DAC question

[kartsmart]

from what I have read Dac,s do not sound alike , soft, punchy , soundstage , narrow, wide ? for the equipment I have what would work good in the $ 1000-1500 range .


I-mac for music server
4345 mains
3 crown ps400 amps 2- bridged- for bass 1-for upper range
3155 cc networks

[BMWCCA]

I'm curious, too.

Maybe five or six of these? ;) http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/processors/products/xda1
55961

[richluvsound]

I have used the MSB dec..... $ 6K and now I use this http://www.m2tech.biz/young.asp Is there a better DAC for the money ?
I have not found one .

The only downfall is the lack of remote ,but there are ways around this . I love the sound ,or lack of it . I use Pass designed mono blocks and an older Bryston pre, K2 inspired clones, MBP and full bit rips ...... wonderful , I'm very happy .

Maybe get one for a home demo and give it a try .

Rich

[jerry_rig]

I would look at the newer generation of USB DACs that support 192K/24Bit natively with OSX. Some even support DSD. You may want to browse the Computer Audiophile forum for some ideas.

[richluvsound]

I would look at the newer generation of USB DACs that support 192K/24Bit natively with OSX. Some even support DSD. You may want to browse the Computer Audiophile forum for some ideas.


There is a significant improvement when using USB .... :)

[kartsmart]

There is a significant improvement when using USB .... :)


There seems to be some debate firewire VRs usb , Not so much as in preformance but cost of cable's ,Firewire can use a cheep cable where usb will need a quality cable , Is this true ?

[Mr. Widget]

There seems to be some debate firewire VRs usb , Not so much as in preformance but cost of cable's ,Firewire can use a cheep cable where usb will need a quality cable , Is this true ?...and HDMI, some of the newest DACs will accept HDMI. I've heard using the HDMI port of a MAC will give you the best sound. It seems there are as many variables here are there are with analog.

I am sure a lot is opinion and no doubt there is a lot of snake-oil in the digital arena just as there is in the audio world in general.

My personal experience is rather limited, but the better DACs do seem worth it to me. I've only used optical and RCA S/PDIF coaxial cables, but there are audible differences here. (At least with my Bryston DAC)

I'd carefully scour the threads on the http://www.computeraudiophile.com/ site and take it all with multiple grains of salt.


Keep us posted.


Widget

[jerry_rig]

I've heard using the HDMI port of a MAC will give you the best sound.
Widget

Hmm, I have NEVER heard this. If it were true, I would expect to see many more HDMI-centric DACs. What models were you referring to?

[richluvsound]

@ Widget ,

Interesting ..... where is the HDMI output on a Mac ? I use Display ( monitor ) to HDMI cable to my TV ... is this what you mean ?

@ kartsmart , BS, in my experience . USB cable with decent connectors is not an expensive cable and I find the sound very good Not the same as a direct SPIF from the my transport ,but quite adequate for my needs.

To be honest , the only way to find out is to get a dec and experiment :)

Rich

[rusty jefferson]

I'd carefully scour the threads on the http://www.computeraudiophile.com/ site and take it all with multiple grains of salt.


Keep us posted.


Widget

Excellent advice. There are so many variables to good computer based sound it's scary.

My first question would be if you're planning on using itunes as your media player? If you are, don't waste $1500 on a dac. A higher quality application is necessary. For Mac, I believe the 2 primary choices are Amarra http://www.sonicstudio.com/amarra/amarra_player.html and Pure Music http://www.channld.com/puremusic/ . For PC, JRiver is the go to player. Even if you aren't ready for high rez files, these programs will improve the sound of your 16/44 lossless files.

The next big issue is usb versus s/pdif. Although usb is simpler and a much neater installation, I believe there is a general consensus that until you get into the most expensive dacs, s/pdif does sound better. Recent listening tests done by myself and 2 friends on each of our systems is confirming this to us. The thing that surprised us the most was how much difference there was in usb to s/pdif converters. Here's what sounded the best to us. The M2 Tech Evo http://www.m2tech.biz/evo.html but only when used with the M2 tech Evo power supply http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_supply.html or the Boulder Cable Co power supply http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/-strse-395/"Standard"-Linear-Power-Supply/Detail (http://www.boldercables.com/servlet/-strse-395/). I know it seems crazy to purchase a power supply that costs as much or more than the converter, but it's critical.

If you purchased the Evo and the power supply, you'd have $1000 invested. I believe starting with that and whatever dac you can afford at that point (even 16/44) will be a better way to go than usb. I think Hi-Fi Man makes a couple of portable players that can access the dac via s/pdif, as well as some older cd players that have aux. inputs for s/pdif. This is what I'm currently doing in my system. The dac in my cd player is capable of 24/96 files, native 16/44 files, hdcd, and upsampling to 24/192. There is virtually no music except for limited classical titles available in 24/192. Many older dacs playing in 16/44 (tda 1541-1543) sound great if you give them a good s/pdif input.

I believe some of the newest dacs that may be using the hdmi input are actually carrying the I2s signal. I think when this gains momentum, I2s will be the go to cabling method. Some dacs like the M2 Tech Evo dac http://www.m2tech.biz/evo_dac.html have an I2s input (the Evo converter has an I2s output) as a cat 5 connector. PS Audio Perfect Wave uses hdmi for I2s connectivity http://www.psaudio.com/products/audio/media-players/perfectwave-dac/. In the next few months we'll be listening to the M2 Tech Evo via I2s, but haven't yet. We won't be able to afford trying the PS Audio, Berkley Audio, Lampizator priced dacs.

That said, Rich's Young dac or Widget's Bryston dac via usb are looking better. :)

[jerry_rig]

Rusty's comments are generally correct. But I don't think I2 is the future. Nor would I settle for the DAC section of a mid-priced CD player.

For the record, I had a Bryston BDA-1 DAC in my system for several months fed by the Audiophilleo 1 USB to S/PDIF converter -- quite a step up from the Hiface Evo converter, though I can't comment on the power supply mod. (You would not be happy with the Bryston's USB input.) I moved up to the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC (series 1), also using the Audiopilleo. The difference was notable, but not night and day. Now I am using the Playback Designs MPD-5 DAC with its own external USB-X converter. It can handle 384kHz/24 Bit and 6.1 MHz DSD files. This is a major leap in quality (and price) from the lessor DACs. I use a modified Mac Mini (all solid state drives) and Audirvana Plus, which many find surpasses Pure Music or Amarra in sound quality. I use a good, but not expensive USB cable. The MPD-5, along with the higher priced DCS units, is a highly resolving DAC that will match or exceed all but the best analogue sources. And it is clearly not in the price range you are considering.

The point is that computer audio is a very fluid technology. Given you have an iMac, I would recommend (as stated below) a good mid-priced USB DAC. I think you will find the results very satisfying. Best of luck!

[rusty jefferson]

Rusty's comments are generally correct. But I don't think I2 is the future. Nor would I settle for the DAC section of a mid-priced CD player.



Thanks Jerry. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear though. I wasn't suggesting a mid priced cd player for the dac. I was trying to keep the cost between $1000-1500. If he buys a converter/power supply for usb to s/pdif and has limited resources for the dac, an older 16/44 or 24/96 dac/cd player could be a good choice. My cd player/dac retailed for over $6k 5-6 years ago, but I bought it for about $1000 because it only plays native files to 24/96, and the guy who sold it was upgrading to 32 bit. Folks are selling off good quality (top of the line) 16/44 and 24/96 dacs pretty cheaply that sound great if your native files are 16/44 or 24/96, and you supply it a good s/pdif signal. I generally don't like upsampling and again, there's so little music of interest (to me) available above 24/96.

There is one obvious route here. The Evo converter, dac, and power supply. About $1500 for all 3 pieces. I know how good the converter/power supply sounds, but as I mentioned I haven't yet listened to the dac. That combo may sound better than a $1500 usb dac.

[JBLAddict]

anyone who's anything knows the Sabre DACs in the BDP-83SE are the final word in audio fidelity ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Hmm, I have NEVER heard this. If it were true, I would expect to see many more HDMI-centric DACs. What models were you referring to?The example that I have heard demonstrated was a Mac mini feeding a Mark Levinson DAC.

As for the USB solutions, I haven't tried any, but apparently there is a lot of variability there.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

anyone who's anything knows the Sabre DACs in the BDP-83SE are the final word in audio fidelity ;)You are joking... right?


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks Jerry. Sorry if I didn't make myself clear though. I wasn't suggesting a mid priced cd player for the dac. I was trying to keep the cost between $1000-1500. If he buys a converter/power supply for usb to s/pdif and has limited resources for the dac, an older 16/44 or 24/96 dac/cd player could be a good choice. My cd player/dac retailed for over $6k 5-6 years ago, but I bought it for about $1000 because it only plays native files to 24/96, and the guy who sold it was upgrading to 32 bit. Folks are selling off good quality (top of the line) 16/44 and 24/96 dacs pretty cheaply that sound great if your native files are 16/44 or 24/96, and you supply it a good s/pdif signal. I generally don't like upsampling and again, there's so little music of interest (to me) available above 24/96.
In general I'd avoid a player, but I think you are spot on about the deeply discounted recent high end players.


Widget

[JBLAddict]

You are joking... right?


Widget

The "wink" icon didn't give it away, eh?

I debated using the "big grin" or "stick out tongue" but apparently once again went the wrong direction :banghead:



In seriousness, I believe once upon a time you did a comparison of your Bryston to the Oppo and were fairly kind to the Oppo by comparison, no?