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mikebake
02-17-2012, 07:36 AM
I still like what I recall of the PS1400 with 800's, but the sub1500 is just more beasty, and still musical. I am crossing at 80. I'm currently using the subs "docked" under the REAR speakers; just the way it is currently working out. Seems to be working well.

howaboutthat41
02-19-2012, 09:46 AM
I just acquired a matched pair of PT800's and PS1400's mounted as a two-channel system, along with a separate, for now, PC600 hooked up to a surround system with a pair of Revel M22's (same tweeter!) and cheap JBL satellites. The Performance Series components ultimately will collect into a surround system of its own. The stacked towers sound amazing, powered by a JBL AVA7 and Marantz AV7005 combination. Given the placement (and mounting) flexibility of these incredibly musical speakers, this should have been a blockbuster product line for JBL and Harman. One wonders if they did not get caught up in the internecine noise and machinations at Harman, ending up sacrificed at the altar of the Revel Ultima 2 (Gem) series (with the audiophile grade market divided more neatly between Revel, on the dome front, and JBL Synthesis in the horn-loaded realm). Even at MSRP these are mind-boggling speakers. Phenomenal stuff. :)

rdgrimes
02-19-2012, 10:56 AM
Welcome to the cult, enjoy the Koolaid.

The PS line is and always has been JBL's best kept secret.

Mr. Widget
02-19-2012, 01:15 PM
I just acquired a matched pair of PT800's and PS1400's mounted as a two-channel system, along with a separate, for now, PC600 hooked up to a surround system with a pair of Revel M22's (same tweeter!) and cheap JBL satellites. The Performance Series components ultimately will collect into a surround system of its own. The stacked towers sound amazing, powered by a JBL AVA7 and Marantz AV7005 combination. Given the placement (and mounting) flexibility of these incredibly musical speakers, this should have been a blockbuster product line for JBL and Harman. One wonders if they did not get caught up in the internecine noise and machinations at Harman, ending up sacrificed at the altar of the Revel Ultima 2 (Gem) series (with the audiophile grade market divided more neatly between Revel, on the dome front, and JBL Synthesis in the horn-loaded realm). Even at MSRP these are mind-boggling speakers. Phenomenal stuff. :)Congratulations on acquiring a Performance Series system. I also commend you on your choice of electronics... excellent bang for the buck in the surround realm.

I wouldn't say that Harman sacrificed the JBLs for the Revels, but rather the fine folks in charge of JBL were rather rudderless during this time period- late 1990's-early 2000s. Revel on the other hand had a definite focus.

A correction: The Revel M22 and the Performance Series most certainly do not use the same tweeter. I've replaced both for customers. If you pull them out of their enclosures you'll be surprised at the difference. The M22 uses a motor that is several times more massive and looks better built.


Widget

howaboutthat41
02-19-2012, 05:11 PM
Congratulations on acquiring a Performance Series system. I also commend you on your choice of electronics... excellent bang for the buck in the surround realm.

I wouldn't say that Harman sacrificed the JBLs for the Revels, but rather the fine folks in charge of JBL were rather rudderless during this time period- late 1990's-early 2000s. Revel on the other hand had a definite focus.

A correction: The Revel M22 and the Performance Series most certainly do not use the same tweeter. I've replaced both for customers. If you pull them out of their enclosures you'll be surprised at the difference. The M22 uses a motor that is several times more massive and looks better built.


Widget



Thanks -- took a bit of a liberty on the tweeter statement -- know they are both Audax titanium 25 mm units. They do sound close to my ears, as least.

pathfindermwd
02-19-2012, 08:42 PM
I still like what I recall of the PS1400 with 800's, but the sub1500 is just more beasty, and still musical. I am crossing at 80. I'm currently using the subs "docked" under the REAR speakers; just the way it is currently working out. Seems to be working well.

Hi Mike,

Was just curious, what is the front speaker setup?

mikebake
02-20-2012, 07:32 AM
Hi Mike,

Was just curious, what is the front speaker setup?

800's and 600 center. Instead of putting the subs under them, they are under the rears, but only docked physically, not electrically.

pathfindermwd
02-29-2012, 07:37 AM
I always wished this speaker had more descriptive reviews. For those considering a set, here is mine! :)

Monday night I got the stacks up and running and I what else can I say but wow! All my music sounds great and better than ever.

These speakers were to be an upgrade from my L100T3's which I love and my 240ti's which played some music well but never grew on me. For anyone who can use that sound as a reference I can unequivocally opinion that these speakers are better, absolutely better!! These speakers have made my recently purchased tube buffer obsolete, there is no more digital harshness, there is no more uncontrolled shrill to soften. This speaker has definition, and control.

Unlike the 240ti these speakers are not laid back, they are bold and have an excellent but very well controlled top end. Unlike the L100T3 they are not forward impolitely but they retain the liveliness of the music with better balance and no listening fatigue. The 240ti's are a quiet speaker that ask you to peer into the music with their nuance, the T3 is a party animal that presents the music to you leaving little to wonder. The performance series speaker is a blend between the two sounds but with better more capable drivers. It's not in between them, it is far above, right up the center.

The speakers are loud! With the woofer being powered by it's own amp, my NAD can drive these speakers further along the volume knob, without any perceptible distortion. I didn't think I would need to worry about buying another amp with these speakers but they are just so capable, they could use more than the 150 watts my NAD can dish out, and I think they could do it without loosing their composure. TI said it best, they are Righteously Loud! And when they are turned up they vibrate the air with the realism of a live performance I never knew possible. I have run two sets of speakers together sometimes for loudness, and they can't match the sound of one set of these speakers, nowhere close, there's no contest.

And they're not just loud, they're detailed. I hear things presented in a way never before. They don't make you dig for the sound, or bore you, but they are not sassy either, they just present the music in a way that seems natural and wholesome, and they make it look easy. Refined is not a word I would choose, these speakers are not uppity or snobbish, like true talent they just do it, and you know.

Warm, bright, soft, harsh, revealing, quiet, forget about these words that describe the leaning of a speakers coloration, these speakers are TRUE when the truth is something shockingly beautiful to behold. They are center of these descriptions. And forget about neutral, neutral is boring, these speakers make neutral feel constipated. This is not a pitch, what I am trying to say is that these speakers are the real deal people! These speakers have successfully surpassed my old standby's in almost every single regard (see below). Of course I'll never part with the T3, it's a beautiful speaker that I have put alot of effort into refinishing and re-coning ect., and it has a certain personality I'll always like.



Nothing is perfect. If I had one gripe I should fess up about the Performance Series is growly bass. I have listened to alot of LE14H's in 240ti's and 250ti's and their low end is exceptional. I am wondering if this growliness is the result of the tuning of the small box. Any others who have noticed this? Any fix?

To be clear, the bass from these boxes is shaking the house better than ever. These PS1400's are impressive in their output. To that end, I am very satisfied. The hoarseness is my one issue.

howaboutthat41
02-29-2012, 07:56 AM
I always wished this speaker had more descriptive reviews. For those considering a set, here is mine! :)

Monday night I got the stacks up and running and I what else can I say but wow! All my music sounds great and better than ever.

These speakers were to be an upgrade from my L100T3's which I love and my 240ti's which played some music well but never grew on me. For anyone who can use that sound as a reference I can unequivocally opinion that these speakers are better, absolutely better!! These speakers have made my recently purchased tube buffer obsolete, there is no more digital harshness, there is no more uncontrolled shrill to soften. This speaker has definition, and control.

Unlike the 240ti these speakers are not laid back, they are bold and have an excellent but very well controlled top end. Unlike the L100T3 they are not forward impolitely but they retain the liveliness of the music with better balance and no listening fatigue. The 240ti's are a quiet speaker that ask you to peer into the music with their nuance, the T3 is a party animal that presents the music to you leaving little to wonder. The performance series speaker is a blend between the two sounds but with better more capable drivers. It's not in between them, it is far above, right up the center.

The speakers are loud! With the woofer being powered by it's own amp, my NAD can drive these speakers further along the volume knob, without any perceptible distortion. I didn't think I would need to worry about buying another amp with these speakers but they are just so capable, they could use more than the 150 watts my NAD can dish out, and I think they could do it without loosing their composure. TI said it best, they are Righteously Loud! And when they are turned up they vibrate the air with the realism of a live performance I never knew possible. I have run two sets of speakers together sometimes for loudness, and they can't match the sound of one set of these speakers, nowhere close, there's no contest.

And they're not just loud, they're detailed. I hear things presented in a way never before. They don't make you dig for the sound, or bore you, but they are not sassy either, they just present the music in a way that seems natural and wholesome, and they make it look easy. Refined is not a word I would choose, these speakers are not uppity or snobbish, like true talent they just do it, and you know.

Warm, bright, soft, harsh, revealing, quiet, forget about these words that describe the leaning of a speakers coloration, these speakers are TRUE when the truth is something shockingly beautiful to behold. They are center of these descriptions. And forget about neutral, neutral is boring, these speakers make neutral look constipated. This is not a pitch, what I am trying to say is that these speakers are the real deal people! These speakers have successfully surpassed my old standby's in almost every single regard (see below). Of course I'll never part with the T3, it's a beautiful speaker that I have put alot of effort into refinishing and re-coning ect., and it has a certain personality I'll always like.



Nothing is perfect. If I had one gripe I should fess up about the Performance Series is growly bass. I have listened to alot of LE14H's in 240ti's and 250ti's and their low end is exceptional. I am wondering if this growliness is the result of the tuning of the small box. Any others who have noticed this? Any fix?

To be clear, the bass from these boxes is shaking the house better than ever. These PS1400's are impressive in their output. To that end, I am very satisfied. The hoarseness is my one issue.






Well put! No growly bass here, however -- the PS1400's are amazing (not using them for LFE stuff at the moment). Of note, there is a set of PT800/PS1400 towers on ebay for local pickup in D.C., I believe. Having heard these, and if I did not have a complete set already, I absolutely would drive the several hours and pick them up myself.

pathfindermwd
02-29-2012, 08:05 AM
The replacements..

RedCoat23
02-29-2012, 10:06 AM
Try putting an isolation platform underneath each speaker.

I have a pair of Great Gramma's under my Performance Stacks. They really tightened up the sound and stopped the floor coupling, for around $70 a piece its a good investment IMHO. It might help with the growl...:)

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp

54932

pathfindermwd
02-29-2012, 10:48 AM
Try putting an isolation platform underneath each speaker.

I have a pair of Great Gramma's under my Performance Stacks. They really tightened up the sound and stopped the floor coupling, for around $70 a piece its a good investment IMHO. It might help with the growl...:)

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_gramma/sound_isolation_gramma.asp

54932

Hi RedCoat23. Nice suggestion. I too noted the lowness of the driver compared to the 240's and 250's., and the port is hugging the ground. I'll see if I can find something to raise them and see if it helps.

rdgrimes
02-29-2012, 11:17 AM
The replacements..

That table right in front of your stacks isn't helping you any.

Mr. Widget
02-29-2012, 11:22 AM
That table right in front of your stacks isn't helping you any.True, but his primary issue seems to be the "growling" bass... I doubt the table will have any affect on that. :)

BTW: What is "growling" bass?


Widget

pathfindermwd
02-29-2012, 11:51 AM
That table right in front of your stacks isn't helping you any.

It helps me by holding my food, and my keyboard and remotes. :p


True, but his primary issue seems to be the "growling" bass... I doubt the table will have any affect on that. :)

BTW: What is "growling" bass?


Widget

Well, there is a reverberation to it. A hoarsness. A subwoofer effect I wasn't expecting from this driver. I have the NAD bass turned up about 50% for the PT800's, the PS1400's are at -1db and about 80% gain.

Mr. Widget
02-29-2012, 12:07 PM
Well, there is a reverberation to it. A hoarsness. A subwoofer effect I wasn't expecting from this driver. I have the NAD bass turned up about 50% for the PT800's, the PS1400's are at -1db and about 80% gain.Is this hoarseness coming from both speakers? I would drag them into a different room and another location and see if you have the same condition. This doesn't sound right to me. Some sort of pad like the one suggested above might help, but if your woofers are making strange noises and it isn't due to placement or setup, it might be that your woofer(s) is/are not be quite right. :hmm:


Widget

pathfindermwd
02-29-2012, 12:35 PM
Is this hoarseness coming from both speakers? I would drag them into a different room and another location and see if you have the same condition. This doesn't sound right to me. Some sort of pad like the one suggested above might help, but if your woofers are making strange noises and it isn't due to placement or setup, it might be that your woofer(s) is/are not be quite right. :hmm:


Widget


I turned the balance back and forth and couldn't detect a difference between the two. When both come on there is a noticeable rise in bass; room gain where the vibration starts? I held my ear to the cab and couldn't detect any strange noises. I am really thinking it is their proximity to the floor. I can feel the vibration in the woofers; port chuffing maybe? I'm looking for something to raise them 2-4"

rdgrimes
02-29-2012, 01:56 PM
I turned the balance back and forth and couldn't detect a difference between the two. When both come on there is a noticeable rise in bass; room gain where the vibration starts? I held my ear to the cab and couldn't detect any strange noises. I am really thinking it is their proximity to the floor. I can feel the vibration in the woofers; port chuffing maybe? I'm looking for something to raise them 2-4"

Sounds to me like you are describing a room issue. Perhaps removing the table for a brief test would be a good step, as well as some placement adjustments. The PS1400 is one of the cleanest sounding bass modules I've heard.

Here, when placed near a corner they can develop a peak around 60Hz by as much as 10-12db. Definitely in the "growling" range. I'm pretty certain that you won't hear any port chuffing from them either. A sine-wave test tone at 20Hz can rule that out. (be careful) At the levels needed to generate some port noise, you'd be pushing them pretty hard.

howaboutthat41
02-29-2012, 03:35 PM
I turned the balance back and forth and couldn't detect a difference between the two. When both come on there is a noticeable rise in bass; room gain where the vibration starts? I held my ear to the cab and couldn't detect any strange noises. I am really thinking it is their proximity to the floor. I can feel the vibration in the woofers; port chuffing maybe? I'm looking for something to raise them 2-4"


No such dynamics here, even with the PS1400's barely off the floor.

Titanium Dome
02-29-2012, 04:13 PM
Nothing is perfect. If I had one gripe I should fess up about the Performance Series is growly bass. I have listened to alot of LE14H's in 240ti's and 250ti's and their low end is exceptional. I am wondering if this growliness is the result of the tuning of the small box. Any others who have noticed this? Any fix?

To be clear, the bass from these boxes is shaking the house better than ever. These PS1400's are impressive in their output. To that end, I am very satisfied. The hoarseness is my one issue.


A: Glad to read that you like them so much, and thanks for posting your impressions. It's a good read. :)

B: I've had PS1400s in a number of set ups and locations and didn't experience any growling bass. Some of these locations were less than ideal. Having written that, I've not had them in every conceivable location, so if I were you, I'd suspect placement first, then something in the room (floor, wall, furniture) that comes into play, then the room itself (dimensions, room volume, shape, etc.)

Does the growling seem different in different places in the room? If you go out of the room, does the bass continue to growl? Muddier? Cleaner?

If it sounds equally growly everywhere, then you should take Widget's advice and determine if there's a physical or electrical defect. First make sure your connections are correct, all the right switches are in the right places, and that you're not inadvertently using any kind of crossover in your pre/pro or have the speaker selector set to the wrong setting or that the loudness control is engaged--all simple things, I know, but simple is what often gets us.

rpatt
02-29-2012, 05:53 PM
I always wished this speaker had more descriptive reviews. For those considering a set, here is mine! :)

Monday night I got the stacks up and running and I what else can I say but wow! All my music sounds great and better than ever.

These speakers were to be an upgrade from my L100T3's which I love and my 240ti's which played some music well but never grew on me. For anyone who can use that sound as a reference I can unequivocally opinion that these speakers are better, absolutely better!! These speakers have made my recently purchased tube buffer obsolete, there is no more digital harshness, there is no more uncontrolled shrill to soften. This speaker has definition, and control.

Unlike the 240ti these speakers are not laid back, they are bold and have an excellent but very well controlled top end. Unlike the L100T3 they are not forward impolitely but they retain the liveliness of the music with better balance and no listening fatigue. The 240ti's are a quiet speaker that ask you to peer into the music with their nuance, the T3 is a party animal that presents the music to you leaving little to wonder. The performance series speaker is a blend between the two sounds but with better more capable drivers. It's not in between them, it is far above, right up the center.

The speakers are loud! With the woofer being powered by it's own amp, my NAD can drive these speakers further along the volume knob, without any perceptible distortion. I didn't think I would need to worry about buying another amp with these speakers but they are just so capable, they could use more than the 150 watts my NAD can dish out, and I think they could do it without loosing their composure. TI said it best, they are Righteously Loud! And when they are turned up they vibrate the air with the realism of a live performance I never knew possible. I have run two sets of speakers together sometimes for loudness, and they can't match the sound of one set of these speakers, nowhere close, there's no contest.

And they're not just loud, they're detailed. I hear things presented in a way never before. They don't make you dig for the sound, or bore you, but they are not sassy either, they just present the music in a way that seems natural and wholesome, and they make it look easy. Refined is not a word I would choose, these speakers are not uppity or snobbish, like true talent they just do it, and you know.

Warm, bright, soft, harsh, revealing, quiet, forget about these words that describe the leaning of a speakers coloration, these speakers are TRUE when the truth is something shockingly beautiful to behold. They are center of these descriptions. And forget about neutral, neutral is boring, these speakers make neutral feel constipated. This is not a pitch, what I am trying to say is that these speakers are the real deal people! These speakers have successfully surpassed my old standby's in almost every single regard (see below). Of course I'll never part with the T3, it's a beautiful speaker that I have put alot of effort into refinishing and re-coning ect., and it has a certain personality I'll always like.



Nothing is perfect. If I had one gripe I should fess up about the Performance Series is growly bass. I have listened to alot of LE14H's in 240ti's and 250ti's and their low end is exceptional. I am wondering if this growliness is the result of the tuning of the small box. Any others who have noticed this? Any fix?

To be clear, the bass from these boxes is shaking the house better than ever. These PS1400's are impressive in their output. To that end, I am very satisfied. The hoarseness is my one issue.

It's been a long time since I've read a new review on the PS speakers, thanks for that. I'm also using the Auralex risers that Redcoat mentioned. It does help.

pathfindermwd
03-01-2012, 04:47 AM
Here, when placed near a corner they can develop a peak around 60Hz by as much as 10-12db. Definitely in the "growling" range. I'm pretty certain that you won't hear any port chuffing from them either. A sine-wave test tone at 20Hz can rule that out. (be careful) At the levels needed to generate some port noise, you'd be pushing them pretty hard.

That sounds like what initially happened here too, when they were first set up. This is very surprising since I have had two sets of speakers in the corner's before and never heard such extreme bass excitement. All of the speakers put up against the wall were ported in the back too, so it makes this problem even more perplexing to me. It makes me appreciate just how powerful the 800 watts of power is that come with the PS1400's.

I have some time to play with them today and will try to move things around. Still working on getting them off the floor as well.

rdgrimes, were you the member who chose not to use the risers between the PT800 and PS1400? I was looking at your avater and trying to remember.

rdgrimes
03-01-2012, 06:53 AM
rdgrimes, were you the member who chose not to use the risers between the PT800 and PS1400? I was looking at your avater and trying to remember.

No. the avatar is just a sloppy photoshop image I made because there are no decent images around of a stack.

pathfindermwd
03-01-2012, 09:35 AM
Early update on the growl.

First, I pulled the table out of the way. I've had it out before and it just doesn't make a big difference. It's not as big as it looks in the photo, it's just closer. It didn't make a bass difference.

Second, I pulled the speakers forward about 2.5' just to make sure it wasn't the corners. I think bass levels dropped some but that reverberation bass issue remained. This reverberation, it sounds just like it feels if you touch your fingers to the woofer during bass notes, it vibrates. It's that vibration amplified. It's choppy. Like when Tommy Boy talks into the fan "Luke I am your father", only to be rudely disturbed. :)

Third, I raised the speakers 3.5" off the floor carefully setting them on the sides of 2x4's. It's harder than you might think! That was the ticket. That's the problem!! Not completely eliminated but very good. I check the distance of the woofer from the floor, it's 8". I check the 240ti; it's nearly 10". I guess I'm just not used to hearing that driver so close to the floor. There was definitely a resonance being amplified being so close to the floor, and I can see why it sounded kind of like a sub-woofer rather than the clean woofer bass I am used to. I guess I can more fully appreciate why they always kept those woofer drivers so high on the cabinets.

All things being equal, this is the one factor that makes the most sense. The room had not changed, nor any of the upstream components. Where bass was concerned the biggest change was amplified boxes, and driver spacing. Now I have to see if raising the speakers 4" will have a negative effect on the sound, though it still sounds very balanced so far.

I appreciate all of the input. :)

Titanium Dome
03-01-2012, 01:58 PM
Placement is a three-dimensional activity. :)

Of course, as you raise the bottom, you also raise the top, so be mindful of the tweeter position. With those EOS Waveguides, it should pose no problems, but I don't know how far away or how high your normal listening position is, and, as you write, it sounds very balanced so far. We'll be interested to hear your impressions when you go a little higher.

BMWCCA
03-01-2012, 02:12 PM
I'm betting someone here got these! :coolness:

JBL Performance Series speakers PT-800 PS-1400 (pair)

(http://ebayitem.com/290673820797) 54936

One bid at $990 in DC.

JBLAddict
03-02-2012, 03:49 PM
holy cannoli what a deal, and I thought getting a single Ti10K for $988 off Harman ebay was the bargain of the century

Slare
03-25-2012, 03:03 PM
Harmon refurbed PS1400's on the Harmon site at $303 each shipped. Helluva deal.

Titanium Dome
03-26-2012, 08:20 PM
And thank you mods, but what the hell was that?:eek::dont-know:

Anyway, to get back on track, we had a day-and-a-half of rain here in SoCal, so yesterday I sat down in the family room, turned on the Performance Series MCH system, and listened to Beck's Sea Change DVD-A while watching the rain and wind pummel the palm trees in the canyon behind the house. It was a wonderful display by Mother Nature and another completely satisfying complement by the JBL Performance Series. I do love this system! :yes:

gferrell
03-26-2012, 08:38 PM
Wow, I missed this one, my brother lives in DC and would have picked them up for me or one of us.

JBLAddict
03-26-2012, 10:55 PM
And thank you mods, but what the hell was that?:eek::dont-know:

Anyway, to get back on track, we had a day-and-a-half of rain here in SoCal, so yesterday I sat down in the family room, turned on the Performance Series MCH system, and listened to Beck's Sea Change DVD-A while watching the rain and wind pummel the palm trees in the canyon behind the house. It was a wonderful display by Mother Nature and another completely satisfying complement by the JBL Performance Series. I do love this system! :yes:

what a combo :)

and luckily the previous post was emailed to me so I can read it for entertainment whenever, great stuff!

rpatt
03-27-2012, 01:11 AM
Don't check in for one day and miss the action. Good choice on Beck's "Sea Change". I have it on SACD and it sounds great on the PS speakers.

rpatt
04-11-2012, 03:59 AM
Check out the picture in the last post on the page.

http://www.musik-hifi-stammtisch.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=63985

Titanium Dome
04-11-2012, 08:20 AM
Check out the picture in the last post on the page.

http://www.musik-hifi-stammtisch.de/wbb2/thread.php?postid=63985

Ah, the 60th Anniversary TL260. We had a thread on that around here somewhere: Studio L guts in a 250 look-alike cabinet.

Titanium Dome
04-11-2012, 08:30 AM
Here's a thread on it.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?17438-TL260-or-L890

In any event, it's not a part of the Performance Series, though it served as another incentive to try to make a Performance-based PT250 with grumpy.

rpatt
04-11-2012, 07:51 PM
Thanks for the link. You have a good memory. I’m amazed that with all the googling I’ve done on JBL speakers, I’ve never come across these.

jblsound
05-05-2012, 07:20 PM
I still like what I recall of the PS1400 with 800's, but the sub1500 is just more beasty, and still musical. I am crossing at 80. I'm currently using the subs "docked" under the REAR speakers; just the way it is currently working out. Seems to be working well.

When I use the sub1500 with my L212 I cross @ 70 htz. But when the PT800s are stacked on the 1500s, I set the XO @125, seems to work very well. Especially in a room not ideal. Right now I've got the 1500s and the mains separated, with the 1500 pair stacked behind a center column between two archways, so its back to the normal XO.

jblsound
05-06-2012, 01:16 PM
I got thinking of the stated 80 htz XO points to be used with the PT800s, when setup separate from the PS1400s or used with other subs.
And as I mentioned, when I had them stacked to the sub1500s, I set the subs to 125 htz. So I thought I would use that same setting with the sub1500s stacked on the centerline of the listening area. I did have to reduce the subs' volume, compared to when I had the L212s in the system, @ 70 htz XO, to compensate for the rise of the PT800's volume @ 130 htz.
Actually I set the subs' XOs to 125 as that was right on a major XO frequency mark, so I could get both subs the same. The system sounds great, once I got the subs volume set to better blend in with the PT800 rolloff.

Of coarse, if the subs were not on the centerline between the PT800s, the 125 XO point would not work, due to localization. As in the case of Mike Bakes' setup with the 1500s in the back.

jblsound
05-10-2012, 09:10 PM
Well, after almost 3 months of tinkering with the location, toe-in angle and the final piece of the puzzle, elevation of the PT800s/L212s its completely dialed in. Removing both from the subs and dropping them about 9" did the trick. Placing them on the 13" tall L212 bases.
After playing the L212s for a week, I then replaced them with the PT800s and for the first time, in this room, the PT800s feel at home. I can certainly understand the L212s coming in on their original bases, as that is how they were designed. But finding the right setup for the PT800s on those 13" bases surprised me, as the PT800s are designed to be mounted to the PS1400s thus sitting at an elevation about 48" above the floor. So they are now about 10" lower than that.

4313B
05-11-2012, 06:33 AM
I'm not at all surprised.

I'm glad you got them dialed in.

jblsound
05-11-2012, 07:30 AM
I'm not at all surprised.

I'm glad you got them dialed in.

One of the main problems here, in Ecuador, all buildings are concrete post&beam, floors. With the walls constructed of various types of concrete block.
I found doing an extreme toe-in reduces the reverb and early reflections, even with wall panels placed as needed. And that is especially true with the PT800s cos of the wave guides producing a wider sweet spot, and thus more early reflections.
One thing positive about concrete rooms is the bass is really tight. Right now the sound is almost as good as it was for the 12 years I was setup in the LR I built in '97, with audio as the main concern.

4313B
05-11-2012, 07:32 AM
How long are you going to be in Ecuador?? You were in Reno right?

jblsound
05-11-2012, 08:19 AM
How long are you going to be in Ecuador?? You were in Reno right?
Unless I get the urge to move somewhere else, I'll be in Ecuador until the end. I lived in NV for 38 years, 24 of those between Carson City and Lake Tahoe, 40 miles south of Reno.

It never gets colder than about 45*, or hotter than 80*. In NV I saw temps from -25*~140*, I don't miss those extremes at all. lol
We even have a JBL Pro shop here in Cuenca, that sells JBL/Harman consumer. Unfortunately, I don't like the latest HK AVRs. Although I did buy a HK 3390 from the guy. If I ever wanted a pair of Salon2, he can get those, too.

hjames
05-11-2012, 08:21 AM
Unless I get the urge to move somewhere else, I'll be in Ecuador until the end. I lived in NV for 38 years, 24 of those between Carson City and Lake Tahoe, 40 miles south of Reno.

It never gets colder than about 45*, or hotter than 80*. In NV I saw temps from -25*~140*, I don't miss those extremes at all. lol
We even have a JBL Pro shop here in Cuenca, that sells JBL/Harman consumer. Unfortunately, I don't like the latest HK AVRs. Although I did buy a HK 3390 from the guy. If I ever wanted a pair of Salon2, he can get those, too.

Temps sound great - I gather the dollar holds its value pretty well there?

And they are reasonably friendly to expats?

jblsound
05-11-2012, 08:49 AM
Temps sound great - I gather the dollar holds its value pretty well there?

And they are reasonably friendly to expats?
There are quite a few expats here, especially in Cuenca. It really goes a long way to know Spanish or at least put forth the effort when talking to the locals, many know English but will not speak it if you don't at least try to speak Spanish.
The dollar goes farther here for housing and fresh fruits/vegies/meats. Shopping the Indigenous Mercados is the way to eat cheap.
But there is a high import tax on all imports. Now we have a place called Costo, a small version of Costco.

JBLAddict
05-12-2012, 08:36 AM
finally added an AVA7 to the PS 5.1 system and am back into audio bliss :spin:

I didn't realize how much my HK AVR was straining to power the system until getting this unit installed, wasn't fair to speakers to be starving them so long.

"The ..high-end Performance Series is the ultimate expression of JBL's commitment to bring pro quality sound to the consumer market, and gives home listeners the means to create multichannel home theatre and music systems of extraordinary sonic caliber. They are designed to achieve clear, detailed, and dynamic reproduction of ..... 5.1-channel soundtracks and other demanding program material, even at ""real-life"" listening levels."

I know what you mean brother......;)

(the blue light and "Performance" moniker on the face don't hurt either) :p

Titanium Dome
05-12-2012, 01:50 PM
finally added an AVA7 to the PS 5.1 system and am back into audio bliss :spin:


"The ..high-end Performance Series is the ultimate expression of JBL's commitment to bring pro quality sound to the consumer market, and gives home listeners the means to create multichannel home theatre and music systems of extraordinary sonic caliber. They are designed to achieve clear, detailed, and dynamic reproduction of ..... 5.1-channel soundtracks and other demanding program material, even at ""real-life"" listening levels."

I know what you mean brother......;)

(the blue light and "Performance" moniker on the face don't hurt either) :p

Congratulations! As you've discovered, if you treat it right it gives back big time. I've never regretted my AVA-7, which is a well-designed amp manufactured by a top notch company, ATI.

At the LA Home Theater Group meets, the Performance Series is always the popular vote favorite, even over the Synthesis® One Array and K2s. (Well, that and the PT250 Frankensteins downstairs, which are full of Performance Series Drivers anyway. ;) ) Of course, a lot of these guys are handicapped by the systems they typically hear, and the Performance Series is so accessible, easy to listen to, and non fatiguing that it immediately grabs them. Being multichannel helps, too as a lot of them are also truncated in their spatial development by listening to too damn much flat stereo music on boxy systems. Our last meet was a three way visit to two other homes before ending here. The place before mine has one of the nicest looking rooms I've ever been in, and it sounds pretty good, too, and the combination gives an impression of near perfection. You've been in my Two Jims Theatre, so you know looks is not a huge contributor to the overall experience. After being in the Two Jims and then hearing the Performance Series (with admittedly a gorgeous view out the deckside glass), a guest blurted out, "When I was at xxxx's, I felt like I was in a box; when I was in your Two Jims, I felt like I was in an acoustically perfect great hall; and now I feel like everything has faded away and I'm in the music." Lots of grunts and mumbled assertions followed from other members agreeing with the thesis. I was thinking S#!t in the best possible way in my mind, and said something intelligent like, "Uh, well... thanks!"

Someone asked about the AV2 and AVA-7 combo, and when I told him it was 125W/ch, he was a bit disappointed. "It sounds much more powerful. Are you sure?" Yep, I'm sure. I went on to tell him the main amps in the Synthesis® set up (also ATI-manufactured) were only 160W/ch, and he didn't know what to say except, "Really?" Yes, really. He went on to say his name brand AVR was rated at 200W/ch, and it always sounded like it was straining, so he got a popular Internet direct amp that claimed 300W/ch (not an Outlaw, BTW) and thought he had finally found the power and perfection he needed. Now he was forced to reconsider it all. "It doesn't compare to this." To him the AVA-7 and Performance Series speakers were simply effortless.

Of course there are all kinds of things he would need to consider, like speaker sensitivity, room characteristics, capacity of the transformer(s), how manufacturers use different means to measure power output, etc., etc., and it was just too much work to get into it with him. I was hoping he'd ask Sanjay or someone who loves to discuss this in detail when they were in the room.

Anyway, I can imagine how happy you are and how each step takes you closer to a true "system" in the Harman/JBL sense of the term.

-----------------------------

Just to clarify a single point above: not everyone prefers the Performance Series to the K2 S9900s or the Synthesis® One Array, but it is by far the popular choice. As for which I prefer, you'd have to check with me on any given day at any given time, because my answer will be different each time.

JBLAddict
05-12-2012, 09:57 PM
Thanks, if I hadn't had the opportunity to hear your PS setup several times alongside a bunch of other greats, there's no way I would have ever made the investment! Each return home had me realizing how much was to be gained displacing all the time, money, and effort I put into the L-Series. Getting the amp was the latest, but I won't say last step on the journey.

Appreciate your invaluable advice and auditioning opportunities :applaud:


Congratulations! As you've discovered, if you treat it right it gives back big time. I've never regretted my AVA-7, which is a well-dseigned amp manufactured by a top notch company, ATI.

At the LA Home Theater Group meets, the Performance Series is always the popular vote favorite, even over the Synthesis® One Array and K2s. (Well, that and the PT250 Frankensteins downstairs, which are full of Performance Series Drivers anyway. ;) ) Of course, a lot of these guys are handicapped by the systems they typically hear, and the Performance Series is so accessible, easy to listen to, and non fatiguing that it immediately grabs them. Being multichannel helps, too..

Someone asked about the AV2 and AVA-7 combo, and when I told him it was 125W/ch, he was a bit disappointed. "It sounds much more powerful. Are you sure?" Yep, I'm sure. I went on to tell him the main amps in the Synthesis® set up (also ATI-manufactured) were only 160W/ch, and he didn't know what to say except, "Really?" Yes, really. He went on to say his name brand AVR was rated at 200W/ch, and it always sounded like it was straining, so he got a popular Internet direct amp that claimed 300W/ch (not an Outlaw, BTW) and thought he had finally found the power and perfection he needed. Now he was forced to reconsider it all. "It doesn't compare to this." To him the AVA-7 and Performance Series speakers were simply effortless.

Anyway, I can imagine how happy you are and how each step takes you closer to a true "system" in the Harman/JBL sense of the term.

jblsound
05-13-2012, 04:37 AM
finally added an AVA7 to the PS 5.1 system and am back into audio bliss :spin:

I didn't realize how much my HK AVR was straining to power the system until getting this unit installed, wasn't fair to speakers to be starving them so long.

:p
Right now I'm only driving a stereo setup (P7 7channel pre-amp is down). So I've been using a HK 3390 receiver, with & w/o the Citation 19 power amp. I can not tell any difference between the two. There is only a 20w rated difference. But I know the 19 amp has huge caps in its power supply. Now if either was a 5~7 channel amp, might be a problem, as they are 80, 100w.
But in stereo, neither one seems to strain driving the PT800s. If I was running a pair of Salon2 which are only 86db, most likely there would be a problem.

rpatt
05-14-2012, 05:02 AM
What's a fair price for a used AVA-7? There's one on ebay for $1500.00.

Titanium Dome
05-14-2012, 11:08 AM
What's a fair price for a used AVA-7? There's one on ebay for $1500.00.

For a used unit, that seems high. I'm not saying it isn't worth it, but I've seen very nice used units for a lot less. I mean many hundreds less.

JBLAddict
05-14-2012, 11:54 AM
Right now I'm only driving a stereo setup (P7 7channel pre-amp is down). So I've been using a HK 3390 receiver, with & w/o the Citation 19 power amp. I can not tell any difference between the two. There is only a 20w rated difference. But I know the 19 amp has huge caps in its power supply. Now if either was a 5~7 channel amp, might be a problem, as they are 80, 100w.
But in stereo, neither one seems to strain driving the PT800s. If I was running a pair of Salon2 which are only 86db, most likely there would be a problem.

I have a HK AVR354 (75WpC x 7) that cost $700 new, made in china, consisting of the various s/w, Cirrus DACs, processors, connectors galore, and so on; one can only expect the amps to be so good for that money.

It's not that it doesn't sound good, don't get me wrong there, and I was excited at the prospect of the >80-130Hz demands of 5 PS speakers not requiring external amplification. Though as might be expected, when running HT and MCH music at elevated volume I felt I could get more from a high-Performance MCH amp that comes with the speaker system, retailed for 3x the price of the all inclusive AVR, and weighs 20lbs more.

The results in IMO bear that out. I'm using the analog outs from my Oppo 83SE into the AVR analog bypass, so I can compare the gains needed to hit similar volume. The AVA generates approximately the same output with 10dB less gain, and really cranking it, the sound remains strong, pure, undistorted, unlike the AVR. I also had reservations spending so much on "125W vs. 75W" but in discussing with some members the differences would go beyond those simple specs...so far the sound agrees. IIRC, the 3390 is designed for performance stereo, and "might" be a better performer in that area compared to HK's AVR lineup?

oh, who am I kidding? I have a JBL addiction and could not stop myself from buying another piece of gear with JBL-badged gear, regardless of any perceived audible difference :p

jblsound
05-14-2012, 12:05 PM
One thing about the 3390, despite its low price, it does have pre outs. You won't find those on any HK AVR of the last two series, except the 3600. That is only 1 of 6 AVRs. My old HK 635 had it all over the current HK AVRs.
Now for multi-channel, for the last 10 years I've been using a Parasound HCA2205A. Plenty of power there.

Pabueno
05-20-2012, 09:43 PM
Hello! I'm fairly new to hometheater. I own a performance series (4 pt800, 1 pc600, 2 ps1400, av1, ava7! What is the best way to calibrate/eq this system? I tried an spl meter but i can never achieve great imaging from my speakers. I love the sound from this system but it doesnt flow like in the movie theaters. Is there some software that can be used through a pc with mics to measure room acoustics? Or is it better to just get a processor with audyssey to get a more accurate sound? Any advice will be appriciated!

Slare
05-20-2012, 11:41 PM
For HT calibration I've been very happy with Audyssey XT or above. Imho it's the best AVR software tool from the common brands.

H/K's EZ set is pretty terrible.

If one has simple needs a Denon 1712 box comes with XT and can be had for less than $300, if you have a smaller room or just generally don't care to listen that loud, the PS will let you get away with the weaker amplifiers in that box, which is probably an honest 100wpc into stereo and down around 60-70 in 5ch.

If you do have a big room, the PS units will take most of what a real ~250wpc amplifier would throw at them, in which case a good middle compromise is a Audyssey XT equipped AVR that has pre-amp ouputs and adding some level of amplification, though most AVR's with XT and pre-outs start to get into the ~$600 range street.

There are lots of arguments about this on all levels, all I can say is that I am perfectly happy with my 5 channel PS setup being driven by a solid AVR. Though I can see a very valid argument in adding a separate 2 or 3 channel amplifier running a 5+ channel PS system in a larger room. My ears are not picky enough to pick up on the differences only from an amplifier unless one in the comparison is underpowered or otherwise pushed into clipping, and because of that I think once a minimum acceptable power level / headroom level is met, the quality of the calibration tools and usability come into play.

While the power is nice I think people tend to get caught up in it for demo capability. A true 100wpc setup with the PS gear would be enough to leave my ears ringing after a movie at full tilt. They just don't need that much power with the powered bottom end.

This is one of the nicer advantages moving from L7's. Those things really needed solid power to wake up.

rpatt
05-21-2012, 01:34 AM
Since you already have a multichannel amp (AVA7), all you would need is an AVR, with Audyssey XT or XT32, and pre-outs. Or you can go with a pre-pro with Audyssey XT or XT32 if you have a higher budget.

jblsound
05-21-2012, 05:20 AM
Hello! I'm fairly new to hometheater. I own a performance series (4 pt800, 1 pc600, 2 ps1400, av1, ava7! What is the best way to calibrate/eq this system? I tried an spl meter but i can never achieve great imaging from my speakers. I love the sound from this system but it doesnt flow like in the movie theaters. Is there some software that can be used through a pc with mics to measure room acoustics? Or is it better to just get a processor with audyssey to get a more accurate sound? Any advice will be appriciated!

Imaging/soundstage is all about placement. Where I just moved to, it took me most of 3 months before I found the right spots for the L/R mains and in my case, I ended up separating my subs from the PT800s. Using Audyssey or any other auto/eq has nothing to do with imaging. The more room you can provide for the PT800s, the better. Some rooms are much easier than others when it comes to audio.

rdgrimes
05-21-2012, 06:18 AM
Hello! I'm fairly new to hometheater. I own a performance series (4 pt800, 1 pc600, 2 ps1400, av1, ava7! What is the best way to calibrate/eq this system? I tried an spl meter but i can never achieve great imaging from my speakers. I love the sound from this system but it doesnt flow like in the movie theaters. Is there some software that can be used through a pc with mics to measure room acoustics? Or is it better to just get a processor with audyssey to get a more accurate sound? Any advice will be appriciated!

It's about the room first. No question that a processor is the path of least resistance, but even that doesn't cure room issues. Reflections are your biggest impediment. Placement, room treatments, etc are the place to start. A processor will solve issues with distance and EQ.

jblsound
05-21-2012, 08:20 PM
Tonight for the first time in years, I decided to listen to mono LPs through a single channel. And for the first time I decided to drive the single PT800 with the Citation 19 in bridge mode. So that is the first time I've ever had a PT800 connected to a 400w amp.
But I certainly got nowhere near max. lol
Mono recordings I think sound better through a single speaker, no comb filtering. And considering the 3 LPs are dated back to the '50s, varied SQ. Some of the Buddy Holly cuts were less than I remember, really low volume. The Rick Nelson and Chuck Berry LPs were more consistent.
I would not mind finding another Citation 19 and run mono blocks for the mains, and let the 220w Parasound drive the rest of the PT800s.

rdgrimes
05-21-2012, 10:00 PM
So that is the first time I've ever had a PT800 connected to a 400w amp.
But I certainly got nowhere near max. lol


I've been using a 400W x5 Sunfire for a few years. The difference between that and 200W is VERY small, but here's it with stacks and the 130Hz crossover.
I also disagree about mono, it sounds a lot better through 2 stacks than through one.

rpatt
05-22-2012, 03:38 AM
Here's a review you may not have come across. Translated with Google.

http://www.gzhifi.com/audio/20084454.html

Current Category: Industry News 2008-08-20 Post has been read: 804 times hot spots: Audio Product Library Audio Forum

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JBL is a famous name in the Hi-Fi world. In addition to the fans burn smoke, many theaters, recording studios use the JBL Studio Monitor as a monitor speaker, which shows the JBL that is unique.

With the advances in recording technology, many of the Audiophile SACD or DVD-Audio format, fans also sound speaker replay these Tiandie, a corresponding increase in For this reason, JBL decided to introduce a set of both perfect replay music, but also give full play to the movie sound all-round speaker.

In this extremely harsh under the premise of the JBL engineer by heart, and great care, and finally developed a landmark speaker system - the Performance the Series.

The JBL Performance Series systems with superior flexibility. Can put it as a traditional two-channel speaker, you can also add more than a few speakers, 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 multi-channel surround sound speaker system.



Performance the Series, including the PT800 bookshelf speakers, the PC600 center channel speaker and the PS1400 subwoofer. Users according to their needs, the combination of speakers from the three models a set of speaker system.

Like traditional two-channel music enthusiasts can purchase a pair of PT800 install PS1400 speaker, will become a mighty extremely super speaker. Like to play multi-channel surround sound system enthusiasts, you can buy three pairs of PT800, PC600 and a PS1400, composed of a seven-speaker system.

JBL dropped a lot of manpower and resources in the Performance the Series. All treble, midrange unit are pure titanium (Titanium) and expensive Neodymium magnets. The advantages of titanium is sturdy texture and light, issued by the lightning-fast high-frequency. PT800 woofer with titanium, on the one hand, you can send a deep bass, the other hand, can catch up with the speed of titanium alt unit.

PS1400 subwoofer is the product of the sumo Hercules-class dinosaur. PS1400 14-inch the "Aquaplas" woofer voice coil (Voice Coil) edge of the bracket 4 inch thick, it is extremely exaggerated. Heavyweight bracket and specially developed Aquaplas audio disc, plus the hydraulic 400W built-in microphone, the PS1400 can be issued suffocating but rich analytical and fast transient bass.

The JBL the Performance Series speaker system has arrived in Singapore. Whether you want to replace the speaker, you should go to the distributor of the audition room, insight and experience the power of the new generation of JBL speakers.

jblsound
05-22-2012, 04:47 AM
I've been using a 400W x5 Sunfire for a few years. The difference between that and 200W is VERY small, but here's it with stacks and the 130Hz crossover.
I also disagree about mono, it sounds a lot better through 2 stacks than through one.

As I said, I was nowhere near max output, even with only one speaker playing, it was plenty loud. At the level I was playing last night was in the range I usually listen to, no matter what amp I am using. Recently I've been switching amps in/out of the system (HK3390, Citation 19, Parasound 2205A) without driving the 3390 to clipping I can not really tell any difference between the three. I've always thought the HKs, Marantz, Parasound all had the same sound. It was the old Yamaha ('79) that has a harsh sound in comparison.

Of coarse, being the PT800s are rated at 91db, it does not take much to drive them, especially in a live room. If this were a completely dead room (good luck trying to find one here), running Salon2 with their 86db, that 400w would be a needed power.

As for the XO setting, been experimenting with that too. When I had the PT800s mounted to the SUB1500s, I was using XO @125. So after I decided to stack the subs behind the brick column, which is the centerline point of the layout, I left the XO @ 125. Despite what JBL manual say about using 80 for all other setups, I find using the 125 to be better. I never liked that the PT800 was -6db @ 80, compared to the L212's -3db @ 70. I understand why the PT800 is -6db as @ 130 it is -3db, assuming, to integrate with the PS1400.

4313B
05-22-2012, 08:07 AM
I never liked that the PT800 was -6db @ 80, compared to the L212's -3db @ 70.They're about the same.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17998&stc=1&d=1157030245

Don C
05-22-2012, 08:15 AM
Sometimes the fans burn smoke and forget to provide labels for their graphs.

jblsound
05-22-2012, 09:31 AM
They're about the same.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=17998&stc=1&d=1157030245
I assume the top graph is the L212. And those graphs being near the same, is not surprising, as I used both in a 7 channel system and could not detect a difference in sound. Between the side PT800s and back L212s.

No wonder they look similar, same speaker!!

4313B
05-22-2012, 09:34 AM
The top graph is the L212 system summed. The bottom graphs are the B212 and L212 side panels separate.

jblsound
05-22-2012, 09:40 AM
The top graph is the L212 system summed. The bottom graphs are the B212 and L212 side panels separate.
The reason I thought the bottom was the PT800, due to it looking close to being -6db @ the XO point. It certainly looks a lot more than -3db, as quoted in the L212 manual.

JBLAddict
05-23-2012, 10:40 AM
finally added an AVA7 to the PS 5.1 system

since I'm using my HK AVR preouts, there's no trigger to the amp. Is there any harm other than some minor current draw leaving it on all the time so I can just turn on the AVR?

jblsound
05-23-2012, 11:25 AM
since I'm using my HK AVR preouts, there's no trigger to the amp. Is there any harm other than some minor current draw leaving it on all the time so I can just turn on the AVR?
Well, you can leave it on, I don't know what the idle current is.
My Parasound HCA2205A draws 1500 amps, so I always turn it off.

rdgrimes
05-23-2012, 11:27 AM
since I'm using my HK AVR preouts, there's no trigger to the amp. Is there any harm other than some minor current draw leaving it on all the time so I can just turn on the AVR?

No harm done, in fact there's credible evidence that such electronics prefer to stay on 24/7. However you can also use one of the available power strips with "master-slave" configuration to control power. Just be sure it has adequate load rating.

JBLAddict
05-23-2012, 04:57 PM
Well, you can leave it on, I don't know what the idle current is.
My Parasound HCA2205A draws 1500 amps, so I always turn it off.


No harm done, in fact there's credible evidence that such electronics prefer to stay on 24/7. However you can also use one of the available power strips with "master-slave" configuration to control power. Just be sure it has adequate load rating.

1500 amps when not in use? I don't quite understand how that would be or if that's true of all amps including mine?

I keep my PS1400 on full time since the triggers don't perform very well IME, and I had read here about the value of staying continually "on"

Mr. Widget
05-23-2012, 05:16 PM
1500 amps is about the full load of 10-15 average households. :D

1500 watts is more like it and that is under full output with the current draw reduced significantly at lower power. Many amps will have their idle power listed.


Widget

jblsound
05-23-2012, 05:56 PM
1500 amps is about the full load of 10-15 average households. :D

1500 watts is more like it and that is under full output with the current draw reduced significantly at lower power. Many amps will have their idle power listed.


Widget
Yep Widget, MY BAD. I MEANT 1500 WATTS.:o: But being that amp was made back in '98~'99 it does not show idle power. But the newer Halo A51 shows 3000w>4u; 25w idle.

I was just looking at the new ('12) A31, 3 channel amp. 1800w; only 1w idle!

JBLAddict
05-23-2012, 06:18 PM
Many amps will have their idle power listed.



do you know where this can be found for the AVA7?

jblsound
05-23-2012, 06:30 PM
do you know where this can be found for the AVA7?
I was looking earlier, as I was reading your post. I could not find anything but full power.

rdgrimes
05-23-2012, 09:43 PM
do you know where this can be found for the AVA7?

If you're really curious, get one of those meters for measuring watts.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

With no input, most amps will use just the amount of power that gets converted to heat.

JBLAddict
05-23-2012, 10:48 PM
With no input, most amps will use just the amount of power that gets converted to heat.

thanks, that's good enough for me...

rdgrimes
05-26-2012, 08:10 AM
If you're really curious, get one of those meters for measuring watts.

http://www.amazon.com/P3-International-P4400-Electricity-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

With no input, most amps will use just the amount of power that gets converted to heat.

I decided to splurge and get one of the Killawatt meters. Kind of fun to play with. At idle, a PS1400 uses 29W. My Sunfire 400x5 amp uses about 40W when it's on with no input. It's also surprising how little juice is used in normal listening.

The meter also keeps a total tally of K-Watt hrs used over time, so you can calculate what you're spending on juice.

jblsound
05-26-2012, 09:07 AM
I decided to splurge and get one of the Killawatt meters. Kind of fun to play with. At idle, a PS1400 uses 29W. My Sunfire 400x5 amp uses about 40W when it's on with no input. It's also surprising how little juice is used in normal listening.

The meter also keeps a total tally of K-Watt hrs used over time, so you can calculate what you're spending on juice.

What are those Sunfire amps rated @ full power? My HCA2205A is 1500w full power. 1100w of that is output to the speakers.

rdgrimes
05-26-2012, 09:48 AM
What are those Sunfire amps rated @ full power? My HCA2205A is 1500w full power. 1100w of that is output to the speakers.

This model is 405WPC x5 into 8u 20-20K. 810 WPC into 4u at clipping. It has a 15 amp fuse. It's also rated to 1600 WPC into 2u with a "time limited" stipulation.

I did some more testing with the meter. Running the Sunfire and 2x PS1400 through the meter. Playing the 5.1 SACD of Brothers In Arms (Dire Straits) at 0db I saw around 250W total usage (bouncing from 150-300). At -10db it dropped to 150 and at normal listening level (-15db) it's real close to 100W. Of course that is not any reflection of peak power, just "RMS".

pathfindermwd
10-18-2012, 06:52 PM
For awhile now I've been wondering how the PT800's would sound if the LE14H3's were in a bigger enclosure. To satisfy my curiosity and see if it would be worth actually building (or having them built) new sub cabs, I decided to use my trusty 240ti's as ready made -tuned enclosures; nice that they were already sitting next to the stacks.

I finally worked up the energy to explore this. I transplant the LE14H3's into the 240 cabs, and jump the speaker wires from the PS1400 into the bass port of the 240's.

But, tragedy struck!!

After 5 minutes of TRULY AWESOME sound I notice some extreme woofer movement on the right and taking a closer look I see the surround of my very new LE14H3 flapping in the wind...so to speak.

After promptly shutting it down and examining the situation, I find that over half of the rubber surround has come completely off of the basket. Party Over!

The next day, I check the surround again. Did I push the woofer too hard? None of the paint of the basket came off with the glue, the rubber surround is pristine and undamaged. But even more telling is that when GENTLY pulling on the surround that is still attached, it peels right off with a brittle crackling. Ive re-coned LE14H1's and I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen! No problem with the other woofer either.



First, I wanted to bring this to the forums attention because this might be a problem for others. The PS1400 has a "purdy ring" screwed down atop the LE14H3, with an edge that sits right atop the LE14H3's rubber surround. If I hadn't taken it off, I doubt I would have ever realized this problem. Could the glue have been broken and the woofer been leaking air before I removed it? It's possible...

Second, has anyone had this happen with their LE14H3's? Has anyone dealt with JBL on an issue like this? I bought the PS1400's new earlier this year.

Third, if I don't get any love from JBL, anyone know if the surround glue for the rubber surround is the same as for the foam one's? It was still playing when it shut down, but I am worried about VC damage, though I think it's probably fine; don't hear any rubbing. If they use the same glue for the spider maybe I should check it too...

Titanium Dome
10-18-2012, 09:47 PM
That is bizarre. So far I'm happy to report no such occurrence.

rdgrimes
10-18-2012, 09:52 PM
If not the trim ring, what IS holding that surround down? Is there no gasket on there? Perhaps the trim ring is for more than just looks?

pathfindermwd
10-18-2012, 10:39 PM
That is bizarre. So far I'm happy to report no such occurrence.

My life must be bizarre, things like this happen quite often it seems..



If not the trim ring, what IS holding that surround down? Is there no gasket on there? Perhaps the trim ring is for more than just looks?

I have it on good authority that the ring does nothing. The ring only sits softly on the edge, it leaves no imprint on the rubber, but it may not need much pressure to provide a measure of reinforcement. Just as with the LE14H1, only the glue holds the surround in place.

The LE14H1 has a plastic ring glued around the edge but it just hides the edge of the foam.

It's always amazed me how narrow they made the edge of the surround of this driver. When it's done right though, they last for years of abuse.

rdgrimes
10-19-2012, 06:05 AM
The LE14H1 has a plastic ring glued around the edge but it just hides the edge of the foam.



The LE10H uses the same ring, as do others. In spite of its appearance it does function as a gasket.

Titanium Dome
10-19-2012, 07:56 AM
My life must be bizarre, things like this happen quite often it seems..I have it on good authority that the ring does nothing. The ring only sits softly on the edge, it leaves no imprint on the rubber, but it may not need much pressure to provide a measure of reinforcement. Just as with the LE14H1, only the glue holds the surround in place..I've used the LE14H-3 with and without the trim ring numerous times, including months in the PT250 set up with no apparent ill effects. That reinforces the idea that the rings themselves are not needed. Besides, there's no ring on the 1400 Array's LE14H-3.

As for the bizarreness of your life, I have no comment. ;)

4313B
10-19-2012, 07:56 AM
Second, has anyone had this happen with their LE14H3's?Yeah, it's happened on some 1200FE's and 1500AL's too. Damn rubber surrounds...

pathfindermwd
10-19-2012, 10:23 AM
The LE10H uses the same ring, as do others. In spite of its appearance it does function as a gasket.

Yeah, its possible it's like a second line of defense to keep the surround from leaking air or coming off during high excursions. If I lay the PS1400 on it's back, install the H3 into it, with the ring, making sure it's VC is not rubbing, would the ring hold down the edge sufficiently to play without observing the damage? I think it would. Even light pressure of a few psi over the circumference of the surround could be quite effective. If your PS1400/H3 had such an issue you may never know.



I've used the LE14H-3 with and without the trim ring numerous times, including months in the PT250 set up with no apparent ill effects. That reinforces the idea that the rings themselves are not needed. Besides, there's no ring on the 1400 Array's LE14H-3.

As for the bizarreness of your life, I have no comment. ;)

Does a LE14H3 like in the Array come with that plastic ring like the one's used on the H1? I haven't seen one non-performance series yet.

I'm just feeling a little riddled with problems this month. Doesn't matter if what I have is new or old, expensive or inexpensive, they all seem to be having issues. Fixing can be fun to a point but it can get very annoying.




Yeah, it's happened on some 1200FE's and 1500AL's too. Damn rubber surrounds...

Ah, good! Im not alone! !! 4313B, not sure I can blame it on the rubber though, the glue adhered fine to it, it didn't stick to the basket though. The other H3 looks to have a bit of off-white glue showing around the edge, maybe they used something different on it. Once I did a recone and soon after the spider came off. Enough pressure had not been applied to the spider to adhere it to the basket (no pressure perhaps). That looks like this situation. Come to think of it, that's probably all it is, just lack of pressure to bond the glue to the basket, rather than a defective glue product or fault of the rubber. If so, that explains alot and there is alot less to worry about for everyone.

rdgrimes
10-19-2012, 12:17 PM
I'll prophesize that the glue is only as good as the person using it. Assuming these drivers were assembled by hand.

The H-3 rubber surround has a flange on its outer edge that should contact the flange of the basket, so it would have glue contacting both the back side and the outer edge of the surround and basket. So that rubber flange is doing the job that a gasket would.

4313B
10-19-2012, 12:22 PM
not sure I can blame it on the rubber thoughI blame everything on the surrounds, whether or not they are lans-a-loy requiring brake fluid, foam requiring a re-foam, cloth requiring a re-doping, :blah::blah::blah:

;)

pathfindermwd
10-19-2012, 05:36 PM
I'll prophesize that the glue is only as good as the person using it. Assuming these drivers were assembled by hand.

The H-3 rubber surround has a flange on its outer edge that should contact the flange of the basket, so it would have glue contacting both the back side and the outer edge of the surround and basket. So that rubber flange is doing the job that a gasket would.

That explains even more, no glue on the flange here... at all! Only a thin line on the bottom, not even as wide as the rubber in some places.

pathfindermwd
10-19-2012, 05:40 PM
I blame everything on the surrounds, whether or not they are lans-a-loy requiring brake fluid, foam requiring a re-foam, cloth requiring a re-doping, :blah::blah::blah:

;)

Yep! Damn surrounds! :)

I expected you to blame it on cheap foreign labor.. :D

Mr. Widget
10-19-2012, 05:46 PM
I expected you to blame it on cheap foreign labor.. :DWell, you could, but you'd be wrong. The PS1400s were built a decade ago in Northridge. :D

Have you tried contacting JBL yet? I'm sure they will take care of you.


Widget

pathfindermwd
10-19-2012, 06:03 PM
Well, you could, but you'd be wrong. The PS1400s were built a decade ago in Northridge. :D

Have you tried contacting JBL yet? I'm sure they will take care of you.


Widget

My New PS1400 was built a decade ago? So it's NOS?



Worked got hectic but I'll call them on Monday.

Mr. Widget
10-19-2012, 06:11 PM
My New PS1400 was built a decade ago? So it's NOS?
I guess it would depend on your definition of NOS... I doubt JBL considered them NOS, but they built a ton of this stuff and it never sold, so they finally blew it all out. The last time I checked they had a handful of PS1400s left and (2) B stock PT800s left in mismatched finishes.


Widget

pathfindermwd
10-19-2012, 06:23 PM
I guess it would depend on your definition of NOS... I doubt JBL considered them NOS, but they built a ton of this stuff and it never sold, so they finally blew it all out. The last time I checked they had a handful of PS1400s left and (2) B stock PT800s left in mismatched finishes.


Widget

So they're like... Vintage? Good thing they have rubber surrounds or they might have needed re-foamed by the time I got them. :D


Anyone know if the PT800's tweeter has foam under the dome's? :p

4313B
10-20-2012, 07:14 AM
Anyone know if the PT800's tweeter has foam under the dome's? :pJBL sourced those from Audax, ask them.
I expected you to blame it on cheap foreign labor.. :DCheap foreign labor isn't the problem, the people exploiting them are.
I'll prophesize that the glue is only as good as the person using it. Assuming these drivers were assembled by hand.

The H-3 rubber surround has a flange on its outer edge that should contact the flange of the basket, so it would have glue contacting both the back side and the outer edge of the surround and basket. So that rubber flange is doing the job that a gasket would.


That explains even more, no glue on the flange here... at all! Only a thin line on the bottom, not even as wide as the rubber in some places.Sounds to me like you've figured it out. There should be enough glue without it squirting out the edges. Oftentimes people will use too little for fear of using too much. Also, as the designer has stated, the surfaces need to be prepped. If it's oily, there will be failures. I specifically remember one LE14H-3 with that problem. The underside of the surround lip was slippery, like oil or silicone had gotten on it prior to installation.

pathfindermwd
10-21-2012, 10:17 AM
JBL sourced those from Audax, ask them.Cheap foreign labor isn't the problem, the people exploiting them are.

Sounds to me like you've figured it out. There should be enough glue without it squirting out the edges. Oftentimes people will use too little for fear of using too much. Also, as the designer has stated, the surfaces need to be prepped. If it's oily, there will be failures. I specifically remember one LE14H-3 with that problem. The underside of the surround lip was slippery, like oil or silicone had gotten on it prior to installation.


Yep, I do believe I understand what happened. It's frustrating to think that I could just glue down the surround in about an hour instead of the hassle of shipping them off. The more I have to deal with this the more it chaps my a** for some reason I don't quite understand. I've fixed nearly all of my speakers in one way or another but this one just makes me mad.

I'll post back on the warranty process.

rdgrimes
11-04-2012, 07:44 AM
Woke up this morning to a bad smell emanating from the HT room. Then I noticed that there were no green snake eyes on one PS1400. :(
I leave the PS1400 on 24/7, looks like one of them lost its power supply. The plate is still warm to touch, just no power.

Need a new plate amp or an entire unit if anyone can help out.

pathfindermwd
11-04-2012, 09:07 AM
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/product_detail.asp?urlMaterialNumber=NPS1400BLK&status=


Good deal here on Harman's Clearance. You could buy the unit and either keep a spare box/driver or sell the driver on ebay for close to the purchase price.

rdgrimes
11-04-2012, 09:19 AM
Those are tempting to be sure but I think I could do better and am not afraid of used gear. Hopefully those won't vanish too quickly.

Titanium Dome
11-04-2012, 10:00 AM
Those are tempting to be sure but I think I could do better and am not afraid of used gear. Hopefully those won't vanish too quickly.

They've been there for a while, so I think you've got some time. Now the refurbs for $309 each shipped--those went fast!!

rdgrimes
11-04-2012, 10:57 AM
There were a couple NIB that went for $400 on eBay in recent weeks, should have jumped. :(

I actually have a PS1400 plate amp that I got off eBay for $20 a while ago, I assume its dead but have no way to try it other than installing it.

This is a perfect excuse to fire up my L250s for a while and pop the hood on the PS1400.

Mr. Widget
11-04-2012, 11:48 AM
At the beginning of the year they had 30-40 in both cherry and beech, and about 200 in black ash. On the list last month they only had black ash left and they were down to the last 30-40 of those. They will all be gone one of these days... but considering how misunderstood the Performance Series is, it is hard to say how long it will take to find homes for these last speakers.

FYI: They still have well over 100 of the PC600 center channel speakers too.


Widget

rdgrimes
11-04-2012, 03:10 PM
P - U What a stink!

Fuse is blown too. The green and black wires are the output to the woofer, so this looks like the amp burned, not the power supply. Interesting since it was idling overnight with no input

rpatt
11-04-2012, 08:24 PM
Woke up this morning to a bad smell emanating from the HT room. Then I noticed that there were no green snake eyes on one PS1400. :(
I leave the PS1400 on 24/7, looks like one of them lost its power supply. The plate is still warm to touch, just no power.

Need a new plate amp or an entire unit if anyone can help out.

Sorry to hear that. Did you check with CamMan (on AVS) on the two he has for sale?

JBLAddict
11-10-2012, 06:54 AM
considering how misunderstood the Performance Series is

Widget

from your experience what are the most common misconceptions of the line?

Mr. Widget
11-10-2012, 11:29 AM
from your experience what are the most common misconceptions of the line?Principally that they are actually quite good even though they look like rather average black ash Best Buy fare.


Widget

rdgrimes
11-10-2012, 02:39 PM
Miracles do happen.
The PS1400 plate amp that I bought off eBay last year for $20 ------- works!

Tested both the LF and LFE functions and it's all nominal. It makes big boom-boom.

Best money ever spent on eBay. When they were available, these amps were what - $350?

Still enjoying the heck out of my L250s though, might need to keep them in the HT for a while. Amazing how similar they sound.

rdgrimes
11-10-2012, 02:41 PM
from your experience what are the most common misconceptions of the line?


Principally that they are actually quite good even though they look like rather average black ash Best Buy fare.


Widget

I'd add that the whole thing with docking PT800 and PS1400 was lost on most people, they didn't even know it was possible. JBL never even published a photo of a docked stack. :banghead:

rpatt
11-12-2012, 04:30 AM
I'd add that the whole thing with docking PT800 and PS1400 was lost on most people, they didn't even know it was possible. JBL never even published a photo of a docked stack. :banghead:

Except for this ad.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9186&stc=1&d=1122583165

rdgrimes
11-12-2012, 10:52 AM
Except for this ad.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9186&stc=1&d=1122583165

Thanks for my new avatar. :)

RedCoat23
11-12-2012, 03:25 PM
Just been having a private conversation with rdgrimes over the issue of auto on/off; permanently on; or even manually switched on for the PS1400's. To see if any of these have contributing or mitigating factors to increase the longevity of service in our end-of-line subs...

I've just recently added 4 more of them to my theatre set up and have them currently set to auto on/off. Though, as rdgrimes quite rightly points out, I'm exposing them to thermal stresses every time they turn on/off - and potential current spikes.

My original pair have 18 months of use in the auto on/off mode without issue; so I'm curious for those other forum members how are yours triggered?

Regards...

JBLAddict
11-12-2012, 05:03 PM
Just been having a private conversation with rdgrimes over the issue of auto on/off; permanently on; or even manually switched on for the PS1400's

My original pair have 18 months of use in the auto on/off mode without issue; so I'm curious for those other forum members how are yours triggered?

Regards...

I took the recommendation of rd and widget that leaving them on was least stressful. Plus the auto feature doesn't work well. Im a 14 month owner

rdgrimes
11-12-2012, 05:30 PM
When you think about the environment those PCBs and electronics are in, it's a wonder they work at all. The amp is very well built with heavy steel plates all around, built like a tank. this photo is from the side, with the outside plate on the left. But subs have been self-destructing for many years and will continue to do so. It's a good argument for passive subs.

rpatt
11-12-2012, 06:21 PM
I leave mine on.

rdgrimes
11-12-2012, 09:33 PM
For me it's more a question of function. The auto-on is slow to respond to a signal, and frequently turns off when I don't want it to. Not really sensitive enough I guess.
I'm going to try auto-on for a while but I bet I'll give up in a couple days.

rpatt
11-13-2012, 02:17 AM
Thanks for my new avatar. :)

You're welcome. Here's one from my gallery if you want a clearer one.

http://images3.static-bluray.com/htgallery/96875.jpg

howaboutthat41
11-13-2012, 05:45 PM
I took the recommendation of rd and widget that leaving them on was least stressful. Plus the auto feature doesn't work well. Im a 14 month owner

How warm do they get idling in the always-on setting? I have used the auto on/off setting for mine for a good number of months with no problems, but will switch gladly if there is a good reason, including if it reduces the risk of this kind of melt-down.

rdgrimes
11-13-2012, 09:52 PM
How warm do they get idling in the always-on setting? I have used the auto on/off setting for mine for a good number of months with no problems, but will switch gladly if there is a good reason, including if it reduces the risk of this kind of melt-down.

A certain number of amps will melt down regardless of what you do. They don't get very warm when idling, but do cool off when in standby. Only the output stage is off in standby, which is what cooked in mine. Is it better to keep them warm all the time or reduce the hours on the output stage? 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Mine was on 24/7 for some years before it cooked. No question that using auto-standby is more eco-friendly.

JBLAddict
11-14-2012, 07:13 AM
How warm do they get idling in the always-on setting? I have used the auto on/off setting for mine for a good number of months with no problems, but will switch gladly if there is a good reason, including if it reduces the risk of this kind of melt-down.

just measured the plates on my two units with an IR gun, 85.3F and 85.8F, respectively, after a night being off and in a room at 70F. So slightly warm to the touch in idle, IMO less harm than the cycling of the auto on/off

I work in semiconductor packaging (the housing of the Si and GaAs chips with metals and polymers), and of all the hardcore reliability testing we do, temperature cycling damage usually trumps those caused by continuous operation, FWIW.

plus, for me the trigger sensitivity isn't there, have to crank the volume to get them to respond, and they shut off when I don't want them to, tried that the first few weeks of ownership, then took the recommendation of those here and have been much more satisfied.

rdgrimes
11-18-2012, 07:46 AM
In the interest of completeness:

The amp that cooked has a main PCB marked "rev 03D" and a date of 11-8-2000. I failed to check the new one before installing.

I noted some differences with the one I installed, which has screws holding the plastic box on the back, where the old one had none. They also seem to have different sensitivity in the auto-on circuit and the new one doesn't thump like the old one when it shuts off.

Got the stacks back into the HT. It's still a tough call whether I prefer the L250, they certainly have their strong points. But the stacks still win out due to clarity, dispersion and imaging.

MikeBrewster77
11-18-2012, 09:31 PM
Come to the dark side they said. You've never actually heard the PS's full potential they said.

(Sorry, there are two less of those now in stock) :o:


Those are tempting to be sure but I think I could do better and am not afraid of used gear. Hopefully those won't vanish too quickly.

4313B
11-19-2012, 06:40 AM
While the PS1400 is a cute looking little box the real gem is the LE14H-3. One can do wonders with that transducer when placed in the same volume and tuning as the 250Ti.

4 cubic feet tuned to 28 Hz.
Rockler sells the router bits (~ $140) to build the octagons with interlocking edges.
Use a real amplifier.

Just thought I'd toss that in for those who get bored and like to build stuff. :D

pathfindermwd
11-19-2012, 08:17 AM
While the PS1400 is a cute looking little box the real gem is the LE14H-3. One can do wonders with that transducer when placed in the same volume and tuning as the 250Ti.

4 cubic feet tuned to 28 Hz.
Rockler sells the router bits (~ $140) to build the octagons with interlocking edges.
Use a real amplifier.

Just thought I'd toss that in for those who get bored and like to build stuff. :D

I'm bored... :)

I've been looking at this for awhile. Any ideas on how to double the size of the box and keep it from looking disproportional? Can one safely raise the height of the PT800 without it harming the sound, how much higher might be ok?

Is the distance of the 14" and 8" woofer critical, they have them spread apart pretty significantly.

As i said earlier, I used the 240's as tuned enclosures for the LE14H3 using the PS1400 amp, it sounded really good, with no gain.

What would be a better amp?

4313B
11-19-2012, 08:26 AM
Making boxes deeper is the easiest way to add volume.

The closer the better for the fourteen and the eight.

One would want to keep the high frequency transducer as close to ear level while seated as possible.

Any external amp with good current capability. An inexpensive solution might be one of the Crowns such as what RobH recently purchased for his subs. I'm not a fan of internal amps. I suppose it's a personal thing. I do recognize that they can be convenient.

Titanium Dome
11-19-2012, 11:37 PM
Any external amp with good current capability. I'm not a fan of internal amps. I suppose it's a personal thing. I do recognize that they can be convenient.

...convenient until they don't work and there are no replacements. Thank goodness JBL fixed all four of my PS1400 amps before Northridge went out of business. Now I've got two spares as well, but I'm thankful my big subs are all passive. :yes:

pathfindermwd
11-20-2012, 08:56 AM
Making boxes deeper is the easiest way to add volume.

The closer the better for the fourteen and the eight.

One would want to keep the high frequency transducer as close to ear level while seated as possible.



The gap between the PT800 and PS1400 could be eliminated to get more volume. The LE14H3 would need to be properly positioned to preserve the time alignment, I think. I could be wrong but have thought it would be a bad idea to simply mate the PT800 on top of a square box creating a 90 degree shelf under it, is that correct? Here are a few quick ideas, not to any scale:

Option #1 slope the top of the sub in to the PT800, kind of like a XPL 200

Option #2 Slope the whole sub baffle into the PT800

Option #3 A pyramidal wedge design that would nest the PT800

Thoughts?

grumpy
11-20-2012, 09:21 AM
Plan 3 is an interesting idea and not insanely complicated :) I'd chop off some of the pointy part and make the bass baffle a bit more vertical.

rdgrimes
11-20-2012, 09:43 AM
Question for anyone in the know:

Inside the PS1400, the output for the PT800 dock passes from the amp to a small PCB attached inside the rear baffle. Then that connects to the PT800 posts. Is this a passive 80Hz high-pass filter, or what? If so, then the switch on the amp for "normal or separated" would just be switching in a 130Hz high-pass in addition to the other.

Anyhow, this might be useful for someone wanting to use the PS1400 as a passive box.

pathfindermwd
11-20-2012, 05:49 PM
Plan 3 is an interesting idea and not insanely complicated :) I'd chop off some of the pointy part and make the bass baffle a bit more vertical.

I like the concept too, it goes beyond a box, and is 250-esq. But, keeping in mind the woofer VC position, and getting the shape right is difficult. making it shorter would require a flat top.57503

jblsound
11-20-2012, 07:54 PM
Question for anyone in the know:

Inside the PS1400, the output for the PT800 dock passes from the amp to a small PCB attached inside the rear baffle. Then that connects to the PT800 posts. Is this a passive 80Hz high-pass filter, or what? If so, then the switch on the amp for "normal or separated" would just be switching in a 130Hz high-pass in addition to the other.

Anyhow, this might be useful for someone wanting to use the PS1400 as a passive box.

I would think if the 130 htz hp is in, the 80 hp is out of the circuit. Its one or the other, not both at the same time.

Mr. Widget
11-21-2012, 03:45 AM
I like the concept too, it goes beyond a box, and is 250-esq. But, keeping in mind the woofer VC position, and getting the shape right is difficult. making it shorter would require a flat top.If I was going to build a ground up new system based on the PS Series, I would build a new PT800 section too with it having as narrow a baffle as possible but making the cabinet deeper. You could even make it a trapezoid tapering to the rear.


Widget

jblsound
11-21-2012, 04:14 AM
If I was going to build a ground up new system based on the PS Series, I would build a new PT800 section too with it having as narrow a baffle as possible but making the cabinet deeper. You could even make it a trapezoid tapering to the rear.


Widget
One thing that can NOT be done with the current size PT800 box is install a biased network, as I did in my custom L212. For two reasons;
The PT800 box is smaller, and the caps for the C-C network have to be much bigger than those for the L212.
But I don't see that the PT800 box needs to be narrower. The difference between the L212, PT800 boxes is the L212 box was designed as an infinite baffle for the 066 and LE5-9. Clearly the PT800 box is not that, with the baffle only being 10", compared to the L212 baffle being 16".

And if made deeper, then it can't really be used as a wall mount, if needed. The current PT800 box is already quite a bit narrower than the PS1400, so making it even narrower would really make it look all wrong. Unless of coarse, the entire enclosure was shaped like the 250Ti box.

Mr. Widget
11-21-2012, 04:23 AM
I am not a fan of the shallow and wide cabinet design in general... From years of experience I have found narrower and deeper cabinets to sound better than their wider counterparts.

As for the aesthetic design, a narrow tower sitting within the sub base module as the previous drawings indicated could work.

I'm not saying the PT800 or L212 can't work, but I believe both would sound even better if they had a narrower and deeper design.


Widget

jblsound
11-21-2012, 05:39 AM
I am not a fan of the shallow and wide cabinet design in general... From years of experience I have found narrower and deeper cabinets to sound better than their wider counterparts.

As for the aesthetic design, a narrow tower sitting within the sub base module as the previous drawings indicated could work.

I'm not saying the PT800 or L212 can't work, but I believe both would sound even better if they had a narrower and deeper design.


Widget
I can say in no uncertain terms, changing the L212 array from the centerline to a 2" offset, creating mirror image boxes greatly improves the soundstage. And that is a direct result of the 16" wide box no longer being an infinite baffle.

Anyone who looks at the L212 and the L250, will notice the progression of thought from an engineering/design point of view.
No more infinite baffle, tapered box, bottom to top, rounded corners to eliminate edge diffraction. Which I believe that during the design of the L250, GT came up with the idea of adding open cell foam to the inside of the grille cloth around the 066/LE5-9 in the last runs of the L212 to at least reduce the edge diffraction.
And when I first heard the L250, actually 250Ti by then, I knew I was listening to a much improved speaker.

4313B
11-21-2012, 06:27 AM
Well yeah, one could go with the narrow baffle, deep box design for the PT800 but I'm pretty sure the whole system was meant to look as nice as it sounded. Another one of those form and function things. Plus the PT800 had the mount on the wall option.

If one is going to keep the PT800/PS1400 system forever then build it without all the Sales and Marketing criteria. CC those networks too.

jblsound
11-21-2012, 07:35 AM
Well yeah, one could go with the narrow baffle, deep box design for the PT800 but I'm pretty sure the whole system was meant to look as nice as it sounded. Another one of those form and function things. Plus the PT800 had the mount on the wall option.

If one is going to keep the PT800/PS1400 system forever then build it without all the Sales and Marketing criteria. CC those networks too.
Those C-C networks would either require their own boxes, or the PT800 box would have to be quite a bit bigger.
There was a poster here a few years back, that bought a pair of PS stacks and then built new XOs (not C-C) and placed them in shallow boxes that sat atop the 1400s, behind the PT800s. Of coarse, that would not work for any PT800 mounted to the walls.

I've auditioned a number of deep cabinet speakers that, imo, did not come close to the performance of the PT800s or my custom L212s.
Although, I can hardly call them L212 anymore. Only the original part being the 112A. the others being the 052Ti, 2105, mirror boxes, C-C network.

pathfindermwd
11-23-2012, 12:11 PM
If I was going to build a ground up new system based on the PS Series, I would build a new PT800 section too with it having as narrow a baffle as possible but making the cabinet deeper. You could even make it a trapezoid tapering to the rear.


Widget

Not at home with measurements but if memory serves I think the pt800 face is just over the 8" width. With the cambered angles the overall width is increased. Are you implying that those angled faces continue to contribute to the baffle?

jblsound
11-23-2012, 02:42 PM
Not at home with measurements but if memory serves I think the pt800 face is just over the 8" width. With the cambered angles the overall width is increased. Are you implying that those angled faces continue to contribute to the baffle?

The baffle is 10" wide, from chamfer to chamfer. Those angled corners do two things. First the non-rectangle shape is suppose to reduce standing waves in the box. Second, the angled corners should reduce edge diffraction.
If one were to cut off those chamfers making the box 10" wide and also deeper, creating 90* corners then you bring back the edge diffraction.
Unless the corners were bull nosed.

rdgrimes
11-23-2012, 03:13 PM
Keeping in mind that wall and corner mounting were part of the design intention, it's very nearly a perfect design for its intended purposes. The flexibility of using it for surround and front duty is worth far more than any small gains possible with specializing it for front duty. Don't mess with perfection. :)

pathfindermwd
11-23-2012, 04:09 PM
The baffle is 10" wide, from chamfer to chamfer. Those angled corners do two things. First the non-rectangle shape is suppose to reduce standing waves in the box. Second, the angled corners should reduce edge diffraction.
If one were to cut off those chamfers making the box 10" wide and also deeper, creating 90* corners then you bring back the edge diffraction.
Unless the corners were bull nosed.

But does anything less than a rounded 90 contribute to baffle response?

pathfindermwd
11-23-2012, 05:04 PM
Keeping in mind that wall and corner mounting were part of the design intention, it's very nearly a perfect design for its intended purposes. The flexibility of using it for surround and front duty is worth far more than any small gains possible with specializing it for front duty. Don't mess with perfection. :)

I dont want to redesign the pt800, just increase the subwoofer volume. Only interested in learning about baffle design.

jblsound
11-23-2012, 05:37 PM
Keeping in mind that wall and corner mounting were part of the design intention, it's very nearly a perfect design for its intended purposes. The flexibility of using it for surround and front duty is worth far more than any small gains possible with specializing it for front duty. Don't mess with perfection. :)

Most certainly true!! In fact most all purpose designs for anything will not be as good as the PT800 is for music.

jblsound
11-23-2012, 05:41 PM
I dont want to redesign the pt800, just increase the subwoofer volume. Only interested in learning about baffle design.

I don't think there would be anything to gain by making the baffle/box narrower, as is the baffle is only slightly wider than the 8" driver.
Its completely different compared to the 16" wide baffle of the L212. Off setting the drivers in that design eliminates the baffle as an IB.
That problem does not exist in the PT800.

pathfindermwd
11-23-2012, 05:46 PM
I don't think there would be anything to gain by making the baffle/box narrower, as is the baffle is only slightly wider than the 8" driver.
Its completely different compared to the 16" wide baffle of the L212. Off setting the drivers in that design eliminates the baffle as an IB.
That problem does not exist in the PT800.

That was my thinking exactly. Thats why I was looking for clarification from Widget. He must have a reason for wanting to narrow it.

jblsound
11-23-2012, 06:47 PM
That was my thinking exactly. Thats why I was looking for clarification from Widget. He must have a reason for wanting to narrow it.

The way I understood Widget is he was more concerned in making the box deeper. One could keep the 10" baffle without the extra width created by the chamfers. ending up with a box similar to the L890s which also have 8" drivers.
But the difference there is the L890 is a full range speaker, where the PT800 is not. So unless one is going to add a 14, 15" driver to the mix, I see no reason to make the PT800 deeper. And even then, only the bass compartment needs to be deeper. Then you would have 250Ti.

rdgrimes
12-04-2012, 02:05 PM
Question for anyone in the know:

Inside the PS1400, the output for the PT800 dock passes from the amp to a small PCB attached inside the rear baffle. Then that connects to the PT800 posts. Is this a passive 80Hz high-pass filter, or what? If so, then the switch on the amp for "normal or separated" would just be switching in a 130Hz high-pass in addition to the other.

Anyhow, this might be useful for someone wanting to use the PS1400 as a passive box.


Just found this photo of the filter in question:

57626

So what is it and why is it between the amp and the PT800?

rdgrimes
12-04-2012, 02:08 PM
For anyone contemplating a PS1400 project box:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300828618942&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123&autorefresh=true

57627

jblsound
12-04-2012, 04:43 PM
Just found this photo of the filter in question:

57626

So what is it and why is it between the amp and the PT800?

Well, it has to be a dividing network. The full range signal is coming into the sub and then filters the signal @130 htz, before it goes to the PT800.

rdgrimes
12-04-2012, 04:58 PM
Well, it has to be a dividing network. The full range signal is coming into the sub and then filters the signal @130 htz, before it goes to the PT800.
Except that the amp has a switch for 80Hz or 130Hz filters to the PT800. (normal or separate configuration). This filter is downstream from the amp so all it can really be is a 80Hz filter. That means that the switch on the amp is just to include or not include the 130Hz filter in addition to this one.

jblsound
12-04-2012, 05:31 PM
Except that the amp has a switch for 80Hz or 130Hz filters to the PT800. (normal or separate configuration). This filter is downstream from the amp so all it can really be is a 80Hz filter. That means that the switch on the amp is just to include or not include the 130Hz filter in addition to this one.
I don't see how it can be 'in addition to'. The switch is 80 on one pole, and 130 on the other pole. So its one or the other.

rdgrimes
12-04-2012, 05:57 PM
I don't see how it can be 'in addition to'. The switch is 80 on one pole, and 130 on the other pole. So its one or the other.

I'm not going to argue this, but you are missing the point - which is that the amp switch is in series with this filter. The extra filter is in the circuit regardless of the position of the switch.

jblsound
12-04-2012, 06:04 PM
I'm not going to argue this, but you are missing the point - which is that the amp switch is in series with this filter. The extra filter is in the circuit regardless of the position of the switch.
Well, I don't know then, I can not picture what its doing.

pathfindermwd
12-04-2012, 09:24 PM
I'm not going to argue this, but you are missing the point - which is that the amp switch is in series with this filter. The extra filter is in the circuit regardless of the position of the switch.

The line level input is crossed-over at/by the amp. If the unit is connected by the speaker wire then it bypasses (and or adds?) to this filter. If the speaker jacks are not used then the PT800 is not docked and this filter is not used/utilised.

???

rdgrimes
12-04-2012, 10:01 PM
There's no crossover on the LFE input, the crossover is only for the speaker level input.

pathfindermwd
12-04-2012, 10:28 PM
There's no crossover on the LFE input, the crossover is only for the speaker level input.

yes? But nevertheless, the amp will only play a certain bandwidth, it's not a full range amp.

rdgrimes
12-11-2012, 12:37 PM
For anyone contemplating a PS1400 project box:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300828618942&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123&autorefresh=true

57627


For the record, I'm the sucker who bought this. $70 all-in and it includes all original packing, grill, docking hardware, LED panel and PT800 filter (whatever that does).
Now I just need a LE14H-3 and another amp.

jblsound
12-11-2012, 12:53 PM
yes? But nevertheless, the amp will only play a certain bandwidth, it's not a full range amp.

The LFE frequency range is controlled by the source/AVR which is a brick wall @120 htz ~ 20 htz. And at the speaker level input its XO @130 htz. So what is your point? No one said it was a full range amp.

rdgrimes
12-11-2012, 01:16 PM
And at the speaker level input its XO @130 htz.

The speaker level input crossover is EITHER 130Hz or 80Hz depending on the switch. I think that's where the confusion lies.

jblsound
12-11-2012, 01:29 PM
The speaker level input crossover is EITHER 130Hz or 80Hz depending on the switch. I think that's where the confusion lies.

I understand that. I was mentioning that the max frequency output by the sub is 130 htz at its upper XO point.
But as for the LFE a brick wall @ 120.

rdgrimes
12-11-2012, 03:20 PM
Actually there's some evidence that the 120Hz brick wall doesn't exist unless the processor has a filter on the LFE channel (many don't). There's lots of source material with sounds above 120Hz, and sound engineers routinely ignore specs. I've seen examples of movie tracks with LFE channel content up to 200Hz. And of course many systems use bass steering into the LFE channel that can contain most anything if set up with a higher XO point. Not to worry though, the LE14H is fully capable well past that point.

rpatt
12-11-2012, 05:59 PM
For the record, I'm the sucker who bought this. $70 all-in and it includes all original packing, grill, docking hardware, LED panel and PT800 filter (whatever that does).
Now I just need a LE14H-3 and another amp.

I was watching that. Good buy & good luck finding the parts.

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 06:01 PM
The LFE frequency range is controlled by the source/AVR which is a brick wall @120 htz ~ 20 htz. And at the speaker level input its XO @130 htz. So what is your point? No one said it was a full range amp.

Hell I don't know! I think I'm still a little confused by the question to be frank! But as for the LFE, this is what the JBL manual says:

¤LFE/Subwoofer Input – This
jack accepts either an LFE or
line-level output from the
receiver or processor.

So it could be either a full range signal, or a filtered one. In another place it says:

In the “Separated” position,
the PS1400 provides an
electronic 300Hz rolloff for the
subwoofer, which should be
augmented by the low-pass
crossover in the external
audio/video receiver or
processor.

But back to posters original question it says:

ªLF Crossover Switch – This
switch is used to engage the
PS1400’s internal crossover
when it is stacked with the
PT800 tower module, and when
no external crossover is being
used. In the “Normal” position,
the internal crossover is
engaged, and provides an
electronic 130Hz crossover for
the subwoofer which precisely
matches the passive 130Hz
crossover point of the output
terminal to the PT800. The
crossover is precision designed
to create a smooth,
integrated floorstanding
speaker system when the
PS1400 and PT800 are stacked.

So, it sounds to me as if the crossover in question (which I have seen myself) is designed to create a more perfect transition to the PT800, in the docked position. I was just pointing out that whether or not another crossover is used/exists, the amp is somehow limited in its frequency output by design and would only present a limited bandwidth, crossover or not. I'm not sure if this answers any questions. I'm not even sure if I understand the posters premise and apologize if I am not being helpful!

jblsound
12-11-2012, 06:15 PM
Actually there's some evidence that the 120Hz brick wall doesn't exist unless the processor has a filter on the LFE channel (many don't). There's lots of source material with sounds above 120Hz, and sound engineers routinely ignore specs. I've seen examples of movie tracks with LFE channel content up to 200Hz. And of course many systems use bass steering into the LFE channel that can contain most anything if set up with a higher XO point. Not to worry though, the LE14H is fully capable well past that point.

The original LE14A was run up to 2000 hz in the L55. Even the VLF sub1500 is good to 500 hz.

One question I've had about the 130 hz XO in the PS, how it even works; being the PT800 is -6db @80, and the f3 @100. So @130 its down about only 1.5 db. And then still can provide a smooth XO @ either 130 or 80.

jblsound
12-11-2012, 06:23 PM
In the “Separated” position,
the PS1400 provides an
electronic 300Hz rolloff for the
subwoofer, which should be
augmented by the low-pass
crossover in the external
audio/video receiver or
processor.

That is basically standard. If any given sub only has a sub line in connection, no LFE, then it says to turn the sub's XO all the way up, to get it out of the way of the AVR's 80 hz. Most sub XOs top out at 150. Any LFE input has NO XO in the path.

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 07:04 PM
That is basically standard. If any given sub only has a sub line in connection, no LFE, then it says to turn the sub's XO all the way up, to get it out of the way of the AVR's 80 hz. Most sub XOs top out at 150. Any LFE input has NO XO in the path.

So, in the "normal" position, there are 2 crossovers, 1 electronic, 1 passive, both set to 130hz. I take it that the electronic crossover is used when the LFE input is used (in the normal position), the passive one when the Speaker input are used? In the "separated" position there is an electronic 300hz rolloff to be augmented by a processor, no XO in seperated, correct?

jblsound
12-11-2012, 07:59 PM
So, in the "normal" position, there are 2 crossovers, 1 electronic, 1 passive, both set to 130hz. I take it that the electronic crossover is used when the LFE input is used (in the normal position), the passive one when the Speaker input are used? In the "separated" position there is an electronic 300hz rolloff to be augmented by a processor, no XO in seperated, correct?

The LFE input is totally separate from the XO. When docked the sub is set to 130. The PT800 has a passive XO at 130.
The LFE is supplying the .1 channel

When separated, the sub has the natural roll off at 300 with no XO, as the AVR is supplying the 80 hz xo.

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 08:26 PM
The LFE input is totally separate from the XO. When docked the sub is set to 130. The PT800 has a passive XO at 130.
The LFE is supplying the .1 channel

When separated, the sub has the natural roll off at 300 with no XO, as the AVR is supplying the 80 hz xo.

The manual doesn't support your statement:

LF Crossover Switch – This
switch is used to engage the
PS1400’s internal crossover
when it is stacked with the
PT800 tower module, and when
no external crossover is being
used. In the “Normal” position,
the internal crossover is
engaged, and provides an
electronic 130Hz crossover for
the subwoofer which precisely
matches the passive 130Hz
crossover point of the output
terminal to the PT800

It states clearly that the passive crossover is output to the PT800, not that the PT800 has the crossover. The "normal" engages the internal electronic crossover if an external XO (processor) is not used. The passive one goes without saying, a speaker level input. The LFE input is only LFE when in Seperated mode, otherwise, it's noraml... 130hz.
An electronic XO suggests a line level input, yes?

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 08:42 PM
The LFE input is totally separate from the XO. When docked the sub is set to 130. The PT800 has a passive XO at 130.
The LFE is supplying the .1 channel

When separated, the sub has the natural roll off at 300 with no XO, as the AVR is supplying the 80 hz xo.

Additionally:

In the “Separated” position,
the PS1400 provides an
electronic 300Hz rolloff for the
subwoofer, which should be
augmented by the low-pass
crossover in the external
audio/video receiver or
processor. In this mode, the
PT800, whether or not it is
stacked with the PS1400,
should be given only a highpassed
amplifier signal. That
signal should be crossed over
at 80Hz.

This proves that the PT800 does not have a 130hz crossover..

rdgrimes
12-11-2012, 09:22 PM
Additionally:

In the “Separated” position,
the PS1400 provides an
electronic 300Hz rolloff for the
subwoofer, which should be
augmented by the low-pass
crossover in the external
audio/video receiver or
processor. In this mode, the
PT800, whether or not it is
stacked with the PS1400,
should be given only a highpassed
amplifier signal. That
signal should be crossed over
at 80Hz.

This proves that the PT800 does not have a 130hz crossover..

The passive 130Hz filter is ALWAYS working on the PT800 output, period. (assuming that filter is actually at 130Hz). So according to the above quotes, if the PT800 is connected to the output posts on the PS1400 it is running on a 130Hz filter regardless of the position of the switch. The switch then ONLY effects the input to the sub. This is really the only explanation that makes any sense. The manual is poorly written, and the reference to the 80Hz crossover requirement is meant for when the PT800 is NOT being fed from the PS1400's output posts.

Titanium Dome
12-11-2012, 09:50 PM
Fellas, this is all that's in there.

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 10:02 PM
The passive 130Hz filter is ALWAYS working on the PT800 output, period. (assuming that filter is actually at 130Hz). So according to the above quotes, if the PT800 is connected to the output posts on the PS1400 it is running on a 130Hz filter regardless of the position of the switch. The switch then ONLY effects the input to the sub. This is really the only explanation that makes any sense. The manual is poorly written, and the reference to the 80Hz crossover requirement is meant for when the PT800 is NOT being fed from the PS1400's output posts.

Yep, yep, yep! Exactly! The manual is poorly written. For example, it does not clearly explain that the electronic XO is for line level input in "normal" mode, docked and un-docked explanations have little to do with it. The passive XO is "in line" to the PT800 and must be used when speaker level signal is engaged and passed on, regardless of switch position. And, if "separated" is engaged, the sub (LE143) will play on to 300hz unless an eternal XO is used. The switch ought to say 130hz/300hz. The 130hz passive XO should have been put in the PT800, space not an issue, and therein lies the confusion, I think. I don't know why they didn't just say that if used alone the PT800 should have a 130hz crossover signal, though pointing it out is moot since we have long ago gone over the fact that the PT800 will not play below 80hz and a XO is really not needed. I played mine at full signal, no problem, there is not much bass there...

Can we call this one solved? :D

jblsound
12-11-2012, 10:04 PM
The passive 130Hz filter is ALWAYS working on the PT800 output, period. (assuming that filter is actually at 130Hz). So according to the above quotes, if the PT800 is connected to the output posts on the PS1400 it is running on a 130Hz filter regardless of the position of the switch. The switch then ONLY effects the input to the sub. This is really the only explanation that makes any sense. The manual is poorly written, and the reference to the 80Hz crossover requirement is meant for when the PT800 is NOT being fed from the PS1400's output posts.

Why would the 130 hz filter be working when the PT800 is playing down to 80, when connected to a signal from the AVR which has the XO set to 80?
I can certainly see the 130 filter in the circuit when the internal XO is used.

jblsound
12-11-2012, 10:22 PM
Yep, yep, yep! Exactly! The manual is poorly written. For example, it does not clearly explain that the electronic XO is for line level input in "normal" mode, docked and un-docked explanations have little to do with it. The passive XO is "in line" to the PT800 and must be used when speaker level signal is engaged and passed on, regardless of switch position. And, if "separated" is engaged, the sub (LE143) will play on to 300hz unless an eternal XO is used. The switch ought to say 130hz/300hz. The 130hz passive XO should have been put in the PT800, space not an issue, and therein lies the confusion, I think. I don't know why they didn't just say that if used alone the PT800 should have a 130hz crossover signal, though pointing it out is moot since we have long ago gone over the fact that the PT800 will not play below 80hz and a XO is really not needed. I played mine at full signal, no problem, there is not much bass there...

Can we call this one solved? :D

With an acoustical XO created by the sealed .3^3 box if the slope is 24db/octave, then @ 40 hz its -30db. So therefore you will not hear any output. The fact the manual says not to apply a full range signal is not really needed. How the PT800 works is just the same as the old L212, the sealed box is providing the acoustical XO, although with the L212 only having a 12db/octave slope you do get some bass @ 35hz.

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 10:24 PM
Fellas, this is all that's in there.

I saw that too. What does this mean to the average consumer though? Anyway, it still doesn't seem to clearly differentiate between the electronic XO and the Passive XO in both/either mode.

They say that life is in the journey, not the destination, maybe by doing it all wrong, they helped us to get it all right.. ;)

pathfindermwd
12-11-2012, 10:38 PM
With an acoustical XO created by the sealed .3^3 box if the slope is 24db/octave, then @ 40 hz its -30db. So therefore you will not hear any output. The fact the manual says not to apply a full range signal is not really needed. How the PT800 works is just the same as the old L212, the sealed box is providing the acoustical XO, although with the L212 only having a 12db/octave slope you do get some bass @ 35hz.

Makes sense but I thought it was the driver limitation..

jblsound
12-12-2012, 05:07 AM
Makes sense but I thought it was the driver limitation..

Its the combination of a particular driver mounted in a particular sized sealed box. Of coarse, if one adds a port then the entire equation changes.
And ever since we've had AVRs & pre/pros everyone just thinks you have to have an electronic XO for both the mid-bass and sub, or you blow up the mid-bass driver. One of the original sat/sub systems, the L212, back then there were no AVRs with built-in XO.
And the 112A in its sealed box had a natural roll off @ 70 hz, and one octave lower, 35 hz, its -18db. I have run both the PT800 and L212 full range with the subs off, never had a problem. If either were ported, probably would have blown both up years ago, trying that.

rdgrimes
12-12-2012, 06:53 AM
Why would the 130 hz filter be working when the PT800 is playing down to 80, when connected to a signal from the AVR which has the XO set to 80?
I can certainly see the 130 filter in the circuit when the internal XO is used.

I'm not concerned with "why", but the passive filter is ALWAYS in the circuit for the PT800 output, so if you want to run the PT800 down to 80Hz it must not be connected to a PS1400.

jblsound
12-12-2012, 07:25 AM
I'm not concerned with "why", but the passive filter is ALWAYS in the circuit for the PT800 output, so if you want to run the PT800 down to 80Hz it must not be connected to a PS1400.
Yes, I see that. The two can also be physically connected, but not electrically, and run "bi-amp" where the PT800s receive down to 80 and the PS1400 getting bass & LFE.
Now that I think a bit more of the 130 filter & receiving a signal to 80, not really any different than any other sub that only has a 'sub in' and not a LFE or LFE switch. In which cases, one turns up the sub's XO all the way to the top, usually 150 hz, to get it out of the way of the AVR's 80 hz XO.

Titanium Dome
12-12-2012, 11:01 AM
I saw that too. What does this mean to the average consumer though? Anyway, it still doesn't seem to clearly differentiate between the electronic XO and the Passive XO in both/either mode.

They say that life is in the journey, not the destination, maybe by doing it all wrong, they helped us to get it all right.. ;)

For those pondering these mysteries, just remember, "selectable" isn't the same as "variable." ;)

rdgrimes
12-12-2012, 12:54 PM
It's good to know however that simply switching the PS1400 to "separated" mode does not take that 130Hz filter off the PT800 output. I learned something.

It's very easy to bypass that filter if someone wanted to have them docked but no filter. Can't imaging why, but its possible.

One wonders though, just what the "separate" setting really does in the PS1400. Apparently it applies a 300Hz roll-off in the "separate" position and a 130Hz crossover in the "normal" position. Most likely this setting has no effect on the LFE input.

And the "LF Gain" adjustment is only affecting the sound below 130Hz in the "normal" position, but what's it doing in the "separate" position, is it affecting everything up to 300Hz? Inquiring minds want to know.

jblsound
12-12-2012, 01:27 PM
60 years ago, it was, The Shadow Knows. In this case, The Mastermind Knows: GT.

pathfindermwd
12-12-2012, 04:11 PM
It's good to know however that simply switching the PS1400 to "separated" mode does not take that 130Hz filter off the PT800 output. I learned something.

It's very easy to bypass that filter if someone wanted to have them docked but no filter. Can't imaging why, but its possible.

One wonders though, just what the "separate" setting really does in the PS1400. Apparently it applies a 300Hz roll-off in the "separate" position and a 130Hz crossover in the "normal" position. Most likely this setting has no effect on the LFE input.

And the "LF Gain" adjustment is only affecting the sound below 130Hz in the "normal" position, but what's it doing in the "separate" position, is it affecting everything up to 300Hz? Inquiring minds want to know.

the manual says:

This control only affects all
information being received by
the speaker-level input.

So for true LFE line in, it wouldn't do anything I guess...

jblsound
12-12-2012, 05:36 PM
the manual says:

This control only affects all
information being received by
the speaker-level input.

So for true LFE line in, it wouldn't do anything I guess...

But when set to separate, and all bass is sent to the LFE input, the LFE control will operate all bass info.

rdgrimes
12-12-2012, 09:05 PM
But when set to separate, and all bass is sent to the LFE input, the LFE control will operate all bass info.

Wrong again. The LFE input and LF (speaker input) are completely different things. The LFE gain never controls anything other than the LFE input.

jblsound
12-13-2012, 04:37 AM
Wrong again. The LFE input and LF (speaker input) are completely different things. The LFE gain never controls anything other than the LFE input.

According to the manual you are wrong! When the coax is supplying both the normal bass & LFE, the LFE control is effecting both.
The coax input is separate from the speaker level input. So If one uses the PS full range & connects the coax, then, YES, they are separate.

This is the only way it can be with all the LF running through the coax.
This is a copy/paste from the manual:
If you are using the third or fourth configurations, where the main speakers are configured as “Small” and all bass information is being sent to the LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the LFE Level control will operate on all low- frequency information, and not just for the .1 channel effects.

jblsound
12-13-2012, 05:16 AM
For some reason the edit function did not work on the post above. Kept going back to the original post.

Anyway, if all the LF are being sent through the coax/LFE input then the LFE control is the only control in the bass circuit.
And the LF control then sees nothing. You still end up with the same output, both the normal LF & LFE channel.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 10:22 AM
But when set to separate, and all bass is sent to the LFE input, the LFE control will operate all bass info.


Wrong again. The LFE input and LF (speaker input) are completely different things. The LFE gain never controls anything other than the LFE input.


According to the manual you are wrong! When the coax is supplying both the normal bass & LFE, the LFE control is effecting both.
The coax input is separate from the speaker level input. So If one uses the PS full range & connects the coax, then, YES, they are separate.

This is the only way it can be with all the LF running through the coax.
This is a copy/paste from the manual:
If you are using the third or fourth configurations, where the main speakers are configured as “Small” and all bass information is being sent to the LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the LFE Level control will operate on all low- frequency information, and not just for the .1 channel effects.




I'm getting confused again!:(

There are two knobs, the LF level which adds up to +/- 5db in Normal mode, doesn't work on the Sub/LEF input:

This control only affects all
information being received by
the speaker-level input.

The LFE knob only regulates the input voltage since all line levels are not the same (which could work to turn up the volume):

LFE Level Control – This
control only affects the signal
sent to the LFE input. Adjust
the LFE level by starting with
the level controls on both
PS1400 modules in the
Minimum position. With 5.1, 6.1
or 7.1 source material playing,
advance the LFE Level controls
on both PS1400s slowly until
the desired amount of effects
channel is present. The normal
position for this control is full
clockwise, with LFE adjustments
being made via the level
adjustments on your processor.
We have provided this control
because the LFE output level of
AV receivers and processors
can vary from manufacturer to
manufacturer.

Ti also chimed in and clarified that selectable does not mean variable. There is no variable XO control on the PS1400, you either get 130hz in normal mode, or you have an external XO. You can only turn up the loudness.


EDIT: You can only turn up/down the loudness when the speaker level input are used using the LF Level, you can only turn down the loudness if the line level signal is too high at the LFE Level, you can't amp it over it's original signal.

rdgrimes
12-13-2012, 10:47 AM
I'm getting confused again!:(



That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in. ;)
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.

Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.

rdgrimes
12-13-2012, 10:50 AM
BTW, I've noticed that the later revision of the PS1400 amp I have has a auto-on sensing circuit that is actually worth using. Hardly ever shuts off at the wrong time and is much more sensitive so it turns on quicker, and silently.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 11:17 AM
That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in. ;)
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.

Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.

I thought we were seeing eye to eye, so far as I understood what was being said..:D

What would happen if the speaker jacks were used and the sub set to Separate? The electronic XO of 130hz would be disabled, the PT800 would still get it's 130hz from the passive. The LF Level would still work to turn up the loudness (db). The Sub itself would need an external XO to regulate it's top frequency since the XO was disabled, or it would play up to 300hz. The LFE from the AV could override the signal played including the PT800, if for example you had it set to small speakers since it is regulating the signal in the preamp before the speaker jack out and the line out.

But without the AV in use the PS1400 would run up to 300hz, the PT800 cannot go lower than 130hz imposed by the passive.

Sound right?

EDIT: Unless the AV can send one signal to the speaker out, and another to the sub out... I dunno, I'm still old school..

rdgrimes
12-13-2012, 11:28 AM
I thought we were seeing eye to eye, so far as I understood what was being said..:D

What would happen if the speaker jacks were used and the sub set to Separate? The electronic XO of 130hz would be disabled, the PT800 would still get it's 130hz from the passive. The LF Level would still work to turn up the loudness (db). The Sub itself would need an external XO to regulate it's top frequency since the XO was disabled, or it would play up to 300hz. The LFE from the AV could override the signal played including the PT800, if for example you had it set to small speakers since it is regulating the signal in the preamp before the speaker jack out and the line out.

But without the AV in use the PS1400 would run up to 300hz, the PT800 cannot go lower than 130hz imposed by the passive.

Sound right?

That's more or less what I was trying to describe previously. With the switch set to "Separate", the sub is receiving whatever be being input via speakers jacks. However it has a 300Hz roll-off (filter). So on paper the sub and PT800 are duplicating any sounds between 130 and 300Hz. I think the preferable situation would be to power the PT800 separately and use the AVR crossover to direct bass to the LFE channel. However it does offer options which are not available in traditional sub setups. AND, it offers separate gain controls in the sub for the 2 inputs. On the PS1400, the LFE control offers only attenuation but the LF control offers -2 to +5 db control.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 11:32 AM
That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in. ;)
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.

Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.

Well the LFE gain is not really a gain, the amp does not amp a line level signal, it can only give you 100% of it, or less..

The LF gain should still work since the amp can/does amp the speaker level input, if present. But up to what frequency.. that is determined by the signal that the AV sets at that point, again, the AV could override all frequencies to the speaker jacks and the line out.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 11:36 AM
That's more or less what I was trying to describe previously. With the switch set to "Separate", the sub is receiving whatever be being input via speakers jacks. However it has a 300Hz roll-off (filter). So on paper the sub and PT800 are duplicating any sounds between 130 and 300Hz. I think the preferable situation would be to power the PT800 separately and use the AVR crossover to direct bass to the LFE channel. However it does offer options which are not available in traditional sub setups. AND, it offers separate gain controls in the sub for the 2 inputs. On the PS1400, the LFE control offers only attenuation but the LF control offers -2 to +5 db control.

Didn't mean to talk over you:o:

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 12:05 PM
Well the LFE gain is not really a gain, the amp does not amp a line level signal, it can only give you 100% of it, or less..

The LF gain should still work since the amp can/does amp the speaker level input, if present. But up to what frequency.. that is determined by the signal that the AV sets at that point, again, the AV could override all frequencies to the speaker jacks and the line out.

it might be just as easy to bi-amp the system and use similar amps to power both the PS1400 and the PT800. The thing I kinda saw with using the 240's as enclosures for the PS1400 is that the bass would sometimes be boomy. I think this is because being a small enclosure the bass in the PS1400 never get's to be too much really, so it's easier to mate with the PT800. 4313B said that he would loose the PS amp, and I think this might be partly why, integration.

jblsound
12-13-2012, 12:36 PM
That's what happens when people unfamiliar with the PS1400 chime in. ;)
You are correct:
The LFE gain only affects line level input from the LFE jack.
The LF gain only effects input from the speaker level posts. However that input to the sub varies depending on the "normal - separate" switch position.

Bass management done in the AVR/processor is not relevant to this discussion. But whatever is coming in on the LFE input is passed to the sub.

I'm reading the Manual as I write this and have had this manual since '06 when I bought the PT800.
In your above statements you are both right and wrong! Compared to what is stated in the last paragraph. HAVE YOU EVER READ IT?
You are right in that the two controls are separate; LF Control is for the speaker level binding posts circuit.
And the LFE Control is for the effects channel, coax input.

BUT when ONLY THE LFE input is used, ALL the bass output is going to the LFE input. So ALL the LF info is controlled by the LFE Control. NONE of the signal can be controlled by the LF Control, because there are NO speaker wires connected to the speaker binding posts. Which is what you would have IF you used configurations 3 or 4, in the manual.
Which is stated in the last paragraph. What is it about that statement do you not understand?

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm reading the Manual as I write this and have had this manual since '06 when I bought the PT800.
In your above statements you are both right and wrong! Compared to what is stated in the last paragraph. HAVE YOU EVER READ IT?
You are right in that the two controls are separate; LF Control is for the speaker level binding posts circuit.
And the LFE Control is for the effects channel, coax input.

BUT when ONLY THE LFE input is used, ALL the bass output is going to the LFE input. So ALL the LF info is controlled by the LFE Control. NONE of the signal can be controlled by the LF Control, because there are NO speaker wires connected to the speaker binding posts.
Which is stated in the last paragraph. What is it about that statement do you not understand?





Why so angry?

I thought we were stipulating on what would happen if both Speaker level and LFE were connected. Would the LF control still work? Yes, it would amp the speaker jack signal. Would the AV still control how high the sub played (up to 300hz)? Yes.

If in Normal mode the signal sent to the sub via the Sub/LFE would be crossed-over electrically at 130hz.
If in Separated mode the Sub/LFE signal would be controlled by the AV or else would play up to it's 300hz rolloff.
In any mode when the speaker jacks are used to passive XO would keep the PT800 at above 130hz.


To reiterate my statement, there is no variable control (XO) on the PS1400, you have 130hz in
Normal, or you have 300hz rolloff in Separated, or controlled by the AV. The LFE dial only allows you to (as rdgrimes said), attenuate the low voltage signal, up to 100%.

I think you just said that, so i'm not sure where the argument is.

It seems there is misunderstanding about what is being said, less about what is going on?

jblsound
12-13-2012, 02:10 PM
Why so angry?

I thought we were stipulating on what would happen if both Speaker level and LFE were connected. Would the LF control still work? Yes, it would amp the speaker jack signal. Would the AV still control how high the sub played (up to 300hz)? Yes.

If in Normal mode the signal sent to the sub via the Sub/LFE would be crossed-over electrically at 130hz.
If in Separated mode the Sub/LFE signal would be controlled by the AV or else would play up to it's 300hz rolloff.
In any mode when the speaker jacks are used to passive XO would keep the PT800 at above 130hz.


To reiterate my statement, there is no variable control (XO) on the PS1400, you have 130hz in
Normal, or you have 300hz rolloff in Separated, or controlled by the AV. The LFE dial only allows you to (as rdgrimes said), attenuate the low voltage signal, up to 100%.

I think you just said that, so i'm not sure where the argument is.

It seems there is misunderstanding about what is being said, less about what is going on?

I'm not angry. We were talking about what the LF and LFE Controls do and don't do. And I saw the configs 3 & 4 where the LFE Control is controlling both. so I thought I would mention that fact.
But most people would (I assume) connect both the speaker line in and the coax. So you end up with a full range tower with the added LFE channel too.
In which the LF controls the full range signal and the LFE controls the .1 channel.

I was stating that IF someone were to ONLY connect the subs via coax, as in config 3 & 4, then ALL the bass frequencies are running through the coax, thus only the LFE Control is in use. As its stated in the last paragraph of that section.

I would think the only reason someone would want to connect the subs like that is if they had to place the subs in corners, or elsewhere. Due to height restrictions or maybe not enough bass from the main L/R locations. Or some other odd situation.

For 8 years I've had my L212s and/or PT800s mounted to my diy sub1500s, during which time I've had the speaker level and coax connected to my subs, just as if I were using the PS1400.
Until where I'm living now. After two months of moving the towers around to find the right locations for soundstage, I decided to place the subs, stacked, on the system's centerline, dropping the 3-ways down about 9", using the original L212 bases.
And in this room it improves the soundstage, something that was not a problem before. Its All about the room. Damn concrete construction!
So there is a situation in which I needed to separate the subs from the mains to improve the overall sound.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 03:06 PM
:hmm:


I'm not angry.

:blink:




We were talking about what the LF and LFE Controls do and don't do. And most people would connect both the speaker line in and the coax. So you end up with a full range tower with the added LFE channel too.
In which the LF controls the full range signal and the LFE controls the .1 channel.

I'm confused by this statement. If by full range you mean Speaker connection, then yes, the LF controls the amp's gain in either mode Normal or Separated. If you mean the LFE controls the .1 channel, I think this only works in Separated mode, whether there is a speaker connection or not since in Normal mode the coax connection will be set at 130hz by the electronic XO in the PS1400. Turning down the LFE knob in this mode could defeat the amp's gain, which I don't know, but doubt it would work that way.



I was stating that IF someone were to ONLY connect the subs via coax, as in config 3 & 4, then ALL the bass frequencies are running through the coax, thus only the LFE Control is in use. As its stated in the last paragraph of that section.

I think we understand that only the LFE knob will work when in Separated mode, line in (Sub/LFE in) only. But when you say all the bass frequencies, you mean all that the AV is giving it up to the PS1400's maximum of 300hz.?


I would think the only reason someone would want to connect the subs like that is if they had to place the subs in corners, or elsewhere. Due to height restrictions or maybe not enough bass from the main L/R locations. Or some other odd situation.

As a 2 channel user, I don't know why either. My guess is that someone may want to run in 5.1 or 7.1, and at other times stereo only mode? So then you just use the switch on the PS1400 to make it run a a full range speaker again without having to reset the AV.

rdgrimes
12-13-2012, 03:33 PM
BUT when ONLY THE LFE input is used, ALL the bass output is going to the LFE input. So ALL the LF info is controlled by the LFE Control. NONE of the signal can be controlled by the LF Control, because there are NO speaker wires connected to the speaker binding posts. Which is what you would have IF you used configurations 3 or 4, in the manual.
Which is stated in the last paragraph. What is it about that statement do you not understand?


You're the only one discussing any scenario where only the LFE input is used. That's certainly an option, but not one being discussed here. Hence the confusion.

It's also a misnomer to use the term "separated mode". The position of the switch for "separate - normal" can be changed whether units are docked or not. And that switch only effects the sub's output.

jblsound
12-13-2012, 03:35 PM
I'm confused by this statement. If by full range you mean Speaker connection, then yes, the LF controls the amp's gain in either mode Normal or Separated. If you mean the LFE controls the .1 channel, I think this only works in Separated mode, whether there is a speaker connection or not since in Normal mode the coax connection will be set at 130hz by the electronic XO in the PS1400. Turning down the LFE knob in this mode could defeat the amp's gain, which I don't know, but doubt it would work that way.

As long as the coax is connected to the LFE in, then the LFE control will always work on the .1 in any setup.



I think we understand that only the LFE knob will work when in Separated mode, line in (Sub/LFE in) only. But when you say all the bass frequencies, you mean all that the AV is giving it up to the PS1400's maximum of 300hz.?


Here is the statement from the manual for configs 3 & 4 (no speaker wire connection), so everything below 80 hz (assuming AVR setting) for bass and below 120 for the .1 is going to the subs.

If you are using the third or fourth configurations, where the main speakers are configured as “Small” and all bass information is being sent to the LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the LFE Level control will operate on all low-frequency information, and not just for the .1 channel effects.

jblsound
12-13-2012, 03:46 PM
You're the only one discussing any scenario where only the LFE input is used. That's certainly an option, but not one being discussed here. Hence the confusion.

It's also a misnomer to use the term "separated mode". The position of the switch for "separate - normal" can be changed whether units are docked or not. And that switch only effects the sub's output.

We were discussing the LFE, LF Controls work on the effects channel and speaker level, respectively. And I was just pointing out that they show 2 configs where the LFE Control works for both of those inputs, if one wanted to use those setups of coax connection only.

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 04:29 PM
As long as the coax is connected to the LFE in, then the LFE control will always work on the .1 in any setup.




Here is the statement from the manual for configs 3 & 4 (no speaker wire connection), so everything below 80 hz (assuming AVR setting) for bass and below 120 for the .1 is going to the subs.

If you are using the third or fourth configurations, where the main speakers are configured as “Small” and all bass information is being sent to the LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the LFE Level control will operate on all low-frequency information, and not just for the .1 channel effects.

Before I get too far, Sound, what is it in detail we got wrong? I don't mind the discussion, but I can't stand not being sure what you mean....

pathfindermwd
12-13-2012, 05:42 PM
For what it's worth...

I just conducted a small experiment. I hooked up the line level to both PS1400's, disconnected the speaker wire. The subs go completely silent when turning down the LFE in either mode Normal/Seperated. So, the LFE knob works in both Normal and Separate, line in only.

When switching to normal the 130hz crossover kicks in as suspected, speaker connected or not.

But here is the really weird thing, and maybe someone knows why, when I plugged in the LFE in Normal mode when the speakers jacks were connected, the bass got better, was hitting harder. WTH????

jblsound
12-13-2012, 08:51 PM
For what it's worth...

I just conducted a small experiment. I hooked up the line level to both PS1400's, disconnected the speaker wire. The subs go completely silent when turning down the LFE in either mode Normal/Seperated. So, the LFE knob works in both Normal and Separate, line in only.

When switching to normal the 130hz crossover kicks in as suspected, speaker connected or not.

But here is the really weird thing, and maybe someone knows why, when I plugged in the LFE in Normal mode when the speakers jacks were connected, the bass got better, was hitting harder. WTH????

That would be the result of the sub getting twice the signal. Its like connecting a bass signal to both the left and right sub inputs on the plate amp, instead of just to one.

Don C
12-13-2012, 10:13 PM
I can't even figure out what you guys are arguing about. Maybe the block diagram will help anyway.

57690

MikeBrewster77
12-16-2012, 08:54 PM
But I got around to removing the strapping bars on the PS stacks today. Noticeable improvement as noted [way] earlier in this thread. :)

57714

JBLAddict
12-16-2012, 11:19 PM
But I got around to removing the strapping bars on the PS stacks today. Noticeable improvement as noted [way] earlier in this thread. :)

57714

remember reading that but never got around to it, will have to give it a try, how'd you qualify the noticeable difference?

rpatt
12-17-2012, 02:14 AM
But I got around to removing the strapping bars on the PS stacks today. Noticeable improvement as noted [way] earlier in this thread. :)

57714

I wanted to keep the look of the bars & improved performance of cables so I'm using both. You can't see the cables from the front.

57717

MikeBrewster77
12-17-2012, 07:08 AM
remember reading that but never got around to it, will have to give it a try, how'd you qualify the noticeable difference?

It's a worthwhile tweak. Hardly a night and day difference, but I noticed a little bit of a reduction in grain on the top end and a slight further stabilization in imaging. Not going to rule out psychoacoustics, but the grain thing I did do an A/B on. If nothing else, I like the security of the connection as I never felt like I could get the bars to "bite."



I wanted to keep the look of the bars & improved performance of cables so I'm using both. You can't see the cables from the front.

I thought about doing the same because I like the aesthetics of the bars too, but I went with banana plus instead. I do see you have the PS1400 up off the ground which is something I've considered as well. What are you using as a platform? Any comments you can share about how it's impacted the sound?

rpatt
12-17-2012, 07:14 AM
It's a worthwhile tweak. Hardly a night and day difference, but I noticed a little bit of a reduction in grain on the top end and a slight further stabilization in imaging. Not going to rule out psychoacoustics, but the grain thing I did do an A/B on. If nothing else, I like the security of the connection as I never felt like I could get the bars to "bite."




I thought about doing the same because I like the aesthetics of the bars too, but I went with banana plus instead. I do see you have the PS1400 up off the ground which is something I've considered as well. What are you using as a platform? Any comments you can share about how it's impacted the sound?

I used the banana plug jumpers in addition to the links. They are Aurlex Grammas. It decouples them from the floor. Less transmission of bass up the walls to the upstairs.

gferrell
12-29-2012, 01:24 PM
My poor mans
Performance Series
They do sound really good.

rdgrimes
12-29-2012, 02:36 PM
^^^
the dog is not impressed. ;)

pathfindermwd
12-29-2012, 02:47 PM
My poor mans
Performance Series
They do sound really good.

I had to show your setup to my GF, (after I burst up laughing out loud :D) just so she knows there are people just as crazy as me out there, lol!!

That is a huge center channel!!!

I have always lusted over the xpl's..

gferrell
12-29-2012, 02:49 PM
^^^
the dog is not impressed. ;)

Not at all, he tends to leave the room when the music starts playing. I guess we don't have the same taste in music, but I won't fault him for that because he is a good dog.

Titanium Dome
12-29-2012, 04:17 PM
Not at all, he tends to leave the room when the music starts playing. I guess we don't have the same taste in music, but I won't fault him for that because he is a good dog.

I was going to write, "That's a big woofer!" but if it leaves the room every time you play music, then I guess it's not much help to the system.:)

rdgrimes
03-05-2013, 09:23 AM
I've got my second PS1400 amp going out in 6 months.

Looking for a plate amp or entire PS1400. I do have a spare cabinet lacking amp and driver.

jblsound
03-05-2013, 09:54 AM
I've got my second PS1400 amp going out in 6 months.

Looking for a plate amp or entire PS1400. I do have a spare cabinet lacking amp and driver.

Over this past decade, I've lost count how many of those PS10400 amps have gone down.
But most certainly it has a bad design flaw(s). If one or two go down is one thing...
But having dozens go down...

rdgrimes
03-05-2013, 10:05 AM
Active sub amps going out is pretty common across the board. Considering the environment, that's no surprise.

There are at least 2 revisions of the PS1400 amp. From what I've heard its the 1st revision that has issues.

If I had a coupla 300Hz low-pass filters I'd seriously consider just running the stacks without the amps as a true 4-way. The 130Hz high-pass filters are already in there. Or just run them as a true sub & sat on a 130Hz XO.

4313B
03-05-2013, 10:59 AM
Back when the GFA-535 first came out I took the insides out of the case, cut the power supply board in half on a band saw and installed each half into a pair of custom subwoofer boxes running a JBL 124H.

Needless to say, they are still going strong today.

rdgrimes
03-06-2013, 02:43 PM
Weirdness:
My sick PS1400 cured itself today.
Yesterday it was cutting in and out with the LEDs alternating between green and red. This even though its set for "always on". I was surprised to see those LEDs changing since the control circuit has to tell them to do that. Wonder if its just a loose connection or bad solder somewhere?

Anyhow I dug up a "new in box" PS1400 and its on its way to me. Hoping its one of the later revisions.

4313B
03-06-2013, 02:51 PM
If these PS1400's are really worth keeping, you guys should just fix them right with some decent outboard amps.

We had to do the same damn thing with the B212's way back when.

fast_mick
03-06-2013, 10:17 PM
Hi 4313B,

My PS1400 went down as well it was i would say it was an original issue as i got it around 2004 so it lasted 8 years.

Another LH forum member did me a big favor and sold me some new amps from B stock PS1400's


Using the external amp confuses me a bit because of how to arrange the crossover. The PT800 themselves are quite straightforward as you can use the existing high pass crossover in the PS1400 or wire them direct to the amp.

For the PS1400 the crossover is built into the plate amp.

Can i get say a good quality crossover and run high pass say at 100hz direct to the PS1400. Then run the low pass direct into the LE14H with no crossover?

But in some detail what would your practical solution be?

Michael

4313B
03-07-2013, 07:21 AM
But in some detail what would your practical solution be?If you have an AVR then hook up the PS1400 straight to an outboard amp and control everything via the AVR.

If you don't have an AVR then use something like one of the new Crown amps that have the active filter built-in like RobH3606 is doing (I think they also have DSP which you can use to fine tune the PS1400 in a room).

"Worst case" one can go old school and use the LE14H-3 in a 4.0 cu ft box tuned to 26 Hz along with a BX-63A.

The PS1400 box is "easy enough" to build. Rockler has the router bits required to build the octagon. Internal volume can be added via depth.

Just some ideas for those who like to fiddle with stuff.

rdgrimes
03-07-2013, 09:16 AM
The PS1400 has dual inputs, and separate level controls for each input. You can't duplicate that with any external processing that I know of.

4313B
03-07-2013, 09:50 AM
That is a non-issue if one is using it as a subwoofer instead of the low frequency transducer in a 4-way system.

If one prefers to use it as a low frequency transducer in a 4-way system then just use the passive parts. It is slightly more complicated than flipping a switch on the back of a 4345.

***

Yeah, ok:

If you are using the third or
fourth configurations, where
the main speakers are configured
as “Small” and all bass
information is being sent to the
LFE inputs of the PS1400s, the
LFE Level control will operate
on all low- frequency information,
and not just for the .1
channel effects.

Robh3606
03-07-2013, 10:37 AM
Or if using the LFE Input you can use it as a sub by putting an active crossover in line or use a stereo preamp that has bass management and use it's internal crossover. I have done both and either one works just fine.

Rob:)

rdgrimes
03-07-2013, 12:05 PM
That is a non-issue if one is using it as a subwoofer instead of the low frequency transducer in a 4-way system.



Well one of the main benefits of the PS1400 is that you get to do both. Not so with a passive or plate-amp setup.

fast_mick
03-08-2013, 09:52 PM
Thanks I got some ideas but just to confirm as I don't want to accept a reduced sound quality, i just use these for music.

I run my current amp direct into the current 130hz highpass crossover in the PS 1400 and then use the existing cable path to the PT800.

I get something like a Crown XTI and set the low/high pass crossover for 130hz and wire the low pass direct to the LE14H. There is normally an internal 20hz cutoff floor so the signal going to LE14H will be 20hz to 130hz.

I can then play around with gain etc with the XTI to match the PT800 output if necessary?

For the XTI I would get the mid 475W @ 8 ohm version?

Is this correct?

Thanks

rdgrimes
03-13-2013, 10:05 AM
Received my "new" PS1400, which works great and seems to be the later revision. :)
So now I have 2 that I can leave in "auto-on" mode plus one spare and one spare cab. All I need is one driver and one amp and I'll have 4 working.

I'd forgotten what a chore it is to set up a stack. A ratcheting allen wrench is a real necessity.

RedCoat23
03-13-2013, 08:42 PM
That's good news. I got my last one too about a week ago. I now have 7 PS1400's set up in my basement. Front two have PT800's stacked. Front center has the PC600 resting on top. Rear 4 are underneath respective surround speakers. So I'm going to spend this year keeping my eye open for 4 PT800's - I think I'll leave the PC600 for center duty.

I also picked up Emotiva's XPA-1 monoblocks - I have 3 across my front sound stage. It certainly made a difference from the Onkyo integrated I'd been using up to that point. I'm impressed with their quality price/performance ratio.

rdgrimes
03-13-2013, 09:47 PM
That's good news. I got my last one too about a week ago. I now have 7 PS1400's set up in my basement. Front two have PT800's stacked. Front center has the PC600 resting on top. Rear 4 are underneath respective surround speakers. So I'm going to spend this year keeping my eye open for 4 PT800's - I think I'll leave the PC600 for center duty.

I also picked up Emotiva's XPA-1 monoblocks - I have 3 across my front sound stage. It certainly made a difference from the Onkyo integrated I'd been using up to that point. I'm impressed with their quality price/performance ratio.

I'd be surprised if you found a better dedicated center speaker, unless perhaps if you went with the 880 Array. Though I've never heard one nor know anyone who has.

I'm of the opinion that PS stacks don't absolutely need a center if you're sitting on-center.

RedCoat23
03-13-2013, 11:29 PM
I'm of the opinion that PS stacks don't absolutely need a center if you're sitting on-center.

I was just toying with the idea of going for a full stacked configuration for all 7. However, if I want to have a TV in front, instead of projecting to an acoustically transparent screen, the height of the stacked speaker is a little too high to wall mount a TV above (for my taste). Besides it's not as if I'm unhappy with the PC600; it's a great center.

You see if I went for an 880 array, then I'd just be unhappy looking at Performance series left and right pair...and that's just a whole slippery slope at that point, I'd want the rest to match... Cursing the forum as I went for making me destitute... :D

rdgrimes
03-14-2013, 10:28 AM
I was just toying with the idea of going for a full stacked configuration for all 7. However, if I want to have a TV in front, instead of projecting to an acoustically transparent screen, the height of the stacked speaker is a little too high to wall mount a TV above (for my taste). Besides it's not as if I'm unhappy with the PC600; it's a great center.

You see if I went for an 880 array, then I'd just be unhappy looking at Performance series left and right pair...and that's just a whole slippery slope at that point, I'd want the rest to match... Cursing the forum as I went for making me destitute... :D

I don't think the audible difference between the PC600 and PT800 is enough to bother with creating a center PT800 stack in your situation.

rdgrimes
03-15-2013, 09:59 AM
FWIW, the place I bought my newest PS1400 from has listed another on eBay at a reasonable price. NIB, and a reputable seller. Aspen_Electronics (http://www.ebay.com/sch/aspen_electronics/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686)

Mr. Widget
03-15-2013, 11:48 AM
FWIW, the place I bought my newest PS1400 from has listed another on eBay at a reasonable price. NIB, and a reputable seller. Aspen_Electronics (http://www.ebay.com/sch/aspen_electronics/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686)And FWIW the last few hundred A and B stock that JBL/Harman had left are all gone. Aspen and a few other dealers may have some left on hand but the supply will surely dry up soon.


Widget

RedCoat23
03-15-2013, 10:20 PM
FWIW, the place I bought my newest PS1400 from has listed another on eBay at a reasonable price. NIB, and a reputable seller. Aspen_Electronics (http://www.ebay.com/sch/aspen_electronics/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=&_trksid=p3686)

Same place I bought my last one from ;)

howaboutthat41
03-18-2013, 04:12 PM
Same place I bought my last one from ;)


Looks like a great price. My favorite subs for music (something about that PT800/PS1400 stack). Positioned so as to enhance the room gain a bit, they do reasonably well for movies, too. I bought two extras as backups, but matched them with my Revel M22s -- unreal blend (nearly rivals the PS stack) -- inspiring a wealth of compliments, even from the gals. :)

jener8tionx
03-24-2013, 08:12 AM
So far there has been discussion about the failures of the plate amps, but not actually trying to fix one. Here is my story in trying to fix a non-functioning plate amp.

Amp version: Rev - 03D 11/06/2000
All references to components are based on the PS1400 service manual and circuit board.

1. The first sign of trouble was when I noticed there was no output, the leds were red, and sometimes the leds would turn green for a second and would power the speaker. I checked the driver and installed the working amp from the other PS1400 in where the faulty one was and it worked fine, so I am pretty sure the problem is just within the amp itself.

Action taken:
a. I bench powered the amp and found nothing that would indicate that the amp shouldn't be working. Because transistors are often the culprit, I removed the output transistors. I then bench powered the amp and the relay sounded like it was functioning so I thought I had it figured out.
b. I ordered new transistors and changed the output transistors Q11, Q13, Q15, Q17
c. I then bench powered the amp and it appeared to be working
d. I also noticed visible dark spots on PCB board where R76 and R78 mount. It was the same on the board of my functioning PS1400. See pictures below of functioning board:

http://i.imgur.com/nudxwig.jpg (http://imgur.com/nudxwig)

2. After reinstalling the plate amp it ran for a few minutes then back to red LEDs. I could hear the relay clicking.

Action taken:
a. I saw that the fuse had blown. I replaced the fuse from the working amp.

3. I powered the amplifier on the bench. PCB board shorted., D3 was melted, Q8 was visibly broken

a. Replaced D3, D?, R76, R78, Q5, Q8
b. Soldered over fried area of PCB board

http://i.imgur.com/XnzTKMc.jpg (http://imgur.com/XnzTKMc)

3. Amplifier LEDs powered straight to green, but no output, burning smell

a. The PCB was fried again in same place; fixed, replaced burnt out U4
b. removed and tested bridge rectifier, diodes tested good.
c. Measured transformer resistance through DMM, both good and questionable had same measurements both VAC powered and Ohms while off.

4. Hooked up board to known working amplifier’s transformer. Blown fuse, no other visible damage.

Other things I may try:

1. Replace the power capacitors
2. Replace the output transistors again
3. There were a couple differences between my board and service manual schematic. Ex: R 76 and R 78 were not 820 Ohms, they were very close though. I wonder if there are any other changes?

Pic of the top of the board:

http://i.imgur.com/eypUxdS.jpg (http://imgur.com/eypUxdS)
Note: you can see the replaced resistors R76 and R78. They are both 820 Ohms and 4 watts.

Pic of the top of the board:

http://i.imgur.com/uaoS7Zb.jpg (http://imgur.com/uaoS7Zb)


Any other ideas?

jener8tionx
03-25-2013, 11:04 AM
Update: I removed the power caps and they were leaking. I have new ones on order (no the same brand). I remember from the days I was working for HK selling B-stock that there were problems with this brand of capacitor failing at a high rate. I assumed they were good before because I couldn't see any signs of leaking. I will report back once the new ones arrive and I get them on the board. I ordered Nichicon audio grade caps (647-UKW1J472MRD). **Edit: The caps in the picture demote where they were on the board. The upper right cap was in the lower left space on the board and the lower left cap was on the upper left place on the board. Image setting the board back down onto the caps.

http://i.imgur.com/aJcIbim.jpg (http://imgur.com/aJcIbim)

http://i.imgur.com/nEOk0UN.jpg (http://imgur.com/nEOk0UN)

RedCoat23
03-25-2013, 04:48 PM
Wow, they don't look good. I'd be very interested to see what success you have in tracking down the culprit - capacitor's or otherwise. So thanks in advance for 'rolliing up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty'. It's much appreciated. :)

rpatt
03-26-2013, 07:30 AM
Thanks for sharing your trouble shooting efforts. Ti Dome had his redone while it was still possible at Northridge, other than that I know of no one that's recovered a failed PS1400 plate amp. Good luck and please keep us informed.

jener8tionx
03-26-2013, 03:33 PM
Thanks for sharing your trouble shooting efforts. Ti Dome had his redone while it was still possible at Northridge, other than that I know of no one that's recovered a failed PS1400 plate amp. Good luck and please keep us informed.

It would be nice to get a look at a fixed or updated board. I wonder why fixing these things is such a PITA to get working again.

NickH
03-26-2013, 07:22 PM
Are you sure the brown stuff isn't some type of glue to give the caps some support other then the terminals? This is a pretty common practice.

Usually there is signs of pressure in the can like bulging. Or the just short and burst. But by reading your post it doesn't seem the be a power supply filter issue. Its something in the amp circuit or driver. Do you have a schematic?

jener8tionx
03-26-2013, 08:21 PM
Are you sure the brown stuff isn't some type of glue to give the caps some support other then the terminals? This is a pretty common practice.

Usually there is signs of pressure in the can like bulging. Or the just short and burst. But by reading your post it doesn't seem the be a power supply filter issue. Its something in the amp circuit or driver. Do you have a schematic?

It could be glue, but it looks like it is coming from below the pins in the capacitor (especially the top right one). If the cap was bad it could send a DC ripple into the circuit causing all kinds of problems not limited to the power supply area of the board. When I test the caps with a DMM I got a short in the cap on the top right. The others tested at 3M ohms, 3M ohms, and 5M ohms.

Here is the service manual link which includes a schematic:

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/ServiceManual/Ps1400 Sub SM.pdf

jener8tionx
03-30-2013, 08:27 AM
Update: Still stumped.

I put in the new capacitors and this time Q17 blew up and then before I could even flip the switch, the fuse blew. See picture below with the offending transistor circled and you can see the new caps as well.

I took all of the power transistors out and fired it back up (with yet another fuse -- I'm getting low!). No pops or blown fuses. I was able to get my DMM in there to measure some voltages.

V+ 50V
V- -49.9V
+15v cycling between ~13v and ~16v
-15v -10v

No clue what the problem is. Maybe to voltages are off because I have the power transistors out and they aren't drawing power, but I suspect that some component is either open or shorted and/or a voltage regulator is bad. I guess I will take a break for a bit and then come back and do a ton of voltage measurements and try to figure out what the problem is.

http://i.imgur.com/M40dSlt.jpg (http://imgur.com/M40dSlt)

Don C
03-30-2013, 10:28 AM
Once you've looked at all of the electrolytic caps, those tantalum caps would be my next suspects. The orange and blue dipped ones right in front. C104 and C109, can't see the designation on the blue one, but in my limited experience it's worth checking them. Edited to show which ones I mean.

rpatt
05-23-2013, 04:18 AM
Update: Still stumped.

I put in the new capacitors and this time Q17 blew up and then before I could even flip the switch, the fuse blew. See picture below with the offending transistor circled and you can see the new caps as well.

I took all of the power transistors out and fired it back up (with yet another fuse -- I'm getting low!). No pops or blown fuses. I was able to get my DMM in there to measure some voltages.

V+ 50V
V- -49.9V
+15v cycling between ~13v and ~16v
-15v -10v

No clue what the problem is. Maybe to voltages are off because I have the power transistors out and they aren't drawing power, but I suspect that some component is either open or shorted and/or a voltage regulator is bad. I guess I will take a break for a bit and then come back and do a ton of voltage measurements and try to figure out what the problem is.

Did you make any progress?

gferrell
05-23-2013, 02:01 PM
Usually if you have one shorted transistor and fuses are still blowing one of the other ones is shorted. Do you have schematics?