2425H suitability?

[Alien_Shore]

I was looking through my closet the other day and found a 2425H driver.
How suitable would this be for a hi fi application?

[1audiohack]

JBL used them in the 4430 and their flagship of the day 4435 studio monitors so I would say "quite suitable." :)

[Alien_Shore]

Thanks for the tip. A pair (with 2344 horns) came up this week on fleabay and were gone by the time I got home from work to take a closer look! Hot little items, apparently! I'll keep looking, I suppose these things come up pretty often.

For all you JBL horn experts, is the 2344 better/worse than the 2370 for home hi/fi application?

[1audiohack]

Better I would say and I have both. There are far worse horns than 2370's however. Sometimes you can find 2370's for almost free, 2344's are showing up less often and command higher and higher prices it seems.

[Ruediger]

... as the 2344 is not so easy to crossover prperly.

Ruediger

[toddalin]

But they do show up.

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/msg/3183816073.html

[ivica]

Better I would say and I have both. There are far worse horns than 2370's however. Sometimes you can find 2370's for almost free, 2344's are showing up less often and command higher and higher prices it seems.

Please, some words in comparison these two with the combo 2312+2308

Regards,
Ivica

[DogBox]

There are far worse horns than 2370's however...
So, if you weren't able to use 2425's; how would things 'be' using a 2470/2307/2308 set up? Or the 2470 and 2312/2308 as mentioned??
With drivers getting harder to get, how do you not denegrate the sound when you can't get the originals??? :(

DogBox :confused:

[1audiohack]

Hi ivica and DogBox;

I have never had 2312's or 2470's.

I still have one 2307 and a pair of 2311's and some 2308's but it's been so long since I had them in a system I couldn't tell you anything of value other than when I first got a pair of 2344's I thought them to be clear winners over the 2425/2307-2308 (tel:2425/2307-2308) combinations in my living room. But as has been noted the electical integration of the 2344 is much more involved. I want to take a voltage drive measurment of all the passbands of my 4435's to see if I can improve the sound of the other 2344's that I have elsewhere. When I do that I will be sure to post the measurements. It is a ways back on the project list however.

I will say that I still like the 2311/2441-2308 (tel:2311/2441-2308) combination with aluminum diaphragms and talk about an easy implementation, all by themselves they are quite well behaved up to 15-16kHz. I think you would be less likely to miss a tweeter with this combination than with a 2470/2312 or 2470/2307 which if I remember right pretty much shut off at about 8 kHz or so. That makes for a pretty narrow range combination as I personally wouldn't use a 2307 below 1200Hz.

I don't know if any of that helps, probably not. :(

DogBox are even 2425-2426's hard to come by there?

One thing I have been thinking about is making 1.5" entry replacement throats in order to use 435Al's on the 2344's. I just need two of me. :)

[ivica]

Hi ivica and DogBox;

I have never had 2312's or 2470's.

I still have one 2307 and a pair of 2311's and some 2308's but it's been so long since I had them in a system I couldn't tell you anything of value other than when I first got a pair of 2344's I thought them to be clear winners over the 2425/2307-2308 (tel:2425/2307-2308) combinations in my living room. But as has been noted the electical integration of the 2344 is much more involved. I want to take a voltage drive measurment of all the passbands of my 4435's to see if I can improve the sound of the other 2344's that I have elsewhere. When I do that I will be sure to post the measurements. It is a ways back on the project list however.

I will say that I still like the 2311/2441-2308 (tel:2311/2441-2308) combination with aluminum diaphragms and talk about an easy implementation, all by themselves they are quite well behaved up to 15-16kHz. I think you would be less likely to miss a tweeter with this combination than with a 2470/2312 or 2470/2307 which if I remember right pretty much shut off at about 8 kHz or so. That makes for a pretty narrow range combination as I personally wouldn't use a 2307 below 1200Hz.

I don't know if any of that helps, probably not. :(




......:)


Many thanks 1audiohack, for your comments about 2311+2308 with 2441-AL
I have 2421-TI with 2312+2308, in 156L box with 2235 and 2405 combination, but I want to put 2450-TI with 2311+2308 instead, my be one day E110 as mid-bass, so any experience with such combination are well-come.
Parallel with that I want to make horn based on H66000/H9900/H4365 experience that are 2344 followers , each , on my opinion, are 'bi-radial' horns with the diffraction slot in the horn throat, but as I have 'old school' driver with built-in 3-inch 'slow-flare' horn I am waring about what kind of network 'compensations' has to be implemented in order to get usable results.

Best Regards
Ivica

[DogBox]

Hi Ivica & 1audiohack,
Unfortunately i'm not far enough ahead to progress to 2" throat drivers as Ivica is.. I'm a "work still in progress..!"
Scraping what parts I can afford [& then, even when I cant afford- what the heck..!] to do a 4343/4344 build.

I posed my question in a 'round-about-sort-of-way' to try and find out if I could use the 2470 "with" phenolic diaphragm and
still top it with the 2405's? ..or, eventually do a diaphragm change and put in a 2420 dia. in the 2470..?
I have some very sad 2225's with who knows what cones in them, I can redo with 2235's.

So as we continually try and save up, for the 2405's and however I can assemble something for the 10" [E110-reconed 2121,or
something, 2123's- although I hear they aren't such a good idea as a replacement...?] is where we're at!

I really enjoy the information and extensive knowledge from this forum/site- you guys [& gals!] are something else!!!:D
:applaud: Thanks!
DogBox

[1audiohack]

Hi DogBox;

I see no reason you couldn't use the 2470 with a 2405. I've heard phenolic drivers that sound great, I just have never knowingly heard 2470's.

So, what do you have in the way of parts for this project?

Barry.

[ivica]

Hi Ivica & 1audiohack,
Unfortunately i'm not far enough ahead to progress to 2" throat drivers as Ivica is.. I'm a "work still in progress..!"
Scraping what parts I can afford [& then, even when I cant afford- what the heck..!] to do a 4343/4344 build.

I posed my question in a 'round-about-sort-of-way' to try and find out if I could use the 2470 "with" phenolic diaphragm and
still top it with the 2405's? ..or, eventually do a diaphragm change and put in a 2420 dia. in the 2470..?
I have some very sad 2225's with who knows what cones in them, I can redo with 2235's.

So as we continually try and save up, for the 2405's and however I can assemble something for the 10" [E110-reconed 2121,or
something, 2123's- although I hear they aren't such a good idea as a replacement...?] is where we're at!

I really enjoy the information and extensive knowledge from this forum/site- you guys [& gals!] are something else!!!:D
:applaud: Thanks!
DogBox

Hi DogBox,

I think that mentioned 2470 with 2312 or 2307 with 2308 lenses, would sound nice with 2405. My be some small adjustment of the "low-pass" network section for 2470 (around 8kHz) can compensate possible less Hi-frequency response, but 2405 is suggested to be used over 8kHz.
Regards
Ivica

[DogBox]

Well, my parts list is taking for ages to grow; however, we have&nbsp;a pair of&nbsp;2470 with phenolic's as mentioned, two pairs of 2307, a set of 2308 lenses and&nbsp;3 &amp; 3/4 2555's with dodgy recones... I say "&amp; 3/4" as one of the four has its spider only partly glued to the magnet assembly and <br>makes a weird noise when played through. These are [well, at least "two"] all heading for 2235 recones when finances allow.&nbsp;<br>Be nice to have a closet like Alien_Shore and be able to find stuff like compression drivers!!! <img id="vB_Editor_001_smilie_78" title="Crying" border="0" alt=":crying:" src="http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/cryingsmiley.gif">&nbsp; <br>Ah well, the 4343/4344 will get there eventually. <br>I used to live next door to a guy that first introduced me 'to' JBL, although I had always been interested in the speaker building craft... <br>He built his own [and was selling them] design based on the 4350 but with only "one" 15" low; 12" mid; 2" compression high and 2405 slots up top, in a cabinet a bit wider than the 4343. They did sound spectacular though!&nbsp; I was thinking of trying to re-do that design until I saw the <br>4343 and then found the 4344... AND you guys! Info galore! Love it!!!&nbsp;<img id="vB_Editor_001_smilie_4" title="Big Grin" border="0" alt=":D" src="http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif">&nbsp;<br><br>DogBox<br><br>Steve

[DogBox]

I hope you can make something out of that last post :eek: I lost my internet connection :banghead: looks great as my only fourth reply :crying:

Steve

[ivica]

Well, my parts list is taking for ages to grow; however, we have&nbsp;a pair of&nbsp;2470 with phenolic's as mentioned, two pairs of 2307, a set of 2308 lenses and&nbsp;3 &amp; 3/4 2555's with dodgy recones... I say "&amp; 3/4" as one of the four has its spider only partly glued to the magnet assembly and <br>makes a weird noise when played through. These are [well, at least "two"] all heading for 2235 recones when finances allow.&nbsp;<br>Be nice to have a closet like Alien_Shore and be able to find stuff like compression drivers!!! <img id="vB_Editor_001_smilie_78" title="Crying" border="0" alt=":crying:" src="http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/cryingsmiley.gif">&nbsp; <br>Ah well, the 4343/4344 will get there eventually. <br>I used to live next door to a guy that first introduced me 'to' JBL, although I had always been interested in the speaker building craft... <br>He built his own [and was selling them] design based on the 4350 but with only "one" 15" low; 12" mid; 2" compression high and 2405 slots up top, in a cabinet a bit wider than the 4343. They did sound spectacular though!&nbsp; I was thinking of trying to re-do that design until I saw the <br>4343 and then found the 4344... AND you guys! Info galore! Love it!!!&nbsp;<img id="vB_Editor_001_smilie_4" title="Big Grin" border="0" alt=":D" src="http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif">&nbsp;<br><br>DogBox<br><br>Steve


Hi Steve,

As I have understood You have:
- 4x 2225 (or 2235) drivers,
- 2x 2470 drivers,
- 2x 2307 horns,
- 2x 2308 lenses,
- 2x 2405 drivers.

My be care opening of the bass drivers, and cleaning and re-gluing would be enough,
but work on the network has not to be " depreciated ", and careful measurements too.

Regards Ivica

[DogBox]

Hi Ivica,
Because of that bad post, my list is: 4x 2225 badly reconed, 1 needing the spider re-glued...
2 x 2470 phenolic diaphragm
4 x 2307 horns
2 x 2308 lenses
10" & 2405's to get and I will construct my own networks as per 3143 schematic.
Now this damn modem has me worried. maybe just keep my posts short. :)

DogBox

[ivica]

Hi Ivica,
Because of that bad post, my list is: 4x 2225 badly reconed, 1 needing the spider re-glued...
2 x 2470 phenolic diaphragm
4 x 2307 horns
2 x 2308 lenses
10" & 2405's to get and I will construct my own networks as per 3143 schematic.
Now this damn modem has me worried. maybe just keep my posts short. :)

DogBox

Hi DogBox,

may be with 2 x 2225 per box, 10inch mid-bass is not 'a must', but 2405 is.
Owing to, using two bass some ideas from 4350/4355 or Everest II D66000 would be well-come in creating cross-over network, especially for bass and mid-bass region (say below 800Hz), and for over 800, 3145 is good example....

Regards
Ivica

[DogBox]

Hi Ivica,


4350's are too big for me! 4343/4344 will be plenty for me to play with! :)
So, the 10" IS on the list as well... I just have to be patient- they will come....

DogBox

[Steve]

[ivica]

Hi Ivica,


4350's are too big for me! 4343/4344 will be plenty for me to play with! :)
So, the 10" IS on the list as well... I just have to be patient- they will come....

DogBox

[Steve]

I have no idea what would be the difference between mentioned 4343 and appropriated volume box for two 2225
drivers, but I think the differences in dimensions would not be too much

Regards
Ivica

[DogBox]

Hi Ivica,
For double 2225's, the JBL PROFESSIONAL ENCLOSURE GUIDE suggests 'for general purpose low-end': 8.0 cu.ft. (225 litres)
The 4343, going by the spec sheets, (incl. Midrange Chamber) is: 6.0 cu.ft. (170 litres) ..so for comprison..
the 4345 has a total of 264 all up [but using an 18"] and the 4350 low frequency volume only (2x 2231H) is: 9.5 cu.ft. (265 litres)
Did I mention that the 2225's that I got were 2nd hand, and (VERY BADLY!!) reconed? Not the sort of things to show in a cabinet
without grills.. [and you'd be too afraid to take them off if you had them covered!]
:blink:

Steve

[ivica]

Hi Ivica,
For double 2225's, the JBL PROFESSIONAL ENCLOSURE GUIDE suggests 'for general purpose low-end': 8.0 cu.ft. (225 litres)
The 4343, going by the spec sheets, (incl. Midrange Chamber) is: 6.0 cu.ft. (170 litres) ..so for comprison..
the 4345 has a total of 264 all up [but using an 18"] and the 4350 low frequency volume only (2x 2231H) is: 9.5 cu.ft. (265 litres)
Did I mention that the 2225's that I got were 2nd hand, and (VERY BADLY!!) reconed? Not the sort of things to show in a cabinet
without grills.. [and you'd be too afraid to take them off if you had them covered!]

Steve

Hi Steve,

Here one thing has to be aware, so called 'mutual coupling of two nearby bass drivers' has to be included in the calculation,
so I believe that more deeper box then 4343 would 'easily' reach about 200L what would be , on my opinion, OK.
Unfortunately most of the box-calculation programs do not include such drivers coupling.
Regards
Ivica

[badman]

The "Mutual Coupling" is just a way of saying that twice the cone area will be twice as efficient, until spacing becomes significant and destructive interference due to path-length differences begins affecting things. In other words, 2 drivers in parallel- 3dB from a doubling of current, 3dB from mutual coupling, +6dB sensitivity.
Hi Steve,Here one thing has to be aware, so called 'mutual coupling of two nearby bass drivers' has to be included in the calculation,so I believe that more deeper box then 4343 would 'easily' reach about 200L what would be , on my opinion, OK.Unfortunately most of the box-calculation programs do not include such drivers coupling.RegardsIvica

[ivica]

The "Mutual Coupling" is just a way of saying that twice the cone area will be twice as efficient, until spacing becomes significant and destructive interference due to path-length differences begins affecting things. In other words, 2 drivers in parallel- 3dB from a doubling of current, 3dB from mutual coupling, +6dB sensitivity.

Hi BADMAN,

I totally agree with You, so with the proper networks to each of the bass driver ( say something like Ev2- DD66000 has been done, practically using one of the bass driver 'only' up to -say 150 Hz ),
quite a good low-frequency response can be get in 'acceptable' box size, with the driver, as used as a single-driver, would not produce so low-frequency response,
Mentioned +6dB rise in ULF region can 'compensate' drivers (alone) 'inability'.

More can be find in:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33206-4355-evnts-plans&p=335992&viewfull=1#post335992


Regards
Ivica

[DogBox]

quite a good low-frequency response can be get in 'acceptable' box size....
Regards
Ivica

Hi Ivica,
Absolutely! I just don't have enough 'physical' room to fit boxes with two bass drivers, no matter if I DO get +6dB however 'acceptable' their box size may be..!
With the huge amount of reading that I have done over the last month or so, I did come accross an article in the library where the subject of "mutual coupling" came up, and I also thought the 4350 & 4455 units were mentioned... In both cases, the use of the second driver was positioned within 'close' proximity to the other and was optioned in to obtain the gain in SPL [already mentioned]. Another reason why the MTM configuration [along with a proper 18dB slope C/O] works so well. (if you're into that sort of thing...?? great for centre channels; if you're into THAT type of thing!) Interesting to see another contributor [whose name escapes me, in Switzerland, I think] turned the 4350 on it's side and moved the position of the drivers to keep box volumes and C/O's the same... beautiful build! He had a "space" problem too!..but was able to get around it. I am finding more and more, that, the designs of the JBL range and the drivers used- the amount and types and baffle placement, a real tutorial into speaker design. No wonder I spend so much time... "down the library...!!";)

Steve

[Alien_Shore]

Holy Hijack Batman! :)

I'm still looking for a pair of 2344. Does anyone happen to know how the 2425 compares to the B&C DE250?

[Don Mascali]

I have dealt with these guys before. You have to talk to them to determine quality and availability at the time.


http://www.jamminjersey.com/speakers.php?prod=jblcomp#Horns

SCU217 JBL 2344 Bi-Radial Constant Coverage Horns, 1" Throat - Factory 2 piece models feature dense plastic flared fronts with flat mounting lips, metal throats, 100 x 100 dispersion. 1000 cycle cutoff frequency. Excellent condition. One pair available. $350

[toddalin]

Holy Hijack Batman! :)

I'm still looking for a pair of 2344. Does anyone happen to know how the 2425 compares to the B&C DE250?



These have been on Orange County C/L for over a month.
http://images.craigslist.org/5L75G45K13La3Fc3M1c848c6e9b9c8cbb12c0.jpg

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/msg/3183816073.html

[Don Mascali]

That sounds like a killer deal. I don't think the horns would be hard to fix up. I prefer the one piece horns too.

[frank23]

Fwiw, I have been using 2307/2308 and 2344 with the 2420 for a decade and have compared them over the years to 2440 (with titanium diaphragms) +2380 and the beryllium 2435 on pth1010 waveguides. All in my living room. My favorite is still the 2420/2344 combination. I sold the rest except for the 2307/2308 for nostalgic reasons. I play active and have the M553 active crossover set for CD compensation, which does not fully compensate, for the 2344 dropoff but does it good enough in my setup.

I heard the 2370 once on the 2425 and did not like it one bit. It beams way too much (only 21 degr at 16kHz, lower also) and has a kind of shelve above 4kHz that is not a simple CD dropoff.

[Alien_Shore]

That sounds like a killer deal. I don't think the horns would be hard to fix up. I prefer the one piece horns too.

Yeah, I got hold of the seller out there in California a while back. They're local pickup only/cash only. He didn't want to talk about shipping at all. :(

[DogBox]

Holy Hijack Batman! :) .......!!!!

Sorry Alien_Shore, my Bad... :blink: Think the 2370 horns got mixed up with 2470 drivers... and got carried away... Sorry.
Have to watch my manners and not get so excited..




Steve :crying:

[Alien_Shore]

Hah! No problem Steve. It's all good info being exchanged.

[4313B]

Fwiw, I have been using 2307/2308 and 2344 with the 2420 for a decade and have compared them over the years to 2440 (with titanium diaphragms) +2380 and the beryllium 2435 on pth1010 waveguides. All in my living room. My favorite is still the 2420/2344 combination. I sold the rest except for the 2307/2308 for nostalgic reasons. I play active and have the M553 active crossover set for CD compensation, which does not fully compensate, for the 2344 dropoff but does it good enough in my setup.Interesting. I always enjoyed my 2344/2425H combo in the 4430. But I never really beat the unholy crap out of them like some folks do who complain about their strident howling.

I'm kind of convinced that the 2435 only works well on the Array horn.

I have yet to try the 2450SL on the PTH1010 (I'll be trying the 476Be as that is all I have on hand at present).
I heard the 2370 once on the 2425 and did not like it one bit. It beams way too much (only 21 degr at 16kHz, lower also) and has a kind of shelve above 4kHz that is not a simple CD dropoff.I ran that combo for about six months in my living room. Pretty nasty actually.

[4313B]

I have yet to try the 2450SL on the PTH1010 (I'll be trying the 476Be as that is all I have on hand at present).I'm afraid it's not good news. It appears the horn is not available. It has been over a year since we have had it in stock.
I apologize for not getting in touch sooner.

:rotfl:

It works out well, I didn't have time for it anyway.

[badman]

These have been on Orange County C/L for over a month.
http://images.craigslist.org/5L75G45K13La3Fc3M1c848c6e9b9c8cbb12c0.jpg

http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/msg/3183816073.html

These horns got sold, and he was asking $150 per piece- that's drivers and horns, $600 total. Still reasonable but not the screaming deal it looked like. He still has the drivers and is asking $160 per.

[pos]

I'm kind of convinced that the 2435 only works well on the Array horn.
That has also been my experience (H9800). When put horizontally it is also quite good, but the directivity tends to collapse more rapidely above 10khz (due to the poor phasing plug of the 2435).
The array horn is really close to a 2344...


I have yet to try the 2450SL on the PTH1010 (I'll be trying the 476Be as that is all I have on hand at present)
I can fix that if you want, lets to a swap :D

[Robh3606]

I'm kind of convinced that the 2435 only works well on the Array horn.

Hello 4313B

I am pretty happy with it on the PTH1010. Shame you can't get them anymore. Takes a couple of notch filters and you have to cross them high so great for a 3 way not so good as a two way. That was always the problem with any of the PT waveguides, high crossover point. Granted not as good as the Array but still quite listen-able.



The array horn is really close to a 2344...


Hello Pos
Yes it is you can drop them right in the same baffle cut out.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Hello 4313B

I am pretty happy with it on the PTH1010. Shame you can't get them anymore. Takes a couple of notch filters and you have to cross them high so great for a 3 way not so good as a two way. That was always the problem with any of the PT waveguides, high crossover point. Granted not as good as the Array but still quite listen-able.




Hello Pos
Yes it is you can drop them right in the same baffle cut out.

Rob:)These JBL PT waveguides all seem good down to around 1300 Hz. I don't see how one can use them with a fifteen the way JBL used the 2344 with the 2235.

Have either of you played around with terminating the sides using a round over (~ 2.6 inches for 1300 Hz for example)?

I'm not sure of the exact reason JBL did away with the 100 x 100 guides. Probably not enough call for them in SR.


That has also been my experience (H9800). When put horizontally it is also quite good, but the directivity tends to collapse more rapidely above 10khz (due to the poor phasing plug of the 2435).Yeah, I really don't know which came first, the 435Be on the H9800 or the 2435 on a waveguide. Doug wasn't real keen on discussing the phasing plug issue and I didn't care enough to press it. We basically left the discussion at "it works fine on some horns/waveguides and not others".

[pos]

Have either of you played around with terminating the sides using a round over (~ 2.8 inches for 1200 Hz for example)? I was thinking about buying some 3-inch rounds from that place you bought your 2-inch rounds from Rob.
I was toying with the idea of using the PT waveguide as the throat of a big horn, like the two-part assembly of some of the recent JBL consumer biradials. The rectangular 100x100 would probably be the best candidate for this, as it is really short and does not enforce much "shape" on the veritcal plan (contrary to the rectangular 90x50).
The big horn could be a simple conical or radial, and its geometry would not be really critical: the "throat" (the PT waveguide) would handle the critical part, and the rest of the big horn would only serve to maintain directivity lower.

[eso]

While not really germane to where the thread has gone, the 2425 drivers where used with a PAS 15" to create the coax that was the core of the Urei "B" series studio monitors. So I'd say they can be fully suitable for HiFi uses.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/4500648/Audio/801B%20pair.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1qsLe5Eokg


eso

[4313B]

The 2425 was used in the DD55000 Everest along with an E145 variant and a 2405.

[ivica]

Hi Ivica,
Absolutely! I just don't have enough 'physical' room to fit boxes with two bass drivers, no matter if I DO get +6dB however 'acceptable' their box size may be..!


Steve

Hi Steve,

One possible solution is to recone 2225 with C8R2235 recone kits, and you can get almost 2235H driver, so some thing like 4333 can be realized.

regards
Ivica