Is newer better : 4430 vs 1400 Array

[Ando]

I am just about to buy a pair of 4430s to renovate. They look pretty good but clearly its hard to tell much until they are opened up. My friends say I am crazy and will end up spending time and money when I should just buy a new pair of 1400 Arrays which they say will way better and worry free.

Anyone care to venture an opinion particularly in respect to how much "better" the 1400s might be.

I will try to hear the 1400 if I think I might go that way but it does require a fairly significant plane trip to be able to do so.

Mike Anderson.

[richluvsound]

If you want fun project... then 4430 is it . If you want worry free amazing sound ,the 1400's . Its a no brainer to try and compare technologies with 30 years of world class R&D between them .......

The older JBL's are a lot of fun if you have the skills to experiment with new networks and components , but also $$$$$$$$ .
You also need to consider the front end hardware ?

Personally, I'd go for the 1400's out of the two !

Rich

[tom1040]

I have never hear the 4430's. However I do have a pair of S/2600's. I perfer the 1400's by a wide margin. The S/2600's are a two way horn loaded speaker that won the COTY award in Japan in 1994, I think. Our friend TD has a pair-I am not speaking for him, of course, but at one time I thought he perferred the S/2600's over the 4430.

My S/2600's sounded quite well with my McIntosh MC402 amp/C46 preamp combo. Dynamic as hell. I cheated a little and have Tannoy ST50's(supertweeter-it does work). But, when I got a fine deal on some Arrays I noticed the amp had a bit of an 'issue' with the bass-a tad 'wobbly'. So I bought new amps.


I do not have the skill set required as suggested regarding modifications, however, I suspect the same(to a degree) could be done to the 1400 Arrray's but, who would want to? Personally, if you have a refined amp with plenty of current and want a 'refined sound'-get the Arrays. They may not be as 'dynamic' as the 4430's but I would assume they SOUND a lot better. But, I am still learning so take MY advice with a grain of salt.:)

[4313B]

Anyone care to venture an opinion particularly in respect to how much "better" the 1400s might be.Having owned 4430's since they were first introduced I can tell you that the 1400 Array is better on every count for home use despite the fact that they both use the same low frequency transducer technology. And the 1400 Array horn and compression drivers are significantly better than the 2344/242x combo. The 4430 started it all but it sure didn't end there.

[Titanium Dome]

Using the 4430 as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=125
1400 Array=140

Using the 4430 HF as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=139
1400 Array=160

Using the 4430 LF as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=116
1400 Array=128

The top comparison is not an average of the bottom two. It's a composite, subjective opinion on the integration of the whole package.

The 4430 is a studio monitor and a true two-way. The S/2600 is a premium consumer speaker with an ear toward the East, and a true two-way. The 1400 Array is a three-way with overall better drivers, networks, and cabinet design.

I tend to like the Everest-style horns on the S/2600 better than a lot of folks who, unlike Tom and myself, have not lived with them for a while, and I like the implementation of the 12" ME120HS (S/2600) better than the 15" 2235H (4430), but the 14" LE14H-3 (1400) is my favorite of the three.

[Mr. Widget]

Using the 4430 as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=125
1400 Array=140

Using the 4430 HF as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=139
1400 Array=160

Using the 4430 LF as a baseline:

4430=100
S/2600=116
1400 Array=128
Using numbers makes it sound all scientific, but ...:blink:

Subjectively, I can say that I wouldn't mind a pair of 4430s for a second system, but I couldn't live with them as my primary system. I absolutely could live with the 1400 Arrays as my primary speakers. Of course this is purely subjective and is based on MY OWN requirements.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

Using numbers makes it sound all scientific, but ...:blink:

Widget

Like I wrote... :blink:


It's a composite, subjective opinion on the integration of the whole package.



Isn't it kind of early for you? ;)

[Mr. Widget]

Like I wrote... :blink:



Isn't it kind of early for you? ;)True... hey, don't take it personally.

I just thought you were being quite precise about something that is rather arbitrary.


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

True... hey, don't take it personally.

I just thought you were being quite precise about something that is rather arbitrary.


Widget

Actually, I thought I was being quite arbitrary about something that could be rather precise. :p

Speaking of 1400 Arrays, where are yours now? Did you set them up in another room? I've got space for them.

[JuniorJBL]

I would say the 1400's as well. I Really like mine. Just as above 30 years of top flight R&D HAS made a differance.;)

[Mr. Widget]

Speaking of 1400 Arrays, where are yours now? Did you set them up in another room? I've got space for them.Good try. :D


Widget

[1audiohack]

Not exactly 4430's but, I have 4435's in my office and 1400 Arrays at home. The arrays are the favored pair, easily.

This may be social suicide here but I have never been crazy about the 2234-2235's. The LE 14-3? Wow I'll tell ya wow!

[Titanium Dome]

This may be social suicide here but I have never been crazy about the 2234-2235's. The LE 14-3? Wow I'll tell ya wow!

Usually what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but in this case, you're welcome to expose your preference. After all, I agree!

[Mr. Widget]

This may be social suicide here but I have never been crazy about the 2234-2235's. The LE 14-3? Wow I'll tell ya wow!Agreed 100%

That LE14H-3 is a phenomenal woofer!

Widget

[martin_wu99]

I am just about to buy a pair of 4430s to renovate. They look pretty good but clearly its hard to tell much until they are opened up. My friends say I am crazy and will end up spending time and money when I should just buy a new pair of 1400 Arrays which they say will way better and worry free.

Anyone care to venture an opinion particularly in respect to how much "better" the 1400s might be.

I will try to hear the 1400 if I think I might go that way but it does require a fairly significant plane trip to be able to do so.

Mike Anderson.
The newer is 100% better.
But we can't compare something in this way,we compare something on same conditions,two way speaker vs.two way etc.
such as L200 VS. 4430 VS.S3100,L300 VS.1400 VS.4338 VS.S4600:D

[LeBon]

I haven't heard the 4430's in many years, but I replaced my S/2600's with Array 1400's a few months ago, and I can verify that the Array 1400 is significantly better. It is more directional, however, and doesn't have the wide sweet spot that the 2600 has. And it is certainly better for my primary use, which is in a home theater.

[moparfan]

I am happy that technological progress and the art of speaker making is advancing. Unfortunately, it'll take me some years before I can catch up, especially with the prices of the new gear.

What part/s of the LE14 make it that much better?

[SEAWOLF97]

What makes the H-3 that much better than the H-1 ??


I never asked what happened to the LE14H-2. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

(heard that all the H-2's were used up in the Aquarius 3 production run ;) )

[audiomagnate]

Just my 2 cents, but I think the 1400 is the most realistic speaker I've ever heard, and I've wasted all of my youth and much of my middle age chasing down the perfect speaker. If you're looking for "real" the 1400s are the way to go, in my humble opinion.

[1audiohack]

I personally have no animosity towards the 2235H

Nor have I. One chooses his compromises to suit his taste and I have always prefered something like a 2220 augmented with a sub or two.

These 1400 Arrays are the first speakers that I have not felt the absolute need for subs. There are two 1500 Array subs parked next to my 1400's and I don't yet have them integrated in to the point I would claim them an absolute improvement. Most of the time they are out of the loop and off.

I don't usually talk about who, what, where but a couple of weeks ago I drove up to see Widget and hear the Everest's, after a while we slid a pair of 1400 Arrays next to them and just swapped the wires and what a shock it was that the 1400's could even compare. Everest's they are not, great speakers they certainly are.

This would be as good a time as any to publicly thank you Widget, that opportunity was greatly appreciated!

[Mr. Widget]

The pleasure was mine... it was fun sharing!

Anyone else interested in a demo... shoot me a PM and we can try to set up a time.


Widget

[JBLAddict]

hear the Everest's, after a while we slid a pair of 1400 Arrays next to them and just swapped the wires and what a shock it was that the 1400's could even compare. Everest's they are not, great speakers they certainly are.


Everests are aptly named, end of story. My experience with them still haunts. They make it virtually impossible to want more or imagine there's better.

The only time I've ever sat in a room completely mesmerized, knowing full well it'll never be as good again.....they have to be heard to be understood

[martin_wu99]

The pleasure was mine... it was fun sharing!

Anyone else interested in a demo... shoot me a PM and we can try to set up a time.


Widget
I have great interesting in your demo,but how about flight ticket?joking:p
Having heard E2 for several times,in fact it doesn't give me too much feeling:confused:

[martin_wu99]

Nor have I. One chooses his compromises to suit his taste and I have always prefered something like a 2220 augmented with a sub or two.

These 1400 Arrays are the first speakers that I have not felt the absolute need for subs. There are two 1500 Array subs parked next to my 1400's and I don't yet have them integrated in to the point I would claim them an absolute improvement. Most of the time they are out of the loop and off.

I don't usually talk about who, what, where but a couple of weeks ago I drove up to see Widget and hear the Everest's, after a while we slid a pair of 1400 Arrays next to them and just swapped the wires and what a shock it was that the 1400's could even compare. Everest's they are not, great speakers they certainly are.

This would be as good a time as any to publicly thank you Widget, that opportunity was greatly appreciated!

It's a big strange that s9800,s9800se,s9900,and even 66000 don't go so much deeper than i expected. :eek:

[4313B]

The 1400 Array has the most extended low frequency response of all the recent JBL designs. Greg went over it all with me in detail but I have since forgotten the specifics. If I remember correctly he said something to the effect that the 1400 Array was set to be ~ 7 dB down at 30 Hz while most of the fifteen-inch designs were set to be ~ 13 dB down at 30 Hz (anechoic, Harman's large chamber is "only" good to around 25 Hz).

That said, the 1400 Array still doesn't have quite the bottom end of the 250Ti, the box volume just isn't there in the 1400 Array. It probably would have looked even "funnier" with the larger 4 cu ft box.

The fifteen-inch designs are all "extended bass" type designs with the "banana curve" instead of the "shelf" while the 1400 Array design is more like the classic JBL, low Q, quasi-butterworth third-order designs.

[SEAWOLF97]

The 1400 Array has the most extended low frequency response of all the recent JBL designs. Greg went over it all with me in detail but I have since forgotten the specifics. If I remember correctly he said something to the effect that the 1400 Array was set to be ~ 7 dB down at 30 Hz while most of the fifteen-inch designs were set to be ~ 13 dB down at 30 Hz (anechoic, Harman's large chamber is "only" good to around 25 Hz).

That said, the 1400 Array still doesn't have quite the bottom end of the 250Ti, the box volume just isn't there in the 1400 Array. It probably would have looked even "funnier" with the larger 4 cu ft box.

The fifteen-inch designs are all "extended bass" type designs with the "banana curve" instead of the "shelf" while the 1400 Array design is more like the classic JBL, low Q, quasi-butterworth third-order designs.

Wow, interesting post.... so some of the 1980's gear ain't quite as bad as some here make it out to be ?

[4313B]

Wow, interesting post.... so some of the 1980's gear ain't quite as bad as some here make it out to be ?It's a long story.

The short story is that some of the very expensive newer JBL systems make for some very worthy upgrades but you have to pay for it. The bang for the buck isn't what it was in the 70's and 80's (JBL was considered grossly overpriced back then too).

[Robh3606]

Wow, interesting post.... so some of the 1980's gear ain't quite as bad as some here make it out to be ?

Who says the 80's gear is all that bad?? The only thing I see is many think the newer systems are better. I would hope they would be 30 years down the road. That doesn't take anything away for a pair of L250Ti or a pair of XPL 200's. They are what they are.


the 1400 Array still doesn't have quite the bottom end of the 250Ti

All you have to do is put them in a larger box which is what I did when I built my Array clones. I use LE-14's as subs in 4 cubic ft boxes and they do not disapoint.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Who says the 80's gear is all that bad?? The only thing I see is many think the newer systems are better. I would hope they would be 30 years down the road. That doesn't take anything away for a pair of L250Ti or a pair of XPL 200's. They are what they are.Exactly.
All you have to do is put them in a larger box which is what I did when I built my Array clones. I use LE-14's as subs in 4 cubic ft boxes and they do not disapoint.Yep.

[Mr. Widget]

Wow, interesting post.... so some of the 1980's gear ain't quite as bad as some here make it out to be ?If your primary goal is low frequency extension then they could be considered even better than many newer JBLs... especially the L212 system!

Ultimately it comes down to which compromises affect your enjoyment the least. To many people a nice Bose system is worth the acoustic compromise... OK, that was uncalled for! ;)

Seriously though, if what you want is ass kicking sound and you don't mind slightly less than stellar imaging or don't care about having the most neutral sounding speakers, then one of the big 43XX systems, a vintage Altec system, or a nice DIY system is really all you need and dropping big coin on one of these newer systems would be a waste of money.

If on the other hand, you want a fairly neutral sound with good extension and low distortion but you don't mind missing a bit of imaging focus or the snappiest of dynamics, then a 250Ti or XPL system is probably all you would ever need.

With the latest JBLs the trade off is low frequency extension... though with the 1400 Array, what is missing is pretty trivial... I personally couldn't live with the K2-S9800 or S9900 without a sub, but that is my choice. With the 1400 Array, room depending, in most cases I doubt you would ever want more or deeper bass.


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

I am currently running the 14H-3's for my arrays in a Citation 7.4 cab with the SAM1HF's sitting on top and the cced XO. They have really nice extension down low! I do not feel the need for subs with these.;)

[4313B]

I personally couldn't live with the K2-S9800 or S9900 without a sub, but that is my choice.Just use larger volumes, the 1500AL in a 5 cu ft matches the bandwidth of the LE14 in the 4 cu ft.

It would seem that there is just no getting around not using a 4430-sized box with any fifteen to get that "proper" bottom end.

[Mr. Widget]

Just use larger volumes, the 1500AL in a 5 cu ft matches the bandwidth of the LE14 in the 4 cu ft.

It would seem that there is just no getting around not using a 4430-sized box with any fifteen to get that "proper" bottom end.That's fine for those DIYers among us... but not everyone can pull that off. :) Not to mention most DIYers can't do everything else right when building their own project or clone either. Box building and tuning are only the tip of the iceberg. ;)


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

I don't mind a big spoon of nostalgia from time to time. In fact, it can be quite tasty, but I don't let that get in the way of simple facts.

I love my 1989 Chrysler's TC by Maserati: Italian leather everywhere, real chrome and stainless steel all over the place, unique two-seater design with hard top and soft top in the same vehicle, Fondmetal alloys, turbo, dual eight-way power seats, etc. It's a great, unique vehicle with a lot of charm. Yet I know it's less of a car by almost every important measure than my 2012 Hyundai Elantra Touring. From safety, to economy, to technology, to quality control, to cost of ownership, to joy in driving, the Hyundai kills the TC. So while I love the TC, I have no illusions about which is the better vehicle.

Yes, I've still got my original L100s, plus another pair, L250s, XPL200As, L7s, 4430s, S/2600s (...keep going...), but the simple reality is the newer stuff I have has it all over those treasured units, and they can only be appreciated for what they represent for the time they were designed and manufactured. All my SVAs are gone, and hopefully the delightful 240Tis will follow, but the choice if I had to make it is quite simple. The Performance Series, the Synthesis® One Array, and the K2 S9900s would stay, and everything else would go. Nostalgia be dashed, at the end of a long day, it's the speakers that please me the most that matter, and they all are relatively recent.

[4313B]

That's all really neato and stuff but the simple fact is, I'd rather pay ten grand for the Everest II components and build a pair of 4435-type boxes to put them in than pay sixty grand for some art. I am interested in the components and the music, not art. If I can't buy the Everest II components for ten grand then I'm going to stick with the previous gear.

There is no way in hell on earth that I'm going to be replacing something like an L300 with 99% of the third-world JUNK JBL peddles today. Hell, I wouldn't even replace an L300 with a K2-S9900; I'll be real blunt, the box is too small for the kind of low frequency response I personally prefer and the horn isn't vertical. Now why the **** would I spend $40 grand on something like that? Just sell me the components for six grand and I'll do with them what I wish.

The following are arguably some of today's replacements for a 4430:
S4700
S4800
4338
4365
K2-S9900

If one doesn't have the bags of gold to replace then perhaps doing the most with what one has would be the better bet. Replace the diaphragms with Be diaphragms when and if they become available, worst case use aquaplased aluminums or titaniums. CC the networks and tweak them to personal taste. Retune the stock 4430 box 4 to 6 Hz down to get rid of that damn bump at 34 Hz. Or consider buying some SAM1HF's and putting them with the 2235H's.

There are three reasons I can think of to scale down to the LE14H-3 from the 2235H:
1. Smaller box requirement.
2. No foam surround.
3. Personal preference for the sound signature of the less efficient LE14H-3.

They are capable of the exact same low frequency bandwidth, the 2235H is merely 4 dB more efficient and can handle a bit more excursion.

[Robh3606]

I am interested in the components and the music, not art.

Too bad about that. It was fun while it lasted.

Rob:)

[4313B]

Too bad about that. It was fun while it lasted.Yep. I guess everything has a lifespan.

Back in the day we didn't want to buy a Paragon, we wanted LE15A's, 375's, and 075's and JBL bent over backwards to make it all happen. :)

It really was fun! :yes:



Today you order an LE14H-3 and it shows up in a beat to hell brown paper bag ten months later. :rotfl:

I was going to recone a few more 121H's in the next few weeks for subwoofer duty and went to order the kits and they are NLA. Yet another one bites the dust.

Whatever... :rotfl:

[jblnut]

Hey if you're gonna bring Maserati into this, at least include something like the Bi-Turbo for heaven's sake (or a Bora or Merak) :D.

I get your point though, and everyone else's here (even though it does nothing to diminish my continuing enjoyment of my 250Ti's). For years all we could do was talk about the older models and although it was enjoyable, we eventually covered every possible topic on all the old speakers. But recently now JBL has begun to re-embrace the US market with a whole slew of new models, that are unfortunately quite beyond the budget of all but the most well heeled audio enthusiasts. I do enjoy hearing about those of you who have made the leap, and I hope to one day do the same. But it's going to have to be quite a deal (and perhaps quite some time) before that will be possible.

I would be quite happy to build a 5.1 system around 4430's some day...and I also hope that eventually the 250's might be surpassed with something newer. We'll see if the stars and planets align to make that happen. Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.

My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

jblnut

[4313B]

Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.Yep. I have to seriously start throttling this back too.
My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.I think Harman might still consider New York City a fairly important cosmopolitan area and a Dealer should have a pair there? I know it is in the United States but it still does have a fairly impressive headcount so perhaps a Dealer still exists there.

[SEAWOLF97]

That's all really neato and stuff but the simple fact is, I'd rather pay ten grand for the Everest II components and build a pair of 4435-type boxes to put them in than pay sixty grand for some art. I am interested in the components and the music, not art. If I can't buy the Everest II components for ten grand then I'm going to stick with the previous gear.

There is no way in hell on earth that I'm going to be replacing something like an L300 with 99% of the third-world JUNK JBL peddles today. Hell, I wouldn't even replace an L300 with a K2-S9900; I'll be real blunt, the box is too small for the kind of low frequency response I personally prefer and the horn isn't vertical. Now why the **** would I spend $40 grand on something like that? Just sell me the components for six grand and I'll do with them what I wish.
If one doesn't have the bags of gold to replace then perhaps doing the most with what one has would be the better bet..

I guess your ideas not not ostentatious enough to be accepted by our nouveau riche ..too practical , not enough flash.

[4313B]

I guess your ideas not not ostentatious enough to be accepted by our nouveau riche ..too practical , not enough flash.Or not enough time.

I guess if you make $200 an hour it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to spend your time cutting wood in your garage to make your latest pair of DIY's. In that case I can see spending $60k on loudspeakers that are definitely today's Hartsfield in every sense of the word, at least while they were being made in Northridge, I personally have zero interest in them now.

They're just another import at this point and we need to be EXPORTING. HELLO!?



The "worry free" aspect can also be quite compelling as per the OP's friends.

[Titanium Dome]

Okay, 4313B, rant all you want; you've earned it. I do respect your lament. But the OP asked about old vs. new, not about custom-built vs. stock, or $1,000 used vs. $40,000 new--just 4430 and 1400 Array. Obviously, like most threads, it's gone beyond that now.

I don't want to do all that tinkering that many here like to do. Sure, dorking around with some drivers and active crossovers is fun, and fixing a marred cabinet is enjoyable, but I have zero interest in constructing boxes, specing drivers, building crossovers, etc. What's enjoyable and fulfilling to some is tedious and pointless to me.

I have other things to do with my life, including enjoying music, which I enjoy much, much, much more than the thought of building my own second-rate loudspeaker, which would leave me frustrated and unhappy. Why not just enjoy music a lot sooner with products designed by respected professionals with a long history of innovation and product enhancement? I can do that with greater pleasure from a pair of Timbers-Morro-Ashcraft K2 S9900s (or 1400 Arrays) than 4430s and certainly more than some disappointment that I built, wasting thousands of dollars of valuable parts in the process.


That's fine for those DIYers among us... but not everyone can pull that off. :) Not to mention most DIYers can't do everything else right when building their own project or clone either. Box building and tuning are only the tip of the iceberg. ;)

Widget's exactly right, or as Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

I could fuss and fret over why I can or can't get the parts or why I don't have the time, interest, or shop equipment to build a better loudspeaker than the the K2, or I could just find a way to buy it and spend the next 20 years listening to music. :)

------------------------------------------- Off Topic-------------------------------------------

Ah, I see a quote from someone whose posts I cannot read unless quoted. I was homeless when I graduated from high school, living in my 1964 Plymouth Belvedere station wagon. You know what Ohio winters can be like some years. To be able to rise above this, I worked and went to high school and college. I invested tens of thousands of dollars in my own education, worked my way up from the bottom to the top, eventually saved a bankrupt company, provided 80 people with good paying jobs with full, free benefits, and provided needed help and services to over a million youths and their families (so far). It's not like I'm 20 or 30 or 40 or even 50 years old. My kids are grown, through college, and own their own houses (except for my autistic son, of course). I'm where I am because I worked hard and planned to be here, and there were long decades of L100s only, but now with careful planning and shrewd deal making I can buy what I cannot (or will not) make. No, I don't make $200/hr or even $100/hr, but I earn every dollar I receive. No one gave me anything to make me noveau riche.

This approach is at least as practical to get to the desired result of enjoying music, and believe me there was very little flash and a lot of hard work involved.

[Titanium Dome]

Hey if you're gonna bring Maserati into this, at least include something like the Bi-Turbo for heaven's sake (or a Bora or Merak) :D.

I get your point though, and everyone else's here (even though it does nothing to diminish my continuing enjoyment of my 250Ti's). For years all we could do was talk about the older models and although it was enjoyable, we eventually covered every possible topic on all the old speakers. But recently now JBL has begun to re-embrace the US market with a whole slew of new models, that are unfortunately quite beyond the budget of all but the most well heeled audio enthusiasts. I do enjoy hearing about those of you who have made the leap, and I hope to one day do the same. But it's going to have to be quite a deal (and perhaps quite some time) before that will be possible.

I would be quite happy to build a 5.1 system around 4430's some day...and I also hope that eventually the 250's might be surpassed with something newer. We'll see if the stars and planets align to make that happen. Something tells me with 2 boys hitting college in the next 6-8 years it may not.

My main goal for the next few years is to actually end up in a room somewhere that actually *has* 1400's or K2's or the mighty Everest so I can hear for myself what the fuss is all about.

jblnut

Hey, my TC cost $4,000 when it was 14 years old. What can I say? :dont-know: :D I'd love a $120,000+ Gran Sport, but the TCO is way too high. :eek: (Starting with the down payment...)

Anytime you're in SoCal you can stop by for an audition and a ride in the TC. ;)

[4313B]

I completely empathize.


Obviously, like most threads, it's gone beyond that now.Well... yeah... they do go off here and there don't they. :rotfl:

The thread could have been put to bed with a single post - "Buy the 1400 Arrays and call it done." - end of thread.




There are alot of tinkerers out there. I will admit being rather perplexed when Greg started modifying his brand new Everest II's. Seriously, I was a bit perplexed. I guess some people just have it to do.

Would you believe that I'm thinking about taking my new Tannoy's apart and biasing the networks? :screwy:

If I had some 1400 Arrays I'd be taking them puppies apart and biasing those networks. That particular system is definitely worth the effort.

[pos]

I will admit being rather perplexed when Greg started modifying his brand new Everest II's. Seriously, I was a bit perplexed.
What what what?! What mods? Inquiring minds want to know!! :bouncy:

[Robh3606]

Would you believe that I'm thinking about taking my new Tannoy's apart and biasing the networks? :screwy:

Sure why not.


If I had some 1400 Arrays I'd be taking them puppies apart and biasing those networks. That particular system is definitely worth the effort.

They sure are:D


What's enjoyable and fulfilling to some is tedious and pointless to me.


Whatever floats your boat. I really enjoy rolling up my sleeves and getting my hands dirty. I end up with a pair of speakers I could not have otherwise afforded. I will gladly trade some time and effort for an outcome like that. I get paid back in spades everytime I listen to them even more so because I built them with my own 2 hands.
Rob:smthsail:

[moparfan]

I'll be waiting for those BE diaphrams so I can get someone to build CC's xovers for my slew of 4430s.

[JuniorJBL]

Would you believe that I'm thinking about taking my new Tannoy's apart and biasing the networks? :screwy:
Yes!!:D





If I had some 1400 Arrays I'd be taking them puppies apart and biasing those networks. That particular system is definitely worth the effort.

I have not yet heard a pair of 1400's with oem crossovers!!;)

[martin_wu99]

If your primary goal is low frequency extension then they could be considered even better than many newer JBLs... especially the L212 system!

Ultimately it comes down to which compromises affect your enjoyment the least. To many people a nice Bose system is worth the acoustic compromise... OK, that was uncalled for! ;)

Seriously though, if what you want is ass kicking sound and you don't mind slightly less than stellar imaging or don't care about having the most neutral sounding speakers, then one of the big 43XX systems, a vintage Altec system, or a nice DIY system is really all you need and dropping big coin on one of these newer systems would be a waste of money.

If on the other hand, you want a fairly neutral sound with good extension and low distortion but you don't mind missing a bit of imaging focus or the snappiest of dynamics, then a 250Ti or XPL system is probably all you would ever need.

With the latest JBLs the trade off is low frequency extension... though with the 1400 Array, what is missing is pretty trivial... I personally couldn't live with the K2-S9800 or S9900 without a sub, but that is my choice. With the 1400 Array, room depending, in most cases I doubt you would ever want more or deeper bass.


Widget
If your primary goal is low frequency extension then they could be considered even better than many newer JBLs... especially the L212 system!:confused:

Then here comes a question again,which one is the most low frequency extension speaker JBL ever made?:blink:

[Ando]

Thanks to the people who answered my original question and to those who added the interesting OT thoughts. It seems most people agree the 1400 Array is generally superior to the 4430s.

It seems like CCing the 1400 Array crossover is a good idea. How would someone go about doing that ?

The idea of SAM/ 2235 or other woofer is attractive. Is there anyway that a person with the mechanical skills to build such a system ,but not the knowledge to design crossovers etc ,could be guided through such a project in a pretty much step by step way ?

I guess I better get on a plane and go hear the Arrays.

Mike.

[Robh3606]

Hello Mile

I built my pair up from scratch. Did the cabinets and CC crossover, I have a thread I will post a link too. The CC networks are actually very simple to convert too once you understand the basics of how to make the conversion. If I was going to do it again I would just purchase a couple of SAM's and go from there. When I built my pair you could get the horns from JBL. That's not the case any longer.

Rob:)

CC Networks

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3555-Bypassed-and-Biased-Capacitors

Array Build

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27726-Array-1400-Clones&highlight=DIY+aRRAY

[sweet212]

Thanks to the people who answered my original question and to those who added the interesting OT thoughts. It seems most people agree the 1400 Array is generally superior to the 4430s.

It seems like CCing the 1400 Array crossover is a good idea. How would someone go about doing that ?

The idea of SAM/ 2235 or other woofer is attractive. Is there anyway that a person with the mechanical skills to build such a system ,but not the knowledge to design crossovers etc ,could be guided through such a project in a pretty much step by step way ?

I guess I better get on a plane and go hear the Arrays.

Mike.

Mike there is no no need to get on a plane if you live in or around Sydney. You are welcome to come are here mine.
IMO CCing a pair of 1400's wouldn't make much difference. The mid range and top end is very clean.

[4313B]

IMO CCing a pair of 1400's wouldn't make much difference. The mid range and top end is very clean.Yep, everyone knows all this shit sounds the same, we just pretend there are differences in loudspeakers, amps, cables, source material, damping, biasing, etc. and bullshit each other all day long about it. :rotfl:

The CC networks are actually very simple to convert too once you understand the basics of how to make the conversion.I'd use Greg's battery-free diode method if starting from scratch.

[martin_wu99]

Thanks to the people who answered my original question and to those who added the interesting OT thoughts. It seems most people agree the 1400 Array is generally superior to the 4430s.

It seems like CCing the 1400 Array crossover is a good idea. How would someone go about doing that ?

The idea of SAM/ 2235 or other woofer is attractive. Is there anyway that a person with the mechanical skills to build such a system ,but not the knowledge to design crossovers etc ,could be guided through such a project in a pretty much step by step way ?

I guess I better get on a plane and go hear the Arrays.

Mike.
Go searching 4313B's posts,he is an expert on CCcing.:applaud:

[jblnut]

It does beg the question of why these (very expensive) speakers did not have CC networks to begin with, it it makes that much of a difference....


jblnut

[4313B]

It does beg the question of why these (very expensive) speakers did not have CC networks to begin with, it it makes that much of a difference....
They nickel and dime every system. Would you believe the 1501FE has nickel binding posts instead of the gold binding posts of the 1501AL? Yep, they're that tightly controlled... A price point is a price point, today now more than ever.

And the 1400 Array really isn't all that expensive. Now, a $40 million dollar CEO, that's expensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vW54lAtldI

[Robh3606]

I'd use Greg's battery-free diode method if starting from scratch.

You have a quick reference schematic and what diode they use??



It does beg the question of why these (very expensive) speakers did not have CC networks to begin with, it it makes that much of a difference....

It's not night and day it's subtle it's there and it's worth it IMHO. I have not built a network without it. Even my compression driver compensation on my active set-up is CC.


Thanks Rob:)

[JeffW]

Would you believe the 1501FE has nickel binding posts instead of the gold binding posts of the 1501AL?

I believe mine are gold plated or gold colored or something. Maybe gold spray paint over nickel.

[4313B]

You have a quick reference schematic and what diode they use??Yes.

It's not night and day it's subtle it's there and it's worth it IMHO. I have not built a network without it. Even my compression driver compensation on my active set-up is CC.Add Greg's "The results are staggering" to "It doesn't make that much of a difference" and then divide by two for the net result? :dont-know:

I believe mine are gold plated or gold colored or something. Maybe gold spray paint over nickel.Maybe they had a bigger budget when they made your pair. :dont-know: Mine are newer.

[Mr. Widget]

IMO CCing a pair of 1400's wouldn't make much difference. The mid range and top end is very clean.I'm a big fan of Beryllium and while I have yet to build a CC'd network, the next network I build will be CC'd... that said, I am perfectly happy with the stock aquaplassed aluminum mid and standard networks in the stock 1400 Array.

At some point I may build a pair of clones and if I do, I'll base it on SAMs and probably keep the stock drivers... but since I would need to build 1400 Array networks anyway, they would certainly be CC'd.


Widget

[Guido]

Yes.

This is not the woofer network of the K2-S9900 :confused:
Is there another speaker where it is implemented

[4313B]

It's part of the 4365 network. I took a quick screen grab from the Engineering Design Specification. It was all I had handy at the moment.

[yggdrasil]

They nickel and dime every system. Would you believe the 1501FE has nickel binding posts instead of the gold binding posts of the 1501AL? Yep, they're that tightly controlled... A price point is a price point, today now more than ever.

And the 1400 Array really isn't all that expensive. Now, a $40 million dollar CEO, that's expensive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vW54lAtldI
Luckily there's only one CEO, what if they came in thousands....


It's part of the 4365 network. I took a quick screen grab from the Engineering Design Specification. It was all I had handy at the moment.
The (A) connection is that to one of the input terminals?

[Guido]

It's part of the 4365 network. I took a quick screen grab from the Engineering Design Specification. It was all I had handy at the moment.

I see, do we have that document here?

[Odd]

I see, do we have that document here?

4365 schematics. (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29370-New-JBL-43xx-Studio-Monitor/page2) Post 25

[Guido]

4365 schematics. (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29370-New-JBL-43xx-Studio-Monitor/page2) Post 25

Oops, I missed this. Thank you!

[martin_wu99]

Yep, everyone knows all this shit sounds the same, we just pretend there are differences in loudspeakers, amps, cables, source material, damping, biasing, etc. and bullshit each other all day long about it. :rotfl:
I'd use Greg's battery-free diode method if starting from scratch.
which method is better?battery diode CC or battery-free diode CC?:confused:

[4313B]

Diodes are cheaper.

And to answer your other question, the L212 system probably takes the cake for extended low frequency response.

[jblnut]

Diodes are cheaper.

And to answer your other question, the L212 system probably takes the cake for extended low frequency response.

Over 250TI plus B380 (or even without the B380) ? And what about the big boys with the dual 15's like 4435 or 4355 ? And what of the 18's like 4345 ?

Was the L212 really the be-all end-all bass monster of the JBL family tree ?

jblnut

[4313B]

Over 250TI plus B380 (or even without the B380) ? And what about the big boys with the dual 15's like 4435 or 4355 ? And what of the 18's like 4345 ?

Was the L212 really the be-all end-all bass monster of the JBL family tree ?

jblnutThe L212 used the B212 which was a sealed box system (second order roll-off below 25 Hz).

All the other systems you mention are quasi-third order (without the active EQ) or quasi-fifth order (with the active EQ) so they all roll off much faster below 25 Hz.

Room gain is typically a second order rise below a certain frequency determined by room dimensions. It's easy to see why sealed box systems can potentially yield the lowest response. Unfortunately for the B212, it blows up fairly easily when driven real hard. Given this information Jerry seriously reinforced the 1500SUB and W1500H drivers so they could withstand severe abuse in small sealed enclosures. These particular drivers may go deeper in sealed boxes but alot of people prefer the greater efficiency a vented box affords and are willing to give up a bit of bottom end to get it.

[Robh3606]

Was the L212 really the be-all end-all bass monster of the JBL family tree ?


No I have a pair of the 121A drivers in sealed 2 cubic Ft boxes. The quality is great the issue is output. They have limited X-Max and sealed you are depending on room gain to fill in the last octave.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

No I have a pair of the 121A drivers in sealed 2 cubic Ft boxes. The quality is great the issue is output. They have limited X-Max and sealed you are depending on room gain to fill in the last octave.

Rob:)But that is the driver... the L212 had an eq built in so it did dig down deep. Same is true of the Sub1500... in it's initial guise as the original Revel Ultima sub with equalized ML electronics, it was a formidable sub. Though like it's vintage counterpart, it too blew up under high SPL demands. Using multiples helps a lot in both cases.


Widget

[Robh3606]

But that is the driver... the L212 had an eq built in so it did dig down deep. Same is true of the Sub1500... in it's initial guise as the original Revel Ultima sub with equalized ML electronics, it was a formidable sub. Though like it's vintage counterpart, it too blew up under high SPL demands. Using multiples helps a lot in both cases.


Well Yes and No about being way off topic. I had not considered that they had EQ in the bass module. That doesn't change the limited X-Max and power handling. The EQ steals gobs of headroom from them so in some ways it actually makes matters worse. If you drop them into 1.5ft sealed box you need about 10db of EQ to get them flat at 32Hz. Unless I am missing something that gives them what about 10db headroom based on the amps power output?? If that assumption is correct that's not too much to work with and clearly why you needed more than 1.

Not saying they were not great in their day just that it has past.

Rob:)

[4313B]

The B212 was -3 dB at 25 Hz and 60 Hz. Below 25 Hz it rolled off at ~ 12 dB per octave. Vented subwoofers roll off at anywhere from 18 dB/octave (quasi-third order which low Q JBL transducers excel at) to 36 dB/octave (6th order assisted as per Keele). There was no EQ bump with the B212, it was done via bandwidth limiting, aka low pass cut filter. And yes, that is pretty inefficient. It is more fun to do it with something like a 99 dB SPL 2242H that is really hard to blow up under any kind of home hi-fi conditions. :rotfl:

JBL has never made a sub capable of its extended low frequency performance, quite frankly, they couldn't afford the warranty claims against such a subwoofer. Modern source material (the digital compact disc) revealed the shortcomings of a transducer having such limited xMech.

The 121 wasn't the only one to blow up under pressure. The 124/2203, LE14, 136/2231 and 2235 did as well. All of them had the exact same limited xMech. The coil formers would rip away from the cone assembly. The slightly more robust 2245 did better but even that 4645 system had to be tuned back up from 25 Hz to 30 Hz when people started putting them in IMAX theaters and they'd go poof. When JBL dreamt up the 2242H, the 4645 could be tuned back down to the traditional 25 Hz without fear.

What really floors me is some people were actually able to blow up B460's in their homes even with the extra protection of the BX63. I find that truly staggering. But you know what they say, you can take the <> out of the trailer park but you can't take the trailer park out of the <>.

That's where a sub such as the S2S comes in. Clamp the crap out of the fifteen with a spider so stiff the free air is back up in the thirties and tune it so it yields a ton of thump. Don't even let the thing get down into the twenties.


Not saying they were not great in their day just that it has past.Well that indeed is the short story.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17992&stc=1&d=1157030050

[moparfan]

Before I got a sub for the home theater, I ran a 5.0 4430 system that did not have any subsonic protection/filtering.

I ran that system pretty loud at times, on the edge of uncomfortable for my hearing, and I don't recall hearing mass rings smash into things or other signs of stress. At the time, I wasn't running any room correction so I had a massive room contribution to the bass. This was a fairly small room < 1500cu.ft room.

At least for me asking for more volume would have been system/auditory abuse to see "what it could do".



The B212 was -3 dB at 25 Hz and 60 Hz. Below 25 Hz it rolled off at ~ 12 dB per octave. There was no EQ bump, it was done via bandwidth limiting, aka low pass cut filter.

JBL has never made a sub capable of its extended low frequency performance, quite frankly, they couldn't afford the warranty claims against such a subwoofer. Modern source material (the digital compact disc) revealed the shortcomings of a transducer having such limited xMech.

The 121 wasn't the only one to blow up under pressure. The 124/2203, LE14, 136/2231 and 2235 did as well. All of them had the exact same limited xMech. The coil formers would rip away from the cone assembly. The slightly more robust 2245 did better but even that 4645 system had to be tuned back up from 25 Hz to 30 Hz when people started putting them in iMax theaters and they'd go poof.

What really floors me is some people were actually able to blow up B460's in their homes even with the extra protection of the BX63. I find that truly staggering. But you know what they say, you can take the <> out of the trailer park but you can't take the trailer park out of the <>.

Thats where a sub such as the S2S comes in. Clamp the crap out of the fifteen with a spider so stiff the free air is back up in the thirties and tune it so it yields a ton of thump. Don't even let the thing get down into the twenties.

Well that indeed is the short story.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17992&stc=1&d=1157030050

[4313B]

I'll try and bring this back on topic. Use the 91 dB LE14H-4 instead of the 89 dB LE14H-3 in the 1400 Array, adjust the network and port for the increased mid-band efficiency and then use a pair of 1500 Array's to fill in the bottom octave.

:D

[tom1040]

I'll try and bring this back on topic. Use the 91 dB LE14H-4 instead of the 89 dB LE14H-3 in the 1400 Array, adjust the network and port for the increased mid-band efficiency and then use a pair of 1500 Array's to fill in the bottom octave.

:D


That would be a good choice, I think. However, the way they are, as is, is absolutely fine with me. I added just one 1500 Array.:)

[4313B]

:)

[Mr. Widget]

I'll try and bring this back on topic. Use the 91 dB LE14H-4 instead of the 89 dB LE14H-3 in the 1400 Array, adjust the network and port for the increased mid-band efficiency and then use a pair of 1500 Array's to fill in the bottom octave.

:DAlternatively, save up some cash, find a JBL Synthesis dealer and buy a pair of these... enjoy the music! ;)


Widget

[JuniorJBL]

And in this corner the 1400 ARRAY. :applaud:

[4313B]

Would you throw in some of that special wire to sweeten the deal?

[Mr. Widget]

Would you throw in some of that special wire to sweeten the deal?

Just some pic I snagged from the web.


Widget

[4313B]

Before I got a sub for the home theater, I ran a 5.0 4430 system that did not have any subsonic protection/filtering.

I ran that system pretty loud at times, on the edge of uncomfortable for my hearing, and I don't recall hearing mass rings smash into things or other signs of stress. At the time, I wasn't running any room correction so I had a massive room contribution to the bass. This was a fairly small room < 1500cu.ft room.

At least for me asking for more volume would have been system/auditory abuse to see "what it could do".The 4430 was tuned a bit high at 34 Hz (The 4435 was tuned lower at 26 Hz).

[JeffW]

Would you throw in some of that special wire to sweeten the deal?

Keep the wire, I want those custom speaker platforms.

[4313B]

Just some pic I snagged from the web.I know, I've used the same photo occasionally. :p

Keep the wire, I want those custom speaker platforms.I was going to mention them but I realized they were too short and wouldn't work for me personally.

[grumpy]

They're modular... just stack 'em! ;)

[Retroman]

I owned a new pair of 4430s in '95 for about a year. My system at the time included a Threshold FET10e, SA4e, Nak 1000MB and 1000DAC.

The 4430s replaced a pair of 250Ti which themselves replaced a pair of XPL200. I was going through a musical period at the time when I started listening predominantly again to Rock & Roll instead of Jazz and Jazz fusion. Up to that point, I had not owned a pair of the large format 15-inch, 2-ways. A dealer friend had bought a few pairs of 4430s on a close-out and offered me a great deal. Listening to them at his house, the 4430s impressed me with their great dynamics, both in their overall range and ability to play loud without strain. My goal and hope was that drums, bass guitar, synthesizer, etc. were going to sound more realistic through the 4430s. I was looking for more chest-pounding impact; that is, what I heard from live instruments in the critical range of 100-500Hz. So for one, I was thinking the legendary, studio monitor-grade 15" should out-perform the home hi-fi 14" in this regard. Two, I thought the Bi-radial would provide greater dynamics, clarity and overall resolution. Lastly, I thought I would be able to play the 4430s louder with less strain. I brought the new 4430s home, un-boxed them set them exactly where the 250Ti were in my living room. This was about 3 feet from the front wall and 2 feet from the side walls. I fired-up the Threshold gear and let them warm-up for an hour our so. Out came my usual reference discs and a couple of hours worth of serious listening.

Starting with the bass, the 4430s did not meet my expectations. I was expecting more punch and better pitch definition and it just wasn't happening. On drum and bass guitar solos, the 4430 was only slightly better at very high volumes, but not substantially so. In the midrange, the 4430 had a bit of the dreaded 'cupped hands' coloration, which was quite evident on vocals and acoustic guitar. The high-end was the most disappointing aspect of the 4430s in comparison to the 250s and XPL200s. On ride and crash cymbals, the 250s and especially my XPL 200s had much more extension, air, shimmer and clearer decay. My vivid impression was the top octave was soft and lacked critical detail and resolution. The only area the 4430s excelled over the 250Ti was dynamic range--and in this one aspect they were clearly superior. I lived with the 4430s for about a year and then replaced them with a used pair of 4344s out of a recording studio. I had custom stands made for the 4344s which put the 2405s' on the same plane as my ears. They had some colorations of their own and weren't perfect-but they were very impressive! Their dynamics, detail and resolution made them my second favorite speakers of all the ones I've owned. For rock and jazz fusion they were absolutely first-rate. (I'm 57 and have made too many equipment changes--some without adequate evaluation before buying, but its sure been a lot of fun!)

This brings me to my current all-time favorite speaker-the Array 1400, which I have had for a few years now. Current system consists of a Mac C45 pre-amp, Mac 871 disc player (transport only), Bryston BDA-1 DAC and Threshold SA4e. The 4344 sounded more effortless at very high volumes and had more mid-bass punch. Also, the 4344 didn't reproduce much depth and had only good imaging. But the bottom line is the Array 1400 has everything of importance--deep bass with great definition, impressive mid-bass with very good punch, outstanding imaging along with an extended and detailed top-end without brightness or hardness. Importantly, I can listen to the Arrays all day long without wishing they were better in some way or experiencing listener fatigue. This is the first time I am not thinking of upgrading to better speakers some day. I simply cannot afford the more expensive S9900 or Everest, so this is where I got off the upgrade express. The only (infrequent) thought is maybe one day getting the TrueExtent replacement Beryllium midrange diaphragms.

So for me, the Array 1400 is better in every regard than the 4430. Actually, its not even close.

[audiomagnate]

Nice system mister new guy. I worked for Nak during the 1000MB, 1000 dac era. Stunning stuff. Nero at his best. I hate to beat a dead horse, but the 1400 arrays are the most realistic sounding speakers on the planet, and I've heard the Everests. They can float a voice, or a horn or anything else for that matter, like it's in the room. Absolutely real. Isn't that what it's all about? Awesome first post.

[4313B]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but the 1400 arrays are the most realistic sounding speakers on the planet, and I've heard the Everests.:p


I refuse to downgrade based on your assessment though.

[BMWCCA]

I refuse to downgrade based on your assessment though.

:rotfl:

With all the effusive praise I was beginning to question my decision over three years ago, but then I've not heard anyone compare the 1400 Array to the 4345 with CC mods bi-amped yet.

It doesn't matter to me since I'm not changing anything right now . . . or for the foreseeable future. I'd be very impressed by anything that sounded better than what I'm listening to right now. Met a guy the other day who swears by Avalon speakers and says they're the best. Their website confirms his claim, no surprise! New versus old brings lots of other stuff into the mix but it would seem the 1400 Arrays are well-priced compared to contemporary competition.

[SEAWOLF97]

:rotfl: With all the effusive praise I was beginning to question my decision over three years ago, but then I've not heard anyone compare the 1400 Array to the 4345 with CC mods bi-amped yet. It doesn't matter to me since I'm not changing anything right now . . . or for the foreseeable future. I'd be very impressed by anything that sounded better than what I'm listening to right now. Met a guy the other day who swears by Avalon speakers and says they're the best. Their website confirms his claim, no surprise! New versus old brings lots of other stuff into the mix but it would seem the 1400 Arrays are well-priced compared to contemporary competition.

I agree with Phil (:blink:) ...if you are happy with what you have..stick with it.
OTOH ... referring to the topic question: if faced with the 4430 & 1400 and you are starting from scratch and money is not a concern, then by all means buy the Array.
simple answer, thread shud have been 2, maybe 3 replies long.:dead_horse::cooked:

[4313B]

Agreed. Let's just delete everything past post #2.


With all the effusive praise I was beginning to question my decision over three years ago, but then I've not heard anyone compare the 1400 Array to the 4345 with CC mods bi-amped yet.Stick a pair of SAM1HF's running 1400 Array networks over your 2245H's and 2122H's.

The SAM1HF's are five grand a pair retail and they go with a wide variety of low frequency transducers. The 1400 Arrays are twelve grand a pair retail. Anyone here good at math?

[Robh3606]

With all the effusive praise I was beginning to question my decision over three years ago, but then I've not heard anyone compare the 1400 Array to the 4345 with CC mods bi-amped yet.


I have compared 4344's and the Arrays in the same room right next to each other. The Arrays win.

Rob:)

[4313B]

I really like your LE14H enclosures Rob. I plan to do something similarly narrow for a pair of fifteens.

*****

For some reason I thought the Array box was the same volume as the PS1400 box but I think it is roughly 0.4 cu ft larger at 3.2 cu ft (31 Hz). The 240Ti was 3.6 cu ft (30 Hz) and the 250Ti was 4.0 cu ft (28 Hz). I'm playing around with the 1501FE as time permits and it generally likes the same volumes. All the new 150xAL/FE generally like the same volumes although Greg and Jerry have been increasing the Bl in the latest versions.

[BMWCCA]

I have compared 4344's and the Arrays in the same room right next to each other.

I admire your work.

Both are tiny compared to the 4345 box size. Not that size matters . . . in anything!

Or does it? :hmm:


I'm fairly good at math but some here may remember I passed (or ceased to follow through on an offer) on a 1400 pair at something around $3800. At that time few were championing them as they are now and I questioned the provenance of this pair, which later seemed to be a non-issue.

As a bit of a fatalist, I figure my missing those led me to the 4345 "clones" I now enjoy. I think I'll put on some music. :D

[4313B]

I'm fairly good at math but some here may remember I passed (or ceased to follow through on an offer) on a 1400 pair at something around $3800.Sounds scary, were they stolen?

[BMWCCA]

Sounds scary, were they stolen?
Return with us now to those thrilling days of yesteryear: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?23210-Project-Array-1400-in-Va

I wonder if John B still has them. Something sticks in my mind (yeah, I know) about him offering them for sale.

[4313B]

I didn't remember John B buying them. $3,800 a pair is just nuts.

[BMWCCA]

$3,800 a pair is just nuts.We say that now, but no one was willing to pull the trigger back them for a long while and two auctions. The Array was still a good 25% more than the 4345 clones. That was a lot of coin at the time, and still is now.

I'm just calling it fate and I couldn't be happier about the way it turned out. Every once and a while I'll show my family pictures of the Arrays to show them what could have been the focal point of their living room. As big as they are, the 4345s still seem to blend in. I suspect I'd have a hard time putting a TV atop a 1400 Array, much less decorating one for Christmas!
;)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c378/BMWCCA1/DSC_1549.jpg

Listening right now to Bruce Cockburn's Small Source of Comfort on the 4345s. "Lois on the Autobahn".
I never think he gets enough credit for how his talent has grown over the decades. Happy I was able to see him live just six months ago.

[moparfan]

That 1400 pair was on offer for a while and slid down to that price. This was before the array series started getting their due here and before the stereophile thing.

[Robh3606]

Thanks guys! Those quarter rounds makes things real easy. Those cabinets are 3.8 cubit ft so a little bigger than the real thing.


I'm just calling it fate and I couldn't be happier about the way it turned out.

That's what matters most.


Happy I was able to see him live just six months ago.

I just got back from seeing the Moody Blues on the 45th Anniversary tour of Days and Future Passed. Would you believe it's been 45 years since the first time you heard Nights in White Satin!! Wow

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

I'm just calling it fate and I couldn't be happier about the way it turned out. Every once and a while I'll show my family pictures of the Arrays to show them what could have been the focal point of their living room. As big as they are, the 4345s still seem to blend in. I suspect I'd have a hard time putting a TV atop a 1400 Array, much less decorating one for Christmas!
;)This might help...

This afternoon my girlfriend and I were sitting on the couch enjoying music through the Everests and I mentioned that I was probably going to keep them. She then asked, "If you sell them what would you replace them with?" I told her that I'd bring back my old speakers. (1400 Arrays) Her response was quite surprising. "No, not those tragedies!" I guess this is one of the few instances where even BIG has a higher WAF. :bouncy:

Of course for me it is a balancing act between finances and musical enjoyment... I still genuinely like the 1400 Arrays... a lot, but when compared to the mighty Everests... well.;)


Widget

[4313B]

This afternoon my girlfriend and I were sitting on the couch enjoying music through the Everests and I mentioned that I was probably going to keep them. She then asked, "If you sell them what would you replace them with?" I told her that I'd bring back my old speakers. (1400 Arrays) Her response was quite surprising. "No, not those tragedies!" I guess this is one of the few instances where even BIG has a higher WAF. :bouncy::rotfl: She sounds like a very cool lady.

I showed my wife photos of your room with both systems. Thumbs down on the 1400 Arrays. Thumbs up on the Everest II's.

I showed her Guido's Everest II's as well and she was equally impressed.

She thoroughly appreciates that they are Greg's babies. She liked his house as well despite the fact that his entire living room is dominated by audio gear. The rest of his house made up for it, especially the retro kitchen.
I still genuinely like the 1400 Arrays... a lot, but when compared to the mighty Everests... well.Greg's 1200 Arrays are still at the top of my list. With grilles over the twelves and fifteens my wife could have lived with them.

[martin_wu99]

Diodes are cheaper.

And to answer your other question, the L212 system probably takes the cake for extended low frequency response.
Thank you,4313B.
Now i'm hesitated of making a choise:4344,4344mk2,4345,S3100MK2(used) or 1400.
Any suggetion?
Thank you

[4313B]

Thank you,4313B.
Now i'm hesitated of making a choise:4344,4344mk2,4345,S3100MK2(used) or 1400.
Any suggetion?SAM1HF over the low frequency transducer of your choice. If you are going to use subs then you might consider the 2206H as the midbass driver. They are supposed to be readily available and at 95 dB they are up in the efficiency range of the larger JBL Studio Monitors. I think the SAM1HF's and 2206H's retail out around $6,000 a pair.

It's a tough call between the 4345 and 1400 Array. The 1400 Array top end is obviously better but there is no way an LE14H can supplant a 2245H and 2122H. I guess given that the 4345 is roughly half to one-third the price it would be the better bet. Plus it arguably has an actual resale value if one cares about such things. But then there is that big huge ten cubic foot box. Yep, tough call. :p

Just one more reason to admire the Everest II and its ten cubic foot box I guess.

[boputnam]

It's a tough call between the 4345 and 1400 Array. The 1400 Array top end is obviously better but there is no way an LE14H can supplant a 2245H and 2122H. I guess given that the 4345 is roughly half to one-third the price it would be the better bet. Plus it arguably has an actual resale value if one cares about such things. :applaud:
But then there is that big huge ten cubic foot box. :rotfl:

[Ando]

I really like your LE14H enclosures Rob. I plan to do something similarly narrow for a pair of fifteens.

*****

For some reason I thought the Array box was the same volume as the PS1400 box but I think it is roughly 0.4 cu ft larger at 3.2 cu ft (31 Hz). The 240Ti was 3.6 cu ft (30 Hz) and the 250Ti was 4.0 cu ft (28 Hz). I'm playing around with the 1501FE as time permits and it generally likes the same volumes. All the new 150xAL/FE generally like the same volumes although Greg and Jerry have been increasing the Bl in the latest versions.

The combination of a Sam1 ( array crossover adjusted to allow higher sensitivity ) and 1501Fe would be a really tempting alternative. Sort of like the 4365 but with vertical horn. I would just about be willing to have a go at it . Pity there is no apparent way to buy 1501s.

Mike

[JeffW]

Pity there is no apparent way to buy 1501s.

Mike

Depends on how old you are. If you've got a few years to spare, it can happen!

ETA: Looks like the binding posts were some sort of gold color...

[4313B]

Depends on how old you are. If you've got a few years to spare, it can happen!

ETA: Looks like the binding posts were some sort of gold color...I love this driver...

I would like to order a whole bunch of them.

I'd like to try out the new 2216Nd too.




I just ordered a pair of 2206H's. I'm going to see how well they match up with the 1400 Array (SAM1HF) horns.

If it works out I'll probably look at some JBL Pro subs to finish it all out.

[timc]

I'm Currently considering two 2268's (SRX718s) as subs together with the 2213, to give it an easier time. There are some used for sale locally.

Oppinions?

[caladois]

If sometime LH offer a group order of 1501fe, I am your man for a pair !

[Robh3606]

The combination of a Sam1 ( array crossover adjusted to allow higher sensitivity ) and 1501Fe would be a really tempting alternative.

Yes I am tempted to just drop a pair of SAM-1HF stock over a pair of E-145's and using an electronic EQ to biamp them. They are both at 98db so no real attenuation at all.

Rob:)

[grumpy]

I had the same thought :) What the 145 won't do, I don't think I'd miss much.

[Robh3606]

Hello Grumpy

You are going to want subs under them. I know what you mean but once you hear them with subs they are just too lean. Best way to describe it is tons of slam but no shudder.

Rob:)

[4313B]

I wonder how much these will go for:

JBL E145 Pair In Perfect Working Condition (http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-E145-Pair-Perfect-Working-Condition-/290699782633?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43af0ea9e9)

21 Bids $212.50 Time left: 2d 11h 49m

[1audiohack]

I have been watching them too, always wanted to try them out.

[4313B]

I have been watching them too, always wanted to try them out.They are already too expensive for me since I would have to put fresh recones in them if I were to buy them.

And who knows what might show up if I were to buy a pair of recone kits. :rolleyes:

[audiomagnate]

What about SAM1HFs and a pair of 2225H's? I know we're getting into DIY territory but...

[Mr. Widget]

What about SAM1HFs and a pair of 2225H's? I know we're getting into DIY territory but...Getting there...? :D


Widget

[audiomagnate]

Getting there...? :D


Widget

I'm seriously considering it. What do you think?

[4313B]

4313B
I wonder how much these will go for:

JBL E145 Pair In Perfect Working Condition (http://www.ebay.com/itm/JBL-E145-Pair-Perfect-Working-Condition-/290699782633?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item43af0ea9e9)

21 Bids $212.50 Time left: 2d 11h 49m


Winning bid: US $435.00 [ 26 bids ]
Shipping: $70.00 UPS Ground

[martin_wu99]

Winning bid: US $435.00 [ 26 bids ]
Shipping: $70.00 UPS Ground

Ridiculous:eek:

[martin_wu99]

SAM1HF over the low frequency transducer of your choice. If you are going to use subs then you might consider the 2206H as the midbass driver. They are supposed to be readily available and at 95 dB they are up in the efficiency range of the larger JBL Studio Monitors. I think the SAM1HF's and 2206H's retail out around $6,000 a pair.

It's a tough call between the 4345 and 1400 Array. The 1400 Array top end is obviously better but there is no way an LE14H can supplant a 2245H and 2122H. I guess given that the 4345 is roughly half to one-third the price it would be the better bet. Plus it arguably has an actual resale value if one cares about such things. But then there is that big huge ten cubic foot box. Yep, tough call. :p

Just one more reason to admire the Everest II and its ten cubic foot box I guess.
E2 is too good to be true,too big to put in,too expensive to take home.
And besides S3100MK2(used 30KRMB),4344(used 38KRMB)4344mk2(used 40KRMB),,4345(used 52KRMB),1400(new 49KRMB),there is another option:4365(new 60KRMB)

which one is more valuble?

[4313B]

Ridiculous:eek:Not if they are what you want. A couple hundred dollars less than a brand new pair of LE14H-3's or LE14H-4's. I use the term "brand new" rather loosely here because they very well could show up looking quite used once they are shipped from Harman.

Harman has no mechanism for shipping most raw drivers appropriately like JBL did in times past. Obviously raw drivers like the 1500AL or 2206H come in their pretty print boxes but they are considered finished goods from JBL Professional. In the good old days JBL considered every single driver a finished good (and they didn't source alot of their drivers from OEM manufacturers either, they made everything themselves).

And then little things started to happen. Drivers bolted into boxes had their part numbers spray painted on them instead of getting the nice little foilcals. You know, supremely irritating little shenanigans like that... little clues that all is not well in Camelot.
E2 is too good to be true,too big to put in,too expensive to take home.
And besides S3100MK2(used 30KRMB),4344(used 38KRMB)4344mk2(used 40KRMB),,4345(used 52KRMB),1400(new 49KRMB),there is another option:4365(new 60KRMB)

which one is more valuble?I don't know.

[Titanium Dome]

Not if they are what you want. A couple hundred dollars less than a brand new pair of LE14H-3's or LE14H-4's. I use the term "brand new" rather loosely here because they very well could show up looking quite used once they are shipped from Harman.



Or you could get very lucky and have Harman blow out a bunch of PS1400s at $303 each shipped. The LE14H-3 drivers, when bolted inside rigid cabinets, come through pretty well, but it's a darn big box just to get a clean driver. Then you've got to get rid of the cabinet, the 400W amp, the grill, and all the extra mounting hardware, or store it and consider it a gift for future use.:p

(I'm keeping my extras for now, if anyone is thinking of asking.)

[4313B]

The Array horns are pretty killer. It is probably quite fortuitous that someone made the decision to also use them in the SAM1HF, still pretty pricey, but at half the cost of a 1400 Array they have considerable potential, especially mated up with any of the other legacy JBL transducers people seem to have piles of laying around. :p

[4313B]

If sometime LH offer a group order of 1501fe, I am your man for a pair !
My go to girl at Harman is Jamie. Call 1-800-336-4525, negotiate the menu until you get to "buy parts", tell the first operator you have an issue and want to speak to Jamie.
Call Harman and try and order yourself a pair? The part number is 443974-001.

[martin_wu99]

The Array horns are pretty killer. It is probably quite fortuitous that someone made the decision to also use them in the SAM1HF, still pretty pricey, but at half the cost of a 1400 Array they have considerable potential, especially mated up with any of the other legacy JBL transducers people seem to have piles of laying around. :p
JBL seems to have developed some killing combo,such as 435Al+045Ti(k2s5800 9800SE(435Be+045Be)1400,4338,4348,4700,4800),175Nd +138Nd(4429,4600)
I also found an very interesting things,i think that 4425,4344,S143,S3100 are JBL most popular productions,
because after years, they have 4425mk2,4344mk2,S143mk2,S3100mk2:D

[Mr. Widget]

The Array horns are pretty killer. It is probably quite fortuitous that someone made the decision to also use them in the SAM1HF, still pretty pricey, but at half the cost of a 1400 Array they have considerable potential, especially mated up with any of the other legacy JBL transducers people seem to have piles of laying around. :pChristmas may have come early for a lucky individual or two:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32947-SAM1HF-B-Stock&p=333395#post333395


Widget

[hjames]

Christmas may have come early for a lucky individual or two:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32947-SAM1HF-B-Stock&p=333395#post333395


Widget

Wow - I could get rid of that cheesey Walnut smith horn/2405 mid-high combo
and get a SamIAM to go with my 2234s ... better biamp it!

[JuniorJBL]

Wow - I could get rid of that cheesey Walnut smith horn/2405 mid-high combo
and get a SamIAM to go with my 2234s ... better biamp it!


I have heard them on top of some 2235's, Very nice!;)

[Ando]

Could anyone suggest some suitable woofers that are actually able to be bought new that would be suitable for use with SAM1s.
Thanks Mike

[Don C]

On harmanaudio right now are S3S 12 inch passive woofers for only 240 each. You need an amplifier and crossover though.

[JuniorJBL]

You could also buy 2 PS1400's from Harman and.........See above;)

[moparfan]

How come SAM1HF units aren't used flipped over with the tweeter in the middle instead of on top?

[4313B]

Christmas may have come early for a lucky individual or two:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32947-SAM1HF-B-Stock&p=333395#post333395


WidgetExciting! :)
On harmanaudio right now are S3S 12 inch passive woofers for only 240 each. You need an amplifier and crossover though.Very tempting but I'm personally done with foam surrounds.

[martin_wu99]

You lucky folks