Vinyl vs. Digital

[Regis]

I have a pretty good digital setup that sounds very, very nice. While the CD player is somewhat low-end, it doesn't really matter, because I'm taking it right off the transport and running it through an Audio Alchemy jitter reducer and then a Denon DAC, with dual Burr-Brown 20 bit linear converters. Most of the recently mixed jazz compilations as well as other material has no harshness and a lot of dynamic range. Clear highs and solid bass are the rule and I've been happy with the results.


Recently, I've been somewhat surprised when listening to vinyl. I now have a whole lot of vinyl and I'm starting to listen to it with a critical ear. Some of it was mixed like crap, Van Halen is all midrange, with no bottom end or really good highs whatsoever. But the real surprise came when I was recently listening to a mint Beck, Bogart and Appice record. The cut was "Superstition" and the intro guitar literally jumped right out of the speaker! I've never heard a CD that could match that sound. The experience was reinforced last night when I previewed the very strange Yamashita, Winwood and Shrieve album "Go". The last song on side 1 had the most bizzare side effects including a gong. I was cooking up a meal listening to it and the gong caught me by surprise. I wasn't expecting it from the record, but the loud, clear sound reverberated through the room as if it was actually there! Then the cell phone started ringing and I wasn't sure whether it was the record or the phone that I was hearing. Something about vinyl that digital can't match and I know now, why there's such a following.

[Figge]

Vinyl Rules! :rockon1:

what player/pickup r u using?

[Regis]

I'm using the Sansui computerized Linear Tracking TT with the stock magnetic phono cartridge (have to go with this as there's a sensor built in the phono head to automatically go to adjacent tracks). It sounds pretty good, but it's probably not up to what most vinyl guys consider as a "good" setup

My old TT many years ago was a Technics SL-1200 with an Audio Technica AT-SL240 Shibata stylus and the cartridge alone was $240 back in 1978! Maybe I'll go back to this setup as many of the AudioAsylum Vinyl guys really bag on the Linear TT's. You oughta see the arguments against them, but then they wail about tracking arm radius's and whatnot.

Then bad goes to worse and some of these guys have tonearms set up with air bearings. They have to have an air pump going to maintain the critical gaps and the maintenance sounds absurd. The pursuit of pure sound is an endless endeavor. It's like smoking crack, one puff and then you'll always pursue that first buzz and never get there!

[Figge]

i dont need no vacum pump....yet.:)

probably nutn wrong with your TT. to bad u cant swich cartridge though, the ones u get as stock are usually not the best around, but can perform pretty well. if can change pickup try doin it.

or if u still have the sl-1200 around, dig it out and hook it up to see how u like it, that one takes allmost any pickup, and its direct-drive wich i would prefer. im actually looking to change my dual 505 to a 1200 or 1210.


and yes it can allwys be better. but u gotta draw a line somewhere....right?

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Regis
I have a pretty good digital setup ... has no harshness and a lot of dynamic range. Clear highs and solid bass are the rule and I've been happy with the results.


Recently, I've been somewhat surprised when listening to vinyl. ...the intro guitar literally jumped right out of the speaker! I've never heard a CD that could match that sound.

So often we get caught up on frequency response and issues surrounding the linearity of playback. Sure this is important, but the glory is in the details.

Image depth and other subtleties are certainly better with newer CD playback equipment and more importantly newer discs, but they absolutely can't compete with analog. I have yet to hear DVD-A in my system, but my SACD player does a fine job competing with analog as long as the disc was well mastered.

Widget

[scott fitlin]

Well recorded vinyl does in fact have dynamic jump, three dimensionality, and a naturalness, in spite of the formats numeric inferiority!

16 bit CD recordings have come a long way, in fact, but still no where close to what you can get off of a record!

SACD impresses me, natural, not synthetic sounding, and has dynamic swing!

Achieving the best a well recorded record has to offer is time and money consuming, it requires the right stuff, setup properly, and good synergy between all of your components. Digital was offered to us as plug and play, perfect sound forever! Digital audio has yet to fulfill this original promise!

In my honest opinion, CD, to date, has made it based on convenience, rather than sonic superiority! CD,s are easier to handle, its easier to setup a CD player, than critically setting up a very good turntable/tonearm/cartridge, and for the low fi and mid fi crowd, its much cheaper too!

However, with SACD, the gap is closing! The question for SACD is, will it become industry standard? Which I dont think it will!

CD,s have become a fact of life, so I use them, but I still play records, and always will!

[Regis]

Scott and Mr. Widget,
You both bring up great points.


In my honest opinion, CD, to date, has made it based on convenience, rather than sonic superiority! CD,s are easier to handle, ...

Don't forget, you have to de-static the record first (which means shutting off my TT, as the static electricity freaks out the computer and all the lights go haywire) and then you have to clean the sumbitch too! But that's become almost a calming ceremony as I take the moist discwasher brush to the spinning black surface and push the record label round-round...

[scott fitlin]

Originally posted by Regis
Scott and Mr. Widget,
You both bring up great points.



Don't forget, you have to de-static the record first (which means shutting off my TT, as the static electricity freaks out the computer and all the lights go haywire) and then you have to clean the sumbitch too! But that's become almost a calming ceremony as I take the moist discwasher brush to the spinning black surface and push the record label round-round... I actually like the preparations it takes to playback vinyl, it is a ritual! And the outcome is usually worthwhile!

My attitude, and yes, I have one, is that getting the best from vinyl is an art/science that some are REALLY good at, and some are not! Kind of like Chefs! Some people have the abilty to get phenomenal results, and somebody else tries to do the same thing, with the same gear, and produces mediocre results! But what the guys, and women ( gotta be politically correct, nah I dont, who am I bullshitting ) out of analog and vinyl records can be INCREDIBLE!

I am cooking up some new stew, too!

:D

[Charley Rummel]

Hi, guys:

My experience, or observations, has been that the quality of the mix going into the recorded product seems to be most of the issue. I have a number of recordings in both vinyl and cd; I like Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five' cd over the vinyl, and the same goes for a handful of other recordings in my collection; on the otherhand, my son's Black Sabbath 'Paranoid' cd doesn't come close to my LP of the same in terms of quality and warmth (if one can imagine good ol' Ozzy being a source of quality and warmth!:D - Ozzy, if you read this, I mean no offense :) ).

Out of all the bells, whistles, gadgets and gizmos, and out of all the different recordings I have, I think the most amazing recording I have is a reel to reel of Bob Dylan's first greatest hits album. The fidelity and dynamics are incredible!

Anyone else out there have any comments on open reel tapes?

Regards,
Charley

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by Charley Rummel

Anyone else out there have any comments on open reel tapes?

I have one commercially made 7 1/2 ips quarter track tape of the Beatles' Abbey Road album that was given to me in the 70s. While it is free from ticks and pops, it has a very poor S/N ratio and a bit of a rolled off top end. It was a bulk copy made by Capitol Records in 1969 or early 1970.

I have also been lent 15 ips half track first generation dupes that will make you cry!

Widget

[scott fitlin]

15ips and 30ips master will blow one away!

15ips tape sounds very dynamic and the bass makes the commercial pressing pale in comparison!

[speakerdave]

I know I'll never be committed enough to tweak to get the most out of vinyl. I suppose that is one reason I am so enthusiastic about SACD and really, really hope it succeeds.

My standards for hi fi are really rather mid fi:

Can I hear the music? (Answer should be Yes.)

Is it irritating? (Answer should be No).

I play vinyl because I have a bunch of records, and I continue to buy them because using them I can become familiar with the basic repertoire for pennies on the dollar. Some of these recordings I pick up for 50 cents or a dollar are astounding I can tell even on my setup (Thorens 125, Shure tone arm and cartridge). I also have a lot of Coltrane, Davis, Evans, Basie, Monk, Zappa, Beatles, Stones, Mahavishnu, Indian, Qawwali, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Janacek, Ives, Brahms, Vivaldi, Dvorak, Scriabin, Lightnin Hopkins, etc, etc, and international and modern and oddball on vinyl that I will never want to try to replace on digital. So I keep a basic vinyl kit together. But I think I will never pay $90 for a 45 rpm reissue of a classic rock or jazz LP to try and get the max from vinyl.

SACD has so much potential it makes me think about what in my digital system may be the limiting factor. Right now I know it's the fact that my LSR32's need a subwoofer if I want to hear everything that's available on a good digital recording.

David

[dancing-dave]

IMHO any really good music is usually on vinyl. On only a few instances will I buy CDs either because the recording spans beyond the length that an LP can hold, it is not available on vinyl, or (very rarely) the CD is better than the vinyl recording (The Mars Volta - De-Loused in the Comatorium is better on CD than LP, sadly)

Don't think digital is really a permanent copy either. If there was no electricity there would be no CDs. You couldn't extract sound from them without electronics. Now an LP can be played acoustically, so in my eyes it is the true permanent copy since its ability to play isn't dependant on electricity.

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by dancing-dave
If there was no electricity there would be no CDs.

Huh?
Now that is really off topic!:hmm:


Originally posted by dancing-dave
Now an LP can be played acoustically, so in my eyes it is the true permanent copy since its ability to play isn't dependant on electricity.

How would you handle the RIAA curve?

Widget

[dancing-dave]

A very well thought out horn path that would yeild the RIAA correction (anything can be done). Before I die I want to build a 100% mechanical/acoustic turntable/speaker set up that has full stereo sound. You would turn a crank to get the platter to spin and even have a pendulum system to regulate the speed.

[speakerdave]

I've got a couple slide rules.

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by dancing-dave
A very well thought out horn path that would yeild the RIAA correction (anything can be done). Before I die I want to build a 100% mechanical/acoustic turntable/speaker set up that has full stereo sound. You would turn a crank to get the platter to spin and even have a pendulum system to regulate the speed.

Send me an e-mail when you're done, I have to see, er... hear this!

... and if it is after the end of the world send me a note by carrier pigeon since your player will work long after the internet is gone. :thmbsup:

Widget

[dancing-dave]

It should be a good project. Just the kinds of idle thoughts I have. Anyhow. Analog rules, digital drools.

[Charley Rummel]

To all you single-end transformerless guys:

HA! So you thought you had the ultimate answer for pure sound!!:banana:

Hey, Dave, any concepts or plans on the drawing board yet?

Regards,
Charley

[Robh3606]

Sorry but they both suck :D To me you can get great music and sound out of either format. I still have my vinyl and plan on keeping it. I seem to get involving sound from either format and frankly don't see why people can be so polarized over it. Bottom line is the music and I will take whatever format they throw at us as long as I like the tunes.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

Rob,

I agree with you about the polarity thing, but I would say they both can suck. They both can also sound pretty darn good too.

Taking a pair of really well mastered discs, say a CD and a SACD, the difference is similar to the difference between hearing a great system in a decent room and them hearing the exact same equipment in a really great room. Depending on the music it can be pretty subtle or quite dramatic.



LPs are not really an appropriate medium to use to compare analog to digital as they are not really an accurate representation of the analog original. To create an LP there is a fair amount of dynamic range compression necessary to make it work within the limitations of that format. Frequently the music is also equalized to reduce extreme bass energy which can cause playback problems. So if you compare an LP to a CD you are comparing too dissimilar takes on the same piece of music. The LP usually still sounds "better" in terms of space, but it really isn't a proper comparison.

Widget

[dancing-dave]

Here's something like I was talking about. Cropped from here: http://www.garlic.com/~tgracyk/credenza.htm

Yes CD and vinyl have their good and bad points I must agree. I prefer vinyl when it can suit me as much as possible. Good music will shine through any medium.

[scott fitlin]

LPs are not really an appropriate medium to use to compare analog to digital as they are not really an accurate representation of the analog original. To create an LP there is a fair amount of dynamic range compression necessary to make it work within the limitations of that format. Frequently the music is also equalized to reduce extreme bass energy which can cause playback problems. So if you compare an LP to a CD you are comparing too dissimilar takes on the same piece of music. The LP usually still sounds "better" in terms of space, but it really isn't a proper comparison.

Widget


This exact subject has been the center of hot debate since the inception of digital audio and recording! Vinyl has inherent limitations, you cant fit all the bass, especially the really deep bass onto the record, limited dynamic range, surface noise, and not the ultimate in high frequency extension either!

And yet, upon listening to a well recorded piece of vinyl on a great system, or even just a good system, it seems to sound the exact opposite in spite of the formats numeric limitations! Limited dynamic range, yet vinyl seems to have dynamic swing that CD, 16 bit CD,s dont have! Limited bass but vinyl has a rounder, bigger sounding bottom. Highs cant go out to 20K, but you can get brilliant highs with good playback gear! The illusion of depth and space, and realism from a well recorded piece of vinyl makes the music sound real, very dimensional, CD,s have yet to accomplish this feat! SACD,s have it though!

I stopped believeing in the numbers years ago, because even back in the 80,s my ears just did not agree with the " scientific community "!

I know for a fact, that "I" have tried ernestly to love things they said was better, but if it didnt sound right, what could I say?

I agree that at this point in time, digital audio has come a long way, but it still isnt 100% there yet! And no numbers can tell me otherwise!



:confused:

[Robh3606]

Hey Widget

Sure the analog master tapes are the way to go but who is lucky enough to hear those?? I certainly have never had the pleasure. The Half Speed Masters were a real treat and they tried, between mastering, vinyl quality, grove spacing and time per side to address many of the issues you mention. My Half Speeds are still part of my set-up material. Can they sound good!!!

Rob:)

[scott fitlin]

Being here in NYC, and having freinds in the music buisiness helps, so I have been to many studios and heard many masters!

Even promos on open reel at 15ips, sounds great, and isnt quite the master but still good, really good!

They used to cut Acetates direct from the master to give to select DJ,s and these sounded great too, but acetates wear out so they dont last long, but the sound of the first few plays!

I have many half speed remastered albums, and they sound great, maybe not the master, but you can get great results with great sounding gear and speakers.

On my system, I even get great results with commercial retail pressings.

[Mr. Widget]

By far the best vinyl I have heard is the UHQR series produced by Mobile Fidelity. Unfortunately these albums in mint condition go for many hundreds of dollars on eBay and the offerings are limited. Most of the selections are worthy though. A factory sealed Dark Side of the Moon will go for $750 to $1000.

Widget

[dancing-dave]

I have the Beatles White Album on MFSL. Verrrrrry dynamic and very fun to listen to.

[Mr. Widget]

MFSL or MFSL UHQR in the half inch thick black box?

[dancing-dave]

MFSL BMF limited edition hand numbered in a 0.74999" titanium alloy case. The vinyl is 300g carbide pressed in a small Japanese village only accessible by bicycle.

It says: "MFSL 2-072" on the sleeve" which is all I know about it.

[Mr. Widget]

Originally posted by dancing-dave
MFSL BMF limited edition hand numbered in a 0.74999" titanium alloy case. The vinyl is 300g carbide pressed in a small Japanese village only accessible by bicycle.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

The MFSL 2-072 wasn't a UHQR. Just your basic half speed mastered album from 1982. I did some checking and the White Album wasn't offered in a UHQR version.

If you ever run across one you should grab it they are really the closest thing to a master tape you will ever see.

Widget

[dancing-dave]

Roger that. Oh why do I post so late at night/early in the morning?

I had my last vinyl-spree in Detroit with a bunch of techno records and house re-releases. Many artists in Detroit have their records mastered by veteran engineer Ron Murphy. He's a real treasure there and works with the artists by bringing the best from their music to the plates.