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mikebake
09-28-2006, 04:37 PM
1960's suburbia Midwest construction; block wall basement, on concrete floor. 64,728 tons of clay surround this room. Bass doesn't flex walls or escape; bass is robust-o.
Bowwww shikka bow bow..............
Thanks to the G man for a little more heaven...........

JBLnsince1959
09-28-2006, 04:43 PM
Hey Mike!

Good to see the boxes are finally done:bouncy: ...now get down to some serious listening......

Looks great....enjoy....:applaud: :applaud:

so how long have you had them together??

mikebake
09-28-2006, 04:45 PM
Hey Mike!

Good to see the boxes are finally done:bouncy: ...now get down to some serious listening......

Looks great....enjoy....:applaud: :applaud:

so how long have you had them together??
2 hrs. 15 minutes

Titanium Dome
09-28-2006, 05:47 PM
They look great. :bouncy:

bone215
09-28-2006, 06:23 PM
love the pictures and detailed analysis, thanks for your efforts
the specs on the 400 seem somewhat similar to the 120PII. I have been pleased with mine considering the purchase price and ability to match with my mains

19097

bone215
09-28-2006, 06:28 PM
one on each side, here is a pic of the left side with grill covers on, I run an ACI Titan II sub for the real low frequencies as well

19098

JBLnsince1959
09-28-2006, 07:10 PM
2 hrs. 15 minutes
:D

Well, now that you finally got them together..let us know what you think...

Mr. Widget
09-28-2006, 07:17 PM
Congratulations Mike!

Those really do look wonderful... I am sure they will be capable of scaring the sh*t out of you. :applaud:

Maybe some dark curtains or sonex on that cinder block wall? ;)


Widget

mikebake
09-28-2006, 07:48 PM
:D

Well, now that you finally got them together..let us know what you think...
Quite a difference from the ported boxes; took me a bit to adjust. No lack of grunt, though. The standard PS1400, as per my recollection of a year ago, is that they are better in upper bass, but the sub1500's have a foundation that the PS1400 does not. The 2245H's in this setup were the most effortless, but the sub1500's do most of the 2245 tasks without the real estate requirements. Just listened to music DVD's and misc. tonight; will dial in with good music CD's over the next week.

mikebake
09-28-2006, 07:54 PM
Congratulations Mike!

Those really do look wonderful... I am sure they will be capable of scaring the sh*t out of you. :applaud:

Maybe some dark curtains or sonex on that cinder block wall? ;)


Widget
Maybe. Will have to evaluate the return on effort. Picture doesn't need the curtains, that is for sure. Too bad audio is less manageable than video. I can manage a video result that is easily in the top percentiles, and while the PS already are better than 98.294 of the rest of the world, the variables are not nearly as controllable as mere light.........

MJC
09-28-2006, 09:25 PM
Great looking speakers. What is the cu.ft. of the sub1500 boxes?
Is the overall height of the PT800/sub1500 taller than when the PT800s are mounted to the PS1400s?

JBLnsince1959
09-29-2006, 02:52 AM
Quite a difference from the ported boxes; took me a bit to adjust. No lack of grunt, though. The standard PS1400, as per my recollection of a year ago, is that they are better in upper bass, but the sub1500's have a foundation that the PS1400 does not. The 2245H's in this setup were the most effortless, but the sub1500's do most of the 2245 tasks without the real estate requirements. Just listened to music DVD's and misc. tonight; will dial in with good music CD's over the next week.

Way Cool.....Congrads Mike.:applaud: I've got a few questions tho... from the pictures it appears that the crossovers and amps that the regular 1400 has are not in the boxes that Giskard built for you so I would assume that you are using active crossovers and two amps. So my questions are:

1. What active crossover are you using and what is the freq at which they are crossed
2. what amps are you using to run these puppies...

BTW.. how's your friend doing with his PS series after the last year and half? Tell him I said hi..

as you get it tuned in the next week, comments on the sound would be great.

I would agree with Widget on the drapes. When Russ and his wife ( Rusnzha) came to my house the second time and we were playing with the PS series I placed one of Whit's ( My german Shepherd) large padded beds behind one of the PS stacks against the wall. Russ said he heard a difference.. I didn't investigate it but it did make a difference.. Maybe when you get time place some throw rugs or something up and see what it does for your hears.

Well, that really looks exciting and after having had to wait so long I'm sure your a very happy camper:bouncy:

enjoy...

mikebake
09-29-2006, 05:03 AM
I am using the AVR for crossover duty, with two IRD monoblock amps for sub duty. I would imagine that back wall treatment would help. I'll add that to the bottom of mine 397 item to-do list.

mikebake
09-29-2006, 05:28 AM
Great looking speakers. What is the cu.ft. of the sub1500 boxes?
Is the overall height of the PT800/sub1500 taller than when the PT800s are mounted to the PS1400s?
The stock unit is listed as 19 inches plus spikes; this one measures 20 inches and no spikes. The dimensions overall are quite close to the stock one. The beefy build factor is there.

JBLnsince1959
09-29-2006, 06:55 AM
I'll add that to the bottom of mine 397 item to-do list.


:rotfl:

Glad to see you're taking it seriously...:D so far I've not looked into it much....

Oh, what's your crossover Freq?

spkrman57
09-29-2006, 07:57 AM
Mike,

Those look great!

I might have to drop in and see them on my way back home when I get the E130!

Ron

Titanium Dome
09-29-2006, 08:05 AM
I am using the AVR for crossover duty, with two IRD monoblock amps for sub duty. I would imagine that back wall treatment would help. I'll add that to the bottom of mine 397 item to-do list.

Better get movin' boy. At ten items* a year, that list will take 40 years to complete, and you're not getting any younger!

The PS1400 does have nice upper bass. Do you feel you gave anything away that you're going to miss?


*That's the TD rate of productivity. Yours may be higher. :yes:

mikebake
09-29-2006, 01:19 PM
:rotfl:

Glad to see you're taking it seriously...:D so far I've not looked into it much....

Oh, what's your crossover Freq?
I have to re-look but I believe it is 80 cycles.

mikebake
09-29-2006, 01:28 PM
The PS1400 does have nice upper bass. Do you feel you gave anything away that you're going to miss?


*That's the TD rate of productivity. Yours may be higher. :yes:
Not sure; some tonal character/transient behavior, perhaps. With an 80hz crossover, it's probably not losing much compared to the LE14, and I believe the comments from others with sub1500 experience felt that it was a fairly musical sub given its' abilities.
Also I can apply power/EQ and configure the sub1500 for safer, stronger, lower output than I would want the 14 incher to go. Having heard my buddies, I think I would have been satisfied with the LE14's, but I happened to have these drivers and some amps, so by adding a cabinet it's a win win all around for me, I think. Ported, the sub1500 was really too efficient and had to be seriously throttled back to match the mains. I believe it was discussed that the sensitivity rating for it seems likely to be too low in reality. They are some punchy mothers ported. I believe I am preferring the response I get sealed. It's more of the character I was looking for, with plenty of headroom still. It seems more controlled, better behaved.

Titanium Dome
09-29-2006, 01:47 PM
Not sure; some tonal character/transient behavior, perhaps. With an 80hz crossover, it's probably not losing much compared to the LE14, and I believe the comments from others with sub1500 experience felt that it was a fairly musical sub given its' abilities.
Also I can apply power/EQ and configure the sub1500 for safer, stronger, lower output than I would want the 14 incher to go. Having heard my buddies, I think I would have been satisfied with the LE14's, but I happened to have these drivers and some amps, so by adding a cabinet it's a win win all around for me, I think. Ported, the sub1500 was really too efficient and had to be seriously throttled back to match the mains. I believe it was discussed that the sensitivity rating for it seems likely to be too low in reality. They are some punchy mothers ported. I believe I am preferring the response I get sealed. It's more of the character I was looking for, with plenty of headroom still. It seems more controlled, better behaved.

You know, one of my first subs was a Cambridge Audioworks 12" sealed unit in a pretty big box: 10x18x30 (approx. 3.1 cubic ft.). It was quite well-mannered, but subsequent JBL and Fosgate Audionics ported subs handily out punched it.

The little HTPS-400 I picked up with about a 2.2 cubic ft. sealed volume really is more punchy than that old CA, too, but very much more controlled than my ported JBL subs. Makes me wonder about a few things. :hmm:

MJC
09-29-2006, 05:26 PM
Ported, the sub1500 was really too efficient and had to be seriously throttled back to match the mains. I believe it was discussed that the sensitivity rating for it seems likely to be too low in reality. They are some punchy mothers ported. I believe I am preferring the response I get sealed. It's more of the character I was looking for, with plenty of headroom still. It seems more controlled, better behaved.
I think you're right on that. I currently have my two sub1500s setup with one ported in a 3.7cuft box and the other sealed, in a 2.5cuft box. The ported will give me 3~4db more output than the sealed, put I think I like the sealed better. Maybe that's because I'm used to listening to sealed subs(30 years).
I've also been thinking about doing a setup like yours, with my main L212s mounted on top of sealed sub1500s.
One question on that, what is your center to center distance of the 8" mid-bass driver to the sub1500?

mikebake
10-01-2006, 07:52 AM
I've also been thinking about doing a setup like yours, with my main L212s mounted on top of sealed sub1500s.
One question on that, what is your center to center distance of the 8" mid-bass driver to the sub1500?
About 18 inches.

MJC
10-01-2006, 11:08 AM
About 18 inches.
Last night I moved the two sub1500s to the main postions and set the L/R L212s on top with 3/4" strips in between. That gives me around 19" C/C of mid-bass and subs.
I watched the FOG and the combined sound of the towers and subs was a lot more cohesive. And the low bass was outstanding. And that was only using those two subs. I took the two 12" subs out of the mix, which had been postioned between the L/R and center. And the center works better with more space around it.
Then I remembered, back when I only had one 12" sub, I did a pink noise test, with the sub at the seated position and walked around the room, with a spl meter, and found that the two hot spots were right behind the towers.
So now its just a matter of getting some 3/4" Ash and cutting a couple of tops for the subs. Bolt the mains to the Ash tops, and use thru-bolts to anchor the Ash to the top of the subs.
So now I've got the next best thing to a pair of PS mains.

Titanium Dome
10-15-2006, 04:54 AM
How often do JBL electronics get the photo op? Especially in the Performance Series?

I don't think I'll swap out my FAP T1+ and FAA1000.5s for this gear, but I would like to use the long awaited BassQ some day. I wonder if the AV1 will be absolutely required. I suppose it will. :(

MJC
10-15-2006, 10:07 AM
I don't think I'll swap out my FAP T1+ and FAA1000.5s for this gear, but I would like to use the long awaited BassQ some day. I wonder if the AV1 will be absolutely required. I suppose it will. :(
W/O one form or another of Harman gear(JBL, Lexicon or H/K) you don't get the option of using L7. And if I'm not watching a dvd with dts-es Discrete, I always use L7. Much better than DD, including the center dialog.

Titanium Dome
10-15-2006, 10:55 AM
W/O one form or another of Harman gear(JBL, Lexicon or H/K) you don't get the option of using L7. And if I'm not watching a dvd with dts-es Discrete, I always use L7. Much better than DD, including the center dialog.

Well of course that AV1 is a rebadged Lexicon MC-4 and the AVA7 looks to be a rebadged Lexicon GX-7. They're both nice "entry level" Lexicon products, which means they're above consumer grade and similar to more expensive Lexicon products.

hjames
10-15-2006, 11:07 AM
I did some reasearch (Googled it!) and it looks like the AV-1 has a lot going for it! Might make sense to dump my JVC receiver and go with something like the AV-1 ... sure looks like enough ins and outs for me ...
http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=AV1&CheckProduct=Y
(http://www.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=AV1&CheckProduct=Y)
One thing I can't find is a ballpark price for the thing.
I know what they say about "if you have to ask" but frankly, I always have to ask! ...

Any idea what MSRP is on that thing?

MJC
10-15-2006, 11:33 AM
for the thing.
I know what they say about "if you have to ask" but frankly, I always have to ask! ...

Any idea what MSRP is on that thing?
If it is basicly a MC-4 and the MC-4's price is about $4500~$4800. And I was going to get it, but when I saw the H/K635 and only 1/4 the price and the 635 had the EZSet/EQ that the Lexicon MC-4 didn't have.
But for the extra price the MC-4/AV-1 should have better processing than the 635.

Titanium Dome
11-10-2006, 08:21 AM
Looking at the new JBL Web page for the Performance Series, I gotta say, :wtf:

It's become a hodgepodge of disparate parts. The original, fine units are there, but so are refugees and cast offs from lesser lines, like the E Series and the older HT Series (a la SVA 1500), and some in wall oddities, NONE of which are equivalent or seemingly related to the Ti dreaminess of the original Performance Series units.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=PER&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

No HTPS400 sub is shown. Speakers with horns? Speakers without EOS Waveguides?

So, again, :wtf:

JBLnsince1959
11-10-2006, 09:55 AM
Looking at the new JBL Web page for the Performance Series, I gotta say, :wtf:

It's become a hodgepodge of disparate parts. The original, fine units are there, but so are refugees and cast offs from lesser lines, like the E Series and the older HT Series (a la SVA 1500), and some in wall oddities, NONE of which are equivalent or seemingly related to the Ti dreaminess of the original Performance Series units.

So, again, :wtf:

I was thinking the same thing:(

MJC
11-10-2006, 09:31 PM
Looking at the new JBL Web page for the Performance Series, I gotta say, :wtf:

Yes, I thought the same thing. How can a horn loaded speaker have the same timbre match of an all Ti speaker?
But the HTPS400 sub never was part of the PS, it belongs to the Synthesis line. Its just that the PS is really only available thru Synthesis dealers (except Tweeters) and they prefer to use the HTPS400 sub over the PS1400 sub, being its smaller and has more power.
Only the Synthesis Four is really the same as the PS. The S4VC (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S4VC&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA)is really the in-wall THX version of the PT800, and the S4HC (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S4HC&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA)is the in-wall THX version of the PC600.

Titanium Dome
11-10-2006, 10:23 PM
From JBL's 2005 CES press release:


A variety of loudspeakers is available to create a broad range of on-wall- and in-wall-based systems. Available models include the Performance P941 and P81 advanced-technology in-wall speakers, as well as the Performance PT800 tower main/surround loudspeaker and Performance PC600 center channel speaker. Rounding out the lineup are the Performance PS1400 14-inch, 400-watt powered subwoofer, and JBL’s HTPS400 12-inch, 1000-watt powered subwoofer.

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/118828.html

So as early as 2005, the HTPS400 had been "borrowed" from the by-then defunct HT Series to become a part of the Performance Series.

Its CEDIA 2006 press release indicates that the HTSP400 is still part of the Performance Series.


In addition to the PS1400, available subwoofers include the HTPS400 (12-inch woofer, built-in 1000-watt amplifier), which features a compact enclosure that enables it to be readily placed in a variety of room locations; the PS10SW (10-inch woofer, 150 watts); the PS12SW (12-inch woofer, 250 watts); and the SS88IWS, which can be mounted between standard 16-inch wall studs.

http://www.hometoys.com/show_news.php4?section=enhancedview&id=10513348

This announcement includes the dubiously renamed Northridge E Series subs, which made the list in the new Web site Performance Series page, while the HTPS isn't there. It is listed as the sub for the resurrected HT Series, though.

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=HTE&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

In any event, it matches well with the Performance Series wherever it ends up in the product matrix.

MJC
11-11-2006, 08:35 AM
I remember seeing that article in Jan '05.
I was just looking at the P941, looks quite impressive. The description of the P35 seems to be a more likely match to the Studio L Series, having a combination of Ti tweeter and PolyPlas drivers, where as the 941 has Organic Ceramic Composite drivers.
With all these different kinds of speakers in the same line one would have to pay attention to what speakers he was going to mix in a system. Then again if going thru a Synthesis dealer the dealer should have the expertise in proper matching speakers for a system.

Titanium Dome
11-11-2006, 01:01 PM
(snip)
With all these different kinds of speakers in the same line one would have to pay attention to what speakers he was going to mix in a system. Then again if going thru a Synthesis dealer the dealer should have the expertise in proper matching speakers for a system.

Yes, hopefully... but the few Synthesis dealers I've dealt with all had the upselling mentality. They wouldn't even sell me the Performance Series because they wanted to sell the more profitable Synthesis systems. "We don't sell that. We find that people who are really serious about their sound want the best. We could order it, I suppose, if you want to pay up front. It might be three or four months. No refunds."

With that kind of attitude, I'm not sure this broad line of Performance gear has any real chance in the hands of Synthesis dealers. :(

Don C
11-11-2006, 06:09 PM
This addition of more models could be a good sign. Maybe they will start distibuting the whole series to more dealers now.

MJC
11-12-2006, 12:24 PM
This addition of more models could be a good sign. Maybe they will start distibuting the whole series to more dealers now.
Most dealers only have speakers when a customer orders them.
The only dealer around here now works out of his house after getting ripped off. He had a set of speakers for an install delivered to his office and somebody knew about it and broke in that night. That had to hurt.
Those of us here know the REAL PS is quite different from the rest of the speakers(timbre wise).
Over at HT Discussion a guy had a post a few weeks ago saying he was going with all JBLs for his HT and listed the ones he was going to buy. The list was comprised of speakers from at least 3 completely different lines, he didn't have a clue that they wouldn't be a good match.
With the Performance lineup, as it is now, would make it even more confusing for the average joe.

Titanium Dome
12-14-2006, 10:10 AM
Oh, hey, someone has some real PS now: five PT800s for $2500. Very nice, indeed!

So, worth $500 each? You bet! You got a great deal, and whether you compare them to PT800s that cost their owners $285 or $1150 or $1700 each, their real value is whether or not you're happy with them and feel they're worth the price of admission.

There are very few, fortunate people out there who've paid $500 for a new speaker of that quality and performance, and even fewer who've heard a speaker like that and can even talk about it in other than theoretical terms.

As you and your ears settle in, it'll be interesting to see your impressions.


I opened up a pair of the PT800s and put them in the main L/R positions of the HT, sitting on L212 bases. Mostly listened to DVD-A in 2-channel, then a movie. At this time they sound very simular to the mirrored, CC L212s, but on certain songs, I'm very familiar with, I heard instruments I don't remember hearing while listening thru any other speakers. Very detailed.
I've got many options as to how and how many of these speakers I'm going to use. Might load all 5 in the HT and put the mirrored L212s in the other room connected to the turntable, and three of the other L212s in the MB. That will leave one pair of 212s as back channels in the HT.
That will free up the Studio L 890s for my daughter's wedding present.
Decisions, decisions.

"Very detailed" was one of the first things I noticed, too. Let us know what else you discover as you (and the speakers) break in.

BTW, I'm forgetting what sub you're using with the L212s (and temporarily with the PT800s).

MJC
12-14-2006, 07:37 PM
Oh, hey, someone has some real PS now: five PT800s for $2500. Very nice, indeed!
So, worth $500 each? You bet!
"Very detailed" was one of the first things I noticed, too. Let us know what else you discover as you (and the speakers) break in.

BTW, I'm forgetting what sub you're using with the L212s (and temporarily with the PT800s).
When I kept seeing $1100 or $1150, which ever it was, for refurbs, earlier this year, I figured I'd never get any PT800s. Never thought I would get a 5 channel system for $2500.
Consider this, it cost me $500/ea to build my 3 front L212s, with upgraded bypass xovers. Then I built two CC networks, to replace the Bypass in the main L/R @ $150/ea, give or take. And the total cost for those was worth every penny. So $500/ea for a totally updated L212, which is what the PT800s really are, is certainly worth it.
The subs I've been using in the HT are a pair of sub1500s. They are going to stay there. I'll mount the main PT800s to them as the L212s were.
The mirror L212s go to the turntable system with at least one of my other subs
The center L212 along with two of the original L212s will go in the MB. I might as well replace those original xovers with the bypass xovers, then all three will have the same xovers.
There will be no lack of fairly high end JBLs around here. And the 3 L55s will be retired, unless I decide to use their LE14As to build two more subs.
Or coarse, there is still the thought, as others here have mentioned, to build a pair of 250Ti type speakers using the PT800s with a subs enclosed in the same box.

MJC
12-15-2006, 06:04 AM
As with the Studio L890s the PT800s is a much nicer looking speaker than the pic reveal on the web.
One thing I didn't realize is the PT800's width is a full 3" narrower than the L212s. And that fact along with the chamfered corners makes them appear much smaller than the L212s. Not as narrow as the L890s, but not as deep either.
So now its time to unbox the other 3 PT800s and do some speaker re-arrangement.
Good thing I don't need any subs, JBL's online store still shows "no subs available." I wonder if that means synthesis dealers don't have any either?

mikebake
12-15-2006, 06:20 AM
Good thing I don't need any subs, JBL's online store still shows "no subs available."
The PS1400 is a nice sounding sub, and the on board amp is handy, but with sub1500's, you are handled.

MJC
12-15-2006, 07:17 AM
The PS1400 is a nice sounding sub, and the on board amp is handy, but with sub1500's, you are handled.
Now I wish I had bought 4 sub1500s. Then I could keep one pair on the mirror L212s and the other for the PS HT. But having the various connection setups that the PS1400 has would be a good thing too. Being able to run the main L/R full range and also have the LFE input to the subs.

MJC
12-16-2006, 10:36 AM
Well, I got all 5 PT800s setup. Two are bolted to the tops of the sub1500s, the one being used for the center is below the screen and tilted back and the other two mounted to the side walls.
I found out, as I remember reading in a review, that if they are too close to crts they will distort the color. I had to set the center a little farther away from the front of the RPTV.
It takes one word to discribe the PT800, OUTSTANDING! And they're not even broke-in yet. I need to get more DVD-audio and sacd discs to feed these beauties.

mikebake
12-16-2006, 11:10 AM
They're broken in........

MJC
12-17-2006, 09:17 AM
One thing I've noticed using a PT800 for a center, compared to using a L212 for a center, is that the dialog/sound seems to be at the same elevation as the L/R towers, even though the PT800 is at the same position and angle. That is sitting on the floor and tilted back. With the L212 the sound seemed to be just a tad low. The difference could be that the 112A in the L212 is more robust than the 8" in the PS, or the EOS waveguide on the tweeter. Then again the dialog, in both cases should be from the mid-range. What ever the reason, its an improvement.
At the same master volume level the output is a bit lower, at least 3 db, than with the L212 system. Now its set @ -22~-20, where as before it was @ -25, for the satellite input.
Its been most of 5 years since I first read about the PS but the sound this system produces more than makes up for the wait.

Titanium Dome
12-17-2006, 05:26 PM
Well, I got all 5 PT800s setup. Two are bolted to the tops of the sub1500s, the one being used for the center is below the screen and tilted back and the other two mounted to the side walls.
I found out, as I remember reading in a review, that if they are too close to crts they will distort the color. I had to set the center a little farther away from the front of the RPTV.
It takes one word to discribe the PT800, OUTSTANDING! And they're not even broke-in yet. I need to get more DVD-audio and sacd discs to feed these beauties.

I have to admit that I didn't have much interest in multichannel audio 'til I got the Performance Series. I was very much into surround sound for movies, but I rarely enjoyed surround sound just for musical listening.

Since putting the PT800s and PC600 into the 7.1 configuration, I've been going out of my way to find multichannel discs, be they Pro-Logic, DTS, DD, DVD-A, or even SACD. The PS units made the whole thing so much more listenable and enjoyable.

I've got to believe that it's a combination of better clarity, better uniformity, better dispersion of the highs (EOS Waveguide), better placement (the PT800s allow pretty exact placement with no excuses for not putting them where they'll sound the best), better processing than I had before (Citation 5.0 replaced by FAPT1, now FAPT1+), and better amps (four Soundcraftsmen PCR800s replaced by FAA1000.5 pair).

Of course, it doesn't hurt that I love the sound of well-made Ti drivers, and these are quite nice. :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
12-17-2006, 05:43 PM
Before someone points it out, most multichannel audio discs are 5.1, not 7.1.

One of the best things about moving up from the Citation to the Fosgate was the inclusion of Cirrus Extra Surround on the FAPT-1 for 7.1 sound. Jim Fosgate's ProLogicIIx in the FAPT1+ is even better, though I like the Cirrus ES a lot.

The Performance Series is easy to work with in these situations becuase the PT800 seems to be quite responsive to the pre/pro's calibrations. I like that. Straight-Line Signal Path (SSP), anyone?

MJC
12-18-2006, 08:22 PM
As good as my 7 channel L212 was there is one word that tells why the PS is better; Titanium. Its stronger, lighter. And from what I've heard so far, being lighter makes the PT800s faster to respond than the L212's aluminium, and pulp drivers. And as you have said is clearer.
After hearing the Ti tweeter on the L890s I knew I needed to hear the PS with 3 Ti drivers. I also like the look better, 3" narrower and with the chamfered corners make them look even more sleek.
One of the things I like about multi-channel music is that you can hear more instruments of the recording because of the fact that more channels means less down mix, so less gets lost.

MJC
12-23-2006, 03:51 PM
Here is some pics of the PS HT.

Titanium Dome
12-23-2006, 04:21 PM
Nice view. That PT800 fits right under your screen! Great!

With the extra PT800s I have, I think I'll substitute a PT800 for the PC600 and see what's what. Since you've had such good luck, I know I should do the same for comparison.

Can you supply some distance figures? FL to FR, distance to center, distance to side walls, distance to rear walls, distance to preferred seating.

Titanium Dome
12-23-2006, 04:23 PM
Heck, while you're at it, can you give your impressions as to the width and depth of the front soundstage in two-channel music and your overall sense of depth and spaciousness in multichannel? How does that affect your placement of your 5.1 surrounds?

Titanium Dome
12-23-2006, 04:28 PM
And while you're at it, tell that knucklehead over on AVS that I'm gonna backtrack his registration, hunt him down, and stick a CMMD cone up his you-know-what. :moon:


The JBL's on the other hand are possibly one of the worst sounding and designed speakers on the market today. They epitomize the 'West Coast Boom and Sizzle' sound ... bass bloat and a harsh treble that'll make your ears bleed after more than 2 minutes of listening. But they leave an impression on the showroom floor, which is what they're going for. Nobody uses mylar as a tweeter material anymore for a reason, it sucks. But JBL does for it's 'super-tweeter'. In my opinion, they're downright painful to listen to.

MJC
12-23-2006, 04:48 PM
Nice view. That PT800 fits right under your screen! Great!
Can you supply some distance figures? FL to FR, distance to center, distance to side walls, distance to rear walls, distance to preferred seating.

The screen is 65". The c/c distance of the L/R is 7ft. That leaves about 5ft+ to each side wall. The baffles of the L/R are 4ft out from the end wall.
Ya, the center is shorter than the L212 center was, about an inch, I think. Plus I had the L212 mounted to a 3" tall, tilted base. So the top of the L212 was right at the edge of the screen.

But I took advantage of the PT800 having mounting screws on the back and bottom. I had a coil of copper ground wire and cut off two pieces and then used a pair of needle nose pliers to form a small circle on each end and then bent them into an L shape, with the circles turned 90* to the "L"

Then you just remove the 2 bolts from the top, back holes and the 2 bottom,rear holes add a washer to each and thread the bolts thru the circles in the end of the wire. The long side of the L connects to the top and the short to the bottom, rear holes.
Almost forgot, I had 3" bolts, plus a nut for each, from the L212 bases that I screwed into the bottom, front holes. The nuts are so you can tighten the bolts to the bottom of the box at what ever distance you want the bolts to hang down. You can see them in the one pic.

johnaec
12-23-2006, 04:59 PM
'Dome - when you get tired of that latest pair you bought, let me know, (Christmas bonus! ;) ) - they'd go great with my extra pair of Sub1500's!

John

Titanium Dome
12-23-2006, 10:47 PM
'Dome - when you get tired of that latest pair you bought, let me know, (Christmas bonus! ;) ) - they'd go great with my extra pair of Sub1500's!

John

The first pair showed up fine, but I'm still waiting on the second pair. Paid $20 more a piece for them, too! He indicates he might have others... eventually.

MJC
12-24-2006, 12:56 PM
Ti Dome, being you asked, and I didn't say in the other post, the main seating distance to the L/R is about 108". The seating is setup to give me the optimum viewing to the TV. At www.hdguru.com (http://www.hdguru.com) their chart shows 102" to the screen for 65" 1080i/p.
So as it is right now, I don't have an equilateral triangle between the speakers and seat. So I'd have to move the speakers both farther off center and forward.

MJC
12-26-2006, 08:09 AM
As I stated once before I had the volume cranked up about 3db more than with the L212s, the first few days.
After two weeks, this past week end they started to bother my ears, had to turn the volume down to a point that is -5db less than the L212s. Seems as the PT800s loosened up they got louder.
Dome, did you notice the same thing?
I was playing them w/o any eq, but the bass came up short thru the sub1500s.The 635 boosts both bass and treble when the eq is on, but I didn't want the treble cranked. So I was looking in the manual for a work around. Found it, with the eq on there is then an audio setup option called tilt. That allowed me to cut the treble to get it back to where is was w/o the eq. Now all is right.

johnaec
12-26-2006, 08:26 AM
The first pair showed up fine, but I'm still waiting on the second pair. Paid $20 more a piece for them, too! He indicates he might have others... eventually.'Dome - could you drop me a PM or email? 'Gotta quick question...

John

MJC
12-28-2006, 11:48 AM
I pulled out the three speakers in the PT800s to have a look. I decided to weight the tweeter w/waveguide, all of a 1/4 lb. The 066, in comparision weights over 2 lbs. That's more than a 1:8 ratio.
I guess, like all things electronic, they just keep getting smaller.
The PT800 crossover looked really small compared to the orignal L212 crossovers. And they(L212 xo) are 1/3 smaller than the C-C networks I built for the L212s

4313B
12-28-2006, 12:45 PM
The Audax makes up for its lack of "power and dynamics" with its smoothness.

I really liked the external CC networks one forum member made for his PT800's.

MJC
12-28-2006, 12:55 PM
I decided to play around with the L/R locations a bit, a couple of days ago. Pushed them about 12" farther apart, to about 8' and toed in. So now I'm closer to an equilateral triangle to the main seat. It seemed to improve the soundstage.

MJC
12-28-2006, 01:01 PM
The Audax makes up for it's lack of "power and dynamics" with it's smoothness.

I really liked the external CC networks one forum member made for his PT800's.
I've had thoughts of doing a C-C network for them, if the schematics to the xo is available.
Liked it when schematics were glued inside of a radio or in a tv's manual.

4313B
12-28-2006, 01:28 PM
I've posted links to the schematics for the entire Performance Series.

The PT800 is in this list.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110699

MJC
12-28-2006, 04:02 PM
Thanks, I didn't think to look there. I see that its a bypass xo. I couldn't see all that much just looking thru the hole for the 908.
I just got back from BB, they had the def tects blairing. Compared to what I'm used to listening to, they sound like muddled crap.

jaybee
01-05-2007, 05:25 AM
Okay, so I've been lurking on this forum for ages.. ever since I bought my first pair of walnut veneer 4312A's really from a good friend of mine many many years ago. Fell in love with that speaker and bought another pair (in black) to build a surround setup. Added some JBL HT1F's as rear surrounds and finally started messing with a cheap center trying to "upgrade" it with some 4312A components which took forever to find.. And then I recently witnessed half that setup burn before my eyes in a huge fire which pretty much f#cked up my entire apartment. I loved my setup (like most JBLnuts here) so needless to say I was pretty pissed off with the entire situation.

Then a few months ago I ran into an article about the JBL Studio L Series, which seem to have some of the properties I have come to love in the old "professional" JBL and HT range and combine this with a decent WAF and an affordable price too. So it might make a nice and affordable "replacement" for my previous home theater setup as I dont have too much cash to spare at the moment.

Now, my budget at the moment is very limited. I have to spend pretty much all of my insurance cash on getting the appartment itself back the way it was before the fire so I really don't have much "room" left for audio stuff at the moment.

However, at the moment I have an interesting opportunity to buy a set of JBL S4VC fronts and an S4HC center (even though as always this opportunity comes at a time when I should be spending my cash on other things). These would be the "THX in-wall" versions of the PT800 and PC600 that have been described in this thread for the past 50 pages or so (yes I read all posts!).

So here is my problem: At this time I do not yet have a possibility to actually mount these speakers in-wall. This might change in the future, but at the moment my setup is actually located in front of a huge glass window (covered with a screen on which I project movies using a Barco 800 CRT projector). The only way for me to hook them up to my system is by simply placing them on my window sil or something like that or mount them ON the walls instead of "in" the walls. My question is: how will this affect the sound of these speakers? I mean, are the S4VC's pretty much the same as the PT800's or do they have a completely different crossover system or something like that which REQUIRES them to be flush-mount in order to sound even remotely like you'd expect? Since PT800's are nowhere to be found in my region unfortunately I cannot opt for those "on-wall" versions instead. Besides this deal seems like a pretty decent one.

I am interested in your opinions regarding the use of this in-wall system as regular "on-wall" speakers and how they (and / or the PT800's) compare to the new Studio L series, which SEEM to share a lot of the components and techniques used in the Performance Series. Am I better off buying a Studio L setup or is the Performance Series (read: S4HC/S4VC) clearly the winner here and should I STFU and buy them asap no matter how I mount them in or on the wall?

mikebake
01-05-2007, 05:53 AM
How much are they?

jaybee
01-05-2007, 06:02 AM
See PM. I'm wondering if I should pick these up because finding matching components for the rears will be a bitch where I live :) Then again, I do already have some decent titanium dome THX jaybee's sitting here anyways so I might use those. (they, and some other stuff survived :) )

johnaec
01-05-2007, 06:06 AM
Don't forget - with any of the PT style series, you *must* also use a subwoofer, (or something), below 80hz - JBL specifically warns about sending anything below 80 hz to them!

As for whether they'd sound different than the finished cabinets, I don't know for sure, but bet they'd sound enough alike to be worthwhile, as long as the price is right.

John

jaybee
01-05-2007, 06:17 AM
Cutoff would be done at 80 or 100 Hz on my receiver like I'm currently doing for the rear speakers. I managed to save 3 JBL Digital 10 powered subwoofers from the fire so I'll probably use those for the bass and LFE stuff for now until I can sell them and get a Synthesis sub or something like it.

mikebake
01-05-2007, 06:30 AM
Why is the guy selling them? I'm always interested when I see people selling off a good current JBL model; why did they buy them in the first place?

4313B
01-05-2007, 08:14 AM
Don't forget - with any of the PT style series, you *must* also use a subwoofer, (or something), below 80hz - JBL specifically warns about sending anything below 80 hz to them!We've since discovered that what they probably should have stated was "the PT800 has very little output below 80 Hz so a subwoofer is strongly recommended."

johnaec
01-05-2007, 08:33 AM
We've since discovered that what they probably should have stated was "the PT800 has very little output below 80 Hz so a subwoofer is strongly recommended."OK. I mainly assumed the warning was so you wouldn't send too much voltage to the voice coil trying to get something below 80hz, say, with EQ. That would be my main concern.

John

MJC
01-05-2007, 08:45 AM
OK. I mainly assumed the warning was so you wouldn't send too much voltage to the voice coil trying to get something below 80hz, say, with EQ. That would be my main concern.

John

No matter how it is stated, "must use" or "strongly recommended", the Performance Series IS as sat/sub system and that means ALWAYS having at least one sub in the system.
As far as adding EQ, that is mostly for the sub(s) anyway. Although in the case of H/K 635 AVR the EQ boosts both the bass and the treble. In my system, using the sub1500, I use the AVR's bass management and EQ. But I then cut the treble, back to where it would be w/o EQ, with the "audio tilt" option.

4313B
01-05-2007, 08:57 AM
OK. I mainly assumed the warning was so you wouldn't send too much voltage to the voice coil trying to get something below 80hz.Yeah, that's how it came across from JBL.
No matter how it is stated, "must use" or "strongly recommended", the Performance Series IS as sat/sub system and that means ALWAYS having at least one sub in the system.It does matter how it is stated. One implies that electrical or mechanical damage will occur. Neither the L212 nor PT800 will "blow up" if used full range without a subwoofer. There have been several installation instances where people chose not to use a subwoofer with their L212 side panels. The L212 and PT800 have a similar low frequency roll-off.

MJC
01-05-2007, 09:15 AM
It does matter how it is stated. One implies that electrical or mechanical damage will occur. Neither the L212 nor PT800 will "blow up" if used full range without a subwoofer. There have been several installation instances where people chose not to use a subwoofer with their L212 side panels. The L212 and PT800 have a similar low frequency roll-off.
In almost 30 years, I've never blown a L212, and I have played them @ full range, w/o a sub.
On the other hand, if you will recall, last year, for a few months JBL was selling Refurb PT800's and PC600's. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I would think the PT800/PC600's had to be "remanufactured" because some people did use them full range, and blew out at least the 908. Or maybe some of the components in the xo.

4313B
01-05-2007, 10:19 AM
In almost 30 years, I've never blown a L212, and I have played them @ full range, w/o a sub.
On the other hand, if you will recall, last year, for a few months JBL was selling Refurb PT800's and PC600's. I have no way of knowing for sure, but I would think the PT800/PC600's had to be "remanufactured" because some people did use them full range, and blew out at least the 908. Or maybe some of the components in the xo.I don't follow. JBL also just sold a whole slew of remanufactured 2245H's. Those were blown up as well, probably from being used below 80 Hz.

The point is, there is nothing inherent in the 908Ti that prevents it from acting like any other typical 8-inch transducer.

We already know that some people out there could blow up any system regardless of make or model.

mikebake
01-05-2007, 10:24 AM
The point is, there is nothing inherent in the 908Ti that prevents it from acting like any other typical 8-inch transducer.
Which is good to know.

IIRC, the AV635 autoset selects a 40 hz crossover to the PT800 and 60 for the center!:blink:

MJC
01-05-2007, 10:54 AM
Which is good to know.

IIRC, the AV635 autoset selects a 40 hz crossover to the PT800 and 60 for the center!:blink:
I don't think the H/K 635 autoset always works right. With both the L212 system and the PT800 system the 635 always wants to set the center to 'large' because the center speaker is set on the floor and the boundry reinforcement it gets. I always change the setting to small and in the case of the L212, set the xo to 60htz. For the PT800 center I set it to 80htz.

But using 5/7 identical speakers, one would think that the processor would 'see' them all the same. But most of the time with the 7 channel L212 system it would set the xo on the back channels to 100, maybe 120, instead of 80. If the 635 was stepped by 10htz I would always have set all L212s to 70htz.

MJC
01-05-2007, 05:15 PM
I don't follow. JBL also just sold a whole slew of remanufactured 2245H's. Those were blown up as well, probably from being used below 80 Hz.

The point is, there is nothing inherent in the 908Ti that prevents it from acting like any other typical 8-inch transducer.

We already know that some people out there could blow up any system regardless of make or model.
Yes, its true some people do abuse most every thing they own. But I don't think I would bet the cost of a 908 against it standing up to the 8" transducers in the L890. Then again, maybe those dual 8" aren't your typical 8" transducer.
I looked in the PT800 manual, but it didn't show what the xo roll off was.
I know the L212's is 6db/octave, which is only about 1/2~1/3 that of most HT systems, with 12, 18/octave most common, it seems, even 24db/per

Valentin
01-05-2007, 06:02 PM
look at the tech spec from the tech part of the forum there you will find the pt 800 starts rolling of at about 100 f3 (-3db)
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12057

that's way the sub has a crossover at 100+ when placed racked

you need a sub if you what the full picture

can you here them alone sure but you are very limited

Valentin
01-05-2007, 06:16 PM
mike

what can you tell us comparing the pt800 to the lsr32 you just bought

mikebake
01-05-2007, 06:33 PM
mike

what can you tell us comparing the pt800 to the lsr32 you just bought
The PT800 is better balanced, smoother. The LSR32 is a good tool but has a bright/forward sounding mid. A x-over rework for the LSR32 might be interesting. Out of the box the PT800 is more listenable.

4313B
01-05-2007, 06:39 PM
look at the tech spec from the tech part of the forum there you will find the pt 800 starts rolling of at about 100 f3 (-3db)
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12057

that's way the sub has a crossover at 100+ when placed racked

you need a sub if you what the full picture

can you here them alone sure but you are very limitedI know... I posted it... f3 is ~ 130 Hz...

I think you guys just like to argue. What we are talking about here is this:


Important Note: Do not send a full-range amplified signal directly to the PT800 tower module. The PT800’s are not designed to reproduce low bass without a PS1400 powered subwoofer. For optimum performance, the PT800 should only receive signals crossed over at 80Hz and above.


The point is that there is nothing inherently wrong with the 908Ti that will cause it to "blow up" if you feed it any signals below 80 Hz. That is the point of this conversation. I've dumped 200 watts into the damn things full range and they just suck it up. Just like the old L212's do. Same concept guys. Both the 908Ti and 112H/2108 roll off at about the same rate in their respective sealed boxes. Both are approximately 9 dB down at 70 Hz.


As for running them without subs... mount a pair in the wall, your choice, L212 or PT800, and see why some people chose not to run a sub in their specific installations. Been doing this since 1975 guys and I guarantee you my install base is a hellava lot larger than yours. :)


Yes, its true some people do abuse most every thing they own. But I don't think I would bet the cost of a 908 against it standing up to the 8" transducers in the L890. Then again, maybe those dual 8" aren't your typical 8" transducer.Apples to oranges.
I looked in the PT800 manual, but it didn't show what the xo roll off was.
I know the L212's is 6db/octave, which is only about 1/2~1/3 that of most HT systems, with 12, 18/octave most common, it seems, even 24db/perCrossover roll-off of the PT800? You mean a high pass on the 908Ti?

Just like with the PT800, there is no electrical high pass in the L212 side panel. Both the 908Ti and 112H roll off at ~12 dB/octave via the small sealed enclosures. Sealed boxes act like 2nd order high pass filters.

4313B
01-05-2007, 06:52 PM
Out of the box the PT800 is more listenable.Agreed.

A x-over rework for the LSR32 might be interesting.Couldn't hurt...

johnaec
01-05-2007, 07:04 PM
The PT800 is better balanced, smoother....Out of the box the PT800 is more listenable.'Hope you're right - I'm supposed to have a couple showing up next week. And while I've got a couple Sub1500's here, I'm gonna' try starting with some just refoamed LE14A's for lows...

John

mikebake
01-05-2007, 07:14 PM
And while I've got a couple Sub1500's here, I'm gonna' try starting with some just refoamed LE14A's for lows...

John
That will be a very nice combination.

MJC
01-05-2007, 09:11 PM
'Hope you're right - I'm supposed to have a couple showing up next week. And while I've got a couple Sub1500's here, I'm gonna' try starting with some just refoamed LE14A's for lows...

John
I've thought about doing that. I've got 3 L55s that I could disconnnect the tweeters and use the LE14As for subs. But I'm sure my sub1500s are much better choice.

Titanium Dome
01-05-2007, 09:26 PM
I know those who have 'em love their sub1500s, and I'd not detract from their fine capabilities, but they're not better than the LE14H* family in every respect or in every situation. (I'm not commenting on the LE14As.) I wouldn't presume to tell those who use them and find them fantastic that a set of properly housed LE14H* would be better in their particular situation, but experience does tell me that a driver that measures better doesn't sound better all the time. It may not even measure better in some environments.

If anyone has some spare sub1500s for me to try out with the PT800s, I'd be glad to see if they'd be better in my room. Of course, if I like them better, you might have a hard time getting them back.

Don C
01-06-2007, 12:05 AM
John, You'll have to shoot me a PM when those arrive. I'd like to hear them.

4313B
01-06-2007, 08:54 AM
If anyone has some spare sub1500s for me to try out with the PT800s, I'd be glad to see if they'd be better in my room. Of course, if I like them better, you might have a hard time getting them back.I have to admit that I like the LE14H-1 or LE14H-3 every bit as much as the SUB1500 or W1500H.

The highlights of the SUB1500 and W1500H are:
1. They can dip into the twenties and teens without blowing up.
2. They can operate in small sealed boxes at levels that would break an LE14H or 2235H apart.
3. They can move more air with less effort.

Frankly, for normal listening levels in most instances I would take either. The SUB1500 or W1500H do not have the versatility of the LE14H. They are true VLF transducers while the LE14H works great as an LF transducer in 2, 3, and 4-way systems.

MJC
01-06-2007, 12:58 PM
As for running them without subs... mount a pair in the wall, your choice, L212 or PT800, and see why some people chose not to run a sub in their specific installations. Been doing this since 1975 guys and I guarantee you my install base is a hellava lot larger than yours. :)

That is just what I've done in this room. Two L212s mounted to the wall with this HD/computer monitor in between. Sometimes I have the receiver configured for the L212s as 'large', other times set to 'small' with the BP12 online.

jaybee
01-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Well... you guys convinced me :) This afternoon I bought two titanium dome JBL Synthesis S4VC front speakers and one very nice titanium dome JBL Synthesis S4HC center. These are the THX Ultra 2 certified in-wall versions of the Performance PT800 series.

Turns out the guy selling them works for the official importer and distributor of JBL in my country and apparently got a nice discount it. Ofcourse I told him to give me a call if he gets a similar deal on a synthesis pre/pro heeeheee. He threw in two like-new JBL HT1D dipoles that he had no need for anymore as an added bonus. Everything came with the original boxes, packing foam, manuals etc. :bouncy: Just driving home watching the "synthesis" label on the boxes in my rear view mirror was worth the whole trip already hehe.

I already have two JBL HT1F speakers in my room (currently serving as rear surrounds) and a couple of JBL subs so this whole package will make a very nice 7.2 surround setup once I move everything into my appartment me thinks :)

This evening I unpacked the boxes just to get a small "taste" before putting them in storage again (It'll be a couple of months until I can move back into my old place and I can't set them up properly here). Well what can I say. These speakers are absolutely stunning. They looked larger in this room than I had imagined they would but still.. truly stunning works of art. And it's been a while since I've said that about a recent JBL product.

Although they are in-wall versions they seem to work great in a front or on-wall setup too and to be honest, with the grilles off, I think I prefer the matte black looks over the PT800's veneer :D

I bought this system because it would allow me to fully integrate them in the room making them virtually invisible, and to be honest that was the main "selling point" to my girlfriend :-) but now that I've spent the past few hours staring at these hypnotic domes in amazement and grinning like an idiot, I think I may need to reconsider the whole invisibility thing. They are just too pretty :).

After running some test noise and adjusting the setup on my receiver using a db meter I played various different music tracks, dvd's and DTS audio discs and was very impressed with the sound. Like some of the reviewers said they don't sound "metallic" at all in fact, in fact they sound consideribly more "relaxed" and open than my JBL 4312A series which kept ging me headaches with phase and spatiality related problems. No such issues here. The sound is no longer "pinned" to the speaker and chorals, music and ambient sounds in particular are far more 3D than I've ever experienced before. I did find the lows slightly lacking, but that is logical when comparing them with my "fullrange" 43 series. Once I added a sub things sounded right again though slightly muddy in the LFE (due to the crappy subs :) ). This was less of an issue with the 4312A's as they had a more bottom range and provided a larger part of the bass content. Still. The whole setup sounds mighty impressive as I am sure my next door neighbours will agree too hehehe. Too bad I can't listen to them longer right now, but I'm sure I'll have plenty of time to make up for that once they are installed in my own place :-p Highly recommended speakers.

4313B
01-06-2007, 04:57 PM
Highly recommended speakers.Yep.

Thanks for the update.

MJC
01-06-2007, 06:02 PM
Ever since I saw those on the JBL site, I've wondered how much difference, if any, there is between the Synthesis S4VC and the PT800. considering the in-walls are THX certified.
But to answer that question would require someone having both in the same room.

Titanium Dome
01-06-2007, 06:46 PM
Well... you guys convinced me :) (snip)

We're glad you saw the light--the light of a soft, beautiful Ti glow from an inverted dome. :D



Well what can I say. These speakers are absolutely stunning. They looked larger in this room than I had imagined they would but still.. truly stunning works of art. And it's been a while since I've said that about a recent JBL product.

Although they are in-wall versions they seem to work great in a front or on-wall setup too and to be honest, with the grilles off, I think I prefer the matte black looks over the PT800's veneer :D

I bought this system because it would allow me to fully integrate them in the room making them virtually invisible, and to be honest that was the main "selling point" to my girlfriend :-) but now that I've spent the past few hours staring at these hypnotic domes in amazement and grinning like an idiot, I think I may need to reconsider the whole invisibility thing. They are just too pretty :). (snip)

That is a dilemma. I have to put the grilles on when watching movies since my eyes otherwise are drawn to the drivers. They really are pretty, shiny things.

Is there a chance you can get an HTPS400 12" sub from the same source? That dynamo in a small cube will really clean up the LF sound, and it's got a ton of power.

It also has more WAF/GAF than the larger PS1400.

MJC
01-16-2007, 09:32 AM
Dome,
Did you ever get around to trying a PT800 for the center? If you did, what was your impressions, compared to the PC600?

Titanium Dome
01-21-2007, 12:13 PM
After the prompting of your post, yes I did. :wave:

I have to say, there's precious little difference in sound. Of course, the highs and mids seem virtually identical. One major difference is that the PT800's front baffle is 10" wide while the PC600's is 6.5" wide.

My subjective impression is that this narrowing of the baffle helps the 904Ti a little. The TM025 with its EOS Waveguide sounds the same to me on either board.

I'm never sure if I like the look of separate woofers like the 906Tis sitting on either side of a center channel speaker. I think I understand the technical and marketing impulses behind this arrangement, and I believe there are circumstances in which it is an improvement and others in which it is not.

In general, I'd guess your situation is better served by a PT800 in the center. In my case, I've got a pretty wide front, and with the PT800 in place in the center there seemed to be the slightest bit of picket fence effect in the lower mids. The highs were seamless.

The PC600 seemed to fill the space better, eliminating the picket fence, but at the same time, there was a little less precision in the lower mids as they were broadened by the 906Tis. However, the source material made a major difference. Movies and dialogue were well served by the PC600. Multichannel music was improved when the PT800 was in place.

Bottom line, I could very well be imagining all of this, because I hear what I see. I don't lug out the gear and measure this shit unless I'm really motivated. Some people love it. I find it a PITA. Add the shots of Sambuca I was taking while I did this*, and it's all suspect. OTOH, few people have heard these speakers in as many configurations and with as many different equipment sets and source material as I have, so maybe my opinion is worth a little. :dont-know

*One of my life's goals is to enjoy my leisure time.

Titanium Dome
01-21-2007, 12:20 PM
Someone on the forum just got an amazing deal on PT800s.

I wonder if he'll post anything about them? :hmm:

MJC
01-21-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm never sure if I like the look of separate woofers like the 906Tis sitting on either side of a center channel speaker. I think I understand the technical and marketing impulses behind this arrangement, and I believe there are circumstances in which it is an improvement and others in which it is not.

In general, I'd guess your situation is better served by a PT800 in the center. In my case, I've got a pretty wide front, and with the PT800 in place in the center there seemed to be the slightest bit of picket fence effect in the lower mids. The highs were seamless.

As I recall, you've got a large screen/projector, which means you could have the PT800 center at the same elevation, if there's room behind. In my case its about 18" low, as the sub1500 boxes are 21" tall.

But for DVD-A/SACD I pulled out one L212 base and set the center on it. So in that situation the center is only about 8" low. Much better for hi-res audio. I also got a better DVD-A/SACD player on Friday.

As for your picket fence effect, how much, if at all, do you have your L/R toed in? Toe-in is suppose to help fill the soundstage. Of coarse that depends on the speakers used.
I've never given it much thought about why two mid-bass are used on centers, as I've never had a 100+" screen. Maybe that's why.
All I know about that kind of center, is when I built a L212 hor. center w/2 112As. Way too much mid-bass And JBL never had a smaller driver that matched.

johnaec
01-21-2007, 04:14 PM
I wonder if he'll post anything about them? :hmm:Not until I get some decent subs hooked up to them... ;)

John

Don C
01-21-2007, 04:49 PM
I could lend my FS-400s for a week.

johnaec
01-21-2007, 05:15 PM
I could lend my FS-400s for a week.Are those the ones with the LE14H-3's? I may take you up on it, but wouldn't be ready for another couple of weeks. Maybe we can get together and you could listen/compare the stuff here at the same time. I'm sure you're wondering how the PT800's sound relative to XPL200's... ;)

John

oznob
01-21-2007, 06:12 PM
Not until I get some decent subs hooked up to them... ;)

John

HOLY CRAP John, where are you going to put them??? I am going to have to make a trip down there and check them out.

:yes:

Don C
01-21-2007, 08:01 PM
LE14H-1s. If you want to bring the PT800s by, some night, that would be fine. I'm bi-amping the XPLs, so the PT800s and FS400s would work perfectly together in my system with no changes. Plug and play.

Titanium Dome
01-21-2007, 08:03 PM
Are those the ones with the LE14H-3's? I may take you up on it, but wouldn't be ready for another couple of weeks. Maybe we can get together and you could listen/compare the stuff here at the same time. I'm sure you're wondering how the PT800's sound relative to XPL200's... ;)

John

I think those are LE14H-1s.

I was going to make a few comments on PT800 (+ sub) vs. XPL200 since I have both, but it'd be cool to hear some relatively unbiased evaluations.

johnaec
01-21-2007, 09:01 PM
HOLY CRAP John, where are you going to put them???Yeah - 'gonna' have to move some stuff around. 'Definitely planning on selling the 4315A's, then I just need to narrow down what I want to keep for my main system, (4430's, XPL200A's, or PT800's w/subs).

John

johnaec
01-21-2007, 09:03 PM
LE14H-1s. If you want to bring the PT800s by, some night, that would be fine. I'm bi-amping the XPLs, so the PT800s and FS400s would work perfectly together in my system with no changes. Plug and play.Your place or mine... I'm also bi-amping the XPL's. 'Stll need to decide on a crossover for the PT800's...

John

Don C
01-21-2007, 09:45 PM
I'm going to guess that the PTs are smaller and lighter than the FSs, so bring em over.

Zilch
01-21-2007, 11:07 PM
Bring 'em HERE first, John.

[CLIO is your friend.... :p ]

Titanium Dome
01-21-2007, 11:43 PM
(snip)
(4430's, XPL200A's, or PT800's w/subs).

John

That's how I'd order them. Now the question is, ascending or descending? ;)

MJC
01-22-2007, 12:50 AM
Not until I get some decent subs hooked up to them... ;)

John
Maybe you can talk Mr. Widget into selling you a pair of his sub1500s.
They work well with PT800s
It would seem that JBL doesn't have any PS1400s

johnaec
01-22-2007, 08:16 AM
Maybe you can talk Mr. Widget into selling you a pair of his sub1500s.I've already got a spare pair of Sub1500's. First, I'm going to try a pair of freshly refoamed LE14A's, since I don't need a huge amount of sub in the room they're in.

John

maabx
01-22-2007, 03:16 PM
I have a question for PS1400 users. Anyone notice a slight buzzing or humm from the PS1400's plate amps? If so, has anyone attempted a cure. I tried a PS Audio UPC-200 and no change. I was thinking about applying damping material to the transformer/torroid, but that would require surgery. Anyone?

BTW, the noise is only audible when I am within approximately six feet of the PS1400's, and is the same out of both units.

JuniorJBL
01-22-2007, 03:37 PM
unplug the signal cable and see if the noise goes away.

maabx
01-22-2007, 03:55 PM
I tried that but no change. The noise sounds mechanical, like a transformer buzz.

Titanium Dome
01-22-2007, 06:31 PM
I've not heard that from my three PS1400s. However, one of them does sound like a dynamo is revving up when I turn it on--a teeny, tiny dynamo.

Since I usually leave them on full time, this is rare, but if I turn it off for some reason, when I power it back up, there's a very slight, rising sound for about seven seconds that sounds like the world's smallest engine is revving, then it disappears. :dont-know

JBLnsince1959
01-22-2007, 07:06 PM
I've not heard that from my three PS1400s. However, one of them does sound like a dynamo is revving up when I turn it on--a teeny, tiny dynamo.

Since I usually leave them on full time, this is rare, but if I turn it off for some reason, when I power it back up, there's a very slight, rising sound for about seven seconds that sounds like the world's smallest engine is revving, then it disappears. :dont-know

I've not heard that "slight buzzing or humm" sound out of mine.

However, I have the same revving sound Dome mentioned; kinda cool really. Let's me know their up and ready for business.:D

maabx
01-22-2007, 07:24 PM
You may be able to hear it if you put your ear to one of the ports. Mine are on Auto full time.

porschedpm
01-23-2007, 03:57 AM
No buzz out of mine. You might try changing electrical outlets so that you end up o a different circuit breaker. Sometimes noises from refrigerators, furnaces, or AC motors can bleed through.

maabx
01-23-2007, 04:40 AM
Thanks for the suggestion. My audio is already on a dedicated circuit. There is no video on the circuit, the PT800/PS1400 stacks are being used for two channel audio.

So all of your units are completely silent in standby? The buzz I have is more 'detected' than 'heard'. You would have to be very close to the units in an otherwise quiet roon to hear the low level buzzz/hum. There is no mistaking it when I put an ear to one of the ports on each of the units. About the same level of buzz on both units.

I am a huge fan of these speakers and I will be keeping them for the next thirty years. The noise will not keep me from enjoying the speakers, as I cannot hear the buzzing from my listening position. But you know how it is: because I know that it's buzzing, I want to fix it.

Titanium Dome
01-23-2007, 07:09 AM
Just to be sure, I got behind the units and put my ear right on the cabinet--nothing. Except now I need to dust the cabinets.

Titanium Dome
01-23-2007, 07:11 PM
I just closed a deal on two more HTPS400s.

NOT this deal on AudiogoN: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1174228545

Rather, I paid about 1/3 the AudiogoN listing asking price, shipped. :bouncy:

Still available from JBL at $1999.99 each.

http://jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=HTPS-400BLK&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA&cat=SUB&ser=HTE

And no hum. ;)

johnaec
01-23-2007, 07:32 PM
I just closed a deal on two more HTPS400s.'Same guy? I was just about to try for the same kind of deal... :banghead: Congrats!

Oh well - 'still got the LE14A's to play with...

John

Titanium Dome
01-23-2007, 07:48 PM
'Same guy? I was just about to try for the same kind of deal... :banghead: Congrats!

Oh well - 'still got the LE14A's to play with...

John

Actually was surprised he went for my offer, but... well, there it is. They arrive Friday.

I'm thinking about PT800 and HTPS400 separates crossed at THX 80Hz. vs. PT800/PS1400 stack at 130Hz.

MJC
01-24-2007, 07:08 AM
Actually was surprised he went for my offer, but... well, there it is. They arrive Friday.

I'm thinking about PT800 and HTPS400 separates crossed at THX 80Hz. vs. PT800/PS1400 stack at 130Hz.
That will give you 3 HTPS400?
A couple of questions about your room. How many cuft is it? And have you ever done a sub location check? That is setting a sub in the main listening position, running pink noise thru it, while walking around the room with a SPL meter to find the "hot spot(s)", you know where the meter reads the highest. And then placing the subs at those locations.
With 3 of those subs that's 3kw total.
I've got my two sub1500s in the hot spots, which is where the towers are, for a total of 1600w in a 3100cuft room, if the sliding doors to the DR are shut. Otherwise its much bigger. And at -20db on the main volume the average db at the seated position is 80~85 db and when those subs fire on explosions for MI III the sound is almost deafening. And its still nowhere near the THX reference of zero db @ the main volume setting.

ps, the 5 PT800s are getting 220wpc, from the Parasound amp, plus the two L212s getting 90wpc, from the H/K635

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 09:14 AM
My bible: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 09:27 AM
That will give you 3 HTPS400?
A couple of questions about your room. How many cuft is it? And have you ever done a sub location check? That is setting a sub in the main listening position, running pink noise thru it, while walking around the room with a SPL meter to find the "hot spot(s)", you know where the meter reads the highest. And then placing the subs at those locations.
With 3 of those subs that's 3kw total.

It's nearly 5000 cu ft., odd shaped.

Yes, and I think I've described it either in this thread or another. The sub was checked with left, right, front, back, and up orientation. It always draws a comment when I'm crawling around, SPL meter in hand.

Inevitably, I'm led back to the Harman recommended positions, or very close to them.


I've got my two sub1500s in the hot spots, which is where the towers are, for a total of 1600w in a 3100cuft room, if the sliding doors to the DR are shut. Otherwise its much bigger. And at -20db on the main volume the average db at the seated position is 80~85 db and when those subs fire on explosions for MI III the sound is almost deafening. And its still nowhere near the THX reference of zero db @ the main volume setting.

ps, the 5 PT800s are getting 220wpc, from the Parasound amp, plus the two L212s getting 90wpc, from the H/K635

The plan is to start with two HTPS400s, center front and center back. Later, I'll try four subs, three HTPS400s and a PS1400 in the center positions on each wall. If that seems to work better, then I might be looking for a fourth HTPS400. If two seem to work better, then I might be selling an HTPS400 and a PS1400.

Assuming one doesn't go nuts with the volume control, I think 5000+ Watts is reasonable for HT.

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 09:29 AM
Oh yeah, I'll probably move a PT800/PS1400 pair into the dungeon as part of the 4-way shrine.

MJC
01-24-2007, 09:35 AM
My bible: http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf
I understand all that, and have had as many as 5 subs in the HT. With the sub1500s at the mid-points of the side walls and the three 12" subs up front, one for each LCR.

But that arrangement looked just too much like a cluster f.
And then I thought, I should put the best of the subs(the 1500s) up front, stacked with, first the L212s and now with the PT800s, when I remembered that those two locations were the two hot spots in that room. Something I forgot about when I started to play around with multiple subs, trying many locations.
But I'm still curious as to how big your room is.

johnaec
01-24-2007, 09:40 AM
...then I might be selling an HTPS400 and a PS1400.Keep me in mind. I'd *really* like a pair of the 400's - their smaller size would fit my room better.

Let us know how those aluminum cones sound.

John

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 09:49 AM
(snip)
But I'm still curious as to how big your room is.


It's nearly 5000 cu ft., odd shaped.

Yes, and I think I've described it either in this thread or another. The sub was checked with left, right, front, back, and up orientation. It always draws a comment when I'm crawling around, SPL meter in hand.

Inevitably, I'm led back to the Harman recommended positions, or very close to them.



The plan is to start with two HTPS400s, center front and center back. Later, I'll try four subs, three HTPS400s and a PS1400 in the center positions on each wall. If that seems to work better, then I might be looking for a fourth HTPS400. If two seem to work better, then I might be selling an HTPS400 and a PS1400.

Assuming one doesn't go nuts with the volume control, I think 5000+ Watts is reasonable for HT.

;)

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 09:50 AM
Keep me in mind. I'd *really* like a pair of the 400's - their smaller size would fit my room better.

(snip)

John

You'll be first on my list.

MJC
01-24-2007, 10:01 AM
Assuming one doesn't go nuts with the volume control, I think 5000+ Watts is reasonable for HT.

First, we keep crossing each others posts this morning.

Yes, you and I are about at the same point, watts/cuft. I'm about 3000w in 3100cuft. But when the sliding doors are open, which is most of the time, its over 6000 cuft. I could add another sub or two, again, with the biggest only 250w. But it seems to more than good as it is.

When I had the sub1500s in the corners RF/LB it sounded a bit disjointed.
At the mid-points of the side walls was much better.

Titanium Dome
01-24-2007, 06:53 PM
First, we keep crossing each others posts this morning.

Yes, you and I are about at the same point, watts/cuft. I'm about 3000w in 3100cuft. But when the sliding doors are open, which is most of the time, its over 6000 cuft. I could add another sub or two, again, with the biggest only 250w. But it seems to more than good as it is.

When I had the sub1500s in the corners RF/LB it sounded a bit disjointed.
At the mid-points of the side walls was much better.

It's really convenient with the FAA1000.5 amps to hook up the PT800s and PC600. I use four channels on one and three channels on the other. They're an easy 200W/ch, and leaving one or two channels idling cuts down on heat and leaves a lot of headroom in the regulating power supply.

Still, I've been wondering what my newer Hafler amps would do at 600W/ch. JBL recommends a max of 250W for the PT800, so 600W seems like overkill, although I'd never drive them to full output. I have some new Haflers with 300W/ch, too, but that's not much of a gain over 200W/ch, and the FAA1000.5 is really a Hafler in disguise anyway.

So, a 5% gain @ 300W, a 20% gain @ 600W... :hmm:

At 400W, I sometimes wonder if the PS1400 is a bit underpowered. (JBL does classify it as a medium power driver.) The Studio L's L8400P sub has 600W. The HTPS400 at 1000W is well endowed.

All this talk of Watts is probably overdone, but I enjoy it nonetheless, and I've heard the difference clean, plentiful power can make. My L7s performed well at 55W/ch with my old Kenwood, but they were super with the 220W/ch Soundcraftsmen.

MJC
01-24-2007, 07:17 PM
All this talk of Watts is probably overdone, but I enjoy it nonetheless, and I've heard the difference clean, plentiful power can make. My L7s performed well at 55W/ch with my old Kenwood, but they were super with the 220W/ch Soundcraftsmen.
Yes, I agree in having clean, plentiful power. Unless someone just cranks it all the way up, there is less chance of blowing a speaker with too much power than driving an under powered amp to distortion.
As for subs, and I've been listening to them for 28 years, I really like these sub1500s, with plenty of power at 800w/ea. Their sound is beautiful.
Although, I'd like to get my hands on one of the HTPS400 at some point in time.
Last year when I was talking to Ron Rouse, who is a top end guy for Synthesis on the West Coast, told me that the installers were all using the HTPS400 instead of the PS1400.

Titanium Dome
01-26-2007, 08:12 PM
The two HTPS400 subs arrived today. UPS left them where I asked, so I had to lug them down to the dungeon. Arrgh, these little bastiges are heavy for their size (and after two Long Island iced teas). I hope I didn't scratch the trunk on the TC Maserati where, like a moron, I sat them down rather than bend down to the floor.

Titanium Dome
01-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Of course, I'm going to entertain you with every excruciating detail, so here you can read the sides of the boxes. Notice these connect them with the HT Series rather than Performance Series, as the HT Series is where they originally were offered. And not just THX, mfers, but THX Ultra.

Pyromania
01-26-2007, 08:54 PM
The two HTPS400 subs arrived today. UPS left them where I asked, so I had to lug them down to the dungeon. Arrgh, these little bastiges are heavy for their size (and after two Long Island iced teas). I hope I didn't scratch the trunk on the TC Maserati where, like a moron, I sat them down rather than bend down to the floor.
Sounds like someone needs to go the gym a little more often. :rotfl: j/k

On a serious note, I haven't come across a sub that didn't weigh a ton. Not saying there aren't any, just that all mine always weigh a freakin ton.

MJC
01-27-2007, 07:07 AM
Of the five subs I have there is a light one, a PB12, a down firing sub.
Of coarse the two sub1500 are the heavyest @ 85 lb, 42 lb for the drivers and 43 lb for the boxes.

Zilch
01-27-2007, 11:46 PM
1m windowed, i.e., quasi-anechoic. Speaker courtesy Johnaec:

johnaec
01-28-2007, 07:14 AM
Thanks, Zilch. 'Looks about +/- 3dB 80-20K, and substantially flatter over much of that.

I think you could have made a better choice for the sub, though... :o: (Like LE14H-1 or 3?) Or maybe I'm just not interpreting the last result correctly... :hmm:

John

Titanium Dome
01-28-2007, 07:25 AM
I think there is no sub, just the 8" 908Ti as the woofer.

johnaec
01-28-2007, 07:30 AM
I think there is no sub, just the 8" 908Ti as the woofer.OK - I understand now - "nearfield".

John

Titanium Dome
02-04-2007, 05:07 PM
If you add an HTPS400 for the bottom, you get to add this to the graph.

4313B
02-04-2007, 09:10 PM
Thanks, Zilch. 'Looks about +/- 3dB 80-20K, and substantially flatter over much of that.Versus JBL's series of measurements.

Zilch
02-04-2007, 10:29 PM
Holy patootie!

Right down to the little pointy dip at 16,557.5 Hz. :p

[Was wondering 'bout that....]

4313B
02-05-2007, 08:07 AM
It takes practice and multiple measurements to come up with anything real meaningful. Just keep measuring at various distances and axis to determine what is real and what isn't.

Right down to the little pointy dip at 16,557.5 Hz. :pYou would have to determine what is causing that. Google Audax TM025. Look at the Audax website. Measure yours in free air.

Titanium Dome
02-06-2007, 09:11 AM
Since we're being so graph-ic, here's Holt's response graph for the PT800 from his 2002 UltimateAV review, showing on axis to the TM025, +15 degrees (red), and -15 (blue) degrees readings.

4313B
02-06-2007, 09:13 AM
Interesting. Thanks.

Titanium Dome
02-19-2007, 07:43 PM
I took the PS1400 I was using as a LFE unit out of the system. Instead, I daisy-chained three HTPS400s as indicated in the owner's manual.

The HTPS400 subs are at the midpoints of the front, left side, and right side walls. They're crossed over at THX standard 80Hz.

At first, the added LFE info was overwhelming, inasmuch as I hadn't done any calibration other than putting the levels at midpoint. Taking out the ol' RS meter, I got the levels right.

The resultant improvement is quite satisfying. The LFE for HT is quite impressive as is the improvement on the multichannel sound from HDTV. However, the biggest enhancement is in 5.1 surround music, such as DVD-A and SACD.

Those little bastiges are quite the subs.

Titanium Dome
02-21-2007, 08:03 PM
Breaking it down: why the JBL Performance Series is the flexibility king.

Stereo Analog: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers.
PLIIx Wide: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers, PC600 center to 60 Hz.
Stereo Analog with Bass Management: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers plus HTPS400s below 40Hz.
Stereo Seven: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers, PT800 left and right surround and left and right rear above 80Hz, plus HTPS400s below 80 Hz.
5.1 Surround: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers, PC600 center above 60 Hz, PT800 left and right surround above 80 Hz, plus HTPS400s below 80 Hz.
7.1 Surround: PT800+PS1400 full range left and right speakers, PC600 center, PT800 left and right surround and left and right rear above 80 Hz, plus HTPS400s below 80 Hz.


:banana:

MJC
03-28-2007, 12:27 PM
As I mentioned in the Studio L thread, Tweeters has dropped the PS. Actually, they only sold the PT800, no Pc600, PS1400s.
Just a few minutes ago I saw why. There was a thread on AVS that said Tweeters in SoCa were closing, and maybe some elsewhere.

opimax
03-28-2007, 01:31 PM
continueing a thought...Circuit City is also cutting... jobs and replacing the over paid people w/lesser paid ones. I didn't know CC could get any lower service but w/new employees???? scary

Mark

Titanium Dome
03-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Well, it's one-way street with many travelers. The B&M store is on the way out for entry and mid level consumer electronics goods.

Some people only buy vintage gear that used to be sold in stores.

Some people buy new gear but mostly over the Internet.

Some people find nontraditional sources that bypass the retailer.

I'm guilty of all three of those things. The last new JBL products I bought at a retailer were the JBL Creature II speakers (under $100), the JBL EONs (under $1000), and the E50 bookshelf speakers (under $150). Most everything else I've purchased in the past 8 years has been outside the retail channel, including all the PS gear. That's not going to keep retailers open.

Soon we'll be left with a few regional chains and friggin' Best Buy.

Of course, one of the reasons I bought outside the normal retail channel for the Performance Series was that the channel that was supposed to carry them didn't. As a result, I actually saved thousands of dollars.

However, if I had never heard them (at a trade show), I never would have wanted to buy them, so there's a catch-22 there. Are we going to have to go to trade shows in the future to hear products before we buy them on line?

The situation is difficult at best, and likely to get worse unless the companies and the retailers come up with a better strategy.

jim campbell
03-28-2007, 02:55 PM
music has to compete with so many different media now that the high end market as we know it is going the way of the dodo.i think that it will survive but in some kind of cottage industry form.the best places here have either disappeared,gone the circuit city route or adapted and downsized to a highly specialized mode

MJC
03-28-2007, 03:14 PM
Of course, one of the reasons I bought outside the normal retail channel for the Performance Series was that the channel that was supposed to carry them didn't. As a result, I actually saved thousands of dollars.

However, if I had never heard them (at a trade show), I never would have wanted to buy them, so there's a catch-22 there. Are we going to have to go to trade shows in the future to hear products before we buy them on line?

The situation is difficult at best, and likely to get worse unless the companies and the retailers come up with a better strategy.
Trade shows, might have to.
There are people, at least over at AVS, that don't mind buying speakers that are available only on the net. They might get two or even three sets and keep the ones they want and send the rest back.
Of coarse, how a speaker sounds in your home is what counts, but I prefer to listen to different speakers in a store and take home the ones I want. As opposed to having to box up, have picked up or drag over to the UPS store and pay to have them shipped back.
I DID buy the PS unheard, but there were at least 2, 3 reasons to do so.
1. This forum, where there were quite a few post of how they sound, mostly from you.
2. The fact they are, basicly, the latest version of the L212, which I've had for years.
3. I was able to buy them for less than a 1/3 of the retail price.
The only dealer around here, a small time Synthesis dealer, I had conversations with, about JBL and Lexicion products, lead me to believe, that I would be buying @ or near full retail. Which for 5 channel PS, was out of my price range.

As far as Tweeters, from what I saw on their web site, only offered the PT800 and none of the rest of the series. That doesn't seem the way to sell a multi-channel system or a speaker that DOES need a sub to make it full range. Then again, maybe they couldn't get the PS1400s, they do seem to impossible to find.

MJC
03-28-2007, 03:27 PM
music has to compete with so many different media now that the high end market as we know it is going the way of the dodo.i think that it will survive but in some kind of cottage industry form.the best places here have either disappeared,gone the circuit city route or adapted and downsized to a highly specialized mode
There are two B&M stores around here that have fairly high end gear, one sells Thiel, Lexicon among others. The other store sell Anthony Gallo speakers, Runco projectors and what ever else. And its the second store that competes directly against BB/Mag ht (in the same shopping Plaza), and has all the business he can handle.

gojbl
04-02-2007, 11:16 AM
The tweeters appear to be similar models of Audax® Ti tweeters. The EOS Waveguides share some features, but they're not the same. The Performance Series has cast aluminum EOS Waveguides.

Dear TD,

I have been searching high and low for a replacement tweeter for the S312 speaker with no luck.

JBL discontinued the part (335663-001, $51.40, for the first generation of S312). I ordered 338042-001 ($22.26, for the second generation of S312) but it does not fit. After many desperate searches I found your forum; it seems that you are the expert on this subject. Do you mind helping me locate this part, or point me to the right direction? I am running out of resources. Thank you.

MJC
04-02-2007, 11:35 AM
Dear TD,

I have been searching high and low for a replacement tweeter for the S312 speaker with no luck.

JBL discontinued the part (335663-001, $51.40, for the first generation of S312). I ordered 338042-001 ($22.26, for the second generation of S312) but it does not fit. After many desperate searches I found your forum; it seems that you are the expert on this subject. Do you mind helping me locate this part, or point me to the right direction? I am running out of resources. Thank you.
Did the tweeter come with its own waveguide or just by itself? If it didn't, you might need the matching waveguide.
With the Studio L series and the Performance Series, the tweeters mount to the EOS and the EOS screws to the speaker cabinet.
I'm not very familar with the Studio series, is the EOS screwed to the cabinet or is it formed into it?

gojbl
04-02-2007, 12:19 PM
Did the tweeter come with its own waveguide or just by itself? If it didn't, you might need the matching waveguide.
With the Studio L series and the Performance Series, the tweeters mount to the EOS and the EOS screws to the speaker cabinet.
I'm not very familar with the Studio series, is the EOS screwed to the cabinet or is it formed into it?

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an EOS and a waveguide? The original tweeter is encased in a mounting bracket; the bracket has two screw holes for mounting onto a face plate. The black oval part is the one I need; the face plate of my speaker is rectangle. Thanks.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/homingl/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/homingl/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpghttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=11221&stc=1&d=1133204772

gojbl
04-02-2007, 12:19 PM
Did the tweeter come with its own waveguide or just by itself? If it didn't, you might need the matching waveguide.
With the Studio L series and the Performance Series, the tweeters mount to the EOS and the EOS screws to the speaker cabinet.
I'm not very familar with the Studio series, is the EOS screwed to the cabinet or is it formed into it?

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is an EOS and a waveguide? The original tweeter is encased in a mounting bracket; the bracket has two screw holes for mounting onto a face plate. The black oval part is the one I need; the face plate of my speaker is rectangle. Thanks.

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/homingl/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpgfile:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/homingl/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.jpghttp://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=11221&stc=1&d=1133204772

MJC
04-02-2007, 01:27 PM
EOS stands for Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal™, which is the waveguide.
and the pics answered my question. I assume that the pics are the back.
So, as I said before, I think you need a different waveguide (bracket) to be able to mount the new tweeter.

gojbl
04-03-2007, 06:12 AM
EOS stands for Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal™, which is the waveguide.
and the pics answered my question. I assume that the pics are the back.
So, as I said before, I think you need a different waveguide (bracket) to be able to mount the new tweeter.

Now I understand. Thanks for the clarification....The original tweeter is formed or glued into the EOS. The new tweeter I have is...well, just the tweeter alone. I wonder if anyone out there knows where I can buy the tweeter/EOS set. The part number is 335663-001. Anyone?

MJC
04-03-2007, 08:13 AM
Now I understand. Thanks for the clarification....The original tweeter is formed or glued into the EOS. The new tweeter I have is...well, just the tweeter alone. I wonder if anyone out there knows where I can buy the tweeter/EOS set. The part number is 335663-001. Anyone?
If you got the new tweeter from JBL, then I'd check with them.

Titanium Dome
04-03-2007, 08:29 AM
Dear TD,

I have been searching high and low for a replacement tweeter for the S312 speaker with no luck.

JBL discontinued the part (335663-001, $51.40, for the first generation of S312). I ordered 338042-001 ($22.26, for the second generation of S312) but it does not fit. After many desperate searches I found your forum; it seems that you are the expert on this subject. Do you mind helping me locate this part, or point me to the right direction? I am running out of resources. Thank you.

Unfortunately that tweeter is not available new from JBL (or from its Harman sibling Audax, the original manufacturer). I asked a couple of guys on the French Audax forum about availability in France and they wrote that it's not available there either, unless one finds NOS (new old stock) on someone's shelf.

The good news is it was used in a lot of JBL speakers: S26, S38, S310, S312, S412P, PC600, and PT800. Sometimes it was a slight variant: 335663-002.

If it were me, I keep an eye open on ebay (or elsewhere) for an original S Series speaker (or pair) that's seen better days or is being parted out. Grab it cheap, and get the part you need that way. As you've seen, S**IIs won't do—wrong tweeter, and neither will a PC600 or PT800—much too expensive.

If you can read French, you can monitor ebay France and look for an Audax TM025 but you still won't get an EOS Waveguide with it. That's why grabbing the part from an existing speaker is likely to be the better way.

gojbl
04-05-2007, 09:24 AM
I am so thankful for joining this forum and very grateful for the help of MJC and Titanium Dome. If I did this sooner it would have saved me a lot of time and frustration. Thanks again.

TD, I will definitely take your advice of trying ebay.

Titanium Dome
04-09-2007, 06:58 PM
Here's a shot of the TM025, 904Ti, 906Ti, and 908Ti, appearing to glow with musical fire within their Ti diaphragms. I was trying to make a new avatar.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:30 AM
After some comprehensive searching, I managed to dig into the Archives Audax or LISTE DES DOCUMENTS AUDAX DISPONIBLES to find an entire family of TM025 dome tweeters. There are both textile versions and Ti versions. Applications and housings are varied and include complete units with flanges for mounting direct on the baffle, adapters for using in horns, autosound mountings, elongated adapters, round adapters, and "snap in" models. Both textile domes and Ti domes come in 8 Ohm and 4 Ohm versions.

After some comparisons to the very limited info supplied by JBL and an examination of one of the Performance Series tweeters, sans EOS Waveguide and black plastic adapter, it appears the Performance Series uses the TM025C3 "snap in" model, thought it's not really snapped in as much as molded or glued into the unique adapter that attaches it into the EOS Waveguide. There may be other differences since it was a custom application.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:33 AM
Here's the first snapshot of the technical data.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:35 AM
Here then is part two:

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:37 AM
Lastly, here's part three:

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:37 AM
Here's a shot of the rear of the unit, minus the EOS Waveguide and the black plastic adapter. Compare it to the drawing on the tech sheet (first part above). I turned so that it would have the same orientation as in the front/rear drawing. Of course, the upside down JBL parts sticker obscures any Audax markings underneath.

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 11:38 AM
Here's a closer look at the tech sheet drawing for a closer comparison. The small notch at the bottom is not visible in my photo due to the shadow cast by the housing. When I applied a mask to extract the driver from the background, the shadow came with it.

JBLnsince1959
05-19-2007, 01:48 PM
:applaud::applaud::applaud:

johnaec
05-19-2007, 01:56 PM
I wonder why all the different curves previously posted have the JBL version dropping ~5 dB above 15K? Maybe the Audax info is from an updated version... :dont-know

John

Titanium Dome
05-19-2007, 03:32 PM
I wonder why all the different curves previously posted have the JBL version dropping ~5 dB above 15K? Maybe the Audax info is from an updated version... :dont-know

John

If the JBL curves were done installed in the cabinet with the EOS Waveguide and the little "cap" over the driver, that might explain it. :dont-know

The Audax sheet says Nov '98.

zakhaku
06-02-2007, 04:52 PM
I am moving and have decided to sell this whole system. It is still under manufacturer's warranty. I am asking $7000 OBO. I have significant feedback on both ebay and Audioogon, and would be willing to conduct the transaction through those websites if needed. The setup includes:

- 4 X PT800 performance series bookshelf speakers
- 2 X Matching subwoofers
- 1 X Center Channel
- 1 X JBL AV1B Surround Processor
- 1 X JBL AVA7 7 channel amplifier.

Everything works perfectly. Thank you.

Titanium Dome
06-02-2007, 07:43 PM
I am moving and have decided to sell this whole system. It is still under manufacturer's warranty. I am asking $7000 OBO. I have significant feedback on both ebay and Audioogon, and would be willing to conduct the transaction through those websites if needed. The setup includes:

- 4 X PT800 performance series bookshelf speakers
- 2 X Matching subwoofers
- 1 X Center Channel
- 1 X JBL AV1B Surround Processor
- 1 X JBL AVA7 7 channel amplifier.

Everything works perfectly. Thank you.

Hey zakhaku, you should post this in the forum "Lansing Product Marketplace" for maximum exposure.

Are the subs the PS1400 or the HTPS400 models?

Don C
06-16-2007, 06:35 PM
This setup doesn't look very good (yet), but it sounds fantastic. It's just set up this way for testing. I'm happy to be a new member of the inverted Ti Dome club.

Titanium Dome
06-16-2007, 09:31 PM
Is that one of those Fosgate Audionics subs with an LE14H-1 in it?

If so, it probably mates up quite nicely.

Don C
06-16-2007, 09:50 PM
Yes, that's exactly what it is.

JBLnsince1959
06-17-2007, 05:55 AM
Yes, that's exactly what it is.


Hi Don:

details about the crossover from the bass to the 800 and it's Freq would be appreciated;)

Titanium Dome
06-17-2007, 08:36 AM
Is that one of those Fosgate Audionics subs with an LE14H-1 in it?

If so, it probably mates up quite nicely.


Yes, that's exactly what it is.

You know, I just missed on a pair of those a while back. I think they were on ebay from some iSoldIt franchisee in CA. Did you beat me out on those? :biting: :D

The volume of the enclosure seems more LE14H-x friendly. How do you like their performance? I have three FA subs with LE120H-1 drivers in them, and they're quite the performers when fed 200+W each.

My FA 12 inchers are front-firing, while those 14 inchers are originally down-firing. Have you tried them both ways to see how the sound is affected? I would imagine you get better integration the way you have them, but that's only an assumption that experimentation can affirm or dispel.

Don C
06-17-2007, 09:32 AM
The Fosgate FS400 subs were on ebay a few years ago. Someone bought them, and was apparently unhappy with the condition, as there are lots of chips on the corners. So they went back up for auction again with description of the problems and a BIN of $179.00! I guess he wanted a quick sale. It was local pickup, so I got them. The story is in the archives here.
The crossover setup is just pulled right off of the XPLs that you can see just behind the stack in the picture. They are bi-amped, using an active crossover, with 18db/octave slope and 300Hz crossover point. The amps are a pair of Acurus A250s. It's fine for this application. I'm considering getting a better AV processor, then I'd just use the 80hz system that's built in to it.
The subwoofer is designed to be used facing down, that's why they have the blocks on the front surface, they are supposed to space the woofer up from the floor. I'm not going to use them that way, especially not with the 300hz crossover point. I'm considering some new boxes, but I may just saw those blocks off and make a grille. The performance difference between the bass of the Fosgates and the XPLs is pretty small. The Fosgates have a tiny advantage in low extension, but they're also slightly less efficient requiring an adjustment to the crossover.

Titanium Dome
07-15-2007, 08:06 PM
There's been lots of original Performance Series gear on the market lately, PT800s and PS1400s galore. PC600s are still rare, though. There is a semi-glut of the newer Performance amps and processors, too, Where is this leading?

I just received a JBL Performance AVA7 amp that I bought off ebay for $550. Considering its Lexicon heritage and $3000 retail price, that's a good acquisition. At 55 pounds, it's a solid little bugger. I'll be hooking it up and checking it out this week.

Don C
07-15-2007, 08:32 PM
In case anyone didn't notice, the performance series is once again available at harmanaudio.com.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

MJC
07-16-2007, 06:11 PM
In case anyone didn't notice, the performance series is once again available at harmanaudio.com.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM
That's because they are factory refurbs. Just recently there was a dealer in Jersey selling refurbed Lexicon RV-8 receivers for near 1/2 price. In the case of the RV-8s they had a bad chip, that would shut it down, so Harman replaced the chip and sold them as refurbs.
I'd like to know the reason for the PS refurbs.

Don C
07-16-2007, 06:51 PM
When I received my PT800s, there was a buzz coming from one speaker. It turned out that the surround was coming loose from the cone on the eight inch woofer. A little bit of glue fixed it. I assumed that it was an isolated incident, but it could be more common. Actually, I hope that it's something like this, and not a problem with the electronics in the sub. I'd hate to think that they didn't iron out those kind of problems after the pb12/psw1200/psw1500 disaster.

Titanium Dome
07-16-2007, 09:00 PM
I'd hate to think that they didn't iron out those kind of problems after the pb12/psw1200/psw1500 disaster.

Yes, that would bite :biting: big time. So far so good; my older ones are now 4.5 years old and... (don't say it, don't say it).

reconed
07-17-2007, 04:54 AM
The rubber surround on my 4 inch driver is split. I think it must have been damaged during shipping. Is there a kit available to fix it?

Don C
07-17-2007, 07:18 AM
I'd buy another driver. Soon, as they may not be available if you wait.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/partlist.asp?Parts=PT800BLK&BrandId=JBL&MarketId=HOM

reconed
07-17-2007, 07:57 AM
Agreed - I just ordered one yesterday -- $132 shipped. I thought there may be some value left in the old driver, especially if I could get the surround repaired or fix it myself.

It is surprising to me how there is no noticable audible effect from the split in the surround, which is actually much worse that what it looks like in the picture.

MJC
07-17-2007, 08:17 PM
I'd buy another driver. Soon, as they may not be available if you wait.
http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/partlist.asp?Parts=PT800BLK&BrandId=JBL&MarketId=HOM

Better not blow up the tweeters, it sez discontinued. How can they be discontinued for speakers that are still available?

Don C
07-17-2007, 10:12 PM
It's fair to conclude that the PT800s are no longer being produced, but that they are still available until existing stock is sold.

MJC
07-19-2007, 07:33 PM
It's fair to conclude that the PT800s are no longer being produced, but that they are still available until existing stock is sold.
They have been around for about 7 years, but JBL, only a year to two ago, made a big thing about increasing the PS lineup, to include in-wall and in-ceilng speakers.
Synthesis does have the S4VC (http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S4VC&Language=ENG&Country=CA&Region=USA), which is the THX, in-wall version of the PT800, but the the PT800 does make a very good looking on-wall speaker. Even more so with all the flat panel, wall mounted displays now available.

MJC
07-27-2007, 07:05 PM
Looking at the product support page on the JBL site shows the 14" sub driver no longer available. So it looks like another nail in the coffin for the PS series.
But Synthesis dealers weren't using the PS1400 on installs anyway for a HT PS system, using the HTPS400 instead.
The Harman online store still shows the entire series available for refurb units.

Titanium Dome
07-27-2007, 07:52 PM
No guarantees, but generally there is a key difference between "Not Available" and discontinued. As long as the Add to wish list link is there, they'll take a waiting list and when enough interest is there they'll do a run of the speakers. If there isn't sufficient interest, then no speakers.

Also, the LE14H-3 is used in the current 1400 Array.

MJC
07-28-2007, 06:23 AM
Ever since I talked to Ron Rouse, Synthesis West Coast Area Manager, last summer, I've wondered how many pairs of PS1400s have been sold, compared to the number of PT800s. It was Ron who told me that most, if not all, Synthesis Dealers used the HTPS400 for PS HT installs, instead of the PS1400. Which makes perfect sense, smaller box and more power and THX to boot.
Of coarse that doesn't take into account any pairs of PT800s/PS1400s that were bought to use as a full range stereo setup only.

Titanium Dome
07-28-2007, 07:16 AM
Yes, the HTPS works very well, especially in a HT environment. That driver is something to behold in person. I posted pictures of one that I took out of an HTPS400 to show everyone earlier in this thread.

Recently, there was one of the drivers on ebay that was offered twice at a $99 starting bid. There were no takers. The third time it was offered at a $75 starting bid, so I put in a bid and now it's mine at that ridiculous price.

I think it was a good deal.

MJC
07-28-2007, 08:23 AM
Recently, there was one of the drivers on ebay that was offered twice at a $99 starting bid. There were no takers. The third time it was offered at a $75 starting bid, so I put in a bid and now it's mine at that ridiculous price.

I think it was a good deal.
Had I been looking and seen it, I probably would have bid on it. The two SUB1500s I have really do a superb job. But, it would be interesting to hear the result of having a HTPS in addition to the 1500s.

Titanium Dome
07-28-2007, 08:59 AM
All three times it was on ebay it was a ten day auction. The listing was not well assembled, but the pictures revealed what he had. I ascertained in advance just :wtf: he had done to remove the "cover" as he calls it.

Titanium Dome
07-28-2007, 09:07 AM
Speaking of ads that work against the seller and for the acute observer, what does this describe?

Black JBL Cabinet Speakers System NR

It describes just about every consumer JBL in production over the past decade.

So how about this description?


*** This is a three star item make sure you read and understand the conditions before proceeding.
Manufactured by JBL, that says a lot

Solid good looking cabinet
2 Main Speaker and two others built in speaker
Color: Black
Dimensions:

26 1/4 Inches Wide
11 5/8 Inches High
7 3/4 Inches Tall

So that's three stars out of five, apparently. If you were searching for a particular JBL speaker or a specific Series, you'd never get a hit with that description.

So, what is it?

Titanium Dome
07-29-2007, 02:09 PM
OK, luckily there was one picture.

johnaec
07-29-2007, 04:54 PM
So, what is it?I saw it. ;) I've made a number of scores off bad descriptions... :)

John

MJC
07-29-2007, 05:01 PM
Yep, that's a PC600, as you know, guess the idiot didn't bother to look on the back of the speaker for the model #, to use in the description.

Titanium Dome
07-29-2007, 07:10 PM
I saw it. ;) I've made a number of scores off bad descriptions... :)

John


Yep, that's a PC600, as you know, guess the idiot didn't bother to look on the back of the speaker for the model #, to use in the description.

Yep. With some cooperation from John, I got it for $331. (Thanks again.)

As difficult as these are proving to find on the market, that's a great price. The seller could easily have gotten more.

We seem to be up to our elbows in PT800s lately, and there are a number of PT800/PS1400 combos showing up, but the PC600 and HTPS400 are still rare.

MJC
07-29-2007, 07:30 PM
Yep. With some cooperation from John, I got it for $331.

Buy it for a spare, did you?
I haven't been looking for any PS lately, been thinking more about what turntable I want to get to replace my '79 Yamaha. And none of them worth having are cheap.

MJC
07-31-2007, 06:40 AM
I was bidding on a pair of Beech PT800s last night, but when the bid got to $600 I stopped. I only wanted them if I could get them for under $300/ea, as I really didn't need them. I was going to put them on the back wall of the HT to replace a pair of L212s. And it would have been a local pickup, as the seller was in Reno.

Titanium Dome
07-31-2007, 05:10 PM
Each PT800 has about $450 worth of components in it, including the NLA TM025 Ti tweeter. The PC600 has about $600 worth. These general figures do not include the cabinet, the EOS Waveguide, or things like internal wiring, acoustical filler, etc., but do include the grille and other available parts.

Getting the PC600 as a "spare" was not as much of a consideration as the value of the parts themselves, including the two 6" 906TI drivers at $167.96 each, the 904Ti at $126.40, the network at $61.35, and the grille at $44.30. While the TM025 Ti tweeter is valued at a mere $51.40, since it is NLA, one might consider it priceless. ;)

The good news for interested parties is that I should be out of the Performance Series acquisition game as far as PT800s and PC600s are concerned. I really do have enough. If I see any more, I'll be certain--now--to notify LH members in the marketplace thread.

However, I can't make the same promise regarding the PS1400 or HTPS400 quite yet. :o:

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2007, 07:25 PM
However, I can't make the same promise regarding the PS1400 or HTPS400 quite yet. :o:


so is this a case of when "Tooo much is never enough";)

thrasher8
07-31-2007, 09:08 PM
Did the retail price of the PT800 go up?

I remember it was orginally $899 each...but the Harmon site is now showing $1,500 each! :banghead:

MJC
08-01-2007, 12:54 AM
Did the retail price of the PT800 go up?

I remember it was orginally $899 each...but the Harmon site is now showing $1,500 each! :banghead:
When the PS was first reviewed a five channel setup was about $6900. Or $900/ea main, including the center and another $2400 for the pair of subs.

But now JBL shows two different prices for the PT800. On the PT800 products page they show MSRP of $1700/ea. At the Harman online store, under "specials" they show refurbs for $1050/ea and the regular MRP of $1500/ea.
At this time, the PS is still JBL's rop of the line, dome tweeter based system. The Project Array, K2 and DD66000 are all horn loaded systems.

thrasher8
08-02-2007, 12:41 AM
Thanks for the update MJC!

These speakers must be good for them to go UP in price after a few years :p

MJC
08-02-2007, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the update MJC!

These speakers must be good for them to go UP in price after a few years :p
They're very good, JBL's top of the line dome tweeter based system.
You can see by my avatar, how much they look like the L212s. Tho, that L212 is custom.

thrasher8
08-02-2007, 10:28 PM
Thanks again MJC

Have you used the L212 for your main speakers and the PT800s for your surround speakers?

Wonder if that set up would work.

MJC
08-02-2007, 11:03 PM
Thanks again MJC

Have you used the L212 for your main speakers and the PT800s for your surround speakers?

Wonder if that set up would work.
I built up a stereo L212 to a 7 channel all L212. And it was very good.
Then I managed to get 5 PT800s, so now only 2 back channels are L212s. They're a bit different in sound, but not much. The main difference, for HT, is the PT800s are much faster, being they're all Titanium. But the mid-bass of the PT800 isn't quite as robust as the 112A.
Also, as DVD-A/SACD are 5 channel only, all the speakers used are identical.
I still use my mirror image L212s for an all analog system, with a turntable as its only source.

thrasher8
08-03-2007, 12:46 AM
Thanks for the info MJC! Nice set up :)

Do you have your main PT800s paired with the PC1400s or do you use something else for the subwoofer?

Thanks again!

MJC
08-03-2007, 04:17 PM
No PS1400s. But a pair of JBL SUB1500, that are for VLF. Currently powering them with an 800wpc Crown K2 amp. The Sub1500 were drivers that JBL Pro built for the Revel Sub15.




Thanks for the info MJC! Nice set up :)

Do you have your main PT800s paired with the PC1400s or do you use something else for the subwoofer?

Thanks again!

thrasher8
08-03-2007, 09:31 PM
Wow...your set up is super sweet MJC

Thanks...will give me ideas...am thinking of purchasing some refurbished PT via Harmon.

Thanks again :)

MJC
08-05-2007, 06:29 PM
I just saw, on ebay, the PS pre/pro and 7 channel amp with a starting bid of $2500, and a bin of $3000. The guy mentioned that he will also be selling his entire PS speaker system.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LQQK-JBL-PERFORMANCE-SERIES-AV1-PORCESSOR-AVA7-AMP_W0QQitemZ120148298746QQihZ002QQcategoryZ14978Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Don C
08-05-2007, 10:19 PM
That sounds eerily similar to zakhaku's completed auction from a couple of month's ago. Be careful.

MJC
08-06-2007, 10:21 AM
That sounds eerily similar to zakhaku's completed auction from a couple of month's ago. Be careful.
I'm not going to be buying any of it. I was just sharing info.

Titanium Dome
08-06-2007, 01:36 PM
There are still some PT800s floating around out there for $600 or so each. A nice pair of PT800s and PS1400s went for $2400 ($600 each) so it'll be interesting to see the price points for the system.

Of course, I like to get my stuff for less than that... :yes: ...and besides, I'm out of the PT800 buying game... :bs: or so I said. No more PC600s, either. :biting:

You guys believe me, right? :blah:

JBLnsince1959
08-07-2007, 10:12 AM
Of course, I like to get my stuff for less than that... :yes: ...and besides, I'm out of the PT800 buying game... :bs: or so I said. No more PC600s, either. :biting:

You guys believe me, right? :blah:

sure.... and the Tooth Fairy is coming by my place soon for drinks .....:p

Titanium Dome
08-13-2007, 03:48 PM
So I'm cruising the Revel listings and see this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Revel-B12-Subwoofer_W0QQitemZ200140937461QQihZ010QQcategoryZ 3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm thinking, darn that cone looks familiar. It turns out that it's a 10" Aluminum cone with an SFG magnet powered by a 650W amp.
the family resemblance is uncanny.

First, his Revel B12, then one of my HTPS400 drivers.

Titanium Dome
08-13-2007, 03:50 PM
Of course the HTPS is a 12" Aluminum cone with an SFG magnet driven by a 1000W amp.

Still for some of you guys looking for an HTPS400, this might be a good alternative.*


*So I'm not posting this in the marketplace. :no: ;) :yes:

MJC
08-13-2007, 04:00 PM
So I'm cruising the Revel listings and see this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Revel-B12-Subwoofer_W0QQitemZ200140937461QQihZ010QQcategoryZ 3275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I'm thinking, darn that cone looks familiar. It turns out that it's a 10" Aluminum cone with an SFG magnet powered by a 650W amp.
the family resemblance is uncanny.

First, his Revel B12, then one of my HTPS400 drivers.
I'm surprised that Revel decided to build a sub that small. When they closed out the Sub15, which was the JBL SUB1500 driver, they went to the Sub30, which was a dual 15" active/passive design.

MJC
08-29-2007, 03:57 PM
While I was listening to Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, DVD-A style, on the PT800 system the thought came to me. What if an ultra tweeter was added to the top of the baffle just above the EOS waveguide, as is in the Studio L series?
When I had the L890s and listened to them on a daily basics, I remember getting a sensation, mentality, that I've never experienced with other speakers. Unfortunately, I've yet to hear the K2 or DD66000.
The subject as been discussed before, that even though we don't hear above 20khtz the brain reacts to frequencies above that.

But what tweeter to add? That is the main question. And of coarse, what additional parts to add to the xo? Would that make a great speaker better or what?

Robh3606
08-29-2007, 04:59 PM
Can you get a part number from JBL on the supertweeter in the 890?? That might be your easiest way to add one.

Rob:)

MJC
08-29-2007, 05:48 PM
Actually the JBL support shows that its not available.
In fact most of the parts for the L890 are not available.
And I doubt the one in the ES series is the same, completely different waveguide.
It must make a difference or they would use the same ultra in all series that have an ultra.

mikebake
08-29-2007, 06:22 PM
The subject as been discussed before, that even though we don't hear above 20khtz the brain reacts to frequencies above that.


If you can't hear it, how can "the brain" react?

ColdFyre22
08-30-2007, 06:36 AM
If you can't hear it, how can "the brain" react?

You can't hear it but i believe it has been proven that the inner ear can "feel" those >20khz frequencies.

pos
08-30-2007, 07:07 AM
With 44.1khz sampling of nowadays CD you could not hear it anyway, they are filtred by the ADC.
22.05khz is the maximal theoritical frequency you can reproduce with a 44.1khz sampling rate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist%E2%80%93Shannon_sampling_theorem

Titanium Dome
08-30-2007, 07:48 AM
We've touched on this before with regard to whether or not these UHFs are important. In addition to our various opinions, there is science on the subject, and it's convincing to me.

I believe that the impact of UHF is significant enough that the lack of an UHF driver is the single greatest deficit of the Performance Series. The Performance Series is an "old" design surrounded by newer designs. The Project Array Series, K2 Series, and Everest II Series all have UHF drvers, as do the Studio L Series and the upcoming ES Series.

Marketing smoke-and-mirrors or engineering triumph? Well, believe whatever the heck you want, but if you want a bit of science, try these.

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm

http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/3548

http://www.nhk.or.jp/strl/publica/labnote/lab486.html

There's more where those came from. :)

If I could, I'd add UHF drivers in (EOS Waveguides) to the PT800s in the front stacks at a minimum.

MJC
08-30-2007, 08:45 PM
If I could, I'd add UHF drivers in (EOS Waveguides) to the PT800s in the front stacks at a minimum.

That was my exact thought process. And if needed to gain enough space above the original EOS, I'd build a bubble out of Ash, that was hogged out for the ultra tweeter to set in. As has been done in various speakers of other brands.
But as I found out yesterday, the ultra for the Studio L series is not currently available. So at this time, that only leaves the beryllium compression driver of the K2 or DD66000 and those ain't cheap.
The only other series with ultras is the ES and they're still not available.



Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect

With about 7 months of listening to the L890s I believe that whole heartedly.

Titanium Dome
08-30-2007, 10:07 PM
Well, I have one 045Be. I suppose I could get another, but I doubt its efficacy in an EOS Waveguide. :dont-know

Titanium Dome
08-30-2007, 11:17 PM
You could try to score a pair of L810 bookshelf speakers and harvest the UHF drivers. You might even benefit from some of the crossover components.

MJC
08-30-2007, 11:50 PM
You could try to score a pair of L810 bookshelf speakers and harvest the UHF drivers. You might even benefit from some of the crossover components.
And use the Bi-Radial® horn, as the EOS waveguides don't seem to be available either. And it looks like there is enough space between the EOS and the top of the baffle for the horn.
Right now, there are more parts available for the PT800 than the Studio L.
The only part not available for the PT800 is the tweeter w/EOS.

ColdFyre22
08-31-2007, 06:36 AM
You could try to score a pair of L810 bookshelf speakers and harvest the UHF drivers. You might even benefit from some of the crossover components.

E-Warehouse has a pair of L810's at $259.90

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-JBL-Studio-L810-3-Way-Surround-Bookshelf-Speakers_W0QQitemZ120149465007QQihZ002QQcategoryZ1 4991QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

MJC
08-31-2007, 04:27 PM
If I was to buy a pair of Studio L speakers, for harvest purposes, I'd harvest more than just the ultra tweeters. I'd pull the EOS waveguides and mount them to the faces of the 066 tweeters on my CC L212s to see(hear) if they made a difference.
Ya, I saw those 810s.

aht3
08-31-2007, 05:29 PM
Nothing like a Frankenspeaker

:D

Titanium Dome
08-31-2007, 06:02 PM
If I was to buy a pair of Studio L speakers, for harvest purposes, I'd harvest more than just the ultra tweeters. I'd pull the EOS waveguides and mount them to the faces of the 066 tweeters on my CC L212s to see(hear) if they made a difference.
Ya, I saw those 810s.

Probably not as much difference as putting both the EOS Waveguides AND the 1" pure Ti tweeters in there (with a crossover adjustment)...;)

MJC
09-01-2007, 06:45 AM
Probably not as much difference as putting both the EOS Waveguides AND the 1" pure Ti tweeters in there (with a crossover adjustment)...;)
The EOS only enlarges the sweet spot and Ti isn't the be all to end all.
It would not be a perfect fit over the 066 hole in the baffle. The vertical dimension of the EOS is 3 3/4", the diameter of the 066 is 3 7/8".
But I might be able to make it look mostly right, by centering the EOS perfectly over the hole and put a bit of black putty in the remaining 3/32" gaps at the top and bottom.
I think the 066 still remains JBL's most expensive dome tweeter ever.
Of coarse the 435Be and 476Be drivers are much more costly, but they're both compression drivers.

mikebake
09-10-2007, 10:21 AM
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Service%20Bulletin/JBLTT2005-01.pdf

Titanium Dome
09-10-2007, 11:15 AM
Thanks, Mike.

My early production PT800s have the original tweeters in them without the washers. A subsequent pair I bought used has the second generation tweeters with the washers installed.

Now I know why.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2007, 11:17 AM
and Ti isn't the be all to end all.


I don't remember writing in my reply that it is. :)

mikebake
09-10-2007, 12:38 PM
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Owner%27s%20Manual/S4VC-HC-A%20OM.pdf

Zilch
09-10-2007, 04:41 PM
LEFT AND RIGHT SPEAKERS: If you have purchased a Synthesis Four Digital Home Theater System, then the model S4VC will serve as your front left and right main speakers.


Since the left and right speakers have been designed for maximum localization of sound, they should be placed with the center of the speakers at about the same height on screen as the actors would be, to aid in the illusion that the actors’ voices are coming directly from their on-screen images.


Ideally, the speakers will be placed about 45 degrees apart from each other, viewed from the listening position, so that the distance between the speakers is the same as each speaker’s distance from the listener (see Figure 1).






Equilateral is 60°, no?

MJC
09-10-2007, 06:28 PM
[/left]







Equilateral is 60°, no?

Yes, so 30* off the centerline from the center seat. But I've seen JBL recommend the degree spacing of the speakers, from the center seat to be 40*~60*.



I don't remember writing in my reply that it is. :)

You didn't, but you implied that TI is better than Al. The way I look at it they're both good, and the 066 in particular.:applaud:

I just saw today, that a PC600 when for $635, on ebay.

porschedpm
09-10-2007, 08:04 PM
I have a question that I can't find the answer to. I have the PT800/PS1400 combo and docked together. I am running power to these from a 300w/ch amp using conventional speaker wire. The question I have is: when wired in this configuration, is the internal amp in the PS1400 bypassed or is it always inline? And if the internal amp is always inline, does it also power the PT800. I looked in the owners guide and couldn't find the answers to these questions. What do you guys think.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2007, 08:23 PM
You didn't, but you implied that TI is better than Al. The way I look at it they're both good, and the 066 in particular.:applaud:

I just saw today, that a PC600 when for $635, on ebay.

Actually, all I implied was that it would be "different." ;)

That price on the PC600 is interesting since I got one off ebay last month for $331.