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MJC
09-10-2007, 09:27 PM
I have a question that I can't find the answer to. I have the PT800/PS1400 combo and docked together. I am running power to these from a 300w/ch amp using conventional speaker wire. The question I have is: when wired in this configuration, is the internal amp in the PS1400 bypassed or is it always inline? And if the internal amp is always inline, does it also power the PT800. I looked in the owners guide and couldn't find the answers to these questions. What do you guys think.


The PS1400 is a powered sub, so its amp is always on. In the stacked configuration they act as a full range tower, with the internal xo @130htz. But the entire 300w from your amp is going to the PT800.

MJC
09-10-2007, 09:29 PM
That price on the PC600 is interesting since I got one off ebay last month for $331.
Guess its just a matter of who sees the auction and how much they are willing to pay.
Making a stock pile of PS units?

Titanium Dome
09-10-2007, 09:38 PM
I have a question that I can't find the answer to. I have the PT800/PS1400 combo and docked together. I am running power to these from a 300w/ch amp using conventional speaker wire. The question I have is: when wired in this configuration, is the internal amp in the PS1400 bypassed or is it always inline? And if the internal amp is always inline, does it also power the PT800. I looked in the owners guide and couldn't find the answers to these questions. What do you guys think.

There's a passive crossover before the amp that sends the LF to the sub amp and everything else to the PT800. The LF is sorted out as line level, while the rest is sent speaker level (and amplified by your 300W amp) to the PT800.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2007, 09:39 PM
Guess its just a matter of who sees the auction and how much they are willing to pay.
Making a stock pile of PS units?

I wanted a pair of those 906Tis as spares. :yes:

MJC
09-10-2007, 09:41 PM
And I'm still thinking of adding ultra tweeters to the mains.

porschedpm
09-10-2007, 10:43 PM
There's a passive crossover before the amp that sends the LF to the sub amp and everything else to the PT800. The LF is sorted out as line level, while the rest is sent speaker level (and amplified by your 300W amp) to the PT800.

Thanks for the response. If that's the case I'm thinking I can probably get by with a smaller amp for the PT800's. 300w/ch might be a bit of an overkill for them.

JBLnsince1959
09-11-2007, 09:07 AM
I have the PT800/PS1400 combo and docked together. I am running power to these from a 300w/ch amp using conventional speaker wire. The question I have is: when wired in this configuration, is the internal amp in the PS1400 bypassed or is it always inline? And if the internal amp is always inline, does it also power the PT800. I looked in the owners guide and couldn't find the answers to these questions. What do you guys think.



I'm thinking I can probably get by with a smaller amp for the PT800's. 300w/ch might be a bit of an overkill for them.

yes, the amp is always on ( flip the switch of course - ha)and it powers the LE14-3,your amp powers the PT800.. Personally if it were me, I'll leave the 300 watt amp as it could provide some real headroom. I'm using a 200 watt Marantz MA700 mono to each PT800


the PS1400 and PT800 stack is a very interesting design. However, all is not what it appears with this configuration....

If you want to play around here's somethings I have tried....When I first got them I tried to Bi-amp them using my ashly active crossover..

1. Crossed-over at 130... higher freq's powered by it's own amp and wires running driectly into the speaker inputs on the pT800; ran the lower side into FLE/subwoofer input - bass sounded weak and totally unbalanced with the PT800..THEN..

2. same as above for the high side, but fed the lower freq into a 400 watt amp and then ran wires from the amp into the LF speaker wire inputs...same problem - weak bass and unbalanced with the PT800.

No amount of adjusting the LFE or LF volumn made any real difference( always unbalanced)..... the only reason i could figure is that the design of the PS1400 crossover( and equalizer) is expecting a full range signal and any change to this, such as sending the PS1400 a signal already adjusted with a crossover, changed the "tuning" and response of the PS1400 over all and would always sound unbalance with the PT800 when stacked. I was really surprised when using the LFE input as I figured that bypassed the PS1400 crossover. At first the only solution I could come up with was to totally disconnect the PS1400 crossover and amp and just run the wires directly to the LE14-3, which I did not want to do.


However, i alway felt that some form of bi-amping HAD to improve the over all sound..if for no other reason than to bypass all the connections from the PS1400 to the PS800.

When Russ and his wife was here one Sunday ( Rusnzha), I showed Russ the results of the above trials and he came to the same conclusion... THEN..I took the time to try something I had been thinking of for awhile.........and the difference was stunning...

I split the Right and Left signal directly from the output of the pre-amp ( each with a full signal), one set went into the ashly cossover ( set at 130) and the high side into an amp ( ma700) and then into the PT800. The second left and right full signal I ran into a 400 watt amp ( mac ) and then ran wires from the mac into the speaker wire inputs on the PS1400 letting the PS1400 crossover do it's job... incredible sound....

At first using a separate 400 watt amp to run into the PS1400 amp may seem redundant ( well, it is) however, it's the only way i've been able to bi-amp the PS stack with ANY reasonable sound AND it's the only way I know to get the PS1400 crossover to do it's job.

One thing I've realized about the amp in the PS1400, is that it takes on the characteristics of whatever amp it's being fed.

When I first played the PS stack with this last configuartion both Russ and and I looked at each with stunned looks.. WOW what a sound.... The most noticeable difference is the clarity of the PT800, hate to use such tried expressions, but really, it was like a veil being removed, particualrly with the upper mids and highs...

well, got to go to work. I thought maybe this was a good time to throw this out to the forum..

Try it and see what you get..

Don C
09-11-2007, 09:20 AM
I'm feeding the bottom of my stacks with the low level sub output from my AV processor. I'm using long RCA cables going to the input jacks on the sub. I have found that I have to set the sub output to +10db on the processor to get it to balance with the PT800s. This is with the volume control on the back of the sub turned all the way up. It's not like a Velodyne or some other subs, there's no extra gain to fool with in the sub amp.

JBLnsince1959
09-11-2007, 10:28 AM
I'm feeding the bottom of my stacks with the low level sub output from my AV processor. I'm using long RCA cables going to the input jacks on the sub. I have found that I have to set the sub output to +10db on the processor to get it to balance with the PT800s. This is with the volume control on the back of the sub turned all the way up. It's not like a Velodyne or some other subs, there's no extra gain to fool with in the sub amp.

yes, I tried that and every other thingy, the last situation is the ONLY way, I've been able to get any true balance ( everyones milage will vary of course). I tried using the gain control on the ashly for the lower freq. but it didn't work to my satisfaction either. And it just wasn't the balance either, it was the sound too... BTW, I'm using speakers in Stereo ( mac stereo pre-amp etc) so, LFE had to come from the ashly only.

When I put the PS series trans into the 250 box, the PS 1400 crossover, amp and other goodies are NOT coming along with the LE14-3. Going to bi-amp and run the wires straight to the woofer.:bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
09-11-2007, 10:47 AM
Don:

I have a question on your setup. How do you control what freq you're running to the pS1400 ( or what Freqs are going there)?

are you using them that way in HT or stereo or both?

take care

Don C
09-11-2007, 11:56 AM
I'm letting the AV processor handle the frequency division, by setting the mains to small, and setting the subwoofer to on. I'm running it this way for everything. It seems to work OK, but I do still fiddle with the subwoofer level on the processor quite a lot. I think that the +10 setting is needed due to the "LFE bug" that I've read about at AVS forums and elsewhere. But different discs seem to require adjustments between +7 to +12 to give a balanced sound. Eventually, I'm going to rip all of the electronics out of the sub and retune the sub to take advantage of the extra airspace inside the cabinet. Or I may just get rid of this sub cabinet and obtain something larger. The best sound that I've ever had from this setup was when I was running the Fosgate FS400 passive sub with an external crossover, so I'd like to get back closer to that setup.

Titanium Dome
09-11-2007, 12:23 PM
Yep, that Fosgate sub's a banger, in every good sense of the word. :bouncy:

Of course, the JBL driver helps. :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
09-11-2007, 01:33 PM
I'm letting the AV processor handle the frequency division, by setting the mains to small, and setting the subwoofer to on. I'm running it this way for everything. It seems to work OK, but I do still fiddle with the subwoofer level on the processor quite a lot. .

Ok, now I understand....once I got this last configuration completed the way i wanted it, it has stayed balanced CD to CD and the sound is wonderful..


II think that the +10 setting is needed due to the "LFE bug" that I've read about at AVS forums and elsewhere. .

I'm not aware of that bug( i'm only on this forum ), can you enlighten me as to what the "bug" is? Whatever it is, the PS1400 needs something when trying to bi-amp. I'm not sure if it's the smaller size ( LE14's are best around 4 CF) or if it's electronics or the amp. Of course the LE14's are not deeep subwoofers either - damn good bass and midbass woofers, but not subwoofers. But then again, I'm not into HT or subwoofers, I just wanted a good old fashion bi-amp stereo speaker.

But the work I had to go thru with the PS1400 in biamping is just strange at best...

I got the feeling when using the PS series stack it was either it's way, or the highway. Using the stack with it's own setup was very good, I just thought it could do more. I've at least proven that to myself once I tried this last setup


. Or I may just get rid of this sub cabinet and obtain something larger. .

That's what I first wanted to do, but that can be tricky also. Since I don't do HT and do the stereo thing, once I would do that i might as well start over ( thus...doing the 250 box thingy).

Don't get me wrong here, the PS series stack is a wonderful speaker, and considering the design ( modualr HT) it does a really good job for stereo. It's a very clever design.....

Don C
09-11-2007, 04:30 PM
LFE bug discussion:
http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7683

MJC
09-11-2007, 07:02 PM
I'm letting the AV processor handle the frequency division, by setting the mains to small, and setting the subwoofer to on. I'm running it this way for everything. It seems to work OK, but I do still fiddle with the subwoofer level on the processor quite a lot. I think that the +10 setting is needed due to the "LFE bug" that I've read about at AVS forums and elsewhere. But different discs seem to require adjustments between +7 to +12 to give a balanced sound. Eventually, I'm going to rip all of the electronics out of the sub and retune the sub to take advantage of the extra airspace inside the cabinet. Or I may just get rid of this sub cabinet and obtain something larger. The best sound that I've ever had from this setup was when I was running the Fosgate FS400 passive sub with an external crossover, so I'd like to get back closer to that setup.
I find running the sub, using the receiver's sub XO menu, going to a Crown K2, and nothing else, works very well. Instead of the PS1400, I'm using two SUB1500s, no limiters or any other kind of electronics in the sub box.
So with the main L/R PT800s mounted on top of the SUB1500s gives me in reality, biamped, full range mains.
The one thing lacking is having stereo sub outs on the receiver.

JBLnsince1959
09-12-2007, 01:41 PM
LFE bug discussion:
http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7683

Thanks Don, much appreciated...

Titanium Dome
09-13-2007, 12:41 AM
There's a little love for the HTPS400 here:

http://www.electronichouse.com/slideshow/category/180/27

MJC
09-18-2007, 01:16 PM
I just add spikes(parts express) to the sub1500 boxes, which have the PT800s mounted on top, sure makes the bass cleaner and the sound from the PT800s more detailed.
Mike Bake, I was just looking at your PT800/sub1500 pics. Looks like your sub boxes are sitting right on the floor w/o any feet, is that right?

I had 2" dia x 1 1/4" high mdf feet on my subs boxes, but took them off in favor of the spikes.

mikebake
09-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Got spikes sitting here for 5 months, have not installed, not a problem since I haven't had the system hooked up since February............

4313B
09-18-2007, 05:16 PM
not a problem since I haven't had the system hooked up since February............Uh oh! Do I owe you a deliverable that I've forgotten about?

mikebake
09-18-2007, 05:39 PM
Uh oh! Do I owe you a deliverable that I've forgotten about?
Yes. It's that charge coupled personal time expander module. What is the problem??

HokieJoe
10-27-2007, 12:42 PM
Hello guys, great forum. First post here. I've skimmed this thread and haven't seen any mention about the box design of the PC600. After having read Vance Dickason's LSDC, I find it quite intriguing that the PC600's front baffle is very close in design to Dickason's "ideal" center channel. The ideal being to maximize horizontal dispersion whilst limiting vertical dispersion.

For the owners of this fine looking speaker, how well does it render in-movie dialogue? Consider me a horizontal MTM owner wondering if Dickason's theory is proper in execution. (Not that I doubt him, but I appreciate first hand reports).

Titanium Dome
10-31-2007, 08:38 PM
The PC600 is a fine speaker, to be sure. There are a few schools of thought regarding centers in general. Here are three that I have some personal experience with:

1. The best center is identical to the fronts.
2. The best center is purpose built for center placement.
3. The best center is no center.

I'll make three successive comments in subsequent posts. :)

Titanium Dome
10-31-2007, 08:49 PM
1. The best center is identical to the fronts.

In this view, the better center would be the PT800 rather than the PC600. I have so many of these Performance Series units that I can easily put PT800s up front instead of PC600s.

In order for this to be as effective as possible, it helps to have the center PT800 at the same elevation as the two mains. Since I have these sitting stacked on PS1400s in an audio-only system, this means wall-mounting or stand mounting. Of course doing this totally precludes adding video at some point in the future, unless I move the speaker up or down.

In both cases of experimentation, either up or down, the imaging suffers and the effect becomes a little like the picket fence syndrome we sometimes hear described. It really mucks up the stability of the sound stage.

Tilting the PT800 up or down toward the listening position helps alleviate this, but IME this introduces some timing issues and it also narrows the sweet spot quite a bit.

Ignoring video for the moment, though, a PT800 as a center works quite well in an audio-only system when it is mounted the same height and distance from the listener as the mains.

In fact, my next move is to try three PS1400/PT800 stacks across the front and two PT800s for the rears with no subs for an audio 5.0 system.

Titanium Dome
10-31-2007, 09:12 PM
2. The best center is purpose built for center placement.

In the case of the purpose-built center, it's a bigger compromise from the get-go than using an identical speaker, inasmuch as it starts with the notion that it's unlikely to be in an ideal placement. If video is in the system, then the center is going to be above or below the screen, and that's it. Mostly it's placed below the screen, because above it is usually problematic.

Center channels come in all shapes, sizes, and configurations, but the better ones I've heard all have some common elements.

A. They use identical drivers for the MF and HF as do the mains.
B. The MF and HF drivers have the same alignment and baffle orientation as the mains.
C. The LF drivers are identical in composition to the LF drivers on the mains, but since there are two, they are slightly smaller.
D. The LF drivers do not share the same baffle orientation as the MF and HF drivers, but are arranged as Dickason suggests in his book.
E. The cabinet (enclosure) is made of the same material and density as the mains and replicates crucial chambers and volumes.

Of course, the PC600 design does all this, plus has a purpose-built crossover for its components.

In practice, a PC600 placed as close to the same height as the PT800 mains works remarkably well in a typical center channel position. Because of the dispersion characteristics of its dual 906Ti drivers, its being lower seems less of a problem than a PT800 in the same position. The picket fence syndrome doesn't present itself until the speaker is way out of position. The soundstage stays firm and the imaging is better than a PT800 in the same position, even if it's tilted to compensate.

As a side note, I put a PC600 up at the same height as the PT800s to see how it fared in an all-audio system. It worked great, and seemed to fit right in. However, I'd have to say it looked a little stupid up there all by itself. Compared to the thin PT800s, it looked like it wanted to fall right off the wall or at least bang someone in the head.

Titanium Dome
10-31-2007, 09:30 PM
3. The best center is no center.

You know, I actually have a lot of fondness for this position. In fact, when I had a chance to hear K2 S9800s with and without a center channel, I thought they worked better without an SK2-1000. (Note: I see that the Synthesis K2 system now does not include the SK2-1000 as a center; instead it's THREE K2 S9800SEs!)

In any event the system I heard sounded better with the SK2 off and the K2 S9800s providing phantom center. The pre/pro had the center set to "none."

I've tried the Performance Series with the center set to "none" and it sounds pretty good. It's better on music than on movies. In fact, on movies, content is lost, IMO, as I played sections of Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers over and over switching between center and no center, and there was definite content loss.

On two-channel sources (set to PLIIx or L7) and multichannel sources on an audio-only basis, though, the lack of a center is viable. Or it is until you get a PC600 into the mix, then it's not quite so convincing.

But the PC600 is an amazing speaker, ideally suited for the Performance System. I've heard some centers like the LC1 from the Studio L Series or the Voice from the Venue Series where it really made sense to me to either supplant them with an identical speaker to the mains, or just shut the damn things off and use "none."

MJC
10-31-2007, 10:06 PM
In order for this to be as effective as possible, it helps to have the center PT800 at the same elevation as the two mains. Since I have these sitting stacked on PS1400s in an audio-only system, this means wall-mounting or stand mounting. Of course doing this totally precludes adding video at some point in the future, unless I move the speaker up or down.


When I play DVD-A or SACD I mount my center PT800 on top of an old L212 base, which puts it to almost the same height as the L/R PT800s, which are mounted to SUB1500s. Works very well.
But it depends on the DVD-A or SACD, as many don't use the center channel.
For movies the center PT800 sits on the floor, with althread posts raising it so its just below the screen and is tilted back, so the tweeter is aimed right at the ear elevation.

MJC
11-22-2007, 10:49 AM
One thing I had not thought of as far as docking the PT800 to the PS1400, is the mounting "stands". As there weren't any in the PT800 boxes, I would assume that they are shipped in the boxes with the PS1400.

Titanium Dome
11-22-2007, 11:10 AM
Yes, the mounting pillars come inside the little white accessories box that ships with the PS1400. It's the same size box that ships with the PT800 that contains the wall mount and rubber bumpers.

Don C
11-22-2007, 07:11 PM
You can still buy the pillars from Harman. Mine were missing, so I placed an order at Harmanaudio.com (http://www.harmanaudio.com/). It came to about $40.00 for four of them. You'll also have to buy some bolts, they are not included.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/partlist.asp?Parts=PS1400BLK&BrandId=JBL&MarketId=HOM

MJC
11-23-2007, 08:47 AM
You can still buy the pillars from Harman. Mine were missing, so I placed an order at Harmanaudio.com (http://www.harmanaudio.com/). It came to about $40.00 for four of them. You'll also have to buy some bolts, they are not included.


Well that's not right, you should have contacted JBL about the pillars being missing in the PS1400 boxes. After providing proof of purchase, they would have sent you the pillars for free.
A similar thing happened with one of the members, here, that bought either the L880s or L890s, He didn't have the feet that attach to the bottoms of the speakers. After he showed proof of purchase, JBL sent him the feet for free.

If I ever do buy a pair of PS1400s, I'd set them up in a stacked config with the mains, full range, and set my two sub1500s at the mid-points of the side walls for LFE only duty.

One a differnet note, I'm still debating as to buying a PC600, so I can decide for myself, if a PC600 would be better than using a PT800 for a center. Ti Dome seems to think its better in his setups.
In all of my HT setups I've always used 3 identical speakers across the front; either 3 L55s, 3 L212s, and now 3 PT800s.

Titanium Dome
11-23-2007, 06:03 PM
I think a PT800 is easier to find and less expensive on the street. I'm not sure I'd want to pay the full price or even the refurb price for a PC600 ($1050) when I could get another PT800 for roughly 25% ($500 or less) of retail with smart and patient shopping.

I wouldn't say it's a $500 improvement to have a PC600, especially if you can get a PT800 up high enough under your screen. Then again, I would say it's a $250 dollar improvement. ;)

MJC
11-24-2007, 11:08 AM
I wouldn't say it's a $500 improvement to have a PC600, especially if you can get a PT800 up high enough under your screen. Then again, I would say it's a $250 dollar improvement. ;)
The only difference between the location of my center PT800 and a PC600 would be having two mid-bass drivers and their location to the sides of the tweeter and mid, instead of closer to the floor.
The tweeter and mid would be at exactlly the same elevation as they are now, with the top of the box one inch below the screen.
If we didn't already know that the units can be had for less, at times, I'd might spring for the $1050 price for a PC600. The same for the PS1400.
I'm in the mode, if a PC600 comes along at a cheap price, I'll grab it, if not , so be it.

Peter_Klim
01-09-2008, 12:24 AM
Cool thread! I own a 5.1 system of JBLs too!

Titanium Dome
03-08-2008, 09:54 AM
1. The best center is identical to the fronts.

In this view, the better center would be the PT800 rather than the PC600. I have so many of these Performance Series units that I can easily put PT800s up front instead of PC600s.

In order for this to be as effective as possible, it helps to have the center PT800 at the same elevation as the two mains. Since I have these sitting stacked on PS1400s in an audio-only system, this means wall-mounting or stand mounting. Of course doing this totally precludes adding video at some point in the future, unless I move the speaker up or down.

In both cases of experimentation, either up or down, the imaging suffers and the effect becomes a little like the picket fence syndrome we sometimes hear described. It really mucks up the stability of the sound stage.

Tilting the PT800 up or down toward the listening position helps alleviate this, but IME this introduces some timing issues and it also narrows the sweet spot quite a bit.

Ignoring video for the moment, though, a PT800 as a center works quite well in an audio-only system when it is mounted the same height and distance from the listener as the mains.

In fact, my next move is to try three PS1400/PT800 stacks across the front and two PT800s for the rears with no subs for an audio 5.0 system.

What I ended up with for the SACD/DVD-A MCH audio only system is this:
LF: PS1400/PT800 full range stack
C: PT800
RF: PS1400/PT800 full range stack
Sub: HTPS400
LR: PT800
RR: PT800

The sound in an open, three-level (various floor and ceiling elevations), 1024' sq. living area is immaculate.

Titanium Dome
03-08-2008, 09:56 AM
The PC600 I bought for this system was destroyed in shipping.

Titanium Dome
03-08-2008, 09:59 AM
Here's what a pair of destroyed 906Tis looks like. One just has a cracked and broken frame, while the other is completely destroyed.

hjames
03-08-2008, 10:10 AM
Thats just a crying shame, TiDo - hope you get reimbursed for that madness.

Titanium Dome
03-08-2008, 11:08 AM
The Performance Series set up in the "Two Jims Theatre" uses a PC600, six PT800s, two PS 1400s (not stacked but used as subs) and two HTPS400s. Of course, the four subs are positioned and calibrated using the Harman International white paper on multisubs, with one sub at the midpoint of each wall. All the satellites are powered by a JBL Performance AVA7, the rebranded seven channel Lexicon amp. The pre/pro is the Fosgate Audionics FAP T1+, hence the Two Jims moniker.*


*Jim Lansing and Jim Fosgate.

Titanium Dome
03-08-2008, 11:14 AM
The Performance Series stereo set up is now in the music room, with two cherry PT800s mated to Fosgate Audionics FA400 THX subs with JBL LE14H-1 drivers in them. They share the room with L100s, XPL200s, L7s, and an SVA five channel set up (SVA2100, SVA1800, SVA Center).

And with all that, there's still three PT800s in boxes in the garage. What a sickness!

Mr. Widget
03-08-2008, 11:19 AM
And with all that, there's still three PT800s in boxes in the garage. What a sickness!It's good to see you recognizing it as such. That said, I have realized my own condition for decades, and with the exception of a few brief moments of sanity, there doesn't seem to be any relief from it. I've even tried listening to Klipsch speakers to break the spell. :blink:


Widget

oznob
03-08-2008, 11:32 AM
It's good to see you recognizing it as such. That said, I have realized my own condition for decades, and with the exception of a few brief moments of sanity, there doesn't seem to be any relief from it. I've even tried listening to Klipsch speakers to break the spell. :blink:


Widget

My prescription is to take two Bose 901's and call me in the morning!:p

JBLnsince1959
03-09-2008, 09:39 PM
Hi Doug

sorry to see your loss..WOW..hope you get you money back.


What a sickness!
Oh no, it's not a sickness.. a sickness is an organic malfunction within a living organism

sadly this is far worst....it's a mental ILLNESS:p

There have been many studies of this particular ILLNESS at the Menninger Foundation, but so far nothing conculsive as to it's origin, or remedy has been identified:(

It was first thought that maybe the problem was in the Cerebral Cortex, particualrly in the frontal lobe, but all test have failed to pin point anything difinitive. In fact all tests have had an amazing margin of error of 99.9999%, leaving all researchers baffled..:banghead:

So far the best they can advise is to just to live with it like John Forbes Nash did with his illness( A Beautifull Mind)

of course all is not loss. It seems that "group therapy" can help. While not a cure, it does appear that groups such as LHF can help to releive SOME of the underlieing anxiety. Apparently it helps just knowing that there are others who also suffer with this illness.:bouncy:

all the best Doug....

lekomark
04-25-2008, 03:51 PM
Any one in JBL land tried stacking PT 800's?

4313B
04-25-2008, 03:56 PM
Any one in JBL land tried stacking PT 800's?To what end?

lekomark
04-26-2008, 08:25 AM
for a line array effect in the highs and mids (sort of an array) more punch
came across 4 PT 800 and do not another amp or source for rears
thanks

Titanium Dome
05-01-2008, 12:18 PM
Any one in JBL land tried stacking PT 800's?


To what end?


for a line array effect in the highs and mids (sort of an array) more punch
came across 4 PT 800 and do not another amp or source for rears
thanks

4313B's query is both literal and figurative. Literally, when you think about stacking them, are you putting them top-to-top, bottom-to-bottom, or top-to-bottom?

Figuratively, I think your answer is that you have (or can get) four PT800s but you only have one amp so you want to use all four up front as some kind of array.

So, you need to answer these questions:
How will you be stacking them?
Are you going to try to connect them in series or parallel with two speakers running off each channel in your amp?
Will you be using a subwoofer or running them full range?

Off the top of my head, from the bottom of my heart, based on my experience, my gut reaction, after due consideration, is that this is a bad idea unless you have a really clear picture of what you want to do and how to do it. Even in the best of circumstances, the EOS Waveguides will make this much more problematic than flipping over an old L100 and stacking it on another L100.

lekomark
05-06-2008, 03:43 PM
they will stacked tweeter to tweeter on top of ps 1400
run in parallel ( i believe the ps 800 are 8 ohms) with a krell 400 intergrated amp

Titanium Dome
05-07-2008, 11:46 PM
Well, the proof is always in the doing. Either you'll like the result, dislike the result, or feel it doesn't make much difference.

I'd still be concerned about the EOS Waveguides' dispersion patterns competing/conflicting/canceling out each other at various frequencies, but careful listening will reveal whether that happens or not. Also, the PS1400s may not be enough if the combined output of the four PT800s is not controlled and balanced with them.

Titanium Dome
05-07-2008, 11:52 PM
I picked up a pair of S26 speakers for $60 to harvest the tweeters based on published info that they are direct replacements for the tweeters in the Performance Series. Lo and behold, they are a perfect match, down to the part number.

Inasmuch as the replacement tweeters list for $52 each and are also described as NLA, this is an inexpensive source of this important part.

lekomark
05-09-2008, 03:20 PM
thanks, you have been most helpful
will let you know how it sounds

rdgrimes
08-14-2008, 01:07 PM
I'm hoping ya'll will let anyone in here. ;)

Just received my "new" Performance 5:2 setup off FleaBay, have a few issues. Am missing one "JBL" plastic logo plate off the PS1400 connectors, and one set (4) of the round-head black screws off the bottom of the PT800. I did order a couple items off HarmanAudio that may or may not be the right things, but if anyone knows the correct part numbers I'd be gratefull to know them.

Next, the numskull that owned this set pulled the aluminum top plate off one 1400, yanking the wires off the little LEDs. I was able to solder those back on, and the lights appear to be working. On the other 1400, they sheared off one of the little plastic nubs on the light that sticks up, and neither of those lights are working. They look to be wired in series, so the one broken LED is keeping the other from lighting. The little board that holds the lights is epoxied to the bottom of the aluminum plate, and I'm doubting that I will find either the light board or the whole plate assembly. Any assist will be appreciated, one simply cannot have broken LEDs. :banghead:

It occurred to me to jumper across the busted LED in hopes that the other would then light. Would it?

Titanium Dome
08-14-2008, 02:12 PM
Hi rdgrimes. Welcome to Lansing Heritage, AVSer. :)

Did you get a chance to check out the PT800 technical sheet? It shows that the part number is the same for both the wall mount bracket bolts and the pedestal attachment bolts.

902301-012

If that's what you ordered, you should be good. See page 2:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/PT800%20ts.pdf

Titanium Dome
08-14-2008, 02:23 PM
As for the PS1400 issues, I can give you some part numbers. You'll need to contact JBL/Harman to inquire about purchase.

The cover plate on top is part # 336597-001 (held in place with four bolts/screws). There is also a cover plate gasket, part # 336598-001, which you may need if it's missing.

The missing logo plate off the top is part # 336599-001 (fits into cover plate).

The LED assembly is part # 335650-001 (goes under cover plate).

We'd all like to hear how you fare.

rdgrimes
08-14-2008, 02:55 PM
Hi rdgrimes. Welcome to Lansing Heritage, AVSer. :)

Did you get a chance to check out the PT800 technical sheet? It shows that the part number is the same for both the wall mount bracket bolts and the pedestal attachment bolts.

902301-012

If that's what you ordered, you should be good. See page 2:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Technical%20Sheet/PT800%20ts.pdf

Yup, I accidentally ordered the correct screws. the "logo" I ordered has a different number, might be the one on the bottom of the cab. Do you have a link to the spec sheet for the PS1400?

rdgrimes
08-14-2008, 03:37 PM
What are the LEDs on the 1400 supposed to be doing? Mine are red with the switch set to auto, and sound is coming from the 1400 OK.

Titanium Dome
08-14-2008, 10:26 PM
red = standby
green = on
blank = off

Titanium Dome
08-14-2008, 10:29 PM
Truth be told, I don't like the auto setting much. Mine are always on, except when I leave for a few days. They glow green into the night like little pairs of snake eyes.

Don C
08-14-2008, 11:02 PM
Here's a link to the PS1400 service manual from JBL.
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Service%20Manual/ps1400%20sub%20sm.pdf

rdgrimes
08-15-2008, 06:19 AM
red = standby
green = on
blank = off

Hmmpffff, here its blue for standby and red for on. I wonder if I reversed the polarity on the wires.

Titanium Dome
08-15-2008, 07:14 PM
Hmmpffff, here its blue for standby and red for on. I wonder if I reversed the polarity on the wires.

Those are the colors used on the L8400P sub from the Studio L Series, except it's red for standby and blue for on. :spin:

Titanium Dome
08-15-2008, 07:22 PM
I just verified that the HTPS400 sub (THX rated member of the Performance Series) is red in standby and green when on, too.

rdgrimes
08-15-2008, 08:48 PM
Those are the colors used on the L8400P sub from the Studio L Series, except it's red for standby and blue for on. :spin:
Typed blue, meant green. Mine is green when it's in standby and red when it's on. So I must have switched the polarity on the LED.

Any idea what is the power consumption when the 1400 is on with no input?
I emailed Harman about parts but got nothing back yet. I take it nobody around here has a dead 1400 to part out. :(

Titanium Dome
08-15-2008, 08:59 PM
Typed blue, meant green. Mine is green when it's in standby and red when it's on. So I must have switched the polarity on the LED.

Any idea what is the power consumption when the 1400 is on with no input?
I emailed Harman about parts but got nothing back yet. I take it nobody around here has a dead 1400 to part out. :(

Check the service manual Don C linked. I think standby power consumption is in there.

Sorry, but no spare parts here.

rdgrimes
08-15-2008, 09:05 PM
Check the service manual Don C linked. I think standby power consumption is in there.

Sorry, but no spare parts here.

The manual mentions 13-18W, but doesn't state if that is standby or on.

rdgrimes
08-16-2008, 03:57 PM
So how much time do you guys consider necessary for full break-in? I've been looping CDs for most of 2 days, maybe 24 hrs total time. I can hear quite a bit of difference, mainly clarity. But the 1400s also seem to be putting out a bit more bottom end, I feel like I'm close to backing down the LF level a tad now.

Needless to say, I'm loving these things more each hour.

Titanium Dome
08-16-2008, 10:42 PM
:bs:

Here's a little perspective on my personal history with speaker break in and with the Performance Series in particular.

When I got my first "real" speakers in 1970, they were L100s. Before that I'd purchased some discount stuff like Electrophonic and Audiovox, but the JBLs were worlds apart from them. :thmbsup:

Even though I had aspirations of being a knowledgeable audio enthusiast, I had the sophistication of a hard rockin' college musician. :rockon1: So if there were such a thing as break in with new speakers, it was unknown to me and I played them loud and hard from day one. I did not anticipate or listen for any change.

In subsequent years, I've had a lot more speakers, but given the realities of life, most of them were used, remanufactured, or floor demos, so if break in were a reality, it had already been done for better or for worse by others before I got them.

With the SVA 1800s and the L7s, I didn't do anythying special other than be a little more respectful during the first day or two of operation. And I listened more carefully to them. Honestly, it's impossible to say if the sound improved a tad after a few days or, more likely, that my ears adjusted to the new sound. However, any improvement after a so-called break in period was slight and just as likely caused by my subjective response as by any technical cause. :screwy:

Now we come to the Performance Series. The two sets I heard before purchase were not new. They had been played a lot, and loudly as well. At the Chicago trade show, the environment was challenging. At the JBL showroom in Northridge, the environment was quite good.

My home environment is somehwere between the two; hopefully, closer to the JBL listening room than to the trade hall. However, its one advantage is that I'm intimately familiar with it. When the Performance Series came, I kept the L7/L5 set up in the room for a week to see what subjective comparisons I could make.

Before listening to the Performance Series for the first time, I gave myself a good 15 minutes of L Series listening to be sure I had a fix on the sound. Then in a few minutes I switched the connections, fired up the Performances, and...

:wtf:

Tight, nondynamic, strained--what have I done? Did I just waste thousands of dollars?

Well, thank heaven for J. Gordon Holt, whose review I found online as I searched for an explanation. To quote: "The Performance system sounded unpromising when I fired it up—pinched, tizzy, almost shrill—but these shortcomings rapidly diminished with use."

So over the next week I alternated between the Performance Series and the L Series in a number of listening sessions, and darned if the Performances didn't sound much, much better by day two and outstanding (as I remembered them) by day three, until it just wasn't fair to the L Series to keep asking them to compete.

So this post serves as a suggestion/warning to anyone who buys the Performance Series or any of its Ti drivers to give them a little time before judging them. Either the drivers, or your ears, or both might require a little time to adjust.

FWIW.

:D

This is from post #40 of this very thread, and I think gives you one perspective on your inquiry. That was only 1026 posts ago.

rdgrimes
08-18-2008, 11:25 AM
How are you guys running the PS1400 LF settings? Manual says to set LFE at full on, and LF at "0". I have pretty good bass management in my Yamaha 661, so I also have those level settings available. Right now I have the 1400 LFE at one notch under full-on, and the LF at "0". After running auto-setup I re-set the LF at +1 and leave the LFE where it is. I generally listen at moderate volume levels, and a little extra push on the LF sounds best. The Yamaha sends all LF from the "small" speakers via sub, (is set to deliver all LF/LFE to sub only).

Is there any advantage to setting the AVR to deliver LF/LFE to both sub and mains? Conversely, any advantage to setting the mains to "small" and letting the AVR send it all through "sub"? As far as I can see, that would allow me to set the <80Hz level in the AVR as opposed to in the 1400. The LF gain on the 1400 would then only effect the 80-130Hx range, right?

New 200Wx5 amp goes in today, which should have enough poop to handle whatever I send it. But it seems to me there's some logic to not forcing the amp to deal with <80Hz sounds on the mains. That's what the 400W amps in the 1400 are for.

Titanium Dome
08-18-2008, 01:37 PM
My Performance Series set ups:

5.1 music: fronts (two PT800+two PS1400), large; center and surrounds (three PT800), small; LFE xover to sub @60 Hz (one HTPS400).

7.1 HT: fronts, center, sides, surrounds (one PC660 and six PT800), small; LFE to subs as THX standard 80 Hz (two PS1400 and two HTPS400).

rdgrimes
08-18-2008, 01:43 PM
Let me ask this a different way. In terms of the actual load on the amp, isn't the PS1400's 130Hz XO going to have the same effect as using a pre-amp XO of 130Hz?

rdgrimes
08-22-2008, 12:07 PM
You guys using multiple subs, (3+) how are you distributing your LFE signals?

rdgrimes
08-26-2008, 09:35 AM
On my quest for the repair of my PS1400 LEDs, here's what I've learned.

The LED assembly used in the PS1400 appears to have been special made for JBL. The good news is that it was also used in the S120PII sub. The LED itself is an easier thing to find. The part number for the individual LED is L-117EGW and is made by "Kingbright". I'm working on getting some, but it may be easier to buy 1000 than to buy one or 10.

Of interest: You can get the same LED in different colors! Red/Green = L-117EGW, Red/Yellow = L-117EYW, Green/Yellow = L-117GYW. As far as I can tell, they glow one color with forward current and the other color with reverse current.

Titanium Dome
08-26-2008, 10:10 AM
You guys using multiple subs, (3+) how are you distributing your LFE signals?

The HTPS400 allows the signal to be daisy-chained, which makes it quite easy. The PS1400 requires me to split the signal via an RCA Y splitter cable.

rdgrimes
09-13-2008, 03:07 PM
I did find a used S120PII sub and was able to swap the LED board between it and the PS1400 with a little persuasion. So now I have 4 pretty snake eyes glowing at me. :D

I also have a used S120PII with one eye looking for a good home. ;) It's a pretty good sub. Basically, it's a ported version of the L8400P. Or, I'll just add it to the sub collection in the HT room.

rdgrimes
10-06-2008, 11:23 AM
So now I'm swimming in LED's for the PS1400, so if anyone wants one or 2, speak up. Several back-ordered items suddenly turned up so I have a dozen spare individual LEDs and one spare board with the 2 LEDs.

St. Anger
11-16-2008, 07:54 AM
Hi everyone,
I've been reading through this entire thread, it has taken a long time. I am in a situation where I can purchase PS speakers for my eventual HT setup. I am trying to decide the best route to go.
the options that I am toying with:

L&R front: PT800 & PS1400 stacks
C: PC600
L&R rears: PT800 & PS1400 stacks
Sides: PT800 or P520WS

I am concerned on the subwoofer performance, as I have not gained much confidence in reading the thread. Would 4 PS1400's do the trick?

OR

L&R front PT800 & PS1400stacks
C: PC600
L&R rears: PT800
Sides: PT800 or P520WS
Subs: 2 L8400P's

I need to make a decision fairly soon, any help would be appreciated.

Also, has anyone heard the Array 1400's? Would they be better than the PS series for the front L&R?

Hoerninger
11-16-2008, 08:18 AM
Four subs seems to be a good idea, read here:
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

I have heard the Array 1400, I was very pleased.
____________
Peter

rdgrimes
11-16-2008, 08:19 AM
Go with PT800/PS1400 stacks in front, then just use PT800 alone for surrounds. Then add one or 2 additional subs of choice on the sides/rear of the room. The PS1400 has abundant power but does lack a little in the under-30Hz range. However, the PS stacks are more than adequate for music. The Array series is outstanding to be sure, but would not make the best match in a surround setup with the PS.

johnaec
11-16-2008, 09:01 AM
If it were me, I'd go with the standard PS1400's, though it's hard for me to think two in front wouldn't be enough - how loud do you listen?? Also, I think people get carried away with "spec-itis", when the reality of 2 or 3 dB extra here or there probably bears little significance to what you're actually listening to. Like why would you need 130dB capability when you'll probably never push them past 110dB?

The second reason for the PS1400's, (and not something like the array sub), is the fact they are designed to hook directly up with the PT800's. I've got PT800's here, but was never able to track down PS1400's at a price I could afford. So to at least have subs, I picked up a couple L8400P's direct from Harman. They're 12" with a 600 watt amp built in, but the crossovers are set up different than the way the Performance series wants to connect, (the 8400's don't have an "out" for the other speakers) and I've actually resorted to using an external active crossover to do it correctly.

I just think keeping a system that was designed as a whole itself results in a better overall experience, especially when setting up and tuning, though 4 subs might be ovekill. But if you want to spend the extra time to add in non-standard components lke the Array subs, great results can be had, but be prepared to spend the time needed for tweaking...

John ('would still like to get some PS1400's...)

4313B
11-16-2008, 09:07 AM
I just think keeping a system that was designed as a whole itself results in a better overall experience, especially when setting up and tuningMore than likely.

The step up from the Performance Series would probably be the SAM1, SAM2, SAM3 along with the S2S subwoofers. They don't look nearly as nice as the Performance Series.

The Systems (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/the_systems.aspx?Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA)

rdgrimes
11-16-2008, 09:30 AM
I find that the 2 PS1400s in L-R position nearly eliminates standing waves in my 3500CF HT room. However they do not quite get the job done for LFE. Adding a L8400p in the middle of the room made a huge difference for LFE, and the 8400p has much better response at the bottom end. That said, I absolutely would not give up having the PS1400s docked to the PT800s in front, since this creates a 4-way design that is as near to perfect for music as I have ever heard.

I don't think that adding more PS1400s would be my preferred route, since other subs are better suited for pure LFE duty. However, if one needs "full-range" speakers in the surround positions for some reason, docked PS1400-Pt800s are hard to beat. But if you want to rattle the neighbors windows with LFE, a dedicated sub or subs will be the way to go. 2 L8400ps, combined with 2 PS1400s will be more than enough to shake any room under 4000CF. I still consider the L8400p to be one of the most under-rated subs around.

4313B
11-16-2008, 09:37 AM
That said, I absolutely would not give up having the PS1400s docked to the PT800s in front, since this creates a 4-way design that is as near to perfect for music as I have ever heard.Think modern day 250Ti... 14-inch 4-way
I don't think that adding more PS1400s would be my preferred route, since other subs are better suited for pure LFE duty.And Greg has mentioned several times that the PS1400 is a bit too small in volume (2.8 cu ft) to have the same bottom end that the Citation 7.4 (3.4 cu ft or) or L250/250Ti (4.0 cu ft) had; It is designed to look "right" with the PT800 and it does.

jblsound
11-16-2008, 09:44 AM
johnaec,
If you're going with the PS use the PT800 all around, not counting if you want/need to use a PC600 center. With the main L/R stacked to the PS1400.

As for the PT800 surrounds, are you going to wall mount or free stand?
The PT800s work very well as wallmounts. So in that setup you could use any other sub for the third and fourth subs, plus having the flexibility of placing those subs where they'll work best in your room.

As for the Arrays, they would be an upgrade, but a much higher price tag.

St. Anger
11-16-2008, 09:47 AM
Part of the theory for the rear stack with the PT800 & PS1400 was that I don't have a good location for rears, the "stack" would make nice speaker stands. The cost difference is negligible between 2 more PS1400's vs the 2 L8400P's.

What I am not sure about is the performance difference between the PS1400's and the L8400p's.

I currently have 2 L8400p's in along with my L890's and the LC2 center. I think the L8400p's are satisfactory for my current set up.

I at one point in time owned the Infinity Prelude MTS L,C,R and subsequently sold after a few years use when we started having kids. I have been kicking myself since.:banghead: I absolutely loved the Preludes and have not been acoustically satisified since. I am in search of that now.The bass on the Preludes was tight and sounded great. They were a powered sub with a 1000W amp with a sealed enclosure.

jblsound
11-16-2008, 10:08 AM
Or you could get a set of speaker stands for the rear PT800 and use the L8400 subs or your third/fourth subs. As long as you're using subs in identical pairs (2 PS2400/2 L8400) and setup symmetrically, would be best, you're good to go.

In my HT I have a pair of JBL SUB1500 (diy) stacked with my main L/R PT800 and then use an old pair of L55s for subs, that have LE14A woofers, located at the mid-points of the side walls. And that combo works very well.

St. Anger
11-16-2008, 10:16 AM
So it sounds like this option makes the most since?

L & R front: PT800 & PS1400 stacked hooked up as "full range"
C: PC600
Rears: PT800
Sides: P520Ws
Subs: (2) L8400P's

I am finishing the basement and I do not plan on having a dedicated room for HT, rather an area that can be seen from all of the basement. Therefor I am going to have limited wall space at listening level in the rear and sides. The total cubic feet will be around 9700.

Mr. Widget
11-16-2008, 10:47 AM
Also, has anyone heard the Array 1400's? Would they be better than the PS series for the front L&R?Yes... they are fantastic.


The step up from the Performance Series would probably be the SAM1, SAM2, SAM3 along with the S2S subwoofers.This is the route I'd be looking at if I currently had the room for a proper home theater. Since I have them, I'd go with my custom Sub1500 subs instead, but the SAMs are perfect for a full blown high performance home theater... I'd try to use SAM1/2 for the center as well... space depending.


They don't look nearly as nice as the Performance Series.
Certainly no glitter... just performance, unlike the Performance Series which is covered in glitter instead of real wood veneer. ;)


Widget

jblsound
11-16-2008, 10:48 AM
If you don't already have the P520W, I'd use the PT800 all around.
One thing about the PT800, as they have four threaded 1/4 20 holes in the bottom, makes it easy to bolt to speaker stands, instead of just sitting on the stands.

St. Anger
11-16-2008, 11:10 AM
Would you reccommend the Array 1400's for front L&R over the PS stacks knowing that I could not match any other part of the system with the Arrays?

jblsound
11-16-2008, 11:35 AM
For myself, I've only read about the Arrays, on this forum, so I don't have any first hand knowledge of how they sound, compared to the PS. But if I was just doing a 2 channel Array system, then yes.
But a complete Arrays package can be bought form a Synthesis dealer. I've even seen some Array packages online a few months ago, from some dealer in/around Ohio, I think it was, on ebay.

I don't believe in mixing systems to get a MC system. After I finished my LR/HT 11 years ago, I used what I had. A pair of L212 and 3 L55s. The L55s across the front and the L212 for surrounds. Total timbre mismatch when the sound moved from front to back, as the L55 are soft dome 2-ways. although having 3 L55 front was a perfect match.

I then built up the 2.1 L212 to a 7.2 L212 and used for 4 years, before I managed to get 5 PT800. Which I still use the rear L212 pair. But the L212 and the PT800 are a very close match. Both 3-way systems using 1", 4", 8" drivers.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 11:55 AM
So it sounds like this option makes the most since?

L & R front: PT800 & PS1400 stacked hooked up as "full range"
C: PC600
Rears: PT800
Sides: P520Ws
Subs: (2) L8400P's

I am finishing the basement and I do not plan on having a dedicated room for HT, rather an area that can be seen from all of the basement. Therefor I am going to have limited wall space at listening level in the rear and sides. The total cubic feet will be around 9700.

Interesting concept, and I'll give you my thoughts.

As noted numerous times, I have three Performance Series set ups: 7.1, 5.1, and 2.1 versions. (Sorry to bore everyone with repeat info.)

The 7.1 HT uses six PT800s, a PC600, two PS1400s, and two HTPS400s. It's in a dedicated, windowless 4,592 cubic ft. room with solid walls all 'round.

The 5.1 MCH uses five PT800s, two PS1400s (stacked), and one HTPS400. It's in an approximately 8,000 cubic ft. living space, with variations in ceiling height, modest changes in floor level and no walls except on the perimeter.

The 5.1 2CH uses two PT800s and one L8400P. It's in dedicated music room of 2,352 cubic feet with three other stereo pairs of JBLS and a 5.1 surround system.

All of the systems sound great, but there are key differences. The HT 7.1 system is clearly the most dynamic and it renders soundtrakcs with authority. For music, it needs to be dialed back, and it's never as spacious and natural as the main floor system simply because of less space and more walls giving off early reflections. Deadening early reflections with room treatments helps, but room treatments do not create more space.

The most natural, musical, and spacious sound comes from the 5.1 music system. Due to the absences of any real early reflections, the Ti drivers can really open up. The combination of varying floor levels, ceiling heights, and other factors such as furniture, floor covering, window coverings, etc., make it a wonderful location for music, especially well-wrought surround. The use of PT800s all around helps, too. As part of a stack, the PS1400s are running in a full range, four-way system, and the single HTPS400 provides more than enough .1 oomph.

The stereo set up with the L8400P works very well, though two subs might work better. The sub's 12" driver is good, but not as good as the LE120H-1 in the L7s or the 2214H in the XPL200s that it shares space with in the music room. So the 2.1 system beats the L7 and XPL200 pairs in upper bass, MF, and HF, but it's only adequate in the LF.

One thing I don't see on your shopping list is the HTPS400 THX sub. It's far better than the L8400P. If you can get it at a good price, it's the better buy for sure. It will be a better support at the low end for PT800/PS1400 stacks, and with its Aluminum cone and 1000W BASH amp, it will never run out of muscle, unless you're an extreme abuser. In a space as large as yours, I'd get at least two and place them according to the Harman multisubs white paper.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 11:57 AM
Would you reccommend the Array 1400's for front L&R over the PS stacks knowing that I could not match any other part of the system with the Arrays?

No, that would be a mistake. If you could get the whole set as Arrays, I'd say yes.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 12:00 PM
Certainly no glitter... just performance, unlike the Performance Series which is covered in glitter instead of real wood veneer. ;)


Widget

Why don't you just marry a tree? :bouncy:

Then you would never be without the excellent quality of life that real wood veneer brings to everything. You could shave a little off her every day. :p

Hey, baby, come here for a minute...

St. Anger
11-16-2008, 12:31 PM
If were to go with the following system:
L&R main: PT800 & PS1400 stacked (full range)
C: PC 600
Rears & sides: (4) PT800's
Subs: 2 L8400P's

What kind of power is needed?

Currently I have an h/K AVR745, 85w/ch. I'll probably use as the pre if I get an amp.

I have been looking at Audiogon and spotted a B&K 200.7 amp 200w x 7 for $1400, decent deal.

Or could I use a 125w x 7 amp, perhaps the JBL AvA7/lexicon GX7 if the price was similar?

rdgrimes
11-16-2008, 12:34 PM
So it sounds like this option makes the most since?

L & R front: PT800 & PS1400 stacked hooked up as "full range"
C: PC600
Rears: PT800
Sides: P520Ws
Subs: (2) L8400P's

I am finishing the basement and I do not plan on having a dedicated room for HT, rather an area that can be seen from all of the basement. Therefor I am going to have limited wall space at listening level in the rear and sides. The total cubic feet will be around 9700.

The P520W on the sides is your real weak point. The side surrounds carry the bulk of the surround load and need to be matched to the fronts. Only PT800 on the sides will do that. Unless you can't live without dipoles, skip those and make it a matched system.


The cost difference is negligible between 2 more PS1400's vs the 2 L8400P's
Really? I have to ask where you are getting PS1400s, since the L8400p is widely available at $300-500. But since you already have 2 L8400p, you are all set in the sub department. Keep those and run them with the PS system and then decide later if you want more.

rdgrimes
11-16-2008, 12:37 PM
If were to go with the following system:
L&R main: PT800 & PS1400 stacked (full range)
C: PC 600
Rears & sides: (4) PT800's
Subs: 2 L8400P's

What kind of power is needed?

Currently I have an h/K AVR745, 85w/ch. I'll probably use as the pre if I get an amp.

I have been looking at Audiogon and spotted a B&K 200.7 amp 200w x 7 for $1400, decent deal.

Or could I use a 125w x 7 amp, perhaps the JBL AvA7/lexicon GX7 if the price was similar?

You cannot over-power this setup. The more you can swing the happier you will be. 200WPC minimum.

jblsound
11-16-2008, 12:39 PM
Certainly no glitter... just performance, unlike the Performance Series which is covered in glitter instead of real wood veneer. ;)


Widget
I guess the PS vinyl would be a step up from the old L212 black painted PB boxes.:D

But then the L212 wrap-around grilles were nice. Wish I could get some of that grille material, but none to be had.:(



As noted numerous times, I have three Performance Series set ups: 7.1, 5.1, and 2.1 versions. (Sorry to bore everyone with repeat info.)

The 7.1 HT uses six PT800s, a PC600, two PS1400s, and two HTPS400s. It's in a dedicated, windowless 4,592 cubic ft. room with solid walls all 'round.



I think you should sell off all your PT800s for cheap and buy some Salk SongTowers, you know you want them:), so you can better fit into the crowd over at AVS.:barf:

jblsound
11-16-2008, 01:11 PM
If were to go with the following system:
L&R main: PT800 & PS1400 stacked (full range)
C: PC 600
Rears & sides: (4) PT800's
Subs: 2 L8400P's

What kind of power is needed?
The PT800 are rated for 250w, so any quality amp of 200w ~ 400w is good, especially considering the space in your basement.
Make no mistake about how much sound will radiate from those six 8" mid-bass drivers, and the dual 6" center.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 01:15 PM
I think you should sell off all your PT800s for cheap and buy some Salk SongTowers, you know you want them:), so you can better fit into the crowd over at AVS.:barf:

Actually those Salk Song Towers have very fine cabinets with custom, real wood veneer finishes. However, the sound is not up to the look.

To me the Performance Series looks just fine, and I'm not so enamored of wood that I'd willingly pay extra for it. The finishes on the Array Series look very nice--almost as nice as the Songs--but if JBL made a black vinyl version that was $500 less, that's what I'd buy.

jblsound
11-16-2008, 01:23 PM
Actually those Salk Song Towers have very fine cabinets with custom, real wood veneer finishes. However, the sound is not up to the look.

I dare you to say that over at AVS on the SST thread.:applaud:



To me the Performance Series looks just fine, and I'm not so enamored of wood that I'd willingly pay extra for it. The finishes on the Array Series look very nice--almost as nice as the Songs--but if JBL made a black vinyl version that was $500 less, that's what I'd buy.


I like the look of the PS, very good vinyl covering. But I could always do like my custom L212 and veneer 'em with Ash, cherry, or whatever.

And if I was buying speakers and had it down to two systems @ same price, one w/wood cab and one vinyl and I thought the vinyl model had a better sound I'd get it. On the other hand, if they both were the same as far as sound @ same price, then I'd get the wood model.

Don C
11-16-2008, 02:36 PM
I've been wondering about how to improve the PS1400s. The bass that I'm getting from them does not seem to be quite as good as that of the 240Ti that I used to have. I don't think that they are a significant upgrade from my XPL200s either. I was thinking of starting by taking out all of the electronics and re-tuning the box to match with the larger space inside. What do you guys think of that idea.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 02:42 PM
What would you do with the electronics? Put them in a self-contained enclosure?

Don C
11-16-2008, 03:18 PM
What would you do with the electronics? Put them in a self-contained enclosure?
Throw them in the trash. I have an extra power amp here that would work nicely. And a few active crossovers to play with.

Titanium Dome
11-16-2008, 04:15 PM
Throw them in the trash. I have an extra power amp here that would work nicely. And a few active crossovers to play with.

I hope you're kidding, but if not, you have a PM.

johnaec
11-16-2008, 04:40 PM
Throw them in the trash. I have an extra power amp here that would work nicely. And a few active crossovers to play with.Don - at least let me try them first! Maybe we can work something out? I'd at least like to hear what they sound like with my system before you do anything to them, out of curiosity.

John

Robh3606
11-16-2008, 05:06 PM
I've been wondering about how to improve the PS1400s. The bass that I'm getting from them does not seem to be quite as good as that of the 240Ti that I used to have. I don't think that they are a significant upgrade from my XPL200s either.

Put them in larger boxes. I have a pair in 4 cubic ft. and they work just fine. Run them in a box program to see what they can do in larger volumes.

Rob:)

Mr. Widget
11-16-2008, 09:21 PM
--but if JBL made a black vinyl version that was $500 less, that's what I'd buy. Ask and you shall receive. :)

A pair of SAM1/2 with passive networks retail for $9K That is quite a saving over the $11K+ for a pair of Array 1400s.


Widget

rdgrimes
11-16-2008, 10:30 PM
I've been wondering about how to improve the PS1400s. The bass that I'm getting from them does not seem to be quite as good as that of the 240Ti that I used to have. I don't think that they are a significant upgrade from my XPL200s either. I was thinking of starting by taking out all of the electronics and re-tuning the box to match with the larger space inside. What do you guys think of that idea.
Stop looking at them as "subs". They are designed to be mated to a PT800, sub functions are secondary. If you want a real sub, build or buy a real sub. Changing the PS1400 from it's original design will alter the relationship with the PT800 and then you don't have a PS system any more.

jblsound
11-17-2008, 08:07 AM
Stop looking at them as "subs". They are designed to be mated to a PT800, sub functions are secondary. If you want a real sub, build or buy a real sub. Changing the PS1400 from it's original design will alter the relationship with the PT800 and then you don't have a PS system any more.

Just about all JBLs have been designed with some kind of compromise, if for no other reason than the marketing dept. having its say. And taking any JBL system and reworking it can provide improved performance.

4313B has stated, "And Greg has mentioned several times that the PS1400 is a bit too small in volume (2.8 cu ft) to have the same bottom end that the Citation 7.4 (3.4 cu ft or) or L250/250Ti (4.0 cu ft) had; It is designed to look "right" with the PT800 and it does".

So that means the PS1400 was designed more for looks than total performance, not counting how it mates with the 908 at the top end. But putting it into a bigger box and changing the tuning in no way lessens the overall sound, just the opposite, it would make it better.

Other changes that could be made is building a 250Ti type of box for the entire system to be housed, or building a C-C networks. The 250 type boxes would make it more high end in apprearance and the C-C network would make it more high end in performance.

At present JBL reserves the C-C networks for the K2 and Everest models, which I would consider to be no compromise systems, for many reasons.

Robh3606
11-17-2008, 08:20 AM
I've been wondering about how to improve the PS1400s. The bass that I'm getting from them does not seem to be quite as good as that of the 240Ti that I used to have. I don't think that they are a significant upgrade from my XPL200s either.

Back to this. If you look at the 2214, 128H and the Le14H-3 they are all competent woofers. Runing them in the same volumes they are really close so if you want improvement below 30Hz either you get them into a bigger box or you look for a different woofer. Substituting won't do it. As a matter of fact the 128H and Le14 have the edge on a 2214 in the same volume and tunning. Here they are in 3.5 cubic ft tuned to 29Hz.

Rob:)

jblsound
11-17-2008, 09:08 AM
Come to think of it, which member was going to build 250Ti type boxes for the PS? And did you do it?

rdgrimes
11-17-2008, 09:09 AM
So that means the PS1400 was designed more for looks than total performance, not counting how it mates with the 908 at the top end. But putting it into a bigger box and changing the tuning in no way lessens the overall sound, just the opposite, it would make it better.

Not at all. What it "means" is that the PS1400 is designed to work with the PT800. That can mean looks AND it can mean a lot of other things. One needs only to peruse ebay and CL to see the unfortunate results of people trying to "improve" the performance of JBL speakers only to wind up with a worthless speaker. So if you want a better "sub", build or buy a better sub. And sell me your PS1400s in original condition.

jblsound
11-17-2008, 09:27 AM
Not at all. What it "means" is that the PS1400 is designed to work with the PT800. That can mean looks AND it can mean a lot of other things. One needs only to peruse ebay and CL to see the unfortunate results of people trying to "improve" the performance of JBL speakers only to wind up with a worthless speaker. So if you want a better "sub", build or buy a better sub. And sell me your PS1400s in original condition.
I don't have any PS1400, never bought any, or a PC600, for that matter. I use a pair of diy SUB1500s instead, with the PT800s mounted on top. And I'm not the only member of this forum to do just that.
Mike Bake has the same setup, which the SUB1500 boxes were built by 4313B, if I remember right.

And yes, that are many diy projects that show up on ebay and elsewhere that are junk, but that in no way means a JBL design can not be improved on.
I've done it with 5 L212, three of which the only upgrade was by-pass XOs, which make them more dynamic, obviously better for movies.

And one pair that I built mirror imaged boxes for, plus C-C networks for them. And they are a total improvement to the originals. The mirror imaged boxes provide a better soundstage and the C-C networks gives me the same quality level networks used in the K2 and Everest.

4313B
11-17-2008, 09:31 AM
I built the SUB1500 boxes to look like the PS1400 boxes.

Titanium Dome provided all the physical measurements.

jblsound
11-17-2008, 10:06 AM
I built the SUB1500 boxes to look like the PS1400 boxes.

And very nice looking boxes they are, as I remember the pics MB uplinked.

Although the ones I built resemble the L212 boxes, as that is what I was using in the HT at the time. And had to do a different mounting setup, as I didn't have the brackets that the PS has.

Titanium Dome
11-20-2008, 09:34 PM
I built the SUB1500 boxes to look like the PS1400 boxes.

Titanium Dome provided all the physical measurements.

I still have those drawings if anyone wants them.

I had a thought to remove the plate amp, cut the back off the PS1400 enclosure and extend it by an inch or so. This would increase the internal volume without widening the front elevation of the unit. Then put the back and the plate amp on the extension.

But, I think about a lot of things.

It'd be hard to "match" the black ash vinyl.

jblsound
11-21-2008, 08:52 AM
I still have those drawings if anyone wants them.

I had a thought to remove the plate amp, cut the back off the PS1400 enclosure and extend it by an inch or so. This would increase the internal volume without widening the front elevation of the unit. Then put the back and the plate amp on the extension.

But, I think about a lot of things.

It'd be hard to "match" the black ash vinyl.
Being it would be at the back, might be better to use something like clear 1"x 2" mounted on edge, with the face lined up with the edge of the back champer of the box and spray painted with gloss black.

4313B
11-21-2008, 10:29 AM
It would be easier and far less destructive to just build new boxes. You need a 22-1/2° Tongue & Groove Router Bit Set which Rockler used to carry but I can't find anymore.

LE14H/LE14H-1/LE14H-3 + 3.5 to 4.0 cu ft + 30 Hz to 28 Hz fb = splendid bass response

And to all the whiners that need flat response to 25 Hz instead - Whatever! :rotfl:

jblsound
11-21-2008, 10:50 AM
My thought was if one removed the plate amp and made a 1x2, or 1x3 frame, with the narrow edges facing front to back, then just fasten the edge of the frame to the back face of the box, around the opening. Then the plate amp screwed to the frame.

That would be easier than making all those 22.5* angles. But I've built similar boxes and other stuff, using a groove and spline method, using an Intrajig router fence system.

4313B
11-21-2008, 10:52 AM
Oh, so you guys are just talking about freeing up some volume by pulling out the plate amp? I have no idea what kind of volume that displaces. I'd have to look and see if that thing had any EQ built in. If it is like the 1500 Array then it does. If it doesn't then you could just use any amp you want externally.

jblsound
11-21-2008, 11:18 AM
I think that's what TiDome was thinking, being I don't have any PS1400s, I was just offering an easy solution.

When I built my SUB1500 boxes and didn't know if I was going to go with 2.5 sealed or 4.0 ported. So I built 8" deep, 4 sided extentions that interconnected with the back of the 2.5 cuft box. Which was two layers of 5/8" mdf glued together, for the top, bottom and sides with all offset edges, which would have been the same as using 1 1/4" mdf with rabbited edges. So all the pieces locked together, providing a lot more gluing surfaces.
The baffles are a total of 1 3/4" thick.

Titanium Dome
11-21-2008, 02:07 PM
I had a thought to remove the plate amp, cut the back off the PS1400 enclosure and extend it by an inch or so. This would increase the internal volume without widening the front elevation of the unit. Then put the back and the plate amp on the extension.

But, I think about a lot of things.


It would be easier and far less destructive to just build new boxes.

Yeah, really, one FU and I'd have to build new boxes anyway. That's why I do a lot of thinking and not much doing: usually my last thought is, Naw, you're just going to F it U. ;)

jblsound
11-21-2008, 02:52 PM
If the only thing you would doing is removing the plate amp to gain its displacement, and not cutting the back out. Then its just a matter of building a frame to fit around that opening, with the frame having the same depth as the amp. And with the amp screwed to the frame there would be the entire volume of the box, w/o the amp taking up any space.

Now if you wanted to actually add to the total size of the box, then that's a bit more work, but certainly doable.

JBLnsince1959
12-25-2008, 02:40 PM
Come to think of it, which member was going to build 250Ti type boxes for the PS? And did you do it?

You may mean me.. I've got some 250 enclosures that I was going to put the tranducers from the PS Stack into. Due to personal matters I've done almost nothing with JBL for the last year and half or more, nor i have I been on the forum much..

thread where we discussed this is...

http://audioheritage.csdco.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12988

I'm hoping that 2009 will be the year I'll get it done. Not sure if another member was going to do the same thing. However, just to place the PS stuff into the 250 enclosure without heavy mods ( enclosure, crossovers) would most likely produce less than satisfactory results

Titanium Dome
12-25-2008, 05:49 PM
As I recall, you don't just have "some" 250 enclosures; you have the XPL250 enclosures, n'est-ce pas?

JBLnsince1959
12-26-2008, 08:11 AM
As I recall, you don't just have "some" 250 enclosures; you have the XPL250 enclosures, n'est-ce pas?

Oui, exactement mon ami!:bouncy:

BTW.. Just a quick note to everyone, Hope you all are having a great Holiday season. I've really missed you guys..:wave:

Of course there is some debate ( or questions) as to their origins and whether or not the signature labels are really GT's. 4313B( Hey guy hope all is well) says there's only one XPL250 prototype enclosure and it's in GT's basement. With this I would not argue ( foolish to mess with the Gods).

But the fit, finish and over all design screams "made at JBL". IF they were made at JBL they would most likely be the first "Hey, let's get some numbers box". I'm sure the first thing they would do is to use what they had ( 250 enclosure), do some raw mods and then from the numbers design a true XPL250 prototype enclosure. Confirmation would be nice.

anyway, it doesn't really matter because they are exactly what I need and once I've done my "hack job" on them there will be no more "XPL250" enclosure to worry about.:eek:

take care

mikebake
12-26-2008, 08:26 AM
And very nice looking boxes they are, as I remember the pics MB uplinked.


http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=126988&postcount=748

JBLnsince1959
12-26-2008, 02:35 PM
You know Mike, I didn't remeber seeing those before and went back to read the posts today, only to remember.. Damn I had seen those post and pictures before.. hell I even posted about them... Ok senior moment ( damn scary really)

I'll say it again, the man did great work with those

mikebake
12-26-2008, 02:56 PM
You know Mike, I didn't remeber seeing those before and went back to read the posts today, only to remember.. Damn I had seen those post and pictures before.. hell I even posted about them... Ok senior moment ( damn scary really)

I'll say it again, the man did great work with those
Yes he did.
I didn't have the system hooked up for probably about the last 18 months, and I never really did spend much time with them even initially. I hooked it back up two weeks ago.
Watched The Dark Knight yesterday on it; it's a nice smooth sounding system, and when the sub1500's are told to get busy, they really put it out. The PT800's are just nice and smooth all the time. I need to listen to these more.

rdgrimes
02-07-2009, 07:21 AM
Is there a technical drawing or schematic of the PC600 anywhere? I'm looking for hole sizes and bolt patterns on the baffle.

Titanium Dome
02-07-2009, 01:07 PM
Technically speaking, there are no bolt holes on the PC600. They use those hex head screws to attach the drivers, so the placement of any mounting holes coincides with where they drill the screws in. You could easily drill new holes, even where the screws went in originally and put T-nuts or whatever in.

Since I'm taking more pictures for my "sell down" thread, I'll do a full view from the front and take some quick measurements. I'll post the measurements here.

rdgrimes
02-07-2009, 01:32 PM
I'm a little surprised that on a "$1000" speaker they didn't use t-nuts and machine screws. They used t-nuts on the PT800 base mounts, I guess they needed to save that $.063 and use screws instead.

Titanium Dome
02-07-2009, 01:45 PM
Okay, since the 906Ti and 904Ti are both circles, I'll use one diagram to provide both sets of dimensions. I'm sure you can figure it out.

As for the TM025/EOS Waveguide cutout, it's too much trouble, so I'll give you basic dimensions. The oval flange for the EOS Waveguide is 4 3/4'" x 3 3/4", and the tweeter cut out is 2" high and 2 13/16" wide.

rdgrimes
03-11-2009, 07:53 PM
Was anyone else watching this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350174121995

I was leery of the seller, a pawn shop in Reno who didn't answer any questions. It sold for more than I expected for having no hardware. Didn't expect to see one all alone.

80sKid
03-20-2009, 03:09 AM
There's currently some activity on used PT800s.

Of course it's while I have no ability to purchase them...

First is this chap selling a pair of 800s for $1300 on craigslist in Montreal...

http://montreal.pt.craigslist.ca/ele/1064412111.html

Then there's a seller called jblsound selling two sets of five PT800s on ebay...

(yes, that's right, he has 2 sets)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=280324566676

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=280322597937

I do hope to get a full performance series setup someday. But this seller only has a feedback rating of 10, so I would be skeptical even if I was ready to buy.

Titanium Dome
03-20-2009, 10:43 AM
JBLSound is a member here and other sites I visit, and he's selling three PT800s for $1300, even though the picture shows five.

I would buy from him in a minute, but I already have more PT800s than I need. No need to worry about the 10 feedback. He'll deliver the products in good condition.

rdgrimes
03-20-2009, 11:25 AM
JBLSound is a member here and other sites I visit, and he's selling three PT800s for $1300, even though the picture shows five.

I would buy from him in a minute, but I already have more PT800s than I need. No need to worry about the 10 feedback. He'll deliver the products in good condition.
He's gone over to the dark side, eBay and PayPal!!!!

Actually he has them listed now as a set of 3 and a separate listing for a pair.


Could use more pictures and descriptions though. ;)

80sKid
03-21-2009, 07:06 AM
I'm sure he's an upstanding forum member, but those pictures are highly misleading.

Showing a quantity in pictures that doesn't match the description is just bad form, IMO.

jblsound
03-21-2009, 07:20 AM
He's gone over to the dark side, eBay and PayPal!!!!

Actually he has them listed now as a set of 3 and a separate listing for a pair.


Could use more pictures and descriptions though. ;)
I couldn't access paypal for about 6 months, guess it had something to do with the firewall as the new firewall brought it back.



Showing a quantity in pictures that doesn't match the description is just bad form, IMO

It does help if you can read, as I state its either a pair or three in the two auctions. I just didn't bother to take new pics.

80sKid
03-22-2009, 10:49 AM
I couldn't access paypal for about 6 months, guess it had something to do with the firewall as the new firewall brought it back.


It does help if you can read, as I state its either a pair or three in the two auctions. I just didn't bother to take new pics.

Any firewall that impedes your ability to connect to a web site with a secure https connection is not a very good firewall, or has been misconfigured. PayPal's web site may be a piece of crap, but it's not so bad that it has an inherent problem with firewalls, to my knowledge.

Regarding the auction pictures, you may light of the situation and indicate you think I can't read. As I said in my postings, many potential buyers will think what I did when only glancing at the auction -- that 5 speakers are on offer (as one auction).

I'm quite sure that pictures which show a different quantity than is mentioned in the description is frowned upon on ebay. If you don't want to take pictures again, then crop the photo(s). Even someone "who can't read" can handle that, so I'm sure you can.

St. Anger
04-07-2009, 04:31 PM
Does anybody know of a good stable speaker stand for the PT800 to be used in a rear surround application? I need to get a stand that will put the bottom of the speaker about 20" off the floor.

jblsound
04-07-2009, 05:11 PM
Does anybody know of a good stable speaker stand for the PT800 to be used in a rear surround application? I need to get a stand that will put the bottom of the speaker about 20" off the floor.

20" off the floor isn't going to do much good, unless you're sitting on the floor. The bottom should be about 44" so you have a direct line of sight over chairs.

Any stand that can be filled with sand will work, there are many on Amazon.

80sKid
04-08-2009, 02:33 AM
20" off the floor isn't going to do much good, unless you're sitting on the floor. The bottom should be about 44" so you have a direct line of sight over chairs.

True, ideally surround speakers should be well above ear level (but with tweeter axis aimed at ear height of primary listening area).

But, aesthetically, speakers positioned high are not for everyone.

rdgrimes
04-08-2009, 06:40 AM
True, ideally surround speakers should be well above ear level (but with tweeter axis aimed at ear height of primary listening area).

But, aesthetically, speakers positioned high are not for everyone.

Actually, ear-level is the best height for the surrounds, or the same height as the fronts. This assumes no obstructions. A 20" stand will nearly accomplish that. With the removable steel plate in the bottom, the PT800 can easily be secured to almost any stand although wall mounting is far more secure.

MikeBrewster77
04-08-2009, 07:13 AM
There seems to be varying opinions on this, and it may have to do with if you're trying to optimize your surround placement for movies or music.

For example, Dolby recommends the placement of the surrounds above ear level, while the mains follow convention with the tweeters at ear level:

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/roomlayout.html

Best,
- Mike

rdgrimes
04-08-2009, 07:28 AM
There seems to be varying opinions on this, and it may have to do with if you're trying to optimize your surround placement for movies or music.

For example, Dolby recommends the placement of the surrounds above ear level, while the mains follow convention with the tweeters at ear level:

Best,
- Mike
Granted there are many differing ideas about placement. I base mine on my own experience. Currently I use PS1400/PT800 stacks for surrounds and the height seems perfect for both music and movies. With the drivers at ear level, I notice a much better sound stage that flows smoother from back to front. Surround FX in movies also seem more realistic. It's an effect that I didn't expect to experience, but it's enough improved that I won't ever place surrounds up high again.

MikeBrewster77
04-08-2009, 07:32 AM
Granted there are many differing ideas about placement. I base mine on my own experience.

And that's likely the best answer anyone could give. Experiment with the placement of your particular speakers, in your particular listening area, with your particular gear, and your particular preferences :blah: and then you'll have the "ideal" placement for you ;)


For what it's worth (and I only have one surround sound set up in my home - I'm still a stereo guy at heart) I have all speakers placed at ear level in listening (seated) position as well.

jblsound
04-08-2009, 09:07 AM
But, aesthetically, speakers positioned high are not for everyone.

Everything comes into play when considering speaker placement, the speaker size, the room size, ceiling height, various wall openings. And its subjective as to what is considered high.

For me I don't like speakers near the ceilings, and for speakers the size of PT800, L212 having the surrounds so the bottom of the speakers are at the elevation of top of seat backs seem best. That puts the tops around 5.5ft above the floor.
One thing I really don't like for surrounds is having them right next to the seating. I was in a HT shop room a couple of years ago, and the room was short and the back wall was shorter than the front, due to an equipment closet in one corner. Those little Orb speakers right next to the seating were just plain irratating.

In this room, I have a pair of PT800s mounted just above a wainscot, so sitting in this chair, the midrange is about ear level, which also good when in the hip high waterbed.

Titanium Dome
04-08-2009, 10:34 AM
When I had two Performance Series sets up and running, the music only 5.1 system was PT800s all around and all at the same height. It sounded excellent on multichannel music, mixed as music. This included the sometimes denigrated DTS surround recordings, the Monster master recordings, AIX DVD-A discrete recordings, SACD, etc.

In the 7.1 HT, the fronts were PT800s and a PC600, all at (or near) ear level, but the PT800 surrounds were well above ear level as recommended. The different mixing techniques used on movies made this arrangement more satisfactory and replicated the cinema experience more faithfully. (I've never seen a commercial theater where the surrounds were at ear level.)

All of this is quite subjective to the desires (and prejudices) of the user, but, truly, experimentation is the key. Merely putting them where one "thinks" they'll sound the best is a weak and miserable compromise.

Don't forget to treat the room.

rdgrimes
04-08-2009, 11:40 AM
In the 7.1 HT, the fronts were PT800s and a PC600, all at (or near) ear level, but the PT800 surrounds were well above ear level as recommended. The different mixing techniques used on movies made this arrangement more satisfactory and replicated the cinema experience more faithfully. (I've never seen a commercial theater where the surrounds were at ear level.)


FWIW, I've never seen a commercial theater where much of anything was done with optimal sound imaging in mind. ;) Certainly never heard anything I wanted to copy.

Movie audio varies a lot from one to the next. But I find that as often as not, the intent is to make surround sounds seem to come from behind, or to the side. (not above) I find the effect more convincing with the drivers at ear level, and don't see any real difference between music and movies in that regard. It's a difference I was not expecting to find, and discovered more or less by accident when swapping around different speakers. Now I'm a believer. Maybe it's more my room making the difference, but I'd highly recommend to anyone to try it.

Titanium Dome
04-08-2009, 11:59 AM
FWIW, I've never seen a commercial theater where much of anything was done with optimal sound imaging in mind. ;) Certainly never heard anything I wanted to copy.


Then you've never been to a good theater. I'm sure there must be one somewhere in ABQ. Maybe not. :dont-know

If not, then you can go to Great Britain and have 4645 show you, or the next time you're in LA, you can go to one here. :D

rdgrimes
04-08-2009, 12:05 PM
or the next time you're in LA, you can go to one here. :D
Last I heard, that theater was still under construction. :)

jblsound
04-08-2009, 12:27 PM
When I had two Performance Series sets up and running, the music only 5.1 system was PT800s all around and all at the same height. It sounded excellent on multichannel music, mixed as music. This included the sometimes denigrated DTS surround recordings, the Monster master recordings, AIX DVD-A discrete recordings, SACD, etc.

In the 7.1 HT, the fronts were PT800s and a PC600, all at (or near) ear level, but the PT800 surrounds were well above ear level as recommended. The different mixing techniques used on movies made this arrangement more satisfactory and replicated the cinema experience more faithfully. (I've never seen a commercial theater where the surrounds were at ear level.)

All of this is quite subjective to the desires (and prejudices) of the user, but, truly, experimentation is the key. Merely putting them where one "thinks" they'll sound the best is a weak and miserable compromise.

Don't forget to treat the room.
Ya, its all trial and error, to a certain extent. But I find that with a bit of prior thought to the intended use and room at hand, one can get damn close the first time out of the shoot.
Of coarse, using a system for both MC music and HT one needs to make a bit of a compromise, to somewhere between the two systems you have/had. As for the surround placement to have them not too high or too low so they work well for both.

St. Anger
04-08-2009, 08:40 PM
Hello all,

I originally posted back in November when I was contemplating what to purchase for my system, and with the advice of the forum I went with a complete 7.1 Performance Series system. I have since been finishing the basement and finally openend the boxes and set the system last Saturday with the 5.1 portion.:applaud: BTW, all of the speakers and amplifier sat in the their boxes since Dec 1st waiting for last Saturday.

My set up, like most, is not optimal. I have the PT800/PS1400 stacks (fullrange) for fronts, the PC 600 center wall mounted ~ 24" off the floor, two L8400P's in front. The PT800 side surrounds are mounted on half walls with the tops at ~ 40", these are mounted in front of a large "V" shaped couch. The rear suurounds in question need to be mounted on stands at some height "x" behind said couch. The top of the couch is ~ 39". My thought with 20" stands was that they would get the midrange above the couch.

I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old to keep in mind, the higher the speaker, the less stable.

Long story short, I need to get the rear channels mounted so I can calibrate the system, I was hoping that someone may have a reccommendation of a very stable stand that they had used for these precarious speakers.

rdgrimes
04-08-2009, 09:54 PM
I have a 5 year old and a 2 year old to keep in mind, the higher the speaker, the less stable.

Long story short, I need to get the rear channels mounted so I can calibrate the system, I was hoping that someone may have a reccommendation of a very stable stand that they had used for these precarious speakers.

Well at least they won't have dust caps to push in. ;)

There really are no stands that are toddler-proof. No chance of a wall mount?
You can remove the bottom plate from the PT800 and bolt it to almost anything, then bolt the PT800 back to the plate. What about some kind of tables?

80sKid
04-09-2009, 02:26 AM
Yes, everyone should experiment with what works best for their space, equipment and taste.

However, the general recommendation for surround speaker positioning is elevated. In my personal work on improving the surround sound systems of my friends and clients, moving the surround speakers higher up has always resulted in a more satisfactory sensation of being enveloped by the surround ambience.

I see three important reasons for this:

First, a speaker at a higher position is able to provide a wider spread of radiated sound, due to the lack of obstructions (furniture and lamp fixtures).

Second, surround reproduction is ideally as diffuse as possible as possible (for movie reproduction, less so for music concerts). A monopole speaker positioned against a wide, flat area will have closer to an infinite baffle effect -- providing a wider and more even dispersion across the listening area). In most homes, walls are their flattest at greater heights (because there are no longer cabinets up against the wall, or picture frames, or wall-mounted light fixtures, etc.)

The third reason is perhaps most important: Human bodies. The head of each person in the room can potentially block the primary sound path of a surround speaker to another person in the room.

Titanium Dome
04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
Those are three very good points, and ones I agree with. I think the Performance Series was developed with at least some of this in mind. One need look no further than the Synthesis® Four system to see why I write that.

Still, for the music-only system I deviated with good results. However, not many people have a dedicated music-only multichannel system. I've found that in the home cinema I rarely listen to music, so I enjoy the improved spatial characteristics of properly elevated surrounds, and so do my guests, wherever they may be seated. :)

Hoerninger
04-09-2009, 12:11 PM
I am not fixed to a certain setup although I use a surround system only for music. I had for example pleasing results with a experimantal semicircle arrangement.
TELARC wrote (Never Ending Waltz, 2006):

Multi-channel surround sound for audio playback for the home is a relatively new concept, and there are many variations as to how the systems can be set up. This disc will play in any surround configuration, but was designed for optimal performance on a system that utilizes at least five full-range and preferably equal speakers ... .There are mix components that require the presence of all five main speakers. A subwoofer is also recommended. TELARC wrote in another inlet ("1812", 2001):

If you are using five full-range loudspeakers, it is recommended that Bass Management be disabled and set the subwoofer level and response to best suit your listening room.
In some cases, neither the center nor the ".1" channels are used. The selection of the number of channels to be employed in a recording, whether it be 4, 5 or 5.1 (6), is determined by the needs of the music, and the creative decisions of the artist and / or recording team. ...
This recording will employ a HEIGHT channel on the disk channel formerly used by the LFE (.1) channel ... optional... .
To use the height channel of this recording, set your receiver /premplifier Bass Management to derive the subwoofer signal (LFE or ".1") from the main audio channels rather than from the LFE track of the disk. ... The LFE output from the disk player itself will then be connected to a independend single channel amplifier or directly to a self-amplified speaker(s). My conclusion from all this is to use for music a system with five equal speakers in ear height.
____________
Peter

80sKid
04-10-2009, 03:25 PM
...
My conclusion from all this is to use for music a system with five equal speakers in ear height...

...When listening to a Telarc recording.

Because by no means do Telarc's guidelines apply to the recordings of other record labels.

rdgrimes
04-10-2009, 03:37 PM
...When listening to a Telarc recording.

Because by no means do Telarc's guidelines apply to the recordings of other record labels.
I think it goes without saying that every studio, (indeed every mastering session), does things differently.

Titanium Dome
04-10-2009, 04:06 PM
I think it goes without saying that every studio, (indeed every mastering session), does things differently.

Not to mention every performance... :p


Where's the CONSISTENCY?

Hoerninger
04-11-2009, 12:32 AM
Where's the CONSISTENCY?
It is the flexibility. :)
____________
Peter

And it is all for the music. Look here (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=247434&postcount=41),
although I could not find any hint that the recording was made as matrixed quad.

Mike Ronesia
04-19-2009, 04:38 PM
It is the flexibility. :)
____________
Peter

And it is all for the music. Look here (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=247434&postcount=41),
although I could not find any hint that the recording was made as matrixed quad.

If I am able to add some PT800 surrounds to go with my front two PT800's I need to place them either above the Light switches or below them. I'm thinking that above is to high and below is to low. Has anyone experimented with, or have any thoughts about mounting them upside down?:blink: Just thinking, I know it may be crazy talk!:)

rdgrimes
04-19-2009, 05:35 PM
If I am able to add some PT800 surrounds to go with my front two PT800's I need to place them either above the Light switches or below them. I'm thinking that above is to high and below is to low. Has anyone experimented with, or have any thoughts about mounting them upside down?:blink: Just thinking, I know it may be crazy talk!:)
You have to go with what you have. Anything from ear-level on up is OK. If you're sitting down, right below a light switch is ear level. So try them both, and forget up-side-down.;)

Mike Ronesia
04-19-2009, 08:54 PM
Below is my aesthetic preference as they will be about 6" higher then the fronts, which are mounted on the L8400's. I think the wife would also prefer that as well.

80sKid
04-20-2009, 08:56 AM
Actually, placing them upside down may be beneficial in a high position for surround use. Most tweeters have a more extended response and smoother rolloff on the axis opposite the midrange driver.

natelabo
04-20-2009, 04:38 PM
I been reading this thread extensively and it seems that the Performance Series speakers are an excellent option for someone that is coming from the older Studio Series but can't afford the jump into the Arrays or Synthesis Systems. Is this the general consensus? What I am wondering or actually scared of is there something better around the corner? I was reading about the new LS series but from reviews and pricing they seem to offer slightly less performance and are cheaper. I read somewhere that the Performance line is discontinued. I have also searched and saw that few parts are left... Do you guys think its a good time to buy or should I hold off and see what the next round holds? What would you value a 7.2 system at 6 - PT800's, 2 - PS1400's, and a PC600 all in relatively good condition?

Thanks!

Titanium Dome
04-20-2009, 05:11 PM
If I am able to add some PT800 surrounds to go with my front two PT800's I need to place them either above the Light switches or below them. I'm thinking that above is to high and below is to low. Has anyone experimented with, or have any thoughts about mounting them upside down?:blink: Just thinking, I know it may be crazy talk!:)

From the J. Gordon Holt review cited many, many pages ago:


Design & Installation
The PT800BE wasn't particularly critical about height relative to the listener; its vertical dispersion was smooth and uncolored from a few degrees below the woofer axis to about 30° above. Placing it with its center at ear height was about ideal, but anything much higher than that caused significant treble loss. This will be a problem if you put the PT800BEs on high stands (which is where I normally put satellites, to minimize front/back balance changes with changes in listening distance), so I turned them upside down. Unfortunately, this put most of their weight at the top, making them even less stable.


I should have taken my own advice about attaching them to the stands—partway through my tests, an accidental jolt that would never have fazed my Tannoy 10-DMTs pitched one of the PT800BEs off its stand and onto the floor. After that, I used adjustable straps to stabilize them. (There are no convenient threaded holes on the top of the enclosure.) A better solution for a permanent installation would be to wall- or corner-mount the surrounds, but because of the below-woofer treble loss, the supplied brackets should be attached to an angled board fastened to the wall, so as to aim the speakers down at the middle of the listening area.

That's from page 2 of this Ultimate AV article. http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/index.html

Titanium Dome
04-20-2009, 05:27 PM
I read somewhere that the Performance line is discontinued. I have also searched and saw that few parts are left... Do you guys think its a good time to buy or should I hold off and see what the next round holds? What would you value a 7.2 system at 6 - PT800's, 2 - PS1400's, and a PC600 all in relatively good condition?

Thanks!

It is out of production, though it's still being sold as new stock. There's no concern that it will be sold out anytime soon. Most parts are available through Harmanaudio.com, though you sometimes have to go on the waiting list until another production run takes place.

Prices vary wildly, depending on where/how you buy. Online, Harman will sell them at about 1/3 off. Individual sellers on ebay, AudiogoN, etc., usually ask less for used gear, with most sets going for a steal at below asking price. A 7.2 used set went on AudiogoN for $6k recently, well below new retail of over $13k.

Good used gear in the box should go for 30–45% of retail, depending on which model and seller's motivation. I sell PT800s at a lower price than PC600s or PS1400s because the latter two are harder to find.

natelabo
04-20-2009, 08:06 PM
Thanks for the reply Titanium Dome... Your posts are what has drawn me to this series the most. I sent you PM maybe you didn't get it? Let me know. Anyone else have some insight? Thanks!

Mike Ronesia
04-20-2009, 08:29 PM
From the J. Gordon Holt review cited many, many pages ago:



That's from page 2 of this Ultimate AV article. http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/index.html

I've read this review before and it's what gave me the idea of the inverted placement. He mentions stability issues but doesn't emply that there are any SQ reasons not to do this that I could pick up on. Not sure how they would mount? Maybe I just need to move the light switches...dang those concrete walls.:banghead:

80sKid
04-21-2009, 03:07 AM
I've read this review before and it's what gave me the idea of the inverted placement. He mentions stability issues but doesn't emply that there are any SQ reasons not to do this that I could pick up on. Not sure how they would mount? Maybe I just need to move the light switches...dang those concrete walls.:banghead:

You would either need to buy or build wall mounted shelves (and secure the speaker to them (likely requiring that you add a hole to the rear panel), or create a bracket to hang them with, which screws onto the existing threaded holes on the base of the PT800's (which would end up on the top, of course).

MikeBrewster77
04-21-2009, 06:44 AM
Please tell me you're not contemplating buying speakers based solely on reviews and what's written on this forum? :o:

As for whether or not it's a good time to buy, well, it really doesn't matter if you buy them and hate the sound. Reviews and other's experience can be a helpful initial guide, but the ultimate deciding factor is your ears. Granted, I'll be the first person to admit it is exceptionally difficult to track down JBL's to audition, but ya simply can't buy speakers unheard unless the retailer has a fairly flexible audition period.

Once you've heard the speakers, and decided you are enamored with the sound (as you should be if you're buying them) then what's around the corner becomes irrelevant because you are already firmly in love with your setup.**

**That is until you hear something else that truly sounds better or you can afford to upgrade :blah:

Best,
- Mike



I been reading this thread extensively and it seems that the Performance Series speakers are an excellent option for someone that is coming from the older Studio Series but can't afford the jump into the Arrays or Synthesis Systems. Is this the general consensus? What I am wondering or actually scared of is there something better around the corner? I was reading about the new LS series but from reviews and pricing they seem to offer slightly less performance and are cheaper. I read somewhere that the Performance line is discontinued. I have also searched and saw that few parts are left... Do you guys think its a good time to buy or should I hold off and see what the next round holds? What would you value a 7.2 system at 6 - PT800's, 2 - PS1400's, and a PC600 all in relatively good condition?

Thanks!

natelabo
04-21-2009, 11:56 AM
Please tell me you're not contemplating buying speakers based solely on reviews and what's written on this forum? :o:


I basically use the forums and reviews I find as a base point... I will be auditioning them if and when I decide to purchase. I do disagree on purchasing specifically when you are enamored with the sound. I believe that does become the case when we are talking about $10,000+ speakers at retail and a dispensable budget. But I am searching in the used realm as a replacement to my Studio Series. I need to factor in longetivity (actual existence of parts in case of damage), actually being able to find the product at a excellent deal and also the factoring the rate that technology is increasing (10.2 setup anyone?) ... I know I'm going to get flamed for this.... The sound is kind of on the back burner ;) I just feel that once your purchasing at a resonable level that almost everything is going to sound pretty damn good. Now I know this doesn't always hold true. But it makes a lot easier on me than weighing all of the options that exist. When it comes to expensive speakers I have many other issues that aren't going to change and aren't helping. Specifically a new house or a better room to hold a home theater. Neither of which is coming soon. You may have noticed how I only mentioned other JBL Series. That is self imposed, my first set of speakers were JBL I plan on sticking with them. It just makes it easier to limit myself or else I would always be in a perpetual state of shopping. At that point I don't think I would ever have a theater system... :D

80sKid
04-22-2009, 07:50 AM
I've bought my share of used speakers unheard, because there is a dearth of hi-fi dealers in my area. So I would make a purchase decision based on the comments and frequency response curves in reviews. It's allowed me to evaluate speakers I had no access to otherwise. But I only do this if I think it won't be a big deal to "re-sell" them if I don't like them, with little to no money lost. (Although I have typically ended up losing some money.) And of course you have to be willing to deal with the resale process, boxing them up, etc.

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 11:53 AM
I've been comparing my PT800/PS1400 stacks to my L250 in my HT system. One of the differences I note seems to be related to the time-aligned baffle of the L250. Although the PS clearly has an edge in precision and dispersion, it lacks that little something extra that time-alignment seems to give.

Has anyone experimented with trying to mount the PT800 on the PS1400 with an appropriate slope of the baffle? Seems like it might be easy to arrange. What would be the correct angle? Or is this just a stupid idea?

jblsound
04-30-2009, 12:09 PM
One needs to measure the difference between the depth of the mid-bass and the depth of the tweeter. The difference is 2" so that's what the tilt needs to be so there is a vertical line running from the voice coil to voice coil.

So from a vertical line from the face of the mid-bass, the flange of the tweeter needs to be 2" behind.

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 12:17 PM
One needs to measure the difference between the depth of the mid-bass and the depth of the tweeter. If the difference is 3" (guessing) then that's what the tilt needs to be so there is a vertical line running from the voice coil to voice coil
That makes perfect sense. Do you think it's worth chasing?

jblsound
04-30-2009, 12:49 PM
That makes perfect sense. Do you think it's worth chasing?

I've never tried it, but with the way I've got the PT800 mounted to my SUB1500, I'd just have to loosen the 4 bolts, just enough to be able to stick a wedge under the front to get that 2".
I didn't measure the depth of the midrange, but guessing it would fall in line.

I figure that it takes about 1/2" to 0 wedge under the bottom of the tower to give that 2" offset.

Titanium Dome
04-30-2009, 02:28 PM
Some things to consider:

The PT800/PS1400 stack already has a predetermined alignment setback. This is not an accidental placement.

The L250/250Ti enclosures are built to keep the Ti tweeter 90 degrees to the horizontal so they aim direct at the listener. (This is less critical for the cone-shaped drivers).

The PT800's tweeter is in an EOS Waveguide. Tilting the enclosure back changes its orientation and moves the dispersion pattern up toward the ceiling.

They're your units so you can do whatever you want. I'd leave them alone. :)

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 02:30 PM
I've never tried it, but with the way I've got the PT800 mounted to my SUB1500, I'd just have to loosen the 4 bolts, just enough to be able to stick a wedge under the front to get that 2".
I didn't measure the depth of the midrange, but guessing it would fall in line.

I figure that it takes about 1/2" to 0 wedge under the bottom of the tower to give that 2" offset.
1st I'd want to know the exact measurements from the baffle to the voice coils on each driver. Not much chance that they will all line up exactly. A washer or 2 on top of or under the PS1400 posts would provide some tilt. Rubber would allow adjustment. I suppose a gasket under either the tweet or mid would allow adjustment in that plane.

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 02:32 PM
They're your units so you can do whatever you want. I'd leave them alone. :)
No, you'd sell them. :p

I know I'm messing with a good thing, but it's not something that can't be un-done.

Titanium Dome
04-30-2009, 02:41 PM
No, you'd sell them. :p

And I'll be shipping some more out soon. :applaud:

Then I'll only have nine or ten PT800s, one PC600, four PS1400s, and three HTPS400s. :p I'll practically be out of them!


I know I'm messing with a good thing, but it's not something that can't be un-done.

True enough. My guess--and it's only a guess--is that the bottom should come forward, not the top go backward. I'd bet that the tweeter is closer to or spot on to the correct position that the 904Ti and 908Ti are.

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 02:45 PM
True enough. My guess--and it's only a guess--is that the bottom should come forward, not the top go backward. I'd bet that the tweeter is closer to or spot on to the correct position that the 904Ti and 908Ti are.
Interesting. As I recall, the bottom plate on the PT800 could be slotted to allow forward/backward adjustment. But it's already sounding like a big project. :(

Mike Ronesia
04-30-2009, 02:46 PM
And I'll be shipping some more out soon. :applaud:
:bouncy::applaud::D:bouncy:

Mike Ronesia
04-30-2009, 02:48 PM
How critical is this alignment? When I mounted the 800's on my L8400's I just eye balled it from a picture of the 800/1400 stacks.

jblsound
04-30-2009, 02:57 PM
And I'll be shipping some more out soon. :applaud:

Then I'll only have nine or ten PT800s, one PC600, four PS1400s, and three HTPS400s. :p I'll practically be out of them!



True enough. My guess--and it's only a guess--is that the bottom should come forward, not the top go backward. I'd bet that the tweeter is closer to or spot on to the correct position that the 904Ti and 908Ti are.

We're only talking 2". The 908 measures 2 1/2" from flange to VC. The Tweeter's measurement is only 1/2" to VC. So a diff of only 2". That works out to a 5.5* tilt

As for the set back of the PT800 to the sub, that only time align the mid-bass to the sub.
I have no idea what the LE14-3 distance is flange/VC as I don't have one.

But as to if it would be worth the bother is something else again.

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 03:08 PM
How critical is this alignment? When I mounted the 800's on my L8400's I just eye balled it from a picture of the 800/1400 stacks.
I suspect it's important. When recently doing auto-setup in my Yamaha, I wound up with the L and R stacks getting set with distances of 1/2 ft different. (side-wall reflections). When I changed it back to the same distance I heard it immediately and the difference was impressively better at the same distance. Even outside my sweet spot it sounded cleaner that way. That's 6", so an inch or 2 could easily make a difference on the stacks. But looking at mine, the voice coils in the 800 appear to be a couple inches behind the coil on the 1400.

BMWCCA
04-30-2009, 03:11 PM
Please tell me you're not contemplating buying speakers based solely on . . . what's written on this forum? :o:Though it's probably more critical in a built-in HT situation, I've purchased eight pairs of JBLs from recommendations from this forum—and have yet to be disappointed! I would doubly trust any recommendation from T-dome who nearly single-handedly turned me into an L7 believer.

You could certainly find much less-accurate information elsewhere. :D

MikeBrewster77
04-30-2009, 04:23 PM
You could certainly find much less-accurate information elsewhere. :D

Without a doubt! Nonetheless, I still think it's a risky proposition (especially if it's a major purchase) and I guess I'm just not much of a gamblin' man ;)

And yes, I have done it, though with mixed results. Once bitten, twice shy I guess. :(

Best,
- Mike

jblsound
04-30-2009, 04:48 PM
Without a doubt! Nonetheless, I still think it's a risky proposition (especially if it's a major purchase) and I guess I'm just not much of a gamblin' man ;)

And yes, I have done it, though with mixed results. Once bitten, twice shy I guess. :(

Best,
- Mike
It would depend if one was a JBL newbe or a JBL oldtimer.

When I first read Gordon Holt's review of the PS in '02, plus seeing the pics of the speakers I knew they were worth buying unheard. The overall design of the PT800 was basicly the same as the then 25 year old L212s; 3-way towers, sat/sub, real close in cabinet size.

And my assumption wasn't wrong, I haven't heard any other speaker at or below the $3K price I would call better.

jblsound
04-30-2009, 04:58 PM
I suspect it's important. When recently doing auto-setup in my Yamaha, I wound up with the L and R stacks getting set with distances of 1/2 ft different. (side-wall reflections). When I changed it back to the same distance I heard it immediately and the difference was impressively better at the same distance. Even outside my sweet spot it sounded cleaner that way. That's 6", so an inch or 2 could easily make a difference on the stacks. But looking at mine, the voice coils in the 800 appear to be a couple inches behind the coil on the 1400.

I've only got the PT800 about 1" back from the sub1500 baffle and it seems to be all good.
but using the AVR menu one can always use a different measurement for the sub, like having the PT800 at 9 ft, as mine are, and the sub at 8.8 ft. That's a difference of 2.4". Of coarse I'm using a different sub, but that would, in effect set the tower 3.4" back of the sub baffle, in my case.

MikeBrewster77
04-30-2009, 05:00 PM
It would depend if one was a JBL newbe or a JBL oldtimer.

I can see this point, and I'm glad it's worked out for those who have done it. Personally, I still think the whole idea is counterintuitive, akin to say buying a car without a test drive. Even though I know I love vintage Mopars, I wouldn't buy one without driving it first, and I wouldn't buy a newer model based upon my affinity for their older products.

What I think it comes down to is availability, and JBL fans are put in the position where they have no choice but to either buy without hearing first, or to buy something else because of the (much lamented here) lack of availability of the product in the retail market. In other words, can you truthfully say that if those PT800's were available for audition in a local outlet, you wouldn't have gone to listen to them prior to purchase? Be honest now :p

Best,
- Mike

rdgrimes
04-30-2009, 05:52 PM
In other words, can you truthfully say that if those PT800's were available for audition in a local outlet, you wouldn't have gone to listen to them prior to purchase? Be honest now :p

Best,
- Mike
I can say that without hesitation. I might audition them if it was easy to do, but I wouldn't base my buying on that audition because I know they would sound completely different at home. You NEVER know till you set them up at home, period.

Mike Ronesia
04-30-2009, 06:04 PM
I can say that without hesitation. I might audition them if it was easy to do, but I wouldn't base my buying on that audition because I know they would sound completely different at home. You NEVER know till you set them up at home, period.

I bought mine with no audition as there are no local dealers near by. It has worked out very well so far..:D

jblsound
04-30-2009, 06:19 PM
IWhat I think it comes down to is availability, and JBL fans are put in the position where they have no choice but to either buy without hearing first, or to buy something else because of the (much lamented here) lack of availability of the product in the retail market. In other words, can you truthfully say that if those PT800's were available for audition in a local outlet, you wouldn't have gone to listen to them prior to purchase? Be honest now :p

Best,
- Mike
Its not just JBL, there are dozens of ID only companies. And with all of them you have to buy first and then test drive 'em.
But if there had been a store that had the PS within 150 miles I would have gone there first.
But times are changing.

Titanium Dome
04-30-2009, 09:29 PM
I can say that without hesitation. I might audition them if it was easy to do, but I wouldn't base my buying on that audition because I know they would sound completely different at home. You NEVER know till you set them up at home, period.

Ah, there it is. At least 50% (or much more, really) of the decision-making process is at home.

rdgrimes
05-01-2009, 09:22 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300311777851

There's an optimist. Supposedly NIB, but, but, but.....

jblsound
05-01-2009, 12:25 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300311777851

There's an optimist. Supposedly NIB, but, but, but.....

At 1300 this guy should be doing free shipping, which he is, but isn't really free shipping at that price.
When I had my PS listed for around $500, some guy emailed me asking if I would except any offer. Told him no, and no free shipping, at that price.
And now I have no desire to sell them anyway.

Mike Ronesia
05-08-2009, 04:47 PM
I just picked up two more PT800's and PC600 from TDome Audio solutions in SoCal to go with the two I got earlier.:D Now I will have a Performance Series 5.0 setup to go with my two L8400 subs. They are being shipped and should be here in a few weeks. I'm so ready for some 5.1 music...:applaud::applaud:

As much as I'd like a couple of PS1400's to finish it off they are out of budget for now. Things change so maybe someday.

jblsound
05-08-2009, 05:09 PM
I just picked up two more PT800's and PC600 from TDome Audio solutions in SoCal to go with the two I got earlier.:D Now I will have a Performance Series 5.0 setup to go with my two L8400 subs. They are being shipped and should be here in a few weeks. I'm so ready for some 5.1 music...:applaud::applaud:

As much as I'd like a couple of PS1400's to finish it off they are out of budget for now. Things change so maybe someday.

MC music via the Performance Series is indeed sweet. The only difference with my setup is a PT800 instead of PC600. And a pair of SUB1500s instead of the L8400P.
Enjoy

rdgrimes
05-08-2009, 05:31 PM
As much as I'd like a couple of PS1400's to finish it off they are out of budget for now. Things change so maybe someday.
Break out the table saw and router and get to work building a couple custom 15" subs. ;)

But don't worry, we'll let you into the PS snob's club without them.

Mike Ronesia
05-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Break out the table saw and router and get to work building a couple custom 15" subs. ;)

But don't worry, we'll let you into the PS snob's club without them.

Thanks, I try not to mention my Studio L series speakers on this forum.:o: You people are so far above and beyond where I will ever be when it comes to Speaker knowledge that all I can do is read and learn most of the time. I did enjoy building the AV cabinet so making some sub boxes could be fun.

Titanium Dome
05-09-2009, 12:49 AM
Nothing wrong with the Studio L Series or some of JBL's other consumer stuff. Each level of equipment serves a purpose and a market segment. I still listen to my Northridge E Series E50s every week and enjoy the heck out of them. I listen to the SAT10 minis in my home office every day and along with the matching cheapo sub never spend a second worrying if anyone here likes it or not.

Now that I've "moved up" to SAM units and 18" super subs, I have no intention of giving up my Performance Series 5.1 music system because it's "down market." It's a beautiful thing which I will always love.

A lot of folks here have old clunkers from the past that are representative of past lines, both high and low, and we keep them, listen to them, and sometimes rave about them despite their purported shortcomings, so I think representing the Studio L Series is just fine. ;)

80sKid
05-10-2009, 08:04 PM
Very well said! :applaud:

Mike Ronesia
05-10-2009, 08:49 PM
Don't get me wrong. I think they are crazy good for the money I paid. It's just that they are not Heritage.

Titanium Dome
05-11-2009, 02:43 PM
Don't get me wrong. I think they are crazy good for the money I paid. It's just that they are not Heritage.

There was time when L100s, L200s and L300s weren't heritage either. ;)

I paid $273 each for my brand new L100s in 1970. They'd cost a lot more today, but they'd be be much better speakers if built today, too. They'd have real crossovers in them. They'd have real speaker connector posts. They'd have more advanced cabinet design. They'd have better drivers. They'd have better frequency response.

For less than $273 I can get a Studio L Series L820, which is a better speaker in almost every way: better crossovers, better binding posts, better midrange driver, better tweeter, more advanced cabinetry, and much better frequency response. What's it missing? A 12-inch woofer (and the boomy lower third octave) and wood veneer. :D

JBLAddict
05-11-2009, 02:57 PM
Well at least they won't have dust caps to push in. ;)

There really are no stands that are toddler-proof. No chance of a wall mount?
You can remove the bottom plate from the PT800 and bolt it to almost anything, then bolt the PT800 back to the plate. What about some kind of tables?

not true, my 2yr old took the cover off my LC center and wedged his grubby lil fingers around the wave guide and pushed in the nice "shiny" dome on the tweeter......

jblsound
05-11-2009, 03:01 PM
not true, my 2yr old took the cover off my LC center and wedged his grubby lil fingers around the wave guide and pushed in the nice "shiny" dome on the tweeter......
You should be able to suck it back out using a vacuum w/wand attachment.

jblsound
05-11-2009, 03:10 PM
There was time when L100s, L200s and L300s weren't heritage either. ;)

I paid $273 each for my brand new L100s in 1970. They'd cost a lot more today, but they'd be be much better speakers if built today, too. They'd have real crossovers in them. They'd have real speaker connector posts. They'd have more advanced cabinet design. They'd have better drivers. They'd have better frequency response.

For less than $273 I can get a Studio L Series L820, which is a better speaker in almost every way: better crossovers, better binding posts, better midrange driver, better tweeter, more advanced cabinetry, and much better frequency response. What's it missing? A 12-inch woofer (and the boomy lower third octave) and wood veneer. :D

The wire connectors used in the '70s left much to be desired. And crossover parts are much better today. But there is nothing stopping anyone from building new XOs for vintage speakers. In fact, I'd call it a must if still using old speakers.
As for better drivers, imo, it would depend on the drivers in question, as to if today's driver are better.

jblsound
05-16-2009, 07:09 PM
Does anyone remember the poster who had a complete 2 channel PS system and built upgraded external crossovers, with the XO boxes filled with sand?
I've been searching for that thread and can't find it.

hjames
05-16-2009, 07:50 PM
Does anyone remember the poster who had a complete 2 channel PS system and built upgraded external crossovers, with the XO boxes filled with sand?
I've been searching for that thread and can't find it.
Yeah, he was a Canadian Guy ... B&Kman

http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1388&highlight=4345+crossover

jblsound
05-16-2009, 09:06 PM
I don't think that's the same guy or thread. B&KMan is talking about a 4343, not the PS.
The thread I'm talking about there were pics of PS stacks with the crossover boxes sitting on top of the subs, showing the XOs and then pics with the boxes filled with sand.

hjames
05-16-2009, 09:28 PM
Ahhh ... right, B&Kman did do some sand-filled crossover, but I remember that other one ... darned if I can find it right now tho ...


I don't think that's the same guy or thread. B&KMan is talking about a 4343, not the PS.
The thread I'm talking about there were pics of PS stacks with the crossover boxes sitting on top of the subs, showing the XOs and then pics with the boxes filled with sand.

jblsound
05-17-2009, 10:00 AM
Ahhh ... right, B&Kman did do some sand-filled crossover, but I remember that other one ... darned if I can find it right now tho ...

I've done about a dozen searches, worded different ways with no luck.

edit: Well lucky 13, just found that thread.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=9250&highlight=sand+filled+Series

80sKid
05-19-2009, 02:09 AM
Can anyone say if there a possibility of a PT800 crossover upgrade that is above the quality of stock, but isn't $350 per speaker (as the sand-filled beauties were)?

I ask because it's something I want to take into consideration as I wait for my opportunity to get a pair of them for a nice price.

Mike Ronesia
05-19-2009, 02:30 AM
That does sound like a fun project.;)

jblsound
05-19-2009, 08:56 AM
Can anyone say if there a possibility of a PT800 crossover upgrade that is above the quality of stock, but isn't $350 per speaker (as the sand-filled beauties were)?

I ask because it's something I want to take into consideration as I wait for my opportunity to get a pair of them for a nice price.

The cost of crossovers is directly linked to what brand of caps are used. I ran the numbers for a C-C XO at parts express, using mostly Solens and some Jantzen caps, the total parts cost was almost $500 for a pair of crossovers, not counting the boxes and sand or wire. That total didn't count by-pass caps either, with those would add about another $72, using Theta AudioCap.

The Mundorf caps that skeptical1 used are more expensive. But I wouldn't use anything less than the Solens, not worth the bother.

As for getting PT800s at a nice price, lol. And if you did get them for cheap, even more reason to spend the money on the XOs, that's still a lower total cost than the list price, or even what harmanaudio used to sell the PT800s for. Which are no longer available.

80sKid
05-20-2009, 12:18 AM
Yikes.

Well we each have a standard we expect. I simply can't afford to build crossovers at that performance level because of the cost.

Based on what I know (which is obviously less than many of you experts around here), I have to think there is something beyond factory that maintains affordability. Say, around $150 per speaker?

Or are the factory units already at that level? I suppose they could be in the Performance series, but I didn't think JBL was pouring components of that level into most of their consumer speakers.

I continue to have faith that I will one day find the PT800s used for a price that I can afford.

Mike Ronesia
05-20-2009, 12:22 AM
I think you could get the XO's from JBL for around $70 a few years back. I don't know if they are still offered or at what price.

rdgrimes
05-20-2009, 06:01 AM
I think you could get the XO's from JBL for around $70 a few years back. I don't know if they are still offered or at what price.

It's still available, PN - 336614-001. $61.49

jblsound
05-20-2009, 09:58 AM
Yikes.

Well we each have a standard we expect. I simply can't afford to build crossovers at that performance level because of the cost.

Based on what I know (which is obviously less than many of you experts around here), I have to think there is something beyond factory that maintains affordability. Say, around $150 per speaker?

Or are the factory units already at that level? I suppose they could be in the Performance series, but I didn't think JBL was pouring components of that level into most of their consumer speakers.

I continue to have faith that I will one day find the PT800s used for a price that I can afford.

JBL only supplies one XO for the PT800, its a good XO. If you were to get any PS speakers there would be no reason to upgrade. I haven't done it yet either, b/c of the cost, and the fact that the PT800 boxes are not big enough to house a C-C network. For PT800 mounted to subs, that's not a problem, just have to build boxes to sit on the subs. But it would be a problem for wall mounted PT800s.

Like I said, the cost of building upgraded XOs is related to the size and brand of caps used. And it serves no purpose to build C-C networks and use bottom of the barrel components, just a waste of money.
I'll give you a cost comparision. The C-C networks I built for my custom L212s was $300/pr. But the cost of C-C networks for the PT800 would be at least $500/pr.
The difference in the cost is the size of caps required for the PT800, which are larger than ones required for the L2121s. There is no way to get around that.

You either spend the money, or just use the stock XOs. And at that, the PT800 are better than any other speaker I've heard below $3K/pr.

Mike Ronesia
05-20-2009, 01:57 PM
Can anyone recommend a good book about this stuff. I'd like to know why the larger caps are needed and how they change the sound.

jblsound
05-20-2009, 02:06 PM
Can anyone recommend a good book about this stuff. I'd like to know why the larger caps are needed and how they change the sound.

The larger caps don't change(improve) the sound. The DC voltage applied to the caps does.
But to apply the DC volts, you have to use two caps in series (at the common point of the caps). To maintain the proper capacidence of a single cap, you have to double the size when caps are placed in series.

If the original XO has, lets say, an 8uF cap, in a given part of the circuit, to make it a C-C circuit requires that two 16uF caps are wired in series. That series pair of 16uF = 8uF.

Of coarse, you have to add a 2~6 megohm resistor and battery, at the common point.

Check out the Coupled-Charged thread, also.

80sKid
05-21-2009, 01:08 AM
...You either spend the money, or just use the stock XOs. And at that, the PT800 are better than any other speaker I've heard below $3K/pr.

OK, thanks for that.

I was thinking the factory ones weren't great, because of the comments of the chap who made the expensive crossovers. But obviously anything OEM would be flawed compared to the mega crossovers he made.

jblsound
05-21-2009, 09:22 AM
OK, thanks for that.

I was thinking the factory ones weren't great, because of the comments of the chap who made the expensive crossovers. But obviously anything OEM would be flawed compared to the mega crossovers he made.

In the world of audio, anything is upgradeable. The sound of the PT800 in stock form is very good. That said, you can make improvements, a number of ways, if you want to take the time and spend the money.
One way is to build more expensive XOs. Another way that has been discussed a few years ago on this forum, would be to build 250Ti type boxes, that are time aligned.

Of coarse another upgrade would be buy even better speakers; Arrays, K2, Everest II, Revel. But all of those choices cost a lot more cash.

Mike Ronesia
05-21-2009, 02:04 PM
build 250Ti type boxes, that are time aligned.

I've been toying with this idea for a few months now. I love those boxes but am no craftsman.

jblsound
05-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Using both 250 type boxes and C-C networks would be a total improvement. But, imo, just doing C-C networks would provide the biggest improvement.

Titanium Dome
05-21-2009, 04:51 PM
Using both 250 type boxes and C-C networks would be a total improvement. But, imo, just doing C-C networks would provide the biggest improvement.

That and making sure you've got a 400+ W/ch amp to drive them. Make that two amps if you're really serious. :bouncy:

jblsound
05-21-2009, 05:18 PM
That and making sure you've got a 400+ W/ch amp to drive them. Make that two amps if you're really serious. :bouncy:
At least 200+w. My thought was still using the sub amp for the 4th driver, which would be the LE14H-3, SUB1500, or some such thing.

If you're using speakers in a near field setup like I am in this room, don't need a lot of watts, but these C-C networks really shine on low volume. Same as using the class A circuit on an amp.

Poster on the HK7550HD thread @ AVS said he got a demo in the high end room at Northridge. They had the yet to be released 7550HD AVR connected to some Revels and it had headroom to spare.

Mr. Widget
05-21-2009, 06:55 PM
Poster on the HK7550HD thread @ AVS said he got a demo in the high end room at Northridge. They had the yet to be released 7550HD AVR connected to some Revels and it had headroom to spare.The "high end" rooms I saw at Northridge weren't using AVRs. ;)


Widget

jblsound
05-21-2009, 07:21 PM
The "high end" rooms I saw at Northridge weren't using AVRs. ;)


Widget
I wasn't there, just repeating what another poster mentioned. This was just recently.
FWIW, the 7550HD is HK's top of the line AVR.
I would have thought they'd only be using separates, but who knows.

Titanium Dome
05-21-2009, 11:57 PM
I may know soon.:beamup:

I'm hoping to get beamed up to Northridge once the Synthesis® install is done. My very first visit there was a chance to see and hear the Performance Series. Gosh, that seems like so long ago now.

Mike Ronesia
05-30-2009, 03:39 PM
they are finally here. I managed to pry another 2 PT800's and a PC600 out of T Domes tight grip when he had a moment of weakness. I now have my complete Performance 5.0 setup.:nutz:

Now I have to work on the room. I have to do a new AV wall and window treatments. Here is what I have so far.

http://www.underexposed.us/images/JBL_s-010.jpg

http://www.underexposed.us/images/JBL_s-019.jpg

Titanium Dome
05-31-2009, 09:49 AM
Ah, my babies have a new home. They look happy. :)

Congratulations!

MikeBrewster77
05-31-2009, 09:55 AM
they are finally here. I managed to pry another 2 PT800's and a PC600 out of T Domes tight grip when he had a moment of weakness. I now have my complete Performance 5.0 setup.:nutz:

Now I have to work on the room. I have to do a new AV wall and window treatments. Here is what I have so far.

Looks like a nice setup Mike - congrats! :D

Best,
- Mike

rdgrimes
05-31-2009, 10:00 AM
Ah, my babies have a new home.
You sold your children!! :blink:

Mike Ronesia
06-07-2009, 09:12 PM
Looks like a nice setup Mike - congrats! :D

Best,
- Mike

Thanks, I am loving them so far.:D

Mike Ronesia
06-07-2009, 09:14 PM
You sold your children!! :blink:

Only 5 of his baby's:baby::baby::baby::baby::baby:...To me anyway.

4313B
06-07-2009, 10:02 PM
they are finally hereWow! That's really nice! :yes:

Allanvh5150
06-07-2009, 11:04 PM
Doesn't your neck get sore?

Allan.

Mike Ronesia
06-08-2009, 12:28 AM
Not when I recline but, I do plan on lowering the TV to level with the tops of the fronts when I build a new wall unit.

St. Anger
07-06-2009, 07:24 PM
Hi All,

I just recently finished my basement, a project that I started around Thanksgiving 2008. One of the main items was the surround system and projection screen. I originally posted back in November asking some questions about the Performance series prior to buying all of the speakers. I received them about the 1st week of Dec and did not open the boxes until about the 2nd week of April when I installed them. I am thrilled :applaud:with the sound of the system. I am more of a heavy metal rock fan and this system is awesome at concert levels.
My system is as follows:
L & R - PT800/PS1400 stacked, fullrange
C - PC600
LS,LR,RR,RS - PT800
Sub- (4) L8400P's
B&K Reference 200.7 amp (200w x7)
Onkyo 885 preamp
Epson 6500UB projector
100" Elite screen

I'll attach some photos.

St. Anger
07-06-2009, 07:27 PM
More photos, close up of custom built stand for PT800.

St. Anger
07-06-2009, 07:31 PM
Last set of photos. You can see the wall mounted side speakers and the rears behind the couch. The equipment rack is built into a wall that has walk behind access.

jonfu@ymail.com
07-06-2009, 08:25 PM
Very impressive. Thanks for sharing.

Edit: Where did you put the Wii's sensor bar?

Titanium Dome
07-06-2009, 09:47 PM
Looks great! Those PT800s will love that open room.

My only suggestion is consider putting something on the front wall to a) absorb unwanted sound and b) darken the area around the screen. I know this is probably down the road and may require approval from others, but just think about it while you're enjoying the heck out of this wonderful system right now.

Congratulations!

jblsound
07-07-2009, 08:29 AM
Nice setup and room. The PS is indeed a very good system. Must really pound with 6 subs. :applaud:
I'm only using two real subs, two L55s for secondary subs and I get slamed.

jcrobso
07-07-2009, 10:08 AM
I have not seen this debated here(or at least recently) about the need for more than just one sub.
There is a saying that since bass is onmi-directional it does not matter where you put the sub. I tend to disagree with this statement.

After hearing some surround setups with one sub and small surrounds I didn't like the effect. I chose to use my JBL L88s as the surround speakers this way I configured my surrounds as a large speaker and get the low frequencies in the surround sounds coming from the L88s instead from coming from the front sub.

4313B
07-07-2009, 10:27 AM
I have not seen this debated here(or at least recently) about the need for more than just one sub.That's because there is no debate. Multiple subs rule. :p




Nice setup there St. Anger! :yes: