Is Mark Levinson Using JBL Drivers?

[audiomagnate]

I saw an interview on "Home Theater Geeks," one of Leo Laport's video podcasts, where Mark Levinson was pushing his M1 speakers for a cool $100K. 100dB at 1 watt. I met him in Chicago in 77 when he was selling the HQD system, but this new speaker looks worse than my butt ugly but great sounding SVA2100s. Does anybody know what drivers he's using? He makes some ridiculous statements in the podcast, equating speaker sensitivity to MP3 bit loss. Another hero bites the dust. He sounds brain damaged, and I'm being kind.

[gferrell]

Sheep's wool must be expensive these days!

[audiomagnate]

Sheep's wool must be expensive these days!

So you saw it? Maybe cashmere would justify $100K.

[edgewound]

I saw an interview on "Home Theater Geeks," one of Leo Laport's video podcasts, where Mark Levinson was pushing his M1 speakers for a cool $100K. 100dB at 1 watt. I met him in Chicago in 77 when he was selling the HQD system, but this new speaker looks worse than my butt ugly but great sounding SVA2100s. Does anybody know what drivers he's using? He makes some ridiculous statements in the podcast, equating speaker sensitivity to MP3 bit loss. Another hero bites the dust. He sounds brain damaged, and I'm being kind.

Brain damaged? Maybe you didn't understand or interpret his metaphor as he intended. BTW...I didn't listen to the podcast.

Have you ever played electric guitar through a 102dB sensitivity speaker vs. a 97dB sensitivity speaker through the same amp?

The higher sensitivity speaker will include harmonic and tactile nuances that the other will not. Sounds similar to a lossy MP3 to me. I guess interpretation can be related to your frames of reference, experientially.

YMMV.

[audiomagnate]

Brain damaged? Maybe you didn't understand or interpret his metaphor as he intended. BTW...I didn't listen to the podcast.

Have you ever played electric guitar through a 102dB sensitivity speaker vs. a 97dB sensitivity speaker through the same amp?

The higher sensitivity speaker will include harmonic and tactile nuances that the other will not. Sounds similar to a lossy MP3 to me. I guess interpretation can be related to your frames of reference, experientially.

YMMV.


He pauses between every single word, like someone who has had a stroke. As to low sensitivity hiding musical nuances, I'm just not buying it. I do believe some low efficiency speakers suffer from dynamic compression, and maybe that's what he's talking about.

[hjames]

See it for yourself - April 2nd, 2012
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/105

He doesn't seem to pause-between-every-single word ...
seems more like he speaks in word clusters, sentence chunks,
and thinks a bit as he goes forward ...

I have to run so I only listened to 7 minutes, but I didn't hear what you said you heard in that.

There is a very faint bit of stutter, but I sure wouldn't hammer the guy for that kind of thing.

[maxwedge]

Brain damaged? Maybe you didn't understand or interpret his metaphor as he intended. BTW...I didn't listen to the podcast.

Have you ever played electric guitar through a 102dB sensitivity speaker vs. a 97dB sensitivity speaker through the same amp?

The higher sensitivity speaker will include harmonic and tactile nuances that the other will not. Sounds similar to a lossy MP3 to me. I guess interpretation can be related to your frames of reference, experientially.

YMMV.
Depends on the amp.;)
Not for argument material but I MUCH prefer 4 (or 8!:D) Celestion greenbacks powered by a Marshal than JBL's. In a Fender Twin JBLs are good but I like Jensens too.:)

[audiomagnate]

OK, two or three words, and then a long pause. Very odd. I worshiped this guy when I was a kid. I bought his first preamp, I made my own HQD system, I met him at the Palmer House in Chicago. He sounds like he's been run over by a truck.

[gferrell]

Stainless steel baskets, stainless must have gone up a lot since the last time I checked.

[audiomagnate]

Stainless steel baskets, stainless must have gone up a lot since the last time I checked.

They're not stainless steel baskets, they're stainless steel glory holes.

[edgewound]

OK, two or three words, and then a long pause. Very odd. I worshiped this guy when I was a kid. I bought his first preamp, I made my own HQD system, I met him at the Palmer House in Chicago. He sounds like he's been run over by a truck.

Please share your thoughts with us about Stephen Hawking.

Mark Levinson's thoughts on being captivated by music and the emotion of it have much more to do with the actual music, performance and the art of recording it than the playback system.

The playback system is the bonus. Crap music played on the best system is still crap music.

He also said low efficiency speakers waste huge amounts information through heat. Makes sense to me.

And...Nelson Pass says the first watt is the most important. Mr. Pass is pretty well respected around here and I'd say he and Mark Levinson are in good company with each other.

Also, too...:p...Like Heather, I see a man with lots of thought in his brain and doing lots of pre-filtering before he actually speaks.

Did you know Mark Levinson is also into cosmetics? Maybe a little toner and base will clean up your lesser loudspeaker.
http://www.goldcreams.com/

[4313B]

Crap music played on the best system is still crap music.:rotfl:

[edgewound]

Depends on the amp.;)
Not for argument material but I MUCH prefer 4 (or 8!:D) Celestion greenbacks powered by a Marshal than JBL's. In a Fender Twin JBLs are good but I like Jensens too.:)

To each his own. I like the sound of the Celestions, too...Until the voice coils heat up and power compress even losing more information.

I like the sound, feel and non-power compression of big voice coil, big motor speakers that I know will sound the same from the first note to the last during a 4 hour gig.....and won't go up in flames if I push too hard.

And....lugging two 4x12 cabinets just isn't my kind of fun anymore. Been there....done that.

[JeffW]

Mr. Pass is pretty well respected around here

I'm still waiting for the punch line.

[hjames]

'zis where they start in with the blue billet rockers jokes?

or does nelson pass on guitar amps?

[JeffW]

'zis where they start in with the blue billet rockers jokes?

or does nelson pass on guitar amps?

I figured it'd be "So Nelson Pass, Mark Levinson and Steven Hawking walk into a bar..."

But then I saw where that one wouldn't work.

[1audiohack]

I figured it'd be "So Nelson Pass, Mark Levinson and Steven Hawking walk into a bar..."

But then I saw where that one wouldn't work.

You are wickedly funny!

[edgewound]

I figured it'd be "So Nelson Pass, Mark Levinson and Steven Hawking walk into a bar..."

But then I saw where that one wouldn't work.

So Nelson Pass, Mark Levinson and Stephen Hawking roll into a bar and discuss Six String Theory with Lee Ritenour...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlYuTsWPQi0

[1audiohack]

Hi Edge, long time! Roll in, exactly what I was thinking. :)

[BMWCCA]

I'm not sure some of the hesitancy in Mark's voice and delivery isn't an artifact of the Skype-style connection. At least to some extent. Even the video is chopped-up at times. The wide-angle view of the web cam adds to the goofy look. The rest may be the he just isn't as comfortable in a live interview for broadcast as he well may be in person.

I like what he's positing. I don't even fault him for selling his name to Lexus for their crap systems. ;)

[tomt]

I'm not sure some of the hesitancy in Mark's voice and delivery isn't an artifact of the Skype-style connection. At least to some extent. Even the video is chopped-up at times. The wide-angle view of the web cam adds to the goofy look. The rest may be the he just isn't as comfortable in a live interview for broadcast as he well may be in person.



agreed.

hear the 'digital noise floor' on/off artifacts?

and,

looks to me, he might be somewhat dehydrated ...

[richluvsound]

It often happens when one is actually thinking before one opens ones mouth ..... a very rare courtesy !

[audiomagnate]

I'm not sure some of the hesitancy in Mark's voice and delivery isn't an artifact of the Skype-style connection. At least to some extent. Even the video is chopped-up at times. The wide-angle view of the web cam adds to the goofy look. The rest may be the he just isn't as comfortable in a live interview for broadcast as he well may be in person.

I like what he's positing. I don't even fault him for selling his name to Lexus for their crap systems. ;)

The host has a great connection and is very fluent, and his energized style is just a huge contrast with ML's speaking style. I'm still curious as to which "professional grade" drivers he stuffing in those ugly boxes.

I seriously doubt that Mark made any money on the Lexus deal. They're using the same logo that Harman owns, so I'd bet they're getting the royalties. Back in the 90's Nakamichi made the same deal with Lexus, but at least it was pretty good stuff and manufactured and serviced by Nak.

[DavidF]

I saw an interview on "Home Theater Geeks," one of Leo Laport's video podcasts, where Mark Levinson was pushing his M1 speakers for a cool $100K. 100dB at 1 watt. I met him in Chicago in 77 when he was selling the HQD system, but this new speaker looks worse than my butt ugly but great sounding SVA2100s. Does anybody know what drivers he's using? He makes some ridiculous statements in the podcast, equating speaker sensitivity to MP3 bit loss. Another hero bites the dust. He sounds brain damaged, and I'm being kind.

"...I'm being kind".

No, you are not at all. Making light of a speech impediment and then using that to discount some of the points he is raising?

[SEAWOLF97]

It often happens when one is actually thinking before one opens ones mouth ..... a very rare courtesy !

:applaud:

Rich nails it again ....
Not everybody has Kathy Lee Giffords talent (?? :eek:) , a person who can rattle off yards of crap w/o thinking ...some of us (and I've been accused of the same thing) actually think out the answer before verbalizing it.

[BMWCCA]

The host has a great connection and is very fluent, and his energized style is just a huge contrast with ML's speaking style.
The host isn't on Skype. It's filmed in his studio. Levinson is being recorded off some lousy Internet video connection.

[audiomagnate]

See it for yourself - April 2nd, 2012
http://twit.tv/show/home-theater-geeks/105

He doesn't seem to pause-between-every-single word ...
seems more like he speaks in word clusters, sentence chunks,
and thinks a bit as he goes forward ...

I have to run so I only listened to 7 minutes, but I didn't hear what you said you heard in that.

There is a very faint bit of stutter, but I sure wouldn't hammer the guy for that kind of thing.

If he had spoken like the rest of us, the interview would have lasted less than seven minutes.


Stainless steel baskets, stainless must have gone up a lot since the last time I checked.

That's why I started this thread, they are "bezels" like $200,000 watches have, which are probably being used to disguise the drivers. How can a bezel make a driver better?

They're not stainless steel baskets, they're stainless steel glory holes.
Gory rings not glory holes. I'm getting my sites confused.

Please share your thoughts with us about Stephen Hawking.
My minor is in physics from the University of Pittsburgh, he's another hero and I've have read all of his "accessible" books and given them to my kids and friends. It was only a minor.

Mark Levinson's thoughts on being captivated by music and the emotion of it have much more to do with the actual music, performance and the art of recording it than the playback system.

The playback system is the bonus. Crap music played on the best system is still crap music.

He also said low efficiency speakers waste huge amounts information through heat. Makes sense to me.

And...Nelson Pass says the first watt is the most important. Mr. Pass is pretty well respected around here and I'd say he and Mark Levinson are in good company with each other.

Also, too...:p...Like Heather, I see a man with lots of thought in his brain and doing lots of pre-filtering before he actually speaks.

Did you know Mark Levinson is also into cosmetics? Maybe a little toner and base will clean up your lesser loudspeaker.
http://www.goldcreams.com/

Kim Cattrell was beyond hot back then, and he looks good in that photo. Must be the skin cream. It's like when the total nerd in high school get the hottest chick.Five years with Kim Cattrell ten years ago . Imagine!


So Nelson Pass, Mark Levinson and Stephen Hawking roll into a bar and discuss Six String Theory with Lee Ritenour...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlYuTsWPQi0

No that's a punchline! Excellent.


I'm not sure some of the hesitancy in Mark's voice and delivery isn't an artifact of the Skype-style connection. At least to some extent. Even the video is chopped-up at times. The wide-angle view of the web cam adds to the goofy look. The rest may be the he just isn't as comfortable in a live interview for broadcast as he well may be in person.

I like what he's positing. I don't even fault him for selling his name to Lexus for their crap systems. ;)


agreed.

hear the 'digital noise floor' on/off artifacts?

and,

looks to me, he might be somewhat dehydrated ...

Maybe he needs to use some of his skin creams.


"...I'm being kind".

No, you are not at all. Making light of a speech impediment and then using that to discount some of the points he is raising?

You are correct, I was being mean. I apologize.

:applaud:

Rich nails it again ....
Not everybody has Kathy Lee Giffords talent (?? :eek:) , a person who can rattle off yards of crap w/o thinking ...some of us (and I've been accused of the same thing) actually think out the answer before verbalizing it.

So when James Joyce does it it considered high art, but when Kathy Lee Gifford does it after a couple of glasses of Chardonnay it's a bad thing? That is so sexist!

Seriously folks, what is this guy using and how do they sound? Are they better than 1400 Arrays? Has he stumbled onto something? Let's identify those drivers and get to work. His HQD system was glorious.

[tomt]

You are correct, I was being mean. I apologize.



i wouldn't apologize to that sort.

not until he/she/it/whatever makes an apology

to the 200,000+ members of diyaudio.com

look at this -

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/203185-field-coil-conversion-jbl-altec-western-2.html#post2995566


and the moderators comment below.


`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````

on topic -

i'd like to know what drivers he's got as well.

what ever endeaver he'd been involved with for the last 40+ years,

have been more or only slightly less than at the forefront of music reproduction ...

( i still suspect he maybe dehydrated )

[1audiohack]

I finally got to listen to (didn't watch) the interview and I thought he did fine. It was obvious right away that the host and Mark were in acoustically different rooms with different sounding microphones.

I teach a once a week class and have a couple of different lapel, hand held and head worn mic's and some of them do accentuate mouth noises, especially if ones mouth is dry and or you just haven't listened to yourself through a mic and make a conscious effort to avoid some of the troublesome issues.

Again I thought he did fine, it's not easy answering questions non scripted for an hour and I find when asking questions that require thought the nuances of his speech are pretty normal under the circumstances. And, don't forget that he's 65, at 48 I'm not near as mentally nimble as I used to be, damnit!

I think it's great, he's living the dream you know, his dream and I'm happy for his successes and wish him well.

Thanks for the link. :)

[Jan Daugaard]

On a more constructive note:

I have in vain tried to find the 1936 Bell Labs papers referred to by Mark Levinson.

Can somebody provide an exact reference?

[Titanium Dome]

i wouldn't apologize to that sort.

not until he/she/it/whatever makes an apology

to the 200,000+ members of diyaudio.com

look at this -

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/203185-field-coil-conversion-jbl-altec-western-2.html#post2995566


and the moderators comment below.


`````````````````````````````````````````````````` `````````````````````````

on topic -

i'd like to know what drivers he's got as well.

what ever endeaver he'd been involved with for the last 40+ years,

have been more or only slightly less than at the forefront of music reproduction ...

( i still suspect he maybe dehydrated )


Are you saying DavidL and DavidF are the same person?

[tomt]

I have in vain tried to find the 1936 Bell Labs papers referred to by Mark Levinson.



Mark Levinson could most likely be the person to ask.

he sent me some info a few years ago.

http://danielhertz.com/contacts

please tell us what you find out ...

[tomt]

Are you saying DavidL and DavidF are the same person?


feeL free to tell me, in the event they are not ...

[DavidF]

feeL free to tell me, in the event they are not ...

I am sorry to disappoint you.

Over at DIY Audio I am David in SJ. DavidF was taken. No posts as yet but I still might.

[grumpy]

www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/bell.labs/auditoryperspective.pdf

[Jan Daugaard]

Thanks, Grumpy.

It appears that the papers are from 1934 and not -- as stated by Mark Levinson -- from 1936. The wrong year made it impossible to find them.

That being said, I already knew the papers which are highly recommendable. It's fascinating that they are as relevant today as they were in 1934.

[Titanium Dome]

feeL free to tell me, in the event they are not ...

David answered for himself. I know him to be a very nice man.

[audiomagnate]

I'm going to read them tonight. I'm pretty sure they don't equate sensitivity/efficiency with bit-rate loss, which is absurd. All speakers convert potential sound energy into heat. Some low efficiency speakers suffer from severe dynamic compression, others don't. My favorite speakers right now put out a walloping 85dB with one watt input at 8 ohms. They sound almost as good as an equally inefficient system that Mark Levinson put together when I was 17, the legendary HQD (Hartley Quad Decca). I have no idea how it compares to his new $100,000 Rent to Own looking thing...or his skin cream, or his watch. He was much more forthcoming when I was 17, wasn't he, naming his driver sources and all in the name of his speaker? He helped me put together my own mini HQD when we talked in the Palmer House back then. Single Quads, same tweeter with his Vaseline mod (I kid you not) and eight sand/epoxy weighted Polydax 8 inchers in a transmission line sub the size of a double coffin. Maybe something happened when he was "with" Kim. God knows she would have put me under. BTW, I used to subscribe to the AES "magazine" when I worked for the Bioacoustics Lab of Pitt's research department, which was part of the Presbyterian Hospital back then (early 70's). They kept sending it to me for about twenty years or so for free. We should all read it. No bullsh** there. I think he's losing it and getting all sentimental. I'm sure his HQD would clobber the M1, but I guess I have to go listen to it. Will it be at RMAF?

[Mr. Widget]

I'm going to read them tonight. I'm pretty sure they don't equate sensitivity/efficiency with bit-rate loss, which is absurd. In the realm of digital audio, the bit rate determines the noise floor or signal to noise ratio. Comparing a passive device like a loudspeaker to an active one is a little confusing, but the sensitivity of a loudspeaker is a factor in it's dynamic range capability so I don't find the comparison absurd.

I do find the tenor of this thread absurd though.

That said, I appreciate being made aware of the interview. I thought it was interesting.


Widget

[edgewound]

I'm going to read them tonight. I'm pretty sure they don't equate sensitivity/efficiency with bit-rate loss, which is absurd. All speakers convert potential sound energy into heat. Some low efficiency speakers suffer from severe dynamic compression, others don't. My favorite speakers right now put out a walloping 85dB with one watt input at 8 ohms. They sound almost as good as an equally inefficient system that Mark Levinson put together when I was 17, the legendary HQD (Hartley Quad Decca). I have no idea how it compares to his new $100,000 Rent to Own looking thing...or his skin cream, or his watch. He was much more forthcoming when I was 17, wasn't he, naming his driver sources and all in the name of his speaker? He helped me put together my own mini HQD when we talked in the Palmer House back then. Single Quads, same tweeter with his Vaseline mod (I kid you not) and eight sand/epoxy weighted Polydax 8 inchers in a transmission line sub the size of a double coffin. Maybe something happened when he was "with" Kim. God knows she would have put me under. BTW, I used to subscribe to the AES "magazine" when I worked for the Bioacoustics Lab of Pitt's research department, which was part of the Presbyterian Hospital back then (early 70's). They kept sending it to me for about twenty years or so for free. We should all read it. No bullsh** there. I think he's losing it and getting all sentimental. I'm sure his HQD would clobber the M1, but I guess I have to go listen to it. Will it be at RMAF?

What I find absurd is your bemoaning the fact that Mark Levinson won't tell you what drivers he's using in his new system.

Why don't you do your own R&D and come up with a better solution...or buy a set of his "Rent to Own" looking thing, tear them apart and clone them?

[louped garouv]

Thanks, Grumpy.

It appears that the papers are from 1934 and not -- as stated by Mark Levinson -- from 1936. The wrong year made it impossible to find them.

That being said, I already knew the papers which are highly recommendable. It's fascinating that they are as relevant today as they were in 1934.

that AES HC site is great, thanks for the breadcrumbs/link Grumpy, much appreciated!

:D

[tomt]

one of the 'benefits' of lower efficiency speakers is,

when the sensitivity is lowered,

the noise floor drops right along too.

that helped hide quite a few things over the years,

like transistor switching distortion.

and how bad poor quality recordings really are.



altho i can't say for sure, whom is making his drivers,

these peoples equipment looks quite similar -

http://www.g-k-f.com/uk/cinema.htm

sound nice too -


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcm4nnsRuEk

[jblsound]

I just finished watching that ML interview. And anyone who thinks Mark is ' losing it' much be a few bricks short of a full load themselves.
It was obvious, it times, Mark was giving some thought as to how he wanted to answer a certain question. It was also obvious that throughout the entire interview that the skype connection, or whatever connection it was, was hanging up.

He was most certainly right on about his assessment of the audio industry, as it is today. More about profit than providing quality products that really convey the music. This was the first time I had heard of Daniel Hertz co. I get the idea that Mark has started this new company because he felt a bit handcuffed at ML over the last 1 1/2 decades since ML Company was acquired by Harman. I don't know it that is accurate, but that was the feeling I came away with.

[audiomagnate]

I just finished watching that ML interview. And anyone who thinks Mark is ' losing it' much be a few bricks short of a full load themselves.
It was obvious, it times, Mark was giving some thought as to how he wanted to answer a certain question. It was also obvious that throughout the entire interview that the skype connection, or whatever connection it was, was hanging up.

He was most certainly right on about his assessment of the audio industry, as it is today. More about profit than providing quality products that really convey the music. This was the first time I had heard of Daniel Hertz co. I get the idea that Mark has started this new company because he felt a bit handcuffed at ML over the last 1 1/2 decades since ML Company was acquired by Harman. I don't know it that is accurate, but that was the feeling I came away with.

He has had nothing to do with Mark Levinson Ltd for ages. He sold the rights to his own name when he sold the company to Harman. Yeah, there's no profit in a $100,000 three way speaker, and trim rings make a speaker sound better, and separating the back wave of your sub and mid bass drivers is an amazing innovation. They do look amazingly similar to those French made GKF speakers.

[jblsound]

He has had nothing to do with Mark Levinson Ltd for ages. He sold the rights to his own name when he sold the company to Harman. Yeah, there's no profit in a $100,000 three way speaker, and trim rings make a speaker sound better, and separating the back wave of your sub and mid bass drivers is an amazing innovation. They do look amazingly similar to those French made GKF speakers.
I knew the ML company was acquired by Harman in '98, I think it was, at which point the HK Citation line was dropped.
But I did not know Mark had actually sold his rights and was no longer part of ML Ltd.

[BMWCCA]

Wikipedia explains it this way:

Mark Levinson

It was founded in 1972 as Mark Levinson Audio Systems (MLAS), by Mark Levinson, and has since its birth focused on solid-state equipment. The company was originally based in New Haven, CT, where Mark Levinson had begun to develop high end audio systems; his father was a professor at Yale University. In the 1980s, the company was taken over by Madrigal and lost several of its employees and innovators (Mark Levinson, Tom Colangelo, etc.). Mark Levinson himself went on to found or co-found other companies (Cello and then Red Rose Music).

[Sundown]

I may have been in a bad mood (long day at work) when i listened to the podcast but I found him to be slightly arrogant and a hypocrite. He claims the industry is becoming a "virus" and all about profit yet he's selling 100k speakers. Thats not including the Red Rose amp fiasco. I do agree w/his sentiments on high efficiency speakers but geez there's something about the interview that just seemed off.

[jblsound]

Wikipedia explains it this way:

Mark Levinson

It was founded in 1972 as Mark Levinson Audio Systems (MLAS), by Mark Levinson, and has since its birth focused on solid-state equipment. The company was originally based in New Haven, CT, where Mark Levinson had begun to develop high end audio systems; his father was a professor at Yale University. In the 1980s, the company was taken over by Madrigal and lost several of its employees and innovators (Mark Levinson, Tom Colangelo, etc.). Mark Levinson himself went on to found or co-found other companies (Cello and then Red Rose Music).


In that interview, Mark most certainly brought that point forward. I have the same thoughts, I've never much liked the sound of tubes.
One thing I have noticed these last few decades, when a company(any company) gets taken over by another it usually means a degrading of that company. When a company loses its key people, only one way to go.

[4313B]

He claims the industry is becoming a "virus" and all about profit yet he's selling 100k speakersHow many is he selling at $100k? I'm not real sure his target is the ninety-nine percenters.

[jblsound]

How many is he selling at $100k? I'm not real sure his target is the ninety-nine percenters.
I doubt anyone on this forum, certainly out of my price range. A pair of Salon2, I might be able to manage and that's less than 1/4 the price.

[4313B]

I doubt anyone on this forum, certainly out of my price range.I don't even think it's a price range thing. It has to be a status thing.

Look at the JBL Everest II. It's definitely a status thing.

[Sundown]

How many is he selling at $100k? I'm not real sure his target is the ninety-nine percenters.

He's selling enough to stay in business. Personally I don't think it matters who he's targeting for sales but Mark is still perpetuating "the virus" he claims to dislike. Regardless if he's gouging the rich or the 99%, these speakers are way over priced and in essence degrading the audio market he seems to love.


Just my $.05 (adjusted for inflation)

[4313B]

All of this junk is way over priced... yeah, he might be part of the problem
but the other part of the problem is the idiot who would pay one hundred thousand dollars for a pair of loudspeakers...

[jblsound]

All of this junk is way over priced... yeah, he might be part of the problem
but the other part of the problem is the idiot who would pay one hundred thousand dollars for a pair of loudspeakers...
The millionaires who can afford to spend, will. As to if a given product is over priced, there are levels of over priced. And levels of quality that are delivered. All here would say Bose are way over priced, as their quality is next to zero. And all these super expensive cables that some are convinced provide better sound than a cable from BJC. Those are two examples of way over priced and zero quality in return.

If someone buys a pair of Salon2 @ $22,000, K29900 @ $44,000, Everest II @ $60,000, at least there is a quality that can be heard that you will not find in a $2000 speaker. As to if those prices are way over the top...that would depend on the person's point of view.

[tomt]

and all about profit yet he's selling 100k speakers.

Thats not including the Red Rose amp fiasco.





how much overhead is involved?

even in the event he got those red rose amps for free,

commercial / retail space in nyc is Big $ .

```````````````````````````````````

now that he lives/works in switzerland,

there may not be as much of a break

in costs.

in peloton magazine, people on bike tours,

(in switzerland)

were paying more than $300us per night,

each, to spend the night in rural farm houses.

most of these places did not have,

'hot running water'.



````````````````````````````````````````````
http://danielhertz.com/


http://pelotonmagazine.com/

[Sundown]

how much overhead is involved?

even in the event he got those red rose amps for free,

commercial / retail space in nyc is Big $ .

```````````````````````````````````

now that he lives/works in switzerland,

there may not be as much of a break

in costs.

in peloton magazine, people on bike tours,

(in switzerland)

were paying more than $300us per night,

each, to spend the night in rural farm houses.

most of these places did not have,

'hot running water'.



````````````````````````````````````````````
http://danielhertz.com/


http://pelotonmagazine.com/


I could see a justification in the price if his design was ground breaking in technology but i don't see anything that warrants that cost to have high overhead. He's using a design that's been around for decades. I've never heard the M1's but i have listened to an Everest and I feel confident in saying the Everest would at least match the sound of the M1. The Everest has ground breaking design and R&D.

The only speaker i know of that can justify in charging a crazy sum is the Focal Grande Utopia EM. Talk about cutting edge technology and design, gorgeous to boot too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=Pz0L7MWn6to

[4313B]

The justification is in the fact that people are willing to pay what he is asking. It's really that simple. If he charged less, people would very probably lose all interest. I know, it sounds really effed up, but that's how these people think.

[Sundown]

The justification is in the fact that people are willing to pay what he is asking. It's really that simple. If he charged less, people would very probably lose all interest. I know, it sounds really effed up, but that's how these people think.

Rolex did the same thing and I think those watches are crap compared to other great watches. Like you said its effed up.

[svollmer]

I could see a justification in the price if his design was ground breaking in technology but i don't see anything that warrants that cost to have high overhead. He's using a design that's been around for decades. I've never heard the M1's but i have listened to an Everest and I feel confident in saying the Everest would at least match the sound of the M1. The Everest has ground breaking design and R&D.

The only speaker i know of that can justify in charging a crazy sum is the Focal Grande Utopia EM. Talk about cutting edge technology and design, gorgeous to boot too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=Pz0L7MWn6to

Thanks for the link; I love seeing artisans making beautiful things. Here's another (Sorry for being OT):

http://www.audioaficionado.org/b-w-speakers/12118-film-making-800-series-speaker.html

[Wagner]

I saw an interview on "Home Theater Geeks," one of Leo Laport's video podcasts, where Mark Levinson was pushing his M1 speakers for a cool $100K. 100dB at 1 watt. I met him in Chicago in 77 when he was selling the HQD system, but this new speaker looks worse than my butt ugly but great sounding SVA2100s. Does anybody know what drivers he's using? He makes some ridiculous statements in the podcast, equating speaker sensitivity to MP3 bit loss. Another hero bites the dust. He sounds brain damaged, and I'm being kind.


I watched the entire interview, Mark Levinson's speech was perfectly normal as well as typical for those of high intelligence and who think before they open their mouths

Thomas

[tomt]

don't see anything that warrants that cost to have high overhead.





The justification is in the fact that people are willing to pay what he is asking. It's really that simple. If he charged less, people would very probably lose all interest. I know, it sounds really effed up, but that's how these people think.

looks like you (both) might be missing something.

so here it is from someone else -





People often forget that the designers, themselves, have to make something, and the person who sells it, let's say, retail, has to make something, and then there are the company costs like the manufacturing building, storage, etc., telephone, building alarm service, electricity, etc. etc. This drives the cost of a lot of audio components up, and/or profits down.
This is where 'promotion' even selling a story, much like Mark Levenson often does, helps to get the extra sales that can make a company a success.

​I KNOW that just making the best product I can make and trying to sell it at a reasonable price does not 'cut it' and that is why I never returned to manufacturing products after I closed down Vendetta Research.

I KNOW that making a world class audio component can become outrageously expensive, just because we want it to be as 'perfect' as possible, both sonically and visually. We fight it every project.
Now many of you might think that all you need to do is a circuit sim to design it, and a little time to build a prototype, well that will get you a 'hoopty' but NOT a race car. '-)




http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/lounge/200865-sound-quality-vs-measurements-109.html#post3021255

[4313B]

looks like you (both) might be missing something.
Not hardly... I've worked for fortune fifty corporations for years and know full well what it takes to support the salary of a CEO. :rotfl:

[Sundown]

Not hardly... I've worked for fortune fifty corporations for years and know full well what it takes to support the salary of a CEO. :rotfl:
Hahaha

[Steve Schell]

This thread made me reach waaay back in the memory bank. I met Mark Levinson once, probably fifteen years ago. I was in Las Vegas for CES. Red Rose Audio had a large demo room, can't remember whether it was the CES venue or the competing T.H.E. Show location next door. They had made a major impression a year or two before with a small two way system with a ribbon tweeter, but were now introducing a large system. I entered the room, the system was silent and Levinson was talking to two or three people over on the side of the room. I walked up to the speakers, looked them over, then began my exit. Levinson excused himself from the conversation and came over to greet me before I left the room. He asked me what sort of sound I liked, and I told him that I had been experimenting with field coil drivers and had taken a liking to woofers with about 18 kilogauss in the gap. We chatted for a moment then I left, impressed that he had made a point of being cordial to me. Now if he has explored high efficiency speakers in recent years it makes me think that perhaps I planted a seed!

[Mr. Widget]

looks like you (both) might be missing something.

so here it is from someone else -Coming from one who has actually been there, I'd listen to John Curl... he has vast experience in the industry.

We can whine about the value of this or that CEO, and their relative brilliance or stupidity, and even their motivations, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a table saw can go into the speaker business... many have, but few of those actually have advanced the bar.


Widget

[4313B]

Coming from one who has actually been there, I'd listen to John Curl... he has vast experience in the industry.

We can whine about the value of this or that CEO, and their relative brilliance or stupidity, and even their motivations, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a table saw can go into the speaker business... many have, but few of those actually have advanced the bar.


WidgetI didn't understand your post at all until I took the time to go read the link to which you are referring.

I read that one post, I refuse to waste my time reading that whole thread.

[jblsound]

Coming from one who has actually been there, I'd listen to John Curl... he has vast experience in the industry.

We can whine about the value of this or that CEO, and their relative brilliance or stupidity, and even their motivations, but when it comes down to it, anyone with a table saw can go into the speaker business... many have, but few of those actually have advanced the bar.


Widget
I would certainly say a John Curl/Parasound amp is well worth the money. And although a Parasound amp will cost more than an ID amp, they are much less than a ML amp and probably just as good. If I ever bought a pair of Salon2, I would most certainly drive them with a pair of Parasound JC1 monos.
But I doubt I would ever plop down $100K for a set of speakers, even if I could afford it.

[richluvsound]

I would certainly say a John Curl/Parasound amp is well worth the money. And although a Parasound amp will cost more than an ID amp, they are much less than a ML amp and probably just as good. If I ever bought a pair of Salon2, I would most certainly drive them with a pair of Parasound JC1 monos.
But I doubt I would ever plop down $100K for a set of speakers, even if I could afford it.



Its all relative IMHO ... If you have spent 100 k on speakers ,chances are , you have spent another 100k on the rest of the system .
In my experience, the technology in this speaker will filter down raising the bar of his entire brand . Besides, TAD sell about 30 REF 1 pairs a year , the Everest not too many more than that. I really don't see what the issue is . He's not holding a gun to my head to buy a pair. At this level ,its as much art ,as it is science and anyone that can sell an idea that brings joy gets my respect .

Rich

[Titanium Dome]

Its all relative IMHO ... If you have spent 100 k on speakers ,chances are , you have spent another 100k on the rest of the system .
In my experience, the technology in this speaker will filter down raising the bar of his entire brand . Besides, TAD sell about 30 REF 1 pairs a year , the Everest not too many more than that. I really don't see what the issue is . He's not holding a gun to my head to buy a pair. At this level ,its as much art ,as it is science and anyone that can sell an idea that brings joy gets my respect .

Rich

Rich, I know I get a few barbs thrown my way due to my utilitarian approach to amps and other equipment, but I do think you're right on the money here (so to speak). If there's anything in my kit that I want to look like art, it's the speakers.

There's no question that I get a ton of joy just looking at the K2 S9900 pair in my living room, and I like the big fat cables attached to them. I also like the looks of the S/2600 pair in the bedroom. I still like the looks of the 250 cabs I have in a couple of places. They're all works of art IMO and as much joy to look at as to listen to. The rest are lesser lookers, and in the Two Jims Theatre, I don't want to look at them at all. They should disappear. But if something is dominating a room, it needs to look statement worthy.

"Art" is what brought me to JBL in the first place. I was smitten the first time I saw L100 Century speakers with Quadrex grilles. "Modern art" was my first thought.

When I first saw the K2 S9900 in the flesh, I didn't feel like there was a gun to my head. I felt like there was a needle in my vein.

[jblsound]

Its all relative IMHO ... If you have spent 100 k on speakers ,chances are , you have spent another 100k on the rest of the system .
In my experience, the technology in this speaker will filter down raising the bar of his entire brand . Besides, TAD sell about 30 REF 1 pairs a year , the Everest not too many more than that. I really don't see what the issue is . He's not holding a gun to my head to buy a pair. At this level ,its as much art ,as it is science and anyone that can sell an idea that brings joy gets my respect .

Rich
If I bought a pair of Salon2 @ full retail, that would be $22,0000. A pair of JC1 mono blocks would be $9000. If I decided on a JC2 pre-amp that is only $4000 more. So the Revels would still be almost twice the price of the 3 amps. I don't think one needs to spend the same amount on amps as the cost of the speakers; 2:1 is about right.

[Mr. Widget]

If I bought a pair of Salon2 @ full retail, that would be $22,0000. A pair of JC1 mono blocks would be $9000. If I decided on a JC2 pre-amp that is only $4000 more. So the Revels would still be almost twice the price of the 3 amps. I don't think one needs to spend the same amount on amps as the cost of the speakers; 2:1 is about right.I think you are spot on in that pairing. I think the JC-1s and Salon2s are really great together. I have never heard the JC-2 preamp. I assume it is good and perhaps great, but I would certainly audition it in the given system before I committed to it.

The Salon2s and the JC-1s are not only particularly well suited to each other, they are both extreme values in their respective markets. Sure a pair of speakers costing over 20K isn't chump change, but these speakers are as good as any speaker produced... obviously how you listen, what your taste in music and sound as well as your aesthetic preferences are all factors in determining if these speakers are for you, but those factors aside, they are absolutely top drawer. The JC-1s are pretty much the same in an amp. They are very refined yet they are brutes... while they are nice looking, you are not spending gobs on the housing or uber high end niche marketing.

All that said, I do not think you can use any formula for the cost of a speaker vs. a cable, an amp, or the whole system... each system should be considered independently... factoring the listener and the room as well as the audio components.

Back on topic, I don't know anything about this new Mark Levinson venture... but I bet it is good. It may not be value oriented, or they may be outrageously good, I have no idea, but I don't think Mr. Levinson has ever associated his name with anything that was bad. Extreme, yes... outrageously priced... yes, but bad... not yet.


Widget

[richluvsound]

If I bought a pair of Salon2 @ full retail, that would be $22,0000. A pair of JC1 mono blocks would be $9000. If I decided on a JC2 pre-amp that is only $4000 more. So the Revels would still be almost twice the price of the 3 amps. I don't think one needs to spend the same amount on amps as the cost of the speakers; 2:1 is about right.


Thats not what I wrote :) the 100k on the rest of the system ... its a toy ! 2 or 3 different types of amplifier ,TT's , Digital sources . I'd want to play with it as well as listen to music . There are many fine amps out there . They all sound slightly different and with a pair of speakers that can illuminate the differences in kit why not ?

[Rudy Kleimann]

I like what he's positing. I don't even fault him for selling his name to Lexus for their crap systems. ;)

Actually, Mark Levinson the person has nothing to do with it. Harman Intl. owns the Mark Levinson brand name and is selling/promoting their sound systems in the Lexus et.al. high-end cars.

[BMWCCA]

Actually, Mark Levinson the person has nothing to do with it. Harman Intl. owns the Mark Levinson brand name and is selling/promoting their sound systems in the Lexus et.al. high-end cars.

I understand completely.

Of course Levinson did sell his name to Harman and I can't fault him for making money off his name. The Lexus comment was more my way of sneaking in yet another reference to boring cars with designer names on their audio systems in contrast to cars that make you just not care if they even have a sound system at all.
:D

[Rudy Kleimann]

I understand completely.

Of course Levinson did sell his name to Harman and I can't fault him for making money off his name. The Lexus comment was more my way of sneaking in yet another reference to boring cars with designer names on their audio systems in contrast to cars that make you just not care if they even have a sound system at all.
:D

Yes, I get from your moniker and your previous avatar that you are a key member of the (local?) BMW Car Collectors Association, and your passion for such fine automobiles (driving machines, yes!) is to be admired.

But can you leave the thrashing of other cars and other people out of the dialog and get back to the purpose of this thread and forum: JBL and other high-end audio gear?

I believe the thread topic was regarding drivers... do you have anything to share on that topic?

[richluvsound]

I believe the thread topic was regarding drivers... do you have anything to share on that topic?


I think we can safely assume the answer to that question is 'NO' :D

[BMWCCA]

Yes, I get from your moniker and your previous avatar that you are a key member of the (local?) BMW Car Collectors Association, and your passion for such fine automobiles (driving machines, yes!) is to be admired.

But can you leave the thrashing of other cars and other people out of the dialog and get back to the purpose of this thread and forum: JBL and other high-end audio gear?

I believe the thread topic was regarding drivers... do you have anything to share on that topic?


Your comments seem to overlook the path this thread took trashing Levinson the man, and his mannerisms over an internet connection. Perhaps if you'd read the entire thread you'd have seen how far off the topic of drivers this went from the first post. And you missed my defending of Levinson's interview quite early on. But don't let the facts get in the way of taking a cheap shot from your anonymous keyboard. :screwy:

Instead you chose to show your intolerance and exactly emulated the behavior you're trashing by adding absolutely nothing to the thread. I only replied to your comment because you missed the intent of mine completely—and wasted space bringing it up.

Go ahead, waste more space attempting to prove you're something other than what you've just shown you are. Did someone piss in your Wheaties yesterday? :dont-know:

[SEAWOLF97]

I believe the thread topic was regarding drivers... do you have anything to share on that topic?

I liked Dan Gurney , he was a great driver ...;)

[BMWCCA]

I liked Dan Gurney , he was a great driver ...;)

And I had the opportunity to meet and speak with him at the Daytona 24Hour several years ago. Our car had "retired" overnight and in the early hours of the morning I was out in the empty stands near the first turn with only one other person sitting there. I introduced myself as a longtime fan and he was most gracious in carrying on a conversation for maybe twenty-minutes. A true gentleman as well as top in his field.

Thanks for getting us back on topic! Drivers, indeed. :D

[DHL]

I think you are spot on in that pairing. I think the JC-1s and Salon2s are really great together. I have never heard the JC-2 preamp. I assume it is good and perhaps great, but I would certainly audition it in the given system before I committed to it.

The Salon2s and the JC-1s are not only particularly well suited to each other, they are both extreme values in their respective markets. Sure a pair of speakers costing over 20K isn't chump change, but these speakers are as good as any speaker produced... obviously how you listen, what your taste in music and sound as well as your aesthetic preferences are all factors in determining if these speakers are for you, but those factors aside, they are absolutely top drawer. The JC-1s are pretty much the same in an amp. They are very refined yet they are brutes... while they are nice looking, you are not spending gobs on the housing or uber high end niche marketing.

All that said, I do not think you can use any formula for the cost of a speaker vs. a cable, an amp, or the whole system... each system should be considered independently... factoring the listener and the room as well as the audio components.

Back on topic, I don't know anything about this new Mark Levinson venture... but I bet it is good. It may not be value oriented, or they may be outrageously good, I have no idea, but I don't think Mr. Levinson has ever associated his name with anything that was bad. Extreme, yes... outrageously priced... yes, but bad... not yet.


Widget

Mr. Widget:

Actually, the JC1/JC2s make my L212s sound amazing. Brings them up to the levels of my B&W 803ds which cost almost 10X the JBLs (maybe less than that in today's $). I was amazed at how close (except for the lower bass) these two were. My point being spending huge dollars does not always get you huge improvemenmts in sonic presentation, especially with speaker systems. Of course, folks often spend an exponentially increasing dollar amount for a diminishingly smaller return in performance. But the JBL/Parasound combo may indicate that there is no proper ratio for amp/preamp/speaker costs.

[Rudy Kleimann]

I really wish you could contribute about the speakers instead of cheap-shot (sic) drivel about cars and uncalled-for deriding of Mark Levinson, that you pale in comparison to. Not a cheap shot; a statement of fact... am I wrong? I think not.

Ok, I'm done... and I hope that the car and Levinson bashing will cease... back to the music and speakers.

So, does anyone have any information about these drivers? Has anyone here heard any of these systems?
From what I can guess, based on all the posts, it appears that the drivers look like JBL cones, but that's as far as it goes. My own guess is that the drivers are unique and of their own design.
Lord knows that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery... Unless one of us LHS members has a connection, I suppose that the only way to tell is to open up a pair.


Your comments seem to overlook the path this thread took trashing Levinson the man, and his mannerisms over an internet connection. Perhaps if you'd read the entire thread you'd have seen how far off the topic of drivers this went from the first post. And you missed my defending of Levinson's interview quite early on. But don't let the facts get in the way of taking a cheap shot from your anonymous keyboard. :screwy:

Instead you chose to show your intolerance and exactly emulated the behavior you're trashing by adding absolutely nothing to the thread. I only replied to your comment because you missed the intent of mine completely—and wasted space bringing it up.

Go ahead, waste more space attempting to prove you're something other than what you've just shown you are. Did someone piss in your Wheaties yesterday? :dont-know:

[BMWCCA]

i really wish you could contribute about the speakers instead of cheap-shot (sic) drivel about cars and uncalled-for deriding of mark levinson, that you pale in comparison to. Not a cheap shot; a statement of fact... Am i wrong? I think not.

Consider your own advice . . . from 2006:

Not God Almighty Here!
i rather resent when someone starts playing the role of god and conscience here.

Stop worrying so much, and please refrian from the condescending approach when correcting an error on the part of others. Share what you can, and be kind about it... I would rather feel enlightened than reprimanded!!!

let a sleeping dog lie...

no, no. Don't want to stir up the natives-:p


this was the first thread i read in a couple of days, and was taken aback by the turn the thread had taken and felt the need to respond. But then, i read a couple other threads tonight involving out-of-control egos and the martyrs laying bleeding in the streets.

I want none of that. :bs: Is it a full moon?





Whoa!!!
Step AWAY from the computer, Pour yourself a cool one, and hang out on the veranda for awhile. You'll be all-right.



​

[4313B]

I just gave this thread a one star rating. That's about all the fun that's left to have with it.

[hjames]

I saw an interview on "Home Theater Geeks," one of Leo Laport's video podcasts, where Mark Levinson was pushing his M1 speakers for a cool $100K. 100dB at 1 watt. I met him in Chicago in 77 when he was selling the HQD system, but this new speaker looks worse than my butt ugly but great sounding SVA2100s. Does anybody know what drivers he's using?
He makes some ridiculous statements in the podcast, equating speaker sensitivity to MP3 bit loss. Another hero bites the dust. He sounds brain damaged, and I'm being kind.
Ya know, the very first post (first pist?) in this thread started off with a mean manner
and even tho some members have risen above that, its never been particularly worthy.

[richluvsound]

Hi Heather ,

what colour socks are you wearing today ?

Rich

[hjames]

Hi Heather ,

what colour socks are you wearing today ?

Rich
Its 75 degrees (F) - none!

How 'bout you?

[richluvsound]

Its 75 degrees (F) - none!

How 'bout you?


I keep my feet on the heatsinks ... steady 55 C + big blue wool work socks my Mom sends every Christmas from Canada ... , we just had the wettest 6 weeks since records began. :D X

[audiomagnate]

...but when it comes down to it, anyone with a table saw can go into the speaker business...


Widget

Or a piano factory.

[SEAWOLF97]

And I had the opportunity to meet and speak with him at the Daytona 24Hour several years ago. Our car had "retired" overnight and in the early hours of the morning I was out in the empty stands near the first turn with only one other person sitting there. I introduced myself as a longtime fan and he was most gracious in carrying on a conversation for maybe twenty-minutes. A true gentleman as well as top in his field.

Thanks for getting us back on topic! Drivers, indeed. :D

I used to go to the SCCA events at Santa Barbara ...saw him there a couple of times ...recall his 'Stang being very fast ...Jim Hall and his Chaparral too ..:D

on topic, right ? drivers.