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MJC
08-02-2005, 06:53 PM
The single biggest impact would be charge coupled networks.

The sloped baffle and one edge ala 250Ti is not a bad idea at all if you're into building new boxes.

Building new boxes is the easy part, building new xovers, that's what takes real patience.
I thought that the PS xovers were couple charged networks.

Lancer
08-02-2005, 07:37 PM
Nope, not enough room for such beasts inside the stock boxes.
I believe all the main caps are NPE's and they are all bypassed with polys.

JBLnsince1959
08-03-2005, 11:38 AM
I believe all the main caps are NPE's and they are all bypassed with polys.

that's what it shows on the PS1400 paper posted WAY BACK there ( not that I know anything about crossover's or caps mind you, but I CAN read). I would assume that the 800's are the same.

I'm thinking seriously of doing the charge coupled networks ASAP . I was going to wait until next year ( when I got some money for Mundorf caps), but I think I'll like to hear it sooner using other caps for the mids, mid-bass and bass and maybe ( just maybe) mundorfs for just the highs. I can always redo it later with Mundorfs for the mids and possibly mid-bass if I like them and get the money. The 1400 is out of the question using very expensive caps, if I'm reading it correctly.

Mr. Widget
08-03-2005, 12:05 PM
The single biggest impact would be charge coupled networks.


I was under the impression that charge coupled networks were a clever method that JBL developed to get good results with less costly parts. Wouldn't it be simpler and more to the point to replace those NPEs with audio grade caps?

Widget

Lancer
08-03-2005, 01:24 PM
Do whatever you want. I know what I would do and that's pretty much all that matters.

Wouldn't it be simpler and more to the point to replace those NPEs with audio grade caps?

I doubt they would fit neatly.

JBLnsince1959
08-03-2005, 02:01 PM
I was under the impression that charge coupled networks were a clever method that JBL developed to get good results with less costly parts. Wouldn't it be simpler and more to the point to replace those NPEs with audio grade caps?

Widget

A point well taken and I respect that, I've given that some thought. however to simply state the charged couple networks are a way to make cheaper sound better I would disagree... to state that would be to gross over a very important ( and IMHO) and true work of genius from Mr. GT and miss the point completely.

the whole point of charged couple Networks ( CCN) is to eliminate some basic charactieristics of caps that degrade the sound much like hysteresis from inductors....

( from Project K2 .S5500 project Overview copyright 1993 JBL Inc)

"caps do not exhibit hystersis, per se, but they have a behavior with similar results, called dielectric absorption. When an audio signal passing thru a cap changes polarity, that is, it passes through zero volts, the current flow changes direction. But it does not do so immediately; due to dielectic absorption, the cap "remembers" it's previous state and resists change. This leads to blurring of the transients in the drive signal, a highly audible distortion.

By Biasing the caps so that the signal does not reverse current flow thru the cap, zero crossing distortion is eliminated."

this is just a quicky - I've got to go to work. I'll hit it big time tonight when I have time and maybe do the science more justice.

Lancer
08-03-2005, 02:21 PM
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3555

JBLnsince1959
08-03-2005, 02:30 PM
thanks Lancer :applaud: , I couldn't remember where on this site I got the information from a few years ago, I spent 10 minutes looking and finally just found my printed source. That will save me from a lengthy post tonight. I'll just let everyone read it and nuff said.

I'll post again tonight tho after work. :D

JBLnsince1959
08-03-2005, 03:48 PM
So to finish, I'd said my philosphy on this is to do both:

1. Use audio grade caps ( the best I can afford - hopefully - double wound) AND

2. C.C.N.

I plan to use different caps in each crossover and do A/B for my ears to see which cap (s) I think sounds best...

the bitch will be the caps for the PS1400, if doing C.C.N and staying with their design for using the built-in amp we will need over 600 UF if I understand it correctly.....

personally I'm playing with the idea of by-passing the built-in amp and all it's circuits...we'll see.

Titanium Dome
08-03-2005, 04:56 PM
personally I'm playing with the idea of by-passing the built-in amp and all it's circuits...we'll see.


Probably a worthy pursuit with a reasonable chance of improvement, but it'd be worth getting the full tech info on the supplied amp if it's available anywhere. It's my experience that amp topology has an effect here, and at least you'd know where your starting point was.

I have to admit, I haven't looked into the amp beyond the standard blurb at the JBL Web site and what's in the owner's manual specs.

JBLnsince1959
08-03-2005, 08:13 PM
Probably a worthy pursuit with a reasonable chance of improvement, but it'd be worth getting the full tech info on the supplied amp if it's available anywhere. It's my experience that amp topology has an effect here, and at least you'd know where your starting point was.



yes, I agree with you completely, it's not something I would want to do half-ass or as a knee-jerk reaction. That would have to be though out completely.


And mostly it's from a matter of just keeping things simple. If I build the external crossovers and I know that they will always be stacked for stereo then theres' no need for me to pass the signal thru that stuff. Just Keep It Simple. ( also, I firmly believe that the less the signal passes thru the less chance for it being changed for the worst). Personally I find nothing wrong with the built-in amp, it's very good...

Also, If someday I really get crazy and try to build a 250 performance series then the crossover is done.

But I know what you mean about information, or the lack of. There's not even a brochure for these speakers to explain more to the customer or if there is they aren't making it available. Can't get one from the dealers :no: :dont-know , nothing on their web site :banghead: ( there is for the TiK series)

I'm really amazed at the extraordinary effort the marketing dept. has gone thru to keep the public completely ignorant about these speakers. I can just hear the conversatation now if someone were to call JBL.

JBL: Hello...
US: yes, I was calling about the performance series speakers you have.

JBL: You...you KNOW about these?
US: why yes...I was wondering...

JBL: Let me interrupt one moment.. and JUST how did you hear about these? Not that I'm saying they exist mind you.
US: well from a few places.....on your web site and from a thread on the Lansing Heritage web site. They do exist don't they?

JBL: I can't tell you that!
US: excuse me???? Why can't you tell if me they even exist.

JBL: Well, I really can't say, because the marketing dept. and higher ups are still trying to figure out what to do with them.
US: then they do exist.

JBL: I didn't say that....
US : Is there anybody I can talk to?

JBL: about what?
US : the Performance Series

JBL: what's that?
US: well... thank you..I think

JBL: gald to have helped you, have a nice day

I just remembered that someone said that people from JBL read this thread to find out what we think, for a moment I had a feeling of Political Correctness and almost erased what I wrote, then I came to my senses.

Mr. Widget
08-03-2005, 08:47 PM
I'm really amazed at the extraordinary effort the marketing dept. had gone to keep the public in complete ignorant about these things.

If you guys hadn't made some 500+ posts on these speakers, I know I'd never have run into them or even been made aware of their existence. I certainly never would have looked up their specs or found out that today's JBL was really this inept in marketing their product.

Widget

Titanium Dome
08-03-2005, 11:12 PM
We are facing a paradox or two here.

We really do admire JBL and its capable workers, from the engineers and designers to the jig makers and tail offs (the folks who stack the boxes on the pallets). We're grateful for the commitment that Harman International has to serious speaker testing and development and for all the information it freely shares.

We're also grateful for the continuing support that JBL receives in a company with two other significant speaker lines and for the fact that it's still a full line top to bottom division that competes well in virtually all market segments. We're grateful that the Consumer and Pro groups provide such lengthy support for products that we hold dear and for the individuals who help us when questions and needs arise.

I personally am very gratified that JBL developed the Performance Series and gave me a line that has amazing bang for the buck. Its unique characteristics and innovative design set hit me squarely in the eyes, ears, mind, and heart, and I could even afford it. As much as I'd like K2s or Synthesis, the Performance Series is right where I need something great to be, and it is great, no doubt about it.

The first paradox, as we decry it, is that such a wonderful conception and beautifully executed product remains a blank, a question mark on the loudspeaker landscape, when truly it could take on anything in its market segment and kick it to the curb for Tuesday morning pick up. Is this indeed a marketing blunder, or is it something else? Does JBL even do its own marketing? I don't know, but it seems a paradox to do something this well then not talk about it.

The second paradox, which applies to JBLnsince1959, mikebake, Lancer, myself, and perhaps a few others, is that if JBL did do a good job of promoting and selling these, then none of us would enjoy the faux celebrity of having the indside track on these marvels. So, I think we kind of like that, even though we state that JBL should be doing a better job with this line. :yes: (Well, I'm only speaking for myself, of course. ;) )

I bring this up because despite the criticism we might level at some aspects of the Performance Series story, there's no doubt that we admire the product, the people who make it, and the company that produced it.

And the :blah: :blah: :blah: is done. :D

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 07:15 AM
We are facing a paradox or two here.

We really do admire JBL and its capable workers, from the engineers and designers to the jig makers and tail offs (the folks who stack the boxes on the pallets). We're grateful for the commitment that Harman International has to serious speaker testing and development and for all the information it freely shares.

We're also grateful for the continuing support that JBL receives in a company with two other significant speaker lines and for the fact that it's still a full line top to bottom division that competes well in virtually all market segments. We're grateful that the Consumer and Pro groups provide such lengthy support for products that we hold dear and for the individuals who help us when questions and needs arise.

I personally am very gratified that JBL developed the Performance Series and gave me a line that has amazing bang for the buck. Its unique characteristics and innovative design set hit me squarely in the eyes, ears, mind, and heart, and I could even afford it. As much as I'd like K2s or Synthesis, the Performance Series is right where I need something great to be, and it is great, no doubt about it.

The first paradox, as we decry it, is that such a wonderful conception and beautifully executed product remains a blank, a question mark on the loudspeaker landscape, when truly it could take on anything in its market segment and kick it to the curb for Tuesday morning pick up. Is this indeed a marketing blunder, or is it something else? Does JBL even do its own marketing? I don't know, but it seems a paradox to do something this well then not talk about it.

The second paradox, which applies to JBLnsince1959, mikebake, Lancer, myself, and perhaps a few others, is that if JBL did do a good job of promoting and selling these, then none of us would enjoy the faux celebrity of having the indside track on these marvels. So, I think we kind of like that, even though we state that JBL should be doing a better job with this line. :yes: (Well, I'm only speaking for myself, of course. ;) )

I bring this up because despite the criticism we might level at some aspects of the Performance Series story, there's no doubt that we admire the product, the people who make it, and the company that produced it.

And the :blah: :blah: :blah: is done. :D

I agree completely( and what I said was more tongue-in-cheek than anything else)...and to be fair to the marketing people, NO ONE in a corp. as large as that lives in a vacuum..and many decisions are made at a higher level and they have to work within those decisions. Somewhere in the Corp. decisions were made that pissed off a lot of dealers ( from what I've heard..I could be wrong) and even if the salespeople were to really hit the streets, alot of dealers won't touch it..

It's Ok that JBL made deals with BB and other mass marketers with some low cost speakers as long as JBL would still create better speakers for the "higher-end" market that would ONLY go into those dealers. Personally I really like the S312's, they are some of the most bang-for- the-buck speakers I've heard and GT created some really fine speakers for the masses. I would no sooner sell my S312's than I would my PS Speakers. ( thinking of C.C.N those too just for grins :bouncy: )


But, really, there's not even a Brochure about the PS speakers( if there is it's not to be found). You would think that with speakers with so much going for them and the fact that they are so radical in design that a complete brochure discussing the technology and WHY it's so superior would be in order. ( make us drool, give us a reason to dream about these things, tease us, make me toss and turn in bed at night.. etc) Maybe I'm just an old-timer here and wish for the days when you could get a brochure and READ about all the design goodies and why they're so good or better than other cone speakers. Here's stuff I'll like to see discussed:

1. tit-domes VS cones - words and graphs etc.
2. Iso-Baffle - what the hell is that and what does it do, why is it better than other baffles
3. Wave-guide info - how about some pictures showing us polar graphs comparing the Eliptical Oblate Spheroidal wave guide to regular tweeters.
4. distortion graphs which compares "resonanes inherent in cones materials" to the the tit-domes.
5. Show me how ( and how much) the tit-domes "nearly pistonic motion eliminates uncontrollable flexing found in conventional cones".
6. show me the " ruler-flat frequency response well beyond the crossover point" and how it's superior to cones.

well there's more but you get point.... AND to be fair yes, on their web site they have a little technology page where a few things are mentioned ( one to two sentenes tho), but mostly is discussing the conventional speakers), NOTHING discussing the PS speakers in particular...

JBLnsince1959
08-04-2005, 07:44 AM
I'm going to have to get to work... BUT I would just like to say once and for all......

These speakers are some of the most phenomenal sounding speakers I've EVER heard..BIG TIME...PEROID,... and I don't say this lightly. And when you consider the price ( even retail), I get speakless. I have even lost my desire for the K2 ( I've been saving)

I've heard alot in my years, And what really amazes me is that this sound is coming from a HT, modular design. I put on a CD last night that I hadn't heard in years ( misplaced it in the move), it's called Mystic Traveler..the journey by Chis Spheeris ( from the documentary TV series)......WOW, it was "hey hon..could you get me a pair of Depends.. this is sounding too good" :D type of thing...

There are only two issues that I have with the PS speakers:
1. the brackets
2. The mid-bass FOR MY EARS ( IMO) could be a little fuller, but then I'm use to the mid-bass by some big speakers so I'm jaded by them. However, with a little tweating I've got them right where I want them :applaud:

time to work.......

MJC
08-04-2005, 09:00 PM
yes, I agree with you completely, it's not something I would want to do half-ass or as a knee-jerk reaction. That would have to be though out completely.


And mostly it's from a matter of just keeping things simple. If I build the external crossovers and I know that they will always be stacked for stereo then theres' no need for me to pass the signal thru that stuff. Just Keep It Simple. ( also, I firmly believe that the less the signal passes thru the less chance for it being changed for the worst). Personally I find nothing wrong with the built-in amp, it's very good...

With all the new electronics that are now available, such as the HK AVR 635, or the Lexicon MC12v4 xovers in subs aren't really needed. The built-in xovers with filters, eq, etc the pre/pro or receiver does it all.

The sub1500s I'm using have no electronics at all. Just wire and huge speaker terminals. The 635 does the rest.

Titanium Dome
08-04-2005, 10:51 PM
With all the new electronics that are now available, such as the HK AVR 635, or the Lexicon MC12v4 xovers in subs aren't really needed. The built-in xovers with filters, eq, etc the pre/pro or receiver does it all.

The sub1500s I'm using have no electronics at all. Just wire and huge speaker terminals. The 635 does the rest.


This is true and works well when the modules are separated. When you've got three (going on four) PS1400s, the cabling gets a little ridiculous. My FAP T1 only has one sub out, so it's "replicator time" with every addition.

At least my Citation 5.0 had stereo sub outs. Hmmm, maybe time to switch a component.

MJC
08-05-2005, 05:54 AM
This is true and works well when the modules are separated. When you've got three (going on four) PS1400s, the cabling gets a little ridiculous. My FAP T1 only has one sub out, so it's "replicator time" with every addition.

At least my Citation 5.0 had stereo sub outs. Hmmm, maybe time to switch a component.

You don't have to have all the subs connected to the receiver. I'm using 5 subs. The three 12" subs are conected to speakers via cable. One to the center, and the other two to the SS.
Therefore, the center, SS are set to large, with the L/R mains, BS set to small.
With the sub set to on in the HK635 menu, any channel set to 'large' will play down to 40htz and xover to the big subs. All channels set to 'small' can have the xover set to what ever works best for them and xover to the big subs. Plus all LFE are sent to the 15" subs.

I was watching the movie "Core" last night, what a sound track.

BTW. I've never seen the optional P800 stands for sale @ the Harman online store.

FWIW. I had to jump all over a couple of clowns over at AVS last night, told them they don't know a f** thing about REAL JBLs and if they ever heard a set of 29 year old L212, 20 yo 250Ti or the current Performance Series, they would burn whatever speakers they had.

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 06:38 AM
With all the new electronics that are now available, such as the HK AVR 635, or the Lexicon MC12v4 xovers in subs aren't really needed. The built-in xovers with filters, eq, etc the pre/pro or receiver does it all.



True, but then I'm not doing HT or using AVR's, just stereo stuff, so the crossover's are going to be DIY passive. I've tried the 1400 and 800 stacked with active crossover and I didn't care for it( when I first got them, I've learned a lot since then). I'll try it again when I have the time.

Where I was talking about being careful was making sure the values were right for the crossover between the 1400 and 800 and for that I will need assistance from forum members as I'm brain-dead on electronics. I'm not sure I completely understand the circuits in the 1400

qxlxp
08-05-2005, 10:44 AM
I'm going to have to get to work... BUT I would just like to say once and for all......

These speakers are some of the most phenomenal sounding speakers I've EVER heard..BIG TIME...PEROID,... and I don't say this lightly.

i don't recall... have you heard the lsr 32/6332's ;)

Mr. Widget
08-05-2005, 11:15 AM
FWIW. I had to jump all over a couple of clowns over at AVS last night, told them they don't know a f** thing about REAL JBLs and if they ever heard a set of 29 year old L212, 20 yo 250Ti or the current Performance Series, they would burn whatever speakers they had.

Too bad they went away quietly muttering to themselves... "He's just one of those JBL nuts."

Oh well... we know you are right. I guess that's all that matters.:D


Widget

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 11:50 AM
i don't recall... have you heard the lsr 32/6332's ;)

I have listened to the lsr32's alot ( I'm looking for a pair also) and I really like them, but I have not heard the 6332's and I'm not sure what the difference is. I really like the LSR32's...

Now of course when I said the PS Speakers are "some of the most phenomenal sounding speakers I've EVER heard", I'm not impling that they are the BEST speakers I've heard ( there are "better" - for a whoooole lot more money), but when you factor everything in.... money, design, sound etc...they are incredible and phenomenal.

And like a lot of speakers you have to work with them a little ( the 4430 comes to mind, bi-polars, electrostatics... etc) and I think the sound has to grow on you also. I wasn't a big fan at first ( first month), but I am now....and like everything else in life it's a matter of individual taste.

I still have alot to do to get them "there" and in fact I'm just now ready to work with the speakers big time now that I have the room since selling my 4430's.

Titanium Dome
08-05-2005, 03:05 PM
BTW. I've never seen the optional P800 stands for sale @ the Harman online store.

Me neither. I saw a picture once, though, in one of the press releases of both stands, for PT800 and PC600. Can't find it at the moment...



FWIW. I had to jump all over a couple of clowns over at AVS last night, told them they don't know a f** thing about REAL JBLs and if they ever heard a set of 29 year old L212, 20 yo 250Ti or the current Performance Series, they would burn whatever speakers they had.

This could be a full-time commitment. I finally gave up in all but the most onerous cases. I still chime in to encourage people who are considering JBLs, since there will be several naysayers jumping at once when someone asks, "Should I get the JBL E50 or E80?"

Gosh, when they start recommending their Ascends, Paradigms, Polks, etc., it's one thing, but when they put down JBL speakers they've never even heard--my "sh!t-hits-the-fan" alarm goes off. Grrrr-r-r!

The Northridge E Series is one serious, bang-for-the-buck line, and if it serves as an entry point into JBL ownership, then that's fine with me, because they can meet or beat anything in their market segment.

Of course, that's another thing that gets me going: some moron who'll say the JBLs are not as good as his Ascends, but the frickin' Ascends he's referring to cost 40% more. :die:

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 04:04 PM
Of course, that's another thing that gets me going: some moron who'll say the JBLs are not as good as his Ascends, but the frickin' Ascends he's referring to cost 40% more. :die:

the Ascends are speaker wanta-be's ( IMHO) . :duck:

Polk's are really good speakers, I like their sound

JBLnsince1959
08-05-2005, 05:52 PM
the Ascends are speaker wanta-be's ( IMHO) . :duck:



Of course I'm only joking here. The ascends are very good speakers. If one was to compare them to the Northridge E Series, it would really be apples and oranges comparison. I haven't heard the new JBL mass produced series so I can't say.

MJC
08-05-2005, 06:04 PM
Too bad they went away quietly muttering to themselves... "He's just one of those JBL nuts."

Oh well... we know you are right. I guess that's all that matters.:D


Widget

I became a JBL man the first time I heard a Paragon, when I was 18 or 19.

MJC
08-05-2005, 06:15 PM
the Ascends are speaker wanta-be's ( IMHO) . :duck:

Polk's are really good speakers, I like their sound


I agree, I turned on an old Army buddy to Polks a couple of years ago. He wanted to buy a HT system for his wife's birthday, but he didn't want to spend the amount of money it would take to buy the PS. I told him "no matter what, make sure the main L/R speakers were the Polk towers, so they could also do music and would be better at doing ht anyway."

When my neighbor first moved in he had a Polk ht system, but all the speakers were the small ones. When he first heard my 7 L212s and the sub1500s, at the very beginning of a James Bond movie, his comment was, "now I know the difference between small speakers and large ones."
Shortly after he sold off his entire ht, except the rptv.

MJC
08-05-2005, 06:29 PM
Of course, that's another thing that gets me going: some moron who'll say the JBLs are not as good as his Ascends, but the frickin' Ascends he's referring to cost 40% more. :die:

Ok, but are the Ascends as good as the K2? I only ask, because I've never heard either.

Titanium Dome
08-05-2005, 06:36 PM
Ok, but are the Ascends as good as the K2? I only ask, because I've never heard either.

The best speaker Ascend ever dreamed of making couldn't sniff the emanations of the rear port of either K2 model. In fact, it couldn't sniff the emanations of my rear port, either. :moon:

Titanium Dome
08-05-2005, 06:38 PM
I became a JBL man the first time I heard a Paragon, when I was 18 or 19.

That's not how I became a man.

Oh, oh, I see: JBL man. :p

Titanium Dome
08-05-2005, 06:44 PM
the Ascends are speaker wanta-be's ( IMHO) . :duck:

Polk's are really good speakers, I like their sound


They're all pretty good speakers within their design goals. I've heard some pretty good Polks and some good Ascends and Paradigms. I've heard Infinity speakers that were gorgeous and some that were grotesque.

Of course, being in the Harman family, I'm sure the Infinity brand went through some testing times just like JBL. There are a couple of classic Infinity speakers I wouldn't mind having.

But now with the Performance Series, I have what I want, so I'm less inclined to wander.

JBLnsince1959
08-06-2005, 05:02 PM
. When he first heard my 7 L212s and the sub1500s, at the very beginning of a James Bond movie, his comment was, "now I know the difference between small speakers and large ones."
Shortly after he sold off his entire ht, except the rptv.

God I love that kind of talk. :D

Yes, BIG BOY speakers do sound better..period ( when their JBL's :applaud: ) In SOME things size really does matter...

Titanium Dome
08-06-2005, 05:49 PM
Last night we had three other couples over for pizza and a movie night.

I recalibrated the CRT PJ earlier in the week, so it was spot on. We cleaned the house from top to bottom. (Yay!) I checked the channel trim and speaker calibrations. I bought an Emmylou Harris DVD-A for ambience. We brought up some sodas, beer, wine, and Sambuca. I hosed off the deck and furniture.

Ready!!

We ordered three big, gourment pizzas from Buonos in San Pedro to be delivered at 7:30 and waited for the guests. They all arrived on time! In CA!

We talked, ate, drank, listened to Emmylou in six-channel 192/24 in the background. Sweet. "Those speakers sound really good." Yep. "I've never seen anything like them. What are they?" JBL. "Really. They sound better than my uncle's speakers and he's a real hi-fi nut. He spent like 15 grand apiece on them." Uh-huh.

Finally, it's movie time. Everyone wants to see Winged Migration, not exactly a HT showpiece, but a very watchable documentary. Everyone's seated, PJ on, DVD loaded, lights off, volume surreptitiuosly boosted to -13.

Birds in surround. "My god, it sounds like they're in the room." "I feel like I'm outside." "Listen to those feathers ruffle, that beak click." "Is there a fly buzzing--oh, there it is! (on the screen) I thought it was buzzing my head."

After the avalanche scene: "Is this like Imax? It sounds just like Imax. My chair was moving. I could feel that in my toes."

Later: "Jeez, listen to those waves. It's deafening. The wind is howling. It's so darn real."

When the geese are shot unexpectedly by hunters: "OH MIGOD!! That scared me. I thought someone shot at the house! I hate gunfire!" The group's hunter responds: "It sounds just like my hunting gun. When's duck season?" Smirk.

Anyway, at the end, everyone enjoyed the flick, hugs all around, bye-bye, thanks so much, and

"Man you're lucky. That's the best movie experience I've ever had. Now I have to go home to my POS system. Gee, thanks."

"Thanks Dxxx. When can we come back? I'd like to hear Lord of the Rings on that system. I'll bet it sounds the way it's supposed to." Yes, it does.

And finally, "Thank you so much. I felt so close to those birds; it was like I was right there. When we watch movies at home or in the theater it's always real loud--boom, boom, boom--but it's never real. That was so REAL, like I was right there with them, hearing every sound along the way. The music was great, too. I loved it. I think Trevor and I need to look for some JBLs. Can you email us some info." You bet your sweet a...er, yes.

I love listening to these speakers. I love it even more when other people appreciate them so much and can tell the kind of special moment they're having because the speakers get out of the way and let the sound come to them. These Performance Series babes are great, even when it's only birds.

Huikyong, my GF, said, "That was wonderful. Let's do that again. Everyone was so impressed with OUR system." ;)

Yeah, our system.

MJC
08-06-2005, 09:28 PM
Huikyong, my GF, said, "That was wonderful. Let's do that again. Everyone was so impressed with OUR system." ;)

Yeah, our system.

Consider yourshelf lucky, you have the exact system you want, and your GF thinks of them as her's as well.

I've lost count how many wimps I've seen post to one forum or another about how they had to SETTLE for something less than they wanted. Just because their wife didn't want large speakers or didn't want to SEE the speakers. They appearently didn't have enough of a backbone to tell the bitch, this is what I'm getting, and that is that.

As it was when I bought my L212s, and they have been around for over a 1/4 of century. Twice as long as the ex. I should have bought the 250Ti as well.

Titanium Dome
08-06-2005, 11:28 PM
Consider yourshelf lucky, you have the exact system you want, and your GF thinks of them as her's as well.

It ain't bad, that's for sure. :banana:


I've lost count how many wimps I've seen post to one forum or another about how they had to SETTLE for something less than they wanted. Just because their wife didn't want large speakers or didn't want to SEE the speakers. They appearently didn't have enough of a backbone to tell the bitch, this is what I'm getting, and that is that.

Yeah, I read that a lot. "She lets me..." or "She didn't like it so I had to..."
OTOH, I got such a super deal on the first 5.1 portion of the Performance Series because some guy's wife in upper NY said, "Not in my house." So I'm not really complaining! :thmbsup:


As it was when I bought my L212s, and they have been around for over a 1/4 of century. Twice as long as the ex. I should have bought the 250Ti as well.

I was married for 28 years. That was eighteen good years, then the kids were gone...and in came the L7s, the LD player, the first projector, and the trouble began. (I had the L100s before I met her, so they got "grandfathered" in as long as they didn't play too loud.)

:argue: followed by :deal: followed by :drive: followed by :dj-party:

JBLnsince1959
08-07-2005, 07:18 AM
Consider yourshelf lucky, you have the exact system you want, and your GF thinks of them as her's as well.

.

Of course we must look at the full picture here. They're NOT married..... :D

Somewhere I believe I read where she wasn't too happy about all that wiring testing ;)

But seriously, it is nice when there's not a lot of hassel about this. I'm not married but live with someone so I pretty much get my way (with speakers that is.. :D it's MY money after all) and we have an agreement about which room is MINE...( altho I HEAR about in a passive/agressive manner)

I was thinking about this thread the other day and the fact that it's reached so many posts and really insome ways it's just getting started...Dome's got the Wire Test of the Century coming up. I'll be doing C.C.N and other things and then there's Mikebake..... By the way, what happened to him..last we heard ( July 2th)....


It'll be awhile; big backyard party weekend. 200 guests, big tent, live band on stage, chicken BBQ, beer trailer, big fireworks show a block away, then Star Wars episode one on the outdoor movie screen. Then, decompress.

Damn Mike if it takes a month to decompress from one of your parties, they must REALLY be good ones :D

anyway, this thread is starting to remind me of the proverbial "FLOATER TURD", somehow it just keeps floating to the top. :D

MJC
08-07-2005, 07:34 AM
It ain't bad, that's for sure. :banana:
Yeah, I read that a lot. "She lets me..." or "She didn't like it so I had to..."
OTOH, I got such a super deal on the first 5.1 portion of the Performance Series because some guy's wife in upper NY said, "Not in my house." So I'm not really complaining! :thmbsup:



I sure would like to find a deal like that for the PS. But it looks like I'll have to chomp on the $1050/speaker on the online store.

Considering inflation over the last 1/4 century, that's still a lot cheaper (per speaker) than the $1500 I paid for the L212/B212, BUT instead of buying three speakers, now its seven.

I'm not going to buy the subs, got 5 already. That's why I was asking about the stands a couple of days ago. And I probably won't get the PT600 either, being I like having LCRs across the front, as I do now. And the PT800 is roughly the same size as the L212 so I know it will fit below(and out front) of the screen.

Titanium Dome
08-07-2005, 10:17 AM
Of course we must look at the full picture here. They're NOT married..... :D

Key point, my friend, key point. This time I can take it all with me if need be.


Somewhere I believe I read where she wasn't too happy about all that wiring testing ;)

Well, had to put the wires away for the small gathering, and haven't gotten them back out. Trying to make the weekend a good one for her. ;)


I was thinking about this thread the other day and the fact that it's reached so many posts and really insome ways it's just getting started...Dome's got the Wire Test of the Century coming up. I'll be doing C.C.N and other things and then there's Mikebake..... By the way, what happened to him..

Yes, even on the stock side of the discussion, there's so much we don't know yet.


anyway, this thread is starting to remind me of the proverbial "FLOATER TURD", somehow it just keeps floating to the top. :D

Dammit! Now I'll be watching Caddyshack tonight.

JBLnsince1959
08-09-2005, 10:49 AM
I'm not going to buy the subs, got 5 already. That's why I was asking about the stands a couple of days ago. And I probably won't get the PT600 either, being I like having .

what type of sub's do you have? ( I may have missed this earlier)

mikebake
08-09-2005, 12:08 PM
I'm still alive; haven't hooked the PT800's up yet since getting them back from Giskard. Still awaiting the sub cabs.
Been busy with the big movie screen; did a big cruise-in thingie in Detroit at Biker Bobs Harley Davidson. JBL rocked the joint, I tell ya.
Also did a backyard party at a doctors 7400 sq ft pad, complete with pond, pool, fish pond, waterfalls, multi-decks, etc. He stood on a private balcony off his bedroom, with a buddy, smoking a big see-gar and just staring at the Eagles live DVD in front of him on the lawn. We rocked the neighborhood pretty good; good 'ol 4560's!
Next up I used it for live stage video in a crowd of about 5-6000 for Jefferson Starship; the screen saved the show, as 60% of the crowd couldn't see the stage!
Friday night, another backyard BBQ, Sat. a big car cruise-in (and I fire up the FM transmitter, too), and then vacation..........Travers City, Mackinac Island (The Iroquois), then the UP for Pictured Rocks. Throw in a couple of jaunts of motorcycle trail riding, a lil' jet ski, a hideously $ meal or two, and then.............five more big screen dates! Two on the top of the parking garage, one at the fair, a few in the parks..........and then it's back to school time! THEN I might get the 800/600 fired up. Getting the HT sorted out is the fall project. Might buy another small indoor projector. Suggestions for a cheaper one?

JBLnsince1959
08-09-2005, 01:42 PM
I'm still alive

OH MY GOD EVERYONE.....Mike's still ALIVE....!!!!! :applaud: :applaud:

well, from your post it sounds like you are REALLY alive and having a good time at it also. Sounds like the BIG screen is more your big toy right now than the PS :bouncy: . When I go thru Ohio to Maryland I'll have to stop by and see that screen for sure ( might see you also ;) )


Say, how's Bob doing with his PS speakers? Sounded like the rears worked out OK. Hope he likes them even more as time goes by( if that's possible). I've found that the longer these speakers run the more they open up......


Glad everything is going OK......When you get a chance to hook up the PS you know where we'll be.

Titanium Dome
08-09-2005, 04:20 PM
.Travers City, Mackinac Island (The Iroquois), then the UP for Pictured Rocks.

Oh boy, that really brings it back. Been to all those places many times--winter, spring, summer, and fall. No need for any speakers there, just the music of Michigan's natural wonders.

Now I'm gonna have to look for a Michigan scenery/natural sound DVD. Maybe the PS and the CRT will take me back to those happy days.

Thanks, Mike, I think.

Titanium Dome
08-09-2005, 04:26 PM
Dammit! Now I'll be watching Caddyshack tonight.

So we did watch Caddyshack. The GF had never seen it. (!) :wtf: (?)

The splashing of the water, the Jaws string music, the screeching of the girls, the ominous floating of the "turd," all more realistic thanks to the PS experience.

Rodney Dangerfield couldn't have been more annoying. It was like he was in the room.

Too funny. :rotfl:

MJC
08-10-2005, 07:41 PM
did a big cruise-in thingie in Detroit at Biker Bobs Harley Davidson. JBL rocked the joint, I tell ya. , and then vacation..........Travers City, Mackinac Island (The Iroquois), then the UP for Pictured Rocks.

You've been steping thru where I grew up. I haven't been to Machinac Island since the year of the Detroit riots in '67, I think it was. For all the years I've been living in Nevada, I have always said, "Detroit is a good place to be FROM". But I do like the northern part of the LP and the UP.

Michigan may have the Great Lakes, but Nevada and unfortunately Ca, has Lake Tahoe, the jewel of the High Sierra.:applaud:

MJC
08-10-2005, 08:12 PM
what type of sub's do you have? ( I may have missed this earlier)

Two sub1500s, one PB12 and two B212s. Actually one the B212s is a rebuilt, after 25 years of hard playing the amp blew up so I replaced it with a PE 150w plate. Then I proceeded to blow up the 121.

Titanium Dome
09-06-2005, 02:28 PM
It seems a few forum members have owned or do own both the Performance Series and some 4430s. With that in mind, Steve (sfellini) suggested a comparison thread.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=68207&postcount=30

Since I heard and got accustomed to the PS first, I'll need to let myself tune in to the 4430s for a bit.

I think it could be an interesting discussion, though I wonder what the relevant points of comparison and contrast will be. I think most people who've heard them will agree they're different.

Now to quantify that? :dont-know

I certainly don't have Widget's or Zilch's laboratories or Lancer's vast experience and technical prowess, so :wtf: can I really offer that isn't purely subjective?

:confused:

Zilch
09-06-2005, 03:21 PM
Start the thread when the time comes. We'll all "help." :p

Lancer
09-06-2005, 04:23 PM
I think it could be an interesting discussion, though I wonder what the relevant points of comparison and contrast will be. I think most people who've heard them will agree they're different.I wonder too. It's pretty cut and dried from my perspective. It will be interesting to see what you guys have to say from a subjective perspective. Keep in mind that there is quite a difference in age. The 4430 and 4435 are indeed quite obsolete. Regardless, I still like them both immensely and consider them to be classic examples of how large format 2-way systems should behave. The 4430 sure was a big step up from the older JBL 15-inch 2-ways. The PT800 is a fantastic example of the JBL 8-inch 3-way at it's best.

Titanium Dome
09-10-2005, 08:42 PM
There's a new page:

http://www.jbl.com/home/products/series.aspx?SerId=PER

Included are some new pieces (as announced earlier this year) and new prices. The PC600, PS1400, and PT800 are about $200 more each. :(

So far the harmanaudio.com refurb prices have not risen, making them a better deal. Whereas before they were priced at 70% of retail, they're 61% of the new prices (as long as they last).

Also, if you linger on the JBL home page for a minute, you'll see the Performance Series featured in the rotation of products, including the Array Series and the Studio L Series. :)

Titanium Dome
10-06-2005, 03:38 PM
I've known about this place for a couple of years, but haven't stopped in for a while. Inspired by JBLnsince1959, I dropped by today when I was nearby at the LA County DPW building.

They formerly had the Performance Series on display, but sold out all their demo stuff to a lucky guy from KC ;) and his buddy from Texas. However, they can still order Performance Series stuff. So, this is a great actual resource for factory new product.

I think I'll be getting my final PS1400 from them soon.

JBLnsince1959
10-07-2005, 03:23 PM
They formerly had the Performance Series on display, but sold out all their demo stuff to a lucky guy from KC ;) and his buddy from Texas. However, they can still order Performance Series stuff. So, this is a great actual resource for factory new product.



for those who might be interested the person to talk to is Angie Mao, she is very helpful and gave me a really good deal on BRAND NEW stuff also. Anyone can PM me if they want complete information to buy them.

Dome, hope she can work up a good deal for you. Looks like I bought them at the right time before they went up in value.

About two weeks ago a friend of my lady came up and wanted to go to a place called Nebraska Home Center to buy a digital camera. Now the Nebraska Home Center is about the biggest place I've ever seen, with just about everything for the home including all kinds of computers, electronics and stereo and HT stuff. I've only been there once and then only for a few minutes( she wanted to look for furniture). Anyway to make a short story long...... I got dragged out there for the evening ( boring )and I went to the speaker and HT area. Went thru 3 or 4 rooms of speakers and was thinking.. same old, same old... and then....in the last room....was....an entire room.... of all JBL's.... and the main attraction was the PS series setup for for HT with center and two PS800's in rear. WOW... AND they used WIRES to contect the 1400's to the 800's, man did it sound sweet.......

Well, you never know where these things will pop up. Hopefully they will get the new stuff in also. I'm going back out this weekend.

Titanium Dome
10-07-2005, 05:15 PM
What kind of wires?

Can you get a picture? :bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
10-07-2005, 09:35 PM
What kind of wires?

Can you get a picture? :bouncy:


Looked like speaker wire to me( about 16 gauge), but then I didn't look real close. I'm sure it wasn't lamp cord tho. :D

I'll try to get some pictures this weekend of the room. Nice to know that someone in KC carries JBL. BB has so little now.

Jakeisuseless
10-07-2005, 10:11 PM
I'm sure this was asked, but I'm too drunk to read the whole thread. What are you powering those peices of art with?

JBLnsince1959
10-08-2005, 09:36 AM
I'm powering them with different stuff as I'm still testing what sounds best.

1. 7008 MAC CD Player ( my favorite)

2. Mac C40 pre-amp

3. kimber hero interconnects ( again, I've tried over 6 different ones from very high-end to all silver etc, these give me the best over all balanced sound of fullness to detail)

4. Originally a MAC 402 amp, then tried an aragon amp, and have now settled on the least expensive amps I own, Marantz MA700's for the time being. Strange out these speakers sound "better" with mid-to-Hi-Fi stuff, but then every speaker and system is different. I've been wanting to try out the Mark Levinson amps, but I haven't felt like carrying the puppies down 2 flight of stairs from my reference room down to my play room in the basement. Would really be interesting to here the ML's. ( I'm not a big fan of newer ML amps, or their sources, or pre-amps - too dry and lifeless, but some of their older amps are sweet)

5. The speaker wires I'm currently using are Kimber 8TC and PSS pure silver wires combined in a special way. The Kimber gives the fullness and the silver gives details.

The PS speakers for me are a "fun" thing that I'm enjoying playing with. who knows what I'll hook up later.

This is what I've come to prefer so far.

mikebake
10-09-2005, 08:33 AM
I've been wanting to try out the Mark Levinson amps, but I haven't felt like carrying the puppies down 2 flight of stairs from my reference room down to my play room in the basement.
You have some other system? What speakers?

JBLnsince1959
10-09-2005, 09:13 AM
You have some other system? What speakers?

:D

mikebake
10-09-2005, 09:22 AM
:D
C'monnnnn.

JBLnsince1959
10-09-2005, 09:27 AM
Can you get a picture? :bouncy:


Ok, I went back to the store yesterday to take pictures of the room. Now the camera ( I don't have a digital camera) has been on the table for months with about 2 or 3 pictures left, so I quicky picked it up and drove 15 miles to the Neb. Furniture center ( or whatever it's name is) only to realize it's Nascar weekend and got in traffic.

Walked in looking like a fool taking pictures only to find out that the film had been used up so no pictures were taken. I'll have to try again.

The salesman did say that they are going to get the Studio L series in and that there was a review that the Harmon rep. left about the Studio L speakers, the salesman left for about 10 minutes to get it and said he couldn't find it. Oh well.

Hey MikeBake...did you ever get your woofers and hook them up to the 800's, if so how does it sound.

JBLnsince1959
10-09-2005, 09:28 AM
C'monnnnn.

someday, when I get it finished..I promise.

mikebake
10-09-2005, 09:47 AM
Hey MikeBake...did you ever get your woofers and hook them up to the 800's, if so how does it sound.

As I had said before, my total listgening time for the PT800's was about, oh, an hour or so, before Giskard borrowed them. Now I have had them back for some time but not hooked up for several months. Just happened to hook them up last night for HT duty to watch Joe Paterno disable the Buckeyes..........boo hoo. Anyway, so now my total listening time is up to 4-5 hours, listening to a TV broadcast using a mid-fi Yamaha AV receiver. Subs are back in duty, also. Will be listening to music today, plus hapless Browns broadcast, and a movie later. Obviously they are quite nice for HT. The subs always kick major ass. Nonetheless, this basement rec room/HT system is compromised by small room, even if I bring upgraded gear down there. I'll see how it does tonight for the movie. For serious 2 ch. music I'll move them up to theliving room sometime in the next 2-3 months andlet er rip. Might move 4430's in, too. Might as well, but it's a pain to set up tear down all this stuff after I just get things working......
Oh yeah, while the PT800's were sitting idle, the 4 year old rammed into a side corner with the exersize machine and put a nice rip/nick in the veneer. Damnit.

JBLnsince1959
10-09-2005, 10:02 AM
Oh yeah, while the PT800's were sitting idle, the 4 year old rammed into a side corner with the exersize machine and put a nice rip/nick in the veneer. Damnit.



OH MY GOD!!!!..well it happens..( too often)

OK, you twisted my arm...The 'Other' speakers are MartinLogan's ( hey, their main plant is only 30 miles away). I don't talk about them as they're not JBL's and don't fit in this forum. The lady has been wanting to use the room for something else so they might go back into storage ( had them there for awhile already).

She says that there are 4 rooms with speakers and she'll like the 'reference' room for guests, so I'm going to put them back into storage. I was redoing it all ( that's the fun part for me).

as far as the performance series, I've been playing around with them alot and I'm learning more about them as time goes on. There some things you can do to make them better for 2 channel.

well, got to go ( she wants to get out of the house and so does Whit), it's a nice day today.

see ya..

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 05:00 PM
This took a long time. I dedicated about 60 hours to this project, and had to limit it in order to make it feasible to complete it. There are many things left undone, which others are free to pursue, but this is the extent of my contribution for a while.

DISCLAIMER: There is no claim of scienctific validity to any of these observations. Anyone who needs pure science should look elsewhere. I am not a scientist by choice, so I do not pretend I am one for pretense or for credibility's sake. I am a hobbiest with a lot of accumulated knowledge and experience, and any observations made here are intended to be anecdotal in nature. This is my experience, not anyone else's, and if you do not want to hear about it because it may not seem logical or scientific to you, then do not read it.

PREAMBLE: This started as a quest that was larger than it needed to be. I took the time to set up a calibrated mic, get the PS towers EQed to nearly flat using the AS1000 and 2215-R, then played various tones from AudioTest and recorded the signals via AudioXplorer. Interesting, time consuming, and ultimately not needed for me. I would let my ears decide.

I can't hear measurements; I can only be prejudiced by them. If I want to validate what I hear, then perhaps measurements are in order after the fact, but if I hear no difference, I'm not going to waste my time measuring.

METHODOLOGY: The PS stacks were a minimum of three feet from a wall in any direction and exactly three feet from the nearest parallel wall which had the same semi-hard surface for its entire length. They sat on wall to wall carpet. They were toed in 45 degrees to aim at a chair whose head-level listening center was located exactly 48" from the 4" Titanium inverted dome midrange of each tower.

Each speaker was set to output the same full frequency noise level at an 80dB SPL, and all EQ was dialed back to 0. Practically speaking, this meant that the highest peak output was around 85dB from source material. This was the "A" configuration.

In order to compensate for differences in my ears, which are discernible, a mirror image listening environment "B" was set up in order to duplicate the same listening conditions with my ears "reversed." As you can imagine, this was a lot of work.

The same four music pieces were used for every session, and for every listening experience in each session. There were ten sessions over several months. Each session included ten listening experiences (five "A" and five "B") using five different connectors between the PT800 and PS1400 subunits of ONE stack and the standard connector on the other stack. Thus, I heard each musical selection 10 times each session or 100 times over the course of the project.

By keeping the standard connector on one stack while changing the wire on the other, I was able to make real time comparisons in the near-field listening I was doing in both the "A" and "B" environments. I did not depend on auditory memory to carry over while I was switching wires, because it does not carry over. The effects of this method were immediate and interesting.

I kept detailed listening sheets, both narrative and numerical, for each trial except when using the standard connectors on both stacks. I focused on specific elements of sound that matter to me as I constantly compared the standard set up with the nonstandard one. I always started with the standard JBL plated connector on both first as a baseline, then changed the order of the other four connectors in a computer-generated random pattern for each listening experience within the session.

The numerical results were recorded in separate Excel spreadsheets. However, they were not merged and tabulated until all trials were completed so that any developing patterns would not influence my subsequent sessions.

The narrative keywords were entered in a FileMaker Pro 7 database with customized search and tabulation components to see if I could generate a verbal evaluation from recurring words, concepts, or ideas that might repeat from one session to another. No analysis of this database was made until all trials were completed.

BASELINE: The baseline configuration always used the stock JBL gold-plated connectors on both stacks. Aside from removing one of these connectors on one stack to install different types of cabling, all other elements of the listening system were identical.

PUBLICATION: Due to the lack of scientific protocol and method, I have no interest or willingness to share or publish the actual data, as I don't intend to defend it, explain it, or excuse it. Just take my impressions for what they are worth. :bs:

The stock connector:

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 05:15 PM
This little wonder made an immediate impression on me that grew over time.

One thing that happened immediately was the the center of the soundstage moved to the left, toward the PS stack with the standard connector. This appeared to be because the midrange from the standard config, especially on vocals, was more pronounced, or as I wrote, more "forward and flat," whatever that means.

The ZMC stack was decidedly less forward, less in my face, and more "sensitive" as I put it. In the first several sessions, I noted this to be a minor weakness, but as I got used to it, it turned into a virtue.

Where the ZMC stack really knocked my socks off was in the high frequency stuff. This was so much more "open, airy, and detailed" that it became a drudge to my left ear to have to listen to the standard config. When I went to environment "B" to give my right ear a listen to the standard configuration, I think it shut down. It was like there was no treble from that side at all--just irritating tone bursts compared to the ZMC side.

There appeared to be no discernible difference in the upper bass.

One thing I defintiely knocked the standard config for was the "noise" it seemed to produce in percussion. It was harsh, had an edge of distortion to it.

So, on balance, the ZMC was less aggressive and more refined in the mids, and much, much imporved in detail and sharpness in the highs.

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 05:35 PM
I've been through the cable wars on other forums; hence, my super wordy disclaimer, methodology, etc.

There's a lot to be said for using zip cord and solid core and who knows what else, oh yeah, jumper cables, from an electronics point of view. The basic rule is that only a fool spends a lot of money on cables, since there's no real difference between zip cord and Monster Cable. (Maybe that's a bad choice. :p )

My biggest gripe is that if you're going to spend some serious money on gear, why suddenly be a cheap bastard when it comes to cables? How about putting some Kumho tires and painted steel wheels on your Mercedes, then, huh, Herbert? Tars iz tars.

Anyway, at one point I went to home Depot some years ago and bought a bunch of 12-2 Carol speaker wire by the foot just like an electrician. I thought that this experiment would be a good time to pull it out of the bucket where I keep it and try it again. This stuff is notorious for two things: it's stiff as hell, and the plastic sheathing discolors the copper and oxidizes it over time. When you look at the picture, you'll see how green this shit is.

Anyway, how did it do in the sound department?

First off, it sounded better than the standard config. That's right, even this old, stiff, corroded cable sounded better. It wasn't a huge difference, but it was perceptible in the first session.

The HDCW cleared up some of the static, edgey issues on the high frequency stuff. This seems to be an area where the standard connectors just have an inherent flaw. The highs were less "airy and detailed" than the ZMC, but I still felt they were "more open and musical" than before.

The midrange also seemed somewhat improved, but around the fifth session I wrote that it "was probably a figment of my imagination," as I began to think of the HDCW as nearly the equal of the standard config in most respects. That's not a compliment!

Of course, there was no apparent change in the upper bass.

Overall, the HDCW helped a little, especially at the top, but I wouldn't use it if I had any other decent choice.

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 06:06 PM
Thanks to forum friend JBLnsince1959, I got some Kimber Cable to experiment with. He sent both 4TC and 8TC. I decided to use the 8TC for the long haul experiment after doing a brief stint with the 4TC as well. They were quite similar, though the 8TC was "more." ;)

The first thing that struck me was how much alike the Zilch Miracle Cable (ZMC) from forum buddy Zilch was to the BK8. Only the BK8 was just a little bit better. Looking over the FileMaker database, many of the same words come up again and again: "open, airy, detailed" and a few new ones: "sensitive, delicate, intimate" when describing the high frequencies.

I must have been in a semi-comatose state from too much listening, but in one entry I wrote "sublime," which at this moment just seems too humorous to take seriously. :rotfl:

On the midrange, I felt that while the soundstage had shifted a bit to the left on this as well, it wasn't as dramatic. Over time I began to think that the "balanced, articulate" (this is where the voices are after all) midrange was much improved over the standard config. The midrange quality of the BK8 eventually influenced me to appreciate the ZMC's cababilities more.

One key point is the "naturalness" of the midrange and high frequencies. Attacks and decays are much more effective. Again, the static, edgy artifacts of the standard connectors are gone.

There was no apparent difference in the upper bass.

This was quite an improvement over the standard config, much better than the HDCW, and a slight improvement over the ZMC. Of course the ZMC is a very small fraction of the retail cost of the BK8. I'm wondering if the ZMC were doubled if it wouldn't exhibit virtually identical characterisitcs to the BK8.

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 06:39 PM
This is my default system speaker wire, everywhere except for the PS stack standard connectors. Obviously, if this wire has any limiting characteristics they placed the same limits on the ZMC, HDCW, and BK8 wires, because the signal came through the JSC wires to get to the stack's crossovers.

This "Pro Sound Oxygen Free" 12-2 speaker wire is about 50 cents a foot in 100' spools at a local electronics hobbiest shop. So, what happened?

For starters, the soundstage stayed right in the middle, no shifting to the left as with some of the other cables.

Once again the highs opened up. You know, "open, airy, detailed" from my now limited vocabulary. However, instead of "sensitive, delicate, intimate" as with the BK8, I only wrote "pristine." The motivation for this was that the highs seemed just a teeny, tiny bit less delicate, yet they were cleaner. Does that make sense? In the listening it did, and it's a feeling that grew over continued exposure. Percussion decayed with a clarity and directness that was almost brutal the first few times I listened. Once accustomed to it, I was writing, "How the hell did I not hear this before?" The PS stack with the standard config was clueless, appallingly bad by comparison.

All in all, the BK8 and ZMC had some slight edge in overall high frequency performance IMO, but their somewhat retiring midrange performance, while much better than the standard config and HDCW, was aced by the JSC. When I say "aced" I mean the midrange was a bit more out front like I like it. It also was a distinct improvement over the sometimes muddy/indistinct midrange output from the standard connectors.

Voices were "clear and natural." Strings were "warm, melodic, and musical." :blah: You get the point. Perhaps people with better hearing or audiophile pretensions will consider my preferences pedestrian, and they'll desire other qualities in the midrange. That's fine by me.

As expected, I never heard any useful distinctions between any of the connectors and upper bass performance.

So on balance, considering cost/performance ratios, I ended up going with the JSC wire. Big surprise, huh? I had some more in my garage. :p OTOH, I'm pretty eager to try ZMCx2 to see if it 1) comes closer to BK8, and 2) if I run the entire speaker cable length with ZMCx2 what effects that might have.

Titanium Dome
10-09-2005, 06:55 PM
Without some encouragement from Zilch and JBLnsince1959, I wouldn't have embarked on this project. I think I overdid it in a lot of ways, since there's no really new observations in the last four listening sessions, just corroboration of already formed ideas and opinions.

I would not have thought to remove the standard JBL connectors, nor would I have thought that they had a negative impact on the sound before trying this project. Now it should be an article of faith to all Perfomance Series owners not to use the supplied straps to connect the stacks. Almost anything is an improvement, though some improvements are better than others, and thicker isn't always better.

(Well, just look inside the enclosure to verify that.)

FWIW; YMMV :yes:

Mr. Widget
10-09-2005, 07:12 PM
Thanks for taking the time to put this evaluation together and share it with us.:bouncy:


Widget

Zilch
10-09-2005, 08:27 PM
Good job, Ti Dome. You're more of a scientist than you'll admit. :applaud:

Chop a ZMC in half and configure the ends as I did. I think the shorter length as your interconnect, even without doubling up, will provide the mids you like.

I've only used it to wire HF drivers, in maximum 3 ft. length; it works well for me in that application. It tested vastly superior in HF performance on WT2 in comparison to "standard" wire here, which is Radio Scrap 12 Ga. Your results certainly confirm that.

I'll make up some long pieces and give it a try. It's equivalent to about 15 Ga, according to the Belden book....

JBLnsince1959
10-10-2005, 02:29 PM
Well, very good work Dome. You know I've waited for this for over 4 or 5 months and the day I take a "break" from the forum ( altho, I was on in the morning) you decide to write about the wires ( what wires????:rotfl: )

I really enjoyed your comments and hopefully tonight ( or when I get time) I'll get to list my own observations. My observations may be close but my personal choice of wires will differ and of course I will use diiferent subjective adjectives to describe what I hear and why I prefer what I do.

well, back to work for now

JBLnsince1959
10-10-2005, 04:20 PM
Heres' my personal experience with cables ( I forgot what I wrote about 16 gauge and I can't find it) but the comparison to the 8TC and 12 gauge is still in my mind. ANDDDD, different people will prefer different wires. I think it has to do with what we are use to. I've used Kimber 4 TC or 8TC for over 16 years now so my ears are use to it.

The 12 gauge I was using was hi-purity monster. Yes, I too have the Home Depot green shit, but I didn't use it for this, in fact it was only used for subs and not for long ( anybody want some cheap green crappy 12 gauge? almost sounds like baby shit)

when I used the Monster 12 guage I was struck by how mellow, sweet and enjoyable it all sounded...the best word I can find is "Relaxed", Mid-bass ( the 800's don't do bass) was wonderfully smooth and very full. All in all it was soooo enjoyable. Then I hooked up the 8TC, the mid-bass was not as full and the mids and highs were "sharper". I then went back to the monster and listened carefully, the mids and highs, while smoother, fuller and somewhat more enjoyable, were not as articulate as the 8TC.

My experience with large wire has been that the sound becomes more bloated ( in size if you will). Individual notes will just become bigger in space and edges will become less articulate and this is apparent with the mid-bass, mids and highs. it is most noticable with the upper-mids to highs ( 1000 and up) as the notes are not as "sharp". Some have refered to this as a smearing of the music, maybe, I'm not sure. What I do know is that for me no matter how enjoyable the Monster 12 was I couldn't get pass what I would call sloppy mids and highs.

Dome has described this as "had some slight edge in overall high frequency performance IMO, but their somewhat retiring midrange performance. I mean the midrange was a bit more out front like I like it"

what he is describing as out front, I may be describing as bloated, I'm not sure.

what I do know is that I prefer the over all sound of the 8TC and Dome prefers the 12 guage. This might be just because we have listened to each for so long that it has become more "natural" to us.

I really do like the 12 guage's smoothness and relaxed manner, particuarly with the mid-bass. I'm going to try opening up the 800's and use the 12 gauge running from the crossover to the 8" and see how it sounds.

maybe something like combining 12 guage ( for fullness and smoothness) with some silver for the articulation.

we'll see...

Bottom-line is the standard connectors just SUCK BIG time ( are you hearing us JBL??) and if you buy these do your own test for wires. Most likely what you have been using from your amp to your speakers is what you will prefer. However, I'm sure that even lamp electical cord would be better.

Thanks again Dome.

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 05:25 PM
what he is describing as out front, I may be describing as bloated, I'm not sure.

what I do know is that I prefer the over all sound of the 8TC and Dome prefers the 12 guage. This might be just because we have listened to each for so long that it has become more "natural" to us.



Maybe your ears are cleaner than mine. :rotfl:

I need a little more "oomph" to push through the wax and those long, old man ear hairs that sprouted in the past couple of years.

Zilch
10-10-2005, 05:47 PM
PM me your shipping address, JBLn, and I'll send you ZMC's to try.

[Short ones.... :p ]

Titanium Dome
10-10-2005, 11:44 PM
A report at AVS Forums states that Tweeter Stores now have JBL Performance Series speakers on display. Is this really true? Is anyone near a Tweeter Store to check this out?

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 07:49 AM
Maybe your ears are cleaner than mine. :rotfl:

I need a little more "oomph" to push through the wax and those long, old man ear hairs that sprouted in the past couple of years.

Not likely, we're both the same age and MY ears too have sprouted strange looking stuff. :D and seems to produce enough wax for candles :( . ( ahhhh... the joys of getting older)

Of course what's not mentioned is the source and amps we were using which could affect things also.

I was using a MAC system with a 402 amp. The 402 amp is a really sweet puppy of an amp and got some great reviews BUT, the mids and highs are..well..softer, more relaxed than other amps ( Better articualtion than the older MAC amps but still a MAC) and with the 12 guage it might have been too much of a good thing. The MAC 402 amp ( and other MAC amps - IMHO) seems to work best with horn loaded systems or electrostatic speakers( mellows them out a little)

I have switched to using my Marantz MA700 amps for the PS speakers and the sound is much "cleaner" with more space between the notes. It would be interesting to try the 12 guage with the MA700 and see what it sounds like, but that takes a lot of time and so it's on the back burner for now.

The only draw-back to the MA700 on other speakers was that the sound wasn't as "big" as a MAC ( few things are)and the bass and mid-bass was very tight or thin ( hard to explain). However, with the MA700's hooked up to the PS speakers the amp in the 1400 seems to make up for this and it really sounds great. Full, deep bass; full, rounded mid-bass and mids with great attacks and decay......and distinct, clear highs without being bright. All with clean separation and black between the notes; nice, very nice. I was so surprised by the MA700 connected to the PS speakers.

got to go to work...later...

Titanium Dome
10-11-2005, 08:11 AM
Here's a January press release with a reference to the Performance Series near the bottom, before the "About Tweeter" section.

http://www.prnewswire.com/mnr/tweeter/20960/

There's a picture in the middle on the right that shows the room with the JBLs. The salesman looks a little perplexed because he apparently put the guy in the chair asleep.

The PT800 and PC600 are wall mounted. It appears that the PS1400 in on the floor in the corner behind the sales guy. I guess nobody there read the Harman piece on multisubs.

The room is awfully bright (colors) and hard (surfaces) for a HT room, but it probably looks more elegant to the average customer than a darker, more dedicated space.

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 08:40 AM
PM me your shipping address, JBLn, and I'll send you ZMC's to try.

[Short ones.... :p ]

Sure, that would be great!!!! :bouncy: :bouncy: :applaud:

Lancer
10-11-2005, 08:55 AM
A report at AVS Forums states that Tweeter Stores now have JBL Performance Series speakers on display. Is this really true? Is anyone near a Tweeter Store to check this out?I've posted several times that Tweeter Stores would be carrying the Performance Series.

The PT800 and PC600 are wall mounted. It appears that the PS1400 in on the floor in the corner behind the sales guy. I guess nobody there read the Harman piece on multisubs.They don't care. They're just sales people.

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 09:03 AM
I've posted several times that Tweeter Stores would be carrying the Performance Series.
.

I was just getting ready to remind everyone....


They're just sales people.
:rotfl:

Titanium Dome
10-11-2005, 09:56 AM
I've posted several times that Tweeter Stores would be carrying the Performance Series.


You expect me to remember that? Who are you again? Where are my keys? Mommy? Mommy? I think I made a boo boo.

:rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
10-11-2005, 10:11 AM
You expect me to remember that?
:rotfl:

It's always nice to be reminded. See Dome, dementia has it's good side

Titanium Dome
11-28-2005, 12:06 PM
Okay, I looked high and low, with minimal success, to dig out some real info on the Ti tweeter used in the PT800 and PC600. Using the most powerful search engine in the world, if not the universe, the LH PHP Universal SuperDrive FibreChannel Fast-and-Wide Quad Core Relational Inquisitor (v.1.1a), this is as close as I could get to a revelation:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10068&postcount=6

Can anyone answer Earl's 2.5 year old question? Given the sticker below, it's not really a JBL product, is it?. So, where's it from and what's its family like? Does anyone have technical details on it?

edgewound
11-28-2005, 12:18 PM
Okay, I looked high and low, with minimal success, to dig out some real info on the Ti tweeter used in the PT800 and PC600. Using the most powerful search engine in the world, if not the universe, the LH PHP Universal SuperDrive FibreChannel Fast-and-Wide Quad Core Relational Inquisitor (v.1.1a), this is as close as I could get to a revelation:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=10068&postcount=6

Can anyone answer Earl's 2.5 year old question? Given the sticker below, it's not really a JBL product, is it?. So, where's it from and what's its family like? Does anyone have technical details on it?

Yeah....it's a lil ol Audax...member of the Harman Family.

Mr. Widget
11-28-2005, 12:54 PM
Yeah....it's a lil ol Audax...member of the Harman Family.Yep, a $5 tweeter with a $3 bezel....

They do sound good though.:D


Widget

Titanium Dome
11-28-2005, 02:28 PM
Yep, a $5 tweeter with a $3 bezel....

They do sound good though.:D


Widget

Model # then? I didn't see one for $5 or $8. :p

edgewound
11-28-2005, 03:12 PM
Model # then? I didn't see one for $5 or $8. :p

Corporate part #335663-001. And you're right... JBL does not charge $5.00 for the part. Probably proprietary OEM version for JBL Consumer, because they can and do.

Mr. Widget
11-28-2005, 03:22 PM
I was speaking about the wholesale price. :p I think it is similar to the Audax TM025F7. I can get them for $12.95, I would expect JBL would do much better. ;)

http://www.audax.fr/

Widget

Titanium Dome
11-28-2005, 03:49 PM
I went to the AUDAX forum (AUDAX: Le Forum), and asked the posters there if they could identify it.


Salutations a tous. A l'avance, veuillez agreer mes excuses pour mon Francais faible.

Je recherche l'information sur un tweeter d'Audax. Veuillez regarder cette image :

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=79422&postcount=582

L'image montre le dos du tweeter avec des nombres. Mon avatar (montre sous "Titanium Dome") montre l'avant.

Connaissez-vous quel modele titanique d'Audax c'est ?
Merci.

And yes, I used their search engine first. :p

Lancer
11-29-2005, 05:29 AM
They do sound good though.You're right, they do sound very good.

Titanium Dome
11-29-2005, 05:57 AM
Soon I'll have an extra pair of PT800s, and I'm thinking about several things, some of which might be (probably are) stupid, but I'm thinking about them anyway.

When thinking about the 044Ti and 035TIA tweeters, for example, where does the Performance Series tweeter really fit in? Obviously, at its price point, it's not in the same league or shouldn't be anyway. Yet, I have many, many 035TIA set ups, and I'd judge the PS tweeter to be better in my subjective listening. This may be due in part to the EOS Waveguide, the tweeter's balance with the other drivers, the crossover, etc., BUT how would it really compare spec-wise to an 035TIA? Once out of the EOS Waveguide, away from its companion drivers, and independent of the crossover, what's it really like?

As for the the 044-1 tweeters in my recently refurbished L250s, the PS tweeter is hands down a better performer, but how might it compare to an 044Ti? I don't have one to compare it to, though I've heard many 044Tis over the years. They're very nice, but so is this inexpensive PS tweeter.

I do not have the capability to measure this out myself, so getting this info in the form of a tech sheet would be a good start. :yes:

Lancer
11-29-2005, 06:00 AM
When thinking about the 044Ti and 035TIA tweeters, for example, where does the Performance Series tweeter really fit in?

The costs of the 044Ti and 046Ti are staggering compared to the Audax. The 044Ti and 046Ti have the power and the dynamics while the Audax has the smoothness. The "fix" for the 044Ti and 046Ti is not generally available to end users so there is no point in posting it.

Once out of the EOS Waveguide, away from its companion drivers, and independent of the crossover, what's it really like?

Who cares... I personally wouldn't use it outside of a PC600 or PT800. It balances perfectly in those systems. Yeah ok, it could be fun to get Mr. Widget to run curves on them all. :p I won't waste my time doing it but I would waste his. :rotfl:

As for the the 044-1 tweeters in my recently refurbished L250s, the PS tweeter is hands down a better performer, but how might it compare to an 044Ti?

Yes, the expensive phenolic domed 033, 044 and 066 are at a decided disadvantage compared to the Audax. In fact, it was the Performance Series that prompted me to finally let go of all my 033's, 044's, and 066's as well as all the LE5/2105 derivatives. The PT800 really is better overall than any of the 033, 044, or 066 and LE5/2105 based systems. Not only does it sound decidedly better, it comes in a friendlier physical package as well.

I still have my 044Ti's and 046Ti's. It could be a tough decision to replace stock 250Ti's with the PT800/PS1400. Deciding to replace a pair of XPL200A's might be a bit easier. :dont-know I'd have to set them side by side and give them another six months together. I decided to keep the Ti's and XPL's rather than go with the Performance Series. That decision was based on the then up and coming Array Series.

Valentin
11-29-2005, 09:25 AM
how about comparing it (ps Tweeter) with the 053Ti of the lsr models

the LSR tweeter is very smooth of course its more expensive

Titanium Dome
12-01-2005, 06:03 PM
Here's the reply I received:


Bonjour.

Il s'agit probablement de tweeter audax serie neodyme.
Ce que l'on appel du "cheap", apparement fait sur mesure : il n'a pas l'embase de fixation classique.

Je vais voir si je peux trouver.
Pas garantie.


CDT.
Cyrille

Hello.

It's probably an Audax tweeter from the neodymium series. One would call it "cheap" (inexpensive), apparently made to fit (custom): it doesn't have the traditional base.

I'll see if I can find more. No promises.

Mr. Widget
12-01-2005, 06:26 PM
Titane Dôme, there are a lot of French audiophiles and loudspeaker enthusiasts... being able to read and write in French would be great... I am envious.

So your tweeter isn't from their "PRESTIGE" line, does it matter? It is a fine tweeter.


Widget

Titanium Dome
12-01-2005, 08:29 PM
Titane Dôme, there are a lot of French audiophiles and loudspeaker enthusiasts... being able to read and write in French would be great... I am envious.

So your tweeter isn't from their "PRESTIGE" line, does it matter? It is a fine tweeter.


Widget

I might be able to use it in applications where the original tweeter is no longer an option or just doesn't make sense. If I could "see" what it looks like, then I might know if it'd be worth it as a substitute for a driver with similar characteristics. As much as I'd love to pay $80 or $100 or $160 for a pair of used 044Tis in various conditions, I'd be equally happy spending $50 a pair for brand spanking new drivers that were essentially able to replace them.

Probably some tweaks required, but for me the hierarchy looks like this:
Does it sound as good?
Is it easy to get?
Does it cost less?

If the answer to all three questions is "yes" then :homer: I'm in business.

Speaking of French audiophiles, it's interesting that on the Audax site JBL pops up from time to time. Currently a debate about the merits of JBL vs. D.A.S. drivers is going on.

http://www.dasaudio.com/

It's a site worth checking out. There's an English version.

JBLnsince1959
12-02-2005, 03:15 PM
all this worry, research and talk for a $1 tweeter........ :blink:

JBLnsince1959
12-02-2005, 03:18 PM
makes you wonder what the PS would sound like with a real tweeter inside.

Still thinking about making a 250Ti performance series speaker....if only I could find some cheap 250 boxes and some 800 parts........

mikebake
12-02-2005, 03:36 PM
makes you wonder what the PS would sound like with a real tweeter inside.


It's fine, it is a real tweeter, it works fine in the application, let's not border on over-obsessing here........

JBLnsince1959
12-02-2005, 04:02 PM
let's not border on over-obsessing here........

Why not????? ( and have some fun to), besides I haven't been on the forum for a long time so why not be over-obsessive...Ok, OK, I'll try not to be over-obsessive BUT only obsessive in the correct amount.

Personally I never thought twice about the tweeter before. And now I find out they use some cheap thingy.......

as long as the sound is OK, I quess it doesn't matter if it's a good tweeter or not...... :o:

mikebake
12-02-2005, 04:11 PM
Personally I never thought twice about the tweeter before. And now I find out they use some cheap thingy.......

as long as the sound is OK, I quess it doesn't matter if it's a good tweeter or not...... :o:

Right! No reason to think about it. Get off the gear and onto the music, men! And if the sound is okay, it IS a good tweeter. What other definition IS there? It just means that Audax can make a superb part inexpensively. Beauteous!

Valentin
12-02-2005, 04:13 PM
tha tweeter in the SVA 2100 is audax prestige TW 034 X0

John B
12-02-2005, 04:45 PM
The tweeter in the Tik series looks suspiciously similar to the Audax TW025A16. Anybody know if the Tiks use an Audax tweeter?

Titanium Dome
12-02-2005, 04:57 PM
It's fine, it is a real tweeter, it works fine in the application, let's not border on over-obsessing here........


Who's over-obsessing now? :rotfl:

Horn guys can get all twisted in the pants about horns, but, hey, stop talkin' 'bout dem damn domes, Dome! :p

Titanium Dome
12-02-2005, 05:03 PM
Right! No reason to think about it. Get off the gear and onto the music, men! And if the sound is okay, it IS a good tweeter. What other definition IS there? It just means that Audax can make a superb part inexpensively. Beauteous!

It does sound great, and I enjoy listening to it immensely. So if it's great in the PS, what else might it be great in and at a considerable savings?

Mr. Widget
12-02-2005, 05:09 PM
For anyone thinking they should buy a more expensive tweeter to improve their Performance Series speakers... make sure the process is reversible. The likelihood is that even switching to a much more expensive unit, you will degrade the quality not improve it. They have maximized the PERFORMANCE of these things. To make a substitution would really be unwise, unless you are prepared to really do the research and spend some good solid engineering time.


Widget

mikebake
12-02-2005, 05:27 PM
That happens to be me in the avatar, so now I guess you think it's funny that I am fat.................

And I now also want the Array series..........

BTW, that horn in the avatar can kick the crap outta the PS, even with .006 watts.......it just won't fit in my rec room.


Who's over-obsessing now? :rotfl:

Horn guys can get all twisted in the pants about horns, but, hey, stop talkin' 'bout dem damn domes, Dome! :p

edgewound
12-02-2005, 05:30 PM
For anyone thinking they should buy a more expensive tweeter to improve their Performance Series speakers... make sure the process is reversible. The likelihood is that even switching to a much more expensive unit, you will degrade the quality not improve it. They have maximized the PERFORMANCE of these things. To make a substitution would really be unwise, unless you are prepared to really do the research and spend some good solid engineering time.


Widget

I think TD is wondering what else the PS (audax) tweeter could improve....rather than replacing it with something else....no?

Titanium Dome
12-02-2005, 05:36 PM
I think TD is wondering what else the PS (audax) tweeter could improve....rather than replacing it with something else....no?

Often you are the wisest man on the forum. :yes:

Titanium Dome
12-02-2005, 05:39 PM
That happens to be me in the avatar, so now I guess you think it's funny that I am fat.................

And I now also want the Array series..........

BTW, that horn in the avatar can kick the crap outta the PS, even with .006 watts.......it just won't fit in my rec room.


Like a bovine fantasy of returning to the womb.

Mr. Widget
12-02-2005, 07:48 PM
I think TD is wondering what else the PS (audax) tweeter could improve....rather than replacing it with something else....no?Oh...
That POS tweeter... why would he want to do that?:duck:

That never would have occurred to me, my mistake.:rotfl:


Widget

John B
12-03-2005, 09:22 AM
Oh...
That POS tweeter... why would he want to do that?:duck:

That never would have occurred to me, my mistake.:rotfl:


WidgetWay back when I first joined this forum there was alot of talk about POS speakers. I had to ask what that meant and I was told "Paragon Off Shoots". I wondered what the Audax tweeter had to do with a Paragon until I found this picture.

Titanium Dome
12-03-2005, 11:11 AM
That's the best looking Paragon I've ever seen. :rotfl:

It's probably the best sounding, too.

JBLnsince1959
12-03-2005, 11:19 AM
Way back when I first joined this forum there was alot of talk about POS speakers. I had to ask what that meant and I was told "Paragon Off Shoots". I wondered what the Audax tweeter had to do with a Paragon until I found this picture.

Oh...I thought POS meant Piece Of Sh*t

Titanium Dome
02-12-2006, 02:24 AM
I was scrounging around my Performance Series cardboard box collection in the garage and came upon two unopened cartons with the optional corner mounting brackets for the PT800s. This got me thinking about some things. :hmm:

1) Has anyone here actually used the standard wall hanging brackets included with each PT800?

2) Has anyone ever hung a PT800 in the corner of the room using the optional corner brackets?

3) In the case of #2, what are the implications for the PT800's sound, given its unusual shape, determined in part to facilitate such a corner mounting?

Any experience, scholarly guesses, or just plain BS are welcome. :blah: :bs:

Titanium Dome
02-12-2006, 02:31 AM
Here's the 2006 Performance Series product line. It's growing!


from Frank Doris, FM Group Public Relations

JBL Performance Series: A Complete Lineup of High-End Home Theater Audio Systems

The JBL Performance Series is a full range of high-end turnkey home theater audio systems that includes electronics and loudspeakers. The Performance Series offers a variety of multichannel home theater audio solutions, all designed to offer extraordinary sonic realism, along with unmatched operational flexibility and ease of use, in rooms of up to 5,000 cubic feet.

Each JBL Performance Series system is based around the Performance Series 7.1-channel AV1 Surround Processor/System Controller and AVA7 7-Channel Power Amplifier, both engineered to deliver state-of-the-art sound quality and connectivity in the widest range of custom-installation home theater systems. JBL Performance Series systems can be configured with a broad variety of matched 7.1- and 5.1-channel in-wall and on-wall speaker systems to accommodate specific customer and room applications.

A variety of loudspeakers is offered, including the Performance P941 and P81 advanced-technology in-wall speakers, which are now available with optional back boxes that provide acoustical isolation and improved sound quality. Other models include the Performance PT800 tower main/surround loudspeaker, the Performance PC600 center channel speaker, the PS1400 14-inch, 400-watt powered subwoofer, and JBL’s HTPS400 12-inch, 1000-watt powered subwoofer, which features a compact enclosure that enables it to be easily situated in any room.

The modular design of the on-wall speakers allows the PT800 tower to be stacked atop the PS1400 subwoofer, mounted separately on a wall or installed on optional available stands. All the speakers have a unique shallow-profile enclosure that requires a minimum of floor space, and all models are constructed using professional-quality JBL drivers and components. The P941 and P81 in-wall speakers incorporate front-panel listener axis, high-frequency contour, high-frequency level and low-frequency boundary compensation controls that allow precise sonic tailoring in any installation.

JBL will also introduce its innovative JBL BassQ™ Automatic Room Mode Correction™ (RMC™) Processor, which can be added to any Performance Series system, in 2006. The BassQ RMC processor is a low-frequency-response correction component that utilizes supplied measurement microphones and advanced DSP equalization to compensate for the peaks and dips in frequency response that are inherent in every room, to achieve smooth, accurate bass response.

Pricing for JBL Performance Series systems ranges from approximately $15,000 for JBL’s Performance System 7 5.1-channel in-wall system to $30,000 for the JBL Premier Performance 7.1-channel on-wall and in-wall packages. All Performance Series systems are currently shipping

Valentin
02-13-2006, 11:09 AM
can;t wait to see that new bassQ sistem they have been telling us for so long

i hope it the same one as the revel sub with three bands of eq
more or les like Rives audio Parc

Titanium Dome
02-13-2006, 12:45 PM
can;t wait to see that new bassQ sistem they have been telling us for so long

i hope it the same one as the revel sub with three bands of eq
more or les like Rives audio Parc

Yes, it has been a long time coming.

Mr. Widget
02-13-2006, 12:52 PM
can;t wait to see that new bassQ sistem they have been telling us for so long

i hope it the same one as the revel sub with three bands of eq
more or les like Rives audio ParcAnother alternative is to take your favorite subwoofer (JBL of course) and add a Velodyne SMS-1.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_4/velodyne-sms1-digital-drive-sub-manager-12-2005-part-1.html


Widget

Titanium Dome
02-13-2006, 02:19 PM
This really is a wonderful tweeter. We've agreed that it comes from Audax, in France, which is a Harman International company, like JBL.

Audax seems to be picking up the slack as JBL's consumer tweeter production has faltered of late--probably a Harman International corporate decision. Audax tweeters are respected enough that they generate their own Web forum, in French of course! I've written and posted there to get more insight into the tweeter.

This particular model seems purpose built for JBL, and it's appeared in JBL products for at least six years, including the recent full-line Studio Series, and the current Synthesis Four system. It cannot be bought direct from Audax, though many less expensive tweeters may be purchased from Audax.

Pure Titanium dome, rubber surround, neodymium magnet, shielded, in an EOS Waveguide, there's a lot going on that's good about this tweeter.

EDIT: The post I was responding to disappeared. Someone posted that the tweeter was disappointing based on the picture I posted many, many posts ago in this thread. He felt it was not the kind of tweeter one would expect of JBL. I don't know what happened, but I'll leave the post in anyway. :dont-know

Titanium Dome
03-29-2006, 01:08 AM
Currently, the www.harmanaudio.com site does not have any Performance Series speakers in its "All Specials" section. This is quite unusual. They've been on there for ages in many varieties. Now they're ALL gone.

The PS also is missing from the "Current Models" page, although I can't say I've noticed them there before.

The JBL.com Website (which was down for some time this evening) still shows the PS there. So you can still get the recently price-increased new product, but it looks like refurbs are thinning out or maybe gone for good.

:hmm:

MJC
03-30-2006, 06:51 AM
but it looks like refurbs are thinning out or maybe gone for good.

:hmm:
I've often wondered if the refurbs were really refurbs at all, just new ones being sold at discounted prices. Its not like the PS are being sold at every BB in the country. Where are the refurbs coming from? How many PS are sold by Synthesis dealers, that would produce that many refurbs?

Titanium Dome
03-30-2006, 04:45 PM
I've often wondered if the refurbs were really refurbs at all, just new ones being sold at discounted prices. Its not like the PS are being sold at every BB in the country. Where are the refurbs coming from? How many PS are sold by Synthesis dealers, that would produce that many refurbs?

Yes, it seemed like an unofficial fire sale, didn't it?

Titanium Dome
04-15-2006, 12:40 AM
When the PS1400 and PT800 are docked, the SYSTEM INPUT speaker connectors are used, and the LF CROSSOVER switch is in the NORMAL position. It's a four-way speaker, with LF levels controlled by the LF LEVEL dial, not the LFE LEVEL dial.

If the PS1400 is used as a pure sub, the LFE/SUBWOOFER INPUT is used, and the LFE LEVEL controls LFE level. In this case, the LF CROSSOVER is in the SEPARATED position. You can choose to do this even when the units are docked, but basically you've got a three-way with a frequency response of 80Hz–22kHz and an LFE sub. Also in this case, your receiver or pre/pro better be able to cross everything from 80Hz down away from the PT800s or you'll be in trouble. The problem with this approach is that with two-channel music on some receivers and pre/pros you're not going to have the LFE active, so your stereo experience might be somewhat disappointing.

OTOH, having them stacked and NORMAL gives you a great stereo experience in part because the LE14H-3 is crossing over at 130Hz, not 80Hz as you might otherwise set it up with your receiver or pre/pro. However, the LFE isn't everything you want it to be for movies, because the LFE material isn't going to a separate sub.

So my solution in this case is to have the FL and FR Performance stacks running as four-way speakers, like L250s (or L7s or XPL200s), plus a PS1400 running as a dedicated LFE subwoofer. I really want to get one more PS1400 to run in that fashion. (Harman mulitsubs, you know. ;) )

There is a kind of hybrid of these two approaches that JBL documents in the OM, but I haven't really tried it yet.

So if I prefer a four-way system for two channel listening over a three-way and a sub, is it inevitable that I feel the same way about a two-way and a sub?

For comparison, I've got a pair of 4430s that make some very nice two-channel music, as well as SVA2100s, SVA1800s, and L60Ts. Starting with the L60Ts, with their 8" woofers, there's no doubt they need help with the low end, just like the PT800s do. So even for two-channel listening in my Watts office, they get augmented with a 12" sub.

The SVAs are more powerful than the L60Ts could ever hope to be, but being able to make more sound doesn't translate into a wider range of sound, at least not for the SVA1800s. A nice FA CSS200 THX sub with an LE120H-1 inside helps these guys get to the bottom better. The SVA2100s can sound pretty convincing w/o a sub, but at 10", the woofers still don't have that capability that adding a couple of LE12H-1 based subs brings.

Now, the 4430s with their 2235H 15" boomers should be fine, right? Well, they are fine, except the 2235Hs are covering a lot of ground, and I was a bit disappointed in the quality of the low bass with these speakers. When I sort of stumbled into ownership of a B380 and BX63A and added it to this combo, the sound improved a lot, and the low end got a much better.

I truly feel that the Performance Series offers the best of both worlds, especially if you can have both stacks and separate subs. For me, even the four-way PS stacks are preferable to some pretty nice two-way systems when it's time for two-channel music, even when you augment those two-ways with a sub or two.

JMO, of course. :bouncy:

4313B
04-15-2006, 06:24 AM
Now, the 4430s with their 2235H 15" boomers should be fine, right? Well, they are fine, except the 2235Hs are covering a lot of ground, and I was a bit disappointed in the quality of the low bass with these speakers. When I sort of stumbled into ownership of a B380 and BX36A and added it to this combo, the sound improved a lot, and the low end got a much better.Dependent on setup and tuning. I stopped using the stock 4430 tuning very early, it's simply too aggressive for home hi-fi use. I also got the 4430 up off the floor a bit. I was never a personal fan of the B380 or B460 and never found them to add much of anything positive to a musical experience. I sure installed plenty of them for people who just had to have them though. I did run a pair of 2242H subs with my 4430's for awhile and those weren't so bad. It was fun enough.

Titanium Dome
04-15-2006, 09:17 AM
Dependent on setup and tuning. I stopped using the stock 4430 tuning very early, it's simply too aggressive for home hi-fi use. I also got the 4430 up off the floor a bit. I was never a personal fan of the B380 or B460 and never found them to add much of anything positive to a musical experience. I sure installed plenty of them for people who just had to have them though. I did run a pair of 2242H subs with my 4430's for awhile and those weren't so bad. It was fun enough.

I'm certain the rooms have more to do with it than anything; e.g., the 4430s in my office are in a less than ideal environment, and the 2235H drivers, being close to the floor, have a lot of physical "bad elements" to deal with. Whereas, the PS1400/PT800 stacks are much better positioned at home and the environment is tuned better, though nowhere near perfectly.

It's also my impression having moved both 4430s and PS stacks around, that the PS is less susceptible to to dramatic changes in sound, even though the 4430 is horn-based. I'm attributing this to the phase alignment and baffle design, though it's just an untalented goober's guess at this point.

There are times when I think the PS stack is a "lucky" design, and other times when I think it's brilliant. The truth as they say probably lies somewhere in between. Clearly, GT (and any who assisted) made the most out of what he was given, so despite our propensity to muck around and "improve" these designs, I tend to always prefer the stock systems.

I'm not much into second-guessing experts who are truly experts. Thank goodness there are no public elections on who should be designing speakers at JBL. (Now I'm veering off-thread toward politics, so I'll stop. :D )

4313B
04-15-2006, 10:06 AM
Clearly, GT (and any who assisted) made the most out of what he was given, so despite our propensity to muck around and "improve" these designs, I tend to always prefer the stock systems.

I'm not much into second-guessing experts who are truly experts.Understood. That's why GT and myself run totally custom DIY systems while others run totally stock systems. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. For instance, the PS1400 was too small due to Marketing constraints. That's why we build custom PS1400's approximately 35% larger in volume. Sure, it costs more and it takes extra effort but that's what we do and there are no manufacturing or marketing constraints. Additionally charge coupled networks were completely out of the question in order for the Performance Series to make the price points, hence the crafting of custom charge-coupled networks. We've been doing this since day one. As someone said very recently, "there's work and then there's the important stuff" and that person was pointing to one of his custom xxxxx stacks. It's fun. :)

oznob
04-15-2006, 11:25 AM
When the PS1400 and PT800 are docked, the SYSTEM INPUT speaker connectors are used, and the LF CROSSOVER switch is in the NORMAL position. It's a four-way speaker, with LF levels controlled by the LF LEVEL dial, not the LFE LEVEL dial.

If the PS1400 is used as a pure sub, the LFE/SUBWOOFER INPUT is used, and the LFE LEVEL controls LFE level. In this case, the LF CROSSOVER is in the SEPARATED position. You can choose to do this even when the units are docked, but basically you've got a three-way with a frequency response of 80Hz–22kHz and an LFE sub. Also in this case, your receiver or pre/pro better be able to cross everything from 80Hz down away from the PT800s or you'll be in trouble. The problem with this approach is that with two-channel music on some receivers and pre/pros you're not going to have the LFE active, so your stereo experience might be somewhat disappointing.

OTOH, having them stacked and NORMAL gives you a great stereo experience in part because the LE14H-3 is crossing over at 130Hz, not 80Hz as you might otherwise set it up with your receiver or pre/pro. However, the LFE isn't everything you want it to be for movies, because the LFE material isn't going to a separate sub.

So my solution in this case is to have the FL and FR Performance stacks running as four-way speakers, like L250s (or L7s or XPL200s), plus a PS1400 running as a dedicated LFE subwoofer. I really want to get one more PS1400 to run in that fashion. (Harman mulitsubs, you know. ;) )

There is a kind of hybrid of these two approaches that JBL documents in the OM, but I haven't really tried it yet.

So if I prefer a four-way system for two channel listening over a three-way and a sub, is it inevitable that I feel the same way about a two-way and a sub?

For comparison, I've got a pair of 4430s that make some very nice two-channel music, as well as SVA2100s, SVA1800s, and L60Ts. Starting with the L60Ts, with their 8" woofers, there's no doubt they need help with the low end, just like the PT800s do. So even for two-channel listening in my Watts office, they get augmented with a 12" sub.

The SVAs are more powerful than the L60Ts could ever hope to be, but being able to make more sound doesn't translate into a wider range of sound, at least not for the SVA1800s. A nice FA CSS200 THX sub with an LE120H-1 inside helps these guys get to the bottom better. The SVA2100s can sound pretty convincing w/o a sub, but at 10", the woofers still don't have that capability that adding a couple of LE12H-1 based subs brings.

Now, the 4430s with their 2235H 15" boomers should be fine, right? Well, they are fine, except the 2235Hs are covering a lot of ground, and I was a bit disappointed in the quality of the low bass with these speakers. When I sort of stumbled into ownership of a B380 and BX63A and added it to this combo, the sound improved a lot, and the low end got a much better.

I truly feel that the Performance Series offers the best of both worlds, especially if you can have both stacks and separate subs. For me, even the four-way PS stacks are preferable to some pretty nice two-way systems when it's time for two-channel music, even when you augment those two-ways with a sub or two.

JMO, of course. :bouncy:

Hey Ti,
Thanks for the very valuable information. I have a very difficult living room to properly set up a sub, that and it seems every month my wife wants to re-arrange the furniture! My last question is system matching. I know it can be critical for two channel but with home theater, powered subs and the like, is it as big an issue? In essence, you have a bi-amp main speaker system and I would imagine the amp/receiver driving the sats should be matched to the amps in the subs? I know most quality A/V receivers have bass management systems and adjustable crossovers for the LFE channel which can help dial in the sound. If I were to invest in the Performance series for a dedicated home theater, I would mount the sats on the subs. What would be your recommendation be on brands, features etc. as far as A/V receivers, processors and the like. I have had one Denon's higher end receivers and a couple of Yamaha's. I went back to two channel mainly because I didn't watch movies much at that time and seems like everytime I shelled out the money for a "Top of the Line", within a year there was something "better." Of course, I had to have the new technology. It's very much like buying a new computer in terms of the rapid advance in technology. Thanks so much for your patience and indulgence.

4313B
04-15-2006, 11:35 AM
What would be your recommendation be on brands, features etc. as far as A/V receivers, processors and the like.http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/system_overview.aspx?prod=SYN4-L7&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Also check with Rob Patton.

Titanium Dome
04-15-2006, 12:02 PM
http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/system_overview.aspx?prod=SYN4-L7&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Also check with Rob Patton.

Those are good recommendations.

I'd add that the HTPS400 12" sub is really worth considering if you don't stack. It's a real powerhouse.

If you don't get the Performance pre/pro and amp, I'd still recommend separates if possible. There are many fine multichannel receivers, some of which outperform modest separates. Denon and HK are two good examples, but if you can get mid-to-high quality separates, I think you'll be happier in the long run.

While 120 or 125W/ch does a good job, I'm running two five channel, 200W/ch amps. I use three channels from one and four channels from the other, and both amps have massive power supplies, so there's a lot of headroom for those HT peaks that come up. Plus, when the next multichannel configuration comes along, I've got the channels to handle it, and two PT800s waiting in reserve.

Good amps remain good amps for some time, while good receivers become yesterday's news all too quickly, it seems. I've replaced my pre/pro three times in the past four years. I wanted PLII, then PLIIx; I wanted 7.1 channel inputs; I wanted better analog bypass; I wanted two-channel analog bass management; etc.

With a receiver, I'd be replacing the whole thing each time, but this way I'm keeping the power I like and simplifying my decision-making process. I don't have to worry about a receiver's amp section, and whether or not the power supply is up to snuff, or excessive heat build up in the enclosure, etc.

BTW, I'm JFET front end, MOSFET output all the way with SS amps. My personal preference, which differs from many on this forum, is that well-crafted amps of this type are the most pleasing. Tubes are quaint and cute, but I've not evolved or devolved to the point where I really want them except possibly to be able to say I have them. I do have a couple of the newer Panasonic digital multichannel receivers (SA-XR10) in the shop, and at 100W/ch, I'm pretty impressed with how well they drive some of the power eaters, like the SVA Series.

Mr. Widget
04-15-2006, 12:34 PM
My last question is system matching. I know it can be critical for two channel but with home theater, powered subs and the like, is it as big an issue?I apologize if this has been discussed already, but are you putting together a system that is dedicated HT, a multichannel music system or one that will be used for either of those and as a two channel music system?


In my experience the application makes a huge difference on what equipment, speakers and subs you should use.


Widget

oznob
04-15-2006, 01:56 PM
I apologize if this has been discussed already, but are you putting together a system that is dedicated HT, a multichannel music system or one that will be used for either of those and as a two channel music system?


In my experience the application makes a huge difference on what equipment, speakers and subs you should use.


Widget

Hi Mr. Widget,

I am adding a room in the near future. It will be the music room. I will have a two channel system, drums, guitars, amps and board set up. I want to then put a dedicated HT in the living room with a big screen TV and surround. I think the Performance Series with the sats stacked on the subs will work best in that room. Will probably be just a 5.1 as I have an open side area with vaulted ceiling. Side effects would be a real problem. Hope to find a good price on the Performace series when I'm ready to it?

MJC
05-13-2006, 08:11 AM
So my solution in this case is to have the FL and FR Performance stacks running as four-way speakers, like L250s (or L7s or XPL200s), plus a PS1400 running as a dedicated LFE subwoofer. I really want to get one more PS1400 to run in that fashion. (Harman mulitsubs, you know. ;) )
JMO, of course. :bouncy:
Although I haven't had the pleasure of hearing the PS, my almost 30 years of experience with the L212s hits that right on the head. Two B212s are connected to the main L/R L212s, plus two sub1500s connected to the subout, with the sub1500s sitting at the mid-point of the sidewalls. Its a great combo.

bone215
05-18-2006, 10:49 AM
TiDome,
Am I correct in understanding your research leads to the tweeter in the S38 and other S line speakers is the same tweeter as in the performance series? I apologize in advance if I misread or skimmed past the many posts.
Just curious.
Thanks

Rusnzha
06-11-2006, 09:56 PM
I recently had the good fortune to spend a day listening to JBLnsince1959's Performance Series stereo set up. In addition to this he has a wonderful assortment of electronics. In the process I discovered the real meaning of "Big Mac" and it ain't hamburgers. We listened to various combinations of CD players and amplifiers and sometimes the results were totally counter intuitive. Just getting lots of high dollar stuff, isn't enough, you need to go through the process of trial and error. The best combination was the SACD player, a Mac pre-amp and the big mac.

We listened to a variety of music on SACD. The bass from the LE 14s was tight, clear and deep -- it caused me to rethink how I am using my big box 2241H. On the Miles Davis Sketches of Spain SACD, his trumpet was magical. There is no was to describe what these speakers can do in plain english. Well maybe you could describe them as psychedelic, but that still doesn't do them justice. In JBL terms, I think they could be described as L250Ti meets XPL plus some evolution. I think hearing these gave me some insight into what these other speakers sound like. I can't imagine what these better JBLs can do, but if you can find a way to swing it, I think they are worth it.

Last, but not least, I want to reiterate that Lansing Heritage Forums is more than a data base. It really is a community and I hope that it starts to feel more like one like it used to. One reason I think this matters is that as a community we can connect with each other to see and share things that otherwise would not be seen or shared. If this is only a database or a reference, we are limited to looking at facts and data that inform, but are no substitute for being there and all the other good things that can happen when we connect.

Thanks Rick and Catz for being great hosts and all you shared with us.

JBLnsince1959
06-12-2006, 07:43 AM
Thanks Rick and Catz for being great hosts and all you shared with us.

Well, you are certainly welcome and it was our pleasure also. We truely enjoyed your company and knowledge. The day just wasn't long enough for everything.

It was an interesting day for sure..Unfortunately with Whit's sudden hip problem right as you arrived ( she started limping serverly on her right, rear leg) we lost a little time and I lost some mental focus. Would have liked to have tried even more variations of equipment with "tighter" controls( I've got so much stuff in storage also :D )

I haven't done much with the PS since last fall so it was fun to "re-Listen" and play around. I certainly learned a thing or two. By the way, I'm back to using the Manrantz amps and testing with the variable volumn on the CD player for the time being. When I get some time I'll setup a true A/B test.

The "Big Mac" Russ was refering to was a MAC 402 - 400 watt amp. I haven't used it much since I got the PS ( it was for my 4430's )

I'll just like to say We really enjoyed you and Zhanna's company ( did I spell that corectly?) and hopefully we'll get to do this again..

I have a lot to say about the PS speakers from my testing and maybe some day I'll write about them if people care.

Stay in touch......

JBLnsince1959
06-12-2006, 08:02 AM
OH, forgot to say the SACD player we listened to was Rusnzha's. I never bought one as I was waiting to see how the format took off. It sounded great!!!!!

It's too sad that In the 21th century, we are listening to digital tech that was designed for 16 bit machines in the late 70's and early 80's. 16 bit tech is like using an apple computer built in 1980 and trying to run big company. It is like the model T car was.....

So some times I wonder why do we spend so much on equip only to run Model T sound thru it. seems kind of stupid to me.

The best sound i've heard from the PS was thru Rusnzha's SACD ( I haven't hooked up my analog and tube stuff)....thanks for the sounds..it's sad there aren't more disks available for the machines..

One more point, we had Rusnzha's Miles Davis Sketches of Spain SACD playing and then switched over to my regular CD version of Miles Davis Sketches of Spain and the difference was amazing.....

Anthony L100
06-14-2006, 02:50 PM
[quote=JBLnsince1959]I have a lot to say about the PS speakers from my testing and maybe some day I'll write about them if people care.

Yes please:), as soon as you like;).

Don C
06-14-2006, 05:59 PM
The PT800s are back on harmanaudio.com. They have lowered the price a bit too.

JBLnsince1959
06-14-2006, 06:16 PM
The PT800s are back on harmanaudio.com. They have lowered the price a bit too.

thanks for the tip..:applaud:

Rusnzha
06-15-2006, 10:34 PM
[quote=JBLnsince1959]I have a lot to say about the PS speakers from my testing and maybe some day I'll write about them if people care.

Yes please:), as soon as you like;).

There are a lot of different kinds of music I would like to hear on these. If your testing goes in this direction, I hope you will tell us about it.

JBLnsince1959
06-16-2006, 08:26 AM
There are a lot of different kinds of music I would like to hear on these. If your testing goes in this direction, I hope you will tell us about it.

Russ... I want to complete and implement my design for the "edge reducers" and then do complete testing...

you are welcome any time to come up and listen. We could time it the same days as the group meets if you and Zhanna like....we'll see..

right now I have to get focused ( 7days a week) with the business for about 3 months

What I would really like to get my hands on are boxes for the 260 ( I'm assumming that they are the same size as the 250) with the ultra tweeter and tweeter Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal™ (EOS) waveguides and then put the rest of the PS series in them.

Any body at JBL got a few old damaged 260 boxes laying around taking up space that you need to get rid of?????? I'll buy them :applaud: ... and I won't tell if you don't want me to...;)

Rusnzha
06-16-2006, 03:13 PM
Sounds good! I hope everything goes well for the next few months :smthsail:
When you are ready, I will bring Peter Gabriel and others on SACD.

MJC
06-18-2006, 07:55 AM
The PT800s are back on harmanaudio.com. They have lowered the price a bit too.
Ya, the PT800's are back, but no PT600 or PS1400s.
but there are Infinity Preludes and their subs a plenty.
And unlike the PS, I have heard the Preludes, back in 2000, at Laserland in San Jose. They were superb, but they should be for the price, $2400/ea plus the subs.

JBLnsince1959
06-18-2006, 08:22 AM
I hope everything goes well for the next few months :smthsail:


Well, I don't know about that, I'll just surrender to destiny; HOWEVER, Friday I got a call from Catz ( that's my lady's nickname ) at work that she had blown out her knee and was on her way to hospital so she's now in a cast and on crutches ( MRI tomorrow). If Zhanna has anything she thinks would help, let us know. I'm getting ready to do some Chi and other energy work plus some herbs later today

Hopefully all will go well for her AND me at work.


:
When you are ready, I will bring Peter Gabriel and others on SACD.

:banana: :dancin: :rockon1:

Titanium Dome
07-18-2006, 12:49 PM
TiDome,
Am I correct in understanding your research leads to the tweeter in the S38 and other S line speakers is the same tweeter as in the performance series? I apologize in advance if I misread or skimmed past the many posts.
Just curious.
Thanks

The tweeters appear to be similar models of Audax® Ti tweeters. The EOS Waveguides share some features, but they're not the same. The Performance Series has cast aluminum EOS Waveguides.

Titanium Dome
07-18-2006, 01:22 PM
I recently had the good fortune to spend a day listening to JBLnsince1959's Performance Series stereo set up. (snip)

We listened to a variety of music on SACD. The bass from the LE 14s was tight, clear and deep -- it caused me to rethink how I am using my big box 2241H. On the Miles Davis Sketches of Spain SACD, his trumpet was magical. There is no was to describe what these speakers can do in plain english. Well maybe you could describe them as psychedelic, but that still doesn't do them justice. In JBL terms, I think they could be described as L250Ti meets XPL plus some evolution. I think hearing these gave me some insight into what these other speakers sound like. I can't imagine what these better JBLs can do, but if you can find a way to swing it, I think they are worth it.
(snip)


The evolution of the JBL four-way system is a thing of beauty. Being lucky enough to have L250, XPL200, L7, and Performance Series all in one place, it's a delight to compare and contrast them. On any given day, I fall in love with any of them, but on most days, the PS is the one that does the most for me.

If the new 60th Anniversary JBL (not the TL260) is a four-way in the tradition of these other great four-ways, it'll be mighty impressive.

Titanium Dome
07-18-2006, 01:28 PM
(snip)

Last, but not least, I want to reiterate that Lansing Heritage Forums is more than a data base. It really is a community and I hope that it starts to feel more like one like it used to. One reason I think this matters is that as a community we can connect with each other to see and share things that otherwise would not be seen or shared. If this is only a database or a reference, we are limited to looking at facts and data that inform, but are no substitute for being there and all the other good things that can happen when we connect.


Well said, and the community aspect of it is very important. Community is how we preserve and respect the past, and it is also how we welcome and embrace the present, and anticipate the future.

Rick's willingness to share his PS (and other gear) with you was an open door which, among other things, allowed you to welcome and embrace the present state of JBL excellence. Well done all 'round. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
07-18-2006, 02:03 PM
If the new 60th Anniversary JBL (not the TL260) is a four-way in the tradition of these other great four-ways, it'll be mighty impressive.

If GT was allowed to do a new 250 with new stuff that would be great, but I'm sure that would not be the main event by a long shot..

Mostly I think they will be either replacing the Mighty K2 with a much more evolved speaker OR something completely new that will surpass it by lightyears. For a 60th ann. I'm sure it will be really something...I'm in the camp for something totally new and maybe an upgrade to the K2 ( I think they will keep it for it's price range)

It's time for something to replace the K2 as the TOP speaker, it's been 7+ years now that's a long time...they had been doing a new one about every 5 to 6 years..so they must be waitng for the 60th ann. to release it.

So...here's my prediction..

1. A totally new speaker to replace the K2 as the Top dog and it will be so far out there that only a few in Japan will be able to afford it.

2. They will keep the K2 for it's price point and maybe do a little tweeting on it so they can raise the price about $5000

3. Maybe a new 250..I personally would like to see something with Be tweeters and mid-range, ceramic midbass and totally reworked 14"..not likely they would do this...we'll see if they do a new 250 ( I'm 60/40 that they do this- who knows)..and if they do..will it be here in US???? the last one wasn't:biting: :banghead:

4. a long shot - a completely NEW Line of speakers designed to take on the audiophile croud and stomp them in dirt...It's time for JBL to change it's image in the consumer market from a wantabe to top dog again...

yogaplayer
07-19-2006, 12:27 PM
Is this a reasonable combo? From the picture, the S120 also has a metal plate on its top, similar to the PS1400. I wonder if the PT800 can be docked on the S120.

I'm considering this combo since it'll be at a lower cost and it's readily available on harmanaudio. This could be the least expensive way to get the titanium dome mid range in a commercial speaker, no?

Titanium Dome
07-26-2006, 10:35 PM
Is this a reasonable combo? From the picture, the S120 also has a metal plate on its top, similar to the PS1400. I wonder if the PT800 can be docked on the S120.

I'm considering this combo since it'll be at a lower cost and it's readily available on harmanaudio. This could be the least expensive way to get the titanium dome mid range in a commercial speaker, no?

The S120PII won't dock with a PT800. That plate on the top is made for BassQ.

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2006, 06:09 AM
The S120PII won't dock with a PT800. That plate on the top is made for BassQ.

yes, that's right... plus a whole lot of other concerns...

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2006, 10:42 AM
Russ came up again this weekend to hear the PS speakers again. He brought up some Sound Damping Fiber call Aciusta-Stuf and we stuffed the 800's. Seemed to improve the sound alot.. I'm going to do more with it and with damping vibrations on the 1400 to see what happens. I've been working with reducing the edges for the 800 to see how it sounds.

anyway if you want to improve the sound of the 800's we now have a total of three things
1. uses wire and not the standard connectors
2. Take of the grills - much better highs
3. Stuff the 800's

I'll be working on an "edge-Reduction" cover for the system when it's docked that will have sand and foam in it.

anyway, it was good to see Russ again and play with speakers.

thanks again Russ

Rusnzha
07-27-2006, 11:44 AM
Hey Rick -- It was my pleasure! We really appreciated you taking time from your busy schedule so we could come up during the prime time happenings. Thanks for the outings to the audio shops, everything's up to date in Kansas City. I saw all kinds of stuff that I don't have a shot at in Wichita and it's always a rush for me to listen to your Performance Series JBLs. I hope the 1400s like the acoustistuff as much the 800s did. HJames is right about the Boz Scaggs Dig CD, it kicked some serious ass on your setup and it is on my list of things to get next time I have money. Patricia Barber meets Performance Series was amazing. Thanks again for a great weekend, next time in Wichita!

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2006, 12:36 PM
HJames is right about the Boz Scaggs Dig CD, it kicked some serious ass on your setup and it is on my list of things to get next time I have money. !

I'm going to have to check that thread out some time. I didn't realize Hjames had mentioned it. Hat's off the HJames for having good taste in music ( it's one of my favorite CD's and is what I test true bass with)

Glad you and Zhanna enjoyed the weekend

cheers...

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2006, 01:41 PM
Just a note....one of the systems that Russ got to hear was JB Labs new Electra 1027 Be speaker... the 1027 beat the 800 in the high Freq with it's Be tweeter, there's a sound only Be can make but from 2000 Hz on down the PS series spanked the 1027 BIG TIME......I'm glad someone else could hear it. I'm not a fan of JB Labs W cones ( Love that tweeter) I think they suck..anyway compared to the PS the JM Labs sounded ..well..undefined, mushy..etc

I'll let Russ give his impression...anyway it was a real eye opener.

what was even more amazing was after we stuffed the 800's ( Sunday morning - he and his wife stayed over) the highs on the 800 became really super clear, clean and distinct and was ALMOST as good as the Be, or let me say it this way, after stuffing the highs got real clear and I didn't miss the Be tweeters....and the affect from the stuffing was not just with the highs but all the way down into the mid-bass.

My GOD, if only GT and the crew would put these things into a 250 body ( or even better - ceramic domes with Be tweeter)..since they aren't I'm going to have to....because the PS Boxes as designed for HT Modular docking, wall mounting etc are not optimised for 2 channel audiophile snob listening( rounded corners, thick baffle and box, time alignment etc etc)....BUT with a few changes ...... WOW ( and this is where they could kick ass on the other companies - I've been calling for an audiophile line to stomp the other companies - this could do it)

more and more i realize just how incredible the PS series is....Sat night we had a few friends over for pot-luck and a friend of mine Myron ( in my birthday picture) came downstairs to listen to the PS for the first time and he was amazed at the sound....yes, they really are that good...some times I can get jaded by the whole thing..but the more we do to them the better they get....

Russ do you have anything more to say????

Rusnzha
07-27-2006, 07:54 PM
Oh yeah, there's more. The performance Series beat the JMs except for the frequencies reproduced by the beryllium tweeter. The bass from the JMs was murky and boomy and the mids were pretty much run of the mill. They sounded OK at first, but the character of the speaker was the same no matter what they were playing. These things could get old in a hurry. Even my Studio Series is far more transparent, but the Performance Series takes it right into the twilight zone.

When we got home and sat down with the PS setup and Patricia Barber, I appreciated them even more than before we went out. There was no comparison. We listened for a while and then we opened them up and put the Acoustistuff in. The bass harmonics came into better focus -- no slop, no bullshit, just clean, well defined bass that went way, way down. The highs stood out better and more closely approximated the qualities of the beryllium tweeter on the JMs. I would like to hear JBL's berylllium, I bet they are really something. The mids were a little softer, but they had that indescribable quality that I can only refer to as the PS effect. They seemed to have plenty of room for all the things going on in the music and were clear, warm and spacious -- all the good stuff I've learned to expect from JBL, just a whole lot more of it.

Even with lesser, and older JBLs, when you improve on the stuff that was done due to cost constraints, it can be a revelation. The potential of these things is impossible for me to imagine.

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2006, 08:00 PM
Be = Beryllium

MJC
07-29-2006, 10:30 AM
My GOD, if only GT and the crew would put these things into a 250 body ( or even better - ceramic domes with Be tweeter)..since they aren't I'm going to have to....because the PS Boxes as designed for HT Modular docking, wall mounting etc are not optimised for 2 channel audiophile snob listening( rounded corners, thick baffle and box, time alignment etc etc)....BUT with a few changes ...... WOW ( and this is where they could kick ass on the other companies - I've been calling for an audiophile line to stomp the other companies - this could do it)

more and more i realize just how incredible the PS series is....Sat night we had a few friends over for pot-luck and a friend of mine Myron ( in my birthday picture) came downstairs to listen to the PS for the first time and he was amazed at the sound....yes, they really are that good...some times I can get jaded by the whole thing..but the more we do to them the better they get....

From all the speakers(produced by large companies, like JBL) I've auditioned over the years, if not all, at least most, there were compromises made somewhere in design. Either due to the input from the marketing department, or in the case of the PT800s to be used in multiple ways, for both HT and music.
Two speaker systems, of the ones I've heard, the 250Ti and the Infinity Prelude MTS, may very well be the closest speakers to having no compromises in their design.
Of my personal experiences with making improvements to stock speakers, if I bought the PT800s I'd want to build a box big enough to hold a Charged-Coupled crossover network, along with being mirror imaged. The design of the PT800s is way too much like the L212s not to make those changes, among the others you've mentioned.

yahmoncool
07-30-2006, 10:48 AM
I'm new to this line:

I have a question about setup.

Was planning on having the PT800s mounted to the subs (using two of their PS1400 beasts).

Can you help me out with setup - how should I set the back of the sub to blend best with the PT800s?

In addition - what do I need to do in the receiver (Denon 5805)?

I've calibrated many "normal" speakers - but these mounted PT800s are a different animal.

Just want to make sure I'm using their max potential.

Hope to hear from you very soon.

All the Best,

Michael

Titanium Dome
07-30-2006, 11:10 AM
Congrats on your first post.

We can answer you questions better if you give us just a little more information.

Are you planning to use the PT800/PS1400 stack as stereo, full range speakers?
If you're doing a surround system, how many other PT800s are you using?
Are you using a PC600 center?
Does the Denon 5805 allow you to set the sub crossover differently for mains, sides, and rears, or is there only one setting that affects all channels?

With this info, we can give you better advice. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 11:27 AM
Glad you are taking care of him as I don't have the time to go into depth..

yahmoncool
07-30-2006, 11:57 AM
Yes the 5805 DOES allow you to set crossovers individually.

I am using the PT800s as mains (stacked with PS1400s)
I am using the PC600 as the center
I am using the PT800s (side wall-mounted) as surrounds.

For music listening I'd like the PT800/PS1400 to act as a full-range stereo pair. I'll be using the Denon 5910 DVD/CD player for music and movies. Using the analog outputs for music.

For movies I want fluid digital surround sound with no bass gaps and deep-impact bass.

What settings must be changed in the receiver to achieve these aims? Also, what settings on the back of the sub?

Thanks.


PS - I've never done a setup with 2 subs... how do I set the sound output levels of the PT800/PS1400 combo? I was planning on setting the LF level to '0' and the LFE output to the middle setting and making output adjustments in the receiver.

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm a little confused as what you mean by two subs....do you have two separate subs in addition to the 1400's or are you counting the two 1400's as subs?

if all you have are two 1400's and they are stacked then they are no longer considered "subs" but part of the full range stack. If this is the case then the setup on page 12 of manual is where you to be. connect the 800's to 1400's ( use speaker wire NOT the connectors) and then set the crossover switch to "Normal" and connect the speaker wires.

i don't have much time as I working ( hard to believe) try this.

let me know if this is what you are doing....sounds to me like a regular setup. When I first go them it was confusing. if in doublt wait for whenDome, me or someone else can help

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2006, 01:41 PM
Michael:


I spoke to soon ( problem of doing two things at the same time)

should be page 10 of the manual - page 12 is if you want to mix in LFE...

page 10 if for normal setup....

BTW , sounds like a great system:bouncy:

yahmoncool
07-30-2006, 02:01 PM
Just stacking them... I counted them as 2 subs... just a regular setup.

yahmoncool
07-30-2006, 02:12 PM
So I output the speaker wire from the receiver into the back of the PS1400 and then hook speaker wire from the top of the PS1400 to the back of the stacked PT800?

This will yield the best sound? How about going the stacked but seperated with sub input from receiver?

How about bass output for movies? Majority of time with these speakers will be spent watching movies. Will the standard method (stacked, using normal mode and speaker wire, no sub input) still yield the best sound quality and deep-impact, loud bass?

Just to clarify - the receiver settings should be that the system does NOT have a subwoofer attached?

How do I calibrate the decibel output of the PT800/PS1400 combo being that they are stacked?

Should I crossover the PT800s in teh back and the PC600 in the front off at 80hz now?

Maybe I'm an idiot... but this lack of a discrete subwoofer (.1) channel is messing with my head ;).

If its not too much trouble, if you could do a play-by-play on how the system should be setup to sound the best for both movies AND music?

yahmoncool
07-31-2006, 03:31 PM
Any opinions?

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 04:34 PM
1) Speaker wire from the amp to the PS1400.

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 04:42 PM
Referring to the photo above:

2) Crossover on PS1400 set to normal.

3) Polarity set to normal to start.

4) LFE Level (inactive) so setting is irrelevant.

5) LF Level (active) set to 0 to start.

6) On/Off set according to preference. I started with Auto but ended up preferring Manual.

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 04:45 PM
7) Replaced the brackets with wire for better connectivity and improved sound.

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 05:06 PM
On my FAP T1+ pre/pro, I made the following selections:

8) Front Speakers: large; sub crossover: none; bass management +2dB @40Hz; Front Right +2dB SPL due to room; distance 9 ft.

9) Center Speaker: small; sub crossover 80Hz; distance 9 ft.

10) Surround Speakers: small; sub crossover 100Hz; distance 4 ft.

11) Rear Surround Speakers: small; sub crossover 100Hz; distance 5 ft.

12) Individual channel calibrations via RS SPL meter and FAP T1+ calibration tones.

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 05:34 PM
13) The system is run at 200/W channel to the PT800s and PC600 through two five-channel high current FAA1000.5 Transana JFET/MOSFET amps. This is a good complement to the PS1400 400W amps.

14) After several weeks of listening, the musical performance was ideal for my taste, but the HT occasionally disappointed on the low end. After reading and re-reading the Harman white paper on multisubs ( http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf ), I decided to add a dedicated sub, another PS1400. I used the Harman paper for initial placement.

15) This time I used the "Sub Out" on the back of the FAP T1+, connected a 12 ft. RCA cable, and ran it to the LFE/Subwoofer input on the PS1400.

16) Crossover setting is irrelevant due to the pre/pro already crossing over to the sub. I chose 100Hz on the pre/pro bass management, and I flipped the PS1400 crossover to Separate anyway.

17) LF Level (inactive) is irrelevant.

18) LFE Level is set according to calibration with RS SPL meter and built-in calibration tones.

19) Experiment with polarity to determine optimum setting.

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2006, 05:46 PM
Dome:

glad you did this as I haven't had the time...we're pulling a late nighter this evening( we can still talk tho;) ). Excellent job......:applaud:

Titanium Dome
07-31-2006, 05:46 PM
20) On the FAP T1+ it's possible to have a setting for music and a separate one for HT. This is accomplished through the assignment of inputs and sound modes. It also has analog stereo bypass for excellent stereo reproduction.

21) When playing surround sound audio through a digital input, the sub is active and all channels produce sound. Usually this applies to HT.

22) When playing surround sound audio through a 5.1 analog input, the subwoofer is active and all channels produce sound. This is DVD-A generally.

22) Stereo programming run through a digital input will be output through two (or more) channels as selected in the decoder. The sub is not active.

23) Stereo programming run through analog inputs will be output to the full range PT800/PS1400 stacked mains. This produces beautiful, musical, analog sound in a full range, four-way speaker system.

24) Whether your Denon can do most or all of this I don't know, but if it can, then you can easily have the best of both worlds (HT and music) in one excellent speaker package.

Good luck as you experiment with your system's capabilities and see what it can do.

Titanium Dome
08-06-2006, 03:16 AM
Did you bail on us, or are you still there? Was this helpful to you?

yahmoncool
08-10-2006, 08:14 PM
I'm here, and it was incredibly helpful.

Sorry, but I have been insanely busy at work and have not had the opportunity to test yet, but I will and I'll post my results. I'll be checking back here in a regular basis, henceforth - so no more delays :)!

Let me ask a few things, if you wouldn't mind:

First - does speaker wire really give you a significant boost in sound quality over the posts?

Second - why set your surrounds to 100? isn't 80 better, because they are rated to go down to 80.

Third - I dont know if the receiver has seperate settings for music and movies, however there would be a way to do it I'm sure.

Fourth - how do I set the SPL of the ps1400s (if running full-range). My test tone will check Front Left and Front Right dB levels - but won't the PS1400 interfere with the testing of the PT800? I ask because the PS1400 has its own volume control on the back of the unit. I'm trying to figure out how to make it such that the 1400/800 combo is a fluid, full-range device.

Fifth - I really dont want to go through the hassle of an added sub - how often did the movie bass output dissatisfy? And would it be possible to put a gain on the PS1400's output if movie output suffers (kinda like what you were talking about with different movies/music settings)?

Sixth - If I set my speakers to large and Sub to "No" in my receiver then when watching movies or listening to 5.1 audio will all the ".1" info go to the front speakers... and more specifically, the PS1400 component of the front speakers? Also - any info which may be sent to the center or surrounds that is below 80hz (if i crossover the rears and center at 80) will be sent to the mains?

Seventh - Is it possible to have the receiver gain the output of the PS1400s, when running as full-range mains? or would it have to boost the SPL of the whole unit?

I think thats it for now.

This is primarily a movie system - but music is a definite consideration.

Concerned mostly that the bass output will be unsatisfactory in movies.

MJC
08-11-2006, 05:37 AM
Second - why set your surrounds to 100? isn't 80 better, because they are rated to go down to 80.
I don't have the PS speakers, but I'd say its just a matter of preference. I prefer having the xover as low as possible. But if I remember right, for the PS main L/R, when the subs and PT800s are docked together and used full range, the suggested xover between them is 130htz.



Third - I dont know if the receiver has seperate settings for music and movies, however there would be a way to do it I'm sure.
I don't know what receiver you're using, but receivers have different surround modes, some for music, some for movies.


Fourth - how do I set the SPL of the ps1400s (if running full-range). My test tone will check Front Left and Front Right dB levels - but won't the PS1400 interfere with the testing of the PT800?
When you have a speaker set to full range in the receiver menu it takes that into consideration



Sixth - If I set my speakers to large and Sub to "No" in my receiver then when watching movies or listening to 5.1 audio will all the ".1" info go to the front speakers... and more specifically, the PS1400 component of the front speakers? Also - any info which may be sent to the center or surrounds that is below 80hz (if i crossover the rears and center at 80) will be sent to the mains?

Any time that the main speakers are set to 'large' and 'no sub' is selected, all the bass from all the other channels will be sent to the main speakers.

yahmoncool
08-13-2006, 11:28 PM
Thanks man - what happened to 1959 and Titanium, you guys disappear?

JBLnsince1959
08-14-2006, 05:57 AM
Thanks man - what happened to 1959 and Titanium, you guys disappear?

No, I'm still visible and people can see me:D ;) ...However, the last 3 weeks has been the SECOND busiest time for my business ( it has two big cycles - Jan-Feb and July-August) AND I've had an extreme family situation to deal with PLUS trying to work behind the scenes on a deal for some PS speakers at a store here in KC for some people AND helping a friend who just had a 3 way by-pass PLUS helping with a Breast Cancer Walk and fund drive that happened yesterday. So, I'm up to my eyesballs in "Gota Do's"

I'll let Dome talk for himself but I know that he was away for the weekend for some "quality time" with his girlfriend. He'll be back home this afternoon from what I understand.

Understand that when it comes to issues and questions on the forum we care and want to help, but we also have regular lives too. So it can take days or longer to get everyones' answer. I can "disappear" for weeks when my busy season happens..

Well, got to go. Thanks for thinking about us and wondering..

Hope all is well with the system

take care
rick

thrasher8
08-17-2006, 01:45 AM
Am looking to buy Used or New. But can't seem to find these speakers anywhere!!! :banghead:

ebay, harmanaudio.com, froogle have come up empty.

Tweeter has the PT800 - but can't find the rest of the system!

Thanks again for any help :nutz:

JBLnsince1959
08-17-2006, 08:08 AM
Am looking to buy Used or New. But can't seem to find these speakers anywhere!!! :banghead:

ebay, harmanaudio.com, froogle have come up empty.

Tweeter has the PT800 - but can't find the rest of the system!

Thanks again for any help :nutz:

Well, there are some PT800's listed in Harmons page
1. select Current Models
2. Select JBL Home

at the bottom you will see the PT800 listed for 899 retail,
the web page is:

http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?brand=JBL&status=C&market=HOM

However, ALL models ( 800, 600 and 1400) maybe listed on the harmon web site under Ad Specials shortly...

There's a really big store here in KC that had the PS series ( and at their home store in Omaha). The PS series hadn't sold and had been discontinued by the store. I spent weeks finding out what was there and trying to work out a deal for several memebers of the forum. At the last minute the store got a Return Authorization and was only willing to go so far on a price for us.

At the point I gave people the salesmans' number to call and order, the store reneged on our agreement and refused to sell the speakers:banghead: :banghead: :barf: . Seems like the buyers' boss ( or the buyer) wasn't comfortable selling below cost and having the added expensive and hassel of shipping speakers to people that had been on display as the store no longer had the boxes, also they had some concern about these being sold for a profit on the internet ( no). The speakers are to be returned to Harmon anyday. They are also returning 2 boxed 1400's and 16 boxed 800's ( it was the mother lode )

Bottom-line is that there will be 2 centers, 4 1400s and 8 800s opened PS speakers that were on display ( and played) in two stores that will be returning to Harmon and that store has no boxes for. So keep going out to the Harmon site and check under JBL pages

Most likey these will appear on Harmons web site under Ad Specials as Factory Remanufactured and may be listed below the $899 retail price for the 800's that shows under Current models page OR they will simply repackage everything and maybe place on the current models page...who knows..

I'll keep my personal opinions about the store and Harmon to myself.... :die: :bash: :nanana: :argue:

hope this helps:wave:

rick

thrasher8
08-17-2006, 12:14 PM
Awesome Rick! Thanks so much for the quick response and help!!! :applaud:

Too bad that store deal fell through. You must be one good negotiator to get below cost!

Looks like I'll be a regular visitor to the Harman site...wonder why there is such low inventory. Have they stopped production due to a new series coming up?

Thanks again :thmbsup:

JBLnsince1959
08-17-2006, 12:53 PM
Looks like I'll be a regular visitor to the Harman site...wonder why there is such low inventory. Have they stopped production due to a new series coming up?

Thanks again :thmbsup:

Thanks for the kind words, and no, I'm not that good of a negotiator . In fact I was talking to everyone and in particular Dome to help me out. However, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once;)

I'm not sure what Harmon's policy on the return of the unboxed speakers is, but there is a chance that they'll be on the site sometime soon. If the opened speakers on display do NOT show up on the AD Specials page then we'll know more about Harmon won't we.

As far as the future of the PS series, I have no earthly idea.

It really was the chance of a life time as far as I was concerned and several people have been bummed out. But you know, everything works out some times and maybe there will be better deals out there. I just wish they had addressed those issues BEFORE rather than at the last minute. It's not like I didn't ask about everything many times. They kept quoting Harmon policies and saying that maybe, who knows, there's a chance, we guess, we're not sure of, of getting Harmon mad at them.

Well, good luck in your search for the ever wanted but impossible to find PS speakers.

After re-reading this I'm going add a little more as it sounds like I'm bitter:rolleyes:

In all fairness to the store they did say that people could have them IF they came and got them ( shipping may have been the deal breaker AND the price was 10% and more below their cost) BUT in the same breath said the speakers were going back that night or the next morning. Not giving us time to regroup. Also, I'll like to say that the salesman really worked hard for us and is a great kid.

Ok, enough of this

rick

thrasher8
08-17-2006, 04:22 PM
Thanks again for the help Rick :spin:

I'm sure the salesman didn't have the final say on what eventually happened. Probably the big boss put a stop to it :hmm:

Just curious...what was the dealer cost?

Am still amazed at the lack of suppliers and inventory regarding such a great product. Will keep looking...anybody that sees any New or Used...please post.

Thanks again!
:dj-party:

JBLnsince1959
08-17-2006, 04:35 PM
I'm sure the salesman didn't have the final say on what eventually happened. Probably the big boss put a stop to it :hmm:

Just curious...what was the dealer cost?





Your correct, the salesman wanted to do it and was very helpful even when he had to give us the bad news.. It was either the buyer, his boss or the manager in Omaha that got "cold-feet" and put the brakes on the deal as far as shipping them.

if everyone lived here it would have been a great deal for sure, in fact I'm going by tonight just to look;) . I decided not to buy any as I don't need them, but I'm going to see if they are there...

As far as the price ...weeeell, I'm not sure that saying it on an open forum is a good idea. I hope you understand..sorry

Titanium Dome
08-17-2006, 05:57 PM
I want to publicly thank Rick for all the effort he put into this. He didn't have to do it.

Though it turns out that life isn't fair, it's good to know that friends are. He proved himself both fair and a friend in trying to make this work for many members of the LH site.

Gracias, amigo. :applaud:

As a major fan of the Performance Series, I'm delighted with his advocacy.

Rusnzha
08-17-2006, 08:03 PM
Originally written by Titanium Dome


I want to publicly thank Rick for all the effort he put into this. He didn't have to do it.

Though it turns out that life isn't fair, it's good to know that friends are. He proved himself both fair and a friend in trying to make this work for many members of the LH site.

Gracias, amigo. :applaud:
Well said Dome, It was an incredible effort on Rick's part. I hope the gods of karma shower him with the best JBL goodies :cheers::cheers:

thrasher8
08-17-2006, 09:41 PM
As far as the price ...weeeell, I'm not sure that saying it on an open forum is a good idea. I hope you understand..sorry

Understandable. And thanks again for all the great help.

Please post if those speakers are still there...10% below dealer sounds too good to pass up!

Thanks again :rockon2:

JBLnsince1959
08-18-2006, 08:23 AM
Thanks for the kind words Russ and Dome.

I'll be philosophical/spiritual here for a moment and just say that physical things come and go but it's the bond we create with people that stays and truly enriches our lives. While the "deal" itself CRASHED AND BURNED" to complete ashes in glorious fashion:banghead: , it gave me an a rare opportunity to get to know several people on the forum in a manner that nothing else could. So let me thank all of you for your understanding, patience, suggestions, and comradery. It was truly an honor to work with all of you. :bouncy: Sorry the deal went south:(

Dome, I would like to offer a personal and public thank you for being with me on this and for our long conversations in startegy on the phone even tho you personally had a lot of "irons in fire" going on. Personally this couldn't have happened at a worst time for me ( see above) and your intelligence, steadfastness and insights provided an immeasurable assistance.:applaud: you're one hell of a dude....:rockon2:

Ditto to you Russ...also, in the two times that I've meet Russ and all the phone conversations and PM's, Russ has become a close friend to me...thanks again...

When Dome and I first discussed this we decide against making it public so that there was not a "Feeding Frenzy". If we somehow missed anyone I apologize.



Please post if those speakers are still there...10% below dealer sounds too good to pass up!



PM me about the speakers and also, let me know where you are located.

also, understand that THEY said it was 10% below their cost....:dont-know

Well, the weekend is coming up and I need a break...I think the picture below says it all for me......

thrasher8
08-18-2006, 09:25 PM
Thanks again Rick. No worries...will probably wait for a brand new set to become available. :)

JBLnsince1959
08-19-2006, 06:08 AM
Thanks again Rick. No worries...will probably wait for a brand new set to become available. :)

good choice, as anything is unpredictable...

JBLnsince1959
08-19-2006, 06:09 AM
Thanks again Rick. No worries...will probably wait for a brand new set to become available. :)

good choice, as anything here is unpredictable...

thrasher8
08-20-2006, 04:16 PM
Thanks again for all the great help Rick! :applaud:

yogaplayer
08-22-2006, 02:03 PM
Older review by long time reviewer whose ears seem to agree with mine in general:
http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31/

Short review but very positive. Measurements look good too. Very flat with a roll off above 10k Hz. As I've read, the high frequency roll off is a result of subjective listening tests at JBL, and is a usual feature with a number of JBL consumer speakers, including the Revel line.

The Revel line is really impressive, but that's a different story.

Titanium Dome
08-26-2006, 10:57 PM
(snip)

The Revel line is really impressive, but that's a different story.

Well, if one were looking for a 4" Ti midrange and Ti tweeter, one could get the Revel Ultima Salon instead of the JBL Performance Series. ;)

Titanium Dome
08-30-2006, 04:21 PM
Noodling around the 'net for Performance Series info I caught this preview of the Electronic House Expo this spring with this title:


JBL® To Go All Out At Electronic Hose Expo 2006 (EHX) With Spectacular Home Entertainment System Demonstrations

Now, where did I put that Electronic Hose?

JBLnsince1959
08-30-2006, 08:42 PM
Now, where did I put that Electronic Hose?

Electronic hose???????

sounds like something that uses batteries and used in the bedroom.:D

That maybe the first JBL my lady can REALLY get into and doesn't mind if they are big.:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
08-31-2006, 08:32 AM
In case you missed it, Techbot's done us another big favor.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12056

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12057

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12058

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12059

Titanium Dome
08-31-2006, 08:37 AM
We have a name/number for that da#n tweeter: TM025

Titanium Dome
08-31-2006, 08:46 AM
Look at this PS chart.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122641&postcount=4

JBLnsince1959
08-31-2006, 10:36 AM
Look at this PS chart.
[/url]

nice...you know one thing I've wondered about tho...Giskard once mentioned the LE14H-3 should be in a box about 30% larger...I've been wondering what the true size of that should be, the port dim's and tuning... Would be nice to know when building new boxes for these puppies and getting away from the modular design.....

MJC
09-04-2006, 06:46 PM
Between what I see and don't see on Harman's online store, Tweeter and from what a couple of people associated with JBL Synthesis told me, and a dealer, it would seem that the PS1400 is a vanishing item.
Both Tweeter and Harmanonline are selling the PT800s but no PS1400s.
Also, a district manager for Synthessis and a dealer have told me that instead of using the PS1400s they use the HTPS400, a 1000w THX sub, that is smaller than the PS1400. In fact its a perfect cube! I thought that was a no no.
That means no docking of the PT800 to the subs, then again most, if not all, Synthesis installs are in-wall, or at least on wall.
I guess so much for the idea of ever putting together a fairly high-end stereo full range set of PS towers, w/o using completely different subs.

Titanium Dome
09-04-2006, 09:06 PM
I hope you're not correct, but you probably are. The Performance Series has had six or so years in the marketplace. For many reasons, including poor marketing and availability, it's not the success it deserves.

Once the PS1400 is gone, the series morphs into something else. When JBL took the HTPS400 from the HT Series and moved it into the Performance Series, the writing was on the wall for the PS1400. The LE14H-3 appeared in the Project Array Series and the PS1400's fate seemed sealed. It'd be great to have that 1000W amp with an LE14H-3, eh?

For those of us with several PS1400s, we always have the option of building improved cabinets to enhance the LE14H-3. There's certainly more to be done with that driver.

Another option might be to go straight to a Revel B15 or Sub30, which I've been considering. That would sure kick it up a notch, though I'd want to keep two PS1400/PT800 stacks as full range speakers for two channel music. Then I'd use a pair of B15s or a single Sub30 in the Harman white paper two-sub positions for the real bottom end on HT and multi-channel audio.

Mr. Widget
09-05-2006, 12:01 AM
The Performance Series are really very good speakers and while they were well engineered, they deserve to die. Their aesthetic design was an underachiever from the start. A speaker of it's caliber and price point has to be furniture too... it cannot be the vinyl clad junk that JBL foisted onto their dealers. Most of the dealers said no F***ing way! They know their market.

I expect they will live on as inwall speakers as part of the Synthesis line:

http://www.jblsynthesis.com/products/product_detail.aspx?prod=S4VC&Language=ENG&Country=US&Region=USA

Hidden in the wall these speakers will make beautiful music and reproduce movie soundtracks in a way that can make JBL proud.

As for pairing them with the Revel subs... I don't think they will play the upper bass as well as the LE14s do... a DIY sub would most likely be the best choice... or perhaps one from REL. At least for two channel music playback... for surround or HT, I guess any quality sub would be great.


Widget

JBLnsince1959
09-05-2006, 05:30 PM
I agree with Widget except on the looks of the PS series. They were at best modular speakers ( function over form) and are not too bad in looks. They tried to make one set of speakers do everything and it almost worked..

As far as the bass he's dead on...I got a nice PM from Techbot answering my question above and he addressed other issues also...



JBLnsince1959 - Giskard once mentioned the LE14H-3 should be in a box about 30% larger...I've been wondering what the true size of that should be, the port dim's and tuning..

3.4 to 4.0 cu ft tuned to 28 to 30 Hz. I use 4.0 cu ft tuned to 28 Hz myself (basically L150/L150A sized/styled boxes). They still don't go as "deep" as my sealed box 121H's or SUB1500's but who cares? They are strong and accurate transducers over their bandwidth.

Just depends on what you want to with the PS. If you are doing HT ( and have the 800's separate) then a "better" sub could come into play...if you are using it as a 2 channel then I feel it would be a mistake to NOT use the LE14...In listening to music I've never felt the need for more bass and their ability to play musical bass is excellant....

As I've mentioned before the over all design is very clever and for HT is a homerun...for 2 channel listening however the modular design starts to hurt the sound...Now understand I'm speaking from an audiophile perspective here. One thing I noticed right off the bat with these puppies ( and I only do 2 channel right now ) was a weakness in the mid-bass..I tried everything to bring it in( wires etc), then one day I was listening and thinking of the 2 box design and wondered about what the bottom of the 800 was doing to the sound as far as refraction ( and bouncing off the 1400) was concerned so I rolled up a throw rug ( rubber side in) and stuff it in between the 800 and the 1400...instantly the mid-bass fill out, BUT, also a considerable amount of "glare" was gone...kind of like when we connected with wires and not the connectors. It even seemed to smooth out the mids and highs (?) so I draped the 800 too.

Russ heard the difference when he was here and it's very noticable....

So from a HT perspective the PS series is great..from a 2 channel audiophile perspective they are somewhat lacking as the modular design is the antithesis of good audiophile box design.

BUT here's what blows my mind....the 2 channel PS series has everything going against it as far as audiophile box design is concerned but even then they blow away amost everything else( they stomped the shit out of the JM Labs stuff). Those Ti Domes working together are unbelievable, so musical and are matched well with the 1400.

the only thing left for me to do with them is to build a 250 style box with extra heavy baffle, angled for the Ti Domes for time-alignment, active cross over for the 1400 and CC crossovers for the TI Domes.....

Speaking of baffles, does anyone know where a person can buy 2 sheets of the carbon fiber composite stuff they used on the LSR 32 baffle...and how to cut it?

Mr. Widget
09-05-2006, 05:45 PM
They were at best modular speakers ( function over form) and are not too bad in looks.I guess I believe that a speaker system that costs a few thousand dollars should be inspiring and add beauty to your environment instead of simply not being too bad.


They tried to make one set of speakers do everything and it almost worked..Actually your points about the modularity make sense... I really hadn't thought about it too much, but I imagine that there are sonic compromises due to that design. I know with my own system once I integrated the subwoofer into the system proper, the sound became much more cohesive. I also agree that at the mid bass frequencies the baffle is important... having the modular baffle that the PS has will likely negatively affect this region.


Widget

Mr. Widget
09-05-2006, 05:51 PM
Speaking of baffles, does anyone know where a person can buy 2 sheets of the carbon fiber composite stuff they used on the LSR 32 baffle...and how to cut it?The LSR baffles were molded and cast. Carbon fiber is essentially fiberglass... you typically make a mold and lay the carbon fiber fabric into it and pour in or brush on epoxy resin... when it is cured you can cut it with a router, bandsaw, jigsaw etc... I suppose you can probably buy carbon fiber sheeting that is pre cast, but dealing with the edges would be tough if you didn't frame it with something.


Widget

JBLnsince1959
09-05-2006, 05:57 PM
I guess I believe that a speaker system that costs a few thousand dollars should be inspiring and add beauty to your environment instead of simply not being too bad.


Widget

I understand what you are saying and a part of me agrees, but then I can be a little forgiving to them for that. I quess they had to cut corners somewhere...

Yes, for the money they are lacking in visual some...

JBLnsince1959
09-05-2006, 06:49 PM
The LSR baffles were molded and cast. Carbon fiber is essentially fiberglass... you typically make a mold and lay the carbon fiber fabric into it and pour in or brush on epoxy resin... when it is cured you can cut it with a router, bandsaw, jigsaw etc... I suppose you can probably buy carbon fiber sheeting that is pre cast, but dealing with the edges would be tough if you didn't frame it with something.


Widget

Thanks for the info...looks like I have more to learn here.

MJC
09-05-2006, 06:54 PM
I hope you're not correct, but you probably are. The Performance Series has had six or so years in the marketplace. For many reasons, including poor marketing and availability, it's not the success it deserves.
I think its been only 4.5 years. It was in Spring '02 that I first read a review of the PS in SGHT.
JBL Performance surround speaker system (http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31)
J. Gordon Holt, Vol.8No.5, June, 2002


It'd be great to have that 1000W amp with an LE14H-3, eh?
I doubt the LE14 could handle 1000w


The Performance Series are really very good speakers and while they were well engineered, they deserve to die. Their aesthetic design was an underachiever from the start. A speaker of it's caliber and price point has to be furniture too... it cannot be the vinyl clad junk that JBL foisted onto their dealers. Most of the dealers said no F***ing way! They know their market.

Yes, I totally agree, its one thing for speakers like the Studio L to be vinyl clad @ $1400'pr(890s). But a speaker system like the PS, where the retail price for ONE PT800 is $1700 and you still have to add a sub to make it a full range speaker, well it should be wood veneer. I've always thought that even though the L212 bases were veneer, for the price($2000) so should have been the boxes, instead of black paint PB.


I agree with Widget except on the looks of the PS series. They were at best modular speakers ( function over form) and are not too bad in looks. They tried to make one set of speakers do everything and it almost worked..

They should be able to do everything. According to Giskard, the PS is way ahead of the L212(the PS is of coarse the latest generation of the L212). And I can say, through experience, that the L212 can do both music and HT, and do it better than most, of what I've heard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot
JBLnsince1959 - Giskard once mentioned the LE14H-3 should be in a box about 30% larger...I've been wondering what the true size of that should be, the port dim's and tuning..

3.4 to 4.0 cu ft tuned to 28 to 30 Hz. I use 4.0 cu ft tuned to 28 Hz myself (basically L150/L150A sized/styled boxes). They still don't go as "deep" as my sealed box 121H's or SUB1500's but who cares? They are strong and accurate transducers over their bandwidth.

The 121s and the Sub1500s can really get DOWN.



As I've mentioned before the over all design is very clever and for HT is a homerun...for 2 channel listening however the modular design starts to hurt the sound...Now understand I'm speaking from an audiophile perspective here. One thing I noticed right off the bat with these puppies ( and I only do 2 channel right now ) was a weakness in the mid-bass..

What about separating the subs from the towers? After all that's how the L212s are, and they only had one 75w sub, originally.
Why not try this; build or buy bases for the PT800s, so they stand as high as when docked to the subs. Set the subs to either the inside or outside of the PT800s. Then connect the towers and subs with speaker wire, as you have now, I think, and then run the speaker wires from the amp to the subs, and let the internal crossover do its thing. That's how I have my main L212s/12"subs setup.

JBLnsince1959
09-05-2006, 07:10 PM
I What about separating the subs from the towers? After all that's how the L212s are, and they only had one 75w sub, originally.
Why not try this; build or buy bases for the PT800s, so they stand as high as when docked to the subs. Set the subs to either the inside or outside of the PT800s. Then connect the towers and subs with speaker wire, as you have now, I think, and then run the speaker wires from the amp to the subs, and let the internal crossover do its thing. That's how I have my main L212s/12"subs setup.

personally I wouldn't for 2 channel because the crossover points are different between the two systems. The PS when docked are crossed over at 130 whereas the 212 crossover is much lower( 80 or lower I believe).

Once you get around 80 or lower it gets harder for the ear to tell directions of the bass notes, which it why the 212 works so well ( and others also). over a hundred it would really be noticeable to me and my ears.

with the crossover at 130 on the PS if I were to place the 1400 off center from the 800 it would drive me crazy..but that's just me..I would perfer them as they are...

I've gone thru about 8 different major design considerations and the 250 box style appears to be the best for what i want.....it will be improved upon tho....

Now, it looks like I have to learn more about building molds and creating a carbon fiber composite baffle..:bouncy:

Once I'm done with the PS then it's back to HORNS:applaud:

MJC
09-05-2006, 07:19 PM
Ya, the L212s xover is at 70. I wouldn't have thought the 130 xover would have been a problem if the sub is right next to the tower.
I only suggested trying it, because it sounded as if you weren't happy with the baffle alignment when docked.

JBLnsince1959
09-05-2006, 07:34 PM
Ya, the L212s xover is at 70. I wouldn't have thought the 130 xover would have been a problem if the sub is right next to the tower.
I only suggested trying it, because it sounded as if you weren't happy with the baffle alignment when docked.

I considered it and it's a good idea, just not for me....

It's not that I'm unhappy with them as they are ( in fact I love them)..it's the perfectionist in me that wants to redesign everything I have. the transducers are really great and I'll just like to put them into a box that is just as great and see what I get...Everything I do to the puppies just makes them better so I want to take them to the limit

Understand I'm wanting to take the HT design and make an audiophile design....it's crazy, but hey why not..

MJC
09-05-2006, 07:44 PM
Understand I'm wanting to take the HT design and make an audiophile design....it's crazy, but hey why not..
I understand that totally. When I thought I could get my hands on a "full" pair, @ basement bargain prices, that was my exact thought. And I've never had the pleasure of hearing the PS, I was only going off what Giskard told me in a pm. He had first hand knowledge in comparing the PS to the L212, and the PS won hands down. And I like my L212s, need it say more.

Titanium Dome
09-05-2006, 09:11 PM
I think its been only 4.5 years. It was in Spring '02 that I first read a review of the PS in SGHT.
JBL Performance surround speaker system (http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/31)
J. Gordon Holt, Vol.8No.5, June, 2002

Dude, how could you doubt me?

JBL news release 6 January 2000: JBL INTRODUCES NEW HIGH-END PERFORMANCE SERIES LOUDSPEAKERS AT CES 2000 (http://www.dba-pr.com/clients/jbl/releases/performance.htm)

MJC
09-06-2006, 08:12 PM
Well, anyone can be wrong, this time its me. But I never saw that Jan 00 release info. Like I said, the first time I saw anything about the PS was in that June '02 review.
And it was Dec 2000 that my son and I went down to San Jose to check out the Infinity Preludes, had I know about the PS then, I would have looked around for those too. And its only been a few days ago that I found out that the PS are Vinyl clad, I just assumed they were wood veneer, considering their price.

Titanium Dome
09-14-2006, 03:05 AM
I picked up a sub off ebay. It's the old HT Series cum new Performance Series cum Synthesis Four subwoofer, the HTPS400.

It has a 12" anodized metal alloy woofer with a 1000W amp. The enclosure is surprisingly small, and it's sealed. The enclosure is also a cube, 14.6" to a side. The cabinet has real wood veneer on it.

It's got some serious output, which in some respects seems to be better than the PS1400 (when used exclusively as a sub). The HTPS400 seems diminutive next to a PS1400.

In the next few days, I'll see if I have time to do a dissection and post some pictures.

Titanium Dome
09-14-2006, 03:17 AM
In the meantime, anyone interested can get a quick look at the HTPS400 here:

http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Quick%20Specs/HTPS400.pdf

Take a look at that response graph. No wonder that woofer is a $700+ driver.

MJC
09-14-2006, 04:20 AM
I picked up a sub off ebay. It's the old HT Series cum new Performance Series cum Synthesis Four subwoofer, the HTPS400.

It a 12" anodized metal alloy woofer with a 1000W amp. The enclosure is surprisingly small, and it's sealed. The enclosure is also a cube, 14.6" to a side. The cabinet has real wood veneer on it.

It's got some serious output, which in some respects seems to be better than the PS1400 (when used exclusively as a sub). The HTPS400 seems diminutive next to a PS1400.

In the next few days, I'll see if I have time to do a dissection and post some pictures.
All those points are exactly what the local Synthesis dealer told me, when he told me about using the HTPS400, in place of the PS1400.
And as Giskard always said, a sealed sub will always be better than a ported, of equal quality.
It would seem that the LE14H-3 has been dedicated to do the Project Array and pulled off the PS.

Titanium Dome
09-14-2006, 04:50 AM
I couldn't find a Tech Sheet. Anyone have a link?

Skoda
09-20-2006, 06:32 PM
TD, can't help but glare at your system:D something I would like to accomplish some time soon:blah: , I was wonder if you had connected up the Htps400 yet? would love to see some pics, and your thoughts about the performance of it.:)

Best regards
Skoda

Titanium Dome
09-20-2006, 08:09 PM
TD, can't help but glare at your system:D something I would like to accomplish some time soon:blah: , I was wonder if you had connected up the Htps400 yet? would love to see some pics, and your thoughts about the performance of it.:)

Best regards
Skoda


Skoda,

I gotta tell you, I have a new favorite 12" driver for subwoofer duty. :yes: The HTPS400 is an awesome piece of equipment, and there is a discernible difference in low end performance.

Later this week, I'll try to get some pictures and give more of a subjective review.

In the meantime, here's a sub comparison which includes the HTPS400.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=1&article_id=290

Titanium Dome
09-20-2006, 08:12 PM
Just when you think it's over, it starts all over again. :rotfl:

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/270832.html

Did you see all this stuff at CEDIA?

MJC
09-23-2006, 09:13 AM
Just when you think it's over, it starts all over again. :rotfl:

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/270832.html

Did you see all this stuff at CEDIA?
This is very good news, to say the very least. With the starting price at $10k, would mean a fair price reduction, compared to the combined total cost for a 5 channel system at their listed prices.
I don't remember if you bought the sub1500, but if you did, how does it compare to HTPS400?

Zilch
09-23-2006, 10:38 AM
Great.

"Custom" series, "Specialist" series, and "Integrator" series.

Add those to at least three others at Harman Consumer, and two in Control Contractor.

Requires a friggin' MATRIX to figure out the current positionings. :p

[Not my job, thankfully....]

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 10:49 AM
Great.

"Custom" series, "Specialist" series, and "Integrator" series.

Add those to at least three others at Harman Consumer, and two in Control Contractor.

Requires a friggin' MATRIX to figure out the current positionings. :p

[Not my job, thankfully....]


It's more like the Kama Sutra you'll be needing to figure this out. Feel the love...

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:07 PM
All right, I finally have the time to do this, so here's a physical examination of the HTPS400.

First up are a couple of views from the top, giving you the relative dimensions of the PS1400 and HTPS400.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:10 PM
From the front, with the grilles removed, you can compare the front dimensions and see the different drivers. The PS1400's FreeFlow Ports are in evidence, while the HTPS400 is a sealed enclosure and a perfect cube.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:17 PM
The grilles is a real pain to get off, as it requires a very small jeweler's screwdriver and lots of careful patience. The driver itself is held in place by eight bolts that are threaded into t-nuts in the approximately 2" thick MDF baffle. The driver is recessed into the baffle about 1/2" to allow the round grille a flush fit.

The 12" driver is heavy and has a large shield on it with a foilcal.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:20 PM
The 12" driver has a cast frame, a thick surround, and an anodized Aluminum cone. This side view shows the general relief.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:22 PM
Nice job with the pics TD:applaud: never ceasse to amaze

man does that sub ever look good...maybe I should get the synthesis dealer on the phone:D :bouncy:

that encloser is quite small, though I'am sure its for the best:) nothing like a sleeper for a sub:thmbsup:

Cheers Skoda

I'll make some subjective comments later, but in short this little cube kicks some serious butt. :moon:

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:25 PM
For the terminally curious, here's a slightly different angle that lets you read (upside down) the sticker on the side.

A little help: 60A-JBD

Skoda
09-23-2006, 04:27 PM
Nice job with the pics TD:applaud: never ceasse to amaze

man does that sub ever look good...maybe I should get the synthesis dealer on the phone:D :bouncy:

that encloser is quite small, though I'am sure its for the best:) nothing like a sleeper for a sub:thmbsup:

Cheers Skoda
sorry to have deleted but felt it nesscary to relocate after the pics:bouncy:

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:51 PM
Getting a useable shot of the front of the driver was a challenge. It's all black. The camera couldn't find a focus point. Eventually I used a trouble light to create a point of light on the large, metallic dust cap, and I got a good enough focus to get a reasonable shot.

It's an amazing looking driver in person, and, as I said before, quite heavy for a 12 incher.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 04:56 PM
This thing has a 1000W digital amp, and unlike the 400W amp in the PS1400, this amp is not inside a cover. It's right there in plain sight in the back of the cabinet, transformers and all.

You can also see the brace at the midpoint of the enclosure and the generous amount of batting being used inside this sealed interior.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 05:04 PM
The rear panel is somewhat simpler than the PS1400's. The most notable difference is the absence of speaker-level inputs. There is one line-level input and one output, switchable for THX use or for normal use.

The difference? THX input uses an internal THX-compliant 80Hz network, while normal input is controlled by the built-in crossover.

You can see the THX Ultra logo and the BASH® mark.

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 05:26 PM
From the Sound and Vision piece, here's a look at the HTPS400 specs.

As for the cost factor, I'm happy to report I paid about 25% of that price. :D

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 05:28 PM
The Sound and Vision folks did a few measurements, too, so I repeat those here for posterity and your personal edification.

MJC
09-23-2006, 05:41 PM
Now I see why all the Synthesis Dealers use the HTPS400, instead of the PS1400. @ 1000w its putting out 200w more than my sub1500s(each, not combined), connected to half of a Crown K2.

Zilch
09-23-2006, 05:47 PM
Now I see why all the Synthesis Dealers use the HTPS400, instead of the PS1400. @ 1000w its putting out 200w more than my sub1500s(each, not combined), connected to half of a Crown K2.That doesn't translate to acoustic power output necessarily.

Gotta know the relative driver efficiencies in the particular alignments involved.

[OR, measure them....]

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 05:54 PM
To review, I have two PS1400s stacked with PT800s and used as full range loudspeakers (not as sub units). I also have one PS1400 hooked up as a subwoofer, as the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1 surround.

When I first put the HTPS400 into the above Performance Series system, I noticed an immediate and pleasing improvement.

When the HTPS400 joined the family, I was quite impressed. After a few days of listening, I was playing the DTS 5.1 version of Days of Future Passed, and decided to experiment by disconnecting the HTPS400. My expectation was a fall off in bass. In reality there was no discernible difference with the darn thing on or off.

So, was I a victim of rising expectations? Did I imagine an improvement at first because I expected an improvement? :hmm: If this were true, I'd be a very sad boy.

Over the next several days, I experimented with a number of recordings, movies, and input configurations, and a trend began to emerge.

First, I had to learn to better utilize analog bass management on my pre/pro.

Second, I had to ignore the THX setting and rely on the normal input setting.

Third, following the Harman white paper, I tried wall midpoint positioning until I discovered that the center front wall was the best place for the unit—right under the center channel.

Fourth, I realized that the first music I listened to when I installed the unit was quite different than the DOFP recording, which was a fine DTS remaster but almost completely lacking in LF and VLF material. The first thing I listened to was Sting's Ten Summoner's Tales, a recording done under much more exacting conditions and mastered with a far broader frequency range.

Fifth, during movie playback, the VLF material was definitely more visceral, yet clean.

Sixth, there was much greater articulation of notes played on a well-recorded bass, with no boominess or goofy resonances.

So it seems that the smaller, sealed, and rigid enclosure, coupled with the extra power, the rigid cone, the lower frequency response at higher output levels, and the low distortion all work together to provide a lower, more articulate, and more powerful sound at the very bottom of the range, say 25Hz to 35Hz, and from there on up, there's no difference that I can discern subjectively. So it's that narrow band of improvement that seems to add so much.

There were times with the PS1400s that I wished for just a little more bottom end. I had no idea that a 12" driver would be the thing to bring it to me. This little cube can really kick some ass. :moon: Two of them, as recommended by JBL would be amazing, but one in conjunction with the PS1400 is enough for me. :yes:

Titanium Dome
09-23-2006, 06:29 PM
I probably should have mentioned that I ran some test tones and made some in-room measurements as well. This was to give me a mechanical verification of what I was hearing and not hearing.

For sources, I used the venerable Soundcraftsmen test record and the audio sweeps and tones on the DVD version of Digital Video Essentials. For tone generation I used the AS1000 pink noise and for calibration/measurement I used the RS analog SPL meter's mic patched into an AE2000.

Yeah, I know some of that sh#t's old, but it still works great, and it's what I've got. :p

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:03 PM
There were times with the PS1400s that I wished for just a little more bottom end. I had no idea that a 12" driver would be the thing to bring it to me. This little cube can really kick some ass. :moon: Two of them, as recommended by JBL would be amazing, but one in conjunction with the PS1400 is enough for me. :yes:
Maybe you need something like this;
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=13233&stc=1&d=1140887431
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=15278&stc=1&d=1146408703

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:17 PM
Time to load.

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:25 PM
Pre-tty.

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:29 PM
Who's your daddy?

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:31 PM
Care to see my backside?

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:32 PM
Full Monty.

mikebake
09-28-2006, 05:34 PM
Clothes on.