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Titanium Dome
09-20-2004, 05:19 PM
Okay, as promised, I begin the Performance Series thread. I start right at the beginning, so it'll take some time for the thread to develop.

I received the majority of the Performance Series set up on Monday, December 22, 2003 via the Pilot Freight Co. The delivery was supposed to be at my home on December 21 at a pre-arranged appointment time, but the shipper forgot to put the pallet on the truck.

I was mad and let them know, so, hey, the shipping was free! They arrived exactly as scheduled on the 22nd.

I didn't get a photo of everything on the pallet, but here's the stack in my garage:

Don C
09-20-2004, 05:34 PM
Maybe you could start even earlier in the history and tell us where you found them available for sale. I have never seen a set in any store, a couple of sets have showed up on ebay, that's it. Oh, one think I have always wondered, it the finish vinyl or is it real wood?
And thanks for posting, I am very curious about them.

Titanium Dome
09-20-2004, 05:39 PM
Removing them from the boxes was a near religious experience. The excellent cabinetry, the sharp miters, the elongated octagon shape, the cocoon-like fabric clinging to the surfaces, and the impressive heft combined to make it a painstaking and deliberate process. The 80lb subs belied their relatively compact enclosures, making them prime hernia producers to the unwary 50+ male bending over the boxes.

Once safely removed, they had to be carried up to the first floor family room. Thank heaven the PT800s and PS1400s don't come pre-stacked. I could not have carried them! :no:

I thought that would be a good place to compare them to the powerful SVA1800s that drove the sound in that room.

Here they are in virginal form, before they've been stacked, wired, or driven.

johnaec
09-20-2004, 05:44 PM
TD - also tell us how you first came to the decision to go with the Performance Series.

John

Earl K
09-20-2004, 06:16 PM
Nice,,,, Very, Very, Handsome .

Now if JBL would just offer a variant of its' 3" drivers with aquaplas dusted Ti diaphragms;) - then I'd buy some. ( I've done a 180° on my thinking about Ti ).

Sorry - back to your story . :D

<. Earl K

Titanium Dome
09-20-2004, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Don C
Maybe you could start even earlier in the history and tell us where you found them available for sale. I have never seen a set in any store, a couple of sets have showed up on ebay, that's it. Oh, one think I have always wondered, it the finish vinyl or is it real wood?
And thanks for posting, I am very curious about them.

Honestly, one could get the impression that JBL doesn't want to sell these.

I first saw/heard them at a pro sound exhibition in McCormick Place in Chicago. That was in 2002 I think. There was a dealer there who had the usual pro stuff, some Synthesis gear, and a demo area with a Beech Performance Series set in 5.1. The floor was noisy, but I was impressed and intrigued. They were so detailed, precise, and open. They were righteously loud without a hint of strain. They were beautiful, and the ti was calling my name. In my mind, I had left the building. :beamup:

Back in LA, I tried to find a dealer (more on that later); failing that, I went to Northrdige, CA to the JBL demo room where at the time there was a Performance Series in Black Ash set up. It was even more impressive in that controlled setting. I also listened to the TiK and K2 stuff there. They were quite good, too, but beyond my means. Amazing stuff! :bouncy:

They said I'd need to go to an authroized Synthesis dealer to purchase them, so I found one, and I got a brilliant demo of a Hercules System (OMG!) but the owner said he wouldn't waste his time on a $10K purchase. He only did serious HT. Go somewhere else.

Thus began a familiar refrain: e-mail/phone/visit a Synthesis dealer, then get the cold shoulder for being a bottom feeder at less than $10k. I started to contact dealers outside of SoCal and eventually found one in Florida and one in upstate New York who would gladly purchase the Performance speakers and even sell them below retail. Woo-hoo! :thmbsup:

But wait: not all speakers are available; production and shipping delays; gotta ship from CA warehouse to FL back to me in CA; getting crazy.

Then I found a couple of dealers on the Internet. :hmm: Really cheap prices, too. Less than half of retail. Wow! When can I order? Right now? Yes!

One week: no confirmation. Two weeks: no confirmation. Three weeks: no confirmation. What's this? The JBL links on the Web site is gone. "No longer carry JBL." Phone calls, emails, threats, get papers to file fraud in another state (fun), travel to said state and go to courthouse, THEN the seller says, "Here's your money back." :bash:

So, finally, the dealer in New York contacts me and says he's got a Performance Series return from a customer. Only one box ever opened, the wife said "Not in my house" to that many speakers and for that much money, and back they came. Would I be interested in them for a few thousand off retail? Say at dealer cost? You'll Fax me the invoice? Sure.

That was December 15, 2003.

mikebake
09-20-2004, 08:14 PM
Really cool thread, but not a good JBL scenario you paint.........

Titanium Dome
09-21-2004, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by mikebake
Really cool thread, but not a good JBL scenario you paint.........

You're right. I think JBL could sell a bunch of these if people could actually find them and buy them.

It's a testament to my personal lust to have them after hearing them that I persevered in getting them. Many times I decided I'd had enough and auditioned other units.

I tried out Sonus Faber Cremona, Boston Acoustic VR-M90, MartinLogan Prodigy, and Vienna Acoustics Reference Strauss (a lot like a JBL L7 in looks and sound BTW), plus listened to some Internet brands at aquaintances' homes. Yet, I persisted in getting the Performance speakers.

After all, I'd done some real time listening to expensive Cremona systems, Prodigy systems, etc. Why spend time on JBL's little known and poorly marketed Performance Series? Well, because the Performance Series is pretty darn good, and it saved me from spending $20,000 plus on speakers that might have more snoot factor and look prettier in some cases, but didn't deliver better sound. In fact, some of those high end speakers were absolutely unacceptable to me in their sonic personalities. I like it the way JBL, God, and California intended it.

Let me sing the praises of the titanium and titanium alloy drivers and JBL's excellent magnets, cabinets, and crossovers. Greg Timbers, the design guru behind the vaunted JBL 4300 series, the L200B, L300, L250ti, and K2 series, deserves a whole lot of credit for his vision in creating the legacy heir of that tradition, the Performance Series.

So maybe there was a sense of destiny at play, too. :blah:

Okay, I'll stop now. More pictures tomorrow.

Titanium Dome
09-21-2004, 11:33 AM
Here is a full frontal shot of the PT800 docked on top of the PS1400. In the background is the L7 it will dethrone.

This Performance stack weighs in around 120lb. (if you count the hardware), so it's not the heaviset beast in the world, but it's 45lb. heavier than the L7 is.

From the top:
1" pure titanium, rubber surround, dome tweeter with EOS Waveguide
4" titanium, rubber surround, inverted dome, pistonic drive midrange with cast aluminum frame
8" titanium alloy, rubber surround, inverted dome woofer with cast aluminum frame
14" Aquaplas, rubber surround, 4" edge-wound voice coil subwoofer with cast aluminum basket
Dual Free Flow air motion apetures (AKA ports!)

Even though the drivers look pretty good in the picture, these are absolutely stunning in person. Despite their metallic nature, they look warm and inviting, and they glow with a soft intensity. They really draw you to want to touch them, to feel their smoothness and the perfect dome cradled in the deep black rubber.

Wait a minute. I'm having a moment. :smsex:

Okay, here's the picture.

Earl K
09-21-2004, 11:52 AM
Hi TD ( hope you don't mind that abridgement - a TD in my business does garner great respect :) )


these are absolutely stunning in person.

YEP !

Any chance of posting pictures of the individual components ? I'm a component ( "fit & finish" ) sort of guy ( - perhaps I'm partially Japanese ) .

<. Earl K :thmbsup:

Titanium Dome
09-21-2004, 11:57 AM
There are at least four ways for the PT800 tower and PS1400 sub to interact, both stacked and unstacked. I tried all four and ended up using the set up you see, with the units completely docked, including the gold-plated connecting straps.

This means that the speaker wire goes direct to the sub's speaker connecting posts, then the straps go from the attachment posts on the top of the sub to the speaker binding post on the PT800. The JBL nameplate on the top of the PS1400 pops out to reveal the attachment posts underneath.

Sorry about the overly bright picture, but you get the idea.

Titanium Dome
09-21-2004, 12:17 PM
Just below the connecting straps on the back of the sub is the amplifier and crossover connection panel. Again, the picture isn't the best, but I'm over 50 and bending down while trying to focus the freakin' digital is not my best thing. :no:

As you can see, I'm a spade kind of guy for speaker wire ends. I buy them and the wire at a local electronics store (a "real" electronics store, not a BB, CC, GG, RS kind of store), then crimp, solder, and cover 'em myself. I like the stability, wide contact area, and tightness of the spade.

My least favorite feature in the Performance Series is the timing on the auto shut off for the sub's amplifier. If the sub isn't used for a while, it automatically shuts off, which can be annoying. If there's a lot of quiet dialog for example and it goes on too long, I start to get paranoid about the sub shutting down with a slightly audible whump and the stress screws up the experience. So, I don't use auto anymore. I have the sub turned on and off by a 12V trigger at the power source.

Valentin
09-21-2004, 05:39 PM
So how did they compare to the sva1800 I actually own sva2100 and the sva to the L7

Titanium Dome
09-22-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Valentin
So how did they compare to the sva1800 I actually own sva2100 and the sva to the L7

Wow, 2100s, huh? I've often characterized the 1800s as being able to "take off the top of your head, scramble you brains, and blow them all over the back wall." I can't imagine what a skull crushing experience the 2100s must be. :bomb:

The SVAs are without a doubt some of the most in your face, powerful, direct speakers I've ever heard. I absolutely love them. The SVA design philosophy makes a lot of sense to me, and the dynamic range and power of the drivers is amazing. Yet for all the power and drive, they are very nimble and quick on their feet, like the great superstar athletes of the world.

A pair of them (at least 1800s) is perfect for music, especially hard rock, club and dance tracks, opera, jazz, country, well, heck all music. For HT, though, they can be overwhelming if not properly tamed. Maybe that's why the sole SVA survivor, the bottom-of-the-line SVA1500 is rebadged as the HT Series and the others are gone.

Drat! I meant to put this kind of stuff in an SVA thread, but as you can see, once I got started, it was hard to stop. :D

The Performance Series is better all around and is much more listenable over time. But nothing ever got my attention and kicked me in the groin like the SVA1800s did the first time I really opened them up. They drank every Watt of power available and kicked it back out with mind-numbing clarity and force. Really, put 400W into these things and TURN THEM UP. Amazing!

As for the L7s, they couldn't keep up with the SVAs, especially right out of the box. The SVAs with their horns and dual drivers can tackle almost any environment and they still sound great.

The K2 Series is a magnitude better than the SVA, but the K2s were less surprising to me for having heard the SVAs first.

jblnut
09-22-2004, 07:52 PM
Damn those look nice ! And I'm sure they sound even better !

I have a doctor friend who has finally paid off his loans and is building a home theater. He's looking to me to provide recommentations and I can't think of a better system to recommend in his price range. So - where the hell can I find/order these ??? Any idea what he can expect to pay for the full 5.1 setup ?

If I can't source these I'm going to have to dig deep and try to build a matching 5-speaker 4425/4435 or 4412/4410 setup using ebay stuff. Might take more time then he has patience though.

I suppose I could use the new E series stuff now that the Studio line is gone but I haven't heard any of it yet. I have two friends (yeah I had something to do with it) with S38/sCenter/S28 systems and they actually sound very good - especially good for the $$$.

jblnut

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 12:17 AM
Originally posted by jblnut
Damn those look nice ! And I'm sure they sound even better !

... So - where the hell can I find/order these ??? Any idea what he can expect to pay for the full 5.1 setup ?

jblnut

The best source is at www.harmanaudio.com since it's an official outlet and the prices are discounted by a third. These are remanufactured with full factory warranties. The $1500 PT800 and PC600 speakers are right around $1000, and the $1599 PS1400 is around $1100.

Go to the site and check out the "Specials" drop down menus on the left. Select the "JBL Home" setting in the "Search By Brand" drop down and you go to a long page of JBL speakers. Once it's loaded scroll all the way to the bottom and there you'll see Performance Series and even occasionally TiK speakers listed.

I haven't seen any K2s there, though!:(

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 12:32 AM
The PC600 Center has two 6" titanium drivers, one mounted on either side of the tweeter and 4" midrange. The use of tweeter and midrange that are identical to the PT800 in a vertical orientation really helps to stablize the soundstage and allows for very smooth panning across the front. The timbre match is so close that JBL says the PC600 and PT800 can be used interchangeable, and really I cannot tell the difference without looking.

On the other hand, why build a center unless it does something special? And this one does by keeping the soundstage intact while providing plenty of midbass oomph when needed. Dialog is clear.

I prefer the enclosure design over some of the straight across designs that we've seen and continue to see in some speaker lines.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 12:46 AM
A sad group of L7s and L5s awaits redistribution, along with an SVA1800. All found new life in additional systems and joined the original JBL L100 Century speakers serving their master as he saw fit. :screwy:

Anyway...the old JBLs were bowed but not broken, and they're still operating with dignity. I just can't seem to part with them, even though my GF keeps asking, "Why do you need so many speakers?"

4313B
09-23-2004, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Earl K
Any chance of posting pictures of the individual components?Ditto! :)

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Giskard
Ditto! :)

If by that you mean take them out of the enclosures, then the short answer is "No." At this point I'm not prepared to dismantle them, although I do think about it from time to time.

However, if you mean close ups, I've done that and I'll post them. I tried to keep the resolution as high as the forum will accept so you can zoom in if you want. I can't vouch for the resolution of imgaes taken off the forum, however. Here's the 8" titanium alloy woofer.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 11:12 AM
Okay, I had to reduce the resolution due to forum image size limits. So I hope the images are still useful. The visual difference between the 8" driver and the 4" driver isn't much, but I'll include it with this post.

The 4" is titanium rather than a titanium alloy. The fit and finish of these babies is extraordinary. Aren't they beautiful? :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 11:36 AM
Then there's the 1" titanium dome tweeter with EOS Waveguide. This is a real dome, whereas the 8" and 4" drivers are inverted domes, though that's hard to see in the pictures.

The three tweeters across the front soundstage (L/C/R) merge those upper highs very well, due I believe to the effectiveness of the Waveguide. Panning across the front is spectacular. For example, the cymbals running back and forth across the front on Deep Purple's Speed King never sounded so good.

The high frequency synth sounds buzzing around Telarc's Spectacular on a full PLII Cirrus ES 7.1 are seamless thanks to the Waveguide's effectiveness in creating complete dispersion patterns side to side and front to back. :hyp:

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 11:47 AM
For music, it's fine to leave the speaker grills off, but for HT the speakers can be visually distracting. Often they look better than what's on the screen.

Here's what it looks like with the grilles on. It really tones them down appearance wise.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 11:59 AM
Sorry I don't have a better image of the sub, but then you've all seen Aquaplas subs before. In my case, it's mostly a matter of not wanting to kneel down to get a good shot. I can get down; it's the getting up that's the problem. ;)

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 12:29 PM
And finally, for a little perspective, here's a profile view of a stacked Performance unit. Despite its wide face, the PT800 has a slim profile from front to back. This makes it a little unstable if you simple plop it on a traditonal speaker stand, so if you have kids or pets don't do that unless you attach it securely.

The PT800 and PS1400 are a rock solid unit however. Docking the units is straightforward. All the parts are supplied, the directions are simple, and everything fits perfectly--no squeezing, bending, forcing needed.

The disassembly and reassembly of some parts requires a bit of care, but it's all explained fully. Those with big hands might find the final step, securing bolts to the bottom plate of the PT800, a bit tight, and unless you lie on the floor, it's a blind step, but I had no problem with it.

You can also see more clearly in this picture the octoganal shape of the PT800 and PS1400 enclosures. Eliminating the 90 degree corners on the long axis of the enclosure and making the enclosures different dimensions front to back and side to side really cuts down on enclosure harmonics and driver interference due to enclosure dynamics.

From this angle, the PT800 looks much more delicate that it does from the front and much smaller than the PS1400.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2004, 12:34 PM
Sorry for the white jitter around some of the enclosure edges. Not sure why that's there except as an artifact of compression and reducing the resolution. :confused:

johnaec
09-23-2004, 01:21 PM
What I'm curious about is the voice coil size for the 4", 6", and 8" drivers. For example, does the 8" have something like a 3" VC suspended in a spider, with the VC somehow attached to the back of the 8" inverted dome? Or is the voice coil actually at the outer edges, more like a HF unit? Are the 4, 6, and 8 inch sizes all built the same way?

John

Earl K
09-23-2004, 04:23 PM
Yep ,

Fantastic looking stuff.

As a long time SR sort of guy , I have to admit to being very attracted to that "look" of naked Ti diaphragms embedded in black granite obelisks .

Sci-Fi fans can fill in the rest themselves . :beamup:

:D Earl K

Earl K
09-23-2004, 04:50 PM
Hi John

Here's todays prices from Harman for the relevant components in the PT800.
Maybe someone here will purchase a pair of these shielded 4" Ti mids to try in their 250ti(s) - just as a lark .

< Earl K

Earl K
09-23-2004, 05:11 PM
Hi

And here are todays' prices for the components found in the PC600 .

<> Earl K

johnaec
09-23-2004, 05:27 PM
OK - who's going to be the first to put together a DIY project of the Performance series? Those component prices seem VERY reasonable!

John

Robh3606
09-23-2004, 05:47 PM
I wouldn't mind swapping out my 115H-1 in my XPL-200's and give that 8" Titanium driver a whirl. I was thinking of playing with 2118H's but that driver sure looks nice:D

Rob:)

Earl K
09-23-2004, 06:26 PM
Those component prices seem VERY reasonable!

Yep,

AND, a warranty of sorts / no eBay flake-outs from sellers who never learned how to pack and then blame "their own short-comings on UPS / an expectation of shipping accountablility without finger-pointing from a "motivated seller" / SOTA components that are just way-too cool / etc. etc.

Rob, do figure you need something bigger than the 6" found in the PC600 ?


:D EarlK

Robh3606
09-23-2004, 06:58 PM
"Rob, do figure you need something bigger than the 6" found in the PC600 ?"

Well no! might even fit in the existing hole! Nice:D Have to look into that after I sell off some stuff.

Rob :)

MJC
09-23-2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Titanium Dome
Honestly, one could get the impression that JBL doesn't want to sell these.

They said I'd need to go to an authroized Synthesis dealer to purchase them, so I found one, and I got a brilliant demo of a Hercules System (OMG!) but the owner said he wouldn't waste his time on a $10K purchase. He only did serious HT. Go somewhere else.
That has been my thoughts for over two years, since I first read a review in SGHT. The only Synthesis dealer around here doesn't have a showroom, nor in northern Cal. And then for a dealer to tell you to f**k off because you only want to spend $10k!

John Y.
09-24-2004, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Titanium Dome

Anyway...the old JBLs were bowed but not broken, and they're still operating with dignity. I just can't seem to part with them, even though my GF keeps asking, "Why do you need so many speakers?"

To which you should reply "unlike you, my dear, speakers have not yet reached the pinnacle of perfection. I may need to try out more speakers, but you are a keeper!"

Mr. Widget
09-24-2004, 10:57 AM
Originally posted by John Y.
To which you should reply "unlike you, my dear, speakers have not yet reached the pinnacle of perfection. I may need to try out more speakers, but you are a keeper!"


Damn! So smooth. If only I could say things like that and not grin.:D

Actually I can't complain, Mrs. Gadget, as Bo likes to say has been very understanding of my affliction.

Widget

John Y.
09-24-2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Widget
Damn! So smooth. If only I could say things like that and not grin.:D

Actually I can't complain, Mrs. Gadget, as Bo likes to say has been very understanding of my affliction.

Widget

Good wives are understanding. That's why WAF should mean wife APPROVAL factor! Mine is very understanding except for an occasional scowl as a speaker wire crosses the listening room. That subsides when I vow to run it over the ceiling or under the floor. Most criticism comes from systems which are not in use and haven't been for a decade. Good thing we have a separate home theater room above the garage and we don't have this to contend with in our regular living space.

John Y.

scott fitlin
09-25-2004, 11:50 AM
I mean I look at the Hartsfield in your avatar, John, and I couldnt possibly see someone NOT liking that! Thats furniture as well as audio, and really nice looking furniture at that!


Thank goodness sound is an integral part of my buisiness, no one would want my monsters in a house! But it gives me the opportunity and area I need!


:cool:

Titanium Dome
09-26-2004, 11:20 AM
:bs:

Here's a little perspective on my personal history with speaker break in and with the Performance Series in particular.

When I got my first "real" speakers in 1970, they were L100s. Before that I'd purchased some discount stuff like Electrophonic and Audiovox, but the JBLs were worlds apart from them. :thmbsup:

Even though I had aspirations of being a knowledgeable audio enthusiast, I had the sophistication of a hard rockin' college musician. :rockon1: So if there were such a thing as break in with new speakers, it was unknown to me and I played them loud and hard from day one. I did not anticipate or listen for any change.

In subsequent years, I've had a lot more speakers, but given the realities of life, most of them were used, remanufactured, or floor demos, so if break in were a reality, it had already been done for better or for worse by others before I got them.

With the SVA 1800s and the L7s, I didn't do anythying special other than be a little more respectful during the first day or two of operation. And I listened more carefully to them. Honestly, it's impossible to say if the sound improved a tad after a few days or, more likely, that my ears adjusted to the new sound. However, any improvement after a so-called break in period was slight and just as likely caused by my subjective response as by any technical cause. :screwy:

Now we come to the Performance Series. The two sets I heard before purchase were not new. They had been played a lot, and loudly as well. At the Chicago trade show, the environment was challenging. At the JBL showroom in Northridge, the environment was quite good.

My home environment is somehwere between the two; hopefully, closer to the JBL listening room than to the trade hall. However, its one advantage is that I'm intimately familiar with it. When the Performance Series came, I kept the L7/L5 set up in the room for a week to see what subjective comparisons I could make.

Before listening to the Performance Series for the first time, I gave myself a good 15 minutes of L Series listening to be sure I had a fix on the sound. Then in a few minutes I switched the connections, fired up the Performances, and...

:wtf:

Tight, nondynamic, strained--what have I done? Did I just waste thousands of dollars?

Well, thank heaven for J. Gordon Holt, whose review I found online as I searched for an explanation. To quote: "The Performance system sounded unpromising when I fired it up—pinched, tizzy, almost shrill—but these shortcomings rapidly diminished with use."

So over the next week I alternated between the Performance Series and the L Series in a number of listening sessions, and darned if the Performances didn't sound much, much better by day two and outstanding (as I remembered them) by day three, until it just wasn't fair to the L Series to keep asking them to compete.

So this post serves as a suggestion/warning to anyone who buys the Performance Series or any of its Ti drivers to give them a little time before judging them. Either the drivers, or your ears, or both might require a little time to adjust.

FWIW.

:D

4313B
10-04-2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Robh3606
I wouldn't mind swapping out my 115H-1 in my XPL-200's and give that 8" Titanium driver a whirl. I was thinking of playing with 2118H's but that driver sure looks nice:D

Rob:) Well, here are some numbers for you to play around with then:

908Ti

Qts 0.37
Qes 0.38
Qms 13.71
Fs 44.45 Hz
Vas 22.05 liters
Mms 33.01 grams
Bl 11.15 T*m
SPL 88.9
Re 5.12 ohms

It's a very nice midbass driver, just don't blow it up with too much information below ~ 80 Hz.

Titanium Dome
10-04-2004, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Giskard


It's a very nice midbass driver, just don't blow it up with too much information below ~ 80 Hz.

Yes, the both the manual and the reviews I've read are adamant about that.

Robh3606
10-04-2004, 05:08 PM
Thanks Giskard

Almost missed the T/S on the driver.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
11-13-2004, 08:47 PM
Giskard asked for some measurements of the enclosures, so here's the externals:

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 10:23 AM
Here's the PT800 cabinet with the drivers removed. You can see the rubberized (neoprene?) gaskets for each driver. The cabinet is made of 1" thick MDF and filled with SonoGlas(TM) dampening material. The cabinet is divided by a sealed MDF IsoPower(TM) baffle 11" from the inside bottom (between the 8" and 4" openings) of the enclosure.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 10:34 AM
Here's a shot inside the cabinet to the Straight-Line Signal Path(TM) (SSP) crossover network. You can also see the gray-sheathed cable. It reads "JBL Optimum Performance Series(TM) Designed and Manufactured by Monster Cable(R) - Ultra High Purity Copper." I'd guess it to be 14Ga, but the sheathing is so thick it could be 16.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 10:39 AM
Since I had the cabinet open, here's a look at the IsoPower(TM) baffle that isolates the 8" woofer from the rest of the drivers.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 11:36 AM
From the backside, the EOS WaveGuide(TM) is an oval with two mounting posts for the TI dome tweeter, which states "Made In France." Hmmm. Who could that be?

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 11:42 AM
The 904TI 4" midrange is a work of art that just can't be captured in a picture. You have to hold it, feel it, turn it to look at it. I can't show you the pistonic drive mechanism, or the unique truncated cone-shaped piston housing, the inverted dome... Oh well, for those of you who can only look through my camera lense, here's the back side.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 11:46 AM
BTW, though the vent looks off-center in the picture, it's perfectly centered on the unit. I think the reflection of light appears to throw it off center.

I'm not a photographer in a studio--just a guy with a digital camera and a blue bedspread! :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 11:53 AM
The surprisingly heavy 908TI is the 8" woofer. Its appearance is a bit more predictable, but pictures do not do it justice either. As with the 904TI, it uses an inverted dome and states "Made In USA" on the back. :cheers:

I'm always glad to see that on a quality product.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 11:55 AM
Just to give you a perspective on the 908TI's depth and structure, here's a side view.

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 12:06 PM
Here's a poor picture of the 904TI from the side, but it does show the truncated cone-shaped housing for the pistonic drive. You can almost see the perforated piston ring under the housing where the copper wire attches at the blue adhesion point. Or something like that... :hmm:

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 12:25 PM
For the perpetually curious, the 8" driver is held in place by four 5/32"x1" hex head stainless steel screws. The 4" driver and tweeter each are held in place by four 7/64"x3/4" hex head stainless steel screws.

On the bottom of each PT800 cabinet is a formed steel plate that both adds weight to the bottom of the enclosure and serves as the attachment point for the PT800 if it is docked on a PS1400. It's painted black.

I think that pretty much covers everything.

All I can say is that if you get a chance to audition these, do so. At $1500 (PC600, PT800) or $1599 (PS1400), these speakers are at the sweet spot. You'd have to spend a lot more per speaker to beat them IMO, yet they're close enough to be attainable by an average person (like me) who's willing to scrimp and save to get them.

I couldn't do that with $3k or $5k or $12k each speakers, yet I don't have to, because with the immutable Law of Diminishing Returns in the speaker world, I'll put these babies up against and challenge just about anything in the sub $10k category and feel like the winner every time. :blah:

Yes, I love 'em! :coolness:

Mr. Widget
11-14-2004, 12:29 PM
The 904TI 4" midrange is a work of art that just can't be captured in a picture. You have to hold it, feel it, turn it to look at it. I can't show you the pistonic drive mechanism, or the unique truncated cone-shaped piston housing, the inverted dome... Oh well, for those of you who can only look through my camera lense, here's the back side.
Mr. Dome,

It sounds like you are in love.:rotfl:

Widget

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 04:35 PM
I was married for 28 years, and had ten or twelve of the better years of my life. I've had my L100s for about 34 years and still love them as much as the day I first brought them home. I made sure they stayed with me after the settlement. :biting:

Now I've had the Performance Series for about a year, and so far my adoration of them continues to grow. If they last longer than twelve years, they'll beat my EX, and I'm hopeful I'll still adore them 30 years from now. :D

Titanium Dome
11-14-2004, 04:38 PM
I received a PM that the JPEG of the SSP(TM) cut off the left side, so here's a slightly better view. Now those of you who want to catalog the parts can see everything.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2004, 10:36 PM
For those who wondered what happened to the pictures of the 906TI, here they are. There are two of these in the PC600 center, along with a 904TI and a pure titanium tweeter. They're held in place by 5/32"x1" stainless steel screws, same as the 908TI in the PT800s.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2004, 10:41 PM
This profile shot shows the shielding on the magnet and the general shape of the cast aluminum frame. A peek inside the cabinet showed that the 904TI was shielded as well, though I did not take a photo. Guess I fell asleep. :snore:

jandregg
11-17-2004, 06:21 AM
Great posting. It is nice to see some of the newer stuff.


John

Titanium Dome
11-17-2004, 12:55 PM
Although many of you have seen this driver, I'm certain some have not. This 14" AquaPlas(TM) subwoofer is a heavy, powerful unit that is held in place by eight 5/32"x2" stainless steel bolts (not screws). Four of the bolts go into the LE14H-3's cast frame, while the other four go in the colored aluminum ring that goes around the frame as a piece of trim. This makes the LE14H-3 mounting trim look the same as the other Performance Series drivers when installed in the cabinets.

When I add a picture of the subwoofer's cabinet, you'll be surprised by a thing or two in there.

For now:

Titanium Dome
11-17-2004, 12:58 PM
Here's a look at the side elevations, one showing the sticker and the other the spring clips for the wires.

Zilch
11-17-2004, 01:49 PM
I ask again: Can LE14A's and H's be reconed with H-3 cones, i.e., converting them to rubber surround subwoofs?

Seem's like if there were gap differences, etc., JBL'd be calling them something else, no?

No, huh? Well, "Poop," then....:moon:

4313B
11-17-2004, 02:27 PM
I ask again: Can LE14A's and H's be reconed with H-3 cones, i.e., converting them to rubber surround subwoofs?Nope.

And this sentence is to satisfy the ten character message limit.

Mr. Widget
11-17-2004, 02:30 PM
......

And this sentence is for the ten character message limit.

:rotfl:


I ran into that too. Maybe that could be addressed.

That LE14H-3 frame is quite impressive! I hadn't seen the back of one before.

Widget

Don McRitchie
11-17-2004, 03:20 PM
Fixed

MJC
11-17-2004, 05:06 PM
All I can say is that if you get a chance to audition these, do so. At $1500 (PC600, PT800) or $1599 (PS1400), these speakers are at the sweet spot. You'd have to spend a lot more per speaker to beat them IMO, yet they're close enough to be attainable by an average person (like me) who's willing to scrimp and save to get them.
Yes, I love 'em! http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/cool_shades.gifComparing them to 1977 vintage L212/B212, that were $2k for 3 speakers, that is a good price. The $2k of '77 would be about $10k now, and for that $10k now you get 5 main speakers and 2 subs. And the towers can be had from the Harman online store for just $1050-that's almost a 1/3 off! I only managed to get 1/4 off the price of my original L212/B212.

But alas, I've just recenty completed a 7 channel L212/dual sub1500 system. Which will never be sold, just passed onto my son.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
So I saved about $8khttp://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif, though be it for a 27 year old design. But at a later point in time....

Titanium Dome
11-17-2004, 10:43 PM
for that $10k now you get 5 main speakers and 2 subs. And the towers can be had from the Harman online store for just $1050-that's almost a 1/3 off!


Don't hate me, BUT...

I got a PC600, six PT800s, and three PS1400s for way less than $10k. Two of the PT800s were used off eBay, but everything else was new in the box. :banana:

Titanium Dome
11-17-2004, 11:19 PM
Here's an interior shot of the PS1400 cabinet. There are a few interesting things.

1) You can see the dual FreeFlow(TM) port architecture (as JBL describes it). It "extends bass response by coupling internal air motion to a computer-designed aperture that allows for maximum air flow without audible 'port noise'." The ports are flared, as is easily seen.

2) The 400W built in amp is completely housed inside a plastic enclosure. It's smaller than I expected, and I have no idea how heat is dissipated. There are no vents that I could find. Its output is labeled for 6 Ohms.

3) The wire is interesting. Coming out of the high pass filter (upper left) for the docked PT800, it's the previously described Monster stuff. However, the wire that goes to the massive LE14H-3 is thin. It's labeled "AWM 1007 VW-1 80ºC 300V E108485 16AWG REI HSING" so JBL obviously feels that 16Ga is plenty to feed that massive driver.

4) You can see two ribs of parallel bracing made of 1" thick MDF.

Titanium Dome
11-17-2004, 11:23 PM
For those that want a close up view of the filter that sends high pass material to a docked PT800, here you go!

Mr. Widget
11-17-2004, 11:27 PM
Well it looks like JBL still isn't "wasting" money on expensive crossover components. ;)


Monster must give them the wire for advertising considerations. Certainly that large electrolytic cap is going to have a much greater sonic impact than any wire could.

Widget

Mr. Widget
11-17-2004, 11:36 PM
2) The 400W built in amp is completely housed inside a plastic enclosure. It's smaller than I expected, and I have no idea how heat is dissipated. There are no vents that I could find. Its output is labeled for 6 Ohms.

I would expect that the amp uses a switching power supply. They are very efficient and don't produce much heat. They seem to sound fine on subs. The "1500 wpc" amp on my Velodyne is also remarkably free of cooling vents or heat sinks and must weigh a full 10-15lbs! These modern sub amps are surprising.

Widget

MJC
11-18-2004, 12:05 PM
Don't hate me, BUT...

I got a PC600, six PT800s, and three PS1400s for way less than $10k. Two of the PT800s were used off eBay, but everything else was new in the box. :banana:
I was just figuring at list price of $1500/ea, not at the $1050 online price or for a cheaper price else where.

Titanium Dome
11-18-2004, 01:27 PM
I was just figuring at list price of $1500/ea, not at the $1050 online price or for a cheaper price else where.

The irony of it is I couldn't find a place to buy them at full price. Earlier in the thread I recounted my failure to get any authorized dealers to sell them to me, which would have cost $12k+ with the extra PT800s and PS1400. So eBay and dealer returns to the rescue! :D

Earl K
11-19-2004, 02:20 PM
I ask again: Can LE14A's and H's be reconed with H-3 cones, i.e., converting them to rubber surround subwoofs?

That basket and magnet assembly strongly resemble the 2217h - 14 inch "Pro" sub found in the "Array" series.


regards < Earl K

Earl K
11-20-2004, 07:18 AM
THANKS Titanium Dome ! for all those nice component pics .

- They show a nice continuance of that "engineered by JBL" quality - that we have come to love and expect.

- Plus somewhat, a "tip of the hat" towards that previous legacy driver, the le30 .

<. Earl K

MJC
11-21-2004, 10:20 AM
The irony of it is I couldn't find a place to buy them at full price. Earlier in the thread I recounted my failure to get any authorized dealers to sell them to me, which would have cost $12k+ with the extra PT800s and PS1400. So eBay and dealer returns to the rescue! :D
Ya, I remember that. I assume, by the pic, that you have at least two docked to the subs. Do you have the surrounds mounted on the walls or mounted on their stands?
I find that the shallow depth of the L212s, which is about the same as the PT800s, makes them very easy to mount to the walls. The side units I have mounted upside down, with the tweeter slightly higher than the tweeter on the two mains, mounted on their bases. The two rears I have mounted at the same elevation as the sides, but right side up.

Titanium Dome
11-21-2004, 04:08 PM
As you'll see in the attached diagram, I have an unusual room. It's 24 ft. long and 17 ft. wide at the front, 12 ft. wide at the back. This helps in some ways, as it breaks down the room reflections a bit, though it'd be better if there were no right angles at all I think.

On the angled side, there's an opening right about at the point of the first reflections, and it extends to the point where the right side surround needs to be placed. As a result of the opening and the angled wall, I can't mount the PT800 on the wall there, so it's on a stand. The left side surround is on the wall, as are the rears. They're all slightly above the height of the front PT800s which you've correctly identified as docked on PS1400s.

The docked speakers are toed in. The PC600 is centered between them, and it's on a stand that brings the 906TI drivers about level with the 908TIs in the PT800s. Obvioulsy the PC600's 904TI and the tweeter are several inches lower than their PT800 conterparts. The third PS1400 is used exclusively for LFE and is in the middle of the side wall.

There's a table/trap on the side wall at about the same location as the opening on the angled wall. There's also a bass trap in the "hot" corner in front.

The window and the two sliding glass doors are challenging, both for light and sound. They have darkening and dampening covers when the room is in serious use. Otherwise, they're left open for light and access to the front balcony and the rear deck. My African violets love the indirect sun, and they also serve to break up the liveliness of the back wall. There are 24 large violets back there from the floor to the six feet level.

The left rear surround has to be a bit out of place because of the location of the sliding door. As a result it's a little too much in the corner, but better in the corner than in my skull if I come inside in a hurry. :hyp: Ouch!

I think I mentioned earlier that the PT800 and PC600 come with wall mounting hardware included. Optional brackets allow them to be corner mounted. I've been tempted to try that at least with the rear surrounds.

Titanium Dome
01-02-2005, 12:54 PM
:nutz: Woo-hoo! And you thought this thread was dead! :nutz:

Thanks to Giskard's request, I have another post with minutiae that only an engineer might love. Here's a PDF of the grille dimensions for the Performance Series.

Isn't this the most you've ever known about a speaker you've never seen, let alone heard? :yes: :no: :spin: :barf:

Happy New Year!

:cheers:

4313B
01-02-2005, 01:23 PM
Hey thanks! It appears the grilles might just work with a JBL fifteen then... :D

mikebake
03-01-2005, 02:25 PM
:nutz: Woo-hoo! And you thought this thread was dead! :nutz:

Thanks to Giskard's request, I have another post with minutiae that only an engineer might love. Here's a PDF of the grille dimensions for the Performance Series.

Isn't this the most you've ever known about a speaker you've never seen, let alone heard? :yes: :no: :spin: :barf:

Happy New Year!

:cheers:

It's not dead, it just smells funny!
My buddy found some PT800's and a 600 through a dealer. We bought 'em today, so I should have a pair of PT800's to listen to after I get back from vacation. Would like to find a matching cherry center, now.
He'll jump from some Cambridge Sound HT system to PT800/600 fronts/center! HA!

Titanium Dome
03-01-2005, 03:57 PM
Wow! Someone's been busy. :bouncy:

mikebake
03-01-2005, 04:09 PM
Okay, I'm still confused. Is there a base provided for when you are not docking the PT800? I mean, other than the wall/corner mount?

These were found in a similar manner to yours, at a similar savings.:)
I would have bought more if they had had them.

Titanium Dome
03-01-2005, 05:35 PM
The base, such as it is, is the heavy metal plate attached to the bottom of the speaker. This basically requires you to position them with the 8" driver at the bottom, though there are some placements where it's conceivable that placing the speakers upside down would make sense.

Also, I've noticed that one should be careful when placing the metal base on finished surfaces, as the metal can cause scratches. I put some medium weight felt under two of mine that sit on finished wood surfaces.

Because the metal plate has theaded holes in it, I've toyed with the idea of cutting, routing, and finishing some wooden bases and attaching them to the bottom of the PT800s with recessed screws. Alas, I'm better at thinking than doing, so for now they sit on felt.

mikebake
03-01-2005, 06:42 PM
So they just sit flat on the bottom of the cabinet? I'm thinking of something to get them up off the floor.................guess I'll have to work on it. Anyway, you said I've been busy? Have you ever re-read your posts on these? LIke I WOULDN'T want them? Hell, you've been a one-man ad campaign.

Titanium Dome
03-01-2005, 10:07 PM
So they just sit flat on the bottom of the cabinet? I'm thinking of something to get them up off the floor.................guess I'll have to work on it.

I've got the front L&R PT800s docked on two of the PS1400s, but the PC600 center is on a short speaker stand under my screen. The sides are on speaker stands as well, with the rears resting on wooden shelves. The PT800s are ear height in front and slightly higher on the sides and rear, while the PC600 drivers are maybe a foot lower due to the position of the screen.

If I owned this place, I'm certain I'd wall mount everything but the PS1400s and make the best of acoutstical treatments to really dial them in.


Anyway, you said I've been busy? Have you ever re-read your posts on these? LIke I WOULDN'T want them? Hell, you've been a one-man ad campaign.

You know what they say: "There's no accounting for taste." I might be more like a one-man sonic train wreck. Remember, I'm the same guy who likes L7s, L5s, SVA1800s, and L100s among his JBLs. Except for the L100s which get talked about a lot (both + and -), you don't see many other people even admitting that they ever heard any of 'em, let alone own 'em. :uhmmmm:

So I hope the Performance Series doesn't become another casualty of the "Heritage Wars," where if it's not from the Great Years it can't be great. My feeling is that some terrific products get overlooked this way, and many of these speakers excel in ways the vintage gear cannot.

Okay, better duck now. :thnkfast: Ouch! Try again. :duck:

4313B
03-02-2005, 06:47 AM
So I hope the Performance Series doesn't become another casualty of the "Heritage Wars," where if it's not from the Great Years it can't be great. My feeling is that some terrific products get overlooked this way, and many of these speakers excel in ways the vintage gear cannot.Perhaps one of the problems with the Performance Series with respect to this forum is that they don't employ any horns/compression drivers, and they don't suck up huge amounts of real estate. Another real negative is that women actually like the way they look, i.e. they aren't ugly. :rotfl:

You might be right that some terrific products are being overlooked, especially by those who think JBL went to hell right after production of the < insert favorite model here > was cancelled. Oh well! Those in the know know that JBL is continually struggling to bring the best of breed products to market.

mikebake
03-02-2005, 07:13 AM
I may end up wall mounting the 800's on the front wall. It's concrete block.

Earl K
03-02-2005, 07:35 AM
Hmmmm, I'm really confused by your recent postings . :blink:

Mike, I thought you had already procured a single PC600 from a recent eBay auction.

- and your buddy found (&) bought a pair of PT800s & a PC600, though you mentioned "we" bought .

- So,, who took possesion of this find ? ( You or your buddy ? )


He'll jump from some Cambridge Sound HT system to PT800/600 fronts/center! HA
- How is it that your buddy is jumping to the PT800/600 setup if you took possesion of the find ?


Would like to find a matching cherry center, now.

- These PC600 and PT800(s) found by your buddy didn't match ?

:blink:

mikebake
03-02-2005, 09:13 AM
Sorry for the confusion; yes, I bought a black ash center on ebay. I was planning on the black ash for the future PT800 purchase.
My co-worker/buddy asked me a week ago what to do to upgrade his HT sound. I explained the Perf. Series. He got excited.
He found a JBL retailer with 4 PT800's and one center, all in cherry. He bought the cherry center and two cherry PT800's, I bought the other two cherry PT800's.
If they had had more, I would have bought two more 800's and a cherry center to match, and used the black one in the rear of a 6.1 setup. Make sense?
These were quite a buy, so there wasn't much delay in jumping on them.


Hmmmm, I'm really confused by yout recent postings . :blink:

Mike, I thought you had already procured a single PC600 from a recent eBay auction.

- and your buddy found (&) bought a pair of PT800s & a PC600, though you mentioned "we" bought .

- So,, who took possesion of this find ? ( You or your buddy ? )


- How is it that your buddy is jumping to the PT800/600 setup if you took possesion of the find ?



- These PC600 and PT800(s) found by your buddy didn't match ?

:blink:

Earl K
03-02-2005, 09:52 AM
Okey-Dohkey ! Thanks for clearing the haze !

So it's even better / a win-win situation for both you and your buddy .

I'll be awaiting your reaction/opinion once it's all dialed in . When do we get to hear your buddies reactions ?

:cheers:

4313B
03-02-2005, 10:00 AM
These were quite a buy, so there wasn't much delay in jumping on them.As were your proposed subs! Can't beat those, except with a stick maybe. So now we are looking at a Cherry finish on the subs?

mikebake
03-02-2005, 10:20 AM
As were your proposed subs! Can't beat those, except with a stick maybe. So now we are looking at a Cherry finish on the subs?

Well, umm, actually, hell yes.:)

mikebake
03-02-2005, 10:26 AM
Perhaps one of the problems with the Performance Series with respect to this forum is that they don't employ any horns/compression drivers, and they don't suck up huge amounts of real estate.

I am/have been, of course, a big horn/comp driver fan, so its charting new/old territory to go back to a DR.
However, I haven't really paid attention/listened to anything modern for some time. There were some DR's at MAF I listened to; the Omega speakers in particular seemed like a decent unit for the dough, but really, this is going to be an eye opener/interesting for me. Now I have a new home in mind for the (future) 4430's; the living room.......possibly in the loft, firing down into the living room. This might actually sound pretty good.

mikebake
03-02-2005, 10:35 AM
Okey-Dohkey ! Thanks for clearing the haze !

So it's even better / a win-win situation for both you and your buddy .

I'll be awaiting your reaction/opinion once it's all dialed in . When do we get to hear your buddies reactions ?

:cheers:
Dialed in could take awhile. The room is smallish, which doesn't seem like a problem with these so much, but I've got some sorting through to do.
Giskards post above refers to a pair of sub1500 cab's he is working on for me. I'll need them before being able to get the system rolling, as I have sold/given away all my subs now.
Also, my current Yamaha 5.1 receiver is not up to snuff for this gear. I'm toying with a new receiver, or a processor, since I have some decent amps already.
As for the buddy, he has no frame of reference other than his current toy speakers, so it'll be interesting. He needs a real sub(s), too.

Titanium Dome
03-02-2005, 11:05 AM
Dialed in could take awhile. The room is smallish, which doesn't seem like a problem with these so much, but I've got some sorting through to do..

Yes, you'll find it does take a little time to do this, but the speakers are easy enough to move around (when they're not docked, of course). They will easily take 200W and you'll wonder if you should give them more, even in a smallish room.

My room is approximately 24' in depth, and I sometimes wonder what "doubling up" on speakers and amps would do, despite my GF's opinion that it's already too loud most of the time. Honestly, I've never gone to 0dB on my pre/pro's volume control, so who knows. The amps and speakers seem like they're operating at half effort, and it's really, really loud so I chicken out. But some day...:bomb:

These things have so much midrange and HF power! and the subs are pretty awesome, too, but I see you might have a better solution (below).



Giskards post above refers to a pair of sub1500 cab's he is working on for me. I'll need them before being able to get the system rolling, as I have sold/given away all my subs now.
Also, my current Yamaha 5.1 receiver is not up to snuff for this gear. I'm toying with a new receiver, or a processor, since I have some decent amps already.

Since there appears to be no smilie for this, I'll just print it.

:envy:

I want to hear those sub1500s in this set up. Lima isn't too far from Maumee, so when I come to see my Mom in the late spring, maybe I can drive down for a listen? If you don't have them yet, maybe I can help Giskard load up his Freightliner and bring them down to help you install them?

No smilie for this either:
:begging:

4313B
03-02-2005, 11:05 AM
Is your buddy near you? I have a pair of 121A subs that I sure would like to have someone try with the PT800's... Honestly though, I'd rather you try them since I know you wouldn't blow them up. :p

mikebake
03-02-2005, 01:04 PM
Yes, he is near me. I have worked with him for 20 years. Pretty conservative guy. Non-smoke, non-drink, h.s. basketball coach at the local Christian school..............
He won't blow them up, not that kinda guy. But anyway, I'd guarantee them...........
Maybe you oughta pick up the 800's/600 at the same time and take them up north for a visit.

mikebake
03-02-2005, 04:59 PM
These things have so much midrange and HF power! and the subs are pretty awesome, too, but I see you might have a better solution (below).

Since there appears to be no smilie for this, I'll just print it.

:envy:

I want to hear those sub1500s in this set up. Lima isn't too far from Maumee, so when I come to see my Mom in the late spring, maybe I can drive down for a listen? If you don't have them yet, maybe I can help Giskard load up his Freightliner and bring them down to help you install them?

No smilie for this either:
:begging:
I think the combo of PT800 and sub1500 could be nice, but Giskard has pointed out the potential for a mismatch, with the subs overpowering the mains.
Anyway, do you use these any/some in 2 channel mode?
You are welcome to come down, provided I have it ready to roll, but again, all my available rooms are small, and don't generally do a good system justice. Unfortunately.
I am planning a remodel to address some of that, but it is a ways down the road.
I could temporarily take over the living room, but that would only lend itself to 2 channel, as the big screen and gear are in the basement.

Titanium Dome
03-02-2005, 07:36 PM
I think the combo of PT800 and sub1500 could be nice, but Giskard has pointed out the potential for a mismatch, with the subs overpowering the mains.
Anyway, do you use these any/some in 2 channel mode?

The primary reason I have them docked in front is to get maximum musical pleasure out of them. If HT were the top priority, I'd likely separate them and mount the PT800s on the wall. That'd also give me more flexibility with sub placement.

When used for two channel music, I'm basically driving a bi-amped (or is it passively bi-amped? or active b-wiring? or who gives a sh*t?) speaker pair, since the PS1400 is running its own 400W amp and the PT800 is being driven by a dedicated 215W external amp.

The crossover point between the two is actually contolled by the pre/pro in my case, before the signal gets to the amps.

This makes for a heady combination: musicality, presence, and power. It sounds different than your classic speakers for sure, and after a while you'll decide if you like it or not. IMO, it's quite an improvement.

Classic speakers sound "heavy" and "pushy" to me in comparison, though that's the sound I want when I get in a Machine Head kind of mood. What do those words mean? Hell if I know exactly; those are just my impressions when I listen. Maybe I mean the classic speakers sound, well, old. But, hey, I'm going on 54, and I'm still beautiful, so I'm not knocking them, just making a subjective judgment.



I am planning a remodel to address some of that, but it is a ways down the road.
I could temporarily take over the living room, but that would only lend itself to 2 channel, as the big screen and gear are in the basement.

I worked for a number of years in painting, wall papering, and drywall as an undergraduate student with a wife and three kids. Then we bought a farm in MI with an 1854 vintage brick house on it, so I knocked down walls, built walls, installed electricity, plumbing, heat, and cables, replaced windows, etc. for the next 20 years. I've still got a big hammer and a monster wrecker bar. Shall I bring them? :bouncy:

I love to knock things down. :bouncy:

mikebake
03-02-2005, 08:01 PM
I'm good at knocking down; I suck at reassembly.

mikebake
03-02-2005, 08:05 PM
As were your proposed subs! Can't beat those, except with a stick maybe. So now we are looking at a Cherry finish on the subs?
yeah, it is scary to think of how much I WON'T have invested in this rig. Pretty decent on the value scale. That is something that is possible in audio, which is not as possible in most other endeavors, IMO.

MJC
03-04-2005, 08:34 PM
Dialed in could take awhile. The room is smallish, which doesn't seem like a problem with these so much, but I've got some sorting through to do.
Giskards post above refers to a pair of sub1500 cab's he is working on for me. I'll need them before being able to get the system rolling, as I have sold/given away all my subs now.
Also, my current Yamaha 5.1 receiver is not up to snuff for this gear. I'm toying with a new receiver, or a processor, since I have some decent amps already.
As for the buddy, he has no frame of reference other than his current toy speakers, so it'll be interesting. He needs a real sub(s), too.

Having recently purchased a HK 635 receiver, I would suggest it for your system. The EZ Set EQ system works great with the sub1500 and really dials in my L212s. So I would think it would work really well for your system.

mikebake
03-11-2005, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the advice.
Having recently purchased a HK 635 receiver, I would suggest it for your system. The EZ Set EQ system works great with the sub1500 and really dials in my L212s. So I would think it would work really well for your system.

mikebake
03-18-2005, 07:32 AM
PT800's arrived while I was on vacation; my buddy that found the deal took the unopened pair and the center. The floor models are mine. Missing metal plate on the bottoms, some chipping/damage on the edges/corners, grill fabric pulled away from frames (just like on the PC600 I got). Speakers are smaller than I somehow imagined them, and relatively light, thanks in part to neo magnets.

Oh well. They play. They didn't blow the 8 inch while demoing, at least.
Had to hook them up in the HT so the kids could watch "The Incredibles" DVD. Hooked up to the Yamaha low-middle line receiver. Ooops, no subs!!!!!! Gave away all my old powered subs to friends, sold 2245's and cabs, etc. etc.
What to do?
Lessee, Giskard is working on the future sub1500 cabs, and finishing up the 2235 recones that will go in the 4430's.
What the hell, I'll drop a sub1500 in the 4430's so at least the LF can go somewhere.
USe mounting kit, run speaker wire out through port, 10 minute project, kids are waiting in chairs with popcorn...................
NOT WORKING! sub1500 NOT WORKING!!! ARRRGGGHHHH!! Uninstall, speaker wire is pulled out of terminal, strip, reinsert, start movie. Whoa, lots of bass, (and of course in a box tuned for low 40's), too much bass, too much bass. Reduce LF Dolby Digital setting by 8db, add 2nd sub1500 to other 4430, watch movie. Whoa. Too much bass. Fun, but too much.
Lessee, first time listening to both PT800's and sub1500's, in one shot.
Once the sub1500's are in the right box and (hopefully) level matched, I'll weigh in on the PT800's.
Came down the next day when everyone was gone, listened to Hammond B3 in stereo mode, no bass level control in stereo mode. PT800's sound good. Whoa, too much pedal bass..........
PT800's are on top of 4430s, and sliding around from the bass vibrations. Gotta get the subs done right and set up a really good 2 channel setup and see how she goes. Probably should post a photo of 4430's and PT800's together when complete. Friday, day off, time for more music!

Titanium Dome
03-18-2005, 09:52 AM
I'll have to weigh in here, and, in the process, I'll be calling Giskard out to reveal some more of the "secrets" he's keeping about the Performance Series. :wave: Bonjour, Giskard.

As I've stated here (or in another thread or in another forum or in a dream in my brain), the Performance Series stack (PT800 + PS1400) is a direct descendent of the L212, L250, 250Ti line. IMO it has better drivers, a more functional baffle, and greater flexibility than any of those earlier iterations. The flexibility I'm touting, of course, is the ability to separate the modules and place them where you need/want them. The only way to do that with a 250Ti would be to use a chain saw. :eek:

But together or separate, I really think the PT800 and PS1400 must be considered two parts of the same speaker. In that regard, when you've only got the top piece, you've got 3/4 of the drivers and 1/3 of the cabinet volume that was intended. So in thinking about pairing PT800s to a "sub" I believe it's helpful to think of the "sub" as the woofer or LF driver of the Performance Series stack, just like the LE14H-x is the woofer of the 250Ti. It's an extension of the response curve of the other three drivers.

This may not materially affect the outcome of whatever you do to in terms of getting a "sub" for the PT800s, but I really think it's important to consider these units in this "whole system" approach; otherwise, thinking about it as the traditional sub/satellite set up might sell it short.

I acknowledge some of what I'm saying flies in the face of JBL's marketing approach for these speakers. My observations are based on comments I've read from the designer and on my own experience. At least that's my spin on it. :spin:

Titanium Dome
03-18-2005, 10:09 AM
Oh yeah, while I'm on the soap box let me say this. The Performance Series stack is by design a two amplifier system, one of which is supplied by JBL in the PS1400 enclosure. You supply the other amp. This makes the stack either a passively bi-amped or activley bi-wired system--I've long since given up trying to figure out which. :dont-know:

Also, here's the thread where my PhotoShop magic turns the "missing link" between the 250Ti and the Performance Series stack, the "XPL250," into a two module system. See post #5, and ask youself why I never made a living doing this kind of photo doctoring for the criminal underworld. ;)

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4735&highlight=performance+series

4313B
03-18-2005, 10:58 AM
"I'll be calling Giskard out to reveal some more of the "secrets" he's keeping about the Performance Series."

They wouldn't be secrets then would they. I think everyone should own the set. Really. Seriously. No, I'm not kidding.

"As I've stated here (or in another thread or in another forum or in a dream in my brain), the Performance Series stack (PT800 + PS1400) is a direct descendent of the L212, L250, 250Ti line."

Yep, the same gentleman had a major hand in every one of those models you mention. Isn't he awesome!? It's been a long, long time since the 4315 and L212... it seems like only yesterday, until I start counting all the model numbers...

"Also, here's the thread where my PhotoShop magic turns the "missing link" between the 250Ti and the Performance Series stack, the "XPL250," into a two module system. See post #5, and ask youself why I never made a living doing this kind of photo doctoring for the criminal underworld."

Well you've just leaked the basic design of my XPL250's..... thanks for the 32-bit color visual. :p

mikebake
03-18-2005, 03:03 PM
But together or separate, I really think the PT800 and PS1400 must be considered two parts of the same speaker. In that regard, when you've only got the top piece, you've got 3/4 of the drivers and 1/3 of the cabinet volume that was intended. So in thinking about pairing PT800s to a "sub" I believe it's helpful to think of the "sub" as the woofer or LF driver of the Performance Series stack, just like the LE14H-x is the woofer of the 250Ti. It's an extension of the response curve of the other three drivers.

This may not materially affect the outcome of whatever you do to in terms of getting a "sub" for the PT800s, but I really think it's important to consider these units in this "whole system" approach; otherwise, thinking about it as the traditional sub/satellite set up might sell it short.

I see your point. I also think that in my case using sub1500's in a proper box, may yield even better results. I agree that the choice of sub is highly important, and in that respect I assert that the sub1500 walks all over most other choices, including the stock unit.
In my case, I intend to dock the PT800's using the factory hardware, to the sub1500 cabinets, which apparently will look something like larger PS1400's. As for the transient response differences that may exist between the PS1400 and sub1500 drivers, I don't think its much of an issue for me, if it exists. The sub1500 driver has a heavy cone, but I'm not really asking it to go up all that high. And its VLF ability in this arrangement exceeds the PS1400's.

Incidentally, you might be amused to know that Giskard now has my PT800's and PC600 at his house.............I imagine he may tell us his impressions at some time, but obviously he is predisposed to liking this design, knowing its heritage and designer.
He brought me the reconed 2235's and some test boxes for the sub1500's, so it was a good excuse for him to give the Performance series some extended listening.
BTW, Mr. Dome, I do appreciate your touting the series, and all the info and insights. They certainly caused me to steer in that direction. Thanks.:)

mikebake
03-18-2005, 03:36 PM
In further defense of the Performance Series; obviously they intended the sub1500 for the Revel, and the subsequent price tag. Pairing a factory built 1500 with the the PT800 wouldn't make sense. In that respect, the pricing of the Performance Series looks pretty good!

Skoda
03-18-2005, 04:24 PM
Have aby of you ever heard the HT series from JBL and/or compared to the performance?:blah:


By the way nice set up:applaud:

Titanium Dome
03-18-2005, 04:55 PM
Have aby of you ever heard the HT series from JBL and/or compared to the performance?:blah:


By the way nice set up:applaud:

Yes. Quite a different sound, but one that I like very much. And I dig the Symmetrical Vertcal Array, which I believe we see echoed in the Project May loudspeaker. For all intents and purposes, the HT Series is what's left of the SVA Series, and if you compared an SVA1500 to the HT4V and an SVA Center to the HT4H, you'd see the family resemblence. What's missing are the SVA1600, SVA1800, and SVA1800 models, all discontinued.

The horn-based, dual woofer design is a killer for HT and it pumps out the volume for rock'n'roll, but it falls short of the Performance Series as a music system. JBL solved the problem of the SVA1500 not having any low end by putting the HTPS 400 12" sub in the line with its 1000W amp.

I've got a pair of SVA1800s, and I wouldn't give 'em up, but the Performance Series is in my opinion a far superior product. That's why I'm an "inverted dome metalhead" and not an SVA addict. ;)

4313B
03-18-2005, 06:13 PM
Mike, these are really good... I had to put the grilles back on because how they look and how they sound don't jive. ;)

G.T. was right. Imagine that! :rotfl:


But together or separate, I really think the PT800 and PS1400 must be considered two parts of the same speaker.One of my requirements for the PT800's is that they operate with other JBL VLF systems as did the L212 panels.

mikebake
03-18-2005, 08:43 PM
"how they look and how they sound don't jive"


Now, you know you have just defined a phrase with respect to them that I will never be able to forget when listening to them!! Interesting idea, that.


Now I will have to ponder the what/wherefore/why..................

BTW, I must have intuited that, because I put them on from the get-go; didn't want to be staring at the metal, just listening to the tunes!

Item 14-B; I have ALWAYS had this BIG thing about people judging speakers by their sound and NOT being able to see them. I did a blind listening thing at MAF, trying to get to the point that alot of the high-end stuff was crap in comparison to some solid stuff, and that if snooty audiophiles didn't see what they were listening to, besides being very uncomfortable with the prospect, the speakers they would pick as sounding best might really shock them.

Dr. Bruce Edgar quote " I always say, people see what they hear, and hear what they see".

We agree.

mikebake
03-18-2005, 09:03 PM
BTW, what kind of material did you listen to on them, so far?

4313B
03-18-2005, 09:14 PM
"didn't want to be staring at the metal"

Yep, as pretty as they are, they are a distraction. There's a whole lotta metal staring back at you. :p

These are really good little loudspeakers. I'd definitely consider trying out charge-coupled filters with these components some day.

mikebake
03-18-2005, 09:19 PM
What are you using for LF? And perhaps you might describe them vs. 4430's?

4313B
03-18-2005, 09:29 PM
BTW, what kind of material did you listen to on them, so far?
Steely Dan
John Klemmer
Joni Mitchell
Carol King
Checkfield
Lee Ritenour
The Cardigans
The Cars
Ronnie Jordan
The Blackbyrds
Michael Jackson
Spyro Gyra
Thom Rotella
Diane Schuur
Sam Riney
Big Head Todd and the Monsters
Vince Guaraldi
Russ Freeman
Larry Carlton
Men at Work
The Police
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Swing Out Sister
Sade

Nothing super special.


What are you using for LF? And perhaps you might describe them vs. 4430's?LE14H-1's for VLF right now. LE14H-1's turned off half the time so I can compare the 8-inch with the old 112H/2108H. Different than the 4430's. Have you got the 4430's up and running? One should probably own a pair of 4430's regardless of whether or not they own the Performance Series. :p At some point you might want to make a choice but not for awhile I wouldn't think.

mikebake
03-18-2005, 09:31 PM
More questions; any idea of max SPL for the 800's? Also, comparison to XPL250?

4313B
03-18-2005, 09:38 PM
I don't have my XPL250 networks finished. I'm working on two charge-coupled 250Ti and four 4435 networks right now.

No idea on max SPL. I haven't really romped on them yet.

Titanium Dome
03-18-2005, 09:52 PM
Mike, these are really good... I had to put the grilles back on because how they look and how they sound don't jive. ;)

They are so pretty that expectations are very high, IF you're an inverted dome metalhead like me. If you ever heard a Revel Ultima Salon then saw the PT800 with the 4" Titanium pistonic drive transducer, you'd have VERY high hopes. Then to have 6" and 8" Ti alloy drivers, too: irresistible! Otherwise, yes, I guess you "paper or plastic" guys need to look away.


G.T. was right. Imagine that! :rotfl:

As if you had any doubts... :coolness:


One of my requirements for the PT800's is that they operate with other JBL VLF systems as did the L212 panels.

Please expand on this if you don't mind. Thanks.

Skoda
03-18-2005, 09:57 PM
what sound diffrences did you notice from the SVA series to the performence series?

4313B
03-18-2005, 10:02 PM
I guess you "paper or plastic" guys need to look away.That wasn't exactly my point. I think Mike got the idea. There is no denying these transducers look very nice. They look better in person than in any photo I've seen.


As if you had any doubts... :coolness:Yep, always. We don't share a pair of ears. I obviously can't elaborate on a public forum.

Please expand on this if you don't mind. Thanks.I don't like to be locked in to any single sub solution. The PT800's would need to work with a variety of sub solutions.

mikebake
03-19-2005, 05:57 AM
No idea on max SPL. I haven't really romped on them yet.
I was thinking in terms of any written data.:)

4313B
03-19-2005, 06:24 AM
That would be 115 dB maximum peak (not sustained). Probably figure 6 dB below that for continuous SPL. The L212 was 113 dB and I can tell you right off the bat the Performance Series has lower power compression.

4313B
03-19-2005, 06:38 AM
L212 crossover points 800 Hz, 3 kHz

PT800 crossover points 650 Hz, 3.2 kHz

mikebake
03-19-2005, 06:58 AM
That would be 115 dB maximum peak (not sustained). Probably figure 6 dB below that for continuous SPL. The L212 was 113 dB and I can tell you right off the bat the Performance Series has lower power compression.

That is kinda what I was trying to get at, was dynamic range and power compression. Being a fan of big horn loaded systems will make this interesting. Don't they measure peak at a given freq., or is it kind of an average?

4313B
03-19-2005, 07:11 AM
It's averaged.

These don't have the dynamic range of a big horn system. That wasn't part of the design specification. :rotfl:

There's a time for horns and there's a time for direct radiators. I'm sure plenty of people would beg to differ one way or another.

BTW, for those who care about such things, WAF here is very high.

mikebake
03-19-2005, 07:23 AM
It's averaged.

These don't have the dynamic range of a big horn system. That wasn't part of the design specification. :rotfl:

There's a time for horns and there's a time for direct radiators. I'm sure plenty of people would beg to differ one way or another.

BTW, for those who care about such things, WAF here is very high.

That's why I own both! There is also a time for a giant 5 foot parabolic speaker that that has a pattern of 8 degrees at 100 feet. http://www.meyersound.com/products/industrialseries/sb-1/
I just haven't found out when that time is yet, but I still want a pair. I could beam music into the neighbors backyard party from 500 feet away.

BTW, as for WAF, that helps, as I might actually be allowed to have something upstairs for once.

I'm seriously debating a kind of install with the 4430's in our upcoming remodel, firing down into the living room in an arrangement not too much different than a studio soffitt mounting. We'll see............

Titanium Dome
03-19-2005, 07:43 AM
It's averaged.

These don't have the dynamic range of a big horn system. That wasn't part of the design specification. :rotfl:

There's a time for horns and there's a time for direct radiators. I'm sure plenty of people would beg to differ one way or another.

I agree with you, and so apparently does JBL. Looking at the top of the line Synthesis gear we find speakers that are EQed externally and controlled by the JBL (Lexicon, really) pre/pro. Depending on the setting, music or cinema, some drivers in an enclosure are on and others are off. You get horns in cinema modes, but they're silenced and replaced by direct radiators with different EQ in music modes.

They're big, though, and if you tried to drop them in your living room, the WAF/GAF would be zero or more likely a negative number. :bomb:

In the right environment (if you've got the cash and a dedicated room), they're unbelievable.


BTW, for those who care about such things, WAF here is very high.

For me, it's GAF, but you're right. I'm pretty sure this was a part of the design specification (improving visual appeal, at least). My GF very much likes the look, especially the stack. "It looks like it's floating." :rolleyes:

mikebake
03-19-2005, 08:07 AM
They're big, though, and if you tried to drop them in your living room, the WAF/GAF would be zero or more likely a negative number. :bomb:



Probably as close an attempt at getting a fully horn loaded system to have WAF as could be expected.

Earl K
03-19-2005, 08:37 AM
WAF ? :rotfl:

- With all deference to the good Dr. E.

- The above is a "look" of dualing ball lobbers that only a "pumped-up" Maguire could truly appreciate .

- Hey , & I love round horns .

- Apologies "in advance" to those who I have offended . ;)

mikebake
03-19-2005, 08:43 AM
yer helping me make my point!!!:D How do you "hide" an all-horn system??! One key would be to build it into the house, which several have done. Termination is behind some large grill cloth on the wall, etc.
WAF ? :rotfl:

- With all deference to the good Dr. E.

- The above is a "look" of dualing ball lobbers that only a "pumped-up" Maguire could truly appreciate .

- Hey , & I love round horns .

- Apologies "in advance" to those who I have offended . ;)

Earl K
03-19-2005, 08:51 AM
yer helping me make my point!!!

- Glad to help ! ;)

- I'd like to see those gleaming Ti domes directly marketed at the SR guys . They (we) know what those shiny domes are all about .

- Ya might even catch a few of the older glam-rock guys trying to preen themselves in front of those mini-parabolics . ( It's an image )

:D

mikebake
03-19-2005, 10:03 AM
Hey, let's keep it up! Pretty soon maybe we'll catch the sub1500 and quick&dirty 4430 threads for posts!:D

BTW, I love this spec from the parabolic speaker mentioned above;

Maximum SPL
...110 dB @ 100 meters

Earl K
03-19-2005, 10:48 AM
Hey, let's keep it up! Pretty soon maybe we'll catch the sub1500 and quick&dirty 4430 threads for posts!

Okay,

Ya know , I never did buy any of those sub1500(s) - my warehouse is full of 18s, 15s, 10s, / I just don't need any more of that sort of LF stuff ( okay VLF ).

,,, now OTOH,

- The shiny domes are quite small and elegant , almost like dangling Navajo belt jewelry in front of an SR guy ( JBL needs the "Turquoise Line" with some granite thrown in for effect ) . Plus those nice shiny domes don't eat up much space . They also go along with my newly found appreciation for the 14" woofer .


:D

mikebake
03-19-2005, 11:06 AM
Okay,

Ya know , I never did buy any of those sub1500(s) - my warehouse is full of 18s, 15s, 10s, / I just don't need any more of that sort of LF stuff ( okay VLF ).

,,, now OTOH,

- The shiny domes are quite small and elegant , almost like dangling Navajo jewelry to an SR guy ( JBL needs the "Turquoise Line" with some granite thrown in for effect ) . Plus those domes don't eat up much space . They also go along with my new found appreciation for the 14" woofer .


:D

You should have gotten some sub1500's anyway, just because!
But yes, greyish paper cones are "beautious" in the eyes of many, but hey, we've seen it for years now!

I need to study the Performance drivers some more; I don't know much about them or their design parameters/philosophy yet. There is always kind of an engineering/design story behind the story, relating to performance goals and $, and I would like to know what that was/is with these drivers. Obviously the brains at JBL liked them....................

mikebake
03-19-2005, 11:40 AM
They are so pretty that expectations are very high, IF you're an inverted dome metalhead like me. If you ever heard a Revel Ultima Salon then saw the PT800 with the 4" Titanium pistonic drive transducer, you'd have VERY high hopes. Then to have 6" and 8" Ti alloy drivers, too: irresistible! Otherwise, yes, I guess you "paper or plastic" guys need to look away.

I believe what Giskard meant was that they are really nice to look at, and their sound exceeds that!:)

4313B
03-19-2005, 11:40 AM
"I don't know much about them or their design parameters"

Unfortunately the guy who designed the transducers didn't speak English real well and didn't fill out the usual documentation. :rotfl:

Maybe I'll fire up SoundEasy and run them through if you want. Can't do a whole lot about anechoic responses though.


I believe what Giskard meant was that they are really nice to look at, and their sound exceeds that!:)They are very nice to look at. I don't think photos can do them justice. They look like they would sound real metallic (I think a rag review or two stated the same thing). They do not sound metallic, they sound quite nice. If they sounded like a bunch of metal flapping in the breeze I'd say so.

mikebake
03-19-2005, 11:53 AM
"I don't know much about them or their design parameters"

Unfortunately the guy who designed the transducers didn't speak English real well and didn't fill out the usual documentation. :rotfl:

Maybe I'll fire up SoundEasy and run them through if you want. Can't do a whole lot about anechoic responses though.
Over/underhung? VC diameters? Beyond some of that kinda stuff, I don't really need to know. Listening to them will tell me most of what I need to know.......
I suppose there was a directive to fulfill, and I am curious how these drivers met it. Just curiousity. I like the design stories.
"The classic 15 inch coaxial Blarf was designed to beat the competing VEMega, as well as overcome the previous designs shortcomings. It accomplished this with its deep nuclear gap, 1/2 inch voice coil, and massive 86 lb. Panamanian mahogany motor structure. Power handling was increased to 4000 joules while distortion was reduced 2.8%. Unfortunately at this time, the world supply of the special rubber donut compound was entirely consumed by the 1962 opening of the Gumby factory, hence the few examples of this gem survive only in Disneys vaults, and a pristine pair is rumored to be the personal lavatory speakers in Tom Waits vacation bungalow"
That kind of thing. Helps drive up the ebay prices, too.

Zilch
03-19-2005, 12:19 PM
Any speaker rendering Tom Waits listenable is a keeper. :p

Titanium Dome
03-19-2005, 04:07 PM
I believe what Giskard meant was that they are really nice to look at, and their sound exceeds that!:)

Okay, perhaps I was too far out there. :rolleyes: Sorry, Giskard, if it came across harsh, although I really liked writing the "paper or plastic" thing.

I guess I get so used to defending JBL's newer stuff and Ti in general in places other than LH that I brought the activism here where it's not needed.

mea culpa

Titanium Dome
03-19-2005, 04:30 PM
That would be 115 dB maximum peak (not sustained). Probably figure 6 dB below that for continuous SPL. The L212 was 113 dB and I can tell you right off the bat the Performance Series has lower power compression.

When I get the chance, like when the GF is attending class at night, I like to put my main system in Stereo7 mode, so all six PT800s, three PS1400s, and the single PC600 are pumping. According to the ol' meter, each of the PT800s can hold low 100s (101-103 dB) consistently, and to me they don't sound like they're anyhwere near the edge. When they're all putting out full channel music--WOW!

I'm a BIG fan of dance tracks and groove/trance stuff, so these speakers are fantastic for picking up the nuances of the music, especially at the high end. Yes, I said nuances. :thmbsup:

If you hear the dance tracks pumpin', don't come thumpin' at my door. :D


:dancin: :banana: :dancin: :banana:

(JBL Dog, I'll let you in. Well heck, I'll let all of you in if you ever come by.)

:dj-party: :banana:

4313B
03-19-2005, 04:40 PM
Oh the "paper or plastic" thing definitely appealed to my sense of humor. :p

Anyway, your defense of them is understandable. They are quite defendable. I also understand your position of keeping them a package deal as they were designed. I don't necessarily subscribe to "leaving well enough alone", but I do understand the concept.

Titanium Dome
03-21-2005, 06:16 PM
"I don't know much about them or their design parameters"

Maybe I'll fire up SoundEasy and run them through if you want. Can't do a whole lot about anechoic responses though.


Anything happening in this regard?

Titanium Dome
03-31-2005, 05:00 AM
mikebake, Giskard

Any developments on your initiation to the PT800s? Have you had any thoughts on other uses for the drivers?

For example, Giskard, if I ever got some crapped out L250s for cheap :nutz: , I'd toy around with placing some of these drivers in there just to see...I mean hear what could be done with a Ti complement, an LE14H-3, and some new crossovers.

Yes, I know this doesn't make a lot of sense, but what about any of these experiments really does? :dont-know

4313B
03-31-2005, 06:15 AM
I'm busy with other things right now but hope to try the PT800's with a pair of 12" subs this weekend.

I would definitely think about biasing the filters.

"Have you had any thoughts on other uses for the drivers?"

Not at this point.

analogman
04-07-2005, 01:36 PM
Comparing them to 1977 vintage L212/B212, that were $2k for 3 speakers, that is a good price. The $2k of '77 would be about $10k now, and for that $10k now you get 5 main speakers and 2 subs. And the towers can be had from the Harman online store for just $1050-that's almost a 1/3 off! I only managed to get 1/4 off the price of my original L212/B212.

But alas, I've just recenty completed a 7 channel L212/dual sub1500 system. Which will never be sold, just passed onto my son.http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif
So I saved about $8khttp://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif, though be it for a 27 year old design. But at a later
point in time....


It would take $6,313.53 in 2005 dollars to equal $2,000 1977 dollars.:banghead:

Analogman

Titanium Dome
04-25-2005, 10:23 PM
Here are a couple of auctions with BINs that are lower than the harmanaudio.com refurb prices.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=64612&item=5770099012&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61381&item=5770098967&rd=1

mikebake
04-26-2005, 11:29 AM
Buddy has PT800 fronts, can't afford them for rears, wants to know what "we" would recommend for a good rear to match................?:)

Titanium Dome
04-26-2005, 11:54 AM
Buddy has PT800 fronts, can't afford them for rears, wants to know what "we" would recommend for a good rear to match................?:)

I'd recommend he sell you his PT800s and get something else. :spin:

4313B
04-26-2005, 11:56 AM
I'd recommend he sell you his PT800s and get something else. :spin:Yep.

mikebake
04-26-2005, 12:16 PM
He read that and got a kick out of it!
I'd recommend he sell you his PT800s and get something else. :spin:

Titanium Dome
04-26-2005, 02:01 PM
Honestly Mike, I'm at a loss to recommend something. You can find the EOS Waveguide tweeter in other products, but I don't know how you'll match that 104TI midrange, or the 108TI woofer for that matter. The 4" midrange is the key, though. I don't even know what to compare it to.

For around $400 you could get the three drivers and the crossover and maybe build your own enclosures? Or maybe just the tweeter and mid, plus a custom crossover for less than $300? There might even be some old cabs out there that would take the 4" driver and the tweeter, though some mods for the tweeter housing would be needed.

Maybe cut the tops off Giskard's XPL250 towers and use those to house the drivers?

:dont-know:

4313B
04-26-2005, 02:03 PM
Seriously Mike, do it right or blow it off.

4313B
04-26-2005, 02:05 PM
Go with all PT800's or forget it.

Titanium Dome
04-26-2005, 02:13 PM
Go with all PT800's or forget it.

Truth is a harsh mistress.


:tribe:

mikebake
04-26-2005, 04:28 PM
My buddy found another buy on PT800's and PS1400's. Anyone interested?

Titanium Dome
04-26-2005, 04:33 PM
My buddy found another buy on PT800's and PS1400's. Anyone interested?

Can you "quantify" a buy? Better do it in a PM.

mikebake
04-26-2005, 06:26 PM
Anyone interested can PM me.

MJC
04-27-2005, 06:27 PM
Go with all PT800's or forget it.

Yep, for HT have all the speakers the same model.

mikebake
04-27-2005, 07:48 PM
Yep, for HT have all the speakers the same model.
I have done otherwise with quite good results...................

MJC
04-29-2005, 03:30 PM
I have done otherwise with quite good results...................


I've heard quite a few HT setups that used different speakers for surrounds from the front, and they sounded pretty good. But I think you get better overall performance, as when the action moves from front to back with identical speakers, and definately for DVD-audio/SACD.

JBLnsince1959
05-10-2005, 03:13 PM
Yes, it's obvious isn't it? Sorry to be such an evangelist about it, but I think three things are at work here:
1) I got tired of nonJBL people raggin' on me for having "nonaudiophile" equipment whenever I mentioned any of my JBLs, so it moved me into advocacy mode;
2) Some JBL friends love the old stuff but tend to pooh pooh the new; and
3) I was so surprised and delighted with these speakers that it set off a friggin' journey of epic proportions to actually find someplace to buy them, so maybe I have a Homer complex. :homer: Well, I meant the other Homer, you know the writer of the Iliad and Odyssey.

So I take my grandpa's advice: "Why do anything half-assed when you can do everything over the top?" :banana:

Dome:

answering from the "4343 or 250ti" thread, I didn't want to run it to far "off Topic" so I moved to here.

actually I'm glad you have discussed the performance series and championed them as much as you do. It so hard to hear the "Good" new stuff as JBL really makes it hard for dealers to carry the stuff. It's because of this thread ( and others) that I'm thinking seriously of getting some. Anyway, hope my being funny doesn't stop you from talking about these the way you have. You never know. There might be two of us tooting about these things.

I have one question tho (from anyone who has heard these), I know these sound very good and "realistic". Can anyone describe how they sound maybe compared to other ( cone)speakers. Maybe a little more info than "they sound very nice" and NOT like sterophile -" As soon as I started listening to these speakers, I was tansported to another dimension in the upper etheric realms and saw the face of God. Of course the 10 million dollar price tag had no affect on my listening" :p

you and Giskard are the only two people I know who have listen alot to them. Anyway, thanks for talking about them so much.

jblnut
05-10-2005, 05:50 PM
I heard a complete system (Synthesis) at a friend's house in LA in late October. I wish I could give you a more wordy review, but basically what you've heard so far is true - they sound great. Super clear, not harsh or fatiguing, very smooth overall, etc. They are really a nice sounding speaker and are absolutely the best I've heard yet in a home 5.1 config. I wouldn't trade my 250ti's for 2 of them, although it would be a lot of fun to hear both side-by-side. Were I to be in the market for a $10k 5.1 system though , these would be right at the top of the list (along with a bunch of used Yamaha pro amps to power them :) ).


I can almost guarantee that you won't be disappointed unless your expectations are unrealistic...

jblnut

JBLnsince1959
05-10-2005, 07:39 PM
Thanks jblnut, that's kind of what I was looking for.....:thmbsup:


with a bunch of used Yamaha pro amps to power them :) ).
jblnut

I know what you mean... :D

mikebake
05-12-2005, 09:06 PM
Helped my buddy unpack/hook up his PS1400's he got today; great stuff. Nice hook up, better overall appearance than I imagined;went to dinner while he rushed out for some additional connects etc....dealt with his 18 month old and my 4 year old while configuring the stuff....... dialed it all in a bit.........lucky bastard, he doesn't know shit, but he's got a nice room for audio. Quite nice. Things sounded good right off. Okay, I haven't heard the 1400/800 together: had fun setting the sub and receiver right, pop in his ideas for sample DVD's.............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, shit, this sounds smoooothhh. We got loud, but, urrrrrrrr, MAN, it just keeps sounding so good. Okay, I knew the 800's were good.............hey, beat the combo for anywhere near the price......and it LOOKS so good. This stuff is such a bargain. That's the point. Great value. Very non-fatiguing kinda sound........power when needed, resolution.......

Titanium Dome
05-12-2005, 09:33 PM
.............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, shit, this sounds smoooothhh. We got loud, but, urrrrrrrr, MAN, it just keeps sounding so good. Okay, I knew the 800's were good.............hey, beat the combo for anywhere near the price......and it LOOKS so good. This stuff is such a bargain. That's the point. Great value. Very non-fatiguing kinda sound........power when needed, resolution.......

Careful, you might become an inverted dome metalhead. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
05-12-2005, 09:40 PM
How did the back speakers work for Bob? Did they match up good enough? It was a shot in the dark.....

JBLnsince1959
05-13-2005, 07:47 AM
Mikebake:

No need to comment on the back speakers as he told me they were'nt hooked up yet. Here's what he wrote me this morning:

"Well I'm still floating from the incredible sound and haven't heard anything
so clear and pure in my life. No need to go to any movie theatres now."

Sounds like he's happy. :D

JuniorJBL
05-13-2005, 10:56 AM
Careful, you might become an inverted dome metalhead. :yes:

Hey Dome
Maybe you should check this out:barf:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5844

This could be the answer to the fourm members Insanity problems:blink:

Titanium Dome
05-13-2005, 02:51 PM
Hey Dome
Maybe you should check this out:barf:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5844

This could be the answer to the fourm members Insanity problems:blink:


Those li'l bastards are like bug's eyes. Whenever I see a bunch of those lying around someone's "home theater" I think of cockroaches and their multi-lensed eyes, which still can't perceive red light. Sorta like Bose cubes can't produce highs or lows. :rotfl:

http://yucky.kids.discovery.com/noflash/roaches/pg000331.html

Titanium Dome
05-13-2005, 02:53 PM
Oh right, back on thread, I'd much prefer to be an inverted dome metalhead than a boseroach.

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 08:34 AM
Well, what can I say? Dome you talked me into it, I tried my best to resist.. BUT...... Just ordered 2 PS1400's and 2 PT800's yesterday from the tip I got from MikeBake's friend :D . They should be here next week around Wed. or Thurs. ( May 25th and 26th I believe). I ordered the black ones. I almost didn't do this as now I have some very real and serious issues with space ( 10Lb's of SH*T in a five Lb bag) and something MUST go. Lady was very "COLD" to me last night :shock: :biting: - tried to ease the tension with, they'll look great and I'll sell EVERYTHING I'm not using AND the 4430's :banghead: . ( she's never been a fan of those) Guess I needed a fire under my butt to sell off what I'm not using or the extra stuff. ( the 4430's I am using and will be the hardest to sell emotionally - I really love those beasts and they are in very good shape - sigh, and I would hate to just store them away)

Anyway, I'll let you know more when I get them. Now, back to work

4313B
05-18-2005, 08:45 AM
:applaud:

Hey. I've had the same urge. Dump all the old gear, simplify life and buy the Performance Series. It really is good stuff.

My 4430's are already gone and I'm pain free. :p
It was a good long run with those puppies but life goes on. :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 10:21 AM
:applaud:

Hey. I've had the same urge. Dump all the old gear, simplify life and buy the Performance Series. It really is good stuff.

My 4430's are already gone and I'm pain free. :p
It was a good long run with those puppies but life goes on. :rotfl:

There are many dynamics going on here ( space, lady, etc). My lady is a neat freak and doesn't like clutter. I on the other hand will collect and keep stuff even if I won't use it, or after I've played with it, I just keep it. So, this is a good thing for me ( I guess)

as far as the 4430's, I can honestly say that I had more FUN and enjoyment with those speakers than any others. Just something special there.They are really a hoot and I think everyone who is into "old JBL's" must have a pair some time. But you're right, life goes on and maybe the right person will get'em and enjoy as much as I have. However, letting them go may require some emotional therapy and anti-depressents :rotfl:

I'm really excited about the performance series and can't wait. :applaud:

4313B
05-18-2005, 10:31 AM
I'm really excited about the performance series and can't wait. :applaud:I'm excited for you and hope you really enjoy them. :)

clmrt
05-18-2005, 10:38 AM
Ya but, $4000 for a complete stereo pair?

Actually, looking at what's out there, it's not out of line...


(Harmanaudio.com)

4313B
05-18-2005, 10:58 AM
I hear you but, well, I'll be blunt. Back in the mid 70's the designer of the Performance Series designed the 4-way 4315. I've known him that long. In fact, he and another JBL engineer who is now a VP helped me build my first pair of custom, mirror imaged 4315's back in the late 70's.

I had a typical "no bullshit" conversation with the designer roughly a year ago and asked him straight up, point blank. "Is the Performance Series really all that? Give me both barrels." The answer - "Light years ahead."

For price/performance the Performance Series "is all that". It's just a no bullshit system that does a whole bunch of stuff right. And no, Walmart doesn't carry it.

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 11:00 AM
Hi clmrt:

Wellllll, I got a better price on new stuff than what I could get on the harmon site ( not a whole lot, but enough, they're coming from Ca.). It was a good deal and I'm happy with it. I've really been thinking about them since they first came out. Yes, it can sound expensive, but from what everyone is saying ( reviewers) even at the "retail" price they're a bargin compared to other speakers, so why not?

also, I'm not very good at restoring old speakers AND I've had most of them at one time or another.

We'll see if I've made a mistake or not. Once I get them, set them up and "break them in" I'll write my 2 cents worth.

Titanium Dome
05-18-2005, 11:13 AM
Ya but, $4000 for a complete stereo pair?

Actually, looking at what's out there, it's not out of line...


(Harmanaudio.com)


Plus, he's not going to pay that much; I certainly didn't. :bouncy: You'd absolutely choke :barf: if you knew how much I paid for my first new set (5 PT800s, 1 PC600, and 2 PS1400s), but of course I dare not say. Then I got two more used but mint PT800s (to do 7.1) for $233 each, and another brand new PS1400 for $600.

Having said all that, you're right that it's not out of line. This is great stuff at a reasonable retail cost. If JBL ever figures out how to market, distribute, and sell these things, I'm sure the heavily discounted prices will go up. Somebody lost a ton of money on the deal I got, but I had to be dogged in my tracking of a place to buy them.

It's easier with a connection like Mike has, though somewhat more costly (although still cheap!).

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 11:15 AM
Hey Giskard:

just wondering.... Have you given any consideration to doing the crossovers for the PS in charged-couple? I know you've had MikeBake's for awhile but I wasn't sure exactly what you were doing for him ( docking the PT800's with his woofers maybe)

Anyway, any thought's on that and maybe what caps to use? If I save my pennies I may go with some Mundorfs ( and others)

This would be in the future for me.

thanks

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 11:34 AM
Plus, he's not going to pay that much; I certainly didn't. :bouncy

You'd absolutely choke if you knew how much I paid for my first new set.

It's easier with a connection like Mike has, though somewhat more costly (although still cheap!).

Dome:

I'm choking a little ( on the price). I certainly didn't get the price you did, nor did I get the price Mike and his friend got( they bought what was left at the store, mind are being ordered). However, I looked at it this way.
1. I've wanted them a long time AND
2. Finding them new and in the color I want is NOT easy, so instead of searching and waiting, waiting, playing games on ebay etc... I just did it.

Since at this time, I'm not into 5.1 or 7.1 ( I may be later) this was good for me. However, Dome, if you see any others ( PT800, PC600 at or near the price you bought, let me know please ( I may change my mind about 5.1).

Time for lunch.

Titanium Dome
05-18-2005, 12:05 PM
Growing up in Lucas County, Ohio in the 1950s, I would work on my Grandpa's farm off US Route 20-A during the summer. He gave a whole new meaning to "a long row to hoe" when he'd send me out with a hoe into the 40 acre bean field. He also used to tell me, "Sonny boy, why do you always walk around the barn to get to the barn door?" What he was saying, of course, was why can't you just get to the point? You talk too much."

So bear with me.

Sunday night my girlfriend couldn't sleep. She's got final exams at the university this week, and she'll be getting her BS on Friday. She's totally jazzed to be finishing college in her fourth decade. So she asked me to get her mind off school.

I asked her if she remembered songs that were popular when she came to the US from Korea, and she named Janet Jackson, Madonna, Cutting Crew, a few others, and I asked if she remembered Def Leppard.

She didn't and asked what they had done.

Down I went to the basement CD vault and pulled a couple of Leppard CDs to take two flights back to the bedroom. I played Pyromania a few minutes each song, until she'd say, "Oh, I know that." and we'd listen to the whole thing on the bedroom 2.1 set up.

Then I happened to mention how Def Lep used to fill the largest stadiums and how I'd gone to see them. "I wonder what that was like?" she speculated.

Five minutes later we're down on the main floor with the Peformance Series warmed up, pushed by 3200W of pretty clean power at 0dB master volume (a rarity) feeeling our chests thump with the kick of Rick Allen's drums. It's 12:30 AM.

"This is amazing!" she exclaimed. "It seems like the band is right here." At least I think she said that; I couldn't really hear her.

Feeling all that power pulsing through the system, listening to the clean, undistorted impact of the cymbals, the grunge of the guitars, the punch of the bass, next to my girl--it was heaven.

Knowing that those babies could take more if I didn't mind the cops stopping by, thinking about how much larger they sound than they look, how absolutely present they are, I thought Somebody ought to tell GT what a wonderful thing he has wrought. These things are made to be pushed.

Around 2:00 AM during a pause between songs, we heard the neighbors pounding on the door, yelling something. We turned it off and sneaked upstairs with the lights off. I apologized at the mailbox yesterday.
:uhmmmm:

What do you want? What do you want?
I want rock'n'roll, allright
Long live rock'n'roll

Rock of ages, rock of ages
Still rollin' keep a-rollin'
Rock of ages, rock of ages
Still rollin', rock'n'rollin'
We got the power, got the glory
Just say you need it and if you need it:
Say yeah, say YEAH!

We're gonna burn this damn place down
Down to the ground

And so we did. (figuratively) She forgot all about finals and slept like an Angel, thanks to the healing musical power of the JBL Performance Series. THIS is why it matters what speakers I have and why JBL Performance Series is my choice.

Thanks for walking around the barn with me. :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
05-18-2005, 12:17 PM
Dome:

Since at this time, I'm not into 5.1 or 7.1 ( I may be later) this was good for me. However, Dome, if you see any others ( PT800, PC600 at or near the price you bought, let me know please ( I may change my mind about 5.1).

Time for lunch.

These are great in stereo pairs. No worries. On some older stuff I use the pre/pro's analog stereo bypass to go straight to the amps. Nice. Very nice. Vinyl sounds super, and dance tracks are off the charts.*


*Although if you have enough PT800s to use 5 Stereo or 7 Stereo, it'll be club central right in your home. :dj-party:

4313B
05-18-2005, 12:29 PM
.

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 12:55 PM
I had a typical "no bullshit" conversation with the designer roughly a year ago and asked him straight up, point blank. "Is the Performance Series really all that? Give me both barrels." The answer - "Light years ahead."

For price/performance the Performance Series "is all that". It's just a no bullshit system that does a whole bunch of stuff right. And no, Walmart doesn't carry it.

God I love that kind of talk! :D

Say, I thought I saw a reply to the crossover question and then it was gone(????) anyway.. I had planned for the crossovers to be outside the PT800's as i didn't think there would be enough internal room. If you have any thoughts some time in the future about what would be best by all means share.

Thanks

4313B
05-18-2005, 01:04 PM
I'll repost it in awhile.

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 02:04 PM
I'll repost it in awhile.

OK, there's no rush as this is a future thing.

mikebake
05-18-2005, 03:01 PM
I haven't heard them yet, I suspect they'll be okay.
How did the back speakers work for Bob? Did they match up good enough? It was a shot in the dark.....

mikebake
05-18-2005, 03:04 PM
You've made no mistake, friend.
Hi clmrt:

Wellllll, I got a better price on new stuff than what I could get on the harmon site ( not a whole lot, but enough, they're coming from Ca.). It was a good deal and I'm happy with it. I've really been thinking about them since they first came out. Yes, it can sound expensive, but from what everyone is saying ( reviewers) even at the "retail" price they're a bargin compared to other speakers, so why not?

also, I'm not very good at restoring old speakers AND I've had most of them at one time or another.

We'll see if I've made a mistake or not. Once I get them, set them up and "break them in" I'll write my 2 cents worth.

JBLnsince1959
05-18-2005, 03:43 PM
You've made no mistake, friend.

Thanks Mike, I'm pretty sure it'll be just what I want. Thanks to you and Bob for all you did.:thmbsup:


She forgot all about finals and slept like an Angel, thanks to the healing musical power of the JBL Performance Series. THIS is why it matters what speakers I have and why JBL Performance Series is my choice.

Thanks for walking around the barn with me. :bouncy:

....and thanks for the "walk". Great story. It's that kind of talk that pushed me over the edge to get these. DMMD sent me a congrads PM and said "Do we call you R2ti-Dome2 now?" :rotfl:

well, I'm sure I'll love them as much as you do, but I don't think I have the "Right Stuff" to be a Dome-head ( ha :D )

4313B
05-19-2005, 05:30 AM
Hey Giskard:

just wondering.... Have you given any consideration to doing the crossovers for the PS in charged-couple?Yes.

How the end user set up the system would determine the extent and cost of biasing all the filters.

There are four possible configurations for connecting the PT800 tower and the PS1400 subwoofer modules. The PC600 center is always connected directly to the speaker-level outputs of the receiver or amplifier.


Stacked, With Speaker-Level Input to PS1400 and Internal High-Pass Signal Output to PT800.
Stacked, With LFE and Speaker-Level Inputs to PS1400 and Internal High-Pass Signal Output to PT800.
Stacked, With LFE Input to PS1400 and Externally Crossed-Over Input to PT800.
Separated, With LFE Input to PS1400 and Externally Crossed-Over Input to PT800.
1 and 2 would require one to also bias the 310 uF (300 uF NPE + 10 uF mylar + 0.01 uF poly) cap that is in series with the entire PT800 module. That would require opening up the PS1400 as well. The crossover frequency for options 1 and 2 is 130 Hz.

3 and 4 make the option of biasing the PT800 much more attractive. The biased filters would have to be external since the poly caps would be much larger physically than the stock NPE caps. The 908Ti needs the volume of it's subenclosure so putting larger biased poly cap networks inside wouldn't be prudent. The lowest recommended crossover frequency for the PT800 is 80 Hz and that can be accomplished using an AVR; LFE to PS1400's set to 80 Hz and below.

For a dedicated 2-channel configuration the ultimate approach might be biased PT800's crossed over to subs of choice using the DX-1 (also biased).

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 06:05 AM
Thanks Giskard:

I was wondering how complex it would be. Some time in the future (maybe in a year, once I get some money saved) maybe we can discuss this in detail. I printed out the plans of the Pt800 crossover, but didn't see anything about how they docked. That sounds like the complex part.

Anyway, thanks for the time and answer. :)

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 06:36 AM
Giskard:

when I got my email notice of your reply it only showed the first 2 sentences of your reply and left out the "meat", so that's what I was replying to earlier. :banghead: It wasn't until after I replyed that I got to read the the whole thing. Thanks for the time and detail of your reply. I've printed it out and I'm now studing it ( and please understand that I'm fairly brain-dead on electronics, my nerdship goes in other areas).

The only schematic I've seen is of the PT800 itself ( looked simply enough) so I'm missing how they dock and what's inside the 1400. Do you have that?

After a short reading, if I'm understanding the gist of what you said is that options one and two will be more complex ( and thus expensive) because they require running the main signal into 1400 and therefore the electronics of both units ( 800 and 1400) must be reworked and balanced.

whereas ( option 3 and 4) using an external crossover ( also biased) may simplify the process?

or have I completely missed the point.

Thanks again for your wonderful answer. :applaud:

4313B
05-19-2005, 06:41 AM
I think you got it.

Here's the Owner's Manual (http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/Performance%20Series%20OM%20(final)%20revised%202-28-01.pdf)


The only schematic I've seen is of the PT800 itself ( looked simply enough) so I'm missing how they dock and what's inside the 1400. Do you have that?PS1400 Passive Network is switchable using #2 in image 2.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 06:48 AM
Giskard:

10-4..... thanks for the info :applaud: , I'll look it over and try to understand more deeply, so I can talk to you more intelligently :D

4313B
05-19-2005, 06:58 AM
Hmm, that sounds scary...
In a similar tone as to something a friend of yours posted on another forum site...

In any case, you're welcome.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 07:02 AM
Hmm, that sounds scary...


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yes, be afraid....be very afraid..... :D

4313B
05-19-2005, 07:08 AM
Ok!

I like scary! I grew up on Creature Features. :p

Enough of this loudspeaker garbage. One of my favorite vampire hunters.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2005, 07:21 AM
How did she keep her hair so full of body in those damp Transylvanian fogs and rains?

It's almost like asking "How doe JBL keep those eight-sided cabinets aligned during assembly?" or "How does JBL make that vinyl covering fit so well at the seams?"

Just like Kate trying to do her own hair, can you imagine trying to build a PT800 cab? Seems like crossover mods would be easy by comparison. ;)

4313B
05-19-2005, 07:25 AM
How did she keep her hair so full of body in those damp Transylvanian fogs and rains?:rotfl:

can you imagine trying to build a PT800 cab?http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=9983&filter=27501

Titanium Dome
05-19-2005, 07:36 AM
I've got a 1912 wooden Bon Bon pail that's designed similarly, with the additional complexity of the staves being narrower at the bottom than at the top. In the 40 or so years I've owned it, I've never been able to get it perfectly aligned, even with the assistance of the external hoops and the rabbeted bottom panel

The PT800 enclosure would probably be easier to do than this wooden bucket.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 08:37 AM
How did she keep her hair so full of body in those damp Transylvanian fogs and rains?

;)

Yes, the demands and expectations on today's modern women is lot.... kill vampires, clean the house, raise the kids, plow the lower 40 AND STILL look fresh and act like a lady to the public( and be a complete slut in the bedroom), How do they do they it? :D

4313B
05-19-2005, 09:02 AM
They're deft I tell ya!

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 09:50 AM
Giskard:

Just some "general" questions and then I'm off this for awhile.

1. What's an AVR?
2.
A.What are the crossovers? a 6, 12, 18, or 24
B. How can one tell by looking?
3. In your reply you mentioned how if we did option 1 or 2 the crossover is set at 130 ( which I understand), However, in discussing option 3 or 4 you alluded to possiblity setting the crossover point at below 130 ( and not less than 80). Now my question is this...... In your listening to Mike's 800's ( and comparing with other speakers "LE14H-1's for VLF right now. LE14H-1's turned off half the time so I can compare the 8-inch with the old 112H/2108H") did you:

A. reach the conclusion that sonicly maybe a lower crossover point would be better and if so what was it?
B. In your discussion with the designer a year ago, did you talk about the crossover points ( 130 in particualar) and why they choose them.

thanks

DavidF
05-19-2005, 10:13 AM
:rotfl:
http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?offerings_id=9983&filter=27501

Ahh, tools. I could almost spend almost as much money at the Rockler site as I could do on this JBL stuff.

David F

4313B
05-19-2005, 11:41 AM
AVR

4313B
05-19-2005, 11:49 AM
6 dB / octave 130 Hz high pass to the PT800 when selected in the PS1400

12 db / octave 20 Hz high pass in the PS1400 (always on)

18 dB /octave 130 Hz or 300 Hz low pass in the PS1400 (must select one or the other)

4313B
05-19-2005, 11:54 AM
"A. reach the conclusion that sonicly maybe a lower crossover point would be better and if so what was it?"

What crossover point I think is better is irrelevant. That's based on your sub choice, room response, loudspeaker placement, buttered or plain popcorn, etc.

"B. In your discussion with the designer, did you talk about the crossover points ( 130 in particualar) and why they choose them."

No. That wasn't an issue for me.
Someone else asked me that in a PM... :hmm: Someone you know I think... :rotfl:


***


I think there might be a bit of confusion here. The PT800's do not require the PS1400's to operate properly at all. They will operate properly with any sub of your choice providing you have an AVR or an active crossover network such as a DX-1, etc. No surprise here; standard bi-amp fare. If you already have Citation 5.4's, Citation 7.4's, B380's, B460's, 4645C's, SUB1500's, etc then use 'em.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2005, 12:34 PM
I think there might be a bit of confusion here. The PT800's do not require the PS1400's to operate properly at all. They will operate properly with any sub of your choice providing you have an AVR or an active crossover network such as a DX-1, etc. No surprise here; standard bi-amp fare. If you already have Citation 5.4's, Citation 7.4's, B380's, B460's, 4645C's, SUB1500's, etc then use 'em.


Let me comment in two parts:

1) I've got seven PT800s and three PS1400s (plus PC600). Two PT800s are stacked on two PS1400s and at the moment the line signal for both goes into the PS1400s. The other five PT800s and the PS1400 are totally independent of each other. The PT800s are crossed over in the pre/pro above 80 and the PS1400 receives the LFE signal.

2) Prior to buying the third PS1400 I had a Fosgate Audionics CSS200 THX passive sub running. It worked fine with the system, having an LE120 driver in it, but not as well as the PS1400 does. The LE14H-3 is a better, badder baby (as would be a Citation 7.4 or most other 14 or 15 inchers). Ultimately I want four PS1400s, two stacked (primarily for stereo listening) and two free to do LFE-only duty.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 03:14 PM
"A. reach the conclusion that sonicly maybe a lower crossover point would be better and if so what was it?"


I think there might be a bit of confusion here. The PT800's do not require the PS1400's to operate properly at all. They will operate properly with any sub of your choice providing you have an AVR or an active crossover network such as a DX-1, etc. No surprise here; standard bi-amp fare. If you already have Citation 5.4's, Citation 7.4's, B380's, B460's, 4645C's, SUB1500's, etc then use 'em.

Hi Giskard:

no, I'm aware of that and I'm familiar with bi-amping with active crossovers. I was just wondering if you were going somewhere with mentioning crossing over below 130...never mind...I read too much into what you wrote..sorry.

Thanks for the crossover specs. looks interesting. While I was aware that the PT800 can be used with any sub ( I think Mike is using the 1500's you're building) and I have two home made subs with 2235's, I chose to purchase the 1400's to keep life simple( that and they look cool :D )

You know, this is the second time I've written this but just after I finished, I could no longer get on the web site. I tried for about 10 minutes and then figured the site was down. did anyone have this problem today?

4313B
05-19-2005, 03:17 PM
Yeah, they made me a moderator momentarily and took the site down to do full backups.

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be insulting at all. I was just trying to point out that the Performance Series is really a bi-amped system with all the bi-amp stuff supplied in the PS1400 if desired, but that someone could use an external network (even a BX63A) or an AVR instead if desired. It's a versatile system with neato parts. :p

"I choose to purchase the 1400's to keep life simple( that and they look cool http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/biggrin.gif )"

Understood. They are cool.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 03:17 PM
WOW :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Big Duh on my part not recognizing the letters AVR.. OK, OK, :D

thanks

4313B
05-19-2005, 03:24 PM
Yeah well, I didn't know what the hell an AVR was until I asked too.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 03:38 PM
Yeah, they made me a moderator momentarily and took the site down to do full backups.



Sooooooo.. :hmm: are you going to be moderator OFTEN? :D


Anyway, I wasn't trying to be insulting at all. I was just trying to point out that the Performance Series is really a bi-amped system with all the bi-amp stuff supplied in the PS1400 if desired, but that someone could use an external network (even a BX63A) or an AVR instead if desired. It's a versatile system with neato parts

I understand where you're coming from and the position you're in trying to explain something to someone who may not undertand crossovers or electronics. In my line of work I'm either talking over someones head ( and they don't have a clue what I'm saying) OR I'm insulting their intelligence by explaining the basics ( I find insulting more fun :D )... not easy explaining tech stuff to...well... let's just say to a NON-tech person. So here I am with the roles reversed.. I understand both sides. AND NOTHING is worst than having to explain the same thing over...and over..and over.. It's like... gee didn't we just do this ( 10,000 fucking times before!!!)

That's why I really appreciate what you are doing. It's not easy being in your shoes. so again thanks for the help

4313B
05-19-2005, 03:43 PM
Sooooooo.. :hmm: are you going to be moderator OFTEN? :DOnly during the day when it could be inconvenient to others. And not every day, just when it's least expected.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 03:49 PM
Only during the day when it could be inconvenient to others. And not every day, just when it's least expected.

Thank GOD that's cleared up now..... :rotfl:

Titanium Dome
05-19-2005, 03:58 PM
Yeah, they made me a moderator momentarily and took the site down to do full backups.


Giskard as moderator? Oh hell! Hey, where did all my posts go? :(

Titanium Dome
05-19-2005, 04:10 PM
I was just trying to point out that the Performance Series is really a bi-amped system with all the bi-amp stuff supplied in the PS1400 if desired, but that someone could use an external network (even a BX63A) or an AVR instead if desired. It's a versatile system with neato parts. :p

Understood. They are cool.


Yes that really is quite cool, and one of the reasons I was drawn to them. If there was any question as to whether they should be bi-amped or not, the design answered it for you. I saw that as a real step forward. IOW, if you use the PT800 and the PS1400 together, you can't NOT bi-amp the thing.

Plus, with my personal amps running 215W/ch at 8 Ohms, that 400W amp in the PS1400 is a real boost, and it's right next to the driver.

Not being well-versed in crossover technology, I have no way of valuing the internal electronics, but in combination with my Fosgagte FAP T1's crossover and EQing capabilities, it's pretty damn slick.

:bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2005, 04:59 PM
Giskard as moderator? Oh hell! Hey, where did all my posts go? :(

Be afraid....be very afraid.... :D :crying:

Well, at least they WERE backingup the system. When it went "down" I was wondering if it was Backedup..... :biting:

Titanium Dome
05-22-2005, 09:21 AM
This thread is getting long enough that I might be repeating something here, but here's the self-repair page on the PT800:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Do%20it%20yourself%20guides/PT%20800%20Troubl.shooting%20Guid.pdf

Titanium Dome
05-22-2005, 09:27 AM
Even though it's not listed in the support links, a little kludging turned up this similar document for the PC600:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Do%20it%20yourself%20guides/PC%20600%20Troubl.shooting%20Guid.pdf

:D

Titanium Dome
05-22-2005, 09:29 AM
Unfortunately, no such luck with the PS1400. Yet.

JBLnsince1959
05-22-2005, 10:06 AM
This thread is getting long enough that I might be repeating something here

Thanks for the info. Well, this thread might get even longer as I plan to doc the speakers I'm going to get next week. PLUS, a listening review a few weeks after. :)

JBLnsince1959
05-22-2005, 04:40 PM
Yeah, let's not go looking for it and posting the link when we find it either. :scold:
Not right now anyway...

Dumb question of the day.....Why??

Zilch
05-22-2005, 07:26 PM
The Consumer Technical Manuals were closed to us for the last year or more. They have only recently been reopened, apparently with some effort by the forum.

If we start snoopin' and linking to stuff other than what they have authorized for use here, the lid will very likely snap shut again.

What you find outside of what is listed here, keep to private communications for now. It's not likely to be for general publication:

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5784&p=54229

et. seq.

JBLnsince1959
05-25-2005, 03:28 PM
Well, good news, got a call from the trucking company and the speakers should be here sometime between 9 and 2 tomorrow. Really starting to get excited.

Titanium Dome
05-25-2005, 11:10 PM
That's great news. Hope all goes well.

Titanium Dome
05-26-2005, 12:04 AM
If we start snoopin' and linking to stuff other than what they have authorized for use here, the lid will very likely snap shut again.


If I go here:

www.jbl.com

Then I can click a link to go here:

http://jbl.com/home/product_support/default.asp

Then I can search a product, like

PT800

and click "Submit"

Which takes me here

http://jbl.com/home/product_support/default.asp?ProdId=PT800BLK&Submit=Submit

Which gives me a link called "FIX-IT-YOURSELF WARRANTY SERVICE
If your speaker is under warranty and you’d like to fix it yourself, click here for easy to follow fix-it-yourself instructions."

To here:

http://jbl.com/home/product_support/doityourself.asp?prodId=PT800BLK

Then on that page one finds the instruction to click a link to go here:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Do%20it%20yourself%20guides/PT%20800%20Troubl.shooting%20Guid.pdf

Which of those would be okay to post and which wouldn't? They all come off the jbl.com Web site and are accessible to the public. Is it the domain (manuals.harman.com) of the last link that is causing the concern? It's still a direct link to the JBL consumer site. I thought it was a new consumer feature JBL was providing that would be of interest, but if it creates a problem...

If so, I'll be glad to go back and delete those posts (and this one).

Zilch
05-26-2005, 12:28 AM
I'd say if you can access it directly via the Harman site, you can post it here.

BUT, I ain't arbiter of nothin' here.

I'm just tellin' how I understand it.... :)

4313B
05-26-2005, 05:58 AM
I'd say if you can access it directly via the Harman site, you can post it here.Ditto

Robh3606
05-26-2005, 08:27 AM
I have been posting links to the JBL Pro Site for years. I don't see the links as an issue. All that does is make it easier for someone in this forum to find public information on their web site. Don has the the final call on it but I don't see it as a problem.


Rob:)

JBLnsince1959
05-26-2005, 05:50 PM
well, got the performance series today, inside and working :applaud: . This was no small feat. I was waiting for them and they arrived at 9:40AM. The truck driver just drop off the pallet they were on in the drive way, so I had to get everything inside myself :banghead: . Usually not a major issue, but I've pulled my right shoulder and thanks to diabeties it's been very slow to heal, somethings I just can't do. the PT800 were not much of a problem if my left arm took most the weight but the 1400's !!!! Slooooowly I "walked" them to the door, up the 3 steps, thru the house ( to grandma's house we go - oh wrong song, sorry), and down the basement stairs. Then I had to get them out of boxes without destorying the boxes. :blink:

Finally had to put them together. Only had time to run thru 2 1/2 CD's so far. (yeah, it took all day to get them ready)

Opps, time to eat, I'll write more later. :uhmmmm:

JBLnsince1959
05-26-2005, 07:22 PM
Ok, first impressions..... I'm hearing things that I've never heard before....really!!! Wife said to me " Those look nice". WOW, never heard that before.

I'll let them run for a few days more.

JBLnsince1959
05-26-2005, 07:32 PM
Well, I will say this. After only 1 minute I could tell that these things have absolutely NO FU*KING BASS what so ever( at least not until you TURN ON the bass amp) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Audiobeer
05-26-2005, 09:28 PM
Sounds like a kid on christmas morning! Isn't it amazing as we get older how much more motivated we have to be to start moving equipment around and trying new equipment. I think you got motivated today! Push comes to shove call the doc for some vicodin but please post some pics!

:applaud:

MJC
05-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Well, I will say this. After only 1 minute I could tell that these things have absolutely NO FU*KING BASS what so ever( at least not until you TURN ON the bass amp) :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That's as it should be, with a sat/sub system, be it a L212 or the PS.

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 06:35 AM
Sounds like a kid on christmas morning!

:applaud:

yes indeed and then once it was all together, I still had the boxes to "play in" :D

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 06:49 AM
That's as it should be, with a sat/sub system, be it a L212 or the PS.

yes, and I know better too. It's amazing how exacting I was to make sure all the connections, screws, switches were correct. Reread the instructions carefully (twice) to make sure I had done everything correctly, and then I pulled the biggest DUH possible :screwy: :crying: :banghead:

I wish someone could have been there to take a picture of my face when I first fired them up. :D

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 09:05 AM
Ok, first impressions..... I'm hearing things that I've never heard before....really!!! Wife said to me " Those look nice". WOW, never heard that before.

I'll let them run for a few days more.

A) My girlfriend said almost the same thing: "Those look neat." High praise however they say it, since women are more highly influenced in opinions by visual cues. (Not just my opinion, do a search on female sensory perception and preferences.)

B) I'll be curious if you have a similar experience to mine after a day or two.

Regis
05-27-2005, 09:37 AM
It must've been very exciting to get all those neat-o boxes packed with JBL goodness inside! And you ate too? It sounds like they're performing to all your expectations (at least when you turn the bass on!) and then some! I'm gonna have to hear one of these systems one of these days!


[QUOTE=JBLnsince1959]well, got the performance series today, inside and working! Opps, time to eat, I'll write more later [QUOTE=JBLnsince1959]

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 09:40 AM
I was waiting for them and they arrived at 9:40AM. The truck driver just drop off the pallet they were on in the drive way, so I had to get everything inside myself :banghead: . Usually not a major issue, but I've pulled my right shoulder and thanks to diabeties it's been very slow to heal, somethings I just can't do. the PT800 were not much of a problem if my left arm took most the weight but the 1400's !!!! Slooooowly I "walked" them to the door, up the 3 steps, thru the house ( to grandma's house we go - oh wrong song, sorry), and down the basement stairs. Then I had to get them out of boxes without destorying the boxes. :blink:



I don't know how you did the PS1400s by yourself with an injured shoulder. I was supposedly in good health when I got my pallet in the driveway. I did the easy stuff first, five PT800s and the PC600, saving the PS1400s for last. Each one had to be unboxed in the garage, then carted up two flights of stairs to the set up area.

By the time I got to the PS1400s, I was fatigued, out of breath, and covered in sweat. I thought I'd get a hernia lifting those things out of the boxes, not simply because they weigh 80 lb., but also because it's so frickin' awkward leaning over the box, keeping the flaps out of the way, lifting the enclosure, holding the box down, keeping the bottom packing from binding the speaker and box into an inseparable unit, and trying not to drop the speaker or stick my slippery, sweaty hand through the driver. I uttered many expletives that night. :biting: MANY expletives. :biting:

Decidedly worth the effort, however, and I utter different words when listening to these babies. Positive expletives. :yes:

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 09:52 AM
I wish someone could have been there to take a picture of my face when I first fired them up. :D


Since we've ALL :homer: been there at one time or another, we pretty much know how it feels. Last time I did something like that I was close enough to a mirror that I could actually look at myself. It wasn pretty. :barf:

But then, it never is. :spchless:

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 01:31 PM
I thought I'd get a hernia lifting those things out of the boxes, not simply because they weigh 80 lb., but also because it's so frickin' awkward leaning over the box, keeping the flaps out of the way, lifting the enclosure, holding the box down, keeping the bottom packing from binding the speaker and box into an inseparable unit, and trying not to drop the speaker or stick my slippery, sweaty hand through the driver. I uttered many expletives that night. :biting: MANY expletives. :biting:

Positive expletives. :yes:

Dome:

I'll address the sound of the speakers shortly. However, I did not lift the 1400's out of the boxes ( impossible for me). Here's how I did it. I "walked" the boxes to "Rick's Room" downstairs. Once I had them in the room I slowly and carefully ( speakers still in the boxes) turned ( rotated 180) the boxes upside down so the bottom was facing upwards and the top was on the floor. I then cut the tape and then taped the flaps to the sides. Next I slowly turned ( rotated 180)the boxes back to their upright position so that the bottom was open and sitting on the floor. Next I cut the tape on the top and simply lifted the box upward while gravity kept the speaker on the floor. The entire speaker was sitting on the floor with both top and bottom foam in place. I then lifted the foam off the top and removed the grill.

This left the 1400 still sitting on the bottom foam sitting on the floor. There was still no way I could lift the 1400 from the foam. So I repeated the process. I carefully rotated( 180) both the foam and speaker so that the top of the speaker was on the floor and the bottom foam was now on top. I was carefull to turn ( rotate)the speaker towards it's side and not towards either the front or back because if I slipped then I might damage either the woofer or the controls. Then I removed the bottom foam and then again rotated the speaker so that the bottom was on the floor. Next I "walked" it to where I wanted it. Ditto for the second 1400.

this way I never had to lift the 1400's or bear the full weight but instead leveraged the weight while I was rotating them. I was able to use mostly my left arm and only use the right for guiding. However, if I had slipped it would have been doomsday for the speakers. I just did a little at a time and then rested. Mostly I got lucky. Even tho my right arm never had to bear much weight, it was enough to send extreme pain from my shoulder all the way down my arm ( Ok, I admit it, tears came to my eyes it was so painful :biting: ). Again I was just damn lucky I didn't "drop" them.

Next post will address the sound.

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 01:53 PM
I'm gonna have to hear one of these systems one of these days!


Come by any time!!! :D

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 03:41 PM
By the time I got to the PS1400s, I was fatigued, out of breath, and covered in sweat.

too many hot dogs? :D

Titanium Dome
05-27-2005, 04:01 PM
too many hot dogs? :D

Too many steps and not enough rehydration: afraid to drink beer while doing this delicate work.

JBLnsince1959
05-27-2005, 06:55 PM
.....afraid to drink beer while doing this delicate work.


Dome:
Very smart move!!! Tonight I'll be listening with my drink in hand ( no more than two tho) :D

Yes, I think my experience and first reaction was close to yours. The sound is changing and I like the change I'm hearing. Very nice so far. last night just before I went to eat, it had really been playing about 21/2 hours with 3 CD's ( I put it on random and let it be for awhile). First real audition was VERY disappointing ( I'll go into details later) and as I went to dinner ( I left the CD on to play while I was gone)I was thinking 'My God what have I done? Christ.. I should have just kept my 4430's and been happy". So, I had dinner, walked Whit, talked with the wife on the patio and about 11/2 hours later went back down to listen and something magical happened in that hour and half. The sound had changed completely and I was liking it.

Now, the 4430 is a very hard act to follow for many reasons ( again I'll go into details later) and so I may be tough to please.

It's only been a little over one day now, so I'm going to wait a few more days and then go into real detail ( when I get the time) on the sound.

Bottomline is I'm liking the sound very much and and I'm very impressed with the PS.

JBLnsince1959
05-28-2005, 07:02 AM
Too many steps and not enough rehydration: afraid to drink beer while doing this delicate work.

try water instead.. it works great for rehydration. Not good for anything else tho. :D