll get the 4 1400Pros I'm after I will try a massring + Foam edges.


I suspect that using mass rings might be too "excursion limiting" for these newer K2 transducers - but I don't know, that's just a hunch. And after listening to these ME150s with their aquaplas on the cone , I wouldn't want to go back to a big cone without it. I like it on the le14, the le10, and 2450SL . It makes voicing a speaker a lot easier when it's present.

Regarding Copyrights:
Some people here have close ties to JBL and can't be expected to jeapordize their relationship to that company by being seen to facilitate copies of existing products. If JBL is willing to sell the parts through them - then it's a win - win situation for everyone . I'm a retail user only - that's why I'll offer ideas and hints of similar products..

I also like Niklas idea of committing to using a sub with the smaller S9500. That makes a lot of sense. No one I've been aware of has ever thought of these 1400nd(s) as subwoof capable - I've heard quite the opposite .

regards <> Earl K

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Earl K

I also like Niklas idea of committing to using a sub with the smaller S9500. That makes a lot of sense. No one I've been aware of has ever thought of these 1400nd(s) as subwoof capable - I've heard quite the opposite .

I'll second that. Or would that be to third that, (thrice?) In any event, the more I play around with this stuff the more I think to get a system with clarity, speed (transient response), and extension, the best way, whether using a 1400ND, 1500AL, or any other large woofer is to go the sub woofer route. The 4343 and 4345 aren't exactly using a sub, but they are heading in that direction and I find using a woofer to 50-60Hz and crossing to a true sub is the best solution I have found to date.

Widget

[Hofmannhp]

Originally posted by Guido , (edited by HP)
.... Look at the K2 plant pictures and you can see that they make it from 2 partial discs and MDF sidewalls. Once one have the contour of the disk its easy to CNC!
.......


Hi Guido,

it seems that your virus is a lot more resitent than mine.....

here's the "old" idea for the horn:
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1843

let me please know what's going on

HP

[Hofmannhp]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget
...... Or would that be to third that, (thrice?) ........
Widget

thrice.......

this forum is the best education .......never saw this before
:rolleyes:

HP

[Mr. Widget]

Well that was a joke pointed at Senator John Kerry. In a failed effort to seem more like a real person he used that term discussing the fact that he had been wounded in action three times. Unfortunately for him, the reason you hadn't heard the term before is that we don't use the word in "normal" speech. It currently resides primarily in the lexicon of pretentious words.

Of course if the "W" has his way we will all say nucular instead of the proper and common nuclear.

Widget

[4313B]

Kerry? Bush? The talent pool must be bankrupt!

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Giskard
Kerry? Bush? The talent pool must be bankrupt!

It has become a fool's job... so that's what we get.
Some are just more benign.

Widget

[Niklas Nord]

So, what drivers to use then?

[4313B]

:rotfl:

The ones Guido posted?

I'd like to see something done with dual LE14H-1's too.

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Giskard

I'd like to see something done with dual LE14H-1's too.

I don't have personal experience with them, but I was under the impression that the LE14H and LE14H-1 were not really recommended above about 500Hz due to their heavily aquaplas treated cones.

Have you tried them up to 650Hz? I have noticed a marked improvement in the upper bass and lower midrange of the 1500AL over the 2235H in a system where I am crossing over around 600-650Hz. I realize these are very different woofers, but I would expect the 2235H is even better in this range than the LE14s.

Widget

[Earl K]

Hi Mr. Widget

I have noticed a marked improvement in the upper bass and lower midrange of the 1500AL over the 2235H in a system where I am crossing over around 600-650Hz.

I notice similar subjective results using the ME150 with its' 1/2" deep gap when compared to a 2235h or even a 2225h. A 2220a with a 2225h cone kit is somewhat in the middle - for transient response. ( I have a pair that I may "foam" into 223?? to lower the Fs ) .

I don't want to bury the le14 series at all. I dearly love these woofers . They are quite special. A few weeks ago, here at the forum on a similar topic ( I forget which thread ), I read my own older words about the upper mid response of the le14 being - "dead like cardboard ". As I stated, this prompted me to use an le10 over the horn in my MTM arrangement . I still stand by those words/practice but I feel the words/emotion I used was over stated. Recently, I've listened to one of my le14a woofs fullrange - my immediate impression was : "What a nice sound, with a really nice controlled response ". I did the same ( full-range) test on the ME150H for A/B purposes - the le14a won hands down . The recently posted response graph in the LE14H-1 Freq. Range (thread ) (http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1426) might give the opposite impression for the le14h. I have a pair so I guess I should give them a listen to see if they are markedly different from older le14a(s) .
What's all this mean ? I don't know, maybe a person just needs to follow his own instincts/ears and damn the torpedoes ???

<> Earl K

[4313B]

Originally posted by Mr. Widget
I don't have personal experience with them, but I was under the impression that the LE14H and LE14H-1 were not really recommended above about 500Hz due to their heavily aquaplas treated cones.

Have you tried them up to 650Hz? I have noticed a marked improvement in the upper bass and lower midrange of the 1500AL over the 2235H in a system where I am crossing over around 600-650Hz. I realize these are very different woofers, but I would expect the 2235H is even better in this range than the LE14s.

Widget I'm running them in my second pair of 240Ti's and they sound decent enough. You might be right though Mr. Widget but I'd still be curious. Unfortunately I'm not curious enough to try anything personally with my four LE14H-1's right now. :p Too many other irons in the fire!

The LE14H-1 has a Bl of 22 T*m and a moving mass of 145 grams while the 2235H has a Bl of 20.5 T*m and a moving mass of 155 grams.

[4313B]

Originally posted by Earl K
I have a pair so I guess I should give them a listen to see if they are markedly different from older le14a(s) .
I'd like to hear your opinion.

I once participated in an A/B of L220's loaded with LE14A's and L220's loaded with LE14H's.

[Earl K]

Originally posted by Giskard
I'd like to hear your opinion.

I once participated in an A/B of L220's loaded with LE14A's and L220's loaded with LE14H's.

Okay,, sometime this week I'll do an A/B of the two .

I do remember my last listening impression of the le14h ( this is 3/4 of a year old ) was that it was sounding really constrained in the C53? "Libra" box it was loaded in. Mostly I remember that its' transient response in the bass area was noticably stronger. It "kicked" while the le14a sort of "woofed". I was playing around with different Fs figures back then - so I thought that might be a contributing factor. But still, I always find that ferrite magnets "out-kick" alnicos - though I have no way of knowing if my alnico magnets are up to spec .

<> Earl K

[Earl K]

Originally posted by Giskard
I'd like to hear your opinion.

Yep, just as I stated above , the LF transients from the le14h walk away from the le14a. The le14h "kicks" faster and harder than the le14a. Sensitivities are about identical up to 1K, then this le14a starts a slow roll-off , with a curve somewhere 1/2 way between the posted le14h-1 and the le14h . This le14h example shows a 4.5 db spike at around 1600 hz ( similar to the posted response graph for the le14h ).
Overall my le14h(s) have more top-end info than my le14a(s) .

<. Earl K

[Guido]

Hello Niklas!

Could you please check your PM

[ngccglp]

Hi,

Does anyone know the name of the cables supplied and used between the M9500 and the external network M9500X?

Also, the bi wire connectors of the M9500X.

Are they still available? Are they anything special?

Thanks.

[bubbleboy76]

Does anyone know the crossover points and slopes of this speaker? A graph of the acoustical target curves per driver/element would be nice to see. Or the voltage drive of the crossover networks.