PDA

View Full Version : JBL Performance Series



Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9

Hoerninger
07-07-2009, 09:29 AM
I have not seen this debated here(or at least recently) about the need for more than just one sub.

"Multisubs" by Todd Welti (Harman International Industries)
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

"Based on the assumption of a rectangular room and a seating area in the center or center-rear of the room that there is no justification to use more than four (subwoofers). To the contrary, it was observed that the LF factor actually went down for larger numbers of subwoofers." (p.27) " Two and four subwoofers at the wall midpoints are still the best configurations overall." (p.26)
____________
Peter

jblsound
07-07-2009, 11:00 AM
"Multisubs" by Todd Welti (Harman International Industries)
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

"Based on the assumption of a rectangular room and a seating area in the center or center-rear of the room that there is no justification to use more than four (subwoofers). To the contrary, it was observed that the LF factor actually went down for larger numbers of subwoofers." (p.27) " Two and four subwoofers at the wall midpoints are still the best configurations overall." (p.26)
____________
Peter
Generally speaking having subs at the 4 mid-points or the 4 corners is usually best. But its also room dependent. I've got rectangular room, with 4 hard corners. I do have the L55s (used as subs) at the side wall mid-points, but I have my main subs stacked with the L/R speakers, as those two locations showed to be the hotest, besides the corners.

St. Anger
07-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Very impressive. Thanks for sharing.

Edit: Where did you put the Wii's sensor bar?


The sensor bar for the Wii is sitting on top of the right front L8400P.

St. Anger
07-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Nice setup and room. The PS is indeed a very good system. Must really pound with 6 subs. :applaud:
I'm only using two real subs, two L55s for secondary subs and I get slamed.

Keep in mind I am only running 4 subs, the PS1400's are running as "fullrange" in the stacks.

With that being said, the system really kicks a$$ with hard rock :D, the concrete floor of the basement vibrates and I can feel the bass pound in my chest. I have not done any optimization of placement or settings, they were just hooked up and ran. I did run with just the front 2 for about a month and was quite surprised how much "fuller" the sound was when I placed the 2 rear subs in service.

jblsound
07-07-2009, 03:34 PM
Keep in mind I am only running 4 subs, the PS1400's are running as "fullrange" in the stacks.

With that being said, the system really kicks a$$ with hard rock :D, the concrete floor of the basement vibrates and I can feel the bass pound in my chest. I have not done any optimization of placement or settings, they were just hooked up and ran. I did run with just the front 2 for about a month and was quite surprised how much "fuller" the sound was when I placed the 2 rear subs in service.

The PT800/PS1400 stacks full range are still subs in use. Not having a sub connected for LFE doesn't make it any less of a sub, its still playing the sub frequencies just not the encoded LFE track.
But, yes, adding other subs to the mix does fill out the entire area with bass.

Titanium Dome
07-07-2009, 04:10 PM
Keep in mind I am only running 4 subs, the PS1400's are running as "fullrange" in the stacks.


Yes, that makes a difference and makes sense when stacked.

Titanium Dome
07-07-2009, 04:11 PM
The PT800/PS1400 stacks full range are still subs in use. Not having a sub connected for LFE doesn't make it any less of a sub, its still playing the sub frequencies just not the encoded LFE track.


Huh?

jblsound
07-07-2009, 05:17 PM
Huh?

Those PT800/PS1400 are receiving a full range signal, which includes the bass. And unless you setup the AVR for front: small, which would be stupid, the PS1400 are in fact playing the bass.

As long as the AVR is set for fronts:large/full those PS1400 are going to play down to 28htz. That's the normal bass, not the LFE track.

Titanium Dome
07-07-2009, 05:54 PM
Those PT800/PS1400 are receiving a full range signal, which includes the bass. And unless you setup the AVR for front: small, which would be stupid, the PS1400 are in fact playing the bass.

As long as the AVR is set for fronts:large/full those PS1400 are going to play down to 28htz. That's the normal bass, not the LFE track.

Well, if it's "normal bass" and the unit is crossing over way up at 130 Hz, then why would you call it a subwoofer?

There is a way for the PT800/PS1400 stack to be configured as both full-range AND have the PS1400s serve as LFE subs at the same time. It's page 12 of the owner's manual. Unless St. Anger has configured his units this way, then he's only running four subs as he wrote.

Anyway, it's probably all semantics.

jblsound
07-07-2009, 07:02 PM
Well, if it's "normal bass" and the unit is crossing over way up at 130 Hz, then why would you call it a subwoofer?

There is a way for the PT800/PS1400 stack to be configured as both full-range AND have the PS1400s serve as LFE subs at the same time. It's page 12 of the owner's manual. Unless St. Anger has configured his units this way, then he's only running four subs as he wrote.

Anyway, it's probably all semantics.

Not all subs are created equal as to their low end roll off. My SUB1500s will play a lot lower than the PS1400. But a sub is a sub is a sub.

But no matter how you connect the 1400s they will be -3db @ 28htz, as long as the AVR is not set to fronts:small when connected with speaker wire.

The differences as to those various connections are:
1) The crossover point to the PT800, using the sub internal XO, is 130 htz
2) Still stacked but the 1400s connected via AVR coax subout and its 80 htz
3) Connected for LFE only then it receives the encoded .1 channel.

But in very possible setup the PS1400s are playing down to 28 htz, its intended sub output.

Mike Ronesia
07-07-2009, 07:57 PM
That room sure looks nice. I would be interested in knowing what you think of the 84's vs. the 14's. Right now I'm using the 84's because they are what I can afford but sure would be interested in how they compare in a a/b situation setup the same way.

Right now my setup is 5.1 but for awhile I was using the 84 xo's and running the fronts as large.

rdgrimes
07-07-2009, 08:49 PM
That room sure looks nice. I would be interested in knowing what you think of the 84's vs. the 14's. Right now I'm using the 84's because they are what I can afford but sure would be interested in how they compare in a a/b situation setup the same way.

Right now my setup is 5.1 but for awhile I was using the 84 xo's and running the fronts as large.
The L8400P goes deeper and sounds cleaner doing it. The PS1400 is a monster woofer and cab that really shines with music and not so much for LFE. They tend towards the "boomey" sound if not set up right. I find they make a good team with the L8400. The PS1400 has a "LF" control, separate from the LFE level, which lets you tune all the <130Hz sound to your needs. Effectively, the PS1400's low end is in the 30Hz range, which is perfect for music. For LFE the L8400 is stronger and cleaner. But the PS1400 is easily the better for the 80-130Hz range, which is what the PT800/PS1400 stack calls for.

Titanium Dome
07-07-2009, 10:21 PM
It's the sealed vs. ported cabinet topic again. The PS1400 is more musical to my ears, but the L8400P is deeper and more authoritative in the LFE. The other 12" sealed sub is the HTPS400, and it is significantly better and more expensive than the L8400P.

It's a true THX sub, and I now have two of them running in the Performance music system. I also have four PS1400s in the system at the front L and R and rear L and R, stacked with PT800s and running as "large" with the pre/pro crossing the stack over at 60 Hz to the HTPS400 pair.

So, I guess I'll wait until someone tells me if I have two subs or six, in which case I'll be in violation of the multisubs recommendation.:D

Mike Ronesia
07-07-2009, 11:19 PM
Sounds like you have two to me.;)

Looking at the graghs for the PT800 I thought they seemed very flat from 80hz on. Are you suggesting that paired with the PS1400 130hz is optimal but with the L8400's it might be lower? I know 130hz is what JBL set the stacks to so I assume that is optimal but I have my LFE set at 100hz right now because I figured the PT800's would do better in that 100-130 range then the L8400's. From a critical listening standpoint I'm not sure I noticed a difference but I might not have been using the right test media.

rdgrimes
07-08-2009, 05:47 AM
Sounds like you have two to me.;)

Looking at the graghs for the PT800 I thought they seemed very flat from 80hz on. Are you suggesting that paired with the PS1400 130hz is optimal but with the L8400's it might be lower? I know 130hz is what JBL set the stacks to so I assume that is optimal but I have my LFE set at 100hz right now because I figured the PT800's would do better in that 100-130 range then the L8400's. From a critical listening standpoint I'm not sure I noticed a difference but I might not have been using the right test media.
If you're bored, you could get some sweep tones and start listening for flat spots or peaks in the output from 40-160. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=742969&page=1&pp=30 I think that one has sweep tones. Of course, sweep tones are not music and your ear is the final judge. Be aware that that test disc has some tones on it that can blow speakers if not used carefully.

jblsound
07-08-2009, 07:14 AM
It's the sealed vs. ported cabinet topic again. The PS1400 is more musical to my ears, but the L8400P is deeper and more authoritative in the LFE. The other 12" sealed sub is the HTPS400, and it is significantly better and more expensive than the L8400P.

It's a true THX sub, and I now have two of them running in the Performance music system. I also have four PS1400s in the system at the front L and R and rear L and R, stacked with PT800s and running as "large" with the pre/pro crossing the stack over at 60 Hz to the HTPS400 pair.

So, I guess I'll wait until someone tells me if I have two subs or six, in which case I'll be in violation of the multisubs recommendation.:D

As soon as you add a high pass XO point to a sub, in this case @ 60 htz, its no longer a true sub. But if you run those stacks to their natural low end of 28 htz they are.
btw. about how many total sqft does that PS system play to?

As to how many subs you want to use in any given system, use as many as it takes to get you off.:bouncy:

I've had as many as 5 subs in my HT, one connected to each of the LCRs and two at the side walls. It looked a bit too cluttered across the front, even for me with no WAF in the way either.

jblsound
07-08-2009, 07:27 AM
Sounds like you have two to me.;)

Looking at the graghs for the PT800 I thought they seemed very flat from 80hz on. Are you suggesting that paired with the PS1400 130hz is optimal but with the L8400's it might be lower? I know 130hz is what JBL set the stacks to so I assume that is optimal but I have my LFE set at 100hz right now because I figured the PT800's would do better in that 100-130 range then the L8400's. From a critical listening standpoint I'm not sure I noticed a difference but I might not have been using the right test media.

The 130 htz XO point has all to do with the specific drivers used (908/LE14H-3) and their precise C/C dimension when stacked.

As soon as you change that combo, using the L8400, or any other sub, then it will probably require a different XO for best sound. As to if you can tell a difference between using 80, 100, 120 XO points, that's a whole other topic.

I've tried different XO points with my PT800/SUB1500 stacks, don't know I could ever tell any difference, so I just run them at 80 htz.

Titanium Dome
07-08-2009, 08:52 AM
I have my LFE set at 100hz right now because I figured the PT800's would do better in that 100-130 range then the L8400's. From a critical listening standpoint I'm not sure I noticed a difference but I might not have been using the right test media.


As to if you can tell a difference between using 80, 100, 120 XO points, that's a whole other topic.

I've tried different XO points with my PT800/SUB1500 stacks, don't know I could ever tell any difference, so I just run them at 80 htz.

Yep, the 130 Hz crossover point is pretty specific to the stack, its drivers, and its physical relationship. That doesn't mean 130 Hz will not work with another LF driver, but it doesn't mean it will either. ;) Testing and experience will tell you.

I agree it's difficult to hear the difference in LF crossover points in a "normal" room, whatever that is. But if your room is extra bright/reflective or if it is very well tuned the changes can be quite obvious. rgrimes suggests tone sweeps, and that's a good place to begin, especially with SPL meter in hand or some FFT software on your laptop.

rdgrimes
07-08-2009, 09:28 AM
rgrimes suggests tone sweeps, and that's a good place to begin, especially with SPL meter in hand or some FFT software on your laptop.
I find it's not difficult to hear peaks and valleys in the response curve with sweep tones, especially slow sweeps in the bass ranges. That said, it's not necessarily true that one will prefer a flatter response in that range. But, it's a way to gauge what it's doing when changes are made. Audessey or YPAO will do much the same thing, and if one is able to see a graph of the results of that EQ, you'll get the same information.

jblsound
07-08-2009, 09:53 AM
I agree it's difficult to hear the difference in LF crossover points in a "normal" room, whatever that is. But if your room is extra bright/reflective or if it is very well tuned the changes can be quite obvious. rgrimes suggests tone sweeps, and that's a good place to begin, especially with SPL meter in hand or some FFT software on your laptop.

I've always considered my room to be neutral and of coarse I've got the mains well away from all walls. And as such, like I said, I'm not sure I ever noticed any difference in sound changing XOs.

Compared to your new room, if you heard this one, you'd probably think this is live. All depends on one's base perspective.

But now I can't really do it anymore, as my AVR635 no longer hears its own pink noise when I run the auto eq.:( So I have to leave it at 80.

Titanium Dome
07-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Compared to your new room, if you heard this one, you'd probably think this is live. All depends on one's base perspective.


My remaining Performance Series system is on the main floor, and since our main floor is so open, I've not felt the urge to do any room treatments, just keep the front right away from the side wall as much as possible.

Having heard the transformation of the Synthesis® room, I'm tempted to do more on the main floor, but it's basically 30' by '35 with three different floor elevations and ceilings heights from 8' to 24', so it's a little hard to conceptualize a coherent plan.

As it is, the Performance Series seems well able to perform to expectation in that space. Maybe Grumpy and I will find ways to improve it if I get him over for a real set up test.

jblsound
07-08-2009, 11:09 AM
As it is, the Performance Series seems well able to perform to expectation in that space. Maybe Grumpy and I will find ways to improve it if I get him over for a real set up test.

Yeah, I think the PS will work very well in most room situations. Although I've only had them in two rooms, MC in the LR and an on-wall stereo in this room, a few months ago.
Other than having the PT800s wall mounted for the surrounds, I've always had the LCRs at least 4 ft out from the wall and at least 4.5 ft from the adjoining sidewalls. Add L7 7 music or cinema and its superb.
Even if I were to wall mount the LCRs, I'd locate them in line with where they are free standing now, if I were to use an AT screen.

grumpy
07-08-2009, 12:46 PM
"...a real set up test"

Happy to oblige. I have test gear (FuzzMeasure/firewire mic-pre/calibrated omni-mic),
and can (mostly) follow directions if someone with substantial experience and area
knowledge were interested in suggesting specific tests or methodology ...
publicly or via PM. Otherwise it's boring, old 1m on/off-axis plots, near-field
measurements, and waterfall plots :).

jblsound
08-03-2009, 07:50 AM
As I was listening to an ONJ LP this morning, through a pair of PT800s it occured to me of the millions of NA audio enthusiasts how few of those, probably <1%, have had the pleasure of experiencing these fine speakers.

There are alot of good speakers out there, but one has to go quite far up the list to get better than the PS, even the so called better price/quality ID brands.

That <1% would be a direct result of there were very few retail stores that ever had the PS. Tweeters and NFM come to mind, and there may have been a few others around the country, but that's a long way from mass marketing.
And Synthesis dealers didn't seem to want to be bothered with the PS, as they already had the Synthesis 4 system, which was THX certified. Although had the PS been more like the Revel Gem2, with their much nicer boxes, might have pushed the Synthesis dealers a bit more.

MikeBrewster77
08-03-2009, 08:05 AM
As I was listening to an ONJ LP this morning, through a pair of PT800s it occured to me of the millions of NA audio enthusiasts how few of those, probably <1%, have had the pleasure of experiencing these fine speakers.

There are alot of good speakers out there, but one has to go quite far up the list to get better than the PS, even the so called better price/quality ID brands.


Agreed! When talking about my system I've yet to encounter a single person who has ever heard of them, let alone actually heard them. Given how impressive they are (especially at the price point) it's truly a shame that more people haven't had the opportunity to experience them.

rdgrimes
08-03-2009, 08:34 AM
FWIW, I've bought the 2 904ti drivers that were on eBay, and the single PT800 sold by rbs4000. The PT800 will prolly wind up as a parts unit, although I have no immediate need to part it out. So if anyone needs parts, I'll have some.

Titanium Dome
08-03-2009, 09:23 AM
FWIW, I've bought the 2 904ti drivers that were on eBay, and the single PT800 sold by rbs4000. The PT800 will prolly wind up as a parts unit, although I have no immediate need to part it out. So if anyone needs parts, I'll have some.

Then you owe me a royalty on the images that the seller of the 904Tis ripped off from me. You can make the royalty payment as a donation to LH.

You should have seen the smart-a$$ reply I got when I called him on selling his merchandise with pictures of my gear. :bash:

Titanium Dome
08-03-2009, 09:28 AM
As I was listening to an ONJ LP this morning, through a pair of PT800s it occured to me of the millions of NA audio enthusiasts how few of those, probably <1%, have had the pleasure of experiencing these fine speakers.

There are alot of good speakers out there, but one has to go quite far up the list to get better than the PS, even the so called better price/quality ID brands.


Yes, I'm still thrilled whenever I listen to them. I was thinking about retirement the other day and wondering when I'd have to start downsizing my life. What would I keep? Instinctively, I knew I'd keep the original L100s and the Performance Series.

Everything else, including the Synthesis® One Array, would have to go.

MikeBrewster77
08-03-2009, 09:35 AM
Yes, I'm still thrilled whenever I listen to them. I was thinking about retirement the other day and wondering when I'd have to start downsizing my life. What would I keep? Instinctively, I knew I'd keep the original L100s and the Performance Series.

Everything else, including the Synthesis® One Array, would have to go.

:jawdrop: REALLY?

Have you by any chance considered early retirement, 'cause I'd like to get in on that sell-off :p.

rdgrimes
08-03-2009, 09:49 AM
Then you owe me a royalty on the images that the seller of the 904Tis ripped off from me. You can make the royalty payment as a donation to LH.

You should have seen the smart-a$$ reply I got when I called him on selling his merchandise with pictures of my gear. :bash:
:biting: And you still owe me a set of 4 wall-mount brackets for PT800s, so let's call it even. :applaud:

Mike Ronesia
08-03-2009, 01:21 PM
:biting: And you still owe me a set of 4 wall-mount brackets for PT800s, so let's call it even. :applaud:

I got all mine.;)

Mike Ronesia
08-03-2009, 01:28 PM
Yes, I'm still thrilled whenever I listen to them. I was thinking about retirement the other day and wondering when I'd have to start downsizing my life. What would I keep? Instinctively, I knew I'd keep the original L100s and the Performance Series.

Everything else, including the Synthesis® One Array, would have to go.

Mine get some strange looks from people but a few friends know good sound and they're all impressed.

I'm getting excited about our new socialized medicine. It will open the door for a lot of people to retire sooner then planed. I can't tell you how many people I know that are ready to go if they can figure out how to cover medical.

rdgrimes
08-03-2009, 01:55 PM
I got all mine.;)
No, I think you got all mine. :(

Mike Ronesia
08-03-2009, 03:20 PM
No, I think you got all mine. :(

I'd be willing to trade them for the Ti's:applaud:

Titanium Dome
08-03-2009, 10:35 PM
:jawdrop: REALLY?

Have you by any chance considered early retirement, 'cause I'd like to get in on that sell-off :p.

The Performance Series is just so much more flexible. The Synthesis® system is obviously better but also more demanding. I can't imagine moving into a smaller house and trying to set it up. As it is, the house is barely large enough.

The Performance Series is easy to set up in almost any room and easy enough to fit in many configurations. The Synthesis® wants more space, dedicated 20 Amp circuits, custom calibration, etc.

rdgrimes
08-04-2009, 03:49 PM
FWIW, I've bought the 2 904ti drivers that were on eBay,
I got these today. They actually work! One thing that struck me is the amount of throw these drivers have. The rubber surrounds actually have a function. I see/feel very little excursion when they're in use, but they sure can move if they need to.

80sKid
08-05-2009, 06:42 AM
...I've bought ... on eBay... the single PT800...will prolly wind up as a parts unit...

Seems awful to destroy a beautiful speaker for parts.

Aren't these components available from Harman?

rdgrimes
08-06-2009, 09:20 AM
Seems awful to destroy a beautiful speaker for parts.

Aren't these components available from Harman?
Who said anything about "destroying"? Having a 7.2 PS system, an extra unit to save for the inevitability of needed parts is good sense. Acquiring it at a low price makes it more so. Some parts are available from Harman, most are not.

Mr. Widget
08-06-2009, 09:58 AM
Aren't these components available from Harman?They would certainly be available for a warranty repair and very likely an out of warranty repair, but JBL doesn't really sell raw speakers anymore... there is a very limited offering of JBL Pro drivers, but in general these drivers are not sold individually.

On a side note, to the casual observer of this site it would appear that the JBL Performance Series was made up of the PT800 and the PS1400. While those are part of the Performance Series, JBL offers electronics and numerous in-wall as well as enclosed loudspeakers as part of this line... you can get more info from the JBL site, but I was surprised to see just how extensive the line was.


Widget

rdgrimes
08-06-2009, 11:39 AM
On a side note, to the casual observer of this site it would appear that the JBL Performance Series was made up of the PT800 and the PS1400. While those are part of the Performance Series, JBL offers electronics and numerous in-wall as well as enclosed loudspeakers as part of this line... you can get more info from the JBL site, but I was surprised to see just how extensive the line was.


Widget
The Synthesis-Four is essentially the same hardware as well.

jonfu@ymail.com
08-06-2009, 11:56 AM
How did this happen? :blink:

http://content.screencast.com/users/J01001010/folders/Jing/media/82fb2768-4b92-4c72-8a1a-20a1f0a3145e/00000187.png

80sKid
08-06-2009, 11:14 PM
How did this happen? :blink:



Good question.

That listing of "performance series" products is a real mish-mash of models from various product lines.

In would say this is so because JBL choose to make these products available to their custom / "performance series" dealers (so they have diverse solutions at their disposal). But by no means are the majority of those products at the same performance level as the PC600 and PT800.

Titanium Dome
08-07-2009, 11:01 AM
This occurred in 2006 as linked to earlier in this now very long thread. :)

http://www.hometoys.com/news_detail.php?id=10513348

There's no question that the original Performance Series was centered on the PC600, PS1400, and HTPS400, with the HTPS400 as a sub sub (subwoofer substitute) in some markets, and the P81 and P941 in walls coming for those who wanted in wall options without going to the THX certified Synthesis Four Performance near-clones.

Slare
08-07-2009, 04:34 PM
I have a pair of Control 28's in my basement and for what they are (a meager little 8" 2-way) the things rock. Taking it easy on the low bass, they will really pump the sound out and eat everything a 250/600 peak amp will feed them. Far as compact outdoor monitors go, they really are "Performance" worthy.

I'd say the P1x subs are the ones stinking up the lineup.:D They at least LOOK to be carbon copy updates of the E/P Northridge subs, which stink. Sloppy, sloppy, subs. Appalling those subs are in the same line as the 400. 8400 should be in there.

Titanium Dome
08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
I'll probably make a new thread elsewhere, but it's appropriate to at least mention the passing of J. Gordon Holt in July. This Stereophile founder produced an excellent review of the JBL Performance Series for UltimateAV, which I've linked often over the years.

Holt was willing to give credit where credit was due, and praised the Performance Series at a time when JBL was languishing under the "junk but loud" label.

Thanks, Gordon. :applaud:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/index.html

mikebake
12-23-2009, 08:27 AM
BOING! Here comes the monster thread back to life. 1293 posts and 77K views is just too good to let it rot away like some stinking pachyderm.......................:D
I get to spend precious little time at all listening to music (or movies) on my Performance system. Ever.
Built the fire last night, glass of wine, and the 9 year old and I retreated to the cave; got to play a wide variety of music, and made the commitment to listen to these things more often.
I also connected the cable box and ran through a bunch of music channels; a stumbled across a contemp. Christian channel with just a female voice and piano. One of the best modern job of recording piano I've heard. I spend alot of Sundays next to an excellent pianist on stage playing a nice grand, so my reference is fresh.
The PS held up quite nicely, along with the sub1500's.
Also watched Angels and Demons, and was perplexed on how to tame the constant and overblown LF/VLF, without turning on lights and reacquainting myself with the AVR menu. I just shut one sub off. Perfect. Must have been the wine, took me 20 minutes to come up with that one...............................:o:

4313B
12-23-2009, 08:47 AM
Yeah, it's amazing how much VLF those things put out being that they are so inefficient and all.

I definitely prefer them to the 2242-based subs.

mikebake
12-23-2009, 09:33 AM
The boys rented GI Joe and watched it last night; in the beginning it has that ultra VLF kinda gimmicky effect, but man, it moves air and works the hell out out of the subs. As for inefficiency, I'm in a smallish basement room with block walls, but I only use two SS amps with basically 200 watt power supplies. Plenty.

Titanium Dome
12-23-2009, 09:34 AM
The Performance Series came up briefly in my visit to Northridge. The designer is still pleased with them, though the PS1400 has been a little problematic. I know I've had my issues with it, and I got a tip or two.

Lately the built-in amps have been unreliable, so I need to try to get them fixed or do something radical like remove them completely and seal the back of the box. Then I can use external amps, maybe those 600W/ch Haflers.

Taking the amp out would slightly increase interior volume, which might or might not be a big deal.

mikebake
12-23-2009, 09:38 AM
I knew you'd show up here in short order. This thread is like a bar you haven't been in for awhile.
I like the driver alot, but I wondered about those amps. My buddy has the PS1400 and I always thought it could do with a beefier amp section.

Mike Ronesia
12-23-2009, 12:12 PM
I get to use mine all the time. I'm using them with L8400 subs that seem to do the trick for me. I've not heard them with other subs so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing but we feel the 84's just fine and I had to put pads on all the kitchen cabinet doors so they would quit banging during movies. If I were to upgrade anything it would be the subs but these little 12"ers are a good size for the room.:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
12-23-2009, 01:55 PM
I knew you'd show up here in short order. This thread is like a bar you haven't been in for awhile.
I like the driver alot, but I wondered about those amps. My buddy has the PS1400 and I always thought it could do with a beefier amp section.

:cheers: Belly up to the bar, boys, TiDome is buying a round!


I get to use mine all the time. I'm using them with L8400 subs that seem to do the trick for me. I've not heard them with other subs so maybe I just don't know what I'm missing but we feel the 84's just fine and I had to put pads on all the kitchen cabinet doors so they would quit banging during movies. If I were to upgrade anything it would be the subs but these little 12"ers are a good size for the room.:bouncy:

The L8400P actually sports a 600W amp. Then that amazing little bastard, the HTPS400, has a 1000W amp in it! Compared to the 400W unit in the PS1400, either 12" sub is better endowed.

Downstairs, I'm driving a pair of Fosgate THX subs with LE14H-1 drivers. The boxes are bigger and I'm pushing 600W into each. They really do perform better with the extra enclosure volume and the extra power.

rdgrimes
12-23-2009, 02:31 PM
You weenies with no PS1400 stacks do not get to call your systems "Performance Series" systems. :p

"Subs" they are not, by contemporary standards. What the PS1400 would be better called is: "the bottom end" of a PT800. The stacks are impressive for music, more like a 250ti than not, with substantial bottom end for any requirements except maybe the most demanding pipe organ recordings. Authoritative, clean and precise. But viewed as a sub, they fall pretty short. For that reason you do need to include a good sub or 2 to fill out LFE and extreme LF in music.

I'm still looking for a HTPS400 or 2, but until one shows up the L8400P is doing fine. I'm not sure what more power would do for a PS1400, since the drivers don't have that much excursion in the first place. But I think that trying to make a "sub" out of a PS1400 is a flawed idea. Better to start with a real sub in the first place and let the PS1400 do what it does best.

mikebake
12-23-2009, 02:37 PM
Yeah, I guess I don't, but a sub1500 under it defines performance, as it muscles the hell out of whatever it's fed.

rdgrimes
12-23-2009, 02:41 PM
Wasn't the Sub1500 sold as a substitute for the PS1400 in the European markets?

I still like ports for music and sealed for LFE. Maybe somewhere there's a sub than can fill both roles.

4313B
12-23-2009, 03:10 PM
Wasn't the Sub1500 sold as a substitute for the PS1400 in the European markets?Not really. The 1500SUB is a true ultra low frequency transducer designed to operate in small sealed boxes. It also happens to work well enough in vented boxes. It was originally badged as the Revel 15. Then it was badged as the JBL TiK Sub.

http://www.absolutehifi.com.au/images/Tik_Sub.jpg


I still like ports for music and sealed for LFE.Theoretically it is the other way around.

What the PS1400 would be better called is: "the bottom end" of a PT800. The stacks are impressive for music, more like a 250ti than not, with substantial bottom end for any requirements except maybe the most demanding pipe organ recordings. Authoritative, clean and precise. But viewed as a sub, they fall pretty short.Right. They are an evolution of the 250Ti concept.

Mike Ronesia
12-23-2009, 03:55 PM
You weenies with no PS1400 stacks do not get to call your systems "Performance Series" systems. :p

Not a problem out this way. I just call them JBL's and nuf said. ;)

Mike Ronesia
12-23-2009, 04:04 PM
I do think mine is better looking!

80sKid
12-24-2009, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=273593#post273593)
I still like ports for music and sealed for LFE.




Theoretically it is the other way around.

That's certainly the way I feel. I like a sealed type of cabinet's tightness for bass instruments and a vented cabinet's extension for LFE.

(Ironically, I have vented JBL Studio series towers and sealed B&W subs. It's not a pairing I plan on keeping long-term.)

jblsound
12-24-2009, 09:11 AM
BOING! Here comes the monster thread back to life. 1293 posts and 77K views is just too good to let it rot away like some stinking pachyderm.......................:D


The PS held up quite nicely, along with the sub1500's.
Also watched Angels and Demons, and was perplexed on how to tame the constant and overblown LF/VLF, without turning on lights and reacquainting myself with the AVR menu. I just shut one sub off. Perfect. Must have been the wine, took me 20 minutes to come up with that one...............................:o:

I used 500w BASH amp for my 1500s, only about a 1/4 of the VC run and the AVR's sub setting @ -db and it still kicked ass.

All in storage right now, while I trek around Ecuador. Eventually, I'll get back to Nevada and have it all sent down here.

Mike Ronesia
12-24-2009, 12:23 PM
I used 500w BASH amp for my 1500s, only about a 1/4 of the VC run and the AVR's sub setting @ -db and it still kicked ass.

All in storage right now, while I trek around Ecuador. Eventually, I'll get back to Nevada and have it all sent down here.

Then you can go from trying to keep things from getting to dried out to keeping them from molding.

Merry Christmas

jblsound
12-24-2009, 08:21 PM
Then you can go from trying to keep things from getting to dried out to keeping them from molding.

Merry Christmas

Actually, here in Cuenca, although there are 4 rivers, it can be on the dry side, at times. 8300 ft

Mike Ronesia
12-25-2009, 02:26 AM
Actually, here in Cuenca, although there are 4 rivers, it can be on the dry side, at times. 8300 ft

Dude, you're high!:applaud:

mikebake
12-25-2009, 07:46 AM
You weenies with no PS1400 stacks do not get to call your systems "Performance Series" systems. :p


Does this look weenie to you?

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=19091&stc=1&d=1159486366

rdgrimes
12-25-2009, 08:30 AM
Does this look weenie to you?


Where's your wall treatments in that concrete corner? :p

mikebake
12-25-2009, 10:35 AM
Where's your wall treatments in that concrete corner? :p
That's from about '05: now I've taped aluminum foil over the walls and it sounds much better.............................plus damps EMP.

Mr. Widget
12-25-2009, 11:16 AM
That's from about '05: now I've taped aluminum foil over the walls and it sounds much better.............................plus damps EMP.Here's a pic of Mike's brother... seems to run in the family. :D


Widget

80sKid
12-25-2009, 06:45 PM
That's from about '05: now I've taped aluminum foil over the walls and it sounds much better.............................plus damps EMP.

Sounds so inviting.

:blink:

Mike Ronesia
12-25-2009, 07:11 PM
That's from about '05: now I've taped aluminum foil over the walls and it sounds much better.............................plus damps EMP.

If anyone ever takes the foil down and starts basting you then you better start running because you're almost done!!!

Slare
01-11-2010, 07:08 AM
Ok, so I'm semi on-board now with a partial P-series setup. I have a pair of PT800's, a PC600, and a PS1400 that appears to have a bad/weak amplifier. I'd like to pick some brains here about how to work around that PS1400 amplifier issue. My goal is to get the system built-up for eventual installation, as I am in the market for a home at the moment.

Ideally, what I'd like to do is pickup another PS1400 with a bad amplifier and work around the stock plate amps altogether.

The problem I get into is the crossover setup is a bit confusing. I want to get the PS stacks setup to work as full range fronts, assuming LFE would go to a dedicated sub. From what I can tell the PS1400 plate amp is a sort of goofy amp with independently adjustable high level & LFE inputs. Then the high level out is just jumped into a 130Hz passive crossover before going to the PT800 dock outputs, with no other electronic high pass figured into the amplifier itself. Is this right?

So if I wanted to replace the PS1400 amps, I could just run my normal high level front signals into the high level inputs on the plate amp (which would drive the 1400) and then parrallel that same high level connection into the PS1400 passive high pass crossover to the docked PT800. Adjust the plate amp level to flat and bingo, I'm done.

Using the PS1400's as conventional subs would also be easy, just use the new plate amps LFE input with a 80Hz crossed LFE+Main signal and make sure the receiver is sending a 80Hz front signal to the PT800s. This setup is a bit compromised considering secondary dedicated subs, because there is no longer a purely LFE signal available. I think I could work around this by using a very low crossover setting on the dedicated sub, or by just running another set of speaker wires to the PS1400 modules to use the high lvl inputs. Neither arrangement is really ideal but it seems workable.

The third (and easiest) option is just to dump the PS1400 concept altogether and simply run with conventional subs using a LFE+Main arrangement. I would highly consider this for a pure HT setup but I really want to keep the PS1400's in the game for 2 channel music. I still think there is a great advantage to running strong full range front stacks for music. I have never really been satisfied with a sub/sat setup for 2ch music.

Do plate amp high level inputs have power limitations?

I know this is a bit of a crazy post, but if anyone else has been in the same predicament, I'd really like to learn from your decisions. I really want to keep the same setup flexibility but get out of the stock amps.

And I'd like to close the post by noting that Dome warned me I was getting into a bit of a mess. Sometimes you just can't resist complicating things.

jblsound
01-11-2010, 08:08 AM
Have you looked into having the 1400 amps repaired? Running the PT800/PS1400 in a stacked setup, using the built-in 130 htz xo will provide the best "full range" speaker.
Alternately, using other plate amps for the 1400s, or using completely different subs, with the 800s sitting on top, with the AVR's xo @ 80 htz is almost as good, depending on the musical quality of the sub. Or sending a full range signal to the plate amp speaker line inputs and using the speaker line outs to the 800.
I've done this using a pair of diy subs, using JBL SUB1500 drivers and BASH plate amps. Similar to Mike's sub1500 setup

rdgrimes
01-11-2010, 08:54 AM
From what I can tell the PS1400 plate amp is a sort of goofy amp with independently adjustable high level & LFE inputs. Then the high level out is just jumped into a 130Hz passive crossover before going to the PT800 dock outputs, with no other electronic high pass figured into the amplifier itself. Is this right?


Near as I can tell, ALL output to the driver is via the amp, there's no passive throughput. At least with mine, turning off or unplugging the amp results in no output either from the LFE input or the speaker input. No output at all, or so little as to be inaudible. The PT800 still functions normally when the PS1400 is off so that high-pass is passive.

The amp is the only failure I've read about with the PS1400. IMHO, the PS1400 has little use other than for stacking with PT800. As a sub it's not up to par for LFE, although I do use them for LFE along with my other sub(s). One PS1400 is almost as useless as none. :(

If you think it's heavy now, try bolting a PT800 on top and then move it.

I do think it's worth trying for a stack for the PT800s, whether it be with PS1400s or some similar DIY. Unfortunately the PS1400 is rare as can be alone, and usually stripped with no hardware and beat up too.

Mike Ronesia
01-11-2010, 12:12 PM
Here is what I did and the 8400's seem to work for my room. Easy to find and most likely cheaper. It's not the perfect answer but I think the look is close and they cover the LFE better. I also think the amp might be a little better then the 1400's amp.

http://www.underexposed.us/images/AV-013.jpg

Slare
01-11-2010, 12:40 PM
I updated my Avatar for you guys. I hope that it will make Dome chuckle as he warned me about what I was getting into.

I might consider going the semi DIY route. PE recently started carrying these guys, which I've been eyeballing to replace my current (ugly) enclosures that I have my ED 15" subs in. There are 1/2/3 cuft versions with different finishes. Maybe if they go on sale I'll buy four. I suspect the finished 3cuft boxes would sale around $150 or so.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-844

I must admit, don't have tools or the skill to finish a box. Though I can definitely assemble and add braces to a prefab. I really like the replaceable baffle to allow updating drivers and trying ported/sealed tunings.

I figure two of these, two of the 500w BASH or PE plate amps (PE has para eq), and two drivers would cost out pretty competitively vs another PS1400. Not to mention I could then offload the 1400 I have.

I know you guys love the Sub 1500's, but those are gone. What's the current equivalent? Balanced for music and LFE...

Slare
01-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Scratch all my previous babble. I hooked the PS1400 up tonight (amp is the problem) to another plate amplifier and do not feel it is worth all the struggle to fix and locate another PS1400. The plate amp I used was an Dayton 500 model providing around 250rms / 500 peak and I was getting audible distortion before clipping. I think the PS1400 could really shine with maybe a 40Hz filter, but for the money I feel there are better matches to my tastes and will deal with running LFE+main into a conventional sub or pair of subs.

However, I did listen to the PT800's paired with my current ED subs and quite like them. They and the PC600 will be staying in my family. So my mission is now to sell the PS1400 off and eventually locate two more PT800's.

rdgrimes
01-12-2010, 05:48 AM
However, I did listen to the PT800's paired with my current ED subs and quite like them. They and the PC600 will be staying in my family. So my mission is now to sell the PS1400 off and eventually locate two more PT800's.
You might find that with minor EQ, the PT800/PC600 play very nice with your 250ti as mains in a surround setup.

PM me if you want to talk about parting out the PS1400, or at least the docking hardware.

4313B
01-12-2010, 07:46 AM
Scratch all my previous babble. I hooked the PS1400 up tonight (amp is the problem) to another plate amplifier and do not feel it is worth all the struggle to fix and locate another PS1400. The plate amp I used was an Dayton 500 model providing around 250rms / 500 peak and I was getting audible distortion before clipping. I think the PS1400 could really shine with maybe a 40Hz filter, but for the money I feel there are better matches to my tastes and will deal with running LFE+main into a conventional sub or pair of subs.

However, I did listen to the PT800's paired with my current ED subs and quite like them. They and the PC600 will be staying in my family. So my mission is now to sell the PS1400 off and eventually locate two more PT800's.The PS1400 is the weakest link thanks to Marketing. Think of the Performance Series as a modern extension of the L250/250Ti but without the superlative bottom end due to the too small LE14 enclosure. The LE14H-3 is an excellent evolution of the LE14H-1. The 908Ti and 904Ti are arguably excellent evolutions of the 108H and 104H. The little Audax tweeter offers genuinely smooth high frequency response that is very easy to live with, although it lacks the sheer power and dynamics of the old 044Ti (which some prefer with a coat of aquaplas to take the "zing" out).

The LE14H-3 is a really nice driver in 3.5 to 4.0 cubic foot boxes tuned around 28 to 30 Hz (Citation 7.4, 240Ti, 250Ti). They like a nice amp with a decent current dump when necessary.

The LE14H-3 you have is particularly attractive since the terminals face down. Too bad you don't have two of them.

The LE14H-3 is easily eclipsed by a real, dedicated subwoofer transducer such as the 1500SUB, W1500H or W1500H-1.

jblsound
01-12-2010, 07:54 AM
The PS1400 is the weakest link thanks to Marketing. Think of the Performance Series as a modern extension of the L250/250Ti but without the superlative bottom end due to the too small LE14 enclosure.


Yeah, leave it to marketing to screw up the engineering/design of a system.

4313B
01-12-2010, 08:17 AM
Yeah, leave it to marketing to screw up the engineering/design of a system.I don't see how it could look "right" though built any other way than the way it was built. It all looks reasonably well scaled. Compromises...

jblsound
01-12-2010, 09:52 AM
I don't see how it could look "right" though built any other way than the way it was built. It all looks reasonably well scaled. Compromises...

There is always a compromise, somewhere. But they could have made the 1400 box deeper to provide a less of a compromise.
3 Everests set up in an amphitheatre, might be considered as no compromise.

Slare
01-14-2010, 06:41 PM
Got the replacement PT800 tweeters and grilles today - bought a set of tweeters and swapped them out as a pair. I was disappointed to see the 800/1400 grilles have no logos. So when stacked with the grilles on there is no visible logo? Seems odd to me. I guess the 600 has to carry that torch for the system? Maybe that was why Harman was nice enough to send me two PC600 grilles?

Finally got them properly hooked up, re-flatted the Denon and dialed in the subs. I've had them up on top of the L7's using the L7's eq/level settings before tonight...

I gotta tell ya, I am really liking these sats. First speakers I've had in a long time that I am happy with set completely flat. I've always preferred the 035 tweeter to this one but I'm liking this mid enough that it pushes the PT800's ahead. Enough that I am considering getting some stands for them and storing the L7's. The ED subs blend well with them, I must have some room modes getting stirred up when the L7's are making bass too. The really sound wonderful. Totally worth the drive to Chicago.

The only thing stopping me is having to rebuild the dang console again to try and fit the giant PC600 in. I just did this because of a new TV and as luck would have it I'm about an inch short in height. :banghead: If it's not one thing it's another. Well anyways here's the cousins fighting it out for survival. The camera flash is pretty flattering to the L7's lower baffle...

PS to both Mikes - those non PS1400 stack setups look quite fine to me. I'm jealous.

Now I gotta figure out what to do with that 85lb PS1400. I REALLY do not want to be lugging that thing up and down from the basement. But I think it is wearing divots into my hardwood floors...

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4986/img1421h.jpg

natelabo
01-21-2010, 04:53 PM
I've been lurking around this thread for a long time... I have:

6 - PT800
1 - PC600
2 - PS1400 w/ all hardware (1 has damaged cabinet)
1 - McIntosh MC207
1 - Marantz AV8003

I'm considering getting rid of all the system because I can't complete what I wanted. I was hoping to find another PS1400 to replace the one with the bad cabinet. Then add dual HTPS400 to compensate for ultra low end. Which everyone here knows finding either of those in excellent shape and affordable is completely impossible. If someone has a PS1400 cabinet or is parting one out I am interested. Other wise I will probably be taking offers on the system. I can say that PT800-PS1400 combo musically is absolutely awesome...


Anyone Help?? :)

Mike Ronesia
01-21-2010, 07:35 PM
I've been lurking around this thread for a long time... I have:

6 - PT800
1 - PC600
2 - PS1400 w/ all hardware (1 has damaged cabinet)
1 - McIntosh MC207
1 - Marantz AV8003

I'm considering getting rid of all the system because I can't complete what I wanted. I was hoping to find another PS1400 to replace the one with the bad cabinet. Then add dual HTPS400 to compensate for ultra low end. Which everyone here knows finding either of those in excellent shape and affordable is completely impossible. If someone has a PS1400 cabinet or is parting one out I am interested. Other wise I will probably be taking offers on the system. I can say that PT800-PS1400 combo musically is absolutely awesome...


Anyone Help?? :)

Did you PM Slare?

Mike Ronesia
01-21-2010, 07:39 PM
Got the replacement PT800 tweeters and grilles today - bought a set of tweeters and swapped them out as a pair. I was disappointed to see the 800/1400 grilles have no logos. So when stacked with the grilles on there is no visible logo? Seems odd to me. I guess the 600 has to carry that torch for the system? Maybe that was why Harman was nice enough to send me two PC600 grilles?

Finally got them properly hooked up, re-flatted the Denon and dialed in the subs. I've had them up on top of the L7's using the L7's eq/level settings before tonight...

I gotta tell ya, I am really liking these sats. First speakers I've had in a long time that I am happy with set completely flat. I've always preferred the 035 tweeter to this one but I'm liking this mid enough that it pushes the PT800's ahead. Enough that I am considering getting some stands for them and storing the L7's. The ED subs blend well with them, I must have some room modes getting stirred up when the L7's are making bass too. The really sound wonderful. Totally worth the drive to Chicago.

The only thing stopping me is having to rebuild the dang console again to try and fit the giant PC600 in. I just did this because of a new TV and as luck would have it I'm about an inch short in height. :banghead: If it's not one thing it's another. Well anyways here's the cousins fighting it out for survival. The camera flash is pretty flattering to the L7's lower baffle...

PS to both Mikes - those non PS1400 stack setups look quite fine to me. I'm jealous.

Now I gotta figure out what to do with that 85lb PS1400. I REALLY do not want to be lugging that thing up and down from the basement. But I think it is wearing divots into my hardwood floors...

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4986/img1421h.jpg

I just redesigned my cab as well. The 600 is sitting on top right now and not at the right hight so I needed to do something. I plan on doing the build in a couple of weeks when I have some vacation. I've been mulling over ideas for a long time and last weekend it finely popped into my head and now I can get it done.

Slare
01-22-2010, 01:52 AM
I've been trying to find a standalone post type mount able to support the 54" Plasma... so the Plasma will be elevated high enough above the lower console to fit the PC600 in place. Then I can get rid of the upper shelf which I know is out of place.

Circuit city used to have post mounts like I'm looking for with their displays. I thought about buying one when they were going out of business... oh well.

I may end up just making one out of 4x4s.

jblsound
01-22-2010, 03:42 AM
I've been trying to find a standalone post type mount able to support the 54" Plasma... so the Plasma will be elevated high enough above the lower console to fit the PC600 in place. Then I can get rid of the upper shelf which I know is out of place.

Circuit city used to have post mounts like I'm looking for with their displays. I thought about buying one when they were going out of business... oh well.

I may end up just making one out of 4x4s.

Why not just mount it to the wall, slightly higher. Then place the 600 on the top of the console.


JBL doesn't want to sell you Performance Series speakers.

That's b/c the series was discontinued last year.

Mike Ronesia
01-22-2010, 04:20 AM
I've been trying to find a standalone post type mount able to support the 54" Plasma... so the Plasma will be elevated high enough above the lower console to fit the PC600 in place. Then I can get rid of the upper shelf which I know is out of place.

Circuit city used to have post mounts like I'm looking for with their displays. I thought about buying one when they were going out of business... oh well.

I may end up just making one out of 4x4s.

You might want to look at a local fabricator. Some of that stuff is less then you would think. I'll need a mounting bracket for my cc and will just have it made. They can take a pole and weld a mounting plate on it for less then I would have thought.

Slare
01-22-2010, 05:40 PM
Can't wall mount at the moment as it's not my wall. Otherwise, of course that would be the easy way out.

Although part of me is always a little nervous about wall mounting. I seem to change setups or layouts fairly often. If I can get a PS setup pulled together and make the switch, I might give this a try and just make up a U base for it. Closest thing I can find to what I have in mind.

http://www.amazon.com/Techcraft-Solution-PLM50-Plasma-Mount/dp/B000HZF16Q/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1264210899&sr=8-1

Would be pretty cool to have one made up, though. Annoying part of it is that there's probably hundreds of the Circuit City things I have in mind sitting unused in people's garages...

Titanium Dome
01-22-2010, 06:22 PM
Yeah, there's probably one in my garage. Too bad I don't live in MI anymore. :o:

Slare
01-30-2010, 03:56 PM
Picked up the PS1400/PT800 stacks today from the local seller and am "rebreaking" them in right now. I am not sure the L7's are all that far behind in some areas (especially given prices), but these are so much nicer in the upper midrange. Wonderful, just wonderful.

As an added bonus it finally gave me something to compare my original PS1400 to and I've found it is actually working just fine. My normal powered sub testing methods (t-amp for high ins / ipod for LFE in) were not effective at all. The PS1400 high level inputs need well over 100 watts to create full output, and the low level LFE input is either attenuated somehow or requires a very high level signal preamp signal.

My final set of PT800's should arrive late this week. All said and done I will have assembled a 7.3 setup possibly under the forum record, but I certainly took a few gambles getting there.

I will be sad to see the L7's go.

rdgrimes
01-30-2010, 08:10 PM
Picked up the PS1400/PT800 stacks today from the local seller and am "rebreaking" them in right now. I am not sure the L7's are all that far behind in some areas (especially given prices), but these are so much nicer in the upper midrange. Wonderful, just wonderful.

As an added bonus it finally gave me something to compare my original PS1400 to and I've found it is actually working just fine. My normal powered sub testing methods (t-amp for high ins / ipod for LFE in) were not effective at all. The PS1400 high level inputs need well over 100 watts to create full output, and the low level LFE input is either attenuated somehow or requires a very high level signal preamp signal.

My final set of PT800's should arrive late this week. All said and done I will have assembled a 7.3 setup possibly under the forum record, but I certainly took a few gambles getting there.

I will be sad to see the L7's go.
I think they really shine when pushed HARD with lots of power. (About what good JBL can that not be said?) Anyway they excel with acoustic music played loud, small groups, guitar - bass and drums especially. Less so with orchestras and large bands. And they grow on you, a lot.

Slare
02-01-2010, 06:16 AM
I am still using the Carver M1.5t I bought to drive the L7's. I really thought that I could get away from that amp and go back to just using my AVR (Denon 987 110/ch) but doing some setup testing it is clear that the PS1400 high level inputs need a lot more than 100 watts to deliver full output. Only with the Carver near full tilt was there enough signal to drive the PS1400's into max output / distortion.

With the Carver, I have the PS1400 gains set flat, but clearly a lesser amp would not take full advantage of the PS1400 nor allow the PT800's to keep up. So, it makes a lot of sense that others have found much better sound using separate amplifiers putting out 200/ch or more. It is actually required to drive the speakers to their potential.

Tonight I may try a direct LFE hookup as well. Based upon my collective testing I have a suspicion that my AVR won't deliver a high enough LFE output to drive the PS1400s into clipping, either. This may explain why so many have found the PS1400 to be utterly disappointing hooked up as a conventional LFE sub.

I've also done some more extended testing and found my original PS1400 to be 100% good to go. I think I will keep it just in case my setup ever allows for a large center (projector or higher wall mount). I assume the PC600 would work just as well in "docked" configuration so long as the PS1400 can be placed almost directly underneath it?

Titanium Dome
02-01-2010, 07:18 AM
The Performance Series AVA-7 that I'm using is rated at 125W/ch. It has more than sufficient power to drive all channels of my current Performance Series 5.1 system to 100dB+ with no audible distortion or measurable clipping.

Admittedly, I'm only using five of the seven channels in the amp, so it's loafing. Additionally, its 125W/ch are probably more honest that the typical AVR would be. It's a rebadged Lexicon amp, which is likely either a rebadged Crown or ATI.

I do not find it to provide any less oomph than the 212W/ch supplied by the Soundcraftsmen PCR800 amps I used in the original iteration. The PCR800s had to fill a space of about 3,000 cu. ft (room volume) while the AVA-7 is filling over 9,000 cu. ft., triple the room volume.

Curiously, I've also discovered the PS1400 to function better in the larger space.

Titanium Dome
02-01-2010, 07:23 AM
I think I will keep it just in case my setup ever allows for a large center (projector or higher wall mount). I assume the PC600 would work just as well in "docked" configuration so long as the PS1400 can be placed almost directly underneath it?

Before I installed the Synthesis® system, I had a PC600 sitting on a PS1400 in my downstairs HT, just below the screen. I put insulating rubber pads between the two and ran the PC600 direct to the amp while the PS1400 was fed line level.

The PS1400 was one of four subs in that setup, which were placed at the midpoints of the four walls as in the Harman International white paper on multisubs. This is described earlier in this thread, but who has the time to look it up?

Slare
02-01-2010, 08:23 AM
The Denon I have is a AVR-987 rated at 110w/ch. From what I know it is an honest rating though the headroom isn't in the same league as a separate.

The Carver is 350w/ch with headroom for 600w peaks.

For my testing, I had just the PS1400's hooked up (no docked PT800's), turned the gain all the way up on the PS1400, and then turned up the Carver (using the Denon as a pre) until the PS1400's started to produce audible distortion with bass-heavy music. This didn't happen until the Carver was running at near full tilt, occasionally hitting the clip lights - and that was with the PS1400 gain all the way up (+5db or whatever).

The PS1400's sound balanced at zero gain with docked PT800's. So with a 100 watt amp input, the PS1400's are leaving something on the table. Now in reality, I would never listen to the system that loud unless it was in a much larger room. I'm just pointing out that there is untapped overhead in the PS1400 using a 100w high level input. Whether you need it is a different discussion, but to me it clearly explains why using a 200w amp allows for more dynamic sound, as you are only at that point fully opening up the PS1400's amplifier.

I suppose there are probably proper specs in the tech manual?

Titanium Dome
02-03-2010, 07:23 AM
For the record, the Performance Series brochure:

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/ProductInformation/JBL%20Performance%20Brochure.pdf

I don't think I've linked this before.

Mr. Widget
02-03-2010, 07:46 AM
For the record, the Performance Series brochure:

http://www.jbl.com/resources/Brands/jbl/Products/ProductRelatedDocuments/en-US/ProductInformation/JBL%20Performance%20Brochure.pdf
Yesterday I checked with JBL and both the PT800s and the PS1400s are still available from JBL, though only while current supplies last. The woofers have been available through dealers at special close out prices... I have not heard anything about the pricing of the PT800s.

I also complained about the dreadful JBL.com website and was told that it is being revamped... don't know how long that will take. Maybe they need to hire some grateful people to work for minimum wage... sorry wrong thread.:banghead:

I don't think the Performance Series was ever properly marketed and has long languished because of that and probably not helped by the price/performance/apparent value equation... i.e. it looks cheaper than it's retail price and it's performance level.


Widget

Slare
02-03-2010, 08:24 AM
When I was looking I did eventually get one dealer to quote PS1400's as being available at $18xx. There was no mention of closeout pricing. I has expressed interest in buying several PT800's with a pair of PS1400's if they were available at some discounted price.

I will admit that I would likely have better luck visiting a Synthesis dealer in person and haggling from there. But high end product or not I don't think it should be so painful to get pricing information, especially on an end of life product in this environment.

And as good as the PS1400 may be you'd have to be nutty to pay that much for one. Quoting $1800 for one is almost comical, imho.

rdgrimes
02-03-2010, 08:34 AM
When HarmanAudio had the PS1400 available on their web site, the refurb units were around $1200 as I recall. A "closeout" price should be lower you'd think. I still kick myself for not grabbing some PS gear when Tweeters had all sorts of floor stock available in different stores.

Slare
02-03-2010, 08:55 AM
Well, my last two PT800's should arrive tomorrow so I am out of the market unless another eBay gamble pops up. Barring any UPS soccer damages, I will have then completed my 7.3 setup. Possibly in record time, and for right around $2.5k. But that includes the benefit of the epic risky eBay gamble, and little to no warranty to fall back on. Once I finish moving the L7/L1/EC35's I should be be well under $2k out of pocket, which was my original goal for a 5.2 kit.

I must admit that I am still nervous about the amps... and the replacement PT800/PS1400 grilles Harmon sent me are missing the little gold logos (wtf!). But I suppose I can live with that for some 80% off. :D

I have smiled every time I walk into my living room now and see the glowing PS1400 LED's enticing me. How long will that last?

rdgrimes
02-03-2010, 09:08 AM
I have smiled every time I walk into my living room now and see the glowing PS1400 LED's enticing me. How long will that last?
That little joy never goes away. Little snake eyes glowing at you. I have spare LEDs for those, BTW.

The grill logos are sold separately, but you'll want to call to order them and be sure you're getting the grill logo and not the one that covers the docking connectors.

Slare
02-03-2010, 10:06 AM
Do you know the PN for the gold box black letter badge?

Harman tried correcting it but they've shipped the JBL terminal cover and also the "JBL" letters only logo that gets pressed into the actual PS1400.

The tech documents show no number for the actual grille gold box logo, and the service tech I have can't seem to figure it out. The tech sheets show only a PN for the complete grille assembly. My new PC600 grille had the badge, but the PS1400/PT800 grilles did not. Odd. If there is a PN I'll just call and order a few.

Are there any opinions out there about whether it is better to leave the PS1400 amps on all the time or switch them? I won't be using the auto mode, but I do have a couple "smartstrips" that I can use to power them up with my receiver. I really don't like the idea of leaving them on all the time but if it is better for them I will do it. Seems like the power on relay is a somewhat common failure point for plate amps...

rdgrimes
02-03-2010, 10:49 AM
Do you know the PN for the gold box black letter badge?

No idea, but they used to sell them. Maybe His Infinite Domeness knows what might be a passable substitute.


Are there any opinions out there about whether it is better to leave the PS1400 amps on all the time or switch them? I won't be using the auto mode, but I do have a couple "smartstrips" that I can use to power them up with my receiver. I really don't like the idea of leaving them on all the time but if it is better for them I will do it. Seems like the power on relay is a somewhat common failure point for plate amps...
Leave them on. They stay warm and you avoid thermal cycles that can induce wear. I think it's about 15W per unit at idle. The auto-on is useless BTW, since it's triggered only by LFE.

Mr. Widget
02-03-2010, 04:36 PM
When I was looking I did eventually get one dealer to quote PS1400's as being available at $18xx. There was no mention of closeout pricing. They became available at a discounted price to dealers last Thanksgiving. There is no new "list price", but a dealer who would like to make a sale would surely pass along some or perhaps all of their savings. If the first dealer you contact won't work with you I guess you should try another. TiDome seems to have figured it out. ;)


Widget

Titanium Dome
02-04-2010, 10:19 PM
If the first dealer you contact won't work with you I guess you should try another. TiDome seems to have figured it out. ;)


Widget

Yes, it's right in front of everyone's face.

Slare
02-05-2010, 05:57 AM
My final two PT800 arrived last night. UPS managed to bang one around enough that a little wood brace broke loose in the upper mid chamber and was making a disconcerting loose rattle. Popped the mid out to find this little lincoln log sized brace with glue all over it. Not a big deal, easier to fix than complain about. So I now have a full 7.3 setup and am no longer shopping, all acquired outside of JBL.

I was also able to find a suitable pedestal stand for my Plasma (at Target of all places) that allows it to float high enough above my console to use the PC600. Quite a daunting task getting a 54" plasma up on that mount by myself. But it is done, and I can finally relax and enjoy the fruits of this mission.

Somewhat maddening, is that the new PT800 grilles have a different matte finish gold JBL logo on them. So I now have three different grille vintages. Glossy gold badges, no badges, and matte gold badges. I never would have guessed this would be the last hassle in the ordeal, but the grilles look a little too plain without any badge at all on the grille. So I gotta figure something out. If anyone cares I will try to take some pics of them. Would love to know a PN for the matte ones, they are actually really nice looking.

Mike Ronesia
02-05-2010, 12:57 PM
Sounds nice. Lets see some pictures and maybe just let'm play naked!

rdgrimes
02-05-2010, 01:45 PM
Mine have to keep their clothes on, or I stare at them too much and miss the movies. :o:

rdgrimes
02-05-2010, 01:57 PM
Somewhat maddening, is that the new PT800 grilles have a different matte finish gold JBL logo on them. So I now have three different grille vintages. Glossy gold badges, no badges, and matte gold badges. I never would have guessed this would be the last hassle in the ordeal, but the grilles look a little too plain without any badge at all on the grille. So I gotta figure something out. If anyone cares I will try to take some pics of them. Would love to know a PN for the matte ones, they are actually really nice looking.
Interesting. My PS units all have the glossy gold badges, and came from 3 different sources at different times.

I have to think that the gold badges are common in the different JBL lines and you should easily track some down. Have you tried calling and just asking for gold badges?

Slare
02-05-2010, 06:39 PM
Here's a Friday dose of new owner P-series porn (note the three grille variants and a first-ever showing of my subs that still need proper cabs):

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5172/img1437m.jpg
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7525/img1438i.jpg
http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/6466/img1441m.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/1297/img1455n.jpg
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6017/img1461sn.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7167/img1462k.jpg

rdgrimes
02-05-2010, 07:43 PM
Here's a Friday dose of new owner P-series porn (note the three grille variants and a first-ever showing of my subs that still need proper cabs):
You'll wanna use copper for the docking connects, the provided straps tend to get corroded. T.D. hides the copper wire behind the docking strap. I got rid of the docking straps completely.

That TV mount worked out nice for the PC600. I hope the TV isn't too high for proper viewing from the couch.

Mike Ronesia
02-05-2010, 08:56 PM
Nice, I've got all gold ones but I only have 5 and no 1400's.

I did just redo my wall because the last unit was built around other speakers. I'll post some pics when the camera is done recharging.

Mike Ronesia
02-05-2010, 10:57 PM
Ok, here are some pics of the new wall. I'll start with the old wall. It was built around my old Studio L's and my WAF. It was OK but I was never very happy with it. I acquired my Performance series speakers (Thanks Doug ;)) and some new components and then it was all wrong. I spent months trying to come up with an idea on how to redo it and finely got inspired and doodled the second pic on Photoshop.

I was on vacation last week so got the stuff and set to seeing what kind of mess I could get myself into. I designed it around my Emotiva gear and a 6ru height on each side. The center area is for the line conditioner, battery backup and my wifi/router.

I still have a Pre-Pro coming that will allow me to remove the Denon and put the BD player down below so it's not quit done but will do for now. It came out closer to my idea then I thought it would.

The PC600 is on two brackets that allows it to float above the turntable and keeps if even with the PT800's in the front. I think I can lower the TV another 4"-6" and need to cover the wires going to it but enough for now.

If you guys think reflections will be an issue I can pull the front 3 forward a few inches but the PC600 is heavy and I'll need stronger brackets to do it so
...:scold::scold::scold:

http://www.underexposed.us/images/JBL_s-010.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/the-walla.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/P1070600a.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/P1070603a.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/P1070604.jpg

rdgrimes
02-06-2010, 06:19 AM
Ok, here are some pics of the new wall. I'll start with the old wall. It was built around my old Studio L's and my WAF. It was OK but I was never very happy with it. I acquired my Performance series speakers (Thanks Doug ;)) and some new components and then it was all wrong. I spent months trying to come up with an idea on how to redo it and finely got inspired and doodled the second pic on Photoshop.

I was on vacation last week so got the stuff and set to seeing what kind of mess I could get myself into. I designed it around my Emotiva gear and a 6ru height on each side. The center area is for the line conditioner, battery backup and my wifi/router.

I still have a Pre-Pro coming that will allow me to remove the Denon and put the BD player down below so it's not quit done but will do for now. It came out closer to my idea then I thought it would.

The PC600 is on two brackets that allows it to float above the turntable and keeps if even with the PT800's in the front. I think I can lower the TV another 4"-6" and need to cover the wires going to it but enough for now.

If you guys think reflections will be an issue I can pull the front 3 forward a few inches but the PC600 is heavy and I'll need stronger brackets to do it so
...:scold::scold::scold:


Looks great! Only thing that bothers me is the height of the TV. And this is my own preference, but I'd lose or move the turntable and place the PC600 on the stand with the TV immediately above it. This will anchor the audio closer to the screen where it should be. If you can't part with the turntable, it could go anywhere or even on a shelf to the side.

Slare
02-06-2010, 08:08 AM
Mike, only thing I would do in that nice of an install is get some plastic track to hide the set wires and paint it wall color.

Set height is a totally subjective thing and some folks just like it up high. I prefer the center of the set to be about head level, which my current setup is reasonably close to. When the bottom of the set is above head level - I don't know how people put up with that. I assume they must have some sort of recliner or maybe sit pretty far away. Fewer problems with glare when the set is low, too.

The ikea console I have is actually too low, but is the the best fit I could find. I am pleased with the combo of it and the pedastal stand and may eventually build some sort of front black out panel to hide the pedastal base, though more likely it will get abandoned for a nicer unit when I can wall mount the set.

Mike Ronesia
02-06-2010, 12:32 PM
From where I sit I can lower the tv and still have it clear the PC600. It is lower then it was before and does not bother me at all. The top of the PC600 is level with the seating and below head level when not reclined. I wouldn't want it any lower the that, I have too many chins to look that low for extended periods. I'll give it a few days until I get the track for the wires and then drop it 4" or so. Right now my back is a little sore. :p

Slare
02-12-2010, 07:00 PM
For this evening's magic trick - I am going to make every single PS1400/PT800 stack owner look at the binding posts of their speakers.

How, you ask?

Well, I picked up a new AVR today and was running Audyssey to see how it worked with the new P series setup. It pointed to a phase error on the right speaker, which I found quite odd. After checking just about everything else, I noticed that the binding posts on my right PS1400 were backwards.

I removed to amp to get access, color coding of the wiring matched the binding posts, but the mounting plate itself was rotated 180 degrees. I had never even checked this as the decking arrangement essentially error proofs this. But sure enough, it was backwards, meaning the decked PT800 was in fact out of phase. Text is supposed to be to the back of the PS1400... pick below shows the backwards original installation.

This is the 2nd time I've found such an issue, first time was on a brand new Boston Acoustics VRC center channel that came wired backwards from the factory.

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9435/img1465n.th.jpg (http://img193.imageshack.us/i/img1465n.jpg/)

rdgrimes
02-12-2010, 08:33 PM
For this evening's magic trick - I am going to make every single PS1400/PT800 stack owner look at the binding posts of their speakers.


You could be right, and yours does appear to be bassackwards. FWIW, I get phase errors on my Yamaha processor all the time and then run it again and get none. Those setup routines are not checking electrical phase, but acoustic, so they get fooled a lot. Checked my stacks and they look correct.
Someone must have reversed the posts on yours, cause the plate cannot be turned.

Slare
02-13-2010, 06:44 AM
The binding posts mount to a MDF plate held to the cab with four self tapping screws. Was an easy matter (after removing the amp, of course) to just rotate the plate 180 and order was restored.

It wasn't obvious to me as the PS1400 was still in phase, but having the PT800 out of phase had to have had some pretty noticeable impact on fine imaging and soundstage.

The fella I bought these stacks from was upgrading to Swans. I have to think this little swap up is going to make those seem much, much better in the imaging department.

rdgrimes
02-13-2010, 10:14 AM
The binding posts mount to a MDF plate held to the cab with four self tapping screws. Was an easy matter (after removing the amp, of course) to just rotate the plate 180 and order was restored.


The logical assumption might be that the amp was replaced at some point and the terminals swapped. Hard to fathom something like that getting past MFG QC. :blink:

Mike Ronesia
02-13-2010, 12:27 PM
The logical assumption might be that the amp was replaced at some point and the terminals swapped. Hard to fathom something like that getting past MFG QC. :blink:

That would be my guess.

Slare
02-13-2010, 03:14 PM
I get phase errors on my Yamaha processor all the time and then run it again and get none. Those setup routines are not checking electrical phase, but acoustic, so they get fooled a lot.

This is the 2nd receiver I've had with the MultiEQ XT and it has been right identifying this and a previous Boston Center as having assembly issues - despite my stubborn denial both times. So if it is consistently happening I think it is worth checking with other methods or tear into the speaker in question.

Out of laziness I used the THX tool to check first, not wanting to pull the PS1400 out (not to mention apart).

Titanium Dome
02-13-2010, 07:25 PM
The logical assumption might be that the amp was replaced at some point and the terminals swapped. Hard to fathom something like that getting past MFG QC. :blink:


That would be my guess.

One would think so, but I had this same experience with a PS1400 that was NIB. It was as plain as day; the thing had been put in backwards. :spchless:

I thought it was a one-off mix up, but I see that it happened at least twice now. Who knows how many others there might be? :dont-know

gferrell
02-13-2010, 07:38 PM
I HATE TO IMPLICATE THIS BUT CHEEP LABOR AND OUTSOURCING IS TAKING A TOLL!

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaai

Slare
02-15-2010, 12:29 PM
I think this plate mixup could be somewhat common because if you think about it - being able to read the text facing the front (woofer side) of the enclosure is actually the reversed/wrong install position. So I can very easily see how anytime a new guy was assigned to build these things, that mixup could happen.

I mean, I know TDome has about 50% of the PS1400's in the States, but it still seems odd to have two of us find the issue.

How many were built? Couple thousand, if that? Can't be that many.

hjames
02-15-2010, 01:26 PM
I HATE TO IMPLICATE THIS BUT CHEEP LABOR AND OUTSOURCING IS TAKING A TOLL!

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaai

Really?? They are built where?

80sKid
02-19-2010, 06:01 AM
Unbelievably, a PC600 just sold on ebay for less than $350.

I didn't see it until the last minute. But I wasn't that bummed, because my A/V cabinet can't accommodate that width.

(I'm actually thinking that I will work towards having three PT800s across the front, because my cabinet can fit one of those as a center speaker.)

There are also two pairs of PT800s on ebay right now. Starting bid price is 900. (Unfortunately, I don't personally have the money for even one pair right now.)

jblsound
02-19-2010, 06:48 AM
Unbelievably, a PC600 just sold on ebay for less than $350.

I didn't see it until the last minute. But I wasn't that bummed, because my A/V cabinet can't accommodate that width.

(I'm actually thinking that I will work towards having three PT800s across the front, because my cabinet can fit one of those as a center speaker.)

There are also two pairs of PT800s on ebay right now. Starting bid price is 900. (Unfortunately, I don't personally have the money for even one pair right now.)

Certainly not a bad way to go. I used 5 PT800s, all round, before I moved. And will be doing it again in about 5 months when I get all my gear shipped to Ecuador.

Slare
02-24-2010, 07:24 AM
Sometimes I just don't understand eBay. Two PC600's sold in the past few days, one at $380 and one at $760. Both auctions ended at non-ideal times. I'm not complaining (guess who got the $380 one) but really, how the heck does this happen? I just don't understand how the end results can vary so wildly.

Not that anyone is terribly interested but I have placed a WTB in marketplace (kinda low at $800) standing offer for two final PT800's in black. If anyone has extras just taking up space, let's talk.

Mike Ronesia
02-24-2010, 12:08 PM
Sometimes I just don't understand eBay. Two PC600's sold in the past few days, one at $380 and one at $760. Both auctions ended at non-ideal times. I'm not complaining (guess who got the $380 one) but really, how the heck does this happen? I just don't understand how the end results can vary so wildly.

Not that anyone is terribly interested but I have placed a WTB in marketplace (kinda low at $800) standing offer for two final PT800's in black. If anyone has extras just taking up space, let's talk.

I find it crazy as well. Nice catch for you though. :applaud:

Slare
03-23-2010, 09:46 PM
I noticed another thing the other night replacing a dimpled tweeter on another (final) P-series acquisition... I now count three different tweeter PN's and also noticed the cast tweeter waveguides on my various PT800's have two different finishes.

Best I can tell the older units have a smoother, glossier finish, while the newer units have a more matte/powder coat type finish. The color is quite similar but they are definitely different finishes.

JBL still hasn't been able to find the grille badges, which as a reminder I've also seen three different configurations of (no badge, glossy, matte).

I find these inconsistencies somewhat maddening. I mean I understand manufacturing updates but come on - two different finishes? Who the hell approves that?

Mike Ronesia
03-24-2010, 12:11 AM
I know that when things are manufactured of the course of yours things change. The nice coating on the early ones might be an EPA no, no now.

Titanium Dome
07-16-2010, 08:23 PM
I've been enjoying my Performance Series in its current 5.2 multichannel music configuration for about a year now, but there have been some challenges.

1) The PS1400 amps have been systematically failing over time.
2) I haven't had enough HTPS400 units to really experiment with four subs set up by the Harman Multisubs white paper's recommendations.
3) I still have four PT800s NIB, so I could create a 7.1 space if I were so inclined.

As of today, all of my PS1400 amps have been factory rebuilt with improved components and increased power and durability, and I also as of today have four HTPS400 subs to place in the recommended positions. And I opened two of the PT800 boxes...

This weekend will be busy. Stay tuned. :D

grumpy
07-16-2010, 08:28 PM
:applaud:

Titanium Dome
07-16-2010, 08:33 PM
:applaud:

Yes, the BassQ/no BassQ quest lives on. :drive:

Mike Ronesia
07-17-2010, 03:36 PM
I've been enjoying my Performance Series in its current 5.2 multichannel music configuration for about a year now, but there have been some challenges.

1) The PS1400 amps have been systematically failing over time.
2) I haven't had enough HTPS400 units to really experiment with four subs set up by the Harman Multisubs white paper's recommendations.
3) I still have four PT800s NIB, so I could create a 7.1 space if I were so inclined.

As of today, all of my PS1400 amps have been factory rebuilt with improved components and increased power and durability, and I also as of today have four HTPS400 subs to place in the recommended positions. And I opened two of the PT800 boxes...

This weekend will be busy. Stay tuned. :D


I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the difference's between the 1400's and the 400's.

rdgrimes
07-17-2010, 03:40 PM
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on the difference's between the 1400's and the 400's.
There's really no comparison. The 1400 functions as a very good "mid-bass module" where the 400 is a serious sub. They work very well together. I wouldn't hesitate to run 4 of each in a decent sized room.

When I listen to 2-ch organ CDs I usually set the stacks on a 40Hz XO and let the 400 handle the bottom. Of course the PS1400 is also receiving the <40Hz through their sub inputs, but the 400 lets me know it's there.

Titanium Dome
07-18-2010, 04:44 PM
One thing's for sure, the more you add the more work there is to balance it all. Let's see here:

four 14"
four 12"
four 8"
two 6"
five 4"
five 1"

That's 22 drivers. Since I'm using the 7.1 direct mode on my Outlaw 990, I need to go into the Oppo 981HD's menu to do some tweaking. It's a good transport, but its MCH configuration is limited. I can do some bass management through the Outlaw even in 7.1 direct if I want, but for now it's turned off

The HTPS400s have variable crossovers, but I'll need Grumpy's FuzzMeasure equipped MacBook Pro to tell me where the frequencies are.

I've still got a couple of spare Synthesis® EQs sitting around... :hmm: And of course there's some Soundcraftsmen EQ and analyzer gear.

OTOH, the power of this beefed up Performance Series system is profound. If I didn't care about dialing it in, it would be pure sex to keep it as is. Imagine 5600W of musical power from about 130Hz down to at least 25Hz. That does not count the AVA7's power to the mains, center, and surrounds. I can feel in my chest; I can feel it in my loins. :smsex:

I used a wide angle lens to get this shot of the front complement: PS1400/PT800 stack, HTPS400, PC600, HTPS400, PS1400/PT800 stack. The image is slightly round due to the lens distortion. The bright morning sun washes it out a bit, but you can see everything up front, except for the equipment stack to the right.

Poor Buddha's going to go deaf. ;)

rdgrimes
07-18-2010, 05:37 PM
That's 22 drivers. Since I'm using the 7.1 direct mode on my Outlaw 990, I need to go into the Oppo 981HD's menu to do some tweaking. It's a good transport, but its MCH configuration is limited. I can do some bass management through the Outlaw even in 7.1 direct if I want, but for now it's turned off


You can't get real 7.1 out of the Oppo 981, only 5.1. The only thing you'll get in the back channels is a duplication of the sides. And as I recall, only on certain sources. You need a 7.1 AVR to create any sort of "real" 7.1.

Titanium Dome
07-18-2010, 08:26 PM
You can't get real 7.1 out of the Oppo 981, only 5.1. The only thing you'll get in the back channels is a duplication of the sides. And as I recall, only on certain sources. You need a 7.1 AVR to create any sort of "real" 7.1.

Well, since I'm only using 5.1 channels out of the 7.1 direct, then I'm in the zone. :rotfl:


(I know, I think I'm funnier than I am.)

Don C
08-02-2010, 08:26 AM
One day I'm on this forum bragging about what fine speakers I have, the very next day I'm cussing as smoke pours from my woofer cabinets. PS1400 amps =:bash:

4313B
08-02-2010, 08:43 AM
One day I'm on this forum bragging about what fine speakers I have, the very next day I'm cussing as smoke pours from my woofer cabinets. PS1400 amps =:bash:Bloody Hell! :banghead:

I really hate self-powered subwoofers... :barf: Starting with the B212...

Titanium Dome
08-02-2010, 09:30 AM
:(
One day I'm on this forum bragging about what fine speakers I have, the very next day I'm cussing as smoke pours from my woofer cabinets. PS1400 amps =:bash:

I had something blow in one of mine. It took out the whole amp but fortunately did not burn. Still it was unsettling to have it physically pop.

Whatever it was, it turns out it was a "known issue." Call JBL. Maybe you can get it fixed, though with everybody terminated, I don't know where you'd find someone who could do it. I literally picked mine up at Northridge the Friday before the Monday everyone got the axe. :o: :(

Lacking that, I was just going to seal the back of the enclosure and drive it with external power.

rdgrimes
08-02-2010, 02:48 PM
I guess I must be lucky. My 2 PS1400 have been running 24/7 for a couple years now. Maybe they're a later revision. I think I'd have the amp repaired rather than look for a replacement. I'd sure hate to give up the 130Hz high-pass and bi-amp feature that these offer, but you could certainly use a different plate amp too and add your own high/low-pass filters for the PT800s.

I had pretty good luck getting my HTPS400 repaired at http://www.jbl-speaker.com/entrance.asp Slow but fair and it was done right.

Titanium Dome
08-02-2010, 03:22 PM
I guess I must be lucky.

I had pretty good luck getting my HTPS400 repaired at http://www.jbl-speaker.com/entrance.asp Slow but fair and it was done right.

:homer: "Lucky so far, boy."

I do appreciate the link, though.

Don C
08-02-2010, 03:30 PM
I've decided to make passive subwoofers using the cabinets. The woofer itself was not harmed by the amp failure. I've already pulled out the bad amplifier, and I'll use the back plate as a template to drill a piece of wood to close up the back of the box. It looks like taking the amp out will increase the internal volume from roughly 2.0 to 2.5 cu ft. It will still be too small, but at least its getting better. I'll need to retune the box, and I'm looking for help figuring out what is needed to keep the same port frequency with the higher box volume. I'm going to get more detailed dimensions, hopefully later tonight.

Titanium Dome
08-02-2010, 03:32 PM
I've decided to make passive subwoofers using the cabinets. The woofer itself was not harmed by the amp failure. I've already pulled out the bad amplifier, and I'll use the back plate as a template to drill a piece of wood to close up the back of the box. It looks like taking the amp out will increase the internal volume from roughly 2.0 to 2.5 cu ft. It will still be too small, but at least its getting better. I'll need to retune the box, and I'm looking for help figuring out what is needed to keep the same port frequency with the higher box volume. I'm going to get more detailed dimensions, hopefully later tonight.

I'll be curious to see what suggestions you get. I think you're probably making a long term decision that all powered sub users face eventually

rdgrimes
08-06-2010, 08:58 AM
Some PS nut should snap this up:
http://cgi.ebay.com/jbl-speaker-s4hc-/250678126170?pt=Speakers_Subwoofers

No affiliation.

Titanium Dome
08-06-2010, 02:50 PM
Some PS nut should snap this up:

Who you calling a nut?:blink::nutz:

Don C
08-07-2010, 12:27 PM
Now I've figured the volumes more carefully and put the data into Winisd. I had the volumes wrong in my previous post. The amplifier module displaces .164 cu ft. Roughly. It doesn't make a lot of difference to the box tuning. The ports are 2X 2.5 inches by 12 inches length for both plots.

46943.

Slare
08-09-2010, 01:38 PM
I'd sure hate to give up the 130Hz high-pass and bi-amp feature that these offer, but you could certainly use a different plate amp too and add your own high/low-pass filters for the PT800s.

Man, I hate reading these discussions because it makes nervous given I have four well-used PS1400's in service and one "spare".

I will say, that the 130Hz HP crossover is just a conventional passive unit that is contained in the PS1400 enclosure... it is not an electrical crossover in the PS1400 amp, which is what I was most nervous about trying to replicate.

So my thought has always been that if the PS1400 amplifiers start to fail, I would hopefully be able to find a slightly more compact amplifier which I could mount to an adapter plate that also had room for a set of binding posts to wire up to the crossover and thus up into the docked PT800 for minimal modification to the factory hardware.

I hope that it is not something I will have to deal with anytime soon... but one must be realistic in that these amps do have some level of fixed service life. I just hope mine are on the right end of the curve or die to some home owners insurable incident.

tom1040
08-09-2010, 03:57 PM
Forgive me. I have a stupid question. Since I am unfamilar with the performance series...could someone take the plate amp from a L8400 to replace the defective ones in the performance series? I think the l8400 is 600 vs. 400 watts. Just 'throwing' that one out there.

rdgrimes
08-09-2010, 04:24 PM
Forgive me. I have a stupid question. Since I am unfamilar with the performance series...could someone take the plate amp from a L8400 to replace the defective ones in the performance series? I think the l8400 is 600 vs. 400 watts. Just 'throwing' that one out there.
400W is ample power for the driver and enclosure. I doubt the L8400 amp would fit anyway.
There's loads of available plate amps around.

Titanium Dome
08-09-2010, 04:59 PM
Forgive me. I have a stupid question. Since I am unfamilar with the performance series...could someone take the plate amp from a L8400 to replace the defective ones in the performance series? I think the l8400 is 600 vs. 400 watts. Just 'throwing' that one out there.


400W is ample power for the driver and enclosure. I doubt the L8400 amp would fit anyway.
There's loads of available plate amps around.

The PS1400 amp is unusually long and narrow. It has to fit between two bracing ribs inside the PS1400 enclosure. Any amp that is much wider than the stock unit simply will not fit unless someone FUBARs the enclosure by cutting out the braces.

Since all four of my PS1400 amps had to be rebuilt, I considered all the options and went with fixing the amps as the best option. Unfortunately, the gent who did the work got slashed in the Northridge Massacre, so I don't know how I'll handle it if they die again.

Likely it'll be to seal the enclosure and use external power, or sell them to one of you guys "as is." ;)

Slare
08-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Dome, any chance you could ask him about the subsonic and high pass rolloff behavior of the PS1400 amplifier?

The PT800 crossover is cake as it's a passive... but to get a 100% match to original behavior using an external amp you'd need to duplicate the PS1400 amp low pass crossover behavior and possible subsonic filter behavior. I know a bunch of different plate amps out there have much different characteristics without really flat response.

One get get pretty similar results with just about any decent plate amp or outboard amplifier. But if I ever do this I'd want to know exactly what was needed out of the sub amp to duplicate the OEM behavior. It'd be a good thing to try and archive it while the info is still somewhat fresh.

Titanium Dome
08-09-2010, 06:37 PM
He's not in a real good mood right now. I'll see what I can glean, although someone smarter than me can read the tech materials and figure it out. We know lots about the driver.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?11317-LE14H-3

Titanium Dome
08-09-2010, 06:45 PM
And we know what happens when the signal first goes in.

Robh3606
08-09-2010, 06:47 PM
Well if you can you might want to consider a larger box and just salvage the docking mechanics. Those boxes are too small to get the most lowend out of an LE-14H-3 as it is. If the amps do die you can always repower them in a larger box. If you are running with a good front end you should have enough bass management control to make things work or use the passive in the post above.

Rob:)

rdgrimes
08-09-2010, 08:35 PM
Well if you can you might want to consider a larger box and just salvage the docking mechanics. Those boxes are too small to get the most lowend out of an LE-14H-3 as it is. If the amps do die you can always repower them in a larger box. If you are running with a good front end you should have enough bass management control to make things work or use the passive in the post above.

Rob:)
Like docking the PT800 to the bottom end of an Array 1400? Please do, sounds like a fine idea if not too tall.

I really doubt that having the OEM PS1400 amps repaired is such a big deal, and any competent shop should be able to do it. Hope I never have to find out, but I'll bet it's cheaper than the alternatives.

Titanium Dome
08-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Like docking the PT800 to the bottom end of an Array 1400? Please do, sounds like a fine idea if not too tall.

I really doubt that having the OEM PS1400 amps repaired is such a big deal, and any competent shop should be able to do it. Hope I never have to find out, but I'll bet it's cheaper than the alternatives.

How much are you willing to bet?

rdgrimes
08-10-2010, 06:14 AM
How much are you willing to bet?
Obviously it depends on the parts needed. Repairing my HTPS400 amp was less than the shipping.

mirageom9
08-10-2010, 01:35 PM
what are some thoughts on using just the pt800s for 2 chanel audio

rdgrimes
08-10-2010, 01:41 PM
what are some thoughts on using just the pt800s for 2 channel audio
Why not? Of course they can only be used above 80Hz so you need a sub. I'm certain everyone here uses them for 2-ch all the time.

Titanium Dome
08-10-2010, 08:39 PM
I have two PT800s connected to an L8400P, and they did a better job of stereo reproduction than my XPL200s, until I got the DX-1 from Greg Timbers with the custom built cards and did active bi-amping with them. Two PT800s with a sub, or better yet a pair of subs, is a very good combination.

Stacked as a full range unit (PT800/PS1400) they're better than L250s and arguably better than a stock 250Ti. After all, they're already actively bi-amped with 400W to your LE14H-3 and whatever W you're sending from your amp to the PT800, plus three of the four drivers are IMO superior. One could argue that the TM025 tweeter is not a match for the 044Ti, but I will argue that a current TM025 is better than a 15 or 20 year old 044Ti, which tends to get a bit much as the damping pad dissolves and other age-related issues assert themselves. So, I just concluded that four of the four drivers are superior. :p

Plus, the LE14H-3 is a better driver than the old LE14H-1. The downside is that the 250Ti gives the LE14H-1 a better volume to play in.

Don C
08-13-2010, 03:05 PM
Here are few comments about converting the PS1400s to passive, now that I've done it. I used the terminals on top of the sub box as inputs. I cut the (Monster cable) wires off at the crossover module at the back of the unit and removed the entire amplifier module and all of its wiring. Simple enough. You need to tape or staple up the wire from the LEDs so that it doesn't rattle in the box. And reverse the phase inside the box, put the red taped wire on the black woofer terminal. It sounds awful if you hook it up red to red. I had to rotate the woofer to bring the terminals closer to the top, so the wires would reach. I disassembled the blown amplifier and used the metal back plate as a pattern to cut out two pieces of 3/4 inch oak veneer plywood. I then drilled through the same piece to make the ten screw holes to fasten the new back plates. Some semi-gloss black spray paint and the job was done. The back panel protrudes a half-inch but doesn't look bad.
The resulting passive subs are not as sensitive as the PT800 panels. Trying to get a valid comparison, I looked at the specs of the 250Ti and the Performance system, the difference is 2db. 89 db for the Ti, 91 for the PS. But it sounds more like 3db to me, so that's where I have the levels on the crossover set now. I'll probably fool around with it endlessly though. I'm using an external active crossover at 250 hz, (Mark Levinson LNC-2) and a 250 wpc power amp (Acurus A250) to drive them. I was hoping for an improvement in the bass but it doesn't seem to have made any. It's not a fair comparison though. I was previously using a monophonic subwoofer equalizer to correct the room response of the subs. (A JBL Synthesis S3-SPP) That was a huge improvement in the sound of the system, but since I don't want to run mono from 250 hz down, I had to remove it. I'll be shopping for an equalizer that works as well in stereo as the old one did in mono now. Hopefully this will result in a system that compares favorably with the old one.

Titanium Dome
08-23-2010, 12:19 PM
So a nice ebay seller from Indio drove this over rather than ship it. I gave him some gas money, but really, this was way above and beyond.

S4HC:

Titanium Dome
08-23-2010, 12:24 PM
So, as I wrote a few days ago back over on AVS:

rdgrimes
08-23-2010, 01:56 PM
So a nice ebay seller from Indio drove this over rather than ship it. I gave him some gas money, but really, this was way above and beyond.

S4HC:
I was close to taking that but he couldn't satisfy me on the packing for shipping. Glad it went to a good home. I too wanted the parts. :(

Slare
08-23-2010, 04:38 PM
So a nice ebay seller from Indio drove this over rather than ship it. I gave him some gas money, but really, this was way above and beyond.
S4HC:

Also glad to hear it went to a good home (sneaky) but jeez, don't you have enough stuffs by now?

I am more interested in knowing how someone ends up with just this speaker. Any background come up in the discussion?

Robh3606
08-23-2010, 05:51 PM
Here are few comments about converting the PS1400s to passive, now that I've done it.

I am surprised you didn't go for longer deeper cabinets to get them into bigger boxes.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
08-23-2010, 09:14 PM
Also glad to hear it went to a good home (sneaky) but jeez, don't you have enough stuffs by now?

I am more interested in knowing how someone ends up with just this speaker. Any background come up in the discussion?

Came out of a home in Palm Desert, CA, where an older purchaser just thought it was too much and wanted a simpler system. There were two HTPS400 subs in the deal, too: $500 for the pair. :eek:

Tomorrow I'll post the parts I got out. Then it might be time to start a new thread on this particular project, though it might be considered the ultimate Performance Tower when Grumpy and I get it all together...

:beach:

...if we get it all together. Ah, the lazy days of summer.

grumpy
08-24-2010, 06:48 AM
Uh... that would Doug and Annie on the beach there... :rotfl:

Slare
08-24-2010, 01:24 PM
Came out of a home in Palm Desert, CA, where an older purchaser just thought it was too much and wanted a simpler system. There were two HTPS400 subs in the deal, too: $500 for the pair. :eek:

I'm picturing a really nice house with a couple flower pots in the wall where the speaker used to be. :blink: So did you GET the two HTPS400's as well?

Sounds like you are going to undertake the PS driver version of a 250Ti?

I vote for bottom firing HTPS400 kit integrated in addition for the world's most ridiculous 5-way (or 6-way if you toss one of those silly UHF guys in the mix).

Titanium Dome
08-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Here's most of the booty.

rdgrimes
08-24-2010, 03:55 PM
Here's most of the booty.
How does the XO compare with the PC600?

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 12:37 PM
Well, let's see:

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 12:38 PM
How's that look to ya?

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 12:43 PM
Quite a few differences, which makes the acquisition of the S4HC network especially useful. Now look at the PT800 network.

Lots to ponder... :hmm:

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 12:56 PM
Three different baffle shapes, three different baffle sizes, three different cabinet volumes, three different driver layouts, and three different networks--not to mention two different driver complements. What fun! Somehow out of all this order will come chaos, or is it the other way around?

Anyway, Grumpy... :confused: :D :rotfl:

grumpy
08-25-2010, 01:25 PM
I'm good to go, contributing to this... just need some ground rules (so there's something to
break). You might want to set up a few of your own (or all of them).

With raw drivers, a potential pair of boxes, smartly designed crossovers (albeit
tuned for mostly different applications and arrangements), I'll suggest that
there at least be a visual idea and a general philosophy of how and where to use
the drivers based on both the already optimized portions of say, the PT/PC series
crossovers that make sense, and measurements (imp/FR on-axis & H-V) of all of the
drivers on a similar baffle arrangement as initially desired (which may mean tossing
out large parts of existing networks).

Your call on how open you want this to be :) Might get some LEAPsters to aid in the process
if given enough info.

Here's some cannon fodder (pretend the OS waveguide is silver):

47232

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 08:30 PM
Now if we can find someone local who can do furniture-grade cabinet work for the sheer joy of working on a one-of-a-kind project, we'll have, as we used to say, "The effin' A." :applaud:

Onward. And upward. :bouncy:

Don C
08-25-2010, 08:50 PM
A five way system? Why? Just make it four way.

grumpy
08-25-2010, 09:44 PM
Because that would be "easier" :)

in reality, that's probably the most straightforward
path to something reasonably successful.

Titanium Dome
08-25-2010, 10:07 PM
A five way system? Why? Just make it four way.

Who knows? Four-way, five-way, three-way?

Think of it as an L5 with an integrated sub. Or not.

Conventional paradigms must be spurned, yet mimicked; abandoned, yet taken refuge in; rejected, yet embraced.

Slare
08-26-2010, 01:09 PM
If you made it a 5-way with a powered Sub1500 as the fifth element... wouldn't that be truly ground breaking?

:jawdrop:

I can be all about "go big or stay home" when it's not my money.

80sKid
08-27-2010, 09:43 AM
Well, I don't think it's really possible to do the 5 way design. Because, to my knowledge, there aren't 3 metal diaphragm drivers in the Performance series; only 2. Of course you could source some from Revel (as the tweeter in the pic was), but do you really want to mix Revel and JBL drivers?

grumpy
08-27-2010, 07:37 PM
There are :)

But this whole notion took an easy turn toward the simpler today. Really nice to hear XPL200As with custom DX-1 cards as well.

80sKid
08-28-2010, 09:01 PM
Oh yes, of course. Now I remember that the PT800 has an 8" woofer and not the same 6" as the PC600. I keep thinking they are the same.

Robh3606
08-28-2010, 09:39 PM
That looks like fun! I have had similar ideas using the XPL domes like an XPL-250. I have built up 3 4 way clones over the years. From that perspective I would say keep it a 4 way. You simply don't need any more complexity than that and I am sure the driver set's can support that. To keep it simpler you may want a Bi Amp approach like the XPL-200A that way you only have to do the passive networks for the top 3 drivers only.

If you are serious keep in mind that you need to pick your driver set and then build a dimensionally accurate test cabinet first. You will not be able to do any meaningful measurements for a crossover without the drivers installed in the test cabinet.

Curious to see what you come up with. Have fun!

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
08-28-2010, 10:15 PM
Well, our test cabinets are L250s.

I'd already pulled the 108H, LE5-11, and 044-1. The 108H drivers look and test good; both LE5-11s are in difficult shape with completely mashed in dust caps; and one 044-1 is completely pushed in while the other looks and tests good. The LE14H-1 woofers are incorrectly refoamed, and the dust caps appear to have been crushed and pulled out a lot. So I have some spares for my regular L250s, but good or bad, the drivers had to come out because the Ti had to go in. That was the whole point of getting the cabinets.

Grumpy did a complete free air sweep of the replacement drivers, plus some others I was curious about. This automatically excluded two 4" Ti drivers I had, which purportedly were "better" than the 904Ti drivers, but the best we could say is they were different.

After connecting to the binding posts of the test 250 cab, we dropped the cabinet, with LE14H-1 in place but disconnected, on its back on the floor and inserted the 908Ti, 904Ti, and TM025, which I'd installed on a thick cardboard plate I'd copied from the 044-1's mounting housing. One side note was the unexpected difference in connections in the L250, so we improvised with short pigtails to hook the drivers up.

The 8" and 4" drivers fit like a glove in the stock openings, and my cardboard mounting plate was a marvel of engineering.

We set up an omnidirectional mic on a tripod with a "custom" arm so that we could position the mic over the center of each driver in turn, and Grumpy used FuzzMeasure run some sweeps and take measurements.

Titanium Dome
08-28-2010, 10:25 PM
Bear in mind the first group of measurements were of the Performance Series drivers and the stock N250, with all the buss bars at 0. Grumpy actually saved and labeled all the test sweeps.

As it turned out, there were no surprises. It sounded good but not great, and the sweeps clearly showed the N250 and Performance Series drivers were not made for each other. Curiously, we found that inverting the phase on the 904Ti actually provided the best results, but they were still far from what we wanted to see.

Robh3606
08-29-2010, 07:31 AM
Ok nice cabinet! I don't know what you already know so take this as some friendly advice. When I did my Jubilee's one thing I found was measurements of an array of drivers that tall can be a PITA. The free air measurements are good to see if they are working but you need to redo the measurements in the test enclosure to get the impedance and phase measurements for the crossovers.

When you do your driver measurements pick one reference point and keep it through out the design. Typically the tweeter at some fixed distance at least 1 meter away. It's a trade off though. For an driver array that tall 1-2 meters would probaly be better if you can get clean measurements low enough for your lowest crossover point. Make sure you pick a point you can easily repeat if you need too and document the exact dimensions of the set-up. Including measurement positions for the speaker and microphone in the room. If you can do the full measurement set in one shot without disturbing the measurement set-up. That will give you an accurate assessment of your attenuation and a good starting point for the crossover. Watch your driver phases when you do your measurements it can drive you nuts if you are not careful. If you are not sure with the tweeter use the impulse response to determine the polarity.

Measuring the individual driver in close won't work for the crossover design. You want them to sum on your primary listening axis and you want to see what the baffle effects are again so you can sum the driver properly with the crossover. When I did my Jubilees I did 2 set's of measurements one in close to each driver and the other on the tweeter axis about 1 meter away. The only measurements that would sum properly in LEAP using the Jubilee crossovers were the fixed point measurements.

Get your camera out I want to see the miracle cardboard mounting plate.

Rob:)

Titanium Dome
08-29-2010, 10:56 AM
Grumpy may want to chime in here, as it was his equipment and he's got all the files, but, momentarily ignoring Rob :D , I'll finish my observations, then get to Rob's comments. ;)

After getting readings from the Performance Series drives via the N250 and without the LE14H-1, we put some double-stick foam around the baffle openings, "sealed" the drivers in the cab, and ran the sweeps direct to the drivers with no crossover at all. In particular, we compared the 908Ti and 906Ti to each other, and the similarity of these two drivers was, to me at least, almost freakishly identical.

It certainly bears out JBL's claim that a PT800 and a PC600 are virtually interchangeable. The 906Ti had somewhat less output (3dB, Grumpy?), but of course, with two of them in a PC600 and considering the PC600's crossover, it's easy to see why the PT800 and PC600 have such comparable output.

This proved to be the most important discovery of the day, as it completely eliminated the need for additional consideration of both a 906Ti and 908Ti in this enclosure. Any anticipated benefit from having the 908Ti take the low road and the 906Ti take the high road in their respective ranges was rendered moot by their virtually identical output. The 908Ti makes more sense because, a) it perfectly fits the stock 8" cutout in the baffle, and it goes a bit lower.

Titanium Dome
08-29-2010, 11:06 AM
Next, we got a Cherry PT800 and laid it on its back on a box to get it the same distance as the drivers in the L250, about 0.9m I think. (Grumpy?) Of course, its measurements were much better, but they also helped us to see the effects of the space on the results.

The space was my garage with the garage door open, but this was all preliminary stuff, just to get a handle on drivers, enclosures, methodology, etc. In any event, we got what we needed for me to move on to the next stage and to abandon a lot of wishful thinking.

Titanium Dome
08-29-2010, 11:44 AM
Here are the decisions so far:
1. Use the stock L250 enclosure.
2. Make a 4-way: LE14H-1, 908Ti, 904Ti, and TM025 with EOS Waveguide.
3. Fabricate a mounting plate for the TM025/EOS assembly.
4. Place PT800 network in system to drive top three drivers.
5. Install bi-amp speaker connector cup
6. Use 2-way active crossover to separate LF and send direct to LE14H-1.

Testing yet to be done:
1. Obviously, measure the effect of the PT800 network on driver performance in that enclosure.
2. Determine the correct XO point and slope for LE14H-1 to 908Ti transition.
3. Remove the space-hogging N250 network (for storage), seal the opening, and measure effect.
4. Retune cab if needed.
5. EQ drivers if PT800 network is adequate.

Possible future moves:
1. Refinish cabinet (highly likely).
2. Build CC networks (someone else, not me.)
3. Use full active crossover, quad amp.
4. Get Be tweeter.
5. Put all L250 components back in and sell it.

Titanium Dome
08-29-2010, 11:54 AM
As can be gleaned from my above comments, we did a couple of in cabinet measurements with the cabinet on the floor, the net result of which was simplification of the project.

Once I do my part, we'll do some standing measurements, My part includes installing the drivers, PT800 crossover, getting the active XO set up, getting amplification, preamp, and EQ set up, and various cabinet sealing and fixing issues.

We don't have LEAP, so either you can fly to LA to help us, or we'll try to find a local. :)

Neither of us took any pictures, and right now the cab is tucked away, so I can't photo the cardboard plate. As I shared with Grumpy, there's one rule for the garage: When Annie gets home her car better fit.

grumpy
08-29-2010, 02:03 PM
I'll chime in a bit... there were quite a few questions about directions to take,
and what to measure to help get there, as well as a fairly tight schedule...
all of this (I think) allowed us to zero in on a reasonable 1st cut path that Doug
has outlined (L250 cab, PT800 drivers and crossover, biamp to LE14H-variant),
the physical spacing of the PT800 drivers and L250 holes being quite comparable...
Then measuring the PT800s as a system and noting the overall frequency
smoothness. (also noting that the L250 crossover was the 6dB variety ... measuring
with that network was toward resolving whether it was worth using/tweaking it...
seemed the answer was "no.")

Having that somewhat nailed down should make the next round/event have
more focus, and allow for a standing (vs on the floor) system that could be
aimed outside and measured at a more reasonable distance for the drivers
to integrate better. Nice that most of Rob's comments were already going
through might head in a "it would be good if we had more time to do this"
sort of way :) We were a bit limited in being shy of 1m for most measurements.

Also I understand the 908Ti might want some more breathing room... there's a
funny construction detail of there being a narrow slot behind the mid-bass doghouse
box, presumably to allow the space behind the tweeter/mid to be 'seen' as
additional volume by the LE14H-1... Seems like this would not be very effective
allowing the mid/bass doghouse to be increased in volume with out much effect
on the LE14 response... the further thought of going to a newer LE14H variant
that requires less volume could help here as well. In any case, the 1st cut with
the biamped bottom and a para-EQ available should be interesting.

So that I understand the scope of what would be required, input requirements for LEAP
are in what form (freq vs amp, phase, impedance) at some log frequency interval?
with more design options available if angular measure amp/phase measurements
are available? (or if the manual is available online?... I can just read it).

Robh3606
08-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Hello Grumpy


So that I understand the scope of what would be required, input requirements for LEAP are in what form (freq vs amp, phase, impedance) at some log frequency interval?


CLIO exports as an ASCII file that LEAP reads just fine. Woofer Tester 2 exports to an LMS format. You probaly can import your text files as they are if you want post a text file and I will see if it will load. The manuals I think are on the LEAP Site.

Rob:)

grumpy
08-30-2010, 07:01 AM
Cool/Thanks Rob! :)
If/when there are pertinent measurements taken, and with a bit more care
in the mic placement and surrounding environment, I'll send a PM. It may
be quite awhile, but meanwhile I'll go read up on the LinearX site.

rpatt
10-06-2010, 10:14 AM
I set up my Performance 5.1 system. I upgraded from the HT series. I have four PT800s, one PC600 & three HTPS400s. I had to replace all five of the tweeters in the PTs & PC as they were not the originals. They all had tweeter number 050822. I found four S26 tweeters ond one S310 tweeter on ebay. This system has exceded my expectations. Thanks to Ti Dome for this thread or I would never have heard of them. This is a picture of the front stage.

http://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/65824.jpg

rdgrimes
10-06-2010, 11:03 AM
I set up my Performance 5.1 system. I upgraded from the HT series. I have four PT800s, one PC600 & three HTPS400s. I had to replace all five of the tweeters in the PTs & PC as they were not the originals. They all had tweeter number 050822. I found four S26 tweeters ond one S310 tweeter on ebay. This system has exceded my expectations. Thanks to Ti Dome for this thread or I would never have heard of them. This is a picture of the front stage.

http://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/65824.jpg
I'm not thrilled by the reflective surface that your HTPS400 are providing right under the PT800s, but it's a nice looking setup. Moving the PT800s up a foot or moving the 400s to the side would eliminate some early reflections.

rpatt
10-06-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm not thrilled by the reflective surface that your HTPS400 are providing right under the PT800s, but it's a nice looking setup. Moving the PT800s up a foot or moving the 400s to the side would eliminate some early reflections.

I thought about that too. That's why I put the Auralex Gramma under the PC600. The front PT800s have the tweeters at ear level, what effect in sound would raising them have?

rdgrimes
10-06-2010, 11:21 AM
I thought about that too. That's why I put the Auralex Gramma under the PC600. The front PT800s have the tweeters at ear level, what effect in sound would raising them have?
I think I'd go for moving all 3 of them forward to the front edge of the HT cabinet and eliminate ALL reflections. The 400s can really go anywhere on the front wall. Even with that pad you're still getting reflections off the top of the cabinet. Even the display could be brought forward with an extending wall mount. (I have a 65" plasma hanging 30" out from the wall). I'd leave it to you to decide how to accomplish moving the PT800s forward or up. The difference in sound stage that 12" of height would make is pretty small. Moving them forward would accomplish even more. You would lose the wall reinforcement, but the PT800s don't really need it.

For grins you could temporarily set the PT800s right on the 400s at the front edge then slide the PC600 forward too and just see how it sounds. I'm betting it will clean up the mids and highs quite a bit. WAF not withstanding.

BTW, nice choice with the Oppo.

rpatt
10-06-2010, 11:40 AM
I think I'd go for moving all 3 of them forward to the front edge of the HT cabinet and eliminate ALL reflections. The 400s can really go anywhere on the front wall. Even with that pad you're still getting reflections off the top of the cabinet. Even the display could be brought forward with an extending wall mount. (I have a 65" plasma hanging 30" out from the wall). I'd leave it to you to decide how to accomplish moving the PT800s forward or up. The difference in sound stage that 12" of height would make is pretty small. Moving them forward would accomplish even more. You would lose the wall reinforcement, but the PT800s don't really need it.

For grins you could temporarily set the PT800s right on the 400s at the front edge then slide the PC600 forward too and just see how it sounds. I'm betting it will clean up the mids and highs quite a bit. WAF not withstanding.

BTW, nice choice with the Oppo.

Thanks for the advice. The room is in the basement, kind of L-Shaped (19' X 25'), and due to a load bearing column, my seating position is only 10' from the wall. I'll think it over and do some experimenting. I'm really happy with the new Oppo. Wall mounting did rate high on the WAF-O-Meter.:D

JBLAddict
10-06-2010, 04:47 PM
I'm not thrilled by the reflective surface that your HTPS400 are providing right under the PT800s, but it's a nice looking setup. Moving the PT800s up a foot or moving the 400s to the side would eliminate some early reflections.

or just a little absorbing material on the top of subs

Titanium Dome
10-06-2010, 08:21 PM
Congratulations! Those Ti domes look nice wherever they are.

At my recent JBL demo day at my house, there were still a couple of guys who preferred the Performance Series above anything else. I have to admit, there are days I just like to relax into their familiar and greatly satisfying sound.

But of course there are other JBLs in the house that require listening, too. :)

Enjoy!!


I set up my Performance 5.1 system. I upgraded from the HT series. I have four PT800s, one PC600 & three HTPS400s. I had to replace all five of the tweeters in the PTs & PC as they were not the originals. They all had tweeter number 050822. I found four S26 tweeters ond one S310 tweeter on ebay. This system has exceded my expectations. Thanks to Ti Dome for this thread or I would never have heard of them. This is a picture of the front stage.

http://images.blu-ray.com/htgallery/65824.jpg

JBLAddict
10-06-2010, 08:55 PM
Congratulations! Those Ti domes look nice wherever they are.

At my recent JBL demo day at my house, there were still a couple of guys who preferred the Performance Series above anything else. I have to admit, there are days I just like to relax into their familiar and greatly satisfying sound.

But of course there are other JBLs in the house that require listening, too. :)

Enjoy!!

not hearing the PS in 2CH to compare to the other systems directly is my one regret. The PS series MCH experience still has me really considering that upgrade, but since the vast majority of my listening is still 2CH want to know how much more rewarding it would be than my current situatoin

Titanium Dome
10-06-2010, 09:41 PM
not hearing the PS in 2CH to compare to the other systems directly is my one regret. The PS series MCH experience still has me really considering that upgrade, but since the vast majority of my listening is still 2CH want to know how much more rewarding it would be than my current situatoin

That would have been simple enough to do--the press of a button on the remote! The ease of doing that notwithstanding, it would have been odd to try to listen to them as a stereo pair with the K2s right nearby. I've yet to do that comparison myself, and I walk past both systems every day.

Maybe the next time I impose on Grumpy to come down and do some measuring on the K2s I'll let you know and you can join in on the joy and pain if possible.

rpatt
10-07-2010, 05:55 AM
Congratulations! Those Ti domes look nice wherever they are.

At my recent JBL demo day at my house, there were still a couple of guys who preferred the Performance Series above anything else. I have to admit, there are days I just like to relax into their familiar and greatly satisfying sound.

But of course there are other JBLs in the house that require listening, too. :)

Enjoy!!

Thanks Doug. I am definitely enjoying them. And, due to your thread, I know more about these speakers than any I have ever owned.:D

JBLAddict
10-08-2010, 10:14 AM
That would have been simple enough to do--the press of a button on the remote! The ease of doing that notwithstanding, it would have been odd to try to listen to them as a stereo pair with the K2s right nearby. I've yet to do that comparison myself, and I walk past both systems every day.

Maybe the next time I impose on Grumpy to come down and do some measuring on the K2s I'll let you know and you can join in on the joy and pain if possible.

what is considered the fair market value for a pair in VG to Ex condition? and for the PS1400....the ebay sales seem to be all over the map and completed listings show nothing

Don C
10-08-2010, 11:35 AM
Based on the failure rates of the PS1400 documented recently here, I'd expect the resale value of the PS1400s to fall rapidly in the future. And broken ones will probably start showing up for parts. And probably bring the PT800s down with them. I think that I paid 1100 for the pair of mine, used. But I don't think I'd pay that now.

JBLAddict
10-08-2010, 11:44 AM
Based on the failure rates of the PS1400 documented recently here, I'd expect the resale value of the PS1400s to fall rapidly in the future. And broken ones will probably start showing up for parts. And probably bring the PT800s down with them. I think that I paid 1100 each for mine, used. But I don't think I'd pay that now.

thanks Don, you mean you paid 1100 for the PS1400, not the PT800, correct?

Don C
10-08-2010, 11:48 AM
thanks Don, you mean you paid 1100 for the PS1400, not the PT800, correct?
Correction,
I just double checked my Paypal account. I paid 1100 for the pair of PS1400s, 800 for the pair of PT800s.

Titanium Dome
10-08-2010, 07:31 PM
The most I've paid for a PS1400 is $450 and the least is $285. My average purchase price is $355. These were all NIB. With a lot of luck, I was able to get all four amps fixed/upgraded this past spring. My hope is for long years of service. With the changes at Northridge, this has become an order of difficulty harder to do.

The most I've ever paid for a PT800 is $415 and the least is $180. My average purchase price is $285. These were a combination of NIB and used. I've had one TM025 tweeter fail.

The most I've ever paid for a PC600 is $450 and the least is $250. My average purchase price is $328. One came damaged in shipping and was nearly a total loss, with the cabinet and both 906Ti drivers damaged beyond saving. The TM025 went to replace the failed driver in a PT800, and I sold the network and various bits to a forum member at a loss.

The most I've ever paid for an HTPS400 is $450 and the least is $250. My average purchase price is $380. One BASH amp failed and could not be repaired; no replacement was available.

That covers all the Performance Series gear that I consider "original" prior to the expansion of the line to an incomprehensible mish-mash of odd parts renamed from other JBL lines.

JBLAddict
10-08-2010, 08:32 PM
thanks very much for those details, that is extremely helpful guidance that I certainly will use as I start scouring the auction sites, etc. Right now I see a pair of PT800 with a starting bid of $850 which I originally thought good, but considering the most you've paid is $415 not the bargain I thought.

it's funny how may here and AVS went specifically from 90's L's to PS as I'm considering. The main reason I didn't go straight to the PS last year was the need to couple separate units to get a full range "speaker" and I wasn't keen on that....plus the L7 is just such huge bang for the buck and the fact I already had L5 gave me an instant HT to boot.

I've never sold a speaker, or any audio component, so that is prolly my biggest challenge in terms of doing a full changeover

Gioxtream
10-15-2010, 02:49 PM
Can we say that the original tweeter found in the JBL 312 is better performer that the JBL s 312II tweeter??

Another thing is....can someone recommend me a good set of tweeters for my JBL s312 ???? I am pretty supre got to be a better tweeter somewhere. Can you guys guide me to the right direction? I am looking to upgrade the tweeter to a better one.

Thanks.

Gio





PT800. Sometimes it was a slight variant: 335663-002.

If it were me, I keep an eye open on ebay (or elsewhere) for an original S Series speaker (or pair) that's seen better days or is being parted out. Grab it cheap, and get the part you need that way. As you've seen, S**IIs won't do—wrong tweeter, and neither will a PC600 or PT800—much too expensive.

If you can read French, you can monitor ebay France and look for an Audax TM025 but you still won't get an EOS Waveguide with it. That's why grabbing the part from an existing speaker is likely to be the better way.[/QUOTE]

rdgrimes
10-15-2010, 03:59 PM
Can we say that the original tweeter found in the JBL 312 is better performer that the JBL s 312II tweeter??

Another thing is....can someone recommend me a good set of tweeters for my JBL s312 ???? I am pretty supre got to be a better tweeter somewhere. Can you guys guide me to the right direction? I am looking to upgrade the tweeter to a better one.

Thanks.

Gio



A big issue in the S312/S312II is the crossover, not so much the tweeter. The tweet in the S312 is crossed over at 3K, which is too low and causes distortion at higher levels. In those models where it's crossed over at 3200-3500, much less trouble is heard.

rpatt
10-15-2010, 04:45 PM
Can we say that the original tweeter found in the JBL 312 is better performer that the JBL s 312II tweeter??

Another thing is....can someone recommend me a good set of tweeters for my JBL s312 ???? I am pretty supre got to be a better tweeter somewhere. Can you guys guide me to the right direction? I am looking to upgrade the tweeter to a better one.

Thanks.

Gio





PT800. Sometimes it was a slight variant: 335663-002.

If it were me, I keep an eye open on ebay (or elsewhere) for an original S Series speaker (or pair) that's seen better days or is being parted out. Grab it cheap, and get the part you need that way. As you've seen, S**IIs won't do—wrong tweeter, and neither will a PC600 or PT800—much too expensive.

If you can read French, you can monitor ebay France and look for an Audax TM025 but you still won't get an EOS Waveguide with it. That's why grabbing the part from an existing speaker is likely to be the better way.[/QUOTE]

The S26, S38, S310, S312, PT800 & PC600 all have the same Audax tweeter. I had to replace all five of my Performance Series speaker tweeters. You can find S26 on Craig's List for about $100. I got a S312 tweeter from a damaged speaker on ebay for $40. I have not heard of a better tweeter replacement.

80sKid
11-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Don't know if any of you will be interested, or see this posting in time. But there is an auction for two PT800s on that infamous auction site. Ends in 1 hour. Currently has no bids with no reserve and a starting price of $850 for the pair.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290493161574&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123

FOLLOWUP: Oh, I see now that the auction was already mentioned and this isn't an amazing deal like I thought. I'm subscribed to this thread so I don't know how I missed these recent discussions.

Is anyone with Performance Series speakers in the NY/New England area? I'd really like to hear them.

80sKid
11-03-2010, 09:59 AM
...Can we say that the original tweeter found in the JBL 312 is better performer that the JBL s 312II tweeter??...

Why would "we" want to say that?

I should think that JBL maintained or improved the product, not degraded it. Sure, Harman engages in cost-cutting regularly, but I can't imagine them doing so at the cost of performance, when doing an update to an existing model line.

My S38 II speakers sound extremely similar to the original S38 models that I also have. I have not A/B'd them, so this impression is based on hearing them with a separation of a few minutes to do the swap. (Plus, I was listening in my basement, not in my usual listening room, so the conditions weren't ideal.)

80sKid
11-03-2010, 10:06 AM
Hey TiDome,

Any further plans and/or progress on the PS250ti Project (a.k.a. L250ti with PS drivers).

:)

Titanium Dome
11-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Hey TiDome,

Any further plans and/or progress on the PS250ti Project (a.k.a. L250ti with PS drivers).

:)

Actually, I just got one of the missing pieces two days ago via FedEx, so now I need to find the time to break out the table saw, router, and jig to fabricate the Tweeter mounting plates. As cool as the cardboard ones are, they're not exactly durable solutions. ;)

80sKid
11-03-2010, 12:48 PM
I hope you'll share some pics in the near future.

JBLAddict
11-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Why would "we" want to say that?

I should think that JBL maintained or improved the product, not degraded it. Sure, Harman engages in cost-cutting regularly, but I can't imagine them doing so at the cost of performance, when doing an update to an existing model line.

My S38 II speakers sound extremely similar to the original S38 models that I also have. I have not A/B'd them, so this impression is based on hearing them with a separation of a few minutes to do the swap. (Plus, I was listening in my basement, not in my usual listening room, so the conditions weren't ideal.)


I was tracking this and thinking about buying them. While maybe not as low as some hear claim to have paid, 425ea. is the best I've seen on the bay in a while.

Personally, I'm not quite prepared yet to convert my Lseries HT, which I've put a lot of energy into building and tuning, into this upgrade, as much as I want to. I thought about getting them just to play around with but honestly the 80Hz required crossover was the main thing since I couldn't run them pure two channel without some kind of funky one sub rig which would not balance right without the PS1400s

80sKid
11-04-2010, 03:29 AM
Amazingly, they did not sell. Zero bids on the auction.

Even more surprising, since it was a deal compared to the listings by the seller "moviepassage". That seller has two auctions for new PT800s -- $700 for a single, $1300 for a pair.

Usually, having a simultaneous auction like that helps "your" lower price auction to look very attractive.

mikebake
11-26-2010, 10:22 AM
Decide to try my first PS foray in to 2 CH. only. Dragged the beasts up from the basement HT and into the living room with no comment from the wife upon her return. Told her I wanted to bring some holiday tunes into the living room on some decent speakers. She likes holiday music. Fait accomplit.
Now for some listening.

Titanium Dome
12-05-2010, 10:12 PM
Mike,

How's that working out? As I wrote before, those PS1500s look great.

Titanium Dome
12-05-2010, 10:33 PM
As I mentioned in the K2 S9900 thread, Roger Dressler of Dolby Labs fame (retired now) came to my house with an AVS buddy of mine who introduced us. he wanted to see/hear the Synthesis® One Array system as chronicled online, especially after seeing the calibration curves.

After we were sidetracked by the K2s for a few hours (see that thread) and he solved almost all my issues regarding equipment and set up, we were going to go downstairs, but had to pass through the Performance Series set, which Sanjay (AVS bud) loves, so of course we stopped to listen to it. Roger loved it, but...

He felt it could be better. So, being the ProLogic, ProLogicII and PLIIx guru he is, he and Sanjay politely took over the system and started fiddling. They loved the sub/bass synergy of the HTPS400s and PS1400s, and after a cursory look, left it alone, (Good job there, Grumpy.) though we had to digress on multisub configuration theory for a while.

Anyway, using a special disc he brought, he reset the balance in the five channels, then started working on those things I never touch because I never know what they're for: panorama, center width, etc. :wtf: :confused: Oh my gosh, did he open that system up! The soundstage got much wider and deeper, the accuracy of placement for instruments and voices was off the charts, and the soundfield was amazingly fluid and unified.

Of course, the guy is a genius, and he's a very down to earth and friendly fellow. I really appreciated him using his good ears and decades of experience to dial in that system. As I wrote in the K2 thread, he commented about the PS, "This is one of the best systems I've heard. I love direct radiators. These are perfect for me. It sounds the way I want music to sound." Later he added to Sanjay, "I felt like I was home with that system." Well, technically, since he tweaked it it was kind of the way it sounded right to him, but it sounded right to me, too, so it was high praise indeed for the Performance Series. :bouncy:

When he left at the end of the day, he gave me the disc he had been using with his compliments. He was first class all the way.

Who says the internet doesn't bring people together?

Mike Ronesia
12-06-2010, 03:28 AM
It sounds like you had a educational experience. It's nice to hear you have so many exceptional systems even the legends are impressed. Did you ever make it down stairs to Synthesis® One Array system?

Living where I do the internet has brought me friends from all over the planet. They're not all guru's but one is a nudi expert. :D

Now, what's on that disk of yours?

I'm starting to get the itch for a couple of black PS1400's :eek:

mikebake
12-06-2010, 06:15 AM
I moved the pair quite a bit further apart than in the photo, and toed them in a bit, as well as pulled a bit mroe out from the wall; it's really sounding pretty good. The room is decent; the high peaked ceiling helps. Nothing too bad going on that room. Now I have to spend some time tuning it by ear. And yes, the rig acquits itself nicely on the aesthetic front, in person. The subs are a good match to the factory tops. My wife hasn't said one word, which is a bit unusual for her.



Mike,

How's that working out? As I wrote before, those PS1500s look great.

Titanium Dome
12-06-2010, 08:41 AM
It sounds like you had a educational experience. It's nice to hear you have so many exceptional systems even the legends are impressed. Did you ever make it down stairs to Synthesis® One Array system?

Living where I do the internet has brought me friends from all over the planet. They're not all guru's but one is a nudi expert. :D

Now, what's on that disk of yours?

I'm starting to get the itch for a couple of black PS1400's :eek:

Hey Mark, it's been a while! Hope all is well.

You find 'em, I'll get them to the freighter for you.

Yes, we made it downstairs to what he called, "Not just a pants-flapping experience, but a shirt-flapping experience as well." He commented that it made his system seem like it had no impact and that the Two Jims sound seemed effortless and limitless. I'll do a more complete commentary in the Synthesis® thread, I guess. If I can find it; it's been a while.

Coming back to the States for a visit in 2011?

rdgrimes
12-06-2010, 09:14 AM
Roger is a regular and much appreciated contributor at AVS.

I can't remember what the makeup of that PS system is. PS1400 stacks or what? I was thinking it is 2x PS1400 stacks with some HTPS400s on the side.

Mike Ronesia
12-06-2010, 12:36 PM
Hey Mark, it's been a while! Hope all is well.

You find 'em, I'll get them to the freighter for you.

Yes, we made it downstairs to what he called, "Not just a pants-flapping experience, but a shirt-flapping experience as well." He commented that it made his system seem like it had no impact and that the Two Jims sound seemed effortless and limitless. I'll do a more complete commentary in the Synthesis® thread, I guess. If I can find it; it's been a while.

Coming back to the States for a visit in 2011?

Thanks Doug, I'll keep my eye out for a deal. I've been messing with my setup, switching from small/lfe to large depending on what is playing and doing some tweaking but only so much I can do with my current tools and talent. All good fun though.

Not sure what the future has in store for us as far as travel but my guess is unless work sends me somewhere for training it's not going to happen. We're going to the Philippines next week with some friends. That drained the travel budget for awhile. If I do get to socal you will hear from me, that much I know.

Titanium Dome
12-10-2010, 09:57 PM
Hey TiDome,

Any further plans and/or progress on the PS250ti Project (a.k.a. L250ti with PS drivers).

:)

Well, the fire got a little fuel today. :)

I picked up a pair of BSS FDS-336T Omnidrive Compact plus units for a very reasonable price. These are barely used units that were tested briefly to see if Synthesis® systems could be calibrated without the extra expense of custom-built SDECs. The short answer was, "No."

We'll be looking at the prospect of four-way active quad-amping of the PS250 for the Frankenstein's monster of all four-ways. Grumpy will read up while I wait for his signal on the brilliance/stupidity of this idea.

polar_bear_0104
12-10-2010, 11:03 PM
Doug,

I don't want to go through the entire 99 pages of the thread to find the answer, can you please clarify again why you need to augment the PS1400 subs with the HTPS subs (?)...in order to make things great with this set-up? I've read it in this thread that you're using 4 subs, right?

are the 1400's not enough to support the PT800s?

cheers
mel

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 08:24 AM
Hi Mel.

That's certainly a comment or question I get frequently from visitors.

"Wow, you have a lot of subs here," or "Why so many subs?" From the LA Home Theater Group meets I sometimes host to individual guests, it's probably the most frequent point of discussion when they step into the family room. When they hear the system in action, there's no doubt in their minds that it works and works very well, but the question then mutates to something like, "Do I need to do this, too?"

The answer is "I don't know," since I have not seen their rooms and do not know what sound they're looking for. Nevertheless, I can give them some information that helps them to see where I'm going in my system and the process that they can emulate if they want. It seems to be a path that Roger Dressler was familiar with, since he liked the Performance Series sound in my space a lot. (see a few posts above this).

When I write "step into the family room," in our house it means take two steps down from the level of the kitchen and living room, which are two steps down from the dining room, with no interior walls separating them from each other. Here's a few shots of the empty space.

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 08:36 AM
As you can see, it's a big space. The Performance Series is in the carpeted area, roughly 25% of the floor space. It's fairly easy to control the MF and HF with the directionality of the speakers and a few sneaky room treatments, but the LF can be quite challenging.

Here's a current look at the living room/family room boundary. You can see the sneaky room treatments: the back of the couch and chair as absorbers behind the PS fronts, and the drop down shades on the big glass surfaces to break up early reflections off the glass.

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 08:52 AM
With the highs and mids easily controlled, the real challenge in that big space was getting the LF addressed in four areas:


Generating enough LF output energy to load the volume (cu. ft.) of the entire floor without being overbearing in the family room.
Controlling the extensive and complex peaks and nulls in LF waves.
Getting a smooth and well integrated LF house curve in the prime listening space no matter where guests were to sit.
Meeting the placement restrictions for LF drivers placed by my co-habitant or addressing the GAF.


So the first step was to place everything in the best location possible for those things that could go in those places. That was fairly easy with the mains and surrounds, and the quickest way to both get them at the correct height and get the directionally perceptible bass co-located was to put FL, FR, SL, and SR on top of PS1400s. That's how I ended up with four PS1400s in the room.

The next step was to get the center up to the same level, which required a bit of innovation, and it turned out that the table that I used has two openings that would fit two HTPS400s very neatly underneath. This met the GAF, but was not ideal sub placement, but it seemed an acceptable compromise for getting a couple of subs in there, so I crossed over from PS1400s to HTPS400s at 80-100 Hz and ran the subs a little hot to get the impact I wanted at the primary seating position.

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 09:01 AM
An unexpected third step occurred when a couple of AVS buddies brought over a BassQ unit and Grumpy brought over his MacBook Pro and FuzzMeasure. We'd all recently been on the Harman International tour in Northridge and gotten the multisubs info reinforced, so we messed around with the BassQ trying to take the hotness out of my two-sub configuration while giving a more uniform bass response. It was OK, but not really getting us where we wanted to go.

So Grumpy got out the Mac and the mic :p , and we dragged in two extra subs I had plus an amp and put them more or less in the midpoint positions of the sides, and it improved the sound and leveled it out quite a bit.

Then it was bye-bye BassQ and hello more subs.

rdgrimes
12-11-2010, 09:12 AM
so I crossed over from PS1400s to HTPS400s at 80-100 Hz and ran the subs a little hot to get the impact I wanted at the primary seating position.
In my room, the PS1400 stacks are producing abundant peaks in the 60Hz range due to placement. They are attenuated close to 10db at 60Hz by my auto-setup EQ. Thus, I use a 40Hz crossover to my HTPS400 when I want some VLF bump in 2-ch listening. Otherwise I let the PS1400s run full-range with the HTPS400 used for LFE channel only in 5.1 listening. I use the HTPS400 behind the sofa as a butt-kicker and that's exactly what it does. I'd be happy to have another one to keep it company but would place it elsewhere in the room to "fill in".

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 09:15 AM
Leading to step four, I sought out an additional HTPS400 as I already had a spare in the garage, and I brought them in to replace the two subs we had temporarily installed. Of course, the GAF came into play again, and it was down into the rear corners for the HTPS400s.

During some intervening AVS meets, the surround guys were insistent and correct in noting the PT800/PS1400 stacks needed to be where the HTPS400s were, so they came out of the corners and forward about 24" to allow the stacks to be in the right place.

Subsequent to that, Grumpy was over to work on the PS250, and I asked him to help me recal the Performance set up. We discovered a nice hole in the LF response, surrounded by respectable peaks. This was probably a suck out by the room modes combined with overlapping output by so many LF drivers (Grumpy will remember better than I). This lead to changing the crossover points to allow the LE14H-3s to cover the hole better. He also got me to cut some of the heat in the LF, which I love, BTW, but which I also know is not to everyone's liking.

At that point and not considering roll offs, we had everything below 60Hz going to the subs except the center, which was at 100Hz. The PS1400s were covering 60-130Hz for everything but the center.

Guests who heard the system after that commented on how great it sounded, and especially those who had heard it before were saying how it sounded better everytime they heard it.

Titanium Dome
12-11-2010, 09:26 AM
Step five in this process was the visit from Roger Dressler, who as I noted, loved the Performance Series and spent some time helping to fine tune it as a complete system. His advice to lower the crossover to the HTPS400 to 40Hz, was challenging for me. After all, I've got four powerful subs and I'm only going to use them from 40Hz on down? Isn't that kind of a waste of all that power and ability?

He was right of course. Now the LE14H-3s are handling 40-130Hz, the heart of their peak performance, and the HTPS400s handily and easily take care of everything below that, plus the below 80Hz output of the center channel. In addition, he had me raise the HTPS400 output +5 dB to compensate for loss to the huge space.

There you have it for now. That's how it works in my odd, large space with the PS sitting in 25% of the open floor, yet producing an intimate and precise listening environment that one of the world's leading surround experts proclaimed "perfect for me."

If placed in a more typical room, it might be way too much. It would certainly require extensive re-thinking and calibration. :)

polar_bear_0104
12-11-2010, 11:44 PM
hey Doug,

Many thanks for a most detailed explanation. As usual, your sharing is very insightful..having seen your listening area, I now understand how the 4 subs can combine to smoothen the output across. and you're right that in a smaller, more enclosed area, this may be overpowering. but then again, with the use of modern sound shaping tools to address room modes and nulls, having the 4 subs may actually be still the way to go---smooth, balanced and effortless bass around the room....yummy.....

searat55
12-12-2010, 09:59 PM
A Question to TD or other owner of the PT 800 / PS 1400 speakers –

I am an avid two channel listener, no HT. Would these speakers give me “great” two channel performance with standard separates ( M.F. A5 pre and Bi Amp Hafler 9500 amps). I run Revel Salons in living room and JBL L100 T3’s in family room- most of the time I like the JBL’s. I have thought about getting a pair of the 250TI, but they seem a bit hard to come by. I do like the vocals on the Revels, but they seem a bit thin in the mid base for me- rock is probably 75% of my listening. Would you say after the years you have owned the Performance series speakers - are they clearly superior compared to the past JBL greats – not too shrill or forward for most rock recordings? Are you still very happy with them?
Thanks for any opinion –
Searat55

KCM
01-25-2011, 12:10 PM
I just received today a pair of new PS1400's to go along with a slightly used pair of PT800's that I bought a few months ago.

What I didn't get is the docking kit, so I'm going to have to make some spacer blocks. Can someone please tell me the length of these so that I can duplicate them accurately ? I'm guess-timating ~3", but I'd like to know for sure.

Thanks !

rdgrimes
01-25-2011, 01:25 PM
I just received today a pair of new PS1400's to go along with a slightly used pair of PT800's that I bought a few months ago.

What I didn't get is the docking kit, so I'm going to have to make some spacer blocks. Can someone please tell me the length of these so that I can duplicate them accurately ? I'm guess-timating ~3", but I'd like to know for sure.

Thanks !
Do you have the steel plates in the base of the PT800?

2.5" from the top of the plate on the PS1400 to the mounting surface on that plate. If you don't have the plates it also 2.5" to the lower edge of the PT800 cab. the Pt800 should be centered over the mounting bolt holes. IOW, the plate on the PS1400 is the same shape and size as the PT800 and the PT800 should be exactly over it.

KCM
01-25-2011, 01:41 PM
Do you have the steel plates in the base of the PT800?

2.5" from the top of the plate on the PS1400 to the mounting surface on that plate. If you don't have the plates it also 2.5" to the lower edge of the PT800 cab. the Pt800 should be centered over the mounting bolt holes. IOW, the plate on the PS1400 is the same shape and size as the PT800 and the PT800 should be exactly over it.

Yes, I have the PT800 plates. So, 2-1/2" it is - Thank you very much !

Titanium Dome
01-25-2011, 04:04 PM
A Question to TD or other owner of the PT 800 / PS 1400 speakers –

I am an avid two channel listener, no HT. Would these speakers give me “great” two channel performance with standard separates ( M.F. A5 pre and Bi Amp Hafler 9500 amps). I run Revel Salons in living room and JBL L100 T3’s in family room- most of the time I like the JBL’s. I have thought about getting a pair of the 250TI, but they seem a bit hard to come by. I do like the vocals on the Revels, but they seem a bit thin in the mid base for me- rock is probably 75% of my listening. Would you say after the years you have owned the Performance series speakers - are they clearly superior compared to the past JBL greats – not too shrill or forward for most rock recordings? Are you still very happy with them?
Thanks for any opinion –
Searat55

You're talking about the original Salons, which are fine, fine speakers, but there were some small but noticeable shortcomings over time and exposure. I feel these were addressed in the Ultima2 Salons, which IMO is a significantly better speaker than the original.

Now, on to your inquiry.

If you limit the discussion to consumer models, then I would not find anything that would knock out the Performance Series except Array, K2 and Everest. My L250s do not, my L7s do not, my S/2600s do not, my SVA2100s do not, and my XPL200As come close but do not. Yeah, I've some other JBLs, too...not, not, not.

FWIW, I've had extensive ear time with 250Ti, and maybe a pristine pair with solid drivers would be competitive, but I like the Ti inverted domes much, much better than the kit in the 250Ti, and the smooth-domed Ti tweeter, too. So I guess just the larger cabinet volume gets better bass from the 14 and it definitely looks better. :yes:

Actually, I'm on a long, slow journey to putting Performance Series drivers in L250 cabs and actively quad-amping them. That should be the best of both (or the worst).

As for the Ti10K, it would make a great competitor for your attention, but if you really want to rock, you'll need a sub; otherwise you're sort of reliving parts of the original Salon experience.

The Performance Series is neither shrill nor forward. It's a very spacious, clean, and detailed system.

Mike Ronesia
01-26-2011, 11:59 AM
I just received today a pair of new PS1400's to go along with a slightly used pair of PT800's that I bought a few months ago.

What I didn't get is the docking kit,

Did you get these from the factory? I have a pair in transit and sure hope the kits are in the box.

KCM
01-26-2011, 01:49 PM
Did you get these from the factory? I have a pair in transit and sure hope the kits are in the box.


No, I bought my PT800's from a Harman employee and he was checking with JBL on availability of PS1400's. Last I heard they were supposed to have 10 pairs but wanted to put their eyes on them to be sure. When I didn't hear any more for several weeks I renewed my search. Found this pair in NYC.

I believe the hardware is to be in a seperate box, not packaged with the PS1400's. Hope you get them, but it's easy to make something functionally equivalent. I found some 1/2" thick ,black fiberglass sheet at work and had the pieces cut on a waterjet yesterday. Drilled the holes and I'm good to go :bouncy: