L-110 s, why are not these more popular?

[maggnepan]

I am curious as to why a lot of people do not like thes speakers, is it because it was the replacement for the L-100s and there is just general hatred toward the newcomer?
I am as we speak, listening to a pair of them on stands with a m k passive 70hz crossover to a bass energizer from the L212 system and i have to say that the sound is very good. real dynamics and clarity. I run the controls flat and the speakers sound like one sound source and really have fast transient response. I also have L-100s and actually prefer the little replacement L-110s to them in most ways, at least in the mid and treble. I finally got these restore about 2 mo ago and have been stunned at how detailed they sound and are able to pinpoint all the instruments better than the L-100s. I have other speakers but have not felt a need to swap out the L-110s for any other just now...they are that good with good electronics......anyway, I phoned a friend that runs a used audio store and he turned up his nose at them , but offered me cash for the L-100s on the spot and I am offended since they sound so much better and were engineered by JBL to be a better monitor....so whats up?

[Alex Lancaster]

Magg:

What happens is the L100's are popular now, they are a piece of S***, but they are a "classic", and in their time, they made a lot of bang for the $.

Anyway, I love Oregon, do You know of Hillsboro?.

[4313B]

The really short answer is - Ignorance. Not a bad thing really since it leads to bliss, it's just the way things are.

The "twelves" (and "fifteens") were always popular systems with Sales and Marketing. One way to look at it is that their sales funded the R&D for the systems the engineers wanted to build. As one JBL Engineer has stated on a few occassions, "The 10-inch 3-way systems always behaved very well", and the statement is made with fondness.

The L110 got rave reviews when it first hit the streets and many of the "audiophiles" in the Industry took note. Unfortunately it was still a "JBL" and that, along with the L100 legacy, stiffled any real interest from the higher end crowd. So, a loudspeaker with truly great performance for the time unable to sway the higher end crowd and unable to take the merciless punishment of the lower end crowd (L100's worked quite well at frat parties, L110's not so well).

The JBL L110A was the first JBL loudspeaker to employ the now standard "bypass" capacitors. It also employed the use of conjugate filters for the three transducers. The crossover topology was also used in the L150, L212, and L250. It could be considered the first time JBL put as much effort into filter design as they did into their exemplary transducers.

[maggnepan]

thanks folks for the encouraging words, I guess I am not just thinking how good they sound, others think so also...Yes alex I know of Hillsboro Oregon...I live here and it is very nice weather today...75 degrees and sunny....
I am grateful for the topology info on the speaker, I knew there had to be more to this than just good drivers, altho they are good drivers,,,,,the tweeter and mid look to be identical to the L-150 setup, only the woofer is smaller obviously...I am told there are no longer replacement diaphrams for the tweeter so I am holding my breath when I turn up the volume on them, so far they seem to really be able to cook at high volumes, espically since i run them bi amped with a passive 70htz crossover on the bass end and run a fabulous bass energizer from a L-212 . I feel flat to 20 htz in my room and it really vibrates the whole house..can not run that loud too long, but the sound only gets louder, not compressed in any way....I have them sitting on top of a pair of L-166 horizons for stands..very sturdy and expensive stands i would say, but it puts them at a very good height for listening...no, they are not as good on the top end as the L-166s, but are better at normal volume levals, I always found that the L166s need to be fed some real juice before they started to sound real good, kind of thin at normal volumes.....thanks again for the replys, I have owned JBL s since 1974 and these little monitors kind of recreate the jbl excitement some of the other models kind of miss.....I will change me profile and list my other spakers like some of you do.....another pair of small jbls that kind of surprised me was my pair of p-30s made in denmark with a 8in woofer, mid and titanium tweeter..no leval controls but much better sound than other similar from other manufactures.......anyway, nice to have this forum to express my love for all the jbls, nice to know i am not crazy in my bellief that the jbl sound is much better than the general audiophile community has any idea of.....

[jbl4435]

Hello maggnepan,

I agree wholeheartedly. My second pair of JBL's were L-100's bought in 1976. About a year later the L-110 came out and 5 min. of listening was all I needed. A week later my L-100's were sold and I was jamming to L-110's. The entire audio spectrum sounded better. Sound was cleaner and more detailed with a much tighter bass. Bass I thought was much more accurate. Later in the '80's I bought a pair of 4313's that were stolen about 4 years later. I guess someone else thought they sounded good to. My L-110's were later traded in on a purchase of a pair of L-300's, both of which I wish I still had.

Enjoy!!!!!!!!!

[Regis]

I loaned the pair of L-110's to my brother, while I converted his L-150's. At first, he didn't want to take them and I think he looked at their diminutive size compared to the L-150 and took somewhat of an attitude towards them. But I convinced him otherwise, as I said it'd take me a couple of weeks to work on his other speakers.

He called me up a couple of days later and he stated that he was surprised at how good the L-110's performed. He said that he'd rate these as an 8 out of 10 to the L-150 and that's only because of the power capacity. They sounded every bit as good (they should, the L-150 and the L-110 share the same mid and 033 tweet).

I sure like them and whenever I hear them, I'm usually impressed with the clarity, excellent separation and solid bass that these little guys put out. I've heard the "oh-so-vaunted" L-100's and it wasn't the same experience.

[jbl4435]

I'm pretty much on the side lines on the debate about how "good" the L-100 really was. Not being an acoustic or electrical engineer I'm no expert, but during the early seventies recording engineers were taking the studio version home like mad, resulting in the consumer version. Let's face it, the L-100 sold like hot cakes . Was it the sound or the really neat speaker grill?

I have a pair of L-100's now. About four years ago my next door neighbor asked for some help getting some speakers down from his attic. He was getting married and was "cleaning up". Next thing I know he's handing me L-100's down from his attic. They were a mess. Beer runs down the front, one low frequency driver was a little warped, all the cones very "dried" out. The domes on both tweeters were even pushed in. Before I knew it they were in my garage gym. He didn't want to bother with them and just gave them to me. Well, they're still in my garage, they're still dried out and they STILL sound superb!!! Punched in domes and all!!!

I wish they were L-110's.

[grayeo]

CHECK OUT A PAIR BEING DRIVEN BY A BILL BEARD BB100 ITS A MATCH MADE IN HEVEN ABSOLUTLEY SUPERB COMBINATION :applaud:

[beppe61]

.... I finally got these restore about 2 mo ago and have been stunned at how detailed they sound and are able to pinpoint all the instruments better than the L-100s.....

Dear Sir, dear Sirs,

please excuse me if I refresh this old 3D on the L110 speakers.
I am about to buy a pair, in the end.
As last curiosity, I would like to hear some opinions about their ability to reproduce a soundstage well developed in the 3 directions.
Are they good at reproducing depth of soundstage ? I like this effect so much.
It always enthralls me.
I already know they have a wonderful bass and quite good mids and highs.
I listen to everything, from disco to classical.
I listen at about 2,5 meters from the speakers (is it this so called near-field situation ?)
These should be my definitive speakers ... for some months at least (eh, eh).

Thank you sincerely as always.
My kindest regards,

beppe
italy

[coherent_guy]

Giskard's story is informative regarding the L110 as well as being a good synopsis of the high-ends view of JBL at that time and perhaps even to this day, at least to a degree. The 110 was my first JBL speaker and found itself in the company of L36's, L65's, and L100's owned by friends. We didn't know quite what to make of them at first, they were different certainly, and as time passed the colorations of the others became more and more noticable. Still, the 110's were rejected by some as unexciting or just "missing something". I didn't miss that something. The 110's were the first speakers that taught me what imaging was and when I demoed that for some friends they were astonished. Sure, we were still kids but we were learning. I still have mine over 25 years later.

Though touted as an L100 replacement, they were not of that lineage (senior members please correct my info if necessary) at all. I believe they were the first JBL speaker designed using Thiele/Small parameters, or one of the first. Comparing the L100 crossover to the L110's shows how closely they are related - not much. The 111A woofer started rolling off below 50 Hz in the '110 enclosure, but was quick and punchy in the mid and upper bass, I've dreamed of a system using this woofer with a sub 1500 crossed at about 60 Hz. The 110 was never the pop culture idol the L100 is but as we can see here they are much appreciated.

Beppe, I'd say 2,5 meters is at the far end of near field (8.3 feet) but may be about right for a larger near field monitor as a 4313/L110 is (can you near field 4350s?) I have always had problems reproducing soundstage depth regardless of the speaker so I can't comment on that. L110's can image very well and disappear as sound sources in my experience. They certainly are in my speaker rotation for months at a time, as you suggest. I have had good results running them wide open with a subwoofer, without boom or bloated bass. Does anyone out there run them high-passed with a sub?

[4313B]

Does anyone out there run them high-passed with a sub?First time was with a pair of B212's. It quickly got out of hand from there.

[grumpy]

Does anyone out there run them high-passed with a sub? Not with
L110's, but I did with L112's and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. :) Have L96's in a
(much) smaller room and have never felt the urge to supplement them with a sub.
-grumpy

(L112's were sat upon custom ported boxes containing SUB1500's, used 525 as crossover, and found ~80Hz worked fine).

[coherent_guy]

First time was with a pair of B212's. It quickly got out of hand from there.


HA, that's good, out of hand is the only way to go I'd say . . .


Not with
L110's, but I did with L112's and thoroughly enjoyed the experience. :) Have L96's in a
(much) smaller room and have never felt the urge to supplement them with a sub.
-grumpy

(L112's were sat upon custom ported boxes containing SUB1500's, used 525 as crossover, and found ~80Hz worked fine).

L96's more extended than L112's?? ;) I too did not feel the need to add anything with my '110's, until I got my SUB1500's running, and although that setup is far from perfect they taught me what low bass really is. I haven't looked, is the L96 woofer a 111A with aquaplas on the front of the cone, or something else? How does the L96 compare to the L110, technically and sonically? Uhm, and what's a 525 crossover? :blink:

[4313B]

I've posted the various networks so they can be compared several times. The L96 was a bit more "lively" than the L110A, basically a slightly less expensive version of the 4313B. The LE111A was a low Q driver used in the original L110 and 4313. The L110A, 4313B and L96 all used the LE111H/LE10H/LE10H-1; Same driver, different cosmetics. The L96 and L112 had the same bandwidth, the high compliance 128H exhibited more fullness. The 128H really liked the extra volume in the 4 cu ft L150/L150A box.

I've been waiting for a forum member to upgrade their L150A's to Ti components...

[briang]

I've been waiting for a forum member to upgrade their L150A's to Ti components...

FWIW, I'll be upgrading my L96s with TI components. I'll likely use the 120Ti crossover and re-do them with Charge Coupled capacitors.

I have enough spare parts for one pair now; I hope to creat a 5.1 system using five L96Ti. It will only happen if I can afford to snag the 120Ti crossovers, 104H and 044Ti off of ebay. The TI series of components is fetching a very high premium these days!

[beppe61]

Giskard's story is informative regarding the L110 as well as being a good synopsis of the high-ends view of JBL at that time and perhaps even to this day, at least to a degree. The 110 was my first JBL speaker and found itself in the company of L36's, L65's, and L100's owned by friends. We didn't know quite what to make of them at first, they were different certainly, and as time passed the colorations of the others became more and more noticable. Still, the 110's were rejected by some as unexciting or just "missing something". I didn't miss that something.
The 110's were the first speakers that taught me what imaging was and when I demoed that for some friends they were astonished.
Sure, we were still kids but we were learning. I still have mine over 25 years later.
Though touted as an L100 replacement, they were not of that lineage (senior members please correct my info if necessary) at all. I believe they were the first JBL speaker designed using Thiele/Small parameters, or one of the first. Comparing the L100 crossover to the L110's shows how closely they are related - not much. The 111A woofer started rolling off below 50 Hz in the '110 enclosure, but was quick and punchy in the mid and upper bass, I've dreamed of a system using this woofer with a sub 1500 crossed at about 60 Hz.
The 110 was never the pop culture idol the L100 is but as we can see here they are much appreciated.
Beppe, I'd say 2,5 meters is at the far end of near field (8.3 feet) but may be about right for a larger near field monitor as a 4313/L110 is (can you near field 4350s?) I have always had problems reproducing soundstage depth regardless of the speaker so I can't comment on that.
L110's can image very well and disappear as sound sources in my experience.
They certainly are in my speaker rotation for months at a time, as you suggest. I have had good results running them wide open with a subwoofer, without boom or bloated bass.
Does anyone out there run them high-passed with a sub?

Dear Sir, I thank you sincerely for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
I have some space constraints and the L110s have the maximum speaker size I can accomodate in my listening room at the moment.
I am looking for the widest bandwidth and dynamics I can get with a speaker with these dimensions.
The guy who is going to sell them to me is a JBL old fan.
He has a very envyable collection of JBL speakers (L166, Jubal, and others) and drivers.
I liked immediately the JBL L110's prodigious bass and dynamics. Very impressive indeed.
And now that you tell me that, if correctly placed, they are also able "to disappear" I have no more doubts about their greatness.

Thank you very much indeed.
My kindest regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

Dear Sir, I thank you sincerely for your extremely kind and valuable reply.
I have some space constraints and the L110s have the maximum speaker size I can accomodate in my listening room at the moment.
I am looking for the widest bandwidth and dynamics I can get with a speaker with these dimensions.
The guy who is going to sell them to me is a JBL old fan.
He has a very envyable collection of JBL speakers (L166, Jubal, and others) and drivers.
I liked immediately the JBL L110's prodigious bass and dynamics. Very impressive indeed.
And now that you tell me that, if correctly placed, they are also able "to disappear" I have no more doubts about their greatness.

Thank you very much indeed.
My kindest regards,

beppe

Greetings Beppe,

Thank you for your kind words, I don't know if I really gave you that much important information, but if you say so, so be it! As others have said here, in a smaller room the low bass will be enhanced and that will be a plus for you, maybe to much even! I always very carefully position my speakers to be the same distance from the listening position, that helps with the speakers disappearing. I even use a simple string that I connect to the speaker or its stand, and mark the string at the listening position, and then use that to position the other speaker. If you have some stands to get them off the floor about 45 - 50 cm that would be a big help. If not, tilting them so the front is up several cm will help also. They will be top heavy on stands so be careful, you might use another pair of speakers for stands, and then maybe use all four. Four L110's stacked two per side would be great "towers of power"! Buy them now before someone else gets them!! What amplifier, etc, are you using?

The following page discusses the LE111A woofer, used in the 4313 monitor and the L110:

http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1978-4313/page2.jpg

That woofer is one of the last alnico woofers JBL made, I believe. The L110 uses different mids and tweeter than the 4313. I can't find the tech info page for the L110 at the moment, but I know it's on this site somewhere! Let us know how you like them when you get them, and I'm not saying if you get them!!! Be well.

[beppe61]

Greetings Beppe,

Thank you for your kind words, I don't know if I really gave you that much important information, but if you say so, so be it! As others have said here, in a smaller room the low bass will be enhanced and that will be a plus for you, maybe to much even! I always very carefully position my speakers to be the same distance from the listening position, that helps with the speakers disappearing. I even use a simple string that I connect to the speaker or its stand, and mark the string at the listening position, and then use that to position the other speaker. If you have some stands to get them off the floor about 45 - 50 cm that would be a big help. If not, tilting them so the front is up several cm will help also. They will be top heavy on stands so be careful, you might use another pair of speakers for stands, and then maybe use all four. Four L110's stacked two per side would be great "towers of power"! Buy them now before someone else gets them!! What amplifier, etc, are you using?
The following page discusses the LE111A woofer, used in the 4313 monitor and the L110:
http://www.lansingheritage.org/images/jbl/specs/pro-speakers/1978-4313/page2.jpg
That woofer is one of the last alnico woofers JBL made, I believe. The L110 uses different mids and tweeter than the 4313. I can't find the tech info page for the L110 at the moment, but I know it's on this site somewhere! Let us know how you like them when you get them, and I'm not saying if you get them!!! Be well.



Dear Sir,



thank you sincerely again for your kind reply.

I can assure you that your advice is extremely helpful to me.

Thank you for your directions for a correct placement in the room.

I understand this is critical in order to get a correct stereo image and soundstage reproduction, a quality I like very much indeed.

By the way I feel that even today, with the world populated by critics who judge only by ear, measurements can tell us one or two things.

Looking at the T&S parameters for the LE111A I can see a Fs=25 and Qts=0.17 (!)

All in all these are extremely impressive figures, not easily find in other drivers.

About stacking two pairs of L110, I am sure the outcome would be wonderful, a tower speaker that could compete with the best out there.

Maybe in the future. For now one should be more than enough.

Regarding the amplification used, I have a Bryston .4B line preamp and two small but powerful British monos (high current 40 Watters), the Albarry M408.

I feel that the preamp is limiting the performance.

I listened the Albarrys in a much more expensive set-up and I liked them a lot. They were not embarassed at all.

I would like to experiment with a tube line stage, but the M408 have a very low input impedance (5 kohm) and are not the easiest of the loads for a tube stage.

And transformer coupled tube preamps, with low output impedance, are usually very expensive.

Do you have any suggestion for a line stage with a great quality/price ratio and able to drive 5 kohm comfortably ?



Thank you very much again.

Kind regards,



Beppe

[LRBacon]

Hello Beppe,
I thought I would throw in my two cents worth here.
I have found that it is best to get the L110's up nearer to ear level. I have had my original pair since 1982 and they spent most of that time on the floor without any stands. I had a friend make me a pair of stands modeled after the JBL aftermarket model that was available when I bought my speakers. This raised them up little bit and tilted them back so they were aimed more towards one's ears when seated. During the time they were on the floor or on the stands I never really notice any particular depth to the soundstage they presented. It wasn't until I had set them up in my garage and put them up on a pair of L110 boxes that the depth of the soundstage was so pronounced. I find them to be very accurate and easy to listen to for long periods of time. No ear fatigue with them.:)
I am currently driving them with a 70 watt per channel Heathkit integrated amplifier and using a tuner or Technics 5 disc CD changer for tunes. I usually listen at a level that indicates less than 1 watt on the output meters. I have cranked them up with an average 20 watts on the meters and they're so loud they about drive me out of the garage. My garage is 24 feet by 36 feet. All the walls are unfinished, lots of hard surface.

The earlier L110's came with the LE111A woofer, the N110 network and were rated for 75 watts rms. The later L110's (AKA L110A's) came with the LE111H woofer, the N110A network (which contains bypass capacitors) and were rated for 250 watts rms. There is no indication externally on the L110 cabinet to tell you which model you have. The instruction manual that comes with the speaker will tell you the rms rating and from that you can deduct which model you have without removing the woofer to check its model # or the network for either N110 or N110A written on it.
I don't know at which point during the manufacturing of the L110, that JBL changed it from the L110 to the L110A. If one knew that, one could probable tell by the serial # which model one had.
IMHO I don't think you can go wrong with a pair or two or three or more!!! :D

[Zilch]

Four L110's stacked two per side would be great "towers of power"!This from a "Coherent_guy?" :p

[grumpy]

I can concur in regard to using stands (~46cm works for me) and in the need for good
stand stability, given the weight of the speakers. -grumpy

[beppe61]

[quote=LRBacon;146539]Hello Beppe,
I thought I would throw in my two cents worth here.....

Dear Sir, thank you so much for your very interesting advice.
Let me quote some passages.

I have found that it is best to get the L110's up nearer to ear level.
Are you are referring to the tweeter's or midrange's axis ?
I wonder even when listening very close to the speakers at about 2,5 meters I can still get a good image anyway.

During the time they were on the floor or on the stands I never really notice any particular depth to the soundstage they presented.
It wasn't until I had set them up in my garage and put them up on a pair of L110 boxes that the depth of the soundstage was so pronounced.
Very very helpful. Thank you.

I find them to be very accurate and easy to listen to for long periods of time. No ear fatigue with them.:)
Extremely appreciable quality.
I have always related the "ear fatigue" with the presence of distortion.
This should mean very low level of distortion fom the speaker.

I have cranked them up with an average 20 watts on the meters and they're so loud they about drive me out of the garage.
My garage is 24 feet by 36 feet.
My listening room is much smaller at 4,5x6 meters.
Plenty of sound then with my 40 honest watts/channel I believe.

The earlier L110's came with the LE111A woofer, the N110 network and were rated for 75 watts rms.
The later L110's (AKA L110A's) came with the LE111H woofer, the N110A network (which contains bypass capacitors) and were rated for 250 watts rms.
Which is the best option ?
Anyway I will check as you suggest the woofer and crossover model.

IMHO I don't think you can go wrong with a pair or two or three or more!!! :D
Do you think that both models are good ?
Which would be the best choice ?
I do not understand what are those bypass capacitors in the N110A network.

Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,

beppe

[LRBacon]

[quote=LRBacon;146539]Hello Beppe,

I thought I would throw in my two cents worth here.....

Dear Sir, thank you so much for your very interesting advice.
Let me quote some passages.

I have found that it is best to get the L110's up nearer to ear level.
Are you are referring to the tweeter's or midrange's axis ?


I wonder even when listening very close to the speakers at about 2,5 meters I can still get a good image anyway.

During the time they were on the floor or on the stands I never really notice any particular depth to the soundstage they presented.
It wasn't until I had set them up in my garage and put them up on a pair of L110 boxes that the depth of the soundstage was so pronounced.
Very very helpful. Thank you.

I find them to be very accurate and easy to listen to for long periods of time. No ear fatigue with them.:)
Extremely appreciable quality.
I have always related the "ear fatigue" with the presence of distortion.
This should mean very low level of distortion fom the speaker.

I have cranked them up with an average 20 watts on the meters and they're so loud they about drive me out of the garage.
My garage is 24 feet by 36 feet.
My listening room is much smaller at 4,5x6 meters.
Plenty of sound then with my 40 honest watts/channel I believe.

The earlier L110's came with the LE111A woofer, the N110 network and were rated for 75 watts rms.
The later L110's (AKA L110A's) came with the LE111H woofer, the N110A network (which contains bypass capacitors) and were rated for 250 watts rms.
Which is the best option ?
Anyway I will check as you suggest the woofer and crossover model.

IMHO I don't think you can go wrong with a pair or two or three or more!!! :D
Do you think that both models are good ?
Which would be the best choice ?
I do not understand what are those bypass capacitors in the N110A network.

Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,

beppe You are very welcome.

As far as placement goes, I would have them up to a level so that your ears are on axis midway between the tweeter and midrange. Those high frequencies are more directional.
I think your distance would work OK, you could angle the speakers so they are aimed more towards your listening area than parallel with your room wall.
You shouldn't have any problem filling that size room with loud clean sound.
If you can, go with the L110A. The crossover network is a little bit more refined and according to Giskard the LE111H woofer works better in the L110 enclosure.
I think you would be happy with either version. I really can't tell that much difference between the two. I've had both versions playing at the same time and find it difficult to hear their differences.
Bepe, you might do some research in the forum to find out more about the bypass capacitors. I really don't know that much about them.

Larry

[beppe61]

[quote=beppe61;146611]
You are very welcome.
As far as placement goes, I would have them up to a level so that your ears are on axis midway between the tweeter and midrange.
Those high frequencies are more directional.
I think your distance would work OK, you could angle the speakers so they are aimed more towards your listening area than parallel with your room wall. You shouldn't have any problem filling that size room with loud clean sound.
If you can, go with the L110A.
The crossover network is a little bit more refined and according to Giskard the LE111H woofer works better in the L110 enclosure.
I think you would be happy with either version.
I really can't tell that much difference between the two.
I've had both versions playing at the same time and find it difficult to hear their differences.
Bepe, you might do some research in the forum to find out more about the bypass capacitors.
I really don't know that much about them.
Larry

Dear Mr Larry,
thank you very much again for your kind and valuable advice.
I really think I know more than enough about the L110 now.
As I said before, I listened to them at my friend's home and liked them for their clean and very powerful sound. The bass then was just amazing.
For me is very close to the "perfect bass": deep, powerful, fast.
Thanks sincerely again.
Kind regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

This from a "Coherent_guy?" :p

Now now, why would that be incoherent?? :blink: I believe stacking identical speakers was a fad or technique for better sound used in the past. When I was a kid we would stack various JBL's, like L166's with L110's on top, or L65's with L166's on top. We would call those "jams" and blast music at high SPL, of course, and that's where the term "towers of power" came from. Ahh, those were the days!!! :D

[Zilch]

Now now, why would that be incoherent?? :blink: We've been around and around the stacking thing several times here.

It's axiomatic: running the same program material through multiple sources will of necessity generate interference between and among them.

Stacking tweeter to tweeter, minimizing the distance between them at those short wavelengths, reduces it somewhat for them, and if you get back a substantial distance, the multiples will once again approximate a coherent source.... :thmbsup:

See the pretty color pics (at 10m) here as illustration:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n07.pdf

[coherent_guy]

We've been around and around the stacking thing several times here.

It's axiomatic: running the same program material through multiple sources will of necessity generate interference between and among them.

Stacking tweeter to tweeter, minimizing the distance between them at those short wavelengths, reduces it somewhat for them, and if you get back a substantial distance, the multiples will once again approximate a coherent source.... :thmbsup:

See the pretty color pics here as illustration:

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n07.pdf

. . . oh, Ok . . . still, it was fun!! :p

[Zilch]

. . . oh, Ok . . . still, it was fun!! :pNo denying that, for SURE! :thmbsup:

[coherent_guy]

Dear Sir,




thank you sincerely again for your kind reply.
I can assure you that your advice is extremely helpful to me.
Thank you for your directions for a correct placement in the room.
I understand this is critical in order to get a correct stereo image and soundstage reproduction, a quality I like very much indeed.
By the way I feel that even today, with the world populated by critics who judge only by ear, measurements can tell us one or two things.
Looking at the T&S parameters for the LE111A I can see a Fs=25 and Qts=0.17 (!)
All in all these are extremely impressive figures, not easily find in other drivers.
About stacking two pairs of L110, I am sure the outcome would be wonderful, a tower speaker that could compete with the best out there.
Maybe in the future. For now one should be more than enough.
Regarding the amplification used, I have a Bryston .4B line preamp and two small but powerful British monos (high current 40 Watters), the Albarry M408.
I feel that the preamp is limiting the performance.
I listened the Albarrys in a much more expensive set-up and I liked them a lot. They were not embarassed at all.
I would like to experiment with a tube line stage, but the M408 have a very low input impedance (5 kohm) and are not the easiest of the loads for a tube stage.
And transformer coupled tube preamps, with low output impedance, are usually very expensive.
Do you have any suggestion for a line stage with a great quality/price ratio and able to drive 5 kohm comfortably ?


Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,



Beppe





Ciao Sig. Beppe,

Dopo che leggendo quell'alberino, dica che conoscete che cosa state facendo abbastanza bene!

I'm not familiar with that Bryston preamp. I would think it would be pretty good being from Bryston, and probably uses discrete components rather then op-amps. Certainly up to the task of driving that low input impedance.

Finding a good preamp for the money is not an easy task, they are usually quite pricey. Plus being a tube amp person, you're not going to be easy to please ;) I've noticed the German company Vincent recently, you may be aware of them now of course, they have some nice looking components including hybrid tube/transitor preamps at pretty good prices:

http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/produkt/vor.php

How about some Italiano stuff, like Pathos, this preamp looks great:

http://www.pathosacoustics.com/indexeng.htm

. . . but not exactly easy on the wallet :blink:

[beppe61]

[quote=coherent_guy;146746]
Ciao Sig. Beppe,
Dopo che leggendo quell'alberino, dica che conoscete che cosa state facendo abbastanza bene!

Good morning Sir !
Your italian is pretty good indeed.
Just a correction : alberino is the italian for little tree

I'm not familiar with that Bryston preamp.
I would think it would be pretty good being from Bryston, and probably uses discrete components rather then op-amps.
Certainly up to the task of driving that low input impedance.
That is right.
Bryston line preamps are of the so-called discrete op-amps type.
My feeling is that they are just too complex.
Two bjts in a line preamp for me would be more than enough.
But this is a personal opinion.
By the way the output impedance should be about 50 ohms more or less.
Very good driving ability.

Finding a good preamp for the money is not an easy task, they are usually quite pricey. Plus being a tube amp person, you're not going to be easy to please ;)
I have to say that tube preamps never fail to be at least "musical".
They can really have some shortcomings (noise, high output impedance) but the sound is there.

I've noticed the German company Vincent recently, you may be aware of them now of course, they have some nice looking components including hybrid tube/transitor preamps at pretty good prices:
http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/produkt/vor.php (http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/produkt/vor.php)
thank you for the suggestion.
I will look for and try to listen to them.

How about some Italiano stuff, like Pathos, this preamp looks great:
http://www.pathosacoustics.com/indexeng.htm (http://www.pathosacoustics.com/indexeng.htm)
. . . but not exactly easy on the wallet :blink:
that is indeed a problem.
Anyway the search is on.
And " We have all the time in the world ".
Beautiful song .... really.

Thank you sincerely again.
Kind regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

[quote=coherent_guy;146746]
Ciao Sig. Beppe,
Dopo che leggendo quell'alberino, dica che conoscete che cosa state facendo abbastanza bene!

Good morning Sir !
Your italian is pretty good indeed.
Just a correction : alberino is the italian for little tree

Ciao Beppe, I must confess I do not know Italian at all, I cheated with a little thing called Babel Fish that translates text, comes in handy though as you can see it's not perfect. It was supposed to say, "After reading your post . . .", and I did not mean to read your "little tree" :blink: No more comments on that one . . .

http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/babelfish/tr


I'm not familiar with that Bryston preamp.
I would think it would be pretty good being from Bryston, and probably uses discrete components rather then op-amps.
Certainly up to the task of driving that low input impedance.
That is right.
Bryston line preamps are of the so-called discrete op-amps type.
My feeling is that they are just too complex.
Two bjts in a line preamp for me would be more than enough.
But this is a personal opinion.
By the way the output impedance should be about 50 ohms more or less.
Very good driving ability.

Just for your knowledge, the correct phrase is "discrete transistor(s)" not discrete op-amps. Discrete in this instance means individual or single, and an op-amp has multiple transistors and other components on it. So, an op-amp or two might have as many individual transistors as the entire discrete transistor circuit of your Bryston. Forgive my correction, your English is quite good and I feel it is more respectful to help you with it rather than ignore even small mistakes.

You obviously have a very purist philosophy in your audio circuitry preferences, if more than two transistors is too much for you!! Have you ever considered a so-called "passive preamp" or level attenuators made of switches and resistors without any active circuitry? A passive preamp has no gain stages, no amplifying devices at all. You give up most of the features on a regular preamp, but purists don't care. This works fine with CD players, but if you use a turntable you still need a phono preamp with RIAA equalization and some level boost. These units are rare and I've never used one, but some audiophiles swear by them. Others feel that removing the preamp stage completely results in a light-weight sound, and there can be impedance matching problems with passive units. Some tube integrated amps have very minimal preamp stages, perhaps that is also something to look into. Anyone on the forum using a passive preamp unit or stepped level attenuators?

(snip)


Anyway the search is on.
And " We have all the time in the world ".
Beautiful song .... really.

Thank you sincerely again.
Kind regards,

beppe

Did you get the L110's yet?? Best wishes il mio amico.

[beppe61]

Just for your knowledge, the correct phrase is "discrete transistor(s)" not discrete op-amps.
Discrete in this instance means individual or single, and an op-amp has multiple transistors and other components on it.
So, an op-amp or two might have as many individual transistors as the entire discrete transistor circuit of your Bryston.
Forgive my correction, your English is quite good and I feel it is more respectful to help you with it rather than ignore even small mistakes.
Dear Sir, thank you very much for your kind advice. :D
Actually my English is quite basic but I am trying to improve it.


You obviously have a very purist philosophy in your audio circuitry preferences, if more than two transistors is too much for you!!
I understand that very good distortion figures can be obtained with extremely basic topologies. :p
I have one circuit using just two bjts that I would like to build in the next future.
It is taken from a old but nice sounding English preamp, the Radford ZD22.
The topology is called Sziklai pair.;)

Have you ever considered a so-called "passive preamp" or level attenuators made of switches and resistors without any active circuitry?
A passive preamp has no gain stages, no amplifying devices at all.
I heard of problems about impedance matching.
My amps have a very low input impedance after all (5K).:o:

You give up most of the features on a regular preamp, but purists don't care.
Actually I do not care at all. Just one input and one output,:applaud:

This works fine with CD players, but if you use a turntable you still need a phono preamp with RIAA equalization and some level boost. These units are rare and I've never used one, but some audiophiles swear by them.
Others feel that removing the preamp stage completely results in a light-weight sound, and there can be impedance matching problems with passive units.
It is my opinion as well. Bass response usually suffers.

Some tube integrated amps have very minimal preamp stages, perhaps that is also something to look into.
Yes but the bass of a solid state is very difficult to get out of tubes I think and also tubes are not as user friendly as solid state amps.

Anyone on the forum using a passive preamp unit or stepped level attenuators?
Good question. I am sorry but I really do not know.
Nevertheless it would be extremely interesting to know the opinion of a user.

Did you get the L110's yet??
Not yet. The boxes of my pair are in a very bad shape.
I realized this just today.:(
My friend offered himself to restore them and I am waiting for this reason.
I hope he knows what has to be done .... :o:

Best wishes il mio amico
Best wishes to you and thank very much again.
Kind regards,

beppe:D

[SMKSoundPro]

I have my L-110's in my workshop office at the nightclub and are now hooked up to a Fisher 800-c with rca 7591's. They play everyday at work and I really enjoy them! One of the 033 tweets was not working, but found a broken "tinsel" wire to be the culprit. A little fix here or there, and a lot of enjoyment!
I found mine without the woofers. I just happened to have a pair of LE111a's sitting on a shelf in need if a good box.

I love them for what and where they are!!!

Scott.

[beppe61]

I have my L-110's in my workshop office at the nightclub and are now hooked up to a Fisher 800-c with rca 7591's.
They play everyday at work and I really enjoy them!
One of the 033 tweets was not working, but found a broken "tinsel" wire to be the culprit. A little fix here or there, and a lot of enjoyment!
I found mine without the woofers. I just happened to have a pair of LE111a's sitting on a shelf in need if a good box.
I love them for what and where they are!!!
Scott.

Dear Mr Scott,
my sincere congratulations (and envy) for your excellent system.
I am sure you get an extremely enjoyable sound out of it.
Nevertheless if I had to listen in the very near field (up to 1,5 meter), I feel the situation you could experiment in your office, I would strongly suggest to try also a pair of nice coaxial speakers.
I own a pair of 8" dual concentric from ... well you know the brand.
Let's say it is a very famous British one.
Very very good.
By the way since I listened to the bass out of the LE111A, well .... It almost took my breath away (please excuse my bad English. I am a learner and as a learner I am trying to make a good use of the text of famous English songs ... eh eh) !
W H A T A B A S S !
It is for me the PERFECT BASS: fast, deep, powerful and completely and always under control.
Nevertheless if you have to listen in the very near field try a dual concentric speaker ... even one built around a 8" driver.
A very different but extremely fascinating experience, at least IMHO.

Thanks and regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

Did you get the L110's yet??
Not yet. The boxes of my pair are in a very bad shape.
I realized this just today.:(
My friend offered himself to restore them and I am waiting for this reason.
I hope he knows what has to be done .... :o:



Ciao Beppe,

It is a shame about the condition of the enclosures. I hope all the drivers are fine, it seems the L111A's are. I am not a great wood worker so I hope some other forum members can give you some advise on what to do with them. Perhaps you should just take them and cover them with grille cloth like Mr. Zilch did with a speaker he buiilt :D

Scott's pair look excellent. He doesn't seem to mind tube amp bass, and look at those Crown amps just sitting there too! ;)

Regarding electronics, you may need to build your own to meet your requirements. Have you ever seen the Pass DIY site? Here it is:

http://www.passdiy.com/

I hope you can get your L110's home soon.

[beppe61]

[quote=coherent_guy;147230]

Ciao Beppe,
It is a shame about the condition of the enclosures.
I hope all the drivers are fine, it seems the L111A's are
Thank you very much for your extremely kind support.
Maybe I owe some explanations.
I heard a fully working pair of L100 at my friend's house.
He his also able to replace foams on old woofer and ro repair/upgrade crossovers.
He has a spare pair of working LE111A at hand and now has found this boxes with mids, highs and crossover.
The idea is to restore them and add the woofers.
The result should be a working pair of JBL L110, in our hope.

I am not a great wood worker so I hope some other forum members can give you some advise on what to do with them.
Perhaps you should just take them and cover them with grille cloth like Mr. Zilch did with a speaker he buiilt :D
I will look for some pictures in the forum of Mr Zilch solution.
It could be a very good solution indeed.

Scott's pair look excellent.
He doesn't seem to mind tube amp bass, and look at those Crown amps just sitting there too! ;)
First step must be to get the L110 restored well.
Then I will proceed with the amp's selection.

Regarding electronics, you may need to build your own to meet your requirements. Have you ever seen the Pass DIY site? Here it is:
http://www.passdiy.com/ (http://www.passdiy.com/)
I know the site very well. I already have a Bride of Zen at hand and is working fine. But I would like to experiment with other solutions.

I hope you can get your L110's home soon
I have not seen yet the boxes. He told me that they are quite bad.
Nevertheless I am very interested in getting a pair of them, soon or later.
I like that LE111A really too much.

I will report on the result of the restoration.
My kindest regards,

beppe

[LRBacon]

Hi Beppe,

Were you able to determine which model of L110's you have?

Larry

[Zilch]

I will look for some pictures in the forum of Mr Zilch solution.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=139183#post139183

:p

[beppe61]

Hi Beppe,
Were you able to determine which model of L110's you have?
Larry

Dear Mr Larry,
I try to upload a picture of the crossover.
As I see a lot of by-pass film caps I believe its the L110A's crossover.
Can you confirm my impression ? does it look original ?

Thanks and regards,

beppe

[beppe61]

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=139183#post139183
:p

Thank you very much Mr Zilch !
Very impressive creation. My sincere congratulations !
If I had a bigger room I would strive to set-up a wonderful two-way monitor like that.
A really nice 15" with a horn-loaded mid-high dome.
Have you tried it biamplified ?
I read in the 3D about the Everest that biamplification can elevate the perfomance of a very good monitor to an astonishing level.
I never tried but I think so.

Kind regards,

beppe

[oznob]

Dear Mr Larry,
I try to upload a picture of the crossover.
As I see a lot of by-pass film caps I believe its the L110A's crossover.
Can you confirm my impression ? does it look original ?

Thanks and regards,

beppe

The easiest way to tell is by looking at the woofer. 110, alnico magnets, 110A, ceramic.

[beppe61]

The easiest way to tell is by looking at the woofer. 110, alnico magnets, 110A, ceramic.

Thank you very much Sirs.
The boxes came with only crossovers, midranges e tweeters.
The woofers were missing.:o:
My friends has a spare pair of LE111Hs (ceramic magnets) at hand.:bouncy:
The idea is to place this pair in the boxes.
I hope to get a full L110A in the end (I am crossing fingers:( ) .
Kind regards,

beppe

[LRBacon]

Thank you very much Sirs.
The boxes came with only crossovers, midranges e tweeters.
The woofers were missing.:o:
My friends has a spare pair of LE111Hs (ceramic magnets) at hand.:bouncy:
The idea is to place this pair in the boxes.
I hope to get a full L110A in the end (I am crossing fingers:( ) .
Kind regards,

beppe

Those are L110A crossovers, Beppe!
The LE111H woofer is the correct one.

Larry

[coherent_guy]

Hello Beppe,
I thought I would throw in my two cents worth here.

(text removed)

The earlier L110's came with the LE111A woofer, the N110 network and were rated for 75 watts rms. The later L110's (AKA L110A's) came with the LE111H woofer, the N110A network (which contains bypass capacitors) and were rated for 250 watts rms. There is no indication externally on the L110 cabinet to tell you which model you have. The instruction manual that comes with the speaker will tell you the rms rating and from that you can deduct which model you have without removing the woofer to check its model # or the network for either N110 or N110A written on it.
I don't know at which point during the manufacturing of the L110, that JBL changed it from the L110 to the L110A. If one knew that, one could probable tell by the serial # which model one had.
IMHO I don't think you can go wrong with a pair or two or three or more!!! :D

Regarding the power handling capability of the 110 vs 110A, what accounts for the huge difference, simply the different woofers? The LE111A must be limited somehow compared to the LE111H, since I doubt if it is a sensitivity issue. For most home speakers to withstand 75 watts RMS for any length of time and sound good as well as survive is amazing, but 250 watts RMS? Aren't these continuous power handling specs a bit exaggerated? Not only here, but across the speaker industry (less likely here, more likely elsewhere :) ) Regardless, what accounts for the over three times difference in power handling spec between the 110 and 110A?

[LRBacon]

Regarding the power handling capability of the 110 vs 110A, what accounts for the huge difference, simply the different woofers? The LE111A must be limited somehow compared to the LE111H, since I doubt if it is a sensitivity issue. For most home speakers to withstand 75 watts RMS for any length of time and sound good as well as survive is amazing, but 250 watts RMS? Aren't these continuous power handling specs a bit exaggerated? Not only here, but across the speaker industry (less likely here, more likely elsewhere :) ) Regardless, what accounts for the over three times difference in power handling spec between the 110 and 110A?

According to the JBL Tech. sheet the 250 watt rms rating is the maximum recommended watts per channel of the amplifier to be used with a pair of the L110A speaker systems. There is a difference in components and design of the two crossover networks. There is probably a difference between the LE111A and the LE111H other than the magnetic structure but someone like Giskard would be more knowledgable on that subject than I would. This information might be found else where in the forum.

[beppe61]

Those are L110A crossovers, Beppe!
The LE111H woofer is the correct one.
Larry

Thank you very much Larry.
If I understand well this is the more advanced one.
Good ! I will go on with the restoration than .
Thank you very much again.
Kind regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

According to the JBL Tech. sheet the 250 watt rms rating is the maximum recommended watts per channel of the amplifier to be used with a pair of the L110A speaker systems. There is a difference in components and design of the two crossover networks. There is probably a difference between the LE111A and the LE111H other than the magnetic structure but someone like Giskard would be more knowledgable on that subject than I would. This information might be found else where in the forum.

LRBacon, I like your avatar, if that's a pic of your 110 collection, you truly are a 110 nut!! ;) I was browsing the Consumer Tech Sheets info pages of the L110 and L110A and noticed this:

In the case of the L110, the spec is given as this:

Power Capacity: 75 Watts Continuous Program

(see http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L110%20ts.pdf )

In the case of the L110A as you stated, the spec is given as this:

Max Rec. Amp Power: 250 Watts Per Channel

(see http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L110A%20ts.pdf )

So that explains it, two different specs that don't have much in common, if anything. The L110 spec is more specific certainly, although "Continuous Program" is not truly a technically defined term as "watts RMS" is, I believe. The "Max Rec. Amp Power" spec does not mean the 110A can take 250 Watts RMS, but will withstand peak power on transients of 250 Watts, at least that is my understanding of that spec. I cannot believe that the substitution of the LE111H woofer would cause the system to absorb 250 Watts RMS, instead of 75 Watts RMS (IF Continuous Program = RMS) given that the midrange and tweeter are the same in each system. The differences in the crossovers are due to the electrical parameters of the LE111H being different than the LE111A. If anyone thinks this is incorrect, I am listening. . . :)

[beppe61]

LRBacon, I like your avatar, if that's a pic of your 110 collection, you truly are a 110 nut!! ;) I was browsing the Consumer Tech Sheets info pages of the L110 and L110A and noticed this:

In the case of the L110, the spec is given as this:

Power Capacity: 75 Watts Continuous Program

(see http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L110%20ts.pdf )

In the case of the L110A as you stated, the spec is given as this:

Max Rec. Amp Power: 250 Watts Per Channel

(see http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/L110A%20ts.pdf )

So that explains it, two different specs that don't have much in common, if anything. The L110 spec is more specific certainly, although "Continuous Program" is not truly a technically defined term as "watts RMS" is, I believe. The "Max Rec. Amp Power" spec does not mean the 110A can take 250 Watts RMS, but will withstand peak power on transients of 250 Watts, at least that is my understanding of that spec. I cannot believe that the substitution of the LE111H woofer would cause the system to absorb 250 Watts RMS, instead of 75 Watts RMS (IF Continuous Program = RMS) given that the midrange and tweeter are the same in each system. The differences in the crossovers are due to the electrical parameters of the LE111H being different than the LE111A.
If anyone thinks this is incorrect, I am listening. . . :)

Good evening Sir.
Out of curiosity while I have already found the T&S parameters of the LE111A I cannot find those ones of the LE111H.
I hope they are similar.
That Qts at 0,17 is quite an achievement I believe.
On the basis of the T&S parameters alone the LE111A seems the best 10" made by JBL.
Thanks and regards,

beppe

[Fred Sanford]

Good evening Sir.
Out of curiosity while I have already found the T&S parameters of the LE111A I cannot find those ones of the LE111H.
I hope they are similar.
That Qts at 0,17 is quite an achievement I believe.
On the basis of the T&S parameters alone the LE111A seems the best 10" made by JBL.
Thanks and regards,

beppe


Try this, is this what you are looking for?

je

[4313B]

On the basis of the T&S parameters alone the LE111A seems the best 10" made by JBL.Too powerful for it's own good.
LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H is better balanced.
A/B them though and choose the one you prefer.
I believe both kits are still available.

[beppe61]

Try this, is this what you are looking for?
je

Exactly ! Thank you so much Sir.
If I have understood well the pair my friend is selling me are two LE111Hs.
Thank you very much indeed.
Kind regards,

beppe

[beppe61]

Thank you very much Sir for your kind and valuable advice.

[quote=Giskard;148188]
Too powerful for it's own good.
LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H is better balanced
Is there really such a woofer ? too powerful ?
I have always thought the lower the Qts the better the woofer.
As usual I am trivializing the whole issue.
What could be the drawbacks of a too powerful woofer ?

A/B them though and choose the one you prefer
Not so easy to do, I am afraid.
Presently the only pair ready available is of LE111H.

I believe both kits are still available
Excuse me but I am not an expert. What are kits ?

By the way if I understand well any 10" model would work just fine.
As I said the enclosure, mid, tweeter and crossover are those of the L110A. Woofer are spare LE111H.

Thank you sincerely again.
Kind regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

Try this, is this what you are looking for?

je

Why thank you Fred, what a convienient chart comparing these drivers. Seems to clear up the power handling question as well. :applaud:

Giskard, the LE111A to powerful and not as well balanced? Hey, we're talkin' extreme transducer here!!

. . . uhm, I see what you mean. . . sorta :o:

Beppe, the '111A is still my favorite, have you left us for another??



As I said the enclosure, mid, tweeter and crossover are those of the L110A. Woofer are spare LE111H.


Beppe, il mio amico, the crossover is different in the L110A with the LE111H, than the L110 crossover. Check the links I included in a previous message with the tech sheets. I imagine the LE111H will work with the L110 crossover, but it won't be perfect. Notice there is a difference in the midrange drivers crossover components as well between the two. I'm sure you could modify your crossover, hey more fun!! :bouncy:

[4313B]

Is there really such a woofer ? too powerful ?For certain applications yes. The LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H has more area under the curve than the LE111A in those 4313/L110/L96 boxes.

LE111A (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10666)

LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10663)
What could be the drawbacks of a too powerful woofer ?Potentially increased midrange output at the expensive of low frequency output. In this particular case though it is the difference in output in those 4313/L110/L96 boxes.
Not so easy to do, I am afraid.I believe LRBacon can comment. I think he currently has both. It's been years and years since I had any LE111A's.
Excuse me but I am not an expert. What are kits ?Recone kits.
As I said the enclosure, mid, tweeter and crossover are those of the L110A. Woofer are spare LE111H.Sounds good to me.

[LRBacon]

LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10663)Potentially increased midrange output at the expensive of low frequency output. In this particular case though it is the difference in output in those 4313/L110/L96 boxes.I believe LRBacon can comment. I think he currently has both. It's been years and years since I had any LE111A's.Recone kits.Sounds good to me.

After listening to the two different models I would have to say that the LE111A has a tendency to make the upper bass and lower midrange a little more pronounced than the LE111H. In other words, the LE111H is more neutral or accurate transducer. The L110A was an improvement over the L110, otherwise why change a good thing.

An explanation for Beppe; a recone kit , correct me if I am wrong, Giskard, includes a new cone with surround, voice coil, spider and dust cap.

[4313B]

Here's a quick graph. GRN is LE111A.

[coherent_guy]

Whoops!!! I keep seeing L110 when you write L110A. I hope I have not confused you Beppe, I sure have been, sorry mi amico!!! :blink:

[beppe61]

For certain applications yes. The LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H has more area under the curve than the LE111A in those 4313/L110/L96 boxes.
LE111A (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10666)
LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=10663)Potentially increased midrange output at the expensive of low frequency output. In this particular case though it is the difference in output in those 4313/L110/L96 boxes.I believe LRBacon can comment. I think he currently has both.
It's been years and years since I had any LE111A's.
Recone kits.Sounds good to me.

Thank you sincerely Sir. Very kind of you.
I could not hope in a more complete explanation of this one.
My kindest regards,

beppe

[coherent_guy]

Here's a quick graph. GRN is LE111A.

Giskard, nice graphs. May I inquire, are those simulations of the drivers in L110 size enclosures, or something else? Interesting that the LE111A rolls off earlier than the LE111H in the bass although the '111A has a lower Fs. Could the '111A use a larger enclosure than the L110 provides for greater LF extension? The LE111A and LE111H seem to be rather different animals despite their very similar designations. I wonder how an LE111H cone/VC would do in an LE111A motor?

[4313B]

The simulation is in an L96 box.

[grumpy]

I wonder how an LE111H cone/VC would do in an LE111A motor?

One could try something like WinISD (free) and find out (-10g "added" mass, perhaps?)
-grumpy

[beppe61]

Whoops!!! I keep seeing L110 when you write L110A.
I hope I have not confused you Beppe, I sure have been, sorry mi amico!!! :blink:

No problem at all.;)
Thanks very much again.
My best wishes,

beppe:D

[beppe61]

Here's a quick graph. GRN is LE111A.

Please excuse me Mr Giskard.
Green is the LE111A and red is the LE111H ?
If so, the LE111H is very linear indeed.
Thanks a lot.
Kind regards,

beppe

[4313B]

Green is the LE111A and red is the LE111H ?Yes.

[LRBacon]

The LE111A and LE111H seem to be rather different animals despite their very similar designations. I wonder how an LE111H cone/VC would do in an LE111A motor?

I will find out here in the near future. Giskard will be reconing a pair LE111A's with LE111H kits for me.

[coherent_guy]

Giskard,

Thanks for the screen images from Bass Box Pro.

But, I don't get it.

Bass Box Pro Design 1, for the LE111A: Box Properties Vb = 0.426 cu. ft.

Bass Box Pro Design 2, for the LE10H: Box Properties Vb = 1.706 cu. ft.

So, do the screen images correspond with the the curves you provided earlier? Or are they a new "suggested" design by Bass Box? I'm just confused given your statement that the curves were based on the L96 enclosure. I don't understand why the Vb values are different. Thanks for posting all this information.

Grumpy,

Good idea about WinISD. Yes, the '111H has less moving mass, the '111A has 121 turns of wire on the VC, compared to 86 for the '111H.

Beppe,

I'm glad you knew better, I know you are much sharper than you give yourself credit for on this forum!!

LRBacon,

You sure are right about the improvement in the L110A, the LE111H certainly was not simply a non-alnico replacement driver. Regarding the recone of the LE111A motor with a LE111H cone, I'd like to hear how that turns out. Is the LE111H cone the only one available now? My LE111A's were reconed about 15 years ago, and I'm considering a fresh recone, but I'd like to preserve the LE111A as it was originally if possible.

[grumpy]

Yes, the '111H has less moving mass, the '111A has 121 turns of wire on the VC, compared to 86 for the '111H.Ah... have to tweak a few more parameters then...

(if I did this even close to right, you get extended response and a slight loss of efficiency
... if not, I'd be interested to know what I goofed on) Plot is for modeled LE10H (green)
vs. LE111A motor w/ LE1*H cone assy (blue), in the same vol/tuned box -grumpy

[4313B]

Giskard,

Thanks for the screen images from Bass Box Pro.

But, I don't get it.

Bass Box Pro Design 1, for the LE111A: Box Properties Vb = 0.426 cu. ft.

Bass Box Pro Design 2, for the LE10H: Box Properties Vb = 1.706 cu. ft.

So, do the screen images correspond with the the curves you provided earlier? Or are they a new "suggested" design by Bass Box? I'm just confused given your statement that the curves were based on the L96 enclosure. I don't understand why the Vb values are different. Thanks for posting all this information.The curves are from both drivers in the L96 box. The Design suggestions are what BB6P wants to do with the drivers using the "High Fidelity" selection. In other words, BB6P wants to put an LE10H/LE10H-1/LE111H in an L110/L96 sized box and it wants to put the LE111A in a much smaller box based on each driver's TS parameters.

[LRBacon]

LRBacon,

You sure are right about the improvement in the L110A, the LE111H certainly was not simply a non-alnico replacement driver. Regarding the recone of the LE111A motor with a LE111H cone, I'd like to hear how that turns out. Is the LE111H cone the only one available now? My LE111A's were reconed about 15 years ago, and I'm considering a fresh recone, but I'd like to preserve the LE111A as it was originally if possible.

As far as I know the LE111A recone kits are still available. They retail for $26 more a piece than the LE111H kits. I went with the LE111H kits since they were cheaper and should sound the same as an original LE111H.

Larry

[beppe61]

Yes.

Thank you sincerely Mr Giskard, a very thorough explanation.
I am always amazed by the power of these simulation softwares.
Very powerful and valuable tools indeed !
Thank you very much again for your kindness.

Kind regards,

beppe

[beppe61]

....
Beppe,
I'm glad you knew better, I know you are much sharper than you give yourself credit for on this forum!!
.....

Thank you very much Sir, very kind of you.:)
Honestly and unfortunately I am very stubborn and this character is not an evidence of sharpness, I am afraid.:(
Just think of this, I am very bad at maths, nevertheless I wanted to be an engineer. :bouncy:
I liked electronics above all other field but too full of maths.
So I studied chemical engineering and actually took the degree.
With a lot of efforts and so so results, I have to say.:o:
All in all this is the my greatest regret.
I sincerely wanted to be a designer, and audio designer to precise.
But you know, we usually want what we cannot get.
And maybe when we get it, we do not want it anymore.
In another life, hopefully, I will be an Einstein :p !

Thanks again and kind regards,

beppe:D

[grumpy]

bump. edited post #67. -grumpy
(sorry for the virtual GOTO)

[LRBacon]

Ah... have to tweak a few more parameters then...

(if I did this even close to right, you get extended response and a slight loss of efficiency
... if not, I'd be interested to know what I goofed on) Plot is for modeled LE10H (green)
vs. LE111A motor w/ LE1*H cone assy (blue), in the same vol/tuned box -grumpy


They come out fairly close don't they?

:)

[coherent_guy]

Giskard

Thanks, I get it now. Did you run the simulation of the LE111A in the suggested box? I'm curious how that turned out. If it's a pain, don't bother posting the screen shot of that.

Larry

Thanks, I should probably recone them now before JBL stops selling the recone kit, I doubt there are that many LE111A's out there. Given the LE111H is an improvement over the LE111A (dang it!) why would you go with anything else? ;)

Beppe

A chemical engineering degree? Oh sure, any dummy can do that! ;)

Grumpy

Thanks, that curve looks improved over the regular LE111A driver.

Speaking of specs, the Xmax of 6.1mm sure is nothing to brag about. The surround on the cone is small and fits that spec. I've had a weird thing happen with my L110's, on a certain song on a Jazz sampler CD, there is a very low frequency synthesizer tone that at high volume levels causes the LE111A voice coil to move out of the VC gap and get caught on the top plate (? pole piece?) and just stops there! Freaked me out! I pushed the cone sideways (ugh!) and it popped back into place and seems to play Ok, but I've never seen this happen before with any driver. Has anyone else experienced this with any woofer? Is there a term for this phenomenon? (besides owner stupidity :blink: ) This happend with a 100 Watt/channel Adcom amp.

[Zilch]

Not a good thing.

Note voice coil damage here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=139740&highlight=Acoustic+Suspension#post139740

[coherent_guy]

Not a good thing.

Note voice coil damage here:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=139740&highlight=Acoustic+Suspension#post139740

An epic effort on that woofers part, I salute her! Thanks for the pic, and interesting thread too. In my case, by some miracle the cone did not fail and the lower edge of the VC did not seem to get knicked, bent, or gouged, or at least not enough to rub in the VC gap. Considering the small roll on the surround and that the surround was not visibly damaged by the over-excursion, the VC height of a LE111A must be rather short, I guess. How did they fit all those turns of wire on there? Is there a spec for VC height?

[Zilch]

How did they fit all those turns of wire on there? Is there a spec for VC height?The 2213 shown is double-layer flatwound....

[beppe61]

....
Beppe
A chemical engineering degree? Oh sure, any dummy can do that! ;)
.....

Dear Sir,
I did not mean " any dummy ". :o:
Actually I meant " any stubborn dummy can do that relying on the teachers' mercy. After all they are humans ".:D

Kind regards,

beppe