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rdgrimes
01-26-2011, 02:35 PM
All the docking gear is part of the standard PS1400 packaging.

gferrell
01-26-2011, 02:48 PM
Cool, 101 pages!

Titanium Dome
01-26-2011, 04:09 PM
Cool, 101 pages!

And over 1500 posts. Who'd have thought it would go this long? It's actually the first thread I ever started here.

Eaulive
01-26-2011, 05:54 PM
I read it all..................





NOT!!!!! :eek:

gferrell
01-26-2011, 06:49 PM
TD, your a good man! Full of knowledge. I have friends in So Cal but never been there. If I ever do, I hope you invite me by for a listen. I'll bring the vino.

rpatt
01-26-2011, 07:15 PM
I wonder how many people ended up buying PS speakers after discovering them in this thread?

MikeBrewster77
01-26-2011, 07:39 PM
I wonder how many people ended up buying PS speakers after discovering them in this thread?

<---- :wave:

Titanium Dome
01-26-2011, 10:01 PM
TD, your a good man! Full of knowledge. I have friends in So Cal but never been there. If I ever do, I hope you invite me by for a listen. I'll bring the vino.

Well full of something anyway... Let's call it "experience" okay? Full of experience, that's the ticket.

Anytime you're out here, PM me before you come and you can hear everything. In fact that goes for most of you.

rdgrimes
01-27-2011, 07:16 AM
No affiliation:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PCM800-Mounting-Brackets-PT800-NEW-/350434829685?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51978b2575

KCM
01-27-2011, 08:46 AM
I wonder how many people ended up buying PS speakers after discovering them in this thread?


<-------Me, too. :coolness:

Titanium Dome
01-27-2011, 08:51 AM
No affiliation:

http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PCM800-Mounting-Brackets-PT800-NEW-/350434829685?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51978b2575

Wow, what a deal! I can't believe these aren't already gone!

I wonder if they even know for sure what they're selling? It's clear to me they do not, or they're just amazingly inept.

EDIT: It's none of the following hardware pictured in their auction. See next post.

If it's the accessory box that comes with the PT800, it's not going to have the pillars, long bolts, or connecting straps pictured. It'll only have the hanging brackets, rubber bumpers, and one Allen wrench. The fact that the finish is listed as "black" leads me to believe it's only the PT800 hanging hardware.

If anyone from msshifi reads this, you need to be less ignorant. This is a blatant misrepresentation.

The pillars, long bolts, and connecting straps come from the PS1400 box. And 10 pounds? Really? A PT800 accessory pack is less than a pound and a PS1400 pack is less than two. $19.78 standard shipping? C'mon. That's ridiculous.

If I paid $55 for the kit plus nearly $20 for shipping and all I got was a small box, a thin sheet of packing foam, two black brackets, four small adhesive bumpers, and an Allen wrench, I'd be furious. I'd rip a hole deep and wide in their feedback and file a complaint with ebay. (Yes, I know what I just wrote, and I know how important it would be to ebay to do the right thing. :moon: )

Until msshifi either gets its s#!t together and corrects its listing language to reflect what it's actually selling, or it can demonstrate it's selling everything pictured in the graphics it took out of the Performance Series manual, I advise everyone to avoid this questionable (or deliberately misleading) listing.

Titanium Dome
01-27-2011, 08:59 AM
After a moment's reflection, it dawned on me that msshifi is not selling anything that's in the picture. Nothing!

I actually have two boxes of PCM800s sitting on a shelf, and to correct one thing I wrote earlier, they probably do weigh close to 10 pounds.

Here's what they're actually selling. It would have been easy to take this out of the Performance Series manual, too.

So if you want to spend over $70 on two metal brackets, PM me and I'll sell you a NIB pair for much less.

rdgrimes
01-27-2011, 10:19 AM
I had my doubts when I posted that listing link, but I figured everyone here was smart enough to question it.

Titanium Dome
01-27-2011, 10:55 AM
I had my doubts when I posted that listing link, but I figured everyone here was smart enough to question it.

As much as folks here have expressed a desire to get the stacking hardware, I didn't want anyone to get burned for $70 and face disappointment. :(

rdgrimes
01-27-2011, 10:59 AM
I'll guess that there won't be any illumination forthcoming from the selling store. But absent any photos of the actual items I'd also assume it's corner brackets. there's a pathway in the "report item" feature at eBay for dealing with misrepresentations.

Mike Ronesia
01-27-2011, 12:45 PM
<-------Me, too. :coolness:

I'm not sure if it was here or AVS but I do know it was TDome and all of his glowing reviews. :applaud: I did read this whole thread over the course of a couple of months a couple of years ago.:blink:

Mike Ronesia
01-27-2011, 12:55 PM
I found some 1/2" thick ,black fiberglass sheet at work and had the pieces cut on a waterjet yesterday. Drilled the holes and I'm good to go :bouncy:

I made some out of wood blocks and wrapped them in aluminum flashing to mount 2 of my PS800's on my L8400's and it looks OK. I just used some spray adhesive for the bottom piece. The camera flash picks up all the little defects but in real life it's not bad. The only hard part was taking the drill to the subs. I hate defacing things and the tops will never be the same again.

:cheers: Here's to hopping my PS1400's come with the hardware.

http://www.underexposed.us/images/AV-010.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/AV-008.jpg

Mike Ronesia
01-27-2011, 01:08 PM
most

I think we know who you're talking about.

http://avatars.jurko.net/uploads/avatar_23280.gif

Titanium Dome
01-28-2011, 01:16 AM
I'm not sure if it was here or AVS but I do know it was TDome and all of his glowing reviews. :applaud: I did read this whole thread over the course of a couple of months a couple of years ago.:blink:

Sometimes I'll do a search for something and it takes me to someplace in this thread where I haven't been in a long time, and I'll see stuff I wrote that I don't even remember--sometimes in answer to the very thing I'm trying to find out. :eek:

Then I'm like, oh frac! I'm losing it, slowly but surely, I'm losing it. :screwy:

Titanium Dome
01-28-2011, 01:17 AM
I think we know who you're talking about.

http://avatars.jurko.net/uploads/avatar_23280.gif

:D Now everyone's going, "Does he mean me?"

NO, I mean that other guy. Heh-heh, heh-heh.

grumpy
01-28-2011, 09:25 AM
"Hey Butthead, what is teenspirit?"
"You mean you don't know. Dude, then I'm not gonna tell you."
Now shut up..., or I'll tell everyone about your Winger t-shirt.

mikebake
01-28-2011, 01:53 PM
I wonder how many people ended up buying PS speakers after discovering them in this thread?

<--------:)

At least I think so; hell, I don't remember. Must be losing it along with Dome.

Titanium Dome
01-28-2011, 07:28 PM
<--------:)

At least I think so; hell, I don't remember. Must be losing it along with Dome.

You're going to have to sprint to catch up with me. :p

The upside of losing it is that you just plain enjoy more and more as reality detaches from your declining corpus. :D

Titanium Dome
01-28-2011, 07:32 PM
I made some out of wood blocks and wrapped them in aluminum flashing to mount 2 of my PS800's on my L8400's and it looks OK. I just used some spray adhesive for the bottom piece. The camera flash picks up all the little defects but in real life it's not bad. The only hard part was taking the drill to the subs. I hate defacing things and the tops will never be the same again.

:cheers: Here's to hopping my PS1400's come with the hardware.



Mark,

Your dedication to quality shows in your work. There's nothing to excuse in your execution. They look really nice. Here's hoping the real thing exhibits the same commitment. :)

Mike Ronesia
01-28-2011, 11:29 PM
Mark,

Your dedication to quality shows in your work. There's nothing to excuse in your execution. They look really nice. Here's hoping the real thing exhibits the same commitment. :)

Thanks Doug,

The PS's are about a week out and I am starting to get excited. Holding off on bringing them home until the 14th might just be too hard. I was going to be on vacation that week but the boss moved it because he couldn't provide cover for me so now my plan of quality play time while Tammy was at work is postponed until the first of March. :(

The real thing is going to be sweeet! :bouncy: :D

Titanium Dome
03-19-2011, 07:27 PM
FWIW, I've had extensive ear time with 250Ti, and maybe a pristine pair with solid drivers would be competitive, but I like the Ti inverted domes much, much better than the kit in the 250Ti, and the smooth-domed Ti tweeter, too. I guess just the larger (250Ti) cabinet volume gets better bass from the 14 and it definitely looks better. :yes:

Actually, I'm on a long, slow journey to putting Performance Series drivers in L250 cabs and actively quad-amping them. That should be the best of both (or the worst).


This journey continued today with Grumpy doing most of the walking. We hooked up the BSS-366T that he had updated the firmware on, and after several changes in equipment, connections, and placement we got rolling. I took a few pictures, which I will upload later along with more PT250 speculation.

rpatt
03-20-2011, 05:36 AM
Looking forward to the results.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:10 PM
Disclaimer: these are cell phone photos, so don't tell me they suck.

Here's the L250 cab lying down with the Performance Series drivers in place. The drivers are resting on foam gaskets to generate a seal and to allow the wires to be routed through the front for testing.

NOTHING we're doing here today has anything to do with final set up and calibration, so idiotic questions will be ignored. This is a chance to test the equipment together (enclosure, drivers, BSS Omnidrive, amps, London Architect, source) to make sure we can justify the extensive work that lies ahead.

If it looks like the BSS unit is all we hope it is, then it makes sense to do the rest: actively quad-amp Performance Series drivers in a modified L250 cabinet.

The cabinet is placed on the floor so that later the mic can be hung overheard. Obviously this restricts the rear port, and we're opting at this point to use the poorly refoamed LE14H-1 that came with the L250 for these tests. A better LE14H-x driver will be used if there is a final version.

Remember, this is just to test all the parts and get comfortable with the equipment.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:16 PM
Now that I've made all the connections from the drivers to the amps, from the amps to the BSS, and the BSS to the source, it's good to have a second pair of eyes follow the trail. Let's not blow a tweeter on the first attempt.

Grumpy checks it out.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:19 PM
Audiophiles and perfectionists make sure that power cords and speaker wire and interconnects don't lie on top of each other and get all mixed together. Obviously, we're unconcerned. :p

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:23 PM
Eventually the four channels (four drivers) go back to the BSS unit via balanced cables.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:27 PM
Here's a little tour of the front of the BSS unit: left, center, right.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:32 PM
The red lights are on for 5 and 6, indicating they're muted, since we're only doing a four-way here.

On the display you can see the initial crossover points displayed. It looks pretty, but the final product was quite a bit different. Grumpy may want to show the final, but since we're not doing this for real, there's no point in showing it here. It's too misleading. We were just learning and testing. The key is the darn thing works, and it works pretty well.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:35 PM
The software is Windows based, but Grumpy has it on his MacBook Pro running in Parallels. It worked well. There are a number of screens, but we spent the most time here. I looked, he touched. All in all it's a cool tool, and it's a free download. Of course, you need the BSS hardware for it to actually work on anything, so it's free but worthless unless you spent a few $$$$ on hardware that can use it.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 07:53 PM
The results were better than expected given the crude nature of the experiment. Grumpy posted in the BSS-366T thread here:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29883-Bss-fds-336t&p=309019&viewfull=1#post309019

His results are below, and the PS1400/PT800 graphs are below that. Now, to get the PT250 upright, with drivers properly mounted, wiring in place, openings sealed, proper amps engaged, and in a worthy environment, and we'll do this thing for real. We'll see how hard the combined PS1400/PT800 is to beat.

EDIT: Okay, you'll have to turn your head or your monitor.

rdgrimes
03-20-2011, 07:58 PM
One thing that electronics don't measure is the effect of the time-aligned baffle on the human ear. Something that the PS series lacks. This will fall into one of those "hard to define" somethings that you hear but can't explain. Looking forward to more progress on this worthy project.

mikebake
03-20-2011, 08:06 PM
Audiophiles and perfectionists make sure that power cords and speaker wire and interconnects don't lie on top of each other and get all mixed together. Obviously, we're unconcerned. :p
Apparently frequently I am neither.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2011, 08:15 PM
Apparently frequently I am neither.

It's a lot of work, and they fight me every inch of the way. As long as I can get the ends right, I'm not too concerned about the middles. Maybe after I retire I'll have time to be that AR. :)

grumpy
03-20-2011, 10:02 PM
We'll see how hard the combined PS1400/PT800 is to beat. My guess is: pretty damn hard. But this pair might look better doing it :D

In my limited experience measuring speakers, measuring the time delay
isn't so difficult, it's -interpreting- the measurement and doing something
useful with the data. Nice thing with a unit like the BSS is that it is possible
to "easily" experiment and get a feel for what sounds and measures "better".
(noting that I am not defining "easily" or "better" by intention)

We did -not- have time to fool with the "auto alignment" feature of the
unit, but that might be an interesting start regarding any attempt at
time-aligning drivers mounted on a fixed plane... something that
isn't easily or casually done, particularly in the analog domain.

(soapbox warning)

I would like to comment that using a complicated setup of two $3K DSP boxes
(originally) and multiple (8) amp channels to drive a 4-way mash-up of older cabs
and newer drivers of JBL design isn't a particularly cost effective route, or a path I'd
personally recommend that anyone follow or attempt to duplicate. Pretty much ever.
Nor is this project an attempt to naively demonstrate how "simple" it is to throw quality
drivers together, "fix" things digitally, and blow away what is already a well integrated
and very fine sounding system... to think so would be an extreme disservice to the
team that poured their labor and experience into such a system as well as their
achieving a reasonable value/quality price point... a difficult challenge indeed.

That said, it -is- fun to experiment and to demonstrate one's own element of handiwork,
especially when it appears not to have been a failure :). This type of system does
allow for fairly rapid experimentation cycles... and also -allows- for a great amount of
undirected, naive, unadvised tweaking (i.e., one can spend the time to adjust for a
ruler flat response at one mic location... and find that the system sounds like sh*t).
So... no substitution for an education prior to flexing such power.

(soapbox spiel over )

Frankly, I'd be delighted if the end result sounded as good as the PT800/1400 combo...
anything beyond that would be icing on the cake.

rpatt
03-21-2011, 05:31 AM
Very interesting project. Please keep us updated on the progress.

Titanium Dome
03-21-2011, 11:14 AM
My guess is: pretty damn hard. But this pair might look better doing it :D



Frankly, I'd be delighted if the end result sounded as good as the PT800/1400 combo...
anything beyond that would be icing on the cake.

My guess is that it will sound better IF we don't screw it up. Certain elements of the process have the potential for improvement due to better available resources at our disposal. Certainly the top two drivers are better, and the midbass driver has great synergy with them. The better electronics, dedicated quad amping, and balanced connectors all have the potential for making improvements, subtle though they may be. Plus, the old cabinet will definitely dress them up better.

Or at least I can dream that the time and $$ spent will produce something worth the effort. :)

grumpy
03-21-2011, 01:18 PM
Make no mistake, I'm expecting icing :D

JBL 4645
05-10-2011, 10:04 PM
I like that BSS FDS 366 T OMNIDRIVE price is a bit steep. I like the front layout readout displays.:)

Titanium Dome
05-15-2011, 09:49 PM
Thanks goodness I've got grumpy to interpret it. It's all Greek (or Chinese) to me. We may get a run at the PT250 this upcoming weekend if I can get some time off from the ol' boss.

jblsound
05-16-2011, 05:16 AM
Thanks goodness I've got grumpy to interpret it. It's all Greek (or Chinese) to me. We may get a run at the PT250 this upcoming weekend if I can get some time off from the ol' boss.

I thought you WERE the boss.

timc
05-16-2011, 06:24 AM
TiDome: What do you think about the soundquality of the BSS? It is on my shortlist for my own system (stereo 2 way + stereo sub). There is no one around where i live that has a demo unit.

I'm only asking about the sound quality now, not considering reliability and functionality.

Cheers Tim.

Titanium Dome
06-11-2011, 09:01 PM
So today grumpy and I made a big step forward in that we got the 908Ti and 904Ti drivers mounted in the 250 enclosures. Grumpy soldered the wires in place with his ultra high-end soldering rig, worth about 100X my Big Lots unit. We also replaced the LE14enstein drivers with really nice LE14H-1 drivers from one of my pairs of 240Tis.

Because the local expert woodworking shop wanted $50 each to replicate the 044-1 housing in MDF so I could router a hole in the middle of it, I said, "Uh no," and in the process was left with no TM025/EOS Waveguide mounting plate, so we grabbed the 044Ti units out of the 240Ti as well.

Unfortunately

The 044Ti won't fit in the 044-1 housing.
The 044-1 housing screws in from the back while the 044Ti housing bolts in from the front.
The TM025 won't mount in either housing.


Fortunately

Home Depot has screws that are slim enough to fit into the 044Tti threaded mounting holes without stripping out the threads.
The mounting holes in the 044Ti mounting bracket align with the screw holes inside the L250 cabinet.
We were able to mount the 044Ti enclosure and driver without any worrisome complications, and they can still be returned to normal use in the 240Ti if need be.


So now the driver complement is

LE14H-1
908Ti
904Ti
044Ti


Next time we get together, I'll have them moved downstairs and connected to four Hafler SR amps (three SR2300 and one SR2600 for the LE14H-1s). The amps will be connected to four channels of the BSS active units, and those will be connected to ???? perhaps the Citation 5.0 as a pre. Then we'll ("we" meaning grumpy) tweak the heck out of it and see what we have.

At some point, I still want to get the TM025 and EOS Waveguide in there, but we'll see when that happens. It's also possible that I might experiment with a sub in addition to these four-way active beasties. After all, the BSS 366 units will still have two unused channels... :D

Grumpy got some pictures.

Titanium Dome
06-11-2011, 09:03 PM
TiDome: What do you think about the soundquality of the BSS? It is on my shortlist for my own system (stereo 2 way + stereo sub). There is no one around where i live that has a demo unit.

I'm only asking about the sound quality now, not considering reliability and functionality.

Cheers Tim.

Hi Tim. I think the sound quality is just fine. However, I'd defer to grumpy's opinion on this, since his ears are much more discerning than mine. If he says the quality is acceptable, then you can take it as gospel.

rdgrimes
06-12-2011, 07:12 AM
Grumpy got some pictures.

Prove it.

Mike Ronesia
06-12-2011, 02:07 PM
Pictures please. :applaud:

Titanium Dome
06-12-2011, 06:04 PM
This is the operator calling for Mr. Grumpy. Please pick up the nearest courtesy phone.

grumpy
06-13-2011, 06:56 AM
Can you hear Carly Simon singing while visualizing Heinz ketchup flowing at an annoyingly
slow pace? Sorry to delay visual gratification.

I'm not really fond of the photos, but here you go.

LE14 trim ring was just placed on top to see how it might look.

Although much effort was applied to ensure the mounting screws
were aligned with the vertical surface (side), the asymmetry of
the cabinet and the non-inline arrangement of the driver holes
does make for an odd illusion. (rotating the drivers 45deg would
probably look better, but then there would be serious interference
with the original mounting holes, which do not line up with the
PT driver requirements). Black rings and hardware? Grille?
Rotate the drivers from vertical so the screws visually line up
better? Hmm...

5165551654

rdgrimes
06-13-2011, 07:41 AM
Aligning the mount holes with plumb might be the most sensible. But what happens if you lay a straight edge down though the center line of all drivers, then align the holes with that?

grumpy
06-13-2011, 11:00 AM
Aligning the mount holes with plumb might be the most sensible....which is precisely what was done. The result looks a bit... wonky.



But what happens if you lay a straight edge down though the center line of all drivers, then align the holes with that? yes, this paraphrases my pondering as well.
It doesn't quite work, but an approximation might work better visually.

Of course, this can be decided later (post listening/testing/listening/...)
One of the ideas thrown about was to cut out a section of the baffle that would
allow multiple replacement sections to be tried out... tighter driver grouping,
vertical alignment, ... but I think we figured it was better to -do- something rather
than talk about what could be done :)

rdgrimes
06-13-2011, 11:08 AM
Cutting baffle = BAD.

Drivers not being in vertical alignment is the problem. JBL had it right when they just rotated the drivers 45'.

You could use a suitable filler to close the old holes and drill new ones to allow the 45' rotation.

Just leaving the grills on is one solution. ;)

Robh3606
06-13-2011, 12:04 PM
They are offset not much you can do

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
06-13-2011, 12:18 PM
I don't have a problem with the way it looks. If I get a suitable mounting plate for the TM025 and EOS Waveguide, it's got to be mounted perfectly horizontal. That means its center will be offset from the 904Ti and its mounting screws will be straight up and down. So, all the drivers will follow suit.

If I fabricate a trim ring for the LE14H-1, then it will share the same fate. :)

Titanium Dome
06-13-2011, 12:29 PM
Cutting baffle = BAD.

Drivers not being in vertical alignment is the problem. JBL had it right when they just rotated the drivers 45'.

You could use a suitable filler to close the old holes and drill new ones to allow the 45' rotation.

Just leaving the grills on is one solution. ;)

One thing we focused on was reversibility. Hence, no baffle cutting at this stage and also no filling and drilling of the original holes and T-nuts. The layout of the mounting holes on the 904Ti drivers is so close to the originals that the t-nuts would have to be driven out in order for new holes to be drilled. I'm not sure how many drillings and fillings the compressed particle board would take, especially if the original holes needed to be redrilled and t-nuts reinstalled.

For now, we'll just focus on sound: good, solid solder connections (grumpy's pretty good at this); clean, stable mounts; cabinet and doghouse integrity; and good integration of the active crossovers.

If it's nothing special, then the original components go back in, and off to sale goes an L250 pair.

grumpy
06-13-2011, 12:46 PM
cutting baffle = asking for problems, yes indeed. BAD? shrug. The baffle is not all that
badass to begin with, but it would have been a lot of extra work for a small amount
of flexibility... and hacking the baffle would exceed the point of no return.

Grilles were my idea too :) Dome wants to see the drivers for some weird reason ;)

So yes, 45deg would help, or possibly canting the orientation by eye,
approximately splitting the difference between vertical and the angle of
the sloping side. Can be tried later.

Then there's the trump card:
I don't have a problem with the way it looks. :)

rdgrimes
06-13-2011, 01:28 PM
In the interest of completeness, shouldn't you be using LE14H-3 woofs in these? :confused:

Titanium Dome
06-13-2011, 01:31 PM
Okay, I'm going to get some of these glow lights and wrap them around the drivers. "Problem" solved! :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
06-13-2011, 01:35 PM
In the interest of completeness, shouldn't you be using LE14H-3 woofs in these? :confused:

You offering to donate a pair?

I'm pretty sure the LE14H-1 works very well in this cabinet, and, like hand grenades and horseshoes, it's "close enough." :)

rdgrimes
06-13-2011, 01:39 PM
You offering to donate a pair?

This from the guy who owns more LE14H-3s than anyone else in the world. If for no other reason, you should use them cause they are prettier.

Looking at those drivers in the Teak cabinet, they seem to be asking for piano black finish.

grumpy
06-13-2011, 01:49 PM
we -gotta- figure out how to put blue-LED lit 077's in there then :applaud:
...they don't even have to work

(ah, that's a joke, son)

80sKid
06-13-2011, 07:05 PM
If the experiment goes well and the sound is promising...

You might consider having new cabinets made. That would both solve the problem of hacking the L250 cabinet and allow you to spare a pair of legendary speakers from being lost from the world (truly something worth considering, IMO).

I'd even wager that the resale of the L250s would cover the cabinet and crossover costs.

Personally, if I were mounting the drivers, I would stick with the screws in the classic four "corners". I think the vertical alignment looks funny.

The silver ring for the the woofer definitely helps the appearance and prevents the LE14 form looking like an odd man out. Were it my project, I would definitely plan on putting that ring on there permanently.

I'm enjoying following this project! :bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
06-25-2011, 10:22 AM
someone got around to this project. way to go Dome.. looks interesting. Russ told me today that you were doing this and i had to check it out

Go man go.......:applaud:

JBLnsince1959
06-25-2011, 10:28 AM
Dome, it should sound pretty good based on my own experiences in this direction... Just getting everything in a single box alone should make a big difference in sound compared to standard PS setup, also the larger box for the woofer will make a nice difference too... need to put the newer woofers in there my friend...

Tweeter may be a real bitch..
are you going to design new passive CC crossovers???

will watch the progress

Titanium Dome
06-25-2011, 02:38 PM
Dome, it should sound pretty good based on my own experiences in this direction... Just getting everything in a single box alone should make a big difference in sound compared to standard PS setup, also the larger box for the woofer will make a nice difference too... need to put the newer woofers in there my friend...

Tweeter may be a real bitch..
are you going to design new passive CC crossovers???

will watch the progress

Four-way active my friend: BSS FDS 366T Omnidrive Compact Plus. We'll use four of the six channels in each unit. It's like 100 crossovers in one, plus EQ.

Great to see you!

Titanium Dome
07-01-2011, 04:05 PM
Grumpy came over today and we breathed life into the PT250s. They sounded really, really good. Sadly now, I feel the XPL200s suffer in comparison, and my still original L250s are pale, pale, pale by comparison.

He has some screen shots he might share, and I'll get a few snapshots over the weekend.

We had a great time just listening to music on these wonderful PT250s. There's the possibility of more tweaking, but right now, they're too good to work on. Music must prevail!

Rusnzha
07-01-2011, 06:34 PM
Congratulations dome, wish I could hear them. Ricks PT800s (PS1400s?) are starting to go but good. I have never heard such things from a 2.1 set-up. How do your PS250s sound next to the 2 boxes.

80sKid
07-02-2011, 12:56 AM
Very cool.

Dome, your comment that this new speaker creation is proving to be superior to both the XPL200 and original L250 is very encouraging! Especially when you say you wanted to simply listen and didn't feel a strong compulsion to fiddle with the crossovers.

It seems to me that you're creating something that several of us will want to have in our own home! :)

So, you'll be ready to take orders for a small production run of this unique speaker before the end of the year, right?! :D

maabx
07-02-2011, 07:26 AM
One of my PS1400 is dead. I think as a result of a power surge. Does anyone have a link to the service manual? The link on page 71 of this thread is no longer functional. There must be a fuse in the amp. Does anyone know the best way to get at the fuse??

Thanks, Mike

Titanium Dome
07-02-2011, 09:09 AM
One of my PS1400 is dead. I think as a result of a power surge. Does anyone have a link to the service manual? The link on page 71 of this thread is no longer functional. There must be a fuse in the amp. Does anyone know the best way to get at the fuse??

Thanks, Mike

Sorry to read that, but not surprised. PM me an email address, and I'll send the 3.3 MB file to you.

maabx
07-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Thank you Titanium Dome. Just sent you my email address.

Don C
07-02-2011, 12:26 PM
Here's a corrected direct link:
http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/ServiceManual/Ps1400%20Sub%20SM.pdf

JBLnsince1959
07-02-2011, 02:51 PM
OK Dome, now is the time for comparisions

2 questions
1. How does the PS 250 sound next to a regular 250 ( you mentioned a liitle - details)
2. more importantly how does it sound against a regular PS stack.

also, are you using the original 250 tweeter and woofer in here, if you are, do you plan to put all the PS tranducers in there???

great work.. wish I had been the first to do this ( still might depending on what you write )

maabx
07-02-2011, 03:09 PM
Thanks Don C for the corrected link.

The fuse was blown. And...it keeps blowing. Bummer. Does anyone have any clues as to which components I should check for failure? Is there a common failure mode on the PS1400? I'm pretty sure it was a surge, or low voltage condition that caused the problem.

Thanks for any help.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:04 AM
Here are two shots of the left PT250, with and without flash. The left XPL200A is next to it, in in these photos you can see the stack of gear that supports the XPLs.

Top to bottom:

Zenith DVD player (LG manufactured) used as transport with digital out
Niles IPC6 power sequencer
JBL DX-1 external crossover with XPL200A cards
Fogate Audionics FAP T1
Fosgate Audionics FAA 1000.5 (four channels driving XPLs)
Fosgate Audionics FAA 1000.5 (two channels driving FS 400 subs)
Nintendo Wii
Fosgate Audionics FS 400 sub (with LE14H-1 inside)

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:07 AM
Here's the right PT250, just to prove I have two.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:12 AM
To answer the question "What drivers did I use?" the tweeters are 044Tis that I took out of a pair of 240Tis I have. The diaphragms were replaced and new pads installed in 2003 according to the guy I bought 240Tis from. The poor 044-1 drivers they replaced were both abused and worn out; they will not be missed.

Grumpy and I retrofitted the housing to work in the L250 cabinet. We also discovered the need to reverse its polarity to get it to play nice with the other drivers.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:16 AM
The wonderful 904Ti replaces the tired LE5-11. At 4313B's (long time ago) and GT's (recent) suggestion, I stuffed the dog house with extra batting for the 904Ti.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:24 AM
The equally wonderful 908Ti replaces the venerable 108H. I like the 108H, but the 908Ti in conjunction with the 904Ti and a Ti tweeter (044Ti in this case) just sound so much better.

The 908Ti's operational frequencies are fairly narrow in this application, but we found that it adds a lot to the overall sound and brings both bite and presence to the party. It's doghouse got some extra batting, too.

That big inverted dome does funny things with the camera's light optics. :)

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Everyone's seen the LE14H-1, but here it is again. These came from the donor 240Tis as well, having been refoamed in 2003. They'd sure look nice with that PS1400 trim ring on them. If anyone has a ring they'd like to sell, let me know. :yes: JBL does not have any, or so one rep said.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:43 AM
What's outside the box is as important as what's inside. The PT250 is a four-way, quad-amped, active external crossover design.

We left the original L250 crossover inside so the L250 can be returned to original condition if needed. No permanent modifications to the enclosures were made.

The original driver wires were rerouted and connected to four external Hafler amps that are controlled by two BSS 366T Omnidirve Compact plus units. These are six channel loudspeaker management systems, so only four channels are in use for this project. The BSS units and amps are connected by four pairs of balanced XLR cables, and each amp drives a specific pair of drivers: one drives both woofers, another both mid bass drivers, etc.

The system's pre is a Citation 5.0 in stereo mode with a Denon DVD2900 as the source.

That's lots of lights when everything is running.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:51 AM
Here's a flash photo with the body count.

In the rack:

Citation 5.0
BSS 366T controlling the right PT250 and the "A" channel on all the amps
BSS 366T controlling the left PT250 and the "B" channel on all the amps
Niles IPC12 power sequencer
Denond DVD2900
Unused (for now) karaoke mixer


The amps:

Hafler SR2300 (300W/ch @ 8 Ohms) for 044Ti drivers
Hafler SR2300 (300W/ch @ 8 Ohms) for 904Ti drivers
Hafler SR2300 (300W/ch @ 8 Ohms) fro 908Ti drivers
Hafler SR2600 (600W/ch @ 8 Ohms) for LE14H-2 drivers

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 11:54 AM
This may show the slopes and crossovers better. You can see how narrow the band is that the 908Ti covers. Grumpy has some actual graphs.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 12:00 PM
This dark, awkward shot shows the extra flexibility afford when the amps have individual gain for each channel. Each driver's gain is adjustable. That's pretty freakin' cool.

:bouncy:

80sKid
07-03-2011, 12:11 PM
Wow. Such gear porn! :)

The SPL capability of this system must be pretty crazy.

I find it interesting that you are adjusting driver balance with the amps, instead of the BSS crossover units. I would think the latter would provide much more consistently repeatable results.

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 12:16 PM
Perhaps grumpy will chime in with some added insight and maybe a graph or two. We both felt the effort paid off handsomely and that it's probably not done. It's just that after finally getting them up and running they sounded pretty darn good with minimal tweaking, and we just wanted to listen to music.

Fine tuning will certainly bring more to the experience, and we had a table and equipment in the way of complete enjoyment, but we played it loud and played it proud.

I also did some switching back and forth between the XPL200s and PT250s. We accomplished this by using the remote zone on the Citation 5.0 to feed the DX-1 inputs. Thus, both had the same source and pre, but not the same crossovers and amps. It took some futzing around to get a similar output level, and it was still not perfect, so that's a caveat. Nonetheless, I don't know how else to describe it other than sad. :( I mean, the XPLs should not be in the same room. :no: :crying:

Now that they're up and running, I'll work on cleaning up the spider's nest of wires, experiment a bit with some treatments at first reflection points, and keep working on getting a mounting plate made up for the TM025 tweeter and EOS Waveguide.

There's also a noise issue from the BSS units, as they are fan cooled just like a server, though not quite as loud. The Haflers are fan-cooled as well, but the fans rarely came on, even at crazy levels, and they were very quiet.

At some future date, we'll get back together and work on fine-tuning this already great sounding system!

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 12:20 PM
Your answer is below if you put the two together. :) I'm always in favor of enjoyment in the moment and improvement over time.


Wow. Such gear porn! :)

The SPL capability of this system must be pretty crazy.

I find it interesting that you are adjusting driver balance with the amps, instead of the BSS crossover units. I would think the latter would provide much more consistently repeatable results.


Perhaps grumpy will chime in with some added insight and maybe a graph or two. We both felt the effort paid off handsomely and that it's probably not done. It's just that after finally getting them up and running they sounded pretty darn good with minimal tweaking, and we just wanted to listen to music.


At some future date, we'll get back together and work on fine-tuning this already great sounding system!

Titanium Dome
07-03-2011, 12:49 PM
As a general exercise, grumpy and I both feel that this would be far more work and expense than it's worth. If you've got all the parts and the necessary testing gear, then why not?

This is really a sum of its parts achievement. Here's a cost break down:


L250 pair $650 and a 100 mile round trip
PT800 pair for parts $250 pus shipping
three hafler SR2300 amps from the Hafler closing $1200 plus shipping
one Hafler SR2600 amp from the Hafler closing $550 plus shipping
240Ti pair donor of 044Ti and Le14H-1 pairs $450 local pick up
BSS 366T units $800 plus 80 mile round trip
Niles IPC12 $250 plus shipping
Denon DVD2900 barter
Citation 5.0 $650 plus 50 mile round trip
XLR cables $100 plus shipping


That's just shy of $5000 at my accumulated costs. Just the BSS 366T Omnidrive units themselves would be more than that at street prices today. Of course that doesn't count the cost of grumpy's test gear, his time and effort, his considerable travel, or the value of the avocados he brought.

Bottom line is we cannot simply drop in some Performance Series drivers and call it good. This is a true 4-way, active quad-amped system, and it's not cheap or simple. It is however, very cool, and I hope someday we get it right up to its real potential.

I want to particularly give thanks to grumpy who served as Virgil to my Dante on this journey. http://users.erols.com/antos/dante/divine_com.html He went way above and beyond in this project, and I would have effed it up many times over without his calm and thorough approach. Dude!

80sKid
07-03-2011, 12:56 PM
I certainly understand and in your shoes, I too would be anxious to fire them up and start listening. :rockon2:

rdgrimes
07-03-2011, 01:00 PM
Bottom line is we cannot simply drop in some Performance Series drivers and call it good. This is a true 4-way, active quad-amped system, and it's not cheap or simple. It is however, very cool, and I hope someday we get it right up to its real potential.


I wonder what the comparative cost would be with a custom built passive XO and a single big-assed amp to drive them? Seems like a modified 250ti XO would be quite doable? So if someone started with a pair of 250ti, the costs would only be for 4 drivers and XO work.

While your project is great, it may not be representative of what is actually needed to build a very decent PS250.

grumpy
07-03-2011, 03:43 PM
Virgil and Dante? :rotfl:
How about Beetle Bailey and Dagwood :)
(thanks for the kind words)

...and sure, once a finished design was implemented
passively, one could reproduce it with less expense.
Step 1, find someone interested with the knowledge,
experience, and proper tools to do so. This was just
fun... That sounds like real work... and to Beetle
Bailey, well, you get the picture.

I'll post some plots when I fire up my computer.

80sKid
07-05-2011, 07:23 AM
One has to wonder if the PS250/PT250's sonic edge would diminish with a passive design. It could be that a considerable part of its sonic splendor comes from the active design and the multitude of amps.

grumpy
07-05-2011, 07:54 AM
swept sine in-room response, and current crossover as measured
(ignore the rising levels below each crossover frequency and anything
below 30-40Hz)

51907
51908

A much more (probably over) corrected crossover/EQ was
implemented weeks earlier, but figured it was better to keep it simple
at first, then work on time alignment (not explicitly done), and further
adjustments at a later date.

Amplifiers were all set at a nominal (easy to return to) setting
then slightly bumped during listening... more as tone controls
than anything... no one wants to listen to a truly flat system
at home.

No hiss (without putting my ear inches from the tweeter)
and no hum (after grounding metal shell on the RCA/XLR adapter).

Titanium Dome
07-05-2011, 08:57 AM
One has to wonder if the PS250/PT250's sonic edge would diminish with a passive design. It could be that a considerable part of its sonic splendor comes from the active design and the multitude of amps.

I'd put forth that the active crossovers and (over)amping design are the main contributors. Certainly a stock L250 complement of drivers would sound better if given the same treatment.

Nonetheless, the 044Ti, 904Ti, and 908Ti are better drivers and impart a superior sound, so they contribute as well.

Titanium Dome
07-05-2011, 09:05 AM
a very decent PS250.


the PS250/PT250's .

Performance Tower = PT800
Performance Center = PC600
Performance Subwoofer = PS1400

Therefore, I'm calling this the PT250 based on its PT800 and L250 roots. :)

grumpy
07-07-2011, 12:08 PM
More 'PT250' implementation info:
(individual driver EQ, and nominal pre-EQ crossover)

51932
51930
51928
51929
51931

This is just to semi-document the process... the EQ settings were
determined while the system was on it's back in a garage... and
based on individually measured driver responses (w/o crossover).

I'm a bit surprised they carried to a standing system in another
environment as well as they did.

JBLnsince1959
07-07-2011, 02:12 PM
Dome.. how does the sound compare to a PT800 and PS1400 stacked together

Titanium Dome
07-07-2011, 08:38 PM
Dome.. how does the sound compare to a PT800 and PS1400 stacked together

That's hard to say. Even though I have both, they're in different rooms in different kinds of systems.

My four PS1400/PT800 stacks are part of a 5.1 surround system in a 32x32 open space with ceilings from 8' to 24' or more. The PT250s are a simple stereo set up in a 14.5x15.5x11.5 room.

The PS1400/PT800 is bi-amped, I suppose, due to the PS1400 having its own 400W amp, but everything else runs through passive crossovers at 125W/ch, unbalanced. The PT250 has active crossovers and 300W/ch for each of the top three drivers (that's 3x300 per side) and 600W/ch for the woofers, balanced.

That's a stark difference.

With those disclaimers, it's pretty clear to me that the LE14H-1s work better in the L250 enclosure than the LE14H-3s work in the PS1400 enclosure. They stretch out more and have a deeper reach. The extra cabinet volume is quite a benefit, as others have noted in their home-built cabs.

The 908Ti and 904Ti work very well. Though we have some more tweaking to do, I really like the way they sound in the L250 enclosure. It's not the cabinet volume, as they're in doghouses; it's the baffle shape and slope. They seem to be in even better harmony that when in the octagonal PT800 enclosure.

The 044Ti seems a bit hot to me. We've seen a few little anomalies with it that might not be present with the TM025. I'll keep looking for a resource to make a mounting plate for it, so we at least can swap it in to see if there's a difference.

The PS1400/PT800 combo is still the bang for the buck leader here, but I have to say that the PT250 is better in many important ways already, and a little more tweaking and a tweeter/waveguide swap may widen the gap even more.

**I'm not likely to carry a couple of stacks down to the music room or the PT250s up to the main level, so a direct comparison is not in the foreseeable future.**

grumpy
07-07-2011, 09:01 PM
Funny... now that I think about it, that EQ shown above (in the tweeter range) was
for the TM025 :o: ... no wonder we turned that amp down a bit (the 044Ti not really
being assisted efficiency-wise by a wave guide the way the TM025 is).

The FR shown above (#1595) (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?3272-JBL-Performance-Series&p=316372&viewfull=1#post316372) was with the amp attenuator dropped ~5-6dB after an initial FR
sweep plot showed the tweeter level was 'a bit' hot. On-axis, the two tweeters are pretty
flat in their intended range (which is why the level adjustment at the amp worked as well
as it did). This should get fixed in the BSS config so that the nominal amp settings are
back to a standard value for this system.

... Looking back at comparative PT800 measurements made in the same garage and location
as the proto-PT250 drivers/cab, the PT800 did seem to have both a slight/wide presence peak
(compared to the EQ'd TM025 in the PT250) and a more extended response... something
I'd like to look at next time I'm over (check to see what's causing the high end rolloff with
the 044Ti ... that -measured- response rolls off too regularly and quickly for me to accept it
as fact).

maabx
07-12-2011, 08:02 AM
Anyone know where I can purchase just the Amp for the PS1400?

grumpy
07-12-2011, 08:24 AM
I'd suggest a query in the "Marketplace" sub-forum, but no... unless you hit it lucky
on eBay, I would expect that a repair/replacement via JBL would be your only source
without resorting to an aftermarket replacement, or buying a whole sub. I say 'lucky'
on eBay as the amp (in my narrow view) seems to have been the weak link so parted
out units would likely -not- include a working amp. If you -are- able to get a unit or two
to part out, I know folks who might be interested in the LE14H-3's and trim rings :)

rdgrimes
07-12-2011, 08:42 AM
Anyone know where I can purchase just the Amp for the PS1400?
I would think that repairing rather than replacing is the only real option.

maabx
07-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Thanks for the advice. The output MOSFETs were fried on one of mine. Those have been replaced and now, instead of blowing fuses, the amp goes into protection.

What is the driver worth?

rdgrimes
07-12-2011, 08:48 AM
I had a good experience with these folks on repairing an HTPS400:

http://www.jbl-speaker.com/entrance.asp

maabx
07-12-2011, 09:42 AM
I had a good experience with these folks on repairing an HTPS400:

http://www.jbl-speaker.com/entrance.asp


Thanks. I'll give them a call.

Titanium Dome
07-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Thanks. I'll give them a call.

Then PM me when you're ready to sell the trim ring. I'm serious. This goes for anyone.

rdgrimes
08-11-2011, 08:18 AM
Does anyone remember what the PT800 corner mount brackets sold for originally when JBL was still selling them?

maabx
08-13-2011, 06:07 AM
Fount the following. It says MSRP $100.

http://www.msshifi.com/crazy-super-insane-sales/speakers/jbl-pcm800-mounting-brackets-for-pt800.html

rdgrimes
08-13-2011, 06:18 AM
Fount the following. It says MSRP $100.

http://www.msshifi. (http://www.msshifi.com/crazy-super-insane-sales/speakers/jbl-pcm800-mounting-brackets-for-pt800.html)
com/crazy-super-insane-sales/speakers/jbl-pcm800-mounting-brackets-for-pt800.html (http://www.msshifi.com/crazy-super-insane-sales/speakers/jbl-pcm800-mounting-brackets-for-pt800.html)

Yes, those guys are selling some so I was looking for a different source of information.
I found a couple old online retail prices of $39.95 from 3rd party sellers.

maabx
08-13-2011, 06:42 AM
OK. Here is another source. Says MSRP $50.

http://bestofaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=35_55&products_id=3851&osCsid=311aa9552661488c6e748eb74d5fab49

Titanium Dome
08-13-2011, 07:34 AM
Does anyone remember what the PT800 corner mount brackets sold for originally when JBL was still selling them?

Are you looking to buy some? I know someone. ;)

rdgrimes
08-13-2011, 07:50 AM
Idle curiosity only, it would just be more unused P.S. paraphernalia in the collection. A 1x4 and a few screws will accomplish the same thing. ;)

Titanium Dome
08-14-2011, 02:01 PM
Had a small group (grumpy, JBLaddict, and sdurani [from AVS]) over yesterday for some tweaking of the PT250s. A number of factors conspired to keep us from getting everything done, but with Sanjay's ears and grumpy's equipment, they're dialed in a little bit better than before.

We all had a wide-ranging discussion on room treatments, system integration, Floyd Toole, etc. Interesting stff.

We also looked at JBLaddict's Soundcraftsmen A400. What an interesting exploration that was.

He got a view of the ATI 2003 amps and a nice preview of their sound and operation with the K2s. Then we agreed as a group that via optical in the 24/192 DACs in the Outlaw 990 performed better than the analog out 24/96 DACs in the Oppo BDP-83SE running through the K2s. So crap on that! How do I get my extra $400 back?

There was some talk of taking the PT250s upstairs to compare to the K2s, but 500 pounds of equipment needing to be moved nixed that idea. The PT250s sound pretty darn good--a little better now--but we've more to do. Putting them in the same room as the K2s would require a complete recalibration and probably take the edge off our enthusiasm in the process.

The PT250 imaging and soundstage is really very, very good, as JBLaddict discovered when Sanjay put on Def Leppard Hysteria. Yes, we still listen to that kind of music. :D

Then we topped things off with Chicago dogs, root beer, and Roxy Music's Avalon on the Performance Series MCH system. :bouncy:

JBLAddict
08-14-2011, 03:06 PM
Thanks Doug for the usual hospitality, another good day at the West Coast home of JBL systems past present, and as we experienced yesterday....future :D

I can say the PT250 with external crossover handily beat the XPL200-DX1 combo, which should be no big surprise considering the 14" driver on the PT, markedly better inverted Ti mid-bass, updated Ti mid, and much larger cabinet, the integration was much richer, cohesive and wider in soundstage.

Between K2 S9900, XPL 200, full PS surround, and a complete Syn HT, and now the PT250, it's always difficult for me to keep my "kid in a candy store" mania at bay when at your home, wanting to try multiple discs on multiple systems :bouncy:

some day, it would be awesome to do a dedicated 2-channel A/B/C/D/E rotating in and out the K2, PT Stack, XPL, 3100, L7 in the same room/position. Probably not logistically reasonable, but would be a great nonetheless if possible. Having so many eras of JBL icons in one place makes this really tempting. :p

Mr. Widget
08-14-2011, 04:19 PM
Then we agreed as a group that via optical in the 24/192 DACs in the Outlaw 990 performed better than the analog out 24/96 DACs in the Oppo BDP-83SE running through the K2s. So crap on that! How do I get my extra $400 back?
Could you please explain the systems you were comparing? I don't quite follow.


Widget

Titanium Dome
08-14-2011, 09:16 PM
Could you please explain the systems you were comparing? I don't quite follow.


Widget

System: Oppo BDP-83SE > Outlaw 990 > ATI 2003 > JBL K2S9900

Option One: Oppo BDP-83SE using its 24/96 DACs to its analog outs to the Outlaw 990 analog ins and using its analog bypass to its balanced outs to the amps

Option Two: Oppo BDP-83SE using its digital optical out to the Outlaw 990 digital optical in then using the Outlaw 24/192 DACs to output to the balanced outputs

My (our) expectation was that the Oppo with its highly regarded DACs and analog stereo upgrades would be the better performer, especially given the somewhat long-in-the-tooth aspect of the Outlaw 990. Yet the older DACs were clearly more listenable.

Ergo, I want my $400 back from Oppo. (Yes, I know I'm not going to get it.) ;)

rdgrimes
08-15-2011, 05:20 AM
System: Oppo BDP-83SE > Outlaw 990 > ATI 2003 > JBL K2S9900

Option One: Oppo BDP-83SE using its 24/96 DACs to its analog outs to the Outlaw 990 analog ins and using its analog bypass to its balanced outs to the amps

Option Two: Oppo BDP-83SE using its digital optical out to the Outlaw 990 digital optical in then using the Outlaw 24/192 DACs to output to the balanced outputs

My (our) expectation was that the Oppo with its highly regarded DACs and analog stereo upgrades would be the better performer, especially given the somewhat long-in-the-tooth aspect of the Outlaw 990. Yet the older DACs were clearly more listenable.

Ergo, I want my $400 back from Oppo. (Yes, I know I'm not going to get it.) ;)
The Oppo's DAC is not "24/96", it functions with content up to 24/192, however this has nothing to do with what you hear. You could be hearing small differences in levels or some DSP in the Outlaw that hasn't been accounted for. Player settings with respect to SPDIF output could also be relevant. Also good to note that using stereo analog inputs in most AVRs will result in the audio being put through A-D-A conversion regardless of use of the "pure" setting. I can't say if this is also true of the Outlaw, possibly not. But you'd want to use the multi-channel analog inputs to avoid this conversion.

FWIW, the newer Oppo BDP-93 will match the BDP-83SE for analog quality, and the BDP-95 leaves it in the dust.

Titanium Dome
08-15-2011, 09:08 AM
The Oppo's DAC is not "24/96", it functions with content up to 24/192, however this has nothing to do with what you hear. You could be hearing small differences in levels or some DSP in the Outlaw that hasn't been accounted for. Player settings with respect to SPDIF output could also be relevant. Also good to note that using stereo analog inputs in most AVRs will result in the audio being put through A-D-A conversion regardless of use of the "pure" setting. I can't say if this is also true of the Outlaw, possibly not. But you'd want to use the multi-channel analog inputs to avoid this conversion.

FWIW, the newer Oppo BDP-93 will match the BDP-83SE for analog quality, and the BDP-95 leaves it in the dust.

You're right, it's listed as "32 bit." Other than that, since you weren't there, it's hard to respond to all the maybes and could bes in your precis, professor. :p Sometime when you're in LA you're welcome to have a firsthand experience. I'll even let you use the remote control and the SPL meter. :yes:

rdgrimes
08-15-2011, 09:58 AM
You're right, it's listed as "32 bit." Other than that, since you weren't there, it's hard to respond to all the maybes and could bes in your precis, professor. :p Sometime when you're in LA you're welcome to have a firsthand experience. I'll even let you use the remote control and the SPL meter. :yes:

I don't need no stinking meter. :p

I'll wager that the Outlaw has a superior analog board that would account for what you hear. The actual DAC chips have far less to do with it. To put it another way, the board is what makes it possible to hear the difference in DAC chips but all things being equal most people cant hear differences in DAC.

Make sure that in the Oppo, the "LPCM Rate Limit" is set to 192k so that the DAC is receiving full-res audio from the decoder. This will also ensure that full res PCM is sent out over SPDIF.

Most of what was developed for the 83SE was ported into the 93. The 95, comparatively speaking, is on steroids. You can sell that 83SE and pay for a 93 and more. But as demanding as you are, the 95 has your name written all over it.

Titanium Dome
08-15-2011, 10:08 AM
I don't need no stinking meter. :p

I'll wager that the Outlaw has a superior analog board that would account for what you hear. The actual DAC chips have far less to do with it. To put it another way, the board is what makes it possible to hear the difference in DAC chips but all things being equal most people cant hear differences in DAC.

Make sure that in the Oppo, the "LPCM Rate Limit" is set to 192k so that the DAC is receiving full-res audio from the decoder. This will also ensure that full res PCM is sent out over SPDIF.

Most of what was developed for the 83SE was ported into the 93. The 95, comparatively speaking, is on steroids. You can sell that 83SE and pay for a 93 and more. But as demanding as you are, the 95 has your name written all over it.

I've already got the 93 downstairs in the Two Jims Theatre, and at this point I've got four flippin' Oppo players of various vintages. I'm probably just going to go the separate DAC or DAC/pre route next and use one of those Oppos as a transport only.

Mr. Widget
08-15-2011, 11:01 AM
My (our) expectation was that the Oppo with its highly regarded DACs and analog stereo upgrades would be the better performer, especially given the somewhat long-in-the-tooth aspect of the Outlaw 990. Yet the older DACs were clearly more listenable.I guess you didn't read my review of the BDP83 SE on this forum... "highly regarded" I thought it was noticeably better than the standard 83, but only slightly.

As for the analog by-pass etc., I haven't heard any Outlaw gear, but of the dozens of AVRs and Pre-pros I have heard, not one had an analog by-pass or "pure audio" or whatever that ever really impressed me. Isn't your K2 system a dedicated two channel set up? Those speakers deserve a real 2 channel preamp.



I'll wager that the Outlaw has a superior analog board that would account for what you hear. The actual DAC chips have far less to do with it. To put it another way, the board is what makes it possible to hear the difference in DAC chips but all things being equal most people cant hear differences in DAC.Absolutely! But it is difficult to sell a circuit design... people love to buy numbers and flashy new names for the latest whiz bang chip set.

I agree with the points you made about possible settings issues or DSPs that might still be lurking in the Outlaw's circuit... "Professor" :D I would also suggest using a coax over optical. I have heard real improvements in going with S/PDIF over Toslink.


Widget

Mr. Widget
08-15-2011, 11:06 AM
I'm probably just going to go the separate DAC or DAC/pre route next and use one of those Oppos as a transport only.That's exactly what I would do. The K2s and ATIs deserve better. Check out a Bryston DAC or better yet the Berkeley Audio Design DAC. Any of your Oppos via S/PIDF into a great DAC and a real analog preamp will be a solid upgrade.


Widget

rdgrimes
08-15-2011, 11:16 AM
I guess you didn't read my review of the BDP83 SE on this forum... "highly regarded" I thought it was noticeably better than the standard 83, but only slightly.



BDP-83SE analog board:
52469

BDP-95 analog board:
52470

grumpy
08-15-2011, 12:18 PM
All of which has nothing to do with JBL Performance Series speakers. :) (I was late to the party and missed the Oppo/Outlaw comparo)

Titanium Dome
08-15-2011, 12:23 PM
I guess you didn't read my review of the BDP83 SE on this forum... "highly regarded" I thought it was noticeably better than the standard 83, but only slightly.

As for the analog by-pass etc., I haven't heard any Outlaw gear, but of the dozens of AVRs and Pre-pros I have heard, not one had an analog by-pass or "pure audio" or whatever that ever really impressed me. Isn't your K2 system a dedicated two channel set up? Those speakers deserve a real 2 channel preamp.

Absolutely! But it is difficult to sell a circuit design... people love to buy numbers and flashy new names for the latest whiz bang chip set.

I agree with the points you made about possible settings issues or DSPs that might still be lurking in the Outlaw's circuit... "Professor" :D I would also suggest using a coax over optical. I have heard real improvements in going with S/PDIF over Toslink.


Widget

I agree with your comments regarding coax, but my optical cable has a pretty yellow neon casing!

As for a "real two-channel amp," send me a couple on approval, and I'll let you know what I think.

In a vain attempt to get this back on thread, the Citation 5.0 I'm using on the PT250 is a stellar analog two-channel pre. It and its 7.0 sibling were/are known for their analog qualities. Since the surround modes on them are outdated (except possibly 6 Axis) they make p-fine stereo preamps with clean, pure analog stages.

Since the PT250 is a bastardized offspring of unholy intercourse, it's okay for it to have a such an unblessed stereo pre. :p

Titanium Dome
08-15-2011, 12:24 PM
All of which has nothing to do with JBL Performance Series speakers. :) (I was late to the party and missed the Oppo/Outlaw comparo)

Performance Series? Oh, right!

Mr. Widget
08-15-2011, 02:18 PM
All of which has nothing to do with JBL Performance Series speakers. :) (I was late to the party and missed the Oppo/Outlaw comparo)

Yeah, but even the Performance Series is pretty useless without a source and electronics. :p


Widget

JBLAddict
08-15-2011, 02:29 PM
BDP-83SE analog board:

BDP-95 analog board:


The one with the bigger board looks better ;)

JeffW
08-15-2011, 02:46 PM
Check out a Bryston DAC

Nyet. Has a machined aluminum faceplate. ;-)

grumpy
08-15-2011, 03:12 PM
A nice thing... the "PT250" is already (IMO) at the level where comparing things like sources and front ends is interesting. This, in a room that most would think would present a few...
challenges :) ... a topic that came up at lunch, including a replay of some Toole-ish thinking
about room design and accuracy in replay, vs. what the sampled populous responds to as being an enjoyable listening experience.

For some reason, the kludgey combination of MacOSX, Parallels, Windows7, London Architect, USB-serial converter, BSS-366 didn't want to play in Peoria this time...
Next time, for sure :o:

We had a good (too brief) time anyway (as has been mentioned)... Thanks Doug.

rpatt
08-28-2011, 03:58 AM
I’m having a problem figuring out how I’m going to bass manage my performance system. I have 4-PT800s, 1-PC600, 2-PS1400s, 4-HTPS400s. I’m planning on running the fronts as PS/PT towers using the internal PS crossover. I’m using a Yamaha RX-V3800 as a Pre-Pro (I have separate power amps). I want to run the front towers as small and cross over to the HTPS400s at 40-Hz and the center & surrounds as small crossed over at 80-Hz. The problem is that the Yamaha won’t let me do that. There is only one crossover setting for all speakers set to small. I have a Velodyne SMS-1 that I could run the front signal through but it has a fixed crossover at 80-Hz. Would it cause a problem to run the fronts as large, the center & surrounds as small and crossover to the HTPS400s at 80-Hz? Any other options you can think of? I've exhausted my HT budget and have to make this work until I can afford a dedicated Pre-Pro.

rdgrimes
08-28-2011, 05:41 AM
I run the front stacks as large, plus I feed them the LFE signal too. But with 4x HTPS400 you don't really need the PS1400 for sub duty. I think you'll be very happy with the simple 80Hz crossover and fronts as large.

rpatt
08-28-2011, 07:35 AM
I run the front stacks as large, plus I feed them the LFE signal too. But with 4x HTPS400 you don't really need the PS1400 for sub duty. I think you'll be very happy with the simple 80Hz crossover and fronts as large.

Thanks RD.

porschedpm
08-28-2011, 07:39 AM
Iím having a problem figuring out how Iím going to bass manage my performance system. I have 4-PT800s, 1-PC600, 2-PS1400s, 4-HTPS400s. Iím planning on running the fronts as PS/PT towers using the internal PS crossover. Iím using a Yamaha RX-V3800 as a Pre-Pro (I have separate power amps). I want to run the front towers as small and cross over to the HTPS400s at 40-Hz and the center & surrounds as small crossed over at 80-Hz. The problem is that the Yamaha wonít let me do that. There is only one crossover setting for all speakers set to small. I have a Velodyne SMS-1 that I could run the front signal through but it has a fixed crossover at 80-Hz. Would it cause a problem to run the fronts as large, the center & surrounds as small and crossover to the HTPS400s at 80-Hz? Any other options you can think of? I've exhausted my HT budget and have to make this work until I can afford a dedicated Pre-Pro.

Yes, you should designate the fronts as large and the surrounds/center as 'small'. Even if you were able to cross the HTPS400s at 40Hz, I think you'd be happier crossing them at 80Hz. At 40Hz there be such limited signal going to them they'd be under-utilized. As I recall 80Hz is the THX standard.

My own system is set up with two PT800/PS1400 coupled as towers set to 'large'. The PC600 center and PT800 surrounds are all set to 'small'. And there's one additional PS1400 set up as a sub. It all sounds very good for both home theater and audio only.

rpatt
08-28-2011, 08:57 AM
Yes, you should designate the fronts as large and the surrounds/center as 'small'. Even if you were able to cross the HTPS400s at 40Hz, I think you'd be happier crossing them at 80Hz. At 40Hz there be such limited signal going to them they'd be under-utilized. As I recall 80Hz is the THX standard.

My own system is set up with two PT800/PS1400 coupled as towers set to 'large'. The PC600 center and PT800 surrounds are all set to 'small'. And there's one additional PS1400 set up as a sub. It all sounds very good for both home theater and audio only.

Thanks for the help.

JBLAddict
08-28-2011, 02:50 PM
Oh, and I used them to elevate these new metallic speakers I picked up ;)

Rusnzha
08-28-2011, 06:45 PM
The Velodyne crossover frquency is adjustable.

rpatt
08-28-2011, 08:09 PM
The Velodyne crossover frquency is adjustable.

I'll recheck the manual.

Rusnzha
08-28-2011, 08:28 PM
Looked in manual, Low Pass is adjustable between 15 & 199 Hz or off. Slope can be set to 6, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, and 48 dB/octave.

rpatt
08-28-2011, 09:04 PM
Looked in manual, Low Pass is adjustable between 15 & 199 Hz or off. Slope can be set to 6, 12, 18, 24, 30, 36, 42, and 48 dB/octave.

I also checked. You are correct if you connect the SMS-1 to the LFE or SW out but the crossover is for all of the speakers. I want to crossover the L/R Front separately. This can be done if you connect the SMS-1 to the L/R out of the receiver PRE-OUT then back to the L/R amp inputs but the crossover is fixed at 80-Hz when using this configuration.

Rusnzha
08-29-2011, 03:09 AM
I also checked. You are correct if you connect the SMS-1 to the LFE or SW out but the crossover is for all of the speakers. I want to crossover the L/R Front separately. This can be done if you connect the SMS-1 to the L/R out of the receiver PRE-OUT then back to the L/R amp inputs but the crossover is fixed at 80-Hz when using this configuration.

:confused: Are you referring to the Hi-Pass?

rpatt
08-29-2011, 08:43 AM
:confused: Are you referring to the Hi-Pass?

Yes.

Titanium Dome
08-29-2011, 04:32 PM
Oh, and I used them to elevate these new metallic speakers I picked up ;)

Did you swipe those out of my garage?

JBLAddict
08-29-2011, 09:44 PM
Did you swipe those out of my garage?

LOL :p after the last PT250 demo, decided I could no longer stay apart from the vocals and air of the PS. While very very satisfied with my L7s, those euphoric vocals are something I've wanted since auditioning the L7 for purchase and "accidentally" hearing the PT800s mounted behind them-- future visits to "Casa del Ti" furthered confirmed what's haunted me.

After noting the auction frequency had dropped to nil, and a little pocket change came my way, when this set came up looking near new, with boxes, manual and mounting brackets, I figured under $450ea. including shipping was reasonable risk. Got em Saturday, and have been screwing around running L7/PT800 A/Bs using the Oppo83SE to send everything under 100Hz to my one sub via the MCH analog outs.

The A/B certainly confirms most of what I thought, that the L7 really is a fine fine speaker, but the 704G just can't compete with the 904Ti (?), and I'm sure the midbass/tweet delta is contributing differences I'm not able to quantify just yet.

I'm kicking myself a bit because the seller had those two near new looking PS1400s that should be sitting below my PT800s for the same price as the PTs. Funny side note, when I explained the situation to my wife while perching them atop the L100s, she exclaimed "why would you buy half a speaker?

So in the meantime, I've got a rig, without a good way to elevate them securely with a 5 yr old animal running around, and my <100Hz all coming from one sub, but hey it's a start I guess.

JBLAddict
08-30-2011, 02:49 PM
does anyone have the tech sheets for the PT, PC, PS ?
Thanks in advance

Titanium Dome
08-30-2011, 03:23 PM
Here you go.

Titanium Dome
08-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Here you go again.

JBLAddict
08-30-2011, 05:58 PM
thank you, do you have the PS also?

rpatt
08-30-2011, 07:54 PM
thank you, do you have the PS also?

Look at the first post in this thread.

JBLAddict
08-30-2011, 08:31 PM
Look at the first post in this thread.

The PS1400 technical manual.pdf

in addition to PC, PT

not the speaker itself

rpatt
08-30-2011, 08:48 PM
The PS1400 technical manual.pdf

in addition to PC, PT

not the speaker itself

Oops.:D The PS1400 & the HTPS400 are not in the list of Tech Sheets.

Titanium Dome
08-30-2011, 09:01 PM
thank you, do you have the PS also?

AFAIK, there is no PS1400 sheet, just the complete repair manual. It's too big to put here.

Maybe I'll email it to you of you can tell me who the five members of f(x) are.

:p

JBLAddict
08-31-2011, 07:52 AM
AFAIK, there is no PS1400 sheet, just the complete repair manual. It's too big to put here.

Maybe I'll email it to you of you can tell me who the five members of f(x) are.

:p

The quintet consists of Victoria, Amber, Luna, Sulli and Krystal. ;)

btw, no need on the manual, hopefully repair is something I won't need, just like having a reference to drivers, size, power, etc for the speakers I own

Titanium Dome
08-31-2011, 12:43 PM
The quintet consists of Victoria, Amber, Luna, Sulli and Krystal. ;)


My GF is crazy about these girls, and TTTT, they do sing and dance pretty well. Their music gets regular airplay on both our K2s and the Performance Series. I'm thinking it plays better on the Performance gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBJl7g2FkFw

JBLAddict
08-31-2011, 09:29 PM
My GF is crazy about these girls, and TTTT, they do sing and dance pretty well. Their music gets regular airplay on both our K2s and the Performance Series. I'm thinking it plays better on the Performance gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBJl7g2FkFw

I want my three minutes and 46 seconds back!

Titanium Dome
08-31-2011, 09:50 PM
I want my three minutes and 46 seconds back!

Ha ha. Next time you're here, I'll make you listen to the whole album on the Performance Series. Take that!

hjames
09-01-2011, 05:06 AM
Ha ha. Next time you're here, I'll make you listen to the whole album on the Performance Series. Take that!

GAWD!
I'll never get those images out of my head ...

Titanium Dome
09-01-2011, 08:23 AM
GAWD!
I'll never get those images out of my head ...

But H-H-Heather! It's a Hot, Hot Summer!!

Just be thankful it wasn't a video of me dancing in front of my Performance Series gear.:banana: :barf:

Titanium Dome
09-01-2011, 08:30 AM
I'm kicking myself a bit because the seller had those two near new looking PS1400s that should be sitting below my PT800s for the same price as the PTs. Funny side note, when I explained the situation to my wife while perching them atop the L100s, she exclaimed "why would you buy half a speaker?
.


I've been contemplating the Zen of your wife's query. It's so clear, so straight, so into the heart of why men are the way they are. Of course, there is no answer, for the meaning lies in the inquiry and the journey it inspires. That journey completes itself when you've made that which is incomplete (half in this case) into a whole.

---------------------

IOW, buy two PS1400s :banghead: :bash:

grumpy
09-01-2011, 03:22 PM
Ah, but what is the sound of one woof flapping?

Robh3606
09-01-2011, 06:42 PM
Last Tank girl I remember was this

Rob:D

JBLAddict
09-01-2011, 10:10 PM
I've been contemplating the Zen of your wife's query. It's so clear, so straight, so into the heart of why men are the way they are. Of course, there is no answer, for the meaning lies in the inquiry and the journey it inspires. That journey completes itself when you've made that which is incomplete (half in this case) into a whole.

---------------------

IOW, buy two PS1400s :banghead: :bash:

well since we're exploring her insightful commentary, I might as well disclose the full sentence which was "why did you buy half a speaker...why do you always do this stuff half-assed!"

I took that as CLEAR green light to get the full 5.0 system, so at this point I have the PS1400s, a PC600, and two additional PT800s en route for delivery next week. :D She's aware of the subs, the PC600 and PT800s are a surprise, so shhhhh ;)

grumpy
09-04-2011, 12:11 AM
We'll be vewwy vewwy qwuiet ... good luck.

Robh, that's the second wendy-o album cover I've seen in the same number of days...
weird.

JBLAddict
09-11-2011, 08:08 AM
finally received all four PT800, the two PS1400, and PC600 by Friday.

All "deboxed" mounted, installed, calibrated, and pleasuring the new owner.

My living room is swimming however in a "Ti-Dome '04-esque" sea of decommissioned L7,L5,L3 home theater items stuffed behind the FL/FR stacks, so pix will be delayed until I get them into storage today.

Honestly one of my favorite things to this point are the wall mounted rear PT800s and PC600 above the fireplace and below the TV with just about the most perfect fit one could ask for. Having that done cleanly and out of the way achieves a major goal of mine in having high quality audio in a family friendly setup--well done JBL.

rdgrimes
09-11-2011, 08:28 AM
I have my 4 PT800 surrounds wall mounted, I think they sound great that way.

Titanium Dome
09-11-2011, 07:06 PM
finally received all four PT800, the two PS1400, and PC600 by Friday.

All "deboxed" mounted, installed, calibrated, and pleasuring the new owner.

My living room is swimming however in a "Ti-Dome '04-esque" sea of decommissioned L7,L5,L3 home theater items stuffed behind the FL/FR stacks, so pix will be delayed until I get them into storage today.

Honestly one of my favorite things to this point are the wall mounted rear PT800s and PC600 above the fireplace and below the TV with just about the most perfect fit one could ask for. Having that done cleanly and out of the way achieves a major goal of mine in having high quality audio in a family friendly setup--well done JBL.

Hooray!! Sounds great and no doubt looks great, too. Congratulations! :bouncy:

JBLAddict
09-13-2011, 09:28 AM
Here's a shot of the temp setup, using the aweful i4 camera. Relocated the L5s to the bedroom, the L7s are off to the side waiting for me to lug them to the storage unit (I think), the old L3 center still sitting there. The PS are on the box cardboard until I get some casters for the spikes (which are quite sharp on the laminate floor)

I'm guessing I can get the front facing woofer, front ported design of the PS closer to the back wall than the L7 :dont-know:

I absolutely love not having a floor standing center, and how easily the fairly large PC mounted at the correct tweeter height in relation to the FL/FR, using the small wood trim above the fireplace for the screws (I verified when mounting the TV that the radiated heat from the fireplace goes outward only, with the convective heat rising up the flue, so should be OK here). I'll tuck the floor running wire behind the TV and out the right side with the TV cables).

The rear left PT is sitting on the floor backing to the sliding glass door, I need a recommendation on a stand for the PT if anyone has one??

A friend works for Panasonic and gave me the friends/family discount site and I'm really thinking of upgrading my now outdated 2006 plasma to the new 55" VT30, a really high performing gorgeous all black panel.

Without rehashing listening impressions of this thread I will tap into an area rarely discussed-- HT use, which ends up being 90% of the time my system is used with a family around most the time. For the first time, watching sports in SS is truly enjoyable. While I spend a lot of time calibrating the L series setup, there was a lack of cohesiveness and air that just didn't work in comparison. With 5 essentially identical speakers, designed for HT purposes, the difference is quite remarkable. Announcer vocals are balanced and clear, ambient crowd noise is pleasing rather than annoying and panning during movies is seamless/cohesive in a way that just wasn't working before. While I was really seeking an improvement to 2CH listening as well as MCH music, the dramatic improvement to HT movies/television is turning out to be BY FAR the biggest surprise as I've never heard Ti-Domes system outside of music. Honestly, for what this system is delivering for EVERY type of listening, can't think of another near this price range that could come close....:bouncy:

52838

rdgrimes
09-13-2011, 09:54 AM
^^^
I would keep the front stacks as far from the back wall as possible.

grumpy
09-14-2011, 08:14 AM
Awesome that they can bring you much joy and entertainment.
Happy they worked out so well for you. :applaud:

JBLAddict
09-14-2011, 04:53 PM
Awesome that they can bring you much joy and entertainment.
Happy they worked out so well for you. :applaud:

Thanks, just note it was your tuning and demonstration of the PT250 (having heard the PS 5.4 many times) that caused me to go home and finally pull the BIN trigger days later on the first pair of PT800s that led to this point ;)

JBLAddict
09-14-2011, 04:55 PM
The rear left PT is sitting on the floor backing to the sliding glass door, I need a recommendation on a stand for the PT if anyone has one??


Just re-asking my question, does anyone know of a stand that fits the odd hole pattern of the PT800 (and NO, don't suggest a PS1400 :D)

rpatt
09-14-2011, 06:15 PM
finally received all four PT800, the two PS1400, and PC600 by Friday.

All "deboxed" mounted, installed, calibrated, and pleasuring the new owner.

My living room is swimming however in a "Ti-Dome '04-esque" sea of decommissioned L7,L5,L3 home theater items stuffed behind the FL/FR stacks, so pix will be delayed until I get them into storage today.

Honestly one of my favorite things to this point are the wall mounted rear PT800s and PC600 above the fireplace and below the TV with just about the most perfect fit one could ask for. Having that done cleanly and out of the way achieves a major goal of mine in having high quality audio in a family friendly setup--well done JBL.

Congratulations. It took me over three years to do that.

rdgrimes
09-14-2011, 07:49 PM
Just re-asking my question, does anyone know of a stand that fits the odd hole pattern of the PT800 (and NO, don't suggest a PS1400 :D)
The bottom plate of the PT800 can be removed and fixed to just about any stand capable of supporting it. The PT800 plate will lay flush on any flat surface. So it's really just a matter of getting a stand of the correct height with a flat plate big enough for the PT800. If the top plate on the stand is larger than the footprint of the PT800, you could also just bolt the speaker directly to that. They are standard sized machine screws that go into the speaker.

Titanium Dome
09-14-2011, 09:21 PM
^^^
I would keep the front stacks as far from the back wall as possible.


The bottom plate of the PT800 can be removed and fixed to just about any stand capable of supporting it. The PT800 plate will lay flush on any flat surface. So it's really just a matter of getting a stand of the correct height with a flat plate big enough for the PT800. If the top plate on the stand is larger than the footprint of the PT800, you could also just bolt the speaker directly to that. They are standard sized machine screws that go into the speaker.

JBLAddict, as you know, all my PS1400/PT800 stacks are very close to the boundaries of the room, including those are are near actual walls. Having written that, you also know that the room that they're in only has two real walls, and two walls that are only about 24" high. Nonetheless, I've found that proximity to the walls is less of an issue with the stacks than almost any other speaker, due in no small part to the front firing ports on the PS1400, the PT800's sealed enclosure, the EOS WaveGuides, and the ISOPowerģ baffle.

You can always move them nearer/farther and figure it out for yourself from a subjective point of view, OR you could invite grumpy and me down for our expert analysis and free beer.

rd is right on the money about the PT800 being mountable on almost any stand if you don't mind drilling four holes. Since he's in NM and can't drop by, I "Have Drill, Will Travel"* and could help you totally ruin a speaker stand to find the perfect mounting scenario.

*You know he was a JBL fan, right?

JBLAddict
09-15-2011, 11:07 AM
The bottom plate of the PT800 can be removed and fixed to just about any stand capable of supporting it. The PT800 plate will lay flush on any flat surface. So it's really just a matter of getting a stand of the correct height with a flat plate big enough for the PT800. If the top plate on the stand is larger than the footprint of the PT800, you could also just bolt the speaker directly to that. They are standard sized machine screws that go into the speaker.

thanks, I'll take a look at the plate again, look up some off the shelf stands and see what I can do

rdgrimes
09-15-2011, 11:16 AM
thanks, I'll take a look at the plate again, look up some off the shelf stands and see what I can do
I use a couple of these for all purpose stands.

http://www.amazon.com/Sanus-Steel-Foundations-SFC22b-Speaker/dp/B0006DPPAQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1316110383&sr=8-5

Very heavy and they have a extra large top plate that will support much larger speakers than the PT800. They are not cheap in pairs. Can be filled with sand or shot, come with spikes and rubber pads.

JBLAddict
09-15-2011, 11:33 AM
*You know he was a JBL fan, right?

the show predates me, so I didn't know him, the show, let alone what speaker brand he endorsed :D

stay tuned on a hosted day, it's an issue of almost never having the house w/o the three little ones around, but if the opportunity arises, something I definitely would like to do.....Chicago's Best is right down the street and they sell in bulk the authentic Vienna Beef, hot giardiniera, rolls, and au jus to make a real Chicago beef sandwich, which is unlike any other in any city anywhere as you prolly know:)

Titanium Dome
09-15-2011, 09:29 PM
the show predates me, so I didn't know him, the show, let alone what speaker brand he endorsed :D

stay tuned on a hosted day, it's an issue of almost never having the house w/o the three little ones around, but if the opportunity arises, something I definitely would like to do.....Chicago's Best is right down the street and they sell in bulk the authentic Vienna Beef, hot giardiniera, rolls, and au jus to make a real Chicago beef sandwich, which is unlike any other in any city anywhere as you prolly know:)

Would love some Vienna Beef. I stopped at Downtown Dog when I was at a conference in Chicago last month. MMMMMmmmmmm. :homer:

Oh, and love to hear the system, too. :D

You can see Richard Boone (Paladin: Have Gun Will Travel) admiring JBL products right on this site:

http://www.audioheritage.org/html/forums/forums.htm

JBLAddict
09-16-2011, 10:39 AM
I use a couple of these for all purpose stands.

http://www.amazon.com/Sanus-Steel-Foundations-SFC22b-Speaker/dp/B0006DPPAQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1316110383&sr=8-5

Very heavy and they have a extra large top plate that will support much larger speakers than the PT800. They are not cheap in pairs. Can be filled with sand or shot, come with spikes and rubber pads.

got it worked out. I used two old bookshelf speaker stands, attaching the two bases to one support post, making it wide enough on top to hold the PT. Even without being bolted down, the PT is surprisingly stable, though this weekend I will drill some new holes to attach to the bottom plate.

I was in the middle of attaching the standard small top pedestal and my wife said "why don't you just put the two bases together" so once again my "better half" proved better ;)

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 08:59 AM
I'm not understanding how the PT/PS stack creates even/proper power distribution to the two units?

I'm looking at it as a bi-amped speaker, where the LF is getting all 400W and the MF/HF is getting only the power of the amplified input signal.

Does this imply I need the input signal amplified to 400W for the stack to be balanced the same as a standard speaker with a single amplified input?

rdgrimes
09-17-2011, 09:16 AM
I'm not understanding how the PT/PS stack creates even/proper power distribution to the two units?

I'm looking at it as a bi-amped speaker, where the LF is getting all 400W and the MF/HF is getting only the power of the amplified input signal.

Does this imply I need the input signal amplified to 400W for the stack to be balanced the same as a standard speaker with a single amplified input?
Not at all. The sound below 130Hz normally draws around 90% of the available power in any speaker. Even in an active bi-amp setup with any speaker, you don't need to apply equal power to each channel.

I can't even imagine the levels generated if you were to drive these units high enough to justify 400W continuous into the PT800. That said, I have to admit that I do have 400WPC available into 5 of my PT800. But the difference between 400 and 200 is only VERY slightly audible and only at painful levels.

I'd have to say that even 100WPC will drive the PT800 very nicely to levels well beyond normal. By that I mean a true 100WPC, not an AVR rated at 100WPC.

grumpy
09-17-2011, 10:43 AM
It might help to think of amps as voltage gain stages;
with some having a higher output voltage limit (above
which, the amplifier clips). If the amplifiers have the
same sensitivity (or are adjusted at their inputs to be so),
then the same input level to each amp will result in
matching output voltages. If you apply the outputs to
a load, such as a speaker, the resulting dissipation in
watts will also be the same for both amps (assuming
identical speakers). With different speakers, they have
their own impedance vs frequency and sensitivity, so
biamp level matching can require further adjustments
beyond amp sensitivity (or one can trade off sensitivities
in each area). So... 'watts', as used to specify an amp
in the audio biz, is more an ultimate capability, sort of
like hp and torque specs for a car. I've intentionally
simplified things a bit, but I hope that helps :)

rdgrimes
09-17-2011, 10:54 AM
Also good to note that the PS1400 has a level control specifically for the LF input. If you're doing spectrum analysis and EQ, this can be used to influence response curves. I'd suggest starting with that level control set at "0". Small changes can have a big effect depending on the source. And to further complicate things, if you use the LFE input and have the stacks on a 80Hz XO in your processor, you can use both the LF and LFE level adjustments to tweak the <80Hz and 80-130Hz bands separately. Are we having fun yet?

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 01:50 PM
It might help.... I've intentionally
simplified things a bit, but I hope that helps :)


Not at all.
I'd have to say that even 100WPC will drive the PT800 very nicely to levels well beyond normal. By that I mean a true 100WPC, not an AVR rated at 100WPC.

Thanks guys for the excellent explanations. That clarifies one key question on the stack.

WRT to the full 5.1 ... the situation is that I'm back to using my HK 75WPC AVR354 for the 5.0 channels, and the convenience of using the AVR for all functions is very nice, and I'd like to keep it that way if it's not a substantial sonic compromise. I figured with a 91dB PT800 only driving above 130Hz the fronts, in particular, would be fine this way, as would the surrounds and center above 80Hz

It sounds fine enough for 2CH music, as well as movies and MCH music, but I still have the "use the maximum recommended amplified power for adequate headroom for occasional peaks" from the user manual on the brain.

I had the L7s on a separate amp for obvious reasons but am really hoping the PT/PS stack allows me to recapture the convenience of an AVR w/o real compromise

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 02:29 PM
The bottom plate of the PT800 can be removed and fixed to just about any stand capable of supporting it. The PT800 plate will lay flush on any flat surface. So it's really just a matter of getting a stand of the correct height with a flat plate big enough for the PT800. If the top plate on the stand is larger than the footprint of the PT800, you could also just bolt the speaker directly to that. They are standard sized machine screws that go into the speaker.

Took a better look at it. Unless I'm missing something, it seems without a gap below the PT800 there isn't a way to mount the PT-plate to the stand, and the PT to the plate without using an extra long bolt through the top plate of the stand? Same as if I was to bolt the speaker to top of the stand directly, bypassing the PT plate altogether. :confused:

grumpy
09-17-2011, 02:41 PM
If times and logistics ever work out, remind me and I'll bring 5ch of 150w (Proceed)
that you can compare and judge for yourself (will need 5 rca cables). I'd think you
would be quite happy with the AVR, but I understand that it's somehow more
comforting when you are able to prove it to yourself :) (or at least can understand
the incremental nature of such an upgrade and can gauge it's relative importance to
you at this time vs ... pretty much anything else)

Don C
09-17-2011, 02:44 PM
You do need to leave yourself a way to fasten the plate to the speaker, after you have mounted the plate to the stand. One might be able to just use the metal plate as a pattern to drill eight holes in the top of the speaker stand. Four to fasten the stand to the plate, then four more larger ones to put the screws in from below to fasten the plate to the speaker. You have to figure it out based on what stands you are using, but it can be done. If the top part of your speaker stands are small, you might have to drill four new holes in the plate to match the size of the stand. Bolting all the way through the stand and the existing holes in the speaker cabinet would be fine too, just use the metal plate as a pattern to drill, and you'll need longer screws.

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 03:59 PM
You do need to leave yourself a way to fasten the plate to the speaker, after you have mounted the plate to the stand. One might be able to just use the metal plate as a pattern to drill eight holes in the top of the speaker stand. Four to fasten the stand to the plate, then four more larger ones to put the screws in from below to fasten the plate to the speaker. You have to figure it out based on what stands you are using, but it can be done. If the top part of your speaker stands are small, you might have to drill four new holes in the plate to match the size of the stand. Bolting all the way through the stand and the existing holes in the speaker cabinet would be fine too, just use the metal plate as a pattern to drill, and you'll need longer screws.

good ideas thanks. thinking a longer bolt of the same size through the stand top-plate is cleanest option....though I was really hoping for a solution with the hardware I have and not have to visit the hardware store :D

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 04:03 PM
If times and logistics ever work out, remind me and I'll bring 5ch of 150w (Proceed)
that you can compare and judge for yourself (will need 5 rca cables). I'd think you
would be quite happy with the AVR, but I understand that it's somehow more
comforting when you are able to prove it to yourself :) (or at least can understand
the incremental nature of such an upgrade and can gauge it's relative importance to
you at this time vs ... pretty much anything else)

I hear ya, would be good to try. Overall, was hoping the >80Hz nature of the satellite PTs would negate the need for high power to satisfy typical headroom issues of a full range unit....seeing that 90% of the power goes to <130Hz as stated.

Mr. Widget
09-17-2011, 05:07 PM
I hear ya, would be good to try. Overall, was hoping the >80Hz nature of the satellite PTs would negate the need for high power to satisfy typical headroom issues of a full range unit....seeing that 90% of the power goes to <130Hz as stated.

As was eluded to above... I wouldn't be as concerned by the amount of watts as the quality of them and the quality of your preamp. These speakers deserve a high quality set of electronics... but that can come along later.


Widget

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 07:06 PM
These speakers deserve a high quality set of electronics... but that can come along later.

Widget

well said, deserved, and over time :)


If the top plate on the stand is larger than the footprint of the PT800, you could also just bolt the speaker directly to that. They are standard sized machine screws that go into the speaker.

Done, had a bunch of 1 3/4" long screws of the same diameter, the exact length needed to compensate for the 1/2" of the stand topplate and 1/4" recess on the bottom of the PT....drilled holes in the stand turned everything upside down and bolted together. :)

rdgrimes
09-17-2011, 07:58 PM
well said, deserved, and over time :)



Done, had a bunch of 1 3/4" long screws of the same diameter, the exact length needed to compensate for the 1/2" of the stand topplate and 1/4" recess on the bottom of the PT....drilled holes in the stand turned everything upside down and bolted together. :)
Whatever works. Look at the stacks - the surface that meets the pillars from the PS1400 is more or less flush with the bottom edge of the PT800 cab. Those 4 holes can be used to attach to any flat plate.


I hear ya, would be good to try. Overall, was hoping the >80Hz nature of the satellite PTs would negate the need for high power to satisfy typical headroom issues of a full range unit....seeing that 90% of the power goes to <130Hz as stated.

Yes, but you're only talking about transients here, and the amp's ability to control the drivers at higher levels. You CAN hear differences between 100W, 200W and 400W, but those differences diminish proportionally. The bigger (and better) the amp, the better it can deliver those transients and still maintain the smaller details. High resolution audio like SACD and DVD-A made from quality masters is the real test.

I'd say the PT800 is just as likely to deliver more pleasing sound with higher power as the L7 is.

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 09:14 PM
I'd say the PT800 is just as likely to deliver more pleasing sound with higher power as the L7 is.

Well, shoot.....what's the ATI 2505 going for these days? :p

Titanium Dome
09-17-2011, 10:36 PM
Well, shoot.....what's the ATI 2505 going for these days? :p

I could tell you but I'm not authorized to speak... :die:

Bear in mind that I'm using a JBL Performance Series AVA7 in my system. It's only putting out 125W/ch, but it puts that out in all seven channels from 20Hz to 20kHz at the same time. Of course, I'm only using five channels, so the thing is really loafing most of the time. Oh yeah, it's built right there at ATI.

Also remember that my Synthesis One Array amps are putting out 150W/ch into the SAMS and the S4Ai surrounds. Again, that's all five channels driven from 20Hz to 20kHz. Did I mention that these are built right there at ATI?

In both systems I think it's safe to say that they put out plenty of clean, chest-slapping, pants-flapping sound.

The big unknown is what an amp's rating really is, and we have to examine how it was measured to judge its real capability. A lot of receivers will resort to rating only one channel and only at 1kHz to get a power rating, then blithely apply it to all channels. Unfortunately, we end up with one channel that can do the stated rating at one frequency, while the other channels and other frequencies may be starved for power.

HK at least has a reputation for being conservative in its ratings, so check the manual to see how it is rated. The 75 Watts it claims might be more than some other receivers and even cheap amps that claim 150 or 200 Watts per channel but cannot deliver it to all channels and all frequencies at the same time.

Yes, at some point it might be nice to have "more power" to drive them, but my advice would be to wait until you can score a nice pair of used, clearance, or B stock separates that will raise the bar on both sides.

In fact, I know right now where you can get an excellent B stock audiophile grade five channel amp and a very nice surround pre for under $2500 with full factory warranty. But all I can tell you is you have to be willing to buy made in USA products built right here in SoCal, and you'd have to suffer my abuse for having that big Aluminum billet front end on the amp.

Think: Montebello, CA

JBLAddict
09-17-2011, 11:59 PM
I could tell you...


Think: Montebello, CA

So I checked out the website again for Montebello Ampliphonics TM, certainly some great stuff :D LOL

My wife had to go out of town to deal with parent medical issues, so after a day of watching the little one's dad is up late with Johnny Walker A/Bing his PS and L7s with the HK and Soundcraftsmen S800 amps.

The 240W SC, for good measure is 3dB louder at the same gain than the 75W HK using the test tones and RS meter in stereo mode. The HK manual says in stereo mode it's 75WPC Continuous Avg Power 20-20kHz, for MCH it doesn't say the words Continuous Avg Power, guess that means it's legit in stereo maybe not so in MCH?

Anyway, I do believe the 240W has filled out the 2Ch sound, which sucks because I was hoping to not have that bug in my head :blink: If I did make a purchase, it would be for the 5Ch amp into the pre of the HK AVR as I'm not willing to lose all the great non-amp stuff it can do.

grumpy
09-18-2011, 02:59 PM
The 240W SC, for good measure is 3dB louder at the same gain than the 75W HK using the test tones and RS meter in stereo mode. The HK manual says in stereo mode it's 75WPC Continuous Avg Power 20-20kHz, for MCH it doesn't say the words Continuous Avg Power, guess that means it's legit in stereo maybe not so in MCH?

Again, keep in mind that the '3dB louder' is almost certainly due to the amplifiers having
different gain, not because one is somehow deficient. If you could knock the input
down on the Soundcraftsman amp by 3dB and then try to compare the audio quality,
... and the bigger amp -still- sounded like it had the edge, then you've got reason
for a bug in your brain ;) (reminds me of an old Star Trek movie ...)

JBLAddict
09-18-2011, 10:49 PM
Again, keep in mind that the '3dB louder' is almost certainly due to the amplifiers having
different gain, not because one is somehow deficient. If you could knock the input
down on the Soundcraftsman amp by 3dB and then try to compare the audio quality,
... and the bigger amp -still- sounded like it had the edge, then you've got reason
for a bug in your brain ;) (reminds me of an old Star Trek movie ...)

Yeah. Thought about at least meticulously level matching them but out of laziness just turned the volume down on the SC portion til it sounded about the same. I'd have to repeat it a bunch of times to be sure of what I heard. I could use some other ears or even measuring gear on response. Hopefully that can be arranged soon

rpatt
10-02-2011, 12:43 AM
I just got home yesterday. I unpacked the HTPS400 that I bought from the Harman Audio clearance page. All three toggle switch levers are missing. I never change the setting on those, how hard would it be to pull the plate and jumper them in the desired position? Any other options?

rdgrimes
10-02-2011, 06:19 AM
I just got home yesterday. I unpacked the HTPS400 that I bought from the Harman Audio clearance page. All three toggle switch levers are missing. I never change the setting on those, how hard would it be to pull the plate and jumper them in the desired position? Any other options?
I'd suggest you pack it back up and send it back for replacement.

rpatt
10-02-2011, 07:01 AM
I sent them an e-mail. The problem is I only have six weeks here. When I bought it I thought I was getting a new or at least a refurbished sub. I checked the box and the levers are not in there so it was like that when they shipped it.

rdgrimes
10-02-2011, 07:53 AM
I sent them an e-mail. The problem is I only have six weeks here. When I bought it I thought I was getting a new or at least a refurbished sub. I checked the box and the levers are not in there so it was like that when they shipped it.
A phone call will accomplish more, emails tend to get ignored. But since you paid for a factory-fresh sub, that's what you should have. If you have time constraints, they may be able to work with you on expedited handling. But the phone call is the key.

rpatt
10-11-2011, 05:11 PM
A phone call will accomplish more, emails tend to get ignored. But since you paid for a factory-fresh sub, that's what you should have. If you have time constraints, they may be able to work with you on expedited handling. But the phone call is the key.

Thanks for the advice. I called them and they are sending the replacement parts and the nearest repair center location to be repaired.

rdgrimes
10-19-2011, 02:06 PM
Patience and persistence wins out. I got one pair of the PT800 corner brackets from the eBay seller for $25. Still one pair left if somebody wants to try for the same deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230663422737?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

JBLAddict
10-21-2011, 07:46 PM
We had a little discussion on appropriate power for the PT800 when in stacked configuration.

But can someone explain to the non-EE how the sub takes a full range powered signal and extracts only the <130Hz information (without the power) for the onboard amp. :o:

thanks

rdgrimes
10-21-2011, 08:00 PM
It's basically a simple high pass filter, the same as any sub that has speaker level inputs. Sort of a poor man's bi-amp configuration. The <130Hz is then combined with the LFE input (if any) and sent off to the driver. It even gives you separate level controls on those 2 signals.

Mr. Widget
10-21-2011, 11:21 PM
But can someone explain to the non-EE how the sub takes a full range powered signal and extracts only the <130Hz information (without the power) for the onboard amp. :o:


It's basically a simple high pass filter, the same as any sub that has speaker level inputs. Sort of a poor man's bi-amp configuration. The <130Hz is then combined with the LFE input (if any) and sent off to the driver. It even gives you separate level controls on those 2 signals.Yep, as seen in this photo that TiDome posted on post #12 of this thread, almost 1,700 posts ago... shows the difficulty of dealing with threads that grow past a certain point. ;)

But I digress... in this pic you can see that there is an amp volume pot for the speaker level input. This signal is filtered internally so that the amplifier only reproduces sounds below ~130Hz, a parallel speaker level feed from the input goes to the passive crossover (pic from post #70 in this thread) which filters the lows from the signal that is fed to the PT800 that comes from the top of the sub.

If you used the LFE line level input, you will need to have a signal that has a LP filter such as the LFE output of a surround receiver or processor... this output will typically be filtered at ~80Hz and not blend with the PT800. The LFE input is meant to be used if the PS1400 is being used as a true sub and not part of the PS1400/PT800 system.


Widget

rdgrimes
10-22-2011, 05:59 AM
The LFE input is meant to be used if the PS1400 is being used as a true sub and not part of the PS1400/PT800 system.
Widget
The LFE input can be used regardless of whether the 1400 is stacked. In fact, it can be used in a couple different ways when stacked. If you set your front stacks as "small" in your processor and feed L-R LF content to the LFE input, this gives you separate gain controls over the <80Hz and 80-130HZ content in the 1400.

Mr. Widget
10-22-2011, 09:52 AM
The LFE input can be used regardless of whether the 1400 is stacked. In fact, it can be used in a couple different ways when stacked. If you set your front stacks as "small" in your processor and feed L-R LF content to the LFE input, this gives you separate gain controls over the <80Hz and 80-130HZ content in the 1400.Sure, but that is entirely processor dependent. The slope and frequency of the processor's internal filter may not be as similar to the JBL design as one wants... it would certainly be worth exploring though.


Widget

JBLAddict
10-24-2011, 06:10 PM
thanks guys

enough tweakability to be dangerous in the wrong hands (mine :D)

Titanium Dome
10-24-2011, 07:39 PM
thanks guys

enough tweakability to be dangerous in the wrong hands (mine :D)

I try to apply the KISS principle, but ultimately it takes a little more than that. Fortunately, it doesn't take OCD to get it right, either. Just invite some technically inclined dudes over to your place and be sure one of 'em brings a calibrated mic and FuzzMeasure. Give 'em a beer and some chips, and let them do the work. :cheers:

grumpy
10-25-2011, 08:55 AM
I think I just heard a bullet from Open Range whiz past my head :p but sure...

Meanwhile, I'd suggest experimenting with the stack as full-range,
as that's a professionally pre-flogged out arrangement.

No one can tell you what is 'right' for the bass level controls, so season
to taste (probably finding at least one position that works at your nominal
listening level).

JBLAddict
10-25-2011, 02:27 PM
I'm still working on that invite ;)

I will admit however, that I feel a little silly asking for FuzzMeasure/mike calibrations when I'm powering these fine speakers (for now) with a 75WPC HK AVR that doesn't offer the kind of EQ that it would take to use the plots, right? :confused: I guess we could effectively alter LF levels on the PS from the plots ?

Mr. Widget
10-25-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm still working on that invite ;)

I will admit however, that I feel a little silly asking for FuzzMeasure/mike calibrations when I'm powering these fine speakers (for now) with a 75WPC HK AVR that doesn't offer the kind of EQ that it would take to use the plots, right? :confused: I guess we could effectively alter LF levels on the PS from the plots ?For speakers as refined as your Performance Series speakers you really don't want to get involved in any EQ. The measurements will help setting the balance between the sub, your PS1400s, and the PT800s... but even that should really be dialed in by ear, though it is nice to see what you are hearing.


Widget

JBLAddict
10-25-2011, 03:09 PM
For speakers as refined as your Performance Series speakers you really don't want to get involved in any EQ. The measurements will help setting the balance between the sub, your PS1400s, and the PT800s... but even that should really be dialed in by ear, though it is nice to see what you are hearing.


Widget

Good point.

I will admit that while at times I wasn't happy with a perceived "overabundance" of bass from the L7, I do seem to be going to a bit of a withdrawal/adjustment to the PS/PT stacks. There is an enveloping fullness to the L7 that I miss. Can't quite find the right words to describe it. I'm not sure if I simply need to adjust to better drivers with more refinement and a more neutral design, or if I need to increase the PS1400 output level from "0" where they now sit....suppose this is where the measurements will come into play. On the plus side, I drove the L7s all the way to the storage unit, put them on a cart and said "can't do it" and took em back home to the garage. Hopefully I can arrange to have the "tech savvy dudes" over for the measurements of both systems to "see" what I think I'm hearing. :)

P.S. (no pun intended) if any owners of PS Stacks and L7 have any insight into what I'm talking about would love to hear it.

Don C
10-25-2011, 03:42 PM
After fooling with the level knob on the sub for a while, I settled on leaving it all the way up, all the time. But I wouldn't claim that any science was involved. That's just the way I liked it.

JBLAddict
10-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Good points. I think you're correct that adjusting the LF to taste is a wise move!

rdgrimes
10-26-2011, 01:03 PM
Patience and persistence wins out. I got one pair of the PT800 corner brackets from the eBay seller for $25. Still one pair left if somebody wants to try for the same deal.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/230663422737?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

I got these today. As I expected, heavy as hell. Came in original packaging. These things would easily hold a 100# speaker. Too bad I have no use for them. ;)

Titanium Dome
10-26-2011, 10:27 PM
I got these today. As I expected, heavy as hell. Came in original packaging. These things would easily hold a 100# speaker. Too bad I have no use for them. ;)

I've got two boxes of the darn things--never even opened them. They came with other Performance Series packages that I picked up. I've tried to think of ways to use them. I might actually be able to use at least two of them if I go 5.1 with the PT250s when they're done. :dont-know:

Titanium Dome
12-11-2011, 06:48 PM
I'm still working on that invite ;)

I will admit however, that I feel a little silly asking for FuzzMeasure/mike calibrations when I'm powering these fine speakers (for now) with a 75WPC HK AVR that doesn't offer the kind of EQ that it would take to use the plots, right? :confused: I guess we could effectively alter LF levels on the PS from the plots ?

In two weeks, it'll be exactly two months since this post. I guess we shouldn't expect anything in 2011? :dont-know:

Titanium Dome
12-11-2011, 07:14 PM
A nice thing... the "PT250" is already (IMO) at the level where comparing things like sources and front ends is interesting. This, in a room that most would think would present a few...
challenges :) ... a topic that came up at lunch, including a replay of some Toole-ish thinking
about room design and accuracy in replay, vs. what the sampled populous responds to as being an enjoyable listening experience.

For some reason, the kludgey combination of MacOSX, Parallels, Windows7, London Architect, USB-serial converter, BSS-366 didn't want to play in Peoria this time...
Next time, for sure :o:

We had a good (too brief) time anyway (as has been mentioned)... Thanks Doug.

Yesterday, Mac OSX, Parallels, Windows 7, London Architect, the BSS-366T, et al redeemed themselves, as did the operator. :rotfl: We got everything working so well that grumpy was able to create a nearly flat system response, and boy did it suck, especially when compared to the pre-existing yet incomplete setting stored in memory. I guess if we were going to sit 1 Meter from each speaker it would have been better, but at normal listening distance, it was bad.

So some crossovers were changed, some EQ 0-ed out and reconfigured, gain adjusted for certain drivers, and the mic moved back, and things improved. A lot. Now I'll live with the PT250s for a while to see how I like them this way.

One thing for certain, the presence of a great looking graph says little about how you'll like the sound, especially when in-room response plays such a big factor in final pleasure (or lack thereof). grumpy kept at it bringing them to a more pleasing sound, and we easily could have spent another six hours tweaking. However, a pitcher of strawberry margaritas and a platter of tacos was waiting, so...

:drive: :cheers:

Titanium Dome
12-11-2011, 07:24 PM
To make things a little easier on grumpy, I brought down a second monitor to attach to his MacBook pro. The MBP showed the FuzzMeasure screen, and the ACER flat screen showed London Soundweb. The 908Ti driver was the most challenging, and eventually the tweaking got so complex (as seen in the second photo) that he erased the entire thing and started over. Then he nailed the driver with just two tweaks and a crossover change.

rpatt
12-12-2011, 04:46 AM
Glad to hear the project is working out.

grumpy
12-12-2011, 07:23 AM
Lesson learned: with so much processing power at one's fingertips,
it's easy to go overboard with individual driver EQ and absolutely suck the life out of the sound.
Nothing new for those who have been down this road before, but there's also nothing like making
your own mistakes while learning:)

Side note for those who may have heard this system in the last few months: somewhere
along the line, the initial individual driver EQ parameters were dropped from the processor
program... so what was being demoed consisted of generic crossover curves -only- :o:.
(my problem learning London Architect and how to load/save/restore programs on the BSS units)

This last round brought the vocal range forward as well as shelving up the top octaves in
this particular room (needed). Bass quality (IMO) was also improved with a bit of a low-Q
reduction ~50Hz, while extension remained impressive.

The FR plot shown was not the end result... that was while we were working our way down,
starting at the top end and listening for driver integration on the way toward lower frequencies...
it was simple to turn off individual drivers via the software and focus on pairs or groupings.
This seemed to work out well, but made me wonder what a real professional's development
process might look like...

I'm quite sure many of the particular adjustments would not be appropriate in a room with different geometry.

That 2nd monitor really sped things up :) Thanks Dome!

Titanium Dome
12-12-2011, 08:35 AM
I'm quite sure many of the particular adjustments would not be appropriate in a room with different geometry.

That 2nd monitor really sped things up :) Thanks Dome!

That's the beauty and bane of the process. Ultimately the room and the system are brought together in ways that a stock system with factory networks would be hard pressed to duplicate, even with fancy-pants auto EQ . I should add "eventually" the room and the system are brought together, because grumpy put in a lot of time on this. Over the course many months we certainly have 100 hours into it, not counting any exploration of BSS/London Soundweb he did on his own and any time I put into cabinet acquisition/work/modification, driver acquisition/removal/installation, equipment set up and connection, and fussing about.

When I write "we" I mostly mean "he", but heck, I was there the whole time. ;) So while the 2nd monitor might have sped things up, it was really grumpy who sped it up by knowing what the heck he was doing while I observed and commented.

So the PT250 lives, and there may be more to come. My next step is to get a pair of PT800s and a PC600 integrated into the room for a 5.1 set up.

BTW, you'd love to hear what grumpy's Getz/Gilberto SACD sounds like on such a system. Freakin' awesome! (Now I have to get it.)

Mr. Widget
12-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Lesson learned: with so much processing power at one's fingertips,
it's easy to go overboard with individual driver EQ and absolutely suck the life out of the sound.
Nothing new for those who have been down this road before, but there's also nothing like making
your own mistakes while learning:) :yes:

I remember the first time I saw/heard a DEQX demo. It was at CES and the top folks from DEQX were showing their system using a pair of small B+W loudspeakers. They had the speakers set up so that you could hear them as they came from the factory with all of the lumps and bumps and then they would bypass the internal crossovers and play the same music fully EQ'd using all of the formidable power of DEQX. The graphs were impressive, but obviously an engineer was doing the driving... not someone who trusted his ears more than his eyes.

I still bought one and began using it... I found out that flat is the goal, but just because it measures flat with your mic in a particular room and at a particular spot, it doesn't mean that it is flat... also as you pointed out, too much of a good thing is no longer a good thing.

As for flat, due to the nature of our recordings we want our "flat response" to be tilted down 5-10 dB from 50Hz to 20KHz.


Widget

Robh3606
12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
"As for flat, due to the nature of our recordings we want our "flat response" to be tilted down 5-10 dB from 50Hz to 20KHz."

We do?? Check this out and guess what it is.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
12-12-2011, 12:31 PM
We do?? I should have been more specific... we want an in room response to be tilted. An anechoic response should be reasonably flat, which will yield a tilted in room response.




Check this out and guess what it is.I'm going out on a limb and guessing it's a speaker's frequency response plot. :p


Widget

Titanium Dome
12-12-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't care so much if it's overly flat up top as long as there's a big bump at the bottom.

OTOH, it's hard not to desire an attractive top end as well, even if it's a little forward.

Wait.. what were we talking about?

Oh yeah, PT250.

Widget, if you're back down in LA you can give them another listen, then you can break out the ARCOS and bring the Two Jims closer to perfection.

4313B
12-12-2011, 03:11 PM
Here's an Everest II in room response curve that yields performance about as good as it gets.54026

grumpy
12-12-2011, 03:49 PM
That's helpful/useful... one of the nice features of a unit like the BSS is that you can
overlay such a room curve without having to fool with the driver EQ or basic crossovers.
We may have overdone the top end some, but it did improve intelligibility in that particular
room, without overdoing sibilants... the bottom end looked very much like that shown
in the Everest K2 room-response plot (after some taming). Lucky, I guess :)

Robh3606
12-12-2011, 05:12 PM
Here's an Everest II in room response curve that yields performance about as good as it gets

Those are corrected curves. That's not the real in room response it's after processing through DSP device. No??

Rob

grumpy
12-12-2011, 06:36 PM
I assumed it was a target (red) over measured room response (blue/green) after running it through
something like an SDEC-4500... :dont-know: (blue = green, but smoothed) ... looks like that's what's
in the plot's legend.

RedCoat23
01-11-2012, 02:36 PM
I've been looking at the standard offering of a dipole for the performance series - the PT520WS, and given the quality of drivers used in a standard stacked front of PT800/PS1400 I was looking for something a little better without having to go the trouble of using the Synthesis S4Ai and cutting a section of the wall...

I see Monitor Audio have produced some nice Dipoles that might be worth considering

54408

Official Site - http://www.monitoraudio.co.uk/products/gold-gx/gxfx/
Better Pics - http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MRGXFX&variation=PIABLK

Thoughts?

rpatt
01-11-2012, 05:33 PM
There are some S2As on ebay.

JBLAddict
01-16-2012, 03:12 PM
On the PS Engineering Design Specification, why does the supplier for the LE14H-3, 908Ti, 904Ti list "Nexus", similar to how the TMo25 lists, as we know, Audax. Are the LF, MB, MF outsourced as well?

Titanium Dome
02-09-2012, 10:02 PM
On the PS Engineering Design Specification, why does the supplier for the LE14H-3, 908Ti, 904Ti list "Nexus", similar to how the TMo25 lists, as we know, Audax. Are the LF, MB, MF outsourced as well?

Since the move out of Northridge, most everything is manufactured somewhere else besides JBL. It's still designed by JBL, but not manufactured. JBL is out of the driver (component) business.

Look here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30625-Anything-bad-to-say-against-Mackenzie-recone-kits&p=325736&viewfull=1#post325736

Titanium Dome
02-09-2012, 10:18 PM
I wanted to capture the essence of another thread whose content might get lost over time if it's not incorporated here. The basic issue is the relative compatibility of the PT800 to LF or LFE units other than the PS1400. The simple answer is that any sub that can crossover at 80Hz will work with the PT800, but none will have the same synergy as the PT800/PS1400 being designed for each other.

Member mikebake has a pair of member 4313B's custom-built Sub1500 subs set up with specific attention to time alignment spacing, cabinet volume, and other transitional/crossover considerations that according to Mike are pretty darn compelling. I've no doubt that one could take the basic design philosophy of the PS1400 and improve on it with a custom design. I contributed some minor cabinet dimensions and spacing to help in the build process. Even the designer says a little more enclosure volume could be a good thing for the stock LE14H-3 driver.

The question then becomes, "Can one improve upon it with stock, consumer designs," i.e., a 1500 Array in place of a PS1400? I think the answer is "maybe," and also that it's possible to mess up a good thing rather than improve it.

When I get a little more time and as the discussion continues, I'll add some comments about the plusses and minuses of such an endeavor.

Mr. Widget
02-09-2012, 11:38 PM
Since the move out of Northridge, most everything is manufactured somewhere else besides JBL. It's still designed by JBL, but not manufactured. JBL is out of the driver (component) business.

Look here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?30625-Anything-bad-to-say-against-Mackenzie-recone-kits&p=325736&viewfull=1#post325736JBL still builds drivers... just not in California. They have been building some pro drivers in Mexico for years, and today most of the better Synthesis drivers and Pro drivers are built there in the plant that effectively replaced the manufacturing lines in Northridge.

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

Mike Ronesia
02-09-2012, 11:59 PM
Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

This is what I love about the PS/PT combo. They are great for music IMO. :applaud:

rpatt
02-10-2012, 01:48 AM
I used only HTPS400s crossed over at 80-hz for about a year with my PT800s. I was really amazed at the improvement of adding two PS1400s in 4-way stacked configuration. It really filled a hole in the mid bass area.

pathfindermwd
02-10-2012, 02:27 AM
I wanted to capture the essence of another thread whose content might get lost over time if it's not incorporated here. The basic issue is the relative compatibility of the PT800 to LF or LFE units other than the PS1400. The simple answer is that any sub that can crossover at 80Hz will work with the PT800, but none will have the same synergy as the PT800/PS1400 being designed for each other.

Member mikebake has a pair of member 4313B's custom-built Sub1500 subs set up with specific attention to time alignment spacing, cabinet volume, and other transitional/crossover considerations that according to Mike are pretty darn compelling. I've no doubt that one could take the basic design philosophy of the PS1400 and improve on it with a custom design. I contributed some minor cabinet dimensions and spacing to help in the build process. Even the designer says a little more enclosure volume could be a good thing for the stock LE14H-3 driver.

The question then becomes, "Can one improve upon it with stock, consumer designs," i.e., a 1500 Array in place of a PS1400? I think the answer is "maybe," and also that it's possible to mess up a good thing rather than improve it.

When I get a little more time and as the discussion continues, I'll add some comments about the plusses and minuses of such an endeavor.


JBL still builds drivers... just not in California. They have been building some pro drivers in Mexico for years, and today most of the better Synthesis drivers and Pro drivers are built there in the plant that effectively replaced the manufacturing lines in Northridge.

Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget

Hmmm Kinda weird someone replying to your thread in another thread.:wtf:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32451-PT800-System-Dilemma

Titanium Dome
02-10-2012, 08:19 AM
Hmmm Kinda weird someone replying to your thread in another thread.:wtf:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32451-PT800-System-Dilemma

Well now, don't take it personally, though I can understand why you think it's kinda weird.

Down the road in six months or a year when someone has a question about the Performance Series that's similar to yours, this may be the first place they look, so we're just trying to aggregate as much as possible here. Also, if asked, we can all recall this thread but might have a harder time trying to recall several disparate threads on the same or similar topics. Then we'd need to resort to the search feature, which sometimes works well and sometimes does not, sending us to scores of threads that might have one reference to the PT800.

Lots of info about the Performance Series, its components, drivers, and characteristics can be found in many other threads, but as these other threads wane and eventually go further down the reading list we try to get most of the info in here so there's a more or less central location and starting point. :)

4313B
02-10-2012, 08:52 AM
Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.I used a pair of 2242H subs crossed over at 80 Hz. Mike is using a pair of the SUB1500's. I think he's crossing over at the usual 80 Hz though instead of the 'special' PT800/PS1400 stack setting of something like 130 Hz. The 2242H wouldn't work correctly up to 130 Hz due to its rising response.

The B380, B460, Citation 5.4 or 7.4 should work fine since they are nice and flat just like the PS1400. The PS1400 would have looked out of sorts if it had been built with the 'proper' volume for true subwoofer duty. I suppose Jerry could have played around with the parameters a bit to cut down on the Vb requirement but what we have is what we have. The PS1400 is only lacking roughly 5 Hz extension compared to all the above mentioned subwoofers.

With the outstanding bang for the buck you are currently offering on the PS1400 though it's pretty much a slam dunk decision. From my perspective the price/performance ratio of the 1500 Array compared to the PS1400 just isn't there. I'm tempted to get a pair of the PS1400's to put with my Tannoy HT.

Titanium Dome
02-16-2012, 11:02 AM
Now about substituting a Sub1500 or a 1500 Array for the PS1400? No, wrong, don't even think about it... the JBL Sub1500 woofer and it's cousin the W1500H are fabulous subs, but they are not woofers... the PS1400 when used with the PT800 is really more of a woofer than a sub.


Widget




The B380, B460, Citation 5.4 or 7.4 should work fine since they are nice and flat just like the PS1400.

The PS1400 is only lacking roughly 5 Hz extension compared to all the above mentioned subwoofers.

With the outstanding bang for the buck you are currently offering on the PS1400 though it's pretty much a slam dunk decision. From my perspective the price/performance ratio of the 1500 ARRAY compared to the PS1400 just isn't there. I'm tempted to get a pair of the PS1400's to put with my Tannoy HT.

Getting a pair of 1500 ARRAYs at an astounding price like pathfindermwd did is a real treat. I sure thought about it, but many things took me off the path, so to speak. The biggest single factor was concern about compatibility.

Now, those subs will work with any decent speaker, so I'm not referring to the PT800 and 1500 being unable to be used together. Of course they can be. My question was whether or not they'd be as good a fit as the PT800/PS1400/HTPS400 or would the PT800/1500 ARRAY combo actually be better? The 1500 would reduce the body count by one per channel, since it would replace both the PS1400 and the HTPS400. That seemed quite attractive. The 1500 also goes to 400 Hz and can crossover as high as 140 Hz, so it could conceivably take on both roles.

However, when I examined the crossover slopes used by the PS1400 that are specific to the PT800 in a docked situation and started thinking about how the 1500's or my pre/pro's more generic slopes may alter that intended transition, I began to lose confidence that it would be an imporvement. No doubt the bottom end would be better, and I am a bass whore, but I really like the clean transition the stock solution offers at 130 Hz, which can be very audible if done poorly. With the HTPS400s handling the stuff below 40 Hz, the transition at that point is still important but far less critical in my listening experience.

Naturally, if one were to use the PS1400 as an unattached sub crossed over at 80 Hz, then the 1500 would work just as effectively and produce a better bottom end all the way 'round. That could rock many a listener's world, including my own.

Nonetheless, I've got four complete PT800/PS1400 stacks and four HTPS400 subs which are already in place and paid for, so thinking about getting two 1500 ARRAYs seems silly. Plus, as 4313B wrote, the price/performance ratio was out of whack since I could've gotten four PS1400s for the price of the two Arrays, and four of those placed properly in the room would be hard to beat from the standpoint of leveling out the bass and providing a ton of LF reinforcement.

Still, two 1500s...:crying: Who wouldn't want that? If I didn't already have all the Performance gear, I probably would have jumped, because I'll bet the bottom end is insane in pathfindermwd's room, and I am when all is said and done still a bass whore.

pathfindermwd
02-16-2012, 09:59 PM
Funny, the decision to buy both the Performance Series Stacks and the Array 1500's both came from this thread. Buried somewhere in here is Mr. Widget's impression and general recommendation of the Array 1500's during the segment where the Sub 1500's were making their appearance as the DIY low frequency choice of some. The volume of the PS1400 was discussed and it seemed generally agreed that it needed a bit more to do the LE14H-3 justice. The Sub 1500 was optimized for small enclosures and given the two-piece stack design seemed a good choice.

In searching for a piece for multi-purpose sub duty I considered the sub 1500 but saw the 2245 as probably the ultimate low frequency air mover. I never thought I would ever buy an Array 1500 as they are quite expensive, and as 4313B points out, probably not a great value for the money (retail). But as I continued to fail getting a sub project together I started to see that even if I could build a sub I would still have to power it, and finish it.. nicely. DIY slowly became alot less attractive. I just so happened to be lusting for awhile over a Synthesis One (2245/non-powered box) in a "synthesis" search on ebay when the 4 Arrays 1500's appeared. I made an offer for two of them hoping that a larger sale would help them bring the price down for each. It was really kind of a fluke, I never expected them to accept the offer, and when the word came back I was a little terrified, and wasn't sure if I had made a big mistake, or had the chance of a lifetime. Well, at least the long search for a sub had finally come to an end!

The array 1500's were not intended to replace the PS1400 purchase, but I became worried that the sale was not going to happen after the PS1400's had not shipped for 3 weeks. I noted that the Array 1500's have a nice rubberized sloped top which I thought was an optimal transition to the PT800's baffle as there had been some discussion about reflection off the top of the flat PS1400. To me the Array 1500 enclosure looks like it was better designed for the job.

When the PT800 was discussed as a full range driver some mis-understood that it needed to be protected from low frequency signals, to which 4313B clarified that it wouldn't play below that, not that they would hurt them. I also dumped full signal into them, even with the bass turned up somewhat accidentally, and it didn't bother them, even at higher levels. If the PT800's were used in a full signal way I suspect that they would mate alot better with the Array 1500. If it were to be done, that might be the way to do it; full range.

We all know that good bass is hard to find. It is not easy to out-perform a 2214 or LE14H in a way that greatly improves the sound. I have now accumulated several pairs of speakers and have two systems running. Depending upon the room I can see usefulness for two of these subs separately or together. Also, I see them as a representative example of JBL's best that one can be proud to own.

Will the Array 1500's be worth the price of admission? I haven't really run a sub with any of my systems, so there won't be much I can compare it to. What I will be looking for is simply more of what I already have, more good deep bass. Mouth dropping deep bass!

On a final note I would like to acknowledge how important threads like this are for someone like myself who doesn't get many opportunities to audition this equipment. The discussions of well respected forum members are very helpful in identifying quality gear, not readily available here. But having read through this thread a couple of times I wish that it had chapter headings and an index so that the important contributions can more easily be located. It's a fun read once, but there are large gaps where relevant info become scarce. Heck, there is even a big brawl at the beginning of it. What is needed is an on-topic button that can sort out some of the more conversational posts that have bloated it's page numbers. Of course, who knew it would grow to be so large.

Titanium Dome
02-16-2012, 10:59 PM
Mouth dropping deep bass!

I've had a few club girls refer to "pants dropping bass" but that would be way off topic, plus it was way out of my league.




What is needed is an on-topic button that can sort out some of the more conversational posts that have bloated it's page numbers. Of course, who knew it would grow to be so large.

From your keyboard to God's (or a Mod's) ear...

A couple of times forum members have tried to distill certain threads like this into more of a compendium format, but it always gets bogged down as a nearly impossible task given the lack of tools and administrative access to do it.

pathfindermwd
02-17-2012, 01:19 AM
I've had a few club girls refer to "pants dropping bass" but that would be way off topic, plus it was way out of my league.



Well now for that kind of off- topic stuff, there should be a "really good off topic" button.:D