New 2405 JBL Diaphragms - Are these bad? Pictrues - 1

[sekess]

Hi All,
I was getting ready to install these guys and did a close inspection. I bought them from a supposedly reputable JBL dealer. Did I get screwed?
The issues are the voice coil glue seems overflowed and the lead wires are not seated well. The first one seems to have both issues and the second diaphragm only has the raised lead wire.
I took some pictures. What do you guys think?
It seems that I could only attach 5 pictures. So, I attached 5 here and I will attach the other 4 in the next post.

Thanks in advance for your advice,
Steve

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[sekess]

Here are the rest of the pictures from my previous post. It was tough to get in close for the shots. I think you can make out what I'm referring to.
If you guys deem these diaphragms defective, I hope I can return them.

Thanks again for looking,
Steve

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[edgewound]

That is simply abominable. Send them back either to the dealer or directly to JBL with a note expressing your disbelief that such a BAD, unacceptable, poor excuse for a part could actually make in into a box to ship.

Ridiculous.

[sekess]

Thanks Edgewound,
I will call the dealer first thing in the morning. If I feel like I'm getting the runaround, then I will go directly to JBL. I was very surprised myself at what they looked like. The voice coil on the old diaphragm that I removed was beautiful compared to this.
I also don't understand why they ship these things in Styrofoam. You can see from the pics how the little specs get everywhere. And, they are full of static. So, they are somewhat annoying to remove.

Ok, lets hope I have good luck tomorrow.

If I need to go directly to JBL, is there anyone in particular that you guys like dealing with over there (and their phone number if you have)?

Thanks,
Steve

[Mike F]

That dont look right at all. I just installed a set myself and my biggest objection was that the polarities were not indicated, however, they did look much better than those.
With Edgewounds help (thanks Ken), I was able to indentify the terminals. Are yours ID`d?
I suppose these things are to be expected when they are no longer made in the good `ole US of A:blink:

[sekess]

Hi Mike,
I hadn't checked the polarity markings (hadn't gotten to that point yet). I just checked now and of course - there are none. What the heck is going on with JBL? Part of paying the higher prices for JBL parts is to avoid situations like these.

I contacted the distributor yesterday and sent him the pictures. He was supposed to contact JBL and get back to me. I will follow up today.

Mike, how did you go about figuring out the polarities on these guys?

Thanks,
Steve

[sekess]

There's a guy selling a D16R2405 on EBAY:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-JBL-2404H-2404H-1-2405-2405H-Diaphragm-D16R2405-/360438386626?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ebcd4fc2

Zoom in on the picture of the underside of the diaphragm (where the coil is located). Then, look at the wire lead coming off the right side of the coil (by the 33752 number stamp). That ribbon lead seems to be lifted up off the aluminum as well. I would think it should be glued down flush against the aluminum.

Is this also a defective diaphragm? Or, is a certain amount of lifting acceptable as far as JBL's quality acceptance goes?

Steve

[Mike F]

Hi Mike,
I hadn't checked the polarity markings (hadn't gotten to that point yet). I just checked now and of course - there are none. What the heck is going on with JBL? Part of paying the higher prices for JBL parts is to avoid situations like these.

I contacted the distributor yesterday and sent him the pictures. He was supposed to contact JBL and get back to me. I will follow up today.

Mike, how did you go about figuring out the polarities on these guys?

Thanks,
Steve

I loosely taped the `fram into the magnet assembly and very quickly applied 1.5 volts dc from a triple A battery and observed the travel.

After identifying the positive terminal, I chose to go against JBL convention and soldered it to the RED terminal instead of black.

Seems like paying top dollar for OEM parts these days is no longer a garantee of quality. Are your `frams made in Mexico? Is there a date stamp?
Please keep us posted.

[subwoof]

On the phase plug side of the diaphram there should be a small black magic marker dot.

This lead goes to the black terminal.

[sekess]

Hi Subwoof,
Right, I see that on the old diaphragms. But, there is nothing on the new ones on the phase plug side.

Steve

[sekess]

Hi Mike,
Yes, both boxes say made in Mexico. The dates are written on the inside of the voice coil formers. The worse diaphragm has the date "5/12/11". The slightly better one has "28-11-11".

I will keep you guys posted. As of now, my plan is to return them for a refund - regroup - and decide what to do next. I hate to go aftermarket. I really want to go with original JBL's (from what I've read on this forum). However, my confidence in their quality control is somewhat shaken right now. So, I'm going to take a little time and give it some thought.

Steve

[Mike F]

Hi Mike,
Yes, both boxes say made in Mexico. The dates are written on the inside of the voice coil formers. The worse diaphragm has the date "5/12/11". The slightly better one has "28-11-11".

I will keep you guys posted. As of now, my plan is to return them for a refund - regroup - and decide what to do next. I hate to go aftermarket. I really want to go with original JBL's (from what I've read on this forum). However, my confidence in their quality control is somewhat shaken right now. So, I'm going to take a little time and give it some thought.

Steve

I would definitely not go the aftermarket route. My 2405s came with a set and neither did much above 12k and what was below that was pretty sad in terms of frequency and amplitude.
Also, both `frams response were barely resembled one another.
This is my second experience with aftermarket (Chinese) `frams, first being for 2416s which were equally crap.
You may be better off getting some NOS d8r2405 instead of the current Mexican d16r2405 me thinks.
Too bad Radian or GPA dont reproduce a 2405.

[sekess]

Hi Mike,
Yea, I don't think I'll go after market. So, the D8R2405's are the new old stock ones? I'll have to keep an eye out. But, i don't recall seeing that part number on Ebay that often. Of course, i haven't been looking all that hard either.

Thanks again,
Steve

[sekess]

Ok,
Here's the update on these things. I sent these guys bask to the distributor with a long letter and I finally got a full refund. Just yesterday, I receive a package from JBL with another 2 new diaphragms. I did not order these things. They sent them to me in error. Anyway, I took a look at them. One seems ok. The other one has a raised lead where it should be glued down - just like the others. I will say this as well. Even the "good one" doesn't look that great. They are both going back tomorrow. Compared to the (older US made) blown one that I removed, these versions are junk. On the old ones, you can barely see the glue. They were meticulously put together. These Mexican phragms are ridiculous.
I have seen 5 recently - four were sent to me and the other one was a picture of a new one on Ebay (I think it's still listed on Ebay). Of those, only one did not have noticeable defects. And as I alluded above, I'm not that confident in the one I'm calling "good".
I cannot believe that these thing will yield good and consistent results. If the manufacturing is so shoddy, how can these yield repeatably good sounding diaphragms.
I am totally at a loss here. I have almost zero confidence in these things. The after market phragms have tested poorly here. So, I don't know which way to go. It would be nice if some aftermarket firm started producing quality replacements.
Anyway, that's where I'm at - just where I started.

Steve

[JeffW]

I'll sell you a pair of new good ones, several years old still in the boxes. Shoot me a PM.

I only have one pair, they are Steve's if he wants them, so please don't clog my PM box asking if I have anymore.

[Lee in Montreal]

US-made prices
Third world assembly quality

Hmmm....

[Guido]

Looks like a US-Mexican cooperation.

I had sooo many problems with bad cone kits that I'll not try diaphragms. No No :no:

[JeffW]

I'll try to attach pics.

[JeffW]

This pic and the previous 5 are of the first diaphragm.

Kapton tape, with a tiny piece of styrofoam dust, not the lead. You can make this tape wrinkle out in the first pic of the first set of pictures.

[JeffW]

Here's the pics of the second diaphragm. These pics are fairly high magnification, so what might look like a huge hump in the Kapton is really fairly small.

I've included the point of a needle in these pics to give some scale of the Kapton tape issue, and would like feedback from other members as to the severity of this Kapton issue in regards to sound quality. It's almost invisible to the naked eye, but I don't want to appear to be trying to put one over on anybody.

[edgewound]

What might look like a flaw under such magnification might be nothing at all. The definitive test is to install the thing, sweep it and listen to it.

The voice coil/diaphragm are at such miniscule excursion at these frequencies that making contact with the top plate and creating a buzz probably won't happen. Most importantly, all the packaging styrofoam debris needs to be blown or dusted off the voice coil to make sure it's clean....and round with no high voice coil windings to rub in the gap.

A competent technician might be able to clean up any possible production flaws....but really shouldn't have to....if you know what I mean.;)

[JeffW]

You're right, no doubt. Now that I think about it, I probably should have inspected these more closely before offering them for sale. There shouldn't be such egregious flaws in these things, so back in the drawer they go.

But at least it was caught before any money changed hands, that's worth taking the pics.

[Mike F]

I'll sell you a pair of new good ones, several years old still in the boxes. Shoot me a PM.

I only have one pair, they are Steve's if he wants them, so please don't clog my PM box asking if I have anymore.

Are those American or Mexican?

[JeffW]

They are American, purchased in '09. Apparently about the time they quit putting glue on the Kapton, but the windings are pretty much flawless.The only problem I had was posting super high magnification pics of things you can't see with the naked eye. Here's what they really look like. Basically one of the last near perfect pairs of D16R2405 to see the light of day. But no more, they won't be seeing the light of day or camera again.

[1audiohack]

You know your not supposed to offer anything for sale without telling me first anyway. Would have saved you all the trouble. ;)

[JeffW]

I swear I don't need this, I'll smash the dang things with a hammer.

[1audiohack]

What are you talking about? If I said something to aggravate you I really didn't intend to.

[JeffW]

What are you talking about? If I said something to aggravate you I really didn't intend to.

That wasn't aimed at you, dude. I was just frustrated that my efforts at trying to help the guy out were so fruitless. I didn't even care about the money, I just wanted to see him get his drivers going.

No good deed goes unpunished and all that, you can have the diaphragms for free if you need a pair.

[1audiohack]

Thanks Jeff! I thought I lit a fire and didn't know how.

It is amazing how the "No good deed" thing goes sometimes.

All the best,
Barry.

[maxwedge]

Close ups with hi-res always makes stuff look suspect when it really isn't.

PS: We're not in Intel's clean room here dammit!

[JeffW]

Close ups with hi-res always makes stuff look suspect when it really isn't.


Yep. My point and shoot does absolutely crappy macro, so I wanted to take some pics that showed just how nice these were. Boy, that really worked out.

Luckily, I rarely sell anything, so I won't ever be making that mistake again. I'll take fuzzy "eBay at arm's length" quality shots if there's ever a next time.

[1audiohack]

I'll take fuzzy "eBay at arm's length" quality shots if there's ever a next time.

You will have to use a cell phone camera for the full effect. :p

[sekess]

Before I call it a day here. I'd like to leave a comment.

I'm getting the feeling that I'm being made out as being difficult or the bad guy in all this.

Because I was asked to give an updated account of my experience, I did. Plus, I figured others could see the current state of affairs at JBL.
Next I was made a kind offer for a NOS pair of phrams. I was going to purchase them. Then after seeing the pics, I became concerned that the raised kapton could be an issue. I have never installed a set of these before and did not know if this was a critical manufacturing flaw or just a cosmetic issue. I could have used a little more definitive guidance here.
When I expressed my concerns, I was told that more pictures would be posted and that I could wait and see what more experienced members would say on the matter and that feelings would not be hurt even if negative comments came back. I said that would be great and that I would make a decision regardless of the comments by the next day.

The next thing I'm reading is this "no good deeds go unpunished" stuff. Obviously, I assume that this is being directed at me.

I don't know what sort of punishment I doled out here. I was just being cautious because I'm not familiar with potential diaphragm installation issues and even though I was being offered these parts at cost, which was very fair in my opinion, they are still expensive and not what I consider a throw-away if they don't work out.

Anyway, I don't get it. I never sensed any annoyance or frustration until I read the comments over here.

That's my account

Later

[grumpy]

This situation could probably be salvaged... probably better via PM's.
Very difficult to know what's going on in someone's head through the internet.


I've certainly had my share of odd experiences here, as well as some fantastic
camaraderie and support which has -well- outweighed the former. :cheers:


Any more, I just expect posting is like turning a crank on a jack-in-the-box...
then the surprises aren't so ... surprising.

Hope your diaphragm issue gets resolved one way or another.

[sekess]

Hey Grumpy,

Thanks - and I agree - this should all be private. Normally, I avoid these kinds of posts. I just felt I was being portrayed as some neurotic wackjob and wanted to explain the situation from my perspective. I still don't know where all the ill feelings came from.

Anyway, thanks again for the well-wishes. I hope my diaphragm situation gets resolved as well. I need to get the sizzle back in my system.

Steve

[JeffW]

It's hard to sell stuff like this unless it's between parties that know 100% what they are getting into. You had already seen the Kapton tape raised. It seemed to me that you already had doubts as to the viability of the diaphragms. Then a very experienced member states that there's a likelyhood of some issue unless they are installed be a competent tech.

So on one hand there's an idiot trying to sell diaphragms, on the other hand there's your gut feeling that they might be defective and a tech saying there could be issues.

So if I sell them to you and you botch the install, then it's back to because they were, to you, already hosed and I eat a pair of diaphragms. I'd never sell junk and I don't even want the possibility that I sold junk to be out there.

They are, to me, the nicest pair of D16R2405 I've seen. So in the long run it's just better for me to keep my diaphragms and you look elsewhere for some that will suit you better. I bet you could start a WTB thread in the marketplace and score a nicer pair in no time.

So good luck, no hard feelings on this end, and hope you get your drivers up and running.