Horns and woofer for 2435 in HT setup

[baldrick]

I'm about to build a new setup for my hometheater and the HF driver will probably be a 2435 and subwoofers are 4x2242.

Two horns I can get is 2352:

http://www.sesystems.com/Assets/ProductImages/JBL_2352_Horn.jpg

And the other one is Autotech e-os15:

http://horns.pl/images_old/horns/e-oswg-15.jpg

I probaly can get PT waveguides as well, and a fourth alternative could be H9800 clones and maybe there are others as well..

For bass I'm thinking maybe 2227 or 2206, or is there any better alternatives?

Any inputs on what I should do?

[grumpy]

2352 can be a very pleasant sounding horn... I've not heard the Autotech.

At one point I had 2435 drivers on the 2352 horns, but I found the larger
format drivers (e.g., 2450SL) with Be diaphragms to be easier to work with.

[pos]

H9800 seems to be the best choice for 2435/435 drivers.
PT waveguides don't play well with these drivers, and same goes for 2332 horns.
Don't know for the 2352 or OSWG though, but in doubt I would stick with the H9800.

[Robh3606]

PT waveguides don't play well with these drivers, and same goes for 2332 horns.


I can't agree with that. I have PTH1010's and Array Horns in the same room and at least that PT is just fine. The rest I couldn't say. The key however is to be able to take your own measurements and go from there. You cannot depend on someone elses. I have 3 pairs of 2435's that I pair matched and re-did the ferro fluid in. There is enough variation in the used drivers available that simply purchasing a pair and using a crossover off the internet is not a guarantee for success. On the worst case pairs I did individual crossovers for each driver to get a matched pair.


The pair I used in my Array clones were cherry picked over the range where the 435Al driver is used in the 1400. They match extremely well until about 8K or so where the 045 Be takes over.

Rob:)

[baldrick]

H9800 is my preferred alternative but it deepends on finding someone to make them.

Guido's BLS horn looks very good but are some kind of expensive but I think they might be worth it:

http://www.behringer-electric.de/images/stories/behringer/news/BLS Horn/Top Front (Large).JPG

But what about woofers for this setup, any input what too choose?

I'm thinking either single 12 or 15 or dual 8 or 10.

Some ideas:
2x2118
2x127
2x2251
1x2206
1x2227

[cooky1257]

Me150h.

[baldrick]

Is the ME150 really that much better than 2227 when used with subwoofers? ME150 is hard to find but 2227 is obtainable.

[pos]

I can't agree with that. I have PTH1010's and Array Horns in the same room and at least that PT is just fine.
Yes sorry, I should have said PT-F95HF specifically. It looks like the longer the horn the better it plays with the phasing plug of the 2435.

[Guido]

Me150h.

YES for sure! :yes:

THE alternative if you can't find 1500FE or 1500AL

[baldrick]

YES for sure! :yes:

THE alternative if you can't find 1500FE or 1500AL

Even if you don't need output below i.e. 80hz?

And too quote myself:

Is the ME150 really that much better than 2227 when used with subwoofers?

[Guido]

Is the ME150 really that much better than 2227 when used with subwoofers?

The 2227 is a Mid-Bass Driver for PA. It is efficient as hell.
The ME150 sounds good, very good.
The core is the same, the cones are COMPLETELY different

Ask cooky, he uses them.

[baldrick]

I have no doubt ME150 is very good, it's just that they are hard to find. The only place I know where to get them is in Germany, and even there I think it's hard to find a trio ;)

I can get 2227 locally for 1/3 the price... but if ME150 recone is still available that might be an alternative.

What about 2x2251 like SK2-1000?

57056

[4313B]

H9800 seems to be the best choice for 2435/435 drivers.
PT waveguides don't play well with these drivers, and same goes for 2332 horns.
Don't know for the 2352 or OSWG though, but in doubt I would stick with the H9800.


I can't agree with that. I have PTH1010's and Array Horns in the same room and at least that PT is just fine. The rest I couldn't say. The key however is to be able to take your own measurements and go from there. You cannot depend on someone elses. I have 3 pairs of 2435's that I pair matched and re-did the ferro fluid in. There is enough variation in the used drivers available that simply purchasing a pair and using a crossover off the internet is not a guarantee for success. On the worst case pairs I did individual crossovers for each driver to get a matched pair.


Yes sorry, I should have said PT-F95HF specifically. It looks like the longer the horn the better it plays with the phasing plug of the 2435.The 435Be/2435 sports a phasing plug that can create a dip around 14 kHz on various horns at varying distances to varying degrees. This is why JBL added in the 045 on the K2-S9800. No one would be able to handle the horrific trauma associated with looking at a graph of an unassisted 435/2435. They would either die on the spot or suffer severe long term disabilities.

If one can ignore the graphs then they should be good to go. It is a very nice sounding driver, even without the 045.


Even if you don't need output below i.e. 80hz?

And too quote myself:

Is the ME150 really that much better than 2227 when used with subwoofers?If you go with the twelve inch waveguides then you are technically locked into a twelve inch low frequency transducer which makes it really easy to choose the 2206H or unobtainable 1200FE. I think TAD has a good twelve too. The waveguide crossover frequency is ~ 1.3 kHz.
What about 2x2251 like SK2-1000?Completely unnecessary complication of things. Like the SAM2LF, the SK2-1000 is a turnkey solution that isn't necessarily the best use of disposable income. A 2206H would kick the crap out of those dual tens, it just wouldn't look as neato doing it. Seriously.

[baldrick]

Thank you for input 4313B, seems like 2206 might be an good alternative for me!

I thought that 2352 was bolt on, but a friend checked today and the boltholes doesn't seem to fit 2435, nor does the original 2509 mounting brackets :( It can be modified ofcourse don't know if that's an smart thing to do?

[yggdrasil]

If you go for a wave guide - remember they have cutoff ~1000Hz due to 1.5" throat. This dictates a woofer/midbass that play nice up to at least 1.5KHz, which again is easier to find in a 12" than a 15".

Johnny

[4313B]

If you go for a wave guide - remember they have cutoff ~1000Hz due to 1.5" throat.Another way to put it is that the waveguide only offers pattern control at a certain frequency and above (to the point where the apature of the compression driver becomes larger in diameter than the frequency wavelength).

The lower frequency corresponds to the width of the waveguide, or diameter in the case of a round waveguide. The upper frequency corresponds to the apature size of the compression driver. For a JBL 12" x 12" PT waveguide with 1.5" throat the lower frequency is ~ 1.3 kHz and the upper frequency is ~ 9 kHz.

In the case of the JBL 6.5" x 12" PT waveguides pattern control in the vertical plane is lost below ~ 2.7 kHz (I'm just tossing that number out there as I don't have a correct vertical measurement available to me at the moment, so figure a frequency higher than a 6.5" wavelength but close) and that's the trade off for the "half height" waveguides for their compactness.

Naturally it is all more complex than that but that's the gist of it.


Waveguides also benefit from correct termination to mitigate diffraction and if you suffer from HOM as per Earl Geddes then use some foam. JBL used foam on lots of systems, albeit, to mitigate diffraction. And sound quality is directly related to the quality of the compression driver. There is no complex horn signature in the mix.

[baldrick]

I'm trying to get someone local to make H9800 clones for me, otherwise I think I start with 2352 and see how it sounds.

Not sure what to do with woofers though but I'm leaning to 2206, other alternatives are 2227 or maybe LE14-3.

[Jakob]

Hi Baldrick,

I use a setup similar to what you are planning. I've had 2435's on H9800-clones, 2450's on 2482's and stereo-labs Tractrix', 2451's on H9800's clones and PT waveguides. I've had LE14H-1's, E145's, 2227's and ME150H's mated to the CD's. The only consistent thing through my endeavour has been my 4x2243 woofers AND a hard time getting the various crossovers right.

Be prepared for a fantastic journey but don't expect a turn key solution when not building an existing design. All the drivers we have mentioned are all very good ones and can be a part of a great sounding speaker. However, the networks are equally or even more important. Not being an expert on crossover design, I've read the various threads on this forum with similar setups as my own. However, I never felt that I found a crossover that worked good enough with my speakers. I must also admit that my reference are my 250ti's.

Finally, about 10 years from the beginning, I'm satisfied. I ended up using the 2451's with SL dias on the small rectangular waveguides, ME150H's, the 2243's and a BSS 366T which does all the crossovers and some EQ.

The ME150 is more HiFi than the 2227 IMO. To me and in my setup, the 2227 was too articulate. It was really nice in the beginning to hear a hair pin being dropped in the studio, but I soon discovered I was analyzing all my records instead of enjoying them... Too much "in your face" for me.

The H9800-clones sounded good and looks great but because I'm not using a tweeter above 9K, I found the PT's a lot easier to work with and get good results. The PT's doesn't sound "horn" at all, they sound open and mate very well with the 15". I have tried various crossover frequencies but between 850-1000Hz with an NTM 36 slope sound the best to me.

What are your thoughts about crossovers?

[baldrick]

Thanx for input! Seems like you also have had a P771/749 system and use these compoents for hifi... If I'm going for the 2227 I will also get some 2243, 2451 :) The 2243 is very nice but I do prefer the 2242.

It's hard to find a trio of ME150 so if I'm going to for that alternative I guess the only was is to buy 2227 and recone them, and that is IF ME150 kits are still available. 2227 or 2206 will of course be a much cheaper alternative for me...

PT horns are hard to find used, the distributor here thinks they can get them but don't know for sure. Is there no alternative waveguides from other brands that might be suitable? Autotech is the only alternative I've found...

I'm going to use some kind of DSP for x-over and very likely I'm going to use MiniDSP (http://www.minidsp.com/onlinestore/detail/17-plate-amplifiers/flypage/72-pwr-dsp3?sef=hcfp) plateamps with builtin DSP. I have some other MiniDSP DSPs in my current system and think they are OK and do sound quite good. Funny you should mention that BSS, because I also have a similar DSP/XO, THS SG-01 (it's the same unit as minidrive 336 but with custom/different SW) but I do prefer the MiniDSP, it just sounds better.

[pos]

If you are looking for DSP plate amps you should consider the Hypex PSC2-400D.

[baldrick]

Been there done that, and unfortunately those Hypex are not too good, but OK for the money.

They use the simplest version of Hypex amps and the DSP is noisy. A friend had that amp on Beyma TPL150H and even though it's only 102db/1w there were way too much noise.

What I know about MiniDSP is that they use Pascal amp modules that are supposed to be very good (Camco uses some of them in their amps) and that MiniDSP DSPs works pretty well.

[4313B]

Those miniDSP amps are a grand a pop aren't they?


MiniDSP DSPs works pretty wellPretty well??? For $125 it better be downright killer! :rotfl:

I downloaded three software modules last week. I'm just waiting for the actual unit to show up now.

***

I just followed your link... US$1299

I'd really have to hear them before buying a couple or three.


The PT's doesn't sound "horn" at all, they sound open and mate very well with the 15". I have tried various crossover frequencies but between 850-1000Hz with an NTM 36 slope sound the best to me.

What are your thoughts about crossovers?That's way too low for a 12" waveguide. 18" waveguide for a crossover point of 850 Hz (~ 16" actual width or diameter).

Of course, if you are satisfied with it as is, then that's your choice. I know there are an awful lot of systems out there that fall apart under theoretical examination and yet people enjoy them anyway. Well, at least until they start tweaking again. :p

[baldrick]

Those miniDSP amps are a grand a pop aren't they?


Yes they are, but I'm probably going for the $1300 3-channel version (2x700 + 1x2700 watt) and use the 2.7kw for a pair of 2242.


Pretty well??? For $125 it better be downright killer! :rotfl:


I have 3x"MiniDSP in a box" today with my 3-way EAW speakers and I like them but I would prefer the ballanced version with higher output. The plateamps are ballanced and I hope it will be a great combination.

[4313B]

Yes they are, but I'm probably going for the $1300 3-channel version (2x700 + 1x2700 watt) and use the 2.7kw for a pair of 2242.



I have 3x"MiniDSP in a box" today with my 3-way EAW speakers and I like them but I would prefer the ballanced version with higher output. The plateamps are ballanced and I hope it will be a great combination.Ah! Ok. :)

Well, let us know what you think about the 3-channel version. That sounds very interesting.

[pos]

Been there done that, and unfortunately those Hypex are not too good, but OK for the money.

They use the simplest version of Hypex amps and the DSP is noisy. A friend had that amp on Beyma TPL150H and even though it's only 102db/1w there were way too much noise.

What I know about MiniDSP is that they use Pascal amp modules that are supposed to be very good (Camco uses some of them in their amps) and that MiniDSP DSPs works pretty well.

The DSP is noisy indeed, but the recent version of the PSC2 have a -10dB gain setting to use with compression drivers.
You still need to add a LPad (or better yet, an autoformer) to get a really low noise floor though...

That said, I know of no amp (especially class D) that give you the type of low output noise that is required for compression drivers: you always need to pad them down somehow...

The UCD version embarked in their plate amps are OEM versions, and are very good according to the specs.
The AS2-100 even has the last version of the UCD180, with some of the improvements gathered from the ncore development.

[spkrman57]

That said, I know of no amp (especially class D) that give you the type of low output noise that is required for compression drivers

That's why I use Single Ended Triode tube amps for my compression drivers. They sound softer to me also!

Ron

[Hans Bleeker]

I use the 2352 with a 2451sl, I tried many many horns, had for years a set of DIY 4430's, but for me the 2352 is the only horn that beats the 2344 even, OFC this is TOTALY subjective, but I never had a visitor that didn't liked the musicality of that 2352. I use a 2405 on top of it btw.

[baldrick]

Have anyone tried the JBL 2384 horn on 2435?

It's the horn on top of these:

57725

I currently use jbl pt-h1010 but would like to try something else that might give better LF.

As midbass I currently use 2227 in U-baffles

[grumpy]

P/N: 365359-001 ? (4722 top) ... last I inquired they weren't all that expensive.
One of the last things Zilch and I chatted about (he was trying them at odd angles
and with cloth to create an asymmetric sound field, ala DD55000 Everest).

I need to re-inquire about getting three, as I lost that thread about 1.5 years ago
(my intended use being more HT than 2ch). If/when I get these, I'd be happy to
run some listening and measurement tests... just don't hold your breath :)

[Robh3606]

P/N: 365359-001 ? (4722 top) ... last I inquired they weren't all that expensive.
One of the last things Zilch and I chatted about

They are not in the end of Quick and Dirty??

Rob:)

[grumpy]

Searching back (ugh) I found most of what I recall in a thread named "Screen Array", but these conversations
go all over the place, and probably spilled over into AK (where I've only rarely haunted). There were some
CLIO measurements though, so those so inclined can go find them.

[pos]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23546-Screen-Array

[baldrick]

Thanx!

The reason for asking is that I might be able to get three of them from a 4722 system :)

[baldrick]

Is there any sugested EQ settings for 2435 used without tweeter?

Is PT-H1010 an OK waveguide for these or will I get much better results with another horn? I'm not completly satisfied with the result but don't know if it's because of the driver, horn or EQ settings :)

[pos]

You need a "deep" horn to get rid of the phase plug issues of the 2435 above 10khz.
The H9800 is the only horn I have tested that really work well with the 2435 in the UHF, but you can get good results with shallower horns (PT waveguides) and some EQ. Do not try to completly compensate du on axis dip though, as its frequency will change on other axis and you will get desapointing results.

Can you post measuremenbts of your current setup, as well as your EQ settings?

[baldrick]

Right now I'm useing 2447 in 2352 horns, but want to give the 2435 a try again.

The PT waveguide is really shallow so for what you are saying maybe that's the reason for the lack of UHF? Maybe I should make an adapter to fit the 2435 in 2352 instead?

[pos]

Stick SL diaphragms in your 2447 (or ask Guido to add aquaplas to the ones you have) and call it done!
In my subjective tests I found the 4" SL diaphragmed drivers better than the 2435, but your mileage may vary.
Of course sticking truextent Be diaphragms in them would be even better :) (but require a little bit more EQ up high than the SL diaphragms)

[4313B]

+1

[baldrick]

My 2435 are plassed... but maybe 2447 SL or BE is still better solution?

[pos]

Truextent Be: yes, definitly (IMHO)
SL Ti: you would have to try to judge, but it will already give you more extension up high than the 2435 (with or without aquaplas), smoother, and with a better behavior off axis.

[baldrick]

Ok, I'll try and find some plassed TIs for my 2447 and give it a try :)

[subwoof]

Got your message - can't check the shop until late weekend but I think there are some there.

Yeah - for various reasons the 4" coil drivers are easier to tame/push/play with without extensive network filters as evidenced by the JBL install boxes that use the 3" models...however I really haven't had time to A-B them in a controlled setting yet.
sub

[JuniorJBL]

Has anyone Aquaplased the ribbed Ti domes? What was the outcome?

[subwoof]

JBL pro did for the HLA series ( and 4496 monitor ) and via consumer - the last gen of the original K2

sub

[baldrick]

Got your message - can't check the shop until late weekend but I think there are some there.


looking forward for your answer :)

[Mostlydiy]

P/N: 365359-001 ? (4722 top) ... last I inquired they weren't all that expensive.
One of the last things Zilch and I chatted about (he was trying them at odd angles
and with cloth to create an asymmetric sound field, ala DD55000 Everest).

I need to re-inquire about getting three, as I lost that thread about 1.5 years ago
(my intended use being more HT than 2ch). If/when I get these, I'd be happy to
run some listening and measurement tests... just don't hold your breath :)

Did you get them?

/mostly

[grumpy]

Hi /mostly,

If I try to go back down that road, it appears I'll need to source the horns another way...
shouldn't be hard, just less convenient. Drops to low priority with any obstacle, as I already
have a working/enjoyable HT.

-grumpy

[Mostlydiy]

I see, no worries. Just curious.

/Mostly