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bbrown
05-30-2005, 01:24 PM
I thought everybody knew you were supposed to lift the boxes off the components.

I do computer support where I work, and have to set up too many printers, monitors, etc. to not do it that way.

New systems... This makes me want to spend money I don't have.:banghead:

Bruce

Titanium Dome
05-30-2005, 01:56 PM
I thought everybody knew you were supposed to lift the boxes off the components.

I do computer support where I work, and have to set up too many printers, monitors, etc. to not do it that way.

New systems... This makes me want to spend money I don't have.:banghead:

Bruce

Hi Bruce:
Everybody knows we should limit fat, salt, and caffeine, too. :biting:

We don't always do what we know is the better thing, especially if we're excited and working in a crowded space. :dont-know We do what's quick.

Once you spend the money you don't have, then you have the new system, and you have even more money that you don't have. :D


JBLnsince1959: It's been a long holiday weekend. When are we going to get your first in-depth listening report? Huh?
:bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
05-30-2005, 02:24 PM
I thought everybody knew you were supposed to lift the boxes off the components.

I do computer support where I work, and have to set up too many printers, monitors, etc. to not do it that way.


Bruce.... you're giving away our "computer Geek" secrets...careful :D





JBLnsince1959: It's been a long holiday weekend. When are we going to get your first in-depth listening report? Huh?
:bouncy:

Hi Dome:

went for a Mo. driving vacation, so i've been away and busy ( got to make the lady happy and just got back 30 minutes ago). Review maybe in a few days ;)

Audiobeer
05-30-2005, 02:27 PM
That's one of the reasons you were able to talk her into getting them......You got to keep your priorities straight! :D

Titanium Dome
05-30-2005, 02:37 PM
Good on you, mate! That's why I'm divorced, I suppose. All right then, there were other reasons, too, but it wasn't all my fault. :no:

Anyway, hope you two enjoyed your trip, and glad you're safely home. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
05-30-2005, 03:12 PM
That's one of the reasons you were able to talk her into getting them......You got to keep your priorities straight! :D

You bet!!! What would have happened if I had said, you know Honey-bun, since I just got these speakers, why don't we just cancel all our plans so I can spend all weekend listening to them. You can watch TV can't you? :biting: :no: :shock: :argue: :bash: :duel: :thnkfast:

Dome:

it really has been a busy weekend, small trips, friends, dinners out, people showing up from Texas :blah:

amadeo
05-31-2005, 05:29 AM
one of the coolest ......very nice i am sure you are in jbl heaven

is this like an all in one system .

i checked jbl site pta1800 (1500*4) 6000
ps1400 (1600*2) 3200
pc600 (1500*1) 1500

that would reach 10700.......impresive all in one system most impressive

titaniumdome tweeter....i can tell you and me are the youngest in this forum....no offence intended ...but all threads are like talking and discusing real old vintage speakers.... thats all and i know you have vintage speakers too ..but atleast you can hear the new technology in your home

JBLnsince1959
05-31-2005, 11:14 AM
Ok, lunch time, got a few minutes. I've only played these things about 20 hours or so and I would like to wait until after 30 to really write about them ( things have not gone as planned)

However, I will start the process on my "review". First thing I would like to address are the Titanium drivers. I think it was Giskard who said it best " they do not sound like they look, if they sounded like metal flapping in the wind, I'd say so". To look at them you would think that they would sound like metal, titanium, harsh, tinney, cold, lacking depth, too sharp, shrill, edgy, no soundstage, flat etc. Nothing could be further from that, they sound natural, full, musical.

"I can't believe it's not butter"

This is the first thing that strikes you about these puppies ( looks vs sound) and it really messes with your mind. They have the warmth and richness of cones. I can't look at the drivers ( grills off) while they are playing, it just messes with my head.


"A Tale of two Cities"
There are two basic extremes that come to play with stereo goodies. If something sounds "musical" then it lacks detail. If it has the details then it doesn't sound musical. However, the titanium drivers somehow find a very wonderful and ( IMHO) extremely rare balance - they are very revealing in detail BUT they also do it musically - very musically and they can take power and lots of it. And as the power is added they do not change their basic character. NO distortion, NO distortion...... just incredible sounding music...

I will write about comparing these to other speakers in other posts, but I will say this. I think it was Giskard again, in talking about the 250TI's in comparison to horns he said the 250's are more polite. So are these in comparison to horn based speakers. The point I'm making here is that I see the PS speakers as feminne and my 4430's ( or horn based speakers in general) as masculine.

"off to the movies"
have you ever seen a lady in a movie who looks like a librarian - hair up, glasses, clothes unflattering? you think to yourself, Ok, she's attractive, clean looking, BUT nothing you'll want to ask out on a date - after all she looks so plain, sterile, clinical, cold.... Only to see her later in the film and there she is at a party with her glasses off, hair down her back, in a long silky, clinging dress, with a low cut back, slit along one side up to her thigh and low cut in the front revealing a lot and you think..WOW...did I totally misjudge her,what an absolute babe and a half!! only the next part of the movie she's now dressed in black leather ( like the girl in the Matrix) jumping on a big old harley and driving off to save the world, driving at 100 miles an hour weaving between cars and shifting gears with grace and percision and then fights 100 men and beats them? Ok, you think..she's beautiful, sleek, polished and can can handle great power between her legs ( the harley, the harley now). WOW..

that's what comes to mind after listening to the performance series so far. WoW...did I misjudge these things by judging them by how they looked.

Botton-line.... wonderful sounding speakers, sound nothing like how they look.

as time goes on I'll discuss the soundstage, highs, mids, midbase and base along with comparisons to other speakers ( horn based, cone based, martin-logans etc)

Time to work.

amadeo
05-31-2005, 01:44 PM
i was just reading through this thread ...and i was flabergasted(dont know if the spelling is correct)....put a gun to my head and pull the trigger ...how can u do that ...poor speaker ...i hope u had it under anestisia when u disected your speaker the way u did ...i am telling u ...you either know what you are doing or you have cahoonas as steel ....

i am imagining pulling the guts of my ti6k ....ouch again the thought hurts ....( i actualy got up and kissed my vaders ....i bet between you and me we all did it at some point (kiss our speakers )...i alwayse do when i feel totaly in adoration for them witch is all the time ....they like it ...

try the following cds on your speakers ....

tatu 200 kmh in the wrong lane
maddona ...american life
dido
these are abit old but sound great on any system any mood your in youl have a big smile at the end of the day...

Titanium Dome
05-31-2005, 01:51 PM
one of the coolest ......very nice i am sure you are in jbl heaven

is this like an all in one system .

i checked jbl site pta1800 (1500*4) 6000
ps1400 (1600*2) 3200
pc600 (1500*1) 1500

that would reach 10700.......impresive all in one system most impressive

I've got a 7.1 set up, so there's six PT800 speakers and three PS1400s. Fortunately, I didn't pay full retail price.


titaniumdome tweeter....i can tell you and me are the youngest in this forum....no offence intended ...but all threads are like talking and discusing real old vintage speakers.... thats all and i know you have vintage speakers too ..but atleast you can hear the new technology in your home

Yes, I'm an advocate of advancing technology while still preserving the legacy of the past. There wouldn't be a Performance Series if not for the 250Ti or an L250 if not for the 4315. :bouncy:

Titanium Dome
05-31-2005, 01:55 PM
Dido is one of my favorites. Even though I'm an old guy, I'm all the way into dance, trance, electronica, and club mix. When I put the system into 7 Stereo and pump it up, the walls move in and out to the beat. :D I have to open a window to get more air into the room to keep it from imploding. (Okay, I'm kidding, a little.) :dj-party:

amadeo
05-31-2005, 02:06 PM
i was woundering why did you go with the performance series and not the gorgeous tik series since you have heard them and saw them in real life it is very hard to part ways ..what was your secret

i never heard the perf speakers but ...iam telling you my tik and i am not only saying this because i own them ..but i can hear every thing in any cd talk about being in the studio while the recording is taking place...in tatu i can easily hear the girls take a breath in between lines..i swear you wont believe me but i can hear the singers lips part and close (the sound in between a kiss)

i was woundering is your speaker as detailed as that ...i wish i could hear your speakers...id love to hear the differance

Titanium Dome
05-31-2005, 03:16 PM
The first thing was the driver complement.The PT800 contained three Titanium drivers that had a uniform sonic and aesthetic appeal to me. Once I heard the seamless way the drivers complemented each other, I was hooked. I liked the tweeter's use of the EOS WaveGuide, too and the IsoPower baffle was a key selling point. (I was also intrigued by the TiK's unique baffle design.)

As I noted elsewhere, the 4" Titanium inverted dome midrange is the key to the speaker's sonic quality, and the TiKs have this driver, too, so in that respect the sound is quite the same in the midrange.

The second thing was over all system flexibility. The Performance Series was much more flexible than the TiK series as far as placement, docking, wall mounting, buying single speakers, and so on.

The third thing was availability. Here in the US, TiK was hard to come by, and the TiK sub was not even available to us. Since I was looking at a complete HT set up, the sub was an integral part to me. The TiK sub is probably the best consumer sub JBL has, so it was disappoointing not to be able to get it.

Even though the Performance Series was also difficult to get, it was at least possible to get all parts of it, including the excellent sub.

JBLnsince1959
05-31-2005, 03:28 PM
The first thing was the driver complement.The PT800 contained three Titanium drivers that had a uniform sonic and aesthetic appeal to me. Once I heard the seamless way the drivers complemented each other, I was hooked.

Ain't it sweet? soooo nice :)

Audiobeer
05-31-2005, 07:49 PM
Save me a google search that may take hours........what do these puppies run ballpark? I know I'm being nosey! :p

johnaec
05-31-2005, 08:01 PM
Here they are, (bottom of page), direct from Harman - "remanufactured", (??), but with full warranty: http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

John

Titanium Dome
05-31-2005, 08:11 PM
Save me a google search that may take hours........what do these puppies run ballpark? I know I'm being nosey! :p

Harman refurbished prices: PC600-$1050; PT800-$1050; PS1400-$1119

From time to time online or on eBay, they've been $660-880, but few and far between at this price.

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 05:33 AM
The dealer I bought from in Ca. gave me a nice discount below the harmon page ( about $200 off for 800's and 250 for the 1400's).

these are very, very nice speakers for the money.

"From time to time online or on eBay, they've been $660-880, but few and far between at this price."

yes, very seldom at any price, can't count on them.

As I said in my reveiw earlier ( and I'll be listing more as I get the time). In comparsion to horn based systems these are "polite" so to speak ,so if you are a horn fan, these will take some getting use to. I'm still "getting use" to them. also, as I said earlier the 4430's are a hard act to follow. I guess you could say I'm "decompressing" from the compression horns.

at this point, I'm not sure which I like better. But then it's kind of like comparing a Hummer ( 4430's) to a finely tuned sports car. It's not that one is better than the other, just a diferent creature all together.

Of course a horn speaker gives you incredible dynamics that only they can do. Anytime you put a 15" woofer ( C-35's, L300, 4430's, 4435's etc.) and horn together you get something very special.

Zilch said it pretty good about the 4430's incomparsion to 4425's.....

"4430's have bigger, deeper bass, and the overall sound is more "transparent." 4425's, I'm aware there's speakers between me and the music. 4430's kinda "disappear," sonically speaking."

the 4430's do disappear and creates and amazingly hugh soundstage, with everything very 3D. there are times when listening to them I feel that I could reach out and touch the sounds as they floated by....

the PS speakers don't give me this feeling and some times I miss it very much ( to get close I have to turn up the volumn of the PS speakers). Don't get me wrong, the soundstage of the PS speakers is very, very good and imaging is very good. It's just when you have a 15" woofer to create the "foundation" and a compression horn with it's dynamics matched as the 4430's are, it's something special indeed.

Now, i'm not putting one speaker above the other. It's an unfair comparsion and of course the PS speakers do many things that the 4430's can't do.

of course at this point I'm STILL in love with horns and the 4430's in particular. I haven't "fallen in love" with the PS speakers yet, but over time I most likely will. I wish I could keep both, but I don't have the room.

got to go to work. I'll write more.

Titanium Dome
06-01-2005, 08:29 AM
As I said in my reveiw earlier ( and I'll be listing more as I get the time). In comparsion to horn based systems these are "polite" so to speak ,so if you are a horn fan, these will take some getting use to. I'm still "getting use" to them. also, as I said earlier the 4430's are a hard act to follow. I guess you could say I'm "decompressing" from the compression horns.

That's a good analogy and a play on words. Well done! :thmbsup:


at this point, I'm not sure which I like better. But then it's kind of like comparing a Hummer ( 4430's) to a finely tuned sports car. It's not that one is better than the other, just a diferent creature all together.

Decidedly different. I think you're being a bit dishonest with yourself: you obviously have a long, loving relationships with horns, and they are still your emotional first choice at this point. It's okay to be up front about it, and you do come clean later on. :yes:


Of course a horn speaker gives you incredible dynamics that only they can do. Anytime you put a 15" woofer ( C-35's, L300, 4430's, 4435's etc.) and horn together you get something very special.

My rewrite: Anytime you put a 15" woofer and horn together you get something very unique. :rotfl:


Zilch said it pretty good about the 4430's incomparsion to 4425's.....

"4430's have bigger, deeper bass, and the overall sound is more "transparent." 4425's, I'm aware there's speakers between me and the music. 4430's kinda "disappear," sonically speaking."

the 4430's do disappear and creates and amazingly hugh soundstage, with everything very 3D. there are times when listening to them I feel that I could reach out and touch the sounds as they floated by....

the PS speakers don't give me this feeling and some times I miss it very much ( to get close I have to turn up the volumn of the PS speakers). Don't get me wrong, the soundstage of the PS speakers is very, very good and imaging is very good. It's just when you have a 15" woofer to create the "foundation" and a compression horn with it's dynamics matched as the 4430's are, it's something special indeed.

This reminds me of a guy who guiltily goes on a first date with his new mistress and spends the evening talking about his wife. :rotfl:


Now, i'm not putting one speaker above the other. It's an unfair comparsion and of course the PS speakers do many things that the 4430's can't do.

of course at this point I'm STILL in love with horns and the 4430's in particular. I haven't "fallen in love" with the PS speakers yet, but over time I most likely will. I wish I could keep both, but I don't have the room.

got to go to work. I'll write more.

I've had a little fun with you about this, but it sounds like you do have a choice to make. You'll know in a week or two after you've decompressed some more.

I'm lucky enough to have space for a number of different set ups, and I still listen to the horn system I have, but it's no 4430. The horns seem brash and forward now, wheras before they seemed dynamic and broad. I think it's a matter of acclimation to a certain extent, just like the guys who got the first L250s because they were JBL's next great thing, then said, ":wtf: is this? I want my horns back!"

:idea: Question: Do you still have the 4430s in the room and if so are they still in the primary position? Asked another way: Are you limiting your ability to move the Performance Series around the room to find its optimum placement? When I got my old speakers out of the room, things improved, and when I moved mine another 12" out from the front wall, the difference was discernible and good.

I'm fascinated to see how this develops for you. Thanks for sharing it. :bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 10:40 AM
Decidedly different. I think you're being a bit dishonest with yourself: you obviously have a long, loving relationships with horns, and they are still your emotional first choice at this point. It's okay to be up front about it, and you do come clean later on. :yes:

:bouncy:

:rotfl:

yes, they are my "emotional first choice" and I fully admit it to myself ( and to the forum). That's another reason why I'm waiting to review. But I've also had non-horn speakers that I truely loved too, so I've been thru this before.




This reminds me of a guy who guiltily goes on a first date with his new mistress and spends the evening talking about his wife..



and just how would you know something like that :scold: :D . Seriously tho, I was trying to put things in a better prespective as far as my background and subjective bias


as far as speaker placement, The PS speakers have taken "Center Stage" otherwise I would have truely been dishonest with myself. I haven't gotten into testing out various positions within the room yet but will ( but that's fine tuning). they are about 17" from the wall toed inward just a little.

I also know that what one remembers is always subject to question also when we "love" something or someone we don't see it as it really is. What I plan to do is to "break them" in and listen to them and then put 4430'a and PS side by side and compare.

but really, they are totally different creatures.

right now ( today, my opinion could change tomorrow).

1. My emotional state is still with the 4430's and I'm bias, big time
2. I'm really enjoying the PS speakers and think they are wonderful. But, I haven't had that much time with them. You yourself had these next to your other speakers and went back and forth for a week comparing. I'm sure that once I play them side by side a lot of the subjective "in love" stuff will fade to some degree.

God, it's fun.. :D

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 11:47 AM
OK Dome:

time for you to come clean now ;) and face your own bias....

I spent over an hour writing a good first review about the PS and even using a good story about the girl... and did you respond??...Noooooooooooooooo, not a word.... nothing....silence.....

BUT!!!! let me say a few good things about the 4430's and boy you're all over me. come on now face it, you know ya did...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 12:54 PM
Hey Dome:

On a more serious note here. Have you used wires instead of the gold plated brassy things that come with the speakers to "dock" the 800's with the 1400's?

Just wondering if you have. I'm going to try it see what happens. Maybe you could guide me on that if you have. :)

Mr. Widget
06-01-2005, 01:43 PM
OK Dome:
time for you to come clean now ;) and face your own bias....
Dome is the Performance Series ambassador...

Widget

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 02:12 PM
Dome is the Performance Series ambassador...



yes, big time and I'm glad he is....( makes it so easy to tease) :D

Titanium Dome
06-01-2005, 03:22 PM
Dome is the Performance Series ambassador...

Widget

Thanks, I think.

By now I hoped someone from Harman or JBL would see me whoring myself like this and send me something, like some K2 S9800s. THEN I'd love horns again!

Titanium Dome
06-01-2005, 03:33 PM
Hey Dome:

On a more serious note here. Have you used wires instead of the gold plated brassy things that come with the speakers to "dock" the 800's with the 1400's?

Just wondering if you have. I'm going to try it see what happens. Maybe you could guide me on that if you have. :)


No, I haven't. With the speaker wire I use, it'd ruin the illusion of class. I've got 12G oxygen free, generic, clear plastic sheathed, braided cable from a local electronics mom & pop shop. Now, if I got some hoity-toity, overpriced Monster super teflon/carbon/silver/gold-plated sleeved cable in designer covers, then, well hell yeah!

Seriously, I think it's well worth trying, and I'm interested in your result. Those metal plates look good, but they don't always give the best connection.

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 03:39 PM
Thanks, I think.

By now I hoped someone from Harman or JBL would see me whoring myself !

Dome:

you've got to get away from those gang filled streets, they're having a bad influence on you. Please no more whoring... you're much better than that. :D

Titanium Dome
06-01-2005, 03:51 PM
OK Dome:

time for you to come clean now ;) and face your own bias....

I spent over an hour writing a good first review about the PS and even using a good story about the girl... and did you respond??...Noooooooooooooooo, not a word.... nothing....silence.....

BUT!!!! let me say a few good things about the 4430's and boy you're all over me. come on now face it, you know ya did...

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Biased? Me? :bs:

Okay, maybe a little.

Actually, I was waiting for the other shoe to fall in your review. You were very nice in your first impressions, and it made me feel giddy, like a girl in springtime. Yet my own first in-home impression was far less favorable. I thought I'd just wasted months of searching and a few thousand bucks.

If I wouldn't have had prior listening in Chicago and LA and also the J. Gordon Holt article from Ultimate AV, I'd have been suicidal. So I was thinking These can't be so much better that he's already forgotten his babies. I knew they'd be a lot different, but not necessarily better in your opinion. So, I waited...

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 04:02 PM
Dome:

it's interesting about these puppies...even today they seem to change. I left them on all day and just listen to "Dark Side of Moon" earlier and my mouth dropped.

also, from reading the review you told me about ( and what you wrote) I knew to just "wait it out". I'm sure some of this is me, BUT, I swear these speakers seem to open up more and more every day. I've never been one to buy the break in period of stereo stuff, but with these I can see it happening. damn...what a trip.

JBLnsince1959
06-01-2005, 04:19 PM
Actually, I was waiting for the other shoe to fall in your review. You were very nice in your first impressions, and it made me feel giddy, like a girl in springtime. Yet my own first in-home impression was far less favorable. I thought I'd just wasted months of searching and a few thousand bucks.

...

well, I had you as a guide to go by and I had already heard them open up so I thought I'll address the obvious about how they look VS the sound. They had opened up enough for me write about that. I must admit that the first day or two I was kicking myself for buying them. Tonight is the first time it really knocked my socks off so I'm going back and revisiting early CD's and yes, it's not all me, these things have opened up a lot today. :applaud:

Titanium Dome
06-01-2005, 09:38 PM
What makes it all the more interesting is the LE14H-3 is pretty much ready to go out of the box, while the Ti drivers with their rubber surrounds do need a bit of limbering up. So, while I think the LE14H-3 doesn't change its character, its sound seems to be changing a bit as the Ti drivers settle in.

JBLnsince1959
06-02-2005, 06:58 AM
What makes it all the more interesting is the LE14H-3 is pretty much ready to go out of the box, while the Ti drivers with their rubber surrounds do need a bit of limbering up. So, while I think the LE14H-3 doesn't change its character, its sound seems to be changing a bit as the Ti drivers settle in.

yes, the whole thing is amazing to watch really. I'm not sure what is changing, surrounds, titanium drivers, or all of the above but it's really nice what's happening.

the next week will be "balls to walls" business wise ( and posting so much the last week didn't help) so I may not be around as much.

well, got to go. we'll continue this later.

thanks Dome......

Titanium Dome
06-02-2005, 09:15 AM
If I had thought about this at the time, I could have used a calibrated mic and FuzzMeasure on my PowerBook to verify these anecdotal statements. At this time, it's already too late for you to keep a log of measurements, too, since the so-called break-in process is so far along.

Having said that, my impression is that the top and the bottom ends of these speakers don't change much. As noted earlier, I think the LE14H-3 requires little or no time to get up to speed. Additionally, I'd be surprised if the Ti EOS WaveGuide tweeter goes through any real transformation; we've had Ti tweeters for a long time, and I've never noticed any discernible break-in improvement. I have noticed degradation over time (a long time--decades), which is altogether different.

So where's the transformation taking place? My guess (remember, no stats to support this) is in the 904TI and 908TI drivers. The midrange and upper bass are the areas where "openness" and "presence" tend to be noticed, anyway, so if we're hearing changes that would be the place to listen.

The other possibility, as you noted, is the slow decompression of your own ears' listening habits and patterns. It's a well accepted doctrine that our ears and brain are fickle in regards to sound, and if we don't have constant reinforcement, we tend to migrate sonically to what sounded better last. That's one reason in store auditons are so treacherous.

A common scientific standard for persistence of sound in an ABX test is around 30 seconds. That's how long the average listener can hold on to a sonic signature before it begins to change. So, if it takes more than 30 seconds to go from A to B to X, the test isn't useful. That's one reason why such tests are a pain in the ass and why only a company like Harman International has the scratch to build a state of the art testing facility with rotating paltforms, instantaneous switching, trained and untrained listeners, etc.

It'll be exciting when you bring your babes (4430s) in and do your AB comparison. Will your hearing aesthetic be different enough that you'll think, "My gosh, those things are brash," or will the old aesthetic reassert itself so you'll think, "Dammit Dome, you almost had me believing in those thin, weak pussies. :banghead: The 4430, now THIS is music the way God, JBL, and California meant it to be!"? :applaud:

Cant' wait.

Robh3606
06-02-2005, 09:29 AM
"It'll be exciting when you bring your babes (4430s) in and do your AB comparison. Will your hearing aesthetic be different enough that you'll think, "My gosh, those things are brash," or will the old aesthetic reassert itself so you'll think, "Dammit Dome, you almost had me believing in those thin, weak pussies. :banghead: The 4430, now THIS is music the way God, JBL, and California meant it to be!"? :applaud:"


You may be in for a surprise. I had my XPL-200A clones up against my 4344's and it was a real ear opener. Those titanium drivers 093 and 096 did a very good job. I had more issues with the lower midrange and woofers where the XPL's are outclassed by the 2235 and 2122 in the 4344. They can't give you the same max SPL but what they do cover they do well. I would expect these to do even better. I am curious to see what you guys think. I have never tried the XPL's against my mains where I use 2344's. One thing for sure is the 4430 won't have the upper 10K-20K clarity and extension that your Performance series has. The 4344 has the 4430 beat in that area with the 2405 running the last octave.

Rob:)

mikebake
06-02-2005, 11:38 AM
You may be in for a surprise. I had my XPL-200A clones up against my 4344's and it was a real ear opener. Those titanium drivers 093 and 096 did a very good job. I had more issues with the lower midrange and woofers where the XPL's are outclassed by the 2235 and 2122 in the 4344.

Rob:)
That is why I think my forthcoming combo of PT800 on top of sub1500 will be good. Giskard is working on them now.
I also still have my 4430's and will post an AB comparison later, maybe midsummer.

JBLnsince1959
06-02-2005, 03:01 PM
That is why I think my forthcoming combo of PT800 on top of sub1500 will be good. Giskard is working on them now.
I also still have my 4430's and will post an AB comparison later, maybe midsummer.

what is he crossing over at .....130??? like the PS system?

JBLnsince1959
06-02-2005, 03:39 PM
you almost had me believing in those thin, weak pussies. :banghead: Cant' wait.

Gees..can't we just stop talking about Paris Hilton in these posts? :p

Titanium Dome
06-02-2005, 04:09 PM
That is why I think my forthcoming combo of PT800 on top of sub1500 will be good. Giskard is working on them now.
I also still have my 4430's and will post an AB comparison later, maybe midsummer.

Yeah, you're a lucky duck. If those sub1500s don't work out, let me know.

mikebake
06-02-2005, 07:33 PM
what is he crossing over at .....130??? like the PS system?

It's not "he" crossing over, it's me, as this will end up being a function of either an AV receiver or outboard crossover.....................when docked, the 1400 and 800 are at 130, but I'm suspecting the sub1500 combo will sound better lower than that. We'll see. That is one of those things that is easy for me to hear, fortunately.

mikebake
06-02-2005, 07:35 PM
Yeah, you're a lucky duck. If those sub1500s don't work out, let me know.
They have to work out as I am at the end of my audio/$ journey for awhile. Don't see where I'd need to work on improving it for awhile anyway. Just need to work on a better front end.

Titanium Dome
06-02-2005, 11:24 PM
They have to work out as I am at the end of my audio/$ journey for awhile. Don't see where I'd need to work on improving it for awhile anyway. Just need to work on a better front end.

You've got to think creatively. If you sell them to me, then you've got cash to keep the journey alive. :yes:

mikebake
06-03-2005, 05:21 AM
I couldn't sell them for what they are worth to try to replace. I'd still need bass modules and would spend more to get arguably less. These things weren't much money on PE, but try to find something comparable to replace them with............

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 05:35 AM
It's not "he" crossing over, it's me, as this will end up being a function of either an AV receiver or outboard crossover.....................when docked, the 1400 and 800 are at 130, but I'm suspecting the sub1500 combo will sound better lower than that. We'll see. That is one of those things that is easy for me to hear, fortunately.

10-4. I didn't know if Giskard was also creating a crossover for you.

amadeo
06-03-2005, 05:50 AM
Gees..can't we just stop talking about Paris Hilton in these posts? :p

ha ........see......... we could alwayse start talking about nicky hilton ..no ..how about pamela anderson....no how about beonce..no how about my tiks....i think they are sexier than all the above:bouncy:

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 06:46 AM
Dome:

There's something you should try here ( mikebake you can try this with Bob's also if you get time).

Now, i know it won't look classy( but that can taken care of later) and maybe even a little tacky looking ( and reguardless of how we tease each other Dome, you are a gentleman and a class act)

last night, I pulled out some 16gauge monster cable I've had sitting around and cut a piece and then replaced the gold-plated brass connectors between the 1400 and 800 with the wire. I only did one side first ( right side)

I then set the pre-amp to mono so I would get the same sound out both speakers ( using a MAC C40 pre-amp) and then A/B'ed them for a awhile by using the balance knob.

BIG DIFFERENCE, very big. Now this is with little control testing so there may some subjectiveness to it and I'm going to do futher testing, BUT.....
this is what I heard.

the first thing that strikes you is the side with the standard connectors ( let's call this side C for connector) is "Louder" than the wired side( and let's call this side W for wire). As I listened closer, I noticed that side C had more of a "glare" than side W that caused the mid-range to "stand out" and the mid-bass to "back-off". The glare seem to affect the entire soundstage also, as if that was the background upon which everything was presented and also made the soundstage sound more 2 dimensional. Side W seemed to have more "black" upon which the music seem to come from( I know, I'm using audiophile terms, but it's all I have) and the soundstage was more 3 dimensional.

I then used some 12gauge Monster with the typical results ( larger bloom, less articulate)

Uh-oh, got a thunderstrom coming in, so I'll to make this short if possible)

well, I'll write more later, but bottom-line is that I'm going to test this a lot more and it would be interesting to see if you other guys come to the same conculsion ( even if we use different terms for what we hear)

got to start working also........

Titanium Dome
06-03-2005, 10:09 AM
Gees..can't we just stop talking about Paris Hilton in these posts? :p


Hey, I didn't say, "Thin, HAIRLESS, and weak." :p

Titanium Dome
06-03-2005, 10:18 AM
Dome:

last night, I pulled out some 16gauge monster cable I've had sitting around and cut a piece and then replaced the gold-plated brass connectors between the 1400 and 800 with the wire. I only did one side first ( right side)

I then set the pre-amp to mono so I would get the same sound out both speakers ( using a MAC C40 pre-amp) and then A/B'ed them for a awhile by using the balance knob.

BIG DIFFERENCE, very big. Now this is with little control testing so there may some subjectiveness to it and I'm going to do futher testing, BUT.....
this is what I heard.



I then used some 12gauge Monster with the typical results ( larger bloom, less articulate)




Okay, I truncated your reponse, but I did read the whole thing.

I'm not at all suprised that this happened. Since the gold connectors are on the back of my L7s, I replaced them with wire some years ago and got a big improvement. Honestly, there were times when I just couldn't get a decent, consistent connection to both terminals with the strapping bars, so they had to go. Later I bi-amped and didn't need the connection at all.

The Performance Series stack seems to have much better design, but you're correct that it is not an ideal connection. It's more about design than performance. Now that you're forcing my hand (I HAVE to keep up.), I'll give it a go. If it works, as I'm sure it will, I'll have to buy some bad-ass looking wire to make it look cool again.

Can you be more specific about 16ga vs 12 ga?

amadeo
06-03-2005, 10:40 AM
Can you be more specific about 16ga vs 12 ga?

16ga is speaker wire yoused mainly in car audio and you can purchase them from any car audio store ...the reason i know this is i just brought some for my cherokee and jbl car amp.....

funny enough the 12 gauge is a slimmer speaker wire but i brought some costing me 5* that of the 16gauge

this is the kind i purchased ......i brought it from my jbl dealer......
http://www.monstercable.com/uk/productpage.asp?pin=1625

it has a seperate plastic wire in the middle for the bass signal very cool ...very expensive ...very nice

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 11:38 AM
Hey, I didn't say, "Thin, HAIRLESS, and weak." :p

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 11:54 AM
Okay, I truncated your reponse, but I did read the whole thing.

I'm not at all suprised that this happened. Since the gold connectors are on the back of my L7s, I replaced them with wire some years ago and got a big improvement. Honestly, there were times when I just couldn't get a decent, consistent connection to both terminals with the strapping bars, so they had to go. Later I bi-amped and didn't need the connection at all.

The Performance Series stack seems to have much better design, but you're correct that it is not an ideal connection. It's more about design than performance. Now that you're forcing my hand (I HAVE to keep up.), I'll give it a go. If it works, as I'm sure it will, I'll have to buy some bad-ass looking wire to make it look cool again.

Can you be more specific about 16ga vs 12 ga?

sure as time allows ( 16 vs 12)

Now, understand, that I just used what was lieing around ( or better put what was in one of my many boxes of stuff) and all I did was just hook it up bare wire. This was just a quickie test to see if I could hear anything. I'm going to dig much deeper into this. Most likely I will finally use some form of Kimber ( 8TC ?) and silver and create a braided Franken-cable thingy.

I'll touch base on the details later. for now try this. get a CD that has a lot of different sounds in all ranges[( mid-base, mid range) I used Eurythmics - greatest hits, Peter Gabriel - Shaking the Tree, and Vangelis] and turn the bases off and just listen deeply , then put one 16ga wire on and compare, then do both.

Bottom-line, one BIG.. FUCKING difference ( to me anyway). You milage may vary of course. and I have something to say about the reviewers also when I get time. By the way you mentioned a review that was NOT favorable - who was it and is it on the web ( tried to find your reference but couldn't)

Titanium Dome
06-03-2005, 03:20 PM
I can't believe this thread is now 300 posts long. I'll have to go back and see what I said. Even I can't find it easily. :(

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 03:41 PM
I can't believe this thread is now 300 posts long. I'll have to go back and see what I said. Even I can't find it easily. :(

I know, I don't think you said the name of the reviewer. Opps, ladies home and we have to get ready for her father. It's always something here.

got to go

JBLnsince1959
06-03-2005, 05:09 PM
Dome:

if your try this ( changing cables) try the 12ga ( very pure copper if you can - monsters good enough for testing purpose), I think you will hear the biggest difference with that. I cut mine 10" and then striped 3/4" off the ends. It's longer than it needs to be but the extra lenght helps when putting them on. Hook the bottoms first

DMMD
06-03-2005, 05:57 PM
monstercable...5* the price....and it has a seperate plastic wire in the middle for the bass signal very cool ...very expensive ...very nice

:blink: That explains everything. Horns RULE!

Titanium Dome
06-04-2005, 09:52 AM
:blink: That explains everything. Horns RULE!


Harr-r-r-r-rumpf! Not in this thread.

Remember, we're talking about natural, accurate sound, not what makes the most noise. :spin:

JBLnsince1959
06-04-2005, 10:24 AM
Hey Dome:

when are you going to cough up about $8 for 2 Ft of good 12ga pure copper cables to test this out. Can't wait to hear what your results are. :D

JBLnsince1959
06-04-2005, 10:51 AM
:band: Well, just put "Darkside of the Moon" first time I've heard it since switching cables and all I can say is :banana: :banana: :banana: :dancin: :dancin: :rockon1: :rockon1::rockon2: :dj-party:

Titanium Dome
06-04-2005, 11:03 AM
Hey Dome:

when are you going to cough up about $8 for 2 Ft of good 12ga pure copper cables to test this out. Can't wait to hear what your results are. :D


I'm going on a recon and possible rescue and recovery mission for a few forum members today. Maybe I'll try it when I get back. I've got lots of wire in the garage.

Earl K
06-04-2005, 11:24 AM
I'm going on a recon and possible rescue and recovery mission for a few forum members today.

- Gee, I just love some of these early 60s' movies..... :D

- Now, is this mission going to be a 007 tart-em-up classic :cool: or Guns of Navarone thriller ? :die:

:p EarlK

PS - ( I too would like to know if you hear what "JBLnsince1959" hears with this wire vs plate changeout thing )

JBLnsince1959
06-04-2005, 01:50 PM
- Gee, I just love some of these early 60s' movies..... :D

- Now, is this mission going to be a 007 tart-em-up classic :cool: or Guns of Navarone thriller ? :die:

:p EarlK

PS - ( I too would like to know if you hear what "JBLnsince1959" hears with this wire vs plate changeout thing )

Good one, I was thinking the same thing. ( movie)

Of course if he heard the exact same thing I'll be surprise ( different room, amp, wires etc). all I can say is I hear a big difference and I like it. Even if he heards a difference he may not like it as he's listen to them so long the change may be uncomfortable. I haven't really done a lot of A/B tests as I've just enjoyed listening to them really for the first time, so I'm just soaking the music right now.

I'm not a real fan of large monster cable as it smears the the sound ( or any large speaker wire) -I personally like the Kimber stuff [8tc] myself for large wire and PSS silver wire - together sometimes), BUT even the large monster shit is so much better than those posts. I'm not sure what they are made of ( most likely NOT brass), most likely Al. or some alloy.

I'm now making the Kimber 8TC's really as I write....

Bottom-line for me is that I'm hearing the speakers like well..speakers, everything is more balanced and enjoyable. which of course is my reality. :D

Titanium Dome
06-04-2005, 08:53 PM
Okay, my mission is over, and it was a success. Tonight I'll make a couple of short cables and put them on the Performance Series stacks tomorrow.

Titanium Dome
06-05-2005, 06:28 AM
All right, the "jumper" cables are done. I've got pairs of zip cord, Home Depot 14ga speaker wire, and no-name 12ga oxygen-free, braided audio cable.

Will check it out today, also doing some work with AudioTest and the AS1000 Differential/Comparator. That way I'll check if I can "see" any difference as well as hear it.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 07:39 AM
All right, the "jumper" cables are done. I've got pairs of zip cord, Home Depot 14ga speaker wire, and no-name 12ga oxygen-free, braided audio cable.

Will check it out today, also doing some work with AudioTest and the AS1000 Differential/Comparator. That way I'll check if I can "see" any difference as well as hear it.

Dome:

"sounds good" to me.

If you have it some try some 16 and 18ga wire. here's why....

It has been my experience that when dealing with basic wire ( standard two strand and not talking about complicated geometries), the thicker the wire the more the individual sounds will become larger and "rounded"( or bloom if you will, some would say "richer") and usually will sound more mid-bass "friendly ( and bass also - sounds "Fuller") , BUT, it will lose more articulation as the wire is thicker. This lost of articulation has been decribed by some as a smearing of the sound.

By articulation , I mean how sharply and distinctly the individual notes and sounds are presented ( tansients). Usually the smaller the wire the more Articulate the sound, or the more distinct the sounds are. On the subjective side this is experienced ( for me anyway) as the individual sounds are "smaller" and more "pin-pricky" and there is more "space" between the sounds.

While I only did about 15 minutes of comparisons ( not much as all) and not under "good" conditions I came to the following conculsions ( quicky I might add)

the standard posts that JBL provided were more Mid-range and highs "friendly" and less Mid-bass( less fullness). There also seemed to a mid-range and highs Glare ( In your face - like a bad horn), BUT the articulation was very, very good. As I first tried one side with a standard 16ga monster cable the sound seem to relax more with more mid-bass fullness and more "space" between the individual sounds with pretty good articualtion, less, but still good. When I tried the 12ga. the midbass really opened up and became "Full" but at a lost of articulation. I left the 12ga on all day yesterday as it was ( to me) so much better than the standard posts. I have since made some connectors using Kimber 8TC to bring back the lost articulation.

personally, I've not used 14ga so I can't say how much a difference between to the 14ga and 12ga there will be as far as articulation ( but you may not be worried about that)

also, the source's could make a difference. Right now I'm using a Mac 7008 CD, Mac C-40 pre-amp and a MC-402 amp. I haven't hooked up to my other sources ( aragon and marantz), but the basic differences should be there no matter what.

It will be interesting to "hear" what you experience both subjectively and measure.

let us know.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 07:44 AM
Oh, forgot to say....the main cables to the speakers...I'm using Kimber 8TC Plus PSS Silver.

Titanium Dome
06-05-2005, 07:44 AM
The zip cord is 16ga.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 07:47 AM
The zip cord is 16ga.

Sounds like good test material :D altho I'm sure it's not the purest of copper.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 08:03 AM
Oh, forgot to say....the main cables to the speakers...I'm using Kimber 8TC Plus PSS Silver.

let me say this more clearly....the cables from the amp to the main speaker binding post on the woofer is Kimber 8TC Plus PSS Silver

MJC
06-05-2005, 08:07 AM
It's not "he" crossing over, it's me, as this will end up being a function of either an AV receiver or outboard crossover.....................when docked, the 1400 and 800 are at 130, but I'm suspecting the sub1500 combo will sound better lower than that. We'll see. That is one of those things that is easy for me to hear, fortunately.

I haven't had the plessure of hearing the PS to date, none in Nevada to be found, but the 130 xover, I would think, is way too high.

The original L212 xover to the B212 was at 70, and I am currently using 60 xover between the L212s and the sub1500s(using a HK635 receiver). Except on the 3 channels that are set to 'large', being they have 12" subs connected to them and then have the xovers at 40 between the 12" subs and the 1500s.
At 80 xover you can still get localization of subs.

I've never understood the 130 xover thing. Although, the HK635 likes to set the LFE @ 120.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 09:09 AM
I haven't had the plessure of hearing the PS to date, none in Nevada to be found, but the 130 xover, I would think, is way too high.

The original L212 xover to the B212 was at 70, and I am currently using 60 xover between the L212s and the sub1500s(using a HK635 receiver). Except on the 3 channels that are set to 'large', being they have 12" subs connected to them and then have the xovers at 40 between the 12" subs and the 1500s.
At 80 xover you can still get localization of subs.

I've never understood the 130 xover thing. Although, the HK635 likes to set the LFE @ 120.

I don't understand it either. I had hoped that Giskard had talked to GT about it since GT had a hand in both designs. I quess we will just have to trust GT's judgement on this

Mr. Widget
06-05-2005, 09:11 AM
Since they are physically stacked closely together they will perform more like woofers, so I doubt the relatively high crossover frequency is a problem. I am sure JBL choose that frequency because they thought it necessary to protect the (Think California's Governator here) "the girlie 8" titanium woofers".

Widget

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 09:19 AM
Since they are physically stacked closely together they will perform more like woofers, so I doubt the relatively high crossover frequency is a problem. I am sure JBL choose that frequency because they thought it necessary to protect the (Think California's Governator here) "the girlie 8" titanium woofers".

Widget

that's a good idea, I hadn't thought of that.

all I know for sure is that they really sound wonderful and it works great. The mid-bass and mid-range detail is phenomenal and the way the drivers "seam" together is equally wonderful. Now that I've replaced the standard posts I'm really loving these things more and more.

MJC
06-05-2005, 09:24 AM
I don't understand it either. I had hoped that Giskard had talked to GT about it since GT had a hand in both designs. I quess we will just have to trust GT's judgement on this

Then again, any of the newer sub xovers can be bypassed. I really like the HK635 eq, sub filters, if only the xover was in increaments of 10htz instead of 20.
And I've never set the 1500s where the L/R L212s are and set the L212s on top. Maybe I should try it. The main problem would be that the 1500 boxes are 8" taller than the L212 bases.

MJC
06-05-2005, 09:33 AM
Since they are physically stacked closely together they will perform more like woofers, so I doubt the relatively high crossover frequency is a problem. I am sure JBL choose that frequency because they thought it necessary to protect the (Think California's Governator here) "the girlie 8" titanium woofers".

Widget

Maybe the "girlie 8" aren't as robust as the 112A/H are. Being the 112A's voice coil and magnet were actually designed for a 12" woofer.
I have my center, and side surrounds setup much like the PS, having the B212s right below the SS(which are hanging on the walls). And a PB12 right beside the center L212. The 1500s are in the front corners.

Mr. Widget
06-05-2005, 09:47 AM
Maybe the "girlie 8" aren't as robust as the 112A/H are.

I am sure they are not...

I don't think they have the slam of the 112A/H either, but I bet they are more revealing of detail.... got to pick your battles.

Widget

MJC
06-05-2005, 10:04 AM
I am sure they are not...

I don't think they have the slam of the 112A/H either, but I bet they are more revealing of detail.... got to pick your battles.

Widget

I'm sure the 8", as is the entire PS, is superb. But I have yet to find a JBL Sythesis dealer that has a showroom with the PS on display.
Unfortunately, the days when all lines of JBL systems were sold in quality 'hifi shops' has long passed. Its been almost 20 years since I saw a pair of 250Ti in the local Circuit City. Not that CC would be considered quality. But what passes for JBL in Worst Buy these days, to say nothing of WB itself, leaves something to be desired. Except the BBs that have a Magnolia HT corner in them.

JBLnsince1959
06-05-2005, 11:37 AM
Just put in an old favorite - Ellington at NewPort and found it well - very lacking. Of course this is not the best recording; live, in 1956; but the music more than makes up for any technical workings. I found the bass player in the background very weak and Paul Gonsalves' Sax interval In "Diminendo and Crescendo in Blue", well I don't know how to explain it. But then maybe I'm jaded too. After some 46 years of hearing this on the C-35's ( and this is the type of music it was made for) with it's bigger than life sound, it was disappointing. I missed the growl and sassiness and emotion of the instructments. Again in "Diminendo and Crescendo in Blue" there's a point where the crowd starts to go wild and it was only barely there in terms of emotional impact. Over time i'm going to check out a few other Jazz artist,; Stan Kenton, Count Basie, Dizzy Gillespie and without a doubt Don Ellis, plus many more.... we'll see how "newer" recordings sound.

Thank God I still have those old beast ( C-35's) for just this recording

Titanium Dome
06-05-2005, 11:43 AM
... what passes for JBL in Worst Buy these days, to say nothing of WB itself, leaves something to be desired. Except the BBs that have a Magnolia HT corner in them.

In nearby Torrance, CA there's a Magnolia on Pacific Coast Highway, then about 2 miles west on PCH is a BB with a Magnolia corner in it. When I took the PT800s (two) into the Magnolia to pit them against the Sonus Faber Cremona and the MartinLogan Ascent, the resulting chaos ended in a discussion of BB intending to carry some higher JBL stuff in the Magnolia section of their stores. The floor manager was adamant that there had been some training material about the Performance Series and the sales guy claimed to recognize the PT800s when I brought them in the door.

I thought there might be some truth to this, as Magnolia associates would have the same access to JBL that regular BB folks do, at least since the acquisition.

Anyway, I sucked in my pride and visited BB to check out the Magnolia corner, and no one there knew a thing about the Performance Series, or anything else for tht matter. They seemed like typical BB hacks in nicer shirts.

johnaec
06-05-2005, 01:37 PM
When I took the PT800s (two) into the Magnolia to pit them against the Sonus Faber Cremona and the MartinLogan Ascent, the resulting chaos ended in a discussion of BB intending to carry some higher JBL stuff in the Magnolia section of their stores.Have you described this encounter in an earlier thread? Chaos? How did this go - how did the PT800's stack up? (No LF units?)

John

Titanium Dome
06-05-2005, 02:46 PM
Have you described this encounter in an earlier thread? Chaos? How did this go - how did the PT800's stack up? (No LF units?)

John


I'll see if I can find that guy's business card. The story's no good without the associate's name. I just remember that the name was apropos.

mikebake
06-05-2005, 02:48 PM
Since they are physically stacked closely together they will perform more like woofers, so I doubt the relatively high crossover frequency is a problem. I am sure JBL choose that frequency because they thought it necessary to protect the (Think California's Governator here) "the girlie 8" titanium woofers".

Widget
Not acccording to the manual. It is a performance issue when docked and using the internal crossover. Otherwise they are crossed at 80.

JBLnsince1959
06-06-2005, 12:08 PM
I have both the 908Ti and the 112/2108. Pretty much everything about the 908Ti is technically better. No, it is not built to the same brickhouse specs as the 112/2108. Side by side comparison? I won't be selling my 112/2108's. They're simply too powerful to let go of. I might be willing to sell my pair of 908Ti's. I haven't decided yet. They are possibly just too cool to let go of.

80 Hz. I don't really know quite how to put this without opening up a can of worms. I'll just say that the 908Ti can be used like the 112/2108 was - sealed box - run full range if desired.

The 130 Hz crossover point is the best choice for the stacked array as designed. Nothing spooky or secret about it. Use whatever crossover frequency you find works best for you in your environment and your configuration. It's that simple. For instance, I doubt 130 Hz would be best for something like PT800's wall mounted away from the PS1400 subs.

Thanks for the info. :D

Titanium Dome
06-06-2005, 03:51 PM
I'm not ready to say much at this point in the Great Wire Swapping Experiment (GWSE) of 2005, other than this:

Changing the connector bars on the stacked PT800s to speaker wire resulted in an obvious sound shift. The stacked PT800s now sound more like the four other, non-stacked PT800s and the PC600.

Not only is this evident from a subjective standpoint, but a simple sound test using pink noise demonstrates a shift on the AS1000 comparator/analyzer.

Even though I had the connectors securely attached and the nuts turned very tight, obviously the connection or the conductor (or both) wasn't the best. It sure looked better than those wires, though.

This GWSE is causing another kind of disturbance in the house, however, so I'm going to have to slow it down a bit. Why can't I find a woman who thinks playing tone bursts repeatedly and spreading equipment all over the place while crawling around changing wires is great fun? :dont-know

DMMD
06-06-2005, 04:29 PM
This GWSE is causing another kind of disturbance in the house, however, so I'm going to have to slow it down a bit. Why can't I find a woman who thinks playing tone bursts repeatedly and spreading equipment all over the place while crawling around changing wires is great fun? :dont-know


How many forum members have we lost when something was inadvertantly dropped on their heads while buried "under there" or lodged "behind there."

Don't become another statistic. :blink:

JBLnsince1959
06-06-2005, 04:54 PM
I'm not ready to say much at this point in the Great Wire Swapping Experiment (GWSE) of 2005, other than this:

Changing the connector bars on the stacked PT800s to speaker wire resulted in an obvious sound shift. The stacked PT800s now sound more like the four other, non-stacked PT800s and the PC600.


exactly as it should!!! yes, yes....



Not only is this evident from a subjective standpoint, but a simple sound test using pink noise demonstrates a shift on the AS1000 comparator/analyzer.


Good, then I'm not deaf :D , how did it shift? need details please... ;)




Even though I had the connectors securely attached and the nuts turned very tight, obviously the connection or the conductor (or both) wasn't the best. It sure looked better than those wires, though.


I'm not catching your drift here please forgive me, what are you saying exactly????? Again, need details...





This GWSE is causing another kind of disturbance in the house, however, so I'm going to have to slow it down a bit. Why can't I find a woman who thinks playing tone bursts repeatedly and spreading equipment all over the place while crawling around changing wires is great fun? :dont-know

Well... I get this drift - BIG TIME......By the way, that type of woman does not exist....not much you can do except to say..."I really like doing this even if you don't understand." " Say, it's been a long time since you had dinner with your friends, why don't you go out and have a Girls night out. I'll pay"

or someting equally bribing... :applaud:

anyway, really good work. I'm not sure exactly where you are on a few points, but time will take care of that.

and then there's the subjective thing if you like it or not ( there's no right or wrong). I personally find the wires ( tho ugly) a much more musical sound. I'm still trying stuff.

One reason I almost didn't buy these is that I'm a firm believer in the more you put between the amp and cone the more the signal is changed ( for the worst). Normally, there is only one set of binding posts ( the ones on the speakers) before the signal reaches the cone. In the 800 there's three. In my testing the most influential "change" to the signal ( not counting crossovers ) are the binding posts because the signal has to "jump" from one metal to another( connector gels work pretty good but haven't used it yet on these). It would also be an interesting test to compare a pt800 docked ( and sub off) with a pt800 surround.

I tried using my active crossover but I didn't like the sound. 24db octave crossovers ( and particularly active ones) produce a "harder" sound ( OK, for PA stuff or outdoors) and that's exactly what I don't want with the PT800, too much thinness and hardness. I haven't tried a 12db crossover ( much better for music IMHO) I'll have to dig one up.

well, time for dinner.

thanks for the testing Dome :applaud: . I would like more details when you have the time.

JBLnsince1959
06-06-2005, 06:43 PM
This GWSE is causing another kind of disturbance in the house, however, so I'm going to have to slow it down a bit :dont-know

:hmm: hmmmmmm....... I sense a distrubance in the force ..... Let go Dome....trust your feelings... trust the force.... :p

JBLnsince1959
06-06-2005, 07:54 PM
.

Even though I had the connectors securely attached and the nuts turned very tight, obviously the connection or the conductor (or both) wasn't the best. It sure looked better than those wires, though.



Ok, I think I've got what you're implying. Yeah, the connections are tight and I doubt if the connection itself caused much of the problem. . I looked at it and it's like a tight spade ( and spades are fairly good connectors) so my gut feeling with this is, it's the metal content of the connector itself that causing most of this. It's most likely both but I'll bet 95% or better is the connector. Every metal, alloy, size, and geometric shape will affect the signal in some way. Too much to discuss right now.

However, I agree with you.....more investigation is needed.

take care

JBLnsince1959
06-08-2005, 03:12 PM
Ok, I made an error since I got the PS series. A few nights before I got them I hooked up some silver interconnects from the CD to the preamp. Now, silver interconnects are Ok, but they knock out a lot of bass, midbass and lower mid-range information. I had used them to test something and then forgot they were hooked up.

Bottomline, I remembered this last night and used some Kimber copper interconnects instead. WOW, it's all there now, the full funamentials, the rich lower harmonics in the midbass and midrange. Wonderful sound........ with the correct interconnects and by replacing the JBL connectors between the 1400 and 800 and using wire, the sound has opened up and is rich sounding not "thin" at all anymore. I'm in heaven. GREAT sound - finally.... tried Ellington at NewPort again.. It's all there so clear yet so full....

Ok, now I'm firing on ALL 8 cylinders... time to test and see what these babies can really do....

:scoot: :scoot: :scoot: :rockon1: :band: :dj-party:

MJC
06-08-2005, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Giskard
I have both the 908Ti and the 112/2108. Pretty much everything about the 908Ti is technically better. No, it is not built to the same brickhouse specs as the 112/2108. Side by side comparison? I won't be selling my 112/2108's. They're simply too powerful to let go of. I might be willing to sell my pair of 908Ti's. I haven't decided yet. They are possibly just too cool to let go of.

80 Hz. I don't really know quite how to put this without opening up a can of worms. I'll just say that the 908Ti can be used like the 112/2108 was - sealed box - run full range if desired.

The 130 Hz crossover point is the best choice for the stacked array as designed. Nothing spooky or secret about it. Use whatever crossover frequency you find works best for you in your environment and your configuration. It's that simple. For instance, I doubt 130 Hz would be best for something like PT800's wall mounted away from the PS1400 subs.



What are you considering full range? 40htz or 20 htz. And what will a 112A actually play down to?
I ask only because my HK635 sets the xover to 40htz when the speaker setting is set to "large". Thus in my setup, the 3 channels that I have 12" subs connected to the L212s, as the system was designed, are set to "large" and crosses to the main subs @ 40htz.

MJC
06-08-2005, 05:07 PM
In nearby Torrance, CA there's a Magnolia on Pacific Coast Highway, then about 2 miles west on PCH is a BB with a Magnolia corner in it. When I took the PT800s (two) into the Magnolia to pit them against the Sonus Faber Cremona and the MartinLogan Ascent, the resulting chaos ended in a discussion of BB intending to carry some higher JBL stuff in the Magnolia section of their stores. The floor manager was adamant that there had been some training material about the Performance Series and the sales guy claimed to recognize the PT800s when I brought them in the door.

I thought there might be some truth to this, as Magnolia associates would have the same access to JBL that regular BB folks do, at least since the acquisition.

Anyway, I sucked in my pride and visited BB to check out the Magnolia corner, and no one there knew a thing about the Performance Series, or anything else for tht matter. They seemed like typical BB hacks in nicer shirts.

I don't know what the dealer situation is like in CA, but the comments I've gotten from dealers(besides BB) around here, Reno and Carson City, is that they don't want anything to do with JBL or Harman, in general. There is a dealer in CC where I bought my HDTV, that sold Infinity Speakers a few years ago, along with M&K. And now just M&K. I told him "I wouldn't take M&K for free" and he told me "I won't ever sell any Harman product again".
But I'd like to see the PS in Magnolia, being BB is going to put a Mag in the local BB, in addition to the one that is already in Reno.

Thirty year ago JBLs were never sold at a discount, unless you bought the store's floor models, as my first L212 were.
Then JBLs started showing up in places like Circuit City, Monkey Wards, Sears and finally, in BB. And you know those big chains can sell for less than an independent HT store can. So the dealers say "screw you JBL, you'll just undercut me with some place else".

4313B
06-08-2005, 08:57 PM
What are you considering full range? 40htz or 20 htz. And what will a 112A actually play down to?
I ask only because my HK635 sets the xover to 40htz when the speaker setting is set to "large". Thus in my setup, the 3 channels that I have 12" subs connected to the L212s, as the system was designed, are set to "large" and crosses to the main subs @ 40htzFull range in this instance is no passive or active high pass filter, just the attenuation of the sealed box. The acoustical crossover of the L212 was something like 70 Hz with both transducers electrically down by something like 9 dB at that point. I've run that low for a sub before. I don't think 40 Hz is too low.

the comments I've gotten from dealers(besides BB) around here, Reno and Carson City, is that they don't want anything to do with JBL or Harman, in general.Yeah... I've heard that alot...

MJC
06-09-2005, 07:01 PM
Yeah... I've heard that alot...

When JBL has systems like the PS and the K2 its really a shame that they have cut their own throats with their dealers, former or present.
But like I said in another post, I would really like to see the Magnolia corner of BB to start carrying the PS. If for no other reason than to show the general public how good JBL really is.

I just realized the under your screen name it sez "former member"?

johnaec
06-09-2005, 07:14 PM
I would really like to see the Magnolia corner of BB to start carrying the PS. If for no other reason than to show the general public how good JBL really is.Up here in NorCal there's a big Magnolia's store that isn't in a Best Buy - it's a huge store all to itself. They could really use some JBL's...

John

MJC
06-09-2005, 07:28 PM
Up here in NorCal there's a big Magnolia's store that isn't in a Best Buy - it's a huge store all to itself. They could really use some JBL's...

John

In the Reno Mag corner they have a room that has VA Beethoveen speakers, and despite I don't REALLY need any more speakers, I almost pulled out my credit card to buy them.
Should would like to see either the PS or the K2 in the same room to do a side-by-side comparasion.

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 12:52 PM
Friday I visted the Magnolia corner at the Torrance BB and was sorely disappointed.

:bs:

Essentially there were three show rooms, a center room/cashier desk, and a lame foyer. The emphasis was on plasma/lcd TVs, mid-fi components, and mid- to low-fi speakers.

One room was virtually all video displays, one was displays and small speakers, and one was a single display with the so-called full-size speakers. Some of the prices were ridiculous for what was offered.

I felt that the JBL Performance Series would be a great value compared to most of the product there, and it would definitely kick the ass :moon: of everything in there. In fact, I'm not sure how they could sell any of the other gear (except maybe the MartinLogan electrostats they had) in a comparison of sound. Of course we know many people buy on looks first, sound second. Some of the other speakers are pretty.

The LE14H-3 is a better LF transducer than anything else in the Mag corner, including the 10" and 12" subs they sell, and the only thing close to the Ti HF is the electrostatic ML.

All in all, it was a very dispappointing visit and shows what BB will do to the Magnolia image by this insertion into BB stores. :bomb:

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 01:21 PM
I'll see if I can find that guy's business card. The story's no good without the associate's name. I just remember that the name was apropos.

I loaded two PT800s, wrapped in soft moving pads, in the trunk of the Maserati (yes, to look like I was all that :dancin: ) and drove over to the full-size Magnolia on PCH in Torrance. With one carefully tucked and camo'ed under each arm, I went inside and looked for the nearest "sales advisor." Up comes Skip, who recognized me from visits to audition the Sonus Faber Cremonas and MartinLogan Ascents, which he had gamely put through their paces for me.

I asked, based on prior visits, if we could do side-by-side comparisons of the JBL Performance PT800s, the SFs and the MLs. He seemed less eager than before. Had to talk to the manager. Just a minute. This might not be a good time. Should have called first. Some of the equipment wasn't set up. :blah:

So, out comes the manager. I want to do what? Highly unusual. No one has ever requested this before. Where did I get the speakers? Magnolia is not a testing lab. It's unfair to bring in an outside speaker that they haven't set up and "calibrated" prior to an audition. :blah: :blah:

Since no other customers are in the store (it's early afternoon on a week day), other sales advisors drift over like gang members defending their turf. JBL? Really? You're serious? ANYthing in the store will beat a JBL speaker. Waste of time, really. :blah: :blah: :blah:

(cont'd)

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 01:38 PM
That last comment put me over the edge. Lousy MF prick I thought.

I turned to Skip. "Skip", I queried, "Are you gong to keep your word or not? What kind of a man is it...what kind of a store is it that brags about its products standing up to anything you want to throw at it then makes all kinds of excuses about doing it when the opportunity arises? What kind of a man...what kind of a store says Sure, bring over anything you want to compare then chickens out at the opportunity to prove its claims?"

I continued. "Skip, what kind of a professional insults a customer and insults a product without ever having seen let alone heard the product the customer brought in for comparison. Skip, are you saying I'm stupid? Skip, are you saying I have poor taste? Skip, are you saying I don't deserve the opportunity to get a fair comparison? Skip, are you saying I should not spend my money here, now or ever?"

"I came here prepared to spend $10k or more, but I guess you guys don't need it. Skip, you're willing to let this pack of hyenas drive your customer out of the store? Okay, well then, cool; let's SKIP the whole damn thing." :die:

(There might be one or two swear words omitted from the above recollection. This is a dramatization of a real event. :p )

(cont'd)

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 01:49 PM
All right, LSS, I didn't leave and the comparision happened. FYI, since I already bought the JBLs, the liklihood of me buying $10k of speakers was real close to 0, but I needed to know what I had and if I needed to look for a buyer so I could get the Cremonas or Ascents.

We got some stands and put the PT800s on them next to the Cremonas. When the PT800s came out of their drapes, the reactions was a mild one, sorta like Hmm. Odd shape. Black. Hmm. When the grilles came off it was sorta like :wtf: What kind of drivers are those? Is that metal? You're kidding me.

After a little argument about LF reproduction, we agreed that all speakers would be crossed over at 80 HZ to a sub via the processor, the alternative being that I'd go home and get a PS1400. No one, including me, wanted that. :no:

The manager told one sales advisor to stand outside. "Don't let anyone come in." We closed the door and began.

(cont'd)

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 02:33 PM
Everything was set up flat through analog stereo bypass.

The music used in this order:

Bach Violin Concert in G Minor/Zuckerman (RCA Red Seal 24/96 DDD recording)

Ascent/Also Sprach Zarathustra/Kunzel (Telarc Digital DDD)

Immigrant/Sade (Epic ADD)

Toy Chest/Flim & the BBs (dmp DDD)

Definition of Beautiful/Koz (Capitol ADD)

Time/Pink Floyd (EMI ADD 1992 digital remaster)

The Cremonas were very satisfying on strings. Musical, vibrant, a little sweet. ("Built like a musical instrument with fine wood," offered Skip.) But on brass and woodwinds, they lagged a bit: thin, no bite, no air.

Sade's vocals were not as earthy and full as I expected. Very clear, however. The basic rock instruments were very good. The upper bass was underrepresented, seeming to almost vanish at times.

Toy Chest was not pleasing on the Cremona. Thin, tizzy, imprecise percussive effects. This was not a good experience. The Cremonas seemed lost, confused. Then Dave Koz's sax was not as full-bodied as I expected, either, though his song played far better than Flim & the BBs. It sounded like a jazz number played in a big church.

The Pink Floyd number was very good, except percussive effects seemed to be weak again. It seems the tweeter just isn't up to the job, or at least not to my personal expectation. The male voices were very good. It seemed like they were right there.

(cont'd)

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 02:51 PM
The Ascents were a nice improvement on the Cremonas, and as expected quite a different sound. Generally they were more open, transparent, detailed, and precise. Having said all that, they weren't as dynamic as I like and they tended to run out of steam; i.e., they don't get real loud.

The symphonic material was very pleasing. While the strings were slightly less satisfying than on the Cremonas, everything else was worlds better. Yet, the lack of dynamism (IMO) led me to feel some excitement was missing. Hard to explain, but I didn't get that groin-tingling feeling that I like so much. Nevertheless, the Telarc disc was stunning in its upper range.

Sade's vocals still sounded less earthy/seductive/sensuous than I wanted. The vocal was exceptional; it just wasn't how I remembered hearing her in person. The instruments were very clear and distinct.

Flim & the BBs sounded great. All the myriad percussion was precise, well placed, distinct, natural sounding, virtually perfect. Yet with all this near perfection, for the first time the Ascent midrange sounded a bit uninspiring. Perhaps it was the recording? We'll see if the PT800 can make it live.

Koz's work was super. Everything sounded top notch. His sax was a sax; Xavier's vocal was smokey; the bass and drums were punchy. Now let's turn it up...oh sorry, lost it. (Skip advises, "Audiophiles prefer moderate sound levels.") :rolleyes:

Pink Floyd was also super. Great percussive effects. Sparkling guitar. Punchy upper bass. Vocals very good, but surprisingly not as good as the Cremonas.

(cont'd)

JBLnsince1959
06-26-2005, 02:53 PM
Ok now we need more info, we're waiting and waiting.... :applaud: ;)

JBLnsince1959
06-26-2005, 02:55 PM
Oh, yes, I have a question, did the sales people hear everything the way you did ( or did they Bullsh*t you)?

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 03:26 PM
Okay, so what gives? The PT800s sound different in this darned show room. Will they hold up? We finish the set up. (Did I mention each set gets the Radio Shack SPL meter set up first so the levels are comparable to start and I know the relative locations on the volume control?)

On the symphonic stuff, they sound good. Damn good. Perhaps not as sweet on the strings as the Cremonas, but I take that as a positive. Overall they have far, far more "air" than the Cremonas or the Ascents and the soundstage is much better around the room. Broader, more stable. Is this due to the IsoPower baffle? I don't know. It just is. The dynamics are clearly superior. I can see Skip glance at the manager not once or twice, but three times at least. I try to keep the sh!t-eating grin off my face. Even if we don't win, we shocked 'em. Sombody says, "That sounds pretty good." I can't write what I was thinking in response.

For all its deficits, this is a better room than I have at home. The 24/96 recording sound so much better. I close my eyes...I am "there."

The Telarc disc in particular is a butt-kicking revelation. I can crank these things to a level the Ascents can only dream of. Who's your audiophile-daddy now, Skip? Somebody slips: "Those are clean."

I've heard the Sade track too many times at home to be fair about this, but it sounds perfect. She's next to me, sultrily singing in the room, breathing in my ear, moving her hips to the grinding agony of the bass and drums, I can smell her sweat, feel her heat...wait a minute, too much groin-tingling!! Move on.

Toy Chest is almost sound for sound just like the Ascent, but response is a hair less bright at the very top. And overall the sound is just more dynamic, complete, and spatial, which is important in this piece. I get a more imminent feeling, more presence in the mids, which makes the toys themselves seem closer and more believable.

Time, the Floyd tune, is the best of both worlds, Cremona and Ascent. Great percussive effects, sparkling guitar (the double-tracking is much clearer), punchy upper bass, and immediate, stunning vocal presence. The brief female vocal is penetrating, haunting. The low pitched clock gong in the left channel is unbelievably realistic, right down to the vibration of the spring.

Even though everyone has heard the song three times, no one speaks when it's over, until I say, "Well, Skip, wha'd'ya think?"

(cont'd)

Titanium Dome
06-26-2005, 03:44 PM
No one wants to talk. Skip is looking at something. The wall? A far off paradise? His vanishing sale?

I add, "OK guys, now be honest. Tell me what you think. Here's my rating: 1) JBL, 2) MartinLogan, 3) Sonus Faber, with 1 and 2 quite close, but 3 is out of the race."

"Skip?"

"Manager (forgot his name)?"

No reponse. Then one of the hyenas says, "Say, doesn't Best Buy carry JBL?" Yes, yes, yes, yes and yes, all around the room. :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: and :yes:

"Maybe we could carry these."

"Yeah, I'd like to have some in one of the rooms."

"Do you think we could get a set?" and :blah: :blah: off they go, ignoring me.

So, it's me and Skip. He looks around, then, quietly, "I think you got the right speaker." Then louder, "Do you need some help taking these out." I smile, say, "Maybe you could just get the door," and out I go. "See you," I say. "Not any time soon," he smiles.

So there you have it. Remember this is a dramatization recreated from a memory that gets better every time I think about it. ;) However, my actual observations were written down on paper in the room as I heard the speakers, so that remains pretty stable. Remember also that prior to acquiring the Performance Series I had heard the Cremonas and Ascents more times than the Performance Series, so it was a bit unnerving to go back to hear them with the PT800s in tow.

This has been provided for your personal entertainment and no scientific claims are being made. Have fun. :D

JBLnsince1959
06-26-2005, 04:27 PM
Thanks for the memories..... ;)

Now, let's get back to the future ( today),

1.what did you decide on the cable VS JBL connectors
2. have you tried different cables?
3. did you hook up Zilch's special wires?

Need info...we're burning daylight here :D

JBLnsince1959
06-28-2005, 04:34 PM
Okay, so what gives? The PT800s sound different in this darned show room.
(cont'd)

From my small amount of experience with them I understand that one and I'm sure that it's not just the room. I'm sure that since they weren't connect to the 1400 using the JBL connectors and hooked up to speaker wires instead there would be a ( big) difference.

One thing I've learned about these speakers is how uncolored or sensitive to the incomming signal they are. Now by being sensitive, I'm NOT talking about sensitivity ( 93DB SPL, 1 watt 1 meter) but how sensitive they are to producing whatever signal they are given.

Opps, just told it's time to eat and then I have to run an errand ( yes dear, whatever you say) :D

I'll continue this later.........

JBLnsince1959
06-30-2005, 02:27 PM
Well, got a little time on my hands ( I'm taking a break as today is a special day for me - shameless plug). Let's see now where was I..:hmm: hmmmmmmmm...

Oh, yes...uncolored or sensitive....These are the most sensitive speakers to the signal I have heard. It is so easy to hear the difference in wires and interconnects( and amps and preamps). I thought the 4430's were the best but these PS speakers beat'em in that reguard. ( and no I haven't fallen out of love with my 4430's). Before I would have to listen, relisten, relisten and listen again, again, again... but these only take a few A/B's and I've got it.

I realized this when I replaced the JBL connectors with some 16gauge wire..immediate difference, so i've been experimenting wire different wires, interconects etc. At first I has some pure Silver Sounds interconnects from the CD to the preamp and the bass, midbass and midrange sucked BIG TIME, thin..just thin. of course it didn't help that the PS speakers need time to "break-in". Then I replace the PSS with some cheap Kimber copper interconnects - Much better, midbass and full midrange, but still not "there". I had some top of line Monster interconnects and even better as far as fullness but not as much detail ( the never ending story)

Opps, phones ringing and I have to back to work. I'll finish part I swear.......

Mr. Widget
06-30-2005, 04:19 PM
Well, got a little time on my hands ( I'm taking a break as today is a special day for me - shameless plug).

:rotfl: Happy Birthday!:rotfl:


Widget

mikebake
06-30-2005, 07:40 PM
Just got my PT800's/600 back from the artist formerly known as Giskard today; time to start the 4430/PS series compar-o. Actually, I'm not that big on the A/B comparison, with such relatively disparate designs, but, WTF. We'll see. 4430's have "that" sound, but they will be up against a more modern 4 way with sub1500 bottoms...........................certainly they can't compete................Okay, there IS that groovy matching of dispersions at crossover point, that big 15 inch sound, and that biradial sex appeal.......................( I don't admit to being biradial, but it does double my chance of a date on Friday nights..............)
Actually, if I get it set up right, I gotta predict the 4 way combo smashes the 2 way, due to,among other things, the superior sub1500 bottom, the newer Ti drivers, and the HF extension. There IS something about Mary, however..........

Titanium Dome
06-30-2005, 10:18 PM
Just put your nose between the cheeks, breathe deeply, and pucker up... :spin:

Titanium Dome
06-30-2005, 10:19 PM
Oh yeah, want to hear your comparo too. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
07-01-2005, 07:23 AM
Thanks Widget :D

Mike, I'll be interested in reading what you have to say about the PS speakers. Let us know what crossover you're using etc. I tried to run them BI when I first got them, using my ashly crossover and I wasn't impressed, not sure what was wrong, but the bass really when down and the midbass & up was very thin and mechcanical. I'll have to try again.

I haven't been able to compare them to my 4430's, I'm rewiring them so I can sell them to another member, so they're in "pieces" right now ( and have been for awhile - been too busy to complete)

Let us know what you think. also, how's Bob doing with his speakers...haven't heard from him for awhile.

mikebake
07-01-2005, 08:05 AM
It'll be awhile; big backyard party weekend. 200 guests, big tent, live band on stage, chicken BBQ, beer trailer, big fireworks show a block away, then Star Wars episode one on the outdoor movie screen. Then, decompress.

JBLnsince1959
07-01-2005, 08:18 AM
It'll be awhile; big backyard party weekend. 200 guests, big tent, live band on stage, chicken BBQ, beer trailer, big fireworks show a block away, then Star Wars episode one on the outdoor movie screen. Then, decompress.

excuses, excuses, excuses... now Mike, you're really going to have to learn how to set priorities here :rotfl:

Seriously tho, I know what you mean. Once you get a chance to "decompress" please let us know. I'm going to try and have my 4430's ready for a A/B test this weekend.

Wish I could come for the party instead tho. Say, if you talk to Giskard, tell him I said hi and wish him well.

mikebake
07-01-2005, 09:17 AM
It'll be awhile; big backyard party weekend. 200 guests, big tent, live band on stage, chicken BBQ, beer trailer, big fireworks show a block away, then Star Wars episode one on the outdoor movie screen. Then, decompress.

OH YEAH, and the best part; my son just got home on leave from the Marines in Afghanistan. He was up in the mtns. along the Pakistani border, clashing with the Taliban.

JBLnsince1959
07-01-2005, 09:35 AM
OH YEAH, and the best part; my son just got home on leave from the Marines in Afghanistan. He was up in the mtns. along the Pakistani border, clashing with the Taliban.

:applaud: :applaud: :applaud:

Thank God he's OK and can be with you. We're pulling for him..

DavidF
07-01-2005, 11:37 AM
OH YEAH, and the best part; my son just got home on leave from the Marines in Afghanistan. He was up in the mtns. along the Pakistani border, clashing with the Taliban.

My thanks to him for carrying such a personal responsibility and risk.

David F

Zilch
07-01-2005, 12:09 PM
I wanna BBQ beer trailer.

Yup, yup. http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/bouncy.gif

[Hiyas to Giskard when you see him.... http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/smile.gif ]

JBLnsince1959
07-01-2005, 12:28 PM
It'll be awhile; big backyard party weekend. 200 guests, big tent, live band on stage, chicken BBQ, beer trailer, big fireworks show a block away, then Star Wars episode one on the outdoor movie screen. Then, decompress.

Pictures! pictures.....We want Pictures of this event!!!

mikebake
07-01-2005, 12:56 PM
Pictures! pictures.....We want Pictures of this event!!!
I'll work to snap some. And I'll tell Giskard ya'll said howdy.

Titanium Dome
07-01-2005, 03:54 PM
OH YEAH, and the best part; my son just got home on leave from the Marines in Afghanistan. He was up in the mtns. along the Pakistani border, clashing with the Taliban.

Having your son home and safe from that region is the best news! Getting your Performance gear in house with the 1500s is pretty good news, too.

Say hello to the G man. Tell him I'm still available to drop bowling balls on Bose cubes when I'm in Toldeo July 7-10.

JBLnsince1959
07-01-2005, 04:01 PM
Say hello to the G man. Tell him I'm still available to drop bowling balls on Bose cubes when I'm in Toldeo July 7-10.

Dome are you driving or flying to toldeo?

Titanium Dome
07-01-2005, 04:13 PM
Flying to Chicago. Driving (w/ daughter and grandson) to Toledo.

mikebake
07-06-2005, 01:12 PM
Pictures! pictures.....We want Pictures of this event!!!
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5607&page=2&highlight=backyard

Here ya go!

JBLnsince1959
07-07-2005, 12:40 PM
Here ya go!

Mike thanks for the pics. Looks like you had a great time and that is really an impressive setup. I've got to stop by the next time we go to maryland. I've been busy so not much time for the forum. Got to go

rick

MJC
07-22-2005, 05:10 PM
With respect to Ti Dome's experience at Magnolia with his PS I decided to send an email to Magnolia's corperate headquarters around 3~4 weeks ago.

In the email I told them I had checked out their speaker selection in their Reno store. But if they wanted my business, they would need to carry the PS.

To date, they have not responded.

JBLnsince1959
07-22-2005, 08:13 PM
To date, they have not responded.

Don't hold your breath while you wait..... :D

MJC
07-23-2005, 11:36 AM
Don't hold your breath while you wait..... :D

I'm not that's for sure. And they're still available from the Harman online store, but at a higher price than what Ti Dome and others paid.
But my 7 L212s are still kicking ass, so in no hurry.

Titanium Dome
07-25-2005, 08:33 AM
I'm not that's for sure. And they're still available from the Harman online store, but at a higher price than what Ti Dome and others paid.
But my 7 L212s are still kicking ass, so in no hurry.

Do you know anyone who has a job at Best Buy? Oh wait, that's sort of an oxymoron, isn't it? :blink:

Anyway, do you know someone who gets a regular paycheck from Best Buy? A former employee told me he was able to order Performance Series speakers through Best Buy's employee program with JBL and that he got them for very attractive prices.

Lancer
07-25-2005, 09:30 AM
Anyway, do you know someone who gets a regular paycheck from Best Buy? A former employee told me he was able to order Performance Series speakers through Best Buy's employee program with JBL and that he got them for very attractive prices.

Harman actually reads this specific thread. They are interested in everything everyone has to say about the Performance Series.

That's a problem with forums. One or two people get on and rave about what great deals they got and everyone else expects the same deals...

An employee caught buying items at employee discount for anyone other than themselves would probably be terminated.

Mr. Widget
07-25-2005, 09:39 AM
An employee caught buying items at employee discount for anyone other than themselves would probably be terminated.

It sounded to me like the fellow bought those wonderful speakers for his own use... I am sure Mr. Dome was not suggesting anything untoward.

Widget

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 09:45 AM
Even at regular retail prices, the performance series is a super freakin bargain....absolutely amazing speakers.... :applaud:

Lancer
07-25-2005, 09:49 AM
It sounded to me like the fellow bought those wonderful speakers for his own use... I am sure Mr. Dome was not suggesting anything untoward.

WidgetYou're kidding right? :rotfl:

Anyway, do you know someone who gets a regular paycheck from Best Buy?

Maybe the implication is for MJC to get a job at Best Buy? ;)

Mr. Widget
07-25-2005, 09:56 AM
Do they have benefits in addition to being able to buying the performance series at a discount? :applaud:


Widget

Lancer
07-25-2005, 10:00 AM
Do they have benefits in addition to being able to buying the performance series at a discount? :applaud:


WidgetGive an inch, take a mile. As if being able to buy the Performance Series at a discount isn't enough! You employees!

You'll have to go to www.bestbuy.com (http://www.bestbuy.com/) and click on Careers for more information.

Zilch
07-25-2005, 10:01 AM
Is it like a pension where you gotta be "vested" before you can buy stuff?

I don't think I'd last long enough wearing my hearing protectors at work.

Can we say "cacophony" here?

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 10:03 AM
If some one is really interested, there's a dealer that a few of us got our performance series from in Ca. Two people bought their remaining stock and demo units at very, very good prices and I bought new stuff at a higher price but still attractive compared to retail or Harmans' site. They may still want to do this and it's on the up and up.

Of course the whole point to the PS speakers is how good they are. Even Harmans prices are a bargain for what you get.

I agree with Dome that if JbL really made an effort to market these they would fly out the window. That and replace the connector brackets with something else ( IMHO)

Lancer
07-25-2005, 10:04 AM
Is it like a pension where you gotta be "vested" before you can buy stuff?Dunno! You might have to call Harman and ask them how long one has to be an employee to get a discount. :p

Lancer
07-25-2005, 10:06 AM
I agree with Dome that if JbL really made an effort to market these they would fly out the window.Rumor is they've come back from the dead and are going to be sold at Tweeter stores. Could be just a rumor though...

Of course the whole point to the PS speakers is how good they are. Even Harmans prices are a bargain for what you get.True. Certainly a better bargain than anything I can think of off hand in the legacy/obsolete department. MSRP seemed a bit steep but the Harman site price was decent.

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 10:34 AM
MSRP seemed a bit steep but the Harman site price was decent.

yeah, $6000 for just stereo and $10,000 for surround is a lot for most people( me included), BUT, compared to other "new" speakers they were'nt too bad price wise. I've heard alot of other speakers that were more expensive and they didn't come close to sounding as good as the PS.

Titanium Dome
07-25-2005, 12:27 PM
Harman actually reads this specific thread. They are interested in everything everyone has to say about the Performance Series.

This does not surprise me, and I often curb my enthusiasm as a result. Since my old brain is riddled with memory gaps, did I ever actually quote the price I paid? Hmmm? :dont-know

OTOH, I think I should get part of someone's salary at Harman, like the person who's repsonsilbe for marketing these beauties. :rotfl:


That's a problem with forums. One or two people get on and rave about what great deals they got and everyone else expects the same deals...

I worked very hard to find a place where I could legitimately buy them, and yes, I was nearly raving by the time I was done. :nutz: The great sound did in fact push me completely into rave mode, but in a good way. :p


An employee caught buying items at employee discount for anyone other than themselves would probably be terminated.

I would hope this is so. It would be so in my company. Yet, one has to wonder at a marketing strategy that makes a highly desirable product nearly impossible to purchase. In that vein, one should not be surprised if the urge to locate and purchase said product results in unusual approaches to the purchase dilemma, and it is the nature of a free market society that one would seek the lowest price possible.

The deals at harmanaudio.com are quite good, IMO, and I have consistently referred people to that site first.

In this case my intent was to supply another point of information for those in the hunt. The clear implication was to ask a Best Buy employee whom you knew if the Performance Series could in fact be bought through Best Buy's employee purchase program. (And also to rag BB a bit, I'll admit.) After that, it's up to the individual to decide to qualify for the employee program or not, but it is a potential, legitimate avenue of purchase. I'm assuming BB has safeguards in place to prevent unauthorized purchasing.

I want it to be clear I never suggested
a) That it was a fact that one could get Performance Series products through Best Buys' employee program;
b) That BB was a source of gray market JBL purchases; or
c) That anyone should work at BB. :spchless:

Now, everyone put the safety on. :die:

Titanium Dome
07-25-2005, 12:38 PM
... replace the connector brackets with something else ( IMHO)

Got the special wires today, and will set them up this weekend. Very interesting, especially in light of Zilch's premium cable. Thank you!

I swear I'll get a report on the cable configurations before the end of summer.

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 02:43 PM
Got the special wires today, and will set them up this weekend. Very interesting, especially in light of Zilch's premium cable. Thank you!

I swear I'll get a report on the cable configurations before the end of summer.

Glad you got the wires. I'd also, like to know more about Zilch's super wires. You can PM me if this a state secret and I'll keep my mouth shut. :D I'll Pm you some info I've gleamed when I get the time.

Don't worry about the report, I've been up to my eyeballs in work for the last 6 weeks( last 4 were really bad) so I've not had much time. I have a lot in my mind to write but little time. Today is the first day with some freedom to write.

Oh yes, when you go to do the wires, be sure to hook the bottoms first...makes it easier. Also, right now I'm just using the wires with no connectors of any kind ( bare wire)

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 02:46 PM
This does not surprise me, and I often curb my enthusiasm as a result. Since my old brain is riddled with memory gaps, did I ever actually quote the price I paid? Hmmm? :dont-know

OTOH, I think I should get part of someone's salary at Harman, like the person who's repsonsilbe for marketing these beauties. :rotfl:



I worked very hard to find a place where I could legitimately buy them, and yes, I was nearly raving by the time I was done. :nutz: The great sound did in fact push me completely into rave mode, but in a good way. :p



I would hope this is so. It would be so in my company. Yet, one has to wonder at a marketing strategy that makes a highly desirable product nearly impossible to purchase. In that vein, one should not be surprised if the urge to locate and purchase said product results in unusual approaches to the purchase dilemma, and it is the nature of a free market society that one would seek the lowest price possible.

The deals at harmanaudio.com are quite good, IMO, and I have consistently referred people to that site first.

In this case my intent was to supply another point of information for those in the hunt. The clear implication was to ask a Best Buy employee whom you knew if the Performance Series could in fact be bought through Best Buy's employee purchase program. (And also to rag BB a bit, I'll admit.) After that, it's up to the individual to decide to qualify for the employee program or not, but it is a potential, legitimate avenue of purchase. I'm assuming BB has safeguards in place to prevent unauthorized purchasing.

I want it to be clear I never suggested
a) That it was a fact that one could get Performance Series products through Best Buys' employee program;
b) That BB was a source of gray market JBL purchases; or
c) That anyone should work at BB. :spchless:

Now, everyone put the safety on. :die:

that was a very good and wordy C.Y.A. ( cover your ass) :D

Titanium Dome
07-25-2005, 02:48 PM
that was a very good and wordy C.Y.A. ( cover your ass) :D

I have a mighty big ass. :p It's bigger than my (figurative) mouth.

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 02:57 PM
I have a mighty big ass. :p

All those Hot Dogs???????? :D ;)

louped garouv
07-25-2005, 03:01 PM
UP HIS....... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

















































mouth

JBLnsince1959
07-25-2005, 04:25 PM
OK...... time to switch gears here. Well I've been listening to the performance series for about 2 months WITHOUT listening to my 4430's at all. The reason is that I started to rewire the 4430's for the member who is going to buy them and then got pulled away because of business, so they were sitting around in pieces for about a month and half.

Finished rewiring the 4430's last evening (Thanks Zilch - I had lost my notes and needed help) and then had a chance to listen and compare for a little. I didn't have much time to A/B them.

I have grown to really like the performance series and dare I say I have grown to love the sound. Really they are that good with everything I have tried them with, but it took awhile to get use to them. However, I have been very busy also so not as much time for them as I would want.

So last night as I was connecting wires to the 4430's I was wondering how they would sound after listening to the PS for so long.. Would I still love the sound or would the horns just "get in way", how would the mid-range and mid-bass be.. etc....would the PS speakers spoil me ?....

Well, first up Pink Floyds' Dark Side of the Moon.....

WOW....DAMN,..those 4430's really shine, so smooth, detailed...powerful..I was in love all over again.. the more I listened the more I was hearing...yes..it's all there and the soundstage is so...so..HUGH...everyhting is so 3D, solid if you will.....

My heart sunk as I started to think about the fact that this Thursday the new owner is coming to get them....DAMN..did I make a mistake here?..What was I thinking? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: ...GOD I love the sound!....Jesus Christ what have I done? I can't beleive I'm selling these puppies..I looked for 2 years to find really good ones..drove to Utah to get them... and the sound...the sound....

Put on some more CD's ( more floyd - the wall - Annie Lennex), OH F**K, this is my all time BooBoo if there ever was one. Went outside to smoke a cigarette and I was kicking myself mentally. :biting: :biting:

Went back and listened closely and then switched back to the performance series.... Really sounds great also..no I didn't make a mistake after all buying the performance series.

The 4430's and performance series do have different characteristics but each in their own right are truely wonderful speakers. The 4430's take nothing away from the PS and the PS take nothing away from 4430's. I love them both equally.. I really couldn't say one is better than the other

what surprised me is how well the 4430's stand up to the performance series. Both speakers are just amazing. I have two more nights to do A/B

PS

I really wish I hadn't sold the 4430's, of course I don't have room at the time for everything so something had to go. Even if they were just stored away for a rainy day like I've done with so many other speakers.....I plan on doing a thread about selling the 4430's and have pictures of me and the buyer....

Titanium Dome
07-25-2005, 10:36 PM
I'm fortunate in that I haven't had to make the decision you made--at least as far as selling one set of speakers to make room for another. If I miss the SVA1800s, I can go listen to them. If I miss the L7s, L5s and (now) L3, I move to another room. The L100s are down the hall. Other JBLs in other rooms.

They're all different and wonderful. I keep telling myself I should sell some of them, but... :o:

As I wrote quite some time ago, my greatest moments of remorse were buyer's remorse for the first day or so after I bought them. Once they loosened up, they were still so different in hard to define ways. Yet, if faced with your dilemma, I'd choose them over all the others. In fact if I could keep either the Performance Series OR all my other JBLs, the others'd be out the door so fast I'd get whiplash.

And this from a guy who just bought another L7 last week to have driver and crossover protection should anything ever happen to one of his precious babies.

Maybe I'm just sick. I think you're a lot healthier than I am. :screwy:

JBLnsince1959
07-26-2005, 03:32 PM
I'm fortunate in that I haven't had to make the decision you made--at least as far as selling one set of speakers to make room for another. If I miss the SVA1800s, I can go listen to them. If I miss the L7s, L5s and (now) L3, I move to another room. The L100s are down the hall. Other JBLs in other rooms.

They're all different and wonderful. I keep telling myself I should sell some of them, but... :o:

As I wrote quite some time ago, my greatest moments of remorse were buyer's remorse for the first day or so after I bought them. Once they loosened up, they were still so different in hard to define ways. Yet, if faced with your dilemma, I'd choose them over all the others. In fact if I could keep either the Performance Series OR all my other JBLs, the others'd be out the door so fast I'd get whiplash.

And this from a guy who just bought another L7 last week to have driver and crossover protection should anything ever happen to one of his precious babies.

Maybe I'm just sick. I think you're a lot healthier than I am. :screwy:

Well I don't know about healthier,but I know I don't have room AND I spent $5000 more than I planned on this year( only stereo stuff too - I have a yearly buget I try to stay in and by May I had blown it), soooooo no room AND it'd be nice to get a little money back. I'll be selling other stuff too.

But you know I've been thru this so many times before. Except for my Dad's C35's and some custom made subs I've sold all my speakers over the years and I go thru this every time.....L100's, 4311's( stolen), 65's, 300's, 220's and my very first speakers I bought used in High school - lancer 66's and that's just some of the list up to 1980. So many speakers...

Not much time tonight as I have a dinner/play to go to. However, I got a little time to A/B the PS and 4430's last night. I'll do it more tomorrow night and then post....

However.....It looks like I'm becoming a hardcore Dome-Head too :D

Lancer
07-26-2005, 03:51 PM
I've sold all my speakers over the years and I go thru this every time.....Me too... fortunately I've always been somewhat placated by the replacement models.

However.....It looks like I'm becoming a hardcore Dome-Head too :DIt's pretty tough to beat the PT800/PS1400 stacks.

I have to admit I don't miss the 2235H's from my 4430's. 25 years of solid use from 136A's, 2231A's, 136H's, 2231H's and 2235H's was sure damn fun but it had to end sometime. :wave: I'm still undecided about hanging on to the 2344A's and 2425H's. I might aquaplas the 2425H diaphragms and try them with LE14H's in two cubic footers before finally letting them go.

mikebake
07-27-2005, 08:33 AM
I have to admit I don't miss the 2235H's from my 4430's.

Still, pretty durn decent midrange from the 2235, and I have never been a fan of 15's run that high in a home system. Still haven't hooked the PT800's back up yet, coming soon, though. In spite of my earlier threats, I am still planning on keeping the 4430's, so I don't have to go through the agony above.
(plus that whole Eargle provenance thing ;) )

Mr. Widget
07-27-2005, 10:22 AM
I have never seen the Performance Series in person and certainly haven't heard them, but I would expect that they will produce a more "audiophile" experience than the 4430s. I enjoy that sort of thing... but occasionally I like to really stress the foundation of my house.

I would expect that the 4430 will kick the Performance Series' butts for those brief blasts of high SPL listening that is fun from time to time. Of course, the 4350 will even top them... for way over the top Maximum Volume stuff I have never heard anything better. Since 98% of my listening isn't an attempt to reduce my body into a quivering mass of neurons I think I would go with the Performance Series or something similar if only one system were allowed.


Widget

mikebake
07-27-2005, 10:36 AM
"I have never seen the Performance Series in person and certainly haven't heard them, but I would expect that they will produce a more "audiophile" experience than the 4430s."
As per Giskard "they don't sound like they look' i.e. they aren't overly audiophile polite.

" I enjoy that sort of thing... but occasionally I like to really stress the foundation of my house."
I don't see 4430's doing that that well, frankly. I don't like them real loud, either. Additionally, though, I am used to big horn loaded PA rigs, so the 4430 isn't too impressive in comparison.

"I would expect that the 4430 will kick the Performance Series' butts for those brief blasts of high SPL listening that is fun from time to time."
Ehhhhh, not really. Not really. And I'm not talking about when paired with sub1500's either.

" Of course, the 4350 will even top them... for way over the top Maximum Volume stuff I have never heard anything better."
I like listening to my fave CD's on big outdoor concert rigs while FOH is getting dialed in.........................that's nicely over the top, too.

Anyway, I am happy that the 4430's in my shop sound better a lower volumes. I used to have to crank other systems a little to get life in them, but the 4430's sound full at modest levels, thankfully. That is one of my favorite aspects of them.

Mr. Widget
07-27-2005, 10:51 AM
As per Giskard "they don't sound like they look' i.e. they aren't overly audiophile polite.
I took that to mean that they look rather Studio Series i.e. Best Buy JBL.... I certainly don't equate "audiophile" with overly polite... I think of it more in terms of holographic imaging, revealing of detail, low distortion, and tonal accuracy. Unfortunately it is frequently at the cost of dynamic presentation.



" I enjoy that sort of thing... but occasionally I like to really stress the foundation of my house."
I don't see 4430's doing that that well, frankly. I don't like them real loud, either. Additionally, though, I am used to big horn loaded PA rigs, so the 4430 isn't too impressive in comparison.
Hard for those 1" drivers to get real loud without getting a bit harsh... I agree that the 2" drivers are a significant step up in that department.

Big outdoor PA rigs... sure! I was thinking in terms of my living room. There is no way that you can get the visceral rush in your living room that dozens of 18" woofers and 50KWatts outdoors can deliver.:D

Widget

Lancer
07-27-2005, 11:06 AM
Still haven't hooked the PT800's back up yet, coming soon, though.Ok. I need to talk to you via PM about some issues once you get hooked up.
In spite of my earlier threats, I am still planning on keeping the 4430's, so I don't have to go through the agony above.
(plus that whole Eargle provenance thing ;) )
That's cool. You should probably give them a few years at least.
I would expect that the 4430 will kick the Performance Series' butts for those brief blasts of high SPL listening that is fun from time to time.I didn't think so. I rather liked dumping a ton of juice into the Performance Series and noticing the lack of power compression and intermodulation distortion... :p

Anyway, I am happy that the 4430's in my shop sound better a lower volumes. I used to have to crank other systems a little to get life in them, but the 4430's sound full at modest levels, thankfully. That is one of my favorite aspects of them.Mine as well. Very good resolution at lower volume levels.

Hard for those 1" drivers to get real loud without getting a bit harsh... I agree that the 2" drivers are a significant step up in that department.Absolutely. The 1" CD was a limitation of the 4430 and 4435 when driven hard.


Anyway, I know all the pros and cons of both systems so I will leave Mike and others who own both to post their comments. My comments could be viewed as unfair.

In any case, I really like both systems and I think it's pretty cool that JBL still has what it takes today.

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2005, 12:44 PM
As per Giskard "they don't sound like they look'

I took that to mean that they look rather Studio Series i.e. Best Buy JBL.... I certainly don't equate "audiophile" with overly polite... I think of it more in terms of holographic imaging, revealing of detail, low distortion, and tonal accuracy. Unfortunately it is frequently at the cost of dynamic presentation.

Widget

I took what he said differently. When you look at them without the grills on and stare the tit-domes, your mind thinks that they will sound metalic, hard etc....and of course they don't, just the opposite, they sound smoooooth, musical and lush ( with the correct stuff hookedup). In fact I can't listen to them without the grills on, it just messes with my mind.
How can something like looks like THAT, sound like THAT????.....

Also, let me say a few things here ( IMHO of course). These speakers are like nothing you have ever heard..period. Throw away all your experiences with other speakers, all perconceived notions, beliefs and expectations ( and I don't care if your experiences are with Cones, horns, electrostatic, ribbons, ti-series or what not), and be prepared to enter into something totally unexpected......they defy explaination.....which is why I think it took awhile for me to get use them..I had to throw away everying I have learned and heard before. but I'll try to address a few issues ( and myths) that just came up.

(surprise #1)
"I would expect that the 4430 will kick the Performance Series' butts for those brief blasts of high SPL listening that is fun from time to time."

Not all - they will do it... and with such an ease that your mouth will drop AND they do not distort!!! yes, they don't have the MID-BASS punch ( as only a 15"er will do), but pure SPL..no problem. I'm afraid to go to high with them ( for me..not the speakers)

(surprise #2)
I took that to mean that they look rather Studio Series i.e. Best Buy JBL..

Not on your life!!!! they are beautifull in form ( and function)

(surprise #3)
I certainly don't equate "audiophile" with overly polite ( I don't either)I think of it more in terms of holographic imaging, revealing of detail, low distortion, and tonal accuracy. Unfortunately it is frequently at the cost of dynamic presentation

These speakers are some of the BEST audiophile speakers I have heard, imaging, detail, low distortion, smoothness these have it way more than most AND it is not at the lost of any dynamic presentation.


as i said throw everything you have learned out the window. These puppies can play so softly AND yet all the details and sound is there..I'm playing them A LOT in the 60's and low 70's( unheard of for me), yet when the volumn goes up they just purrrr, again NO distortion, just smooth, clear and F'ing loud music.

I'll write more on this when I have a chance.. ( still pretty busy)

Mr. Widget
07-27-2005, 01:14 PM
"These speakers are some of the BEST audiophile speakers I have heard, imaging, detail, low distortion, smoothness these have it way more than most AND it is not at the lost of any dynamic presentation."

I believe you and look forward to getting to hear them at some point. From what you are saying, the marketing wizards at JBL need to be let go... if these speakers can do all that and they are still not selling... the problem is in marketplace perception and distribution.

As for their aesthetics... they don't have the high end look with real rosewood or birdseye maple etc. that other speakers at their price point do. I'll take your word for it that in person they have a quality look. The difference between quality and crap is hard to tell in a photo.

Widget

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2005, 01:42 PM
As for their aesthetics... they don't have the high end look with real rosewood or birdseye maple etc. that other speakers at their price point do. I'll take your word for it that in person they have a quality look. The difference between quality and crap is hard to tell in a photo.

Widget

I agree that they don't look like super quality "High-End" speakers, but neither do they look "Best Buy" crap either ( and I use the word crap loosely - I own the S312's and for the money they are really good, I like them alot). The original specs for the PS design was for modular HT I believe - and they show it. They ARE very cool looking tho as is.

I think they are on to something here, BUT, the looks, and marketing could use some BIG help. Here's what I would do if I had these.

1. Design a set of "High-end speakers" that look better - no docking - all one piece.
2: get rid of the docking binding post ( and those connectors :barf: ) and wire the tit-domes straight from the crossover.
3. Get rid of the amp inside the woofer
4. Find away to paint or color the mid-bass and mid-range so they don't look metalic ( what you see is what you hear sometimes at first blush)

I plan to do #2 and #3 myself and build new crossovers. I'll most likely start next year ( get some money first)

got to go

Mr. Widget
07-27-2005, 02:11 PM
Well, there is nothing wrong with metal cones and domes when they are done well...

Both of these speakers sound fantastic.... The Revel Salon, the one on the left shares quite a lot with your Performance Series. They were both born in Northridge.

Widget

Lancer
07-27-2005, 02:54 PM
the marketing wizards at JBL need to be let go... if these speakers can do all that and they are still not selling... the problem is in marketplace perception and distribution.The JBL Marketing Department in the United States hasn't been heard from in quite some time. If you see any of them please contact Harman International. Here is a group photo for reference.

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2005, 03:03 PM
Yes, they do sound fanastic! that's been one reason I've been thinking about the PS for a long time.

Of course we must be fair to all the people at JBL( except maybe the marketing people - they've blown it with alot of dealers). The PS was no more designed to be an "audiophile" speaker than the studio monitors were designed to be played in the home and I find no fault with the engineering people ( GT is still my favorite) when it comes to the PS. Yes, I'm not a fan of the connectors and extra binding posts, BUT, then the PS were designed for primarily HT and the basic design is very, very clever.

What's surprising is how good these sound in an "audiophile" setting and I'm sure that with a little tweating they will be even better.

Also, the market Landscape is ( and has for the last 5 or 6 years) changed alot. Most people now don't care about "good" sound. People will spend $7000 on big screen and then turn around and say "well, I need some speakers, what have you got for $500". Look at what's happened in CC in the last year or so. While they were never "high-end" they did have one level above BB and had some really nice $1000 to $1500 speakers ( each). Go into their stores now and they have downsized what they are showing and it's all really cheap stuff - gone is the "better" stuff.

While I'm sure that one reason they didn't sell is that no one could find them ( that would help for sure), but also, fewer people are willing to spend that much and those who are maybe looking at the more expensive "audiophile" shit. who knows?

Bottom-line for me is that I"VE GOT MINE - and I'm a happy camper.....

edgewound
07-27-2005, 03:05 PM
Here's a fact...most audiophile snobs would never consider owning a JBL speaker, because from the get-go they were never considered "accurate" until the L112/4411 design was born. JBL was always considered the "California Sound" with big bass and sizzling high end, in-your-face qualities that seem to offend the rest of the world. Funny thing is, the majorty of recording studio monitors are JBL with maybe the exception of classical-music studios use of B&W and Tannoy.


Sometimes it seems to me that Harman would like to see all dealers disappear so they can sell factory direct at full retail. The differences between JBL Consumer(New York) and JBL Pro(Northridge) attitudes about the end user is astonishing. Mark Gander at Pro was elated when the two Divisions were separated. Also, with a high end speaker like Revel, there is a snowball's chance in hell that JBL Consumer speakers will ever find their way into the elite high-end channels. The snobs just laugh...and we just shake our heads in disbelief....and laugh back,when they spend $15,000 on a speaker cable that has been sprinkled with some magic dust to make the cable image better...and the cable manufacturers are laughing at their customers all the way to the bank...some people do have more money than sense.

Go figure the nutty world of audio...and "audiophiles"...he who spends the most "obviously" has a better system...right? Yeah...right:blink: :bs:

Edgewound

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2005, 03:10 PM
The JBL Marketing Department in the United States hasn't been heard from in quite some time. If you see any of them please contact Harman International. Here is a group photo for reference.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Geez and all the time I thought it was these people:

Lancer
07-27-2005, 03:14 PM
I plan to do #2 and #3 myself and build new the crossovers.Build external charge coupled filters... they will "benefit immensely". ;)

L112/4411L110 and 4313. ;) Close enough though, that was the general time period.

Here's a fact...most audiophile snobs would never consider owning a JBL speaker, because from the get-go they were never considered "accurate"Yes, agreed, we've lamented that very fact since the first forum.

Sometimes it seems to me that Harman would like to see all dealers disappear so they can sell factory direct at full retail.That wouldn't surprise me at all!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Geez and all the time I thought is was these people:How did you find that picture! I thought that historical photo was destroyed in the earthquake. :p

JBLnsince1959
07-27-2005, 03:41 PM
How did you find that picture! I thought that historical photo was destroyed in the earthquake. :p

:rotfl:

Just lucky I guess....... :D

MJC
07-27-2005, 05:16 PM
You're kidding right? :rotfl:

Anyway, do you know someone who gets a regular paycheck from Best Buy?

Maybe the implication is for MJC to get a job at Best Buy? ;)

I'd know more than any of the clowns they have at the Carson Valley BB.
I've been told that they're putting a Magnolia HT in that BB, but it hasn't happened yet.

MJC
07-27-2005, 05:39 PM
The JBL Marketing Department in the United States hasn't been heard from in quite some time. If you see any of them please contact Harman International. Here is a group photo for reference.


From what I hear from dealers around here is that JBL has shot itself in the foot, when it comes to its dealers. My take on that was that the small dealers who were selling ANY of Harman's products were continually being underminded by Harman, who would them also sell to the large chains, be it BB, CC, Sears, MW. And of coarse, the chains can and do sell for less.

MJC
07-27-2005, 05:43 PM
[QUOTE=
I think they are on to something here, BUT, the looks, and marketing could use some BIG help. Here's what I would do if I had these.

1. Design a set of "High-end speakers" that look better - no docking - all one piece.
2: get rid of the docking binding post ( and those connectors :barf: ) and wire the tit-domes straight from the crossover.
3. Get rid of the amp inside the woofer
4. Find away to paint or color the mid-bass and mid-range so they don't look metalic ( what you see is what you hear sometimes at first blush)

I plan to do #2 and #3 myself and build new crossovers. I'll most likely start next year ( get some money first)

got to go[/QUOTE]

I won't be using the docking posts or the woofers. The sub1500 is a better sub, and I've already got two of them.

MJC
07-27-2005, 06:05 PM
[QUOTE=JBLnsince1959
Also, the market Landscape is ( and has for the last 5 or 6 years) changed alot. Most people now don't care about "good" sound. People will spend $7000 on big screen and then turn around and say "well, I need some speakers, what have you got for $500". Look at what's happened in CC in the last year or so. While they were never "high-end" they did have one level above BB and had some really nice $1000 to $1500 speakers ( each). Go into their stores now and they have downsized what they are showing and it's all really cheap stuff - gone is the "better" stuff.
Bottom-line for me is that I"VE GOT MINE - and I'm a happy camper.....[/QUOTE]

I've told people over at AVS and other forums, that if they have a big screen TV and either crappy HT speakers or only the speakers in the TV, they've only got a big screen. It takes a very good audio system, especially the speakers, to make it a HT.
And if the speakers aren't very good at playing music, they're still crap.

Titanium Dome
07-27-2005, 10:03 PM
I've told people over at AVS and other forums, that if they have a big screen TV and either crappy HT speakers or only the speakers in the TV, they've only got a big screen. It takes a very good audio system, especially the speakers, to make it a HT.
And if the speakers aren't very good at playing music, they're still crap.

Another interesting idea I run into over there (at AVS) is the idea that you can have a) good HT sound, OR b) good musical sound, BUT NOT BOTH. So guys defend their Ascends or Paradigms as "musical" while the JBLs are "great for boomy HT" and so on. I try to avoid calling people or their preferences names, but I do get tired of all the pussy speakers they throw out as "musical, magical, magnificent, mysterious." Most of 'em give up at 35 or 40 HZ, already down several dB, or they have an upper mid hump that'd shame a camel.

Where I think it all goes wrong is many of those speakers have really nice looking finishes. After all, if the enclosure looks really good, people will just say, "S#!t, those must be fine speakers. I bet they sound like a million bucks." The guy never actually has to play them, cuz they look so good.

Well, I mostly listen to music with my eyes closed or watch movies in the dark. So what do I care if there's a rosewood finish if the speaker sounds like a freakin' Boseplus?

These Performance Speakers look terrific up close and from a distance. If you get the "Black Ash" finish, the octagon shape takes you right to the heart of the matter: the beautiful, inverted dome, rubber surround, smooth, cool, special, Titanium drivers. As I tell those guys over there: "You want paper or plastic? You can get that at the supermarket. You can only get these Ti domes one place: The JBL Performance Series."

Here are the response curves of a couple of the Performance Series competitors:

Mr. Widget
07-28-2005, 11:04 AM
These Performance Speakers look terrific up close and from a distance. If you get the "Black Ash" finish, the octagon shape takes you right to the heart of the matter: the beautiful, inverted dome, rubber surround, smooth, cool, special, Titanium drivers. As I tell those guys over there: "You want paper or plastic? You can get that at the supermarket. You can only get these Ti domes one place: The JBL Performance Series."

Dude... you need to cc this stuff to JBL Consumer and become an advisor on their marketing team!:bouncy:


Widget

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 01:11 PM
Dude... you need to cc this stuff to JBL Consumer and become an advisor on their marketing team!:bouncy:



yes, the man does a way with words... Wish I had half his talent. ;)

Titanium Dome
07-28-2005, 01:39 PM
But if you've seen the one or two ads that JBL put out for the Performance Series, you be red, too, but from frustration rather than coquettish embarrasment like I am.

I totally dig Wynton Marsalis and music lover Ally Waters is muy bonita, but where's the speaker in all this? Oh, there it is, down in the corner! And it's even named in small print for everyone to see.

Titanium Dome
07-28-2005, 01:43 PM
After looking at that ad, all I really come away with is wanting to date Ally Waters. Anybody know her?

:banana:

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 01:48 PM
After looking at that ad, all I really come away with is wanting to date Ally Waters. Anybody know her?

:banana:

Dome....somehow saying you want to Date her and then have a dancing banana just after somehow looks WRONG..... :D

sfellini
07-28-2005, 03:22 PM
Actually that ad prompts me to ask a question about
the two: has anyone heard them both? And how do
they compare (other than the fact that the PS goes
way lower)?

If I were going to buy _new_ JBL it would be one
of these (well, the K2, but gotta win the lottery
first).

Anyone?

Steve.

Lancer
07-28-2005, 03:45 PM
The woman has good hearing.

Lancer
07-28-2005, 03:50 PM
You're going to have to compare them yourself.

One JBL engineer thinks the PT800 is better (he actually prefers the LSR6328 over the LSR6332). Another JBL engineer thinks the LSR6332 is better. I value both of their opinions but I'd personally take the PT800 since I listen at home and it is geared 100% towards home use.

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 04:27 PM
One JBL engineer thinks the PT800 is better.
Another JBL engineer thinks the LSR6332 is better.



Did they say what they thought was better ( or why they liked one over the other)?

Just wondering.......

Mr. Widget
07-28-2005, 04:29 PM
Did they say what they thought was better ( or why they liked one over the other)?

Just wondering.......

They all secretly have Bose at home.:duck:


Widget

Audiobeer
07-28-2005, 04:36 PM
The JBL Marketing Department in the United States hasn't been heard from in quite some time. If you see any of them please contact Harman International. Here is a group photo for reference.

In the photo it is clear where the 4430 design recieved some input from a couple of folks I see in the marketing photo you supplied.

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 04:38 PM
They all secretly have Bose at home.:duck:


Widget

doesn't everyone??? :rolleyes:

Lancer
07-28-2005, 04:49 PM
In the photo it is clear where the 4430 design recieved some input from a couple of folks I see in the marketing photo you supplied.I see you are paying attention. Where do you think the slot loaded ring radiator idea came from?
Did they say what they thought was better ( or why they liked one over the other)?Yes.

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 04:49 PM
A little off track, but since we're here.

Audiobeer came by today and bought my 4430's so he's got those on his mind. I'll just like to say he is very nice guy and a true gentleman.

Had a great time today ( even tho it was a little rushed ) and enjoyed meeting you Audiobeer. Hope you like the speakers and that your wife isn't to upset.

By the way.....she didn't know what speakers he was getting..think she's just now getting a good at those wonderful wife pleaser's..... :rotfl: :rotfl:

Hopefully we'll see each other again soon..

as soon as I get the pictures I'll do a thread on it

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 04:50 PM
I see you are paying attention. Where do you think the slot loaded ring radiator idea came from?

DAMN...I didn't know it was so much fun working for JBL :p

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 04:51 PM
Yes.

Thanks, well I'm glad we cleared that up once and for all :D

Lancer
07-28-2005, 04:55 PM
Audiobeer came by today and bought my 4430'sCool! 4430's as front channels and 4313B's as surrounds? I did that for awhile. Worked quite nice! I'm going back to larger surrounds after screwing around with the various JBL 6.5" 2-ways for a few years.

JBLnsince1959
07-28-2005, 07:33 PM
I'm going back to larger surrounds after screwing around with the various JBL 6.5" 2-ways for a few years.

what are you planning to use?

Lancer
07-29-2005, 01:59 AM
Custom 120Ti types with LE10H's instead of the 128H-1's along with charge coupled filters and 044Ti's that have been coated with aquaplas.

MJC
07-29-2005, 04:25 AM
I think they are on to something here, BUT, the looks, and marketing could use some BIG help. Here's what I would do if I had these.

1. Design a set of "High-end speakers" that look better - no docking - all one piece.
2: get rid of the docking binding post ( and those connectors :barf: ) and wire the tit-domes straight from the crossover.
3. Get rid of the amp inside the woofer
4. Find away to paint or color the mid-bass and mid-range so they don't look metalic ( what you see is what you hear sometimes at first blush)

I plan to do #2 and #3 myself and build new crossovers. I'll most likely start next year ( get some money first)

got to go

For HT you want to be able to place the sub where it works best, if its all in one, you can't do that.
I've got both active and passive subs, I can swing either way on that one.
Paint, NO way, those P800's look GOOD as is.
But only having seen them on the net I don't know which of the cabinet colors I like best tho.

MJC
07-29-2005, 04:50 AM
Sometimes it seems to me that Harman would like to see all dealers disappear so they can sell factory direct at full retail. The differences between JBL Consumer(New York) and JBL Pro(Northridge) attitudes about the end user is astonishing. Mark Gander at Pro was elated when the two Divisions were separated. Also, with a high end speaker like Revel, there is a snowball's chance in hell that JBL Consumer speakers will ever find their way into the elite high-end channels. The snobs just laugh...and we just shake our heads in disbelief....and laugh back,when they spend $15,000 on a speaker cable that has been sprinkled with some magic dust to make the cable image better...and the cable manufacturers are laughing at their customers all the way to the bank...some people do have more money than sense.
Edgewound

Back in the '60's~70'S the ONLY way one could buy JBLs at a discount was to buy the store's floor units, as I did in '79. Got 25% off a set of L212s.

MJC
07-29-2005, 04:57 AM
While I'm sure that one reason they didn't sell is that no one could find them ( that would help for sure), but also, fewer people are willing to spend that much and those who are maybe looking at the more expensive "audiophile" shit. who knows?

Bottom-line for me is that I"VE GOT MINE - and I'm a happy camper.....

I just looked on the Harman online store, no PS, so somebody has been buying the PS they had listed on that site.

johnaec
07-29-2005, 06:06 AM
I just looked on the Harman online store, no PS, so somebody has been buying the PS they had listed on that site.They're still listed at the JBL Main site, but apparently no more Cherry. :( These are the speakers I've been looking towards someday - I hope they aren't in the collector's stratosphere by then...

John

Lancer
07-29-2005, 06:31 AM
I just looked on the Harman online store, no PS, so somebody has been buying the PS they had listed on that site.I think it might have to do with a new agreement or two. I don't think any Synthesis gear is available from the online store but I could be wrong. I think this was posted before, here it is again:

Following are highlights of JBL’s products and systems featured at CES 2005:

JBL Performance Series: A Complete Lineup of High-End Home Theater Audio Systems

At CES 2005, JBL is broadening its high-end Performance Series lineup to encompass a full range of complete home theater audio systems that includes loudspeakers and electronics. Six complete multichannel home theater audio solutions are offered in the JBL Performance Series, ranging from the 5.1-channel JBL Performance System 7 package to the JBL Premier Performance 7.1-channel on-wall and in-wall systems. All are designed to offer extraordinary sonic realism, along with unmatched operational flexibility and ease of use, in rooms ranging in size from 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet.

Each JBL Performance Series system is based around the new Performance Series AV1 Surround Processor/System Controller and AVA7 7-Channel Power Amplifier. In addition to the AV1 and AVA7, each system includes a specific 7.1-channel or 5.1-channel loudspeaker and subwoofer complement, meeting a wide range of customer installation requirements.

A variety of loudspeakers is available to create a broad range of on-wall- and in-wall-based systems. Available models include the Performance P941 and P81 advanced-technology in-wall speakers, as well as the Performance PT800 tower main/surround loudspeaker and Performance PC600 center channel speaker. Rounding out the lineup are the Performance PS1400 14-inch, 400-watt powered subwoofer, and JBL’s HTPS400 12-inch, 1000-watt powered subwoofer.

The JBL Performance Series AV1 is a state-of-the-art, software-upgradeable 7.1-channel surround processor/system controller that utilizes the most advanced digital technologies to achieve the highest possible resolution and fidelity. The AV1 is compatible with all popular surround sound decoding formats and incorporates Harman International’s exclusive 7.1 Logic 7® processing for enhanced surround sound realism. Along with extraordinary audio performance, the AV1 offers exceptional connectivity, including high-bandwidth, HDTV-compatible component-video switching, and multiple RS-232 ports for facilitating integrated system operation.

The AVA7 7-channel power amplifier is designed for superb sonic performance in every respect, and delivers a generous 120 watts into each channel (into 8 ohms, <0.03% THD). The AVA7 includes connections that interface with the AV1, enabling sophisticated automatic control capabilities. Its ventilation design routes air from the rear and through the sides, rather than through the top of the amplifier, enabling it to be stacked directly on top of or underneath other components to save installation space.

The on-wall models in the JBL Performance Series include the Performance PT800 tower loudspeaker (1-inch tweeter, 4-inch midrange driver, 8-inch woofer), Performance PS1400 powered subwoofer (14-inch woofer, built-in 400-watt amplifier), and Performance PC600 center channel (1-inch tweeter, dual 6-inch woofers, 4-inch midrange driver). In addition, JBL’s HTPS400 powered subwoofer (12-inch woofer, built-in 1000-watt amplifier) is now available as part of the Performance Series. The HTPS400 features a compact enclosure that enables it to be readily placed in a wide variety of room locations.

The speakers’ modular design allows the PT800 tower to be stacked atop the PS1400 subwoofer, mounted separately on a wall or installed on optional available stands, providing maximum installation flexibility. All the speakers utilize a unique shallow-profile enclosure that allows them to occupy a minimum of floor space, making them ideal for use in home theater installations using flat-panel display monitors or projection screens. All models are constructed using professional-quality JBL drivers and components and the company’s most advanced technologies, such as inverted titanium-cone mid-bass and midrange drivers, and pure-titanium tweeters operating in conjunction with JBL’s unique Elliptical Oblate Spheroidal™ (EOS™) waveguide for precise imaging over a wide listening area.

The Performance Series P941 and P81 in-wall speakers are ultrahigh-end designs that utilize woofers and midrange drivers made from an advanced-technology aluminum/ceramic multilayer diaphragm material. This material is far more rigid and lightweight than other types of cone materials, dramatically reducing distortion and eliminating the sonic colorations caused by cone breakup in conventional speakers. Complementing these drivers, the P941 and P81 both employ pure-titanium tweeters for detailed and extended high-frequency response. The P941 (9-inch woofer, 3-1/2-inch midrange driver, 1-inch tweeter) and P81 (7-1/2-inch woofer, 1-inch tweeter) incorporate a host of additional refinements, including front-panel listener axis, high-frequency contour, high-frequency level and low-frequency boundary compensation controls that allow precise sonic tailoring in any installation, to achieve exceptional sound quality.

JBL will also introduce its innovative JBL BassQ™ Automatic Room Mode Correction™ (RMC™) Processor later in 2005, which can be added to any Performance Series system. The BassQ RMC processor is a low-frequency-response correction component that utilizes supplied measurement microphones and advanced DSP equalization to compensate for the peaks and dips in frequency response that are inherent in every room, and achieve smooth, accurate bass response.

Pricing for JBL Performance Series systems ranges from approximately $15,000 for the JBL Performance System 7 5.1-channel in-wall system to $30,000 for the JBL Premier Performance 7.1-channel on-wall and in-wall packages. Availability for the JBL Performance Series will be announced.

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 06:39 AM
They're still listed at the JBL Main site, but apparently no more Cherry. :( These are the speakers I've been looking towards someday - I hope they aren't in the collector's stratosphere by then...

John

that's one reason I jumped on these now ( even tho it wasn't in my plans). If they are so hard to find and get when they were making these things, I didn't know how hard it would be to find them when they stopped making them, PLUS, the price was right.... :D

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 06:46 AM
I

A variety of loudspeakers is available to create a broad range of on-wall- and in-wall-based systems. Available models include the Performance P941 and P81 advanced-technology in-wall speakers,

[i]The Performance Series P941 and P81 in-wall speakers are ultrahigh-end designs that utilize woofers and midrange drivers made from an advanced-technology aluminum/ceramic multilayer diaphragm material. This material is far more rigid and lightweight than other types of cone materials, dramatically reducing distortion and eliminating the sonic colorations caused by cone breakup in conventional speakers. Complementing these drivers, the P941 and P81 both employ pure-titanium tweeters for detailed and extended high-frequency response. The P941 (9-inch woofer, 3-1/2-inch midrange driver, 1-inch tweeter) and P81 (7-1/2-inch woofer, 1-inch tweeter) incorporate a host of additional refinements, including front-panel listener axis, high-frequency contour, high-frequency level and low-frequency boundary compensation controls that allow precise sonic tailoring in any installation, to achieve exceptional sound quality.



Yes, it was posted before ( or at least I saw it). I've been wondering about those P941 and P81...can't find any more info on them. I noticed that they use a larger woofer than the 800

Any body know more about these ?

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 07:09 AM
Custom 120Ti types with LE10H's instead of the 128H-1's along with charge coupled filters and 044Ti's that have been coated with aquaplas.

Waaay cooool, Damn, that's amazing.....

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 07:10 AM
I just looked on the Harman online store, no PS, so somebody has been buying the PS they had listed on that site.

I agree with johnaec...they're still there...just not in all finishes

johnaec
07-29-2005, 07:20 AM
I just looked on the Harman online store, no PS, so somebody has been buying the PS they had listed on that site.The "refurbs" are still there, even listed in Cherry: http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

John

Titanium Dome
07-29-2005, 10:57 AM
The "refurbs" are still there, even listed in Cherry: http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

John


I'm still amazed at the constant stream of refurbs available there. Where do they come from?

I may have to pay the refurb price to get my fourth (and final) PS1400 before they disappear. Then I'll try four different set ups: two with front stacks and two without.

johnaec
07-29-2005, 11:03 AM
I'm still amazed at the constant stream of refurbs available there. Where do they come from?Maybe no one's buying?

John

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 12:00 PM
Maybe no one's buying?

John

Only thing I can think of.

Dome, what the hell do you need another 1400 for??? Are you thinking of putting one under bed to vibrate the bed or something? :D

Seriously, how much bass do you need?

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 12:38 PM
Back in the '60's~70'S the ONLY way one could buy JBLs at a discount was to buy the store's floor units, as I did in '79. Got 25% off a set of L212s.


OR, being best friends with the stores owner.... :D :applaud:

Titanium Dome
07-29-2005, 01:09 PM
Only thing I can think of.

Dome, what the hell do you need another 1400 for??? Are you thinking of putting one under bed to vibrate the bed or something? :D

Seriously, how much bass do you need?

I want to try the JBL/Harman recs on multisubs, using two subs and two stacks, subs placed as in the left diagram. I'll also try four subs as in the other two diagrams.

My fear about "unstacking" is that my stereo music experience will suffer.

MJC
07-29-2005, 02:06 PM
I want to try the JBL/Harman recs on multisubs, using two subs and two stacks, subs placed as in the left diagram. I'll also try four subs as in the other two diagrams.

My fear about "unstacking" is that my stereo music experience will suffer.

Nothing wrong with multi-subs, I'm using 5. The two main 15" subs in the front corners, one 12" connected to the center, and two 12" subs near the mid-point of the side walls, connected to the SS.

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 02:56 PM
Nothing wrong with multi-subs, .

I know, I'm just teasing Dome...... :D

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 02:57 PM
My fear about "unstacking" is that my stereo music experience will suffer.

I think that would be a real concern......

JBLnsince1959
07-29-2005, 03:03 PM
I want to try the JBL/Harman recs on multisubs, using two subs and two stacks, subs placed as in the left diagram. I'll also try four subs as in the other two diagrams.

.

They forgot to mention one more configuration and that is a sub under each seat pointed up at the person. :blink:

Titanium Dome
07-29-2005, 09:19 PM
They forgot to mention one more configuration and that is a sub under each seat pointed up at the person. :blink:


That's because JBL doesn't make Buttkickers.

http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/bass-shakers.html :moon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search/102-7283530-1624936?search-type=ss&keyword=ButtKickers&index=electronics :moon:

:homer: Go ahead, kick it. Kick it.

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2005, 07:40 AM
That's because JBL doesn't make Buttkickers.



Oh MY God..... I think I've seen it all now.... :D

MJC
07-30-2005, 07:45 PM
The "refurbs" are still there, even listed in Cherry: http://www.harmanaudio.com/search_browse/default.asp?sp=S&brand=JBL&market=HOM

John

For whatever reason, when I brought up that page, that day, it must have only part loaded. Being I remember there were only two lines of products, which I thought was strange.

btw, how can there be refurb units available when they don't have any places in which to sell them new? I know Dome had to search all over this country to find a Systhesis dealer who had any.

That writeup sounds like they are going to put the JBL name on either the Lexicon MC12v4 processor or the HK 635 receiver. Both have the auto eq. And it works great, until it overloads, and has to be reset. I just sent an email to J&R comp/music about getting another HK635.

johnaec
07-30-2005, 07:55 PM
It IS pretty bizarre that they don't have the Performance series listed for sale under "Current Models", but DO have the K2 S9800 series...

John

JBLnsince1959
07-30-2005, 08:20 PM
It IS pretty bizarre that they don't have the Performance series listed for sale under "Current Models", but DO have the K2 S9800 series...

John

The performance series are being ( or have been) discontinued this year.....

MJC
07-30-2005, 09:00 PM
The performance series are being ( or have been) discontinued this year.....

They're still shown on the JBL web site, and if you look at the Systhesis systems there is at least one that used the Performance Series, with the boxes having squared corners, and given THX certifcation and a different name.

I hope they're not dropping them, haven't even seen a pair in real life.

Lancer
07-31-2005, 05:42 AM
The performance series are being ( or have been) discontinued this year.....Who told you that?
It IS pretty bizarre that they don't have the Performance series listed for sale under "Current Models", but DO have the K2 S9800 series...
Check with a Synthesis Dealer.

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 06:02 AM
Who told you that?

the dealer I bought them from.... I hope she was wrong. It didn't make sense to me as they were so positive about them in their CES 2005 report.

we'll see...

Lancer
07-31-2005, 06:04 AM
Maybe she's being discontinued?

Who knows, the Series has been 'discontinued' several times. Maybe the deal with Tweeter stores fell through and JBL did decide to axe them. I still don't see where Tweeters is an Authorized JBL Dealer yet.

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 06:07 AM
Maybe she's being discontinued? Who knows, the Series has been 'discontinued' several times. Maybe the deal with Tweeter stores fell through and JBL did decide to axe them.



I have no idea........

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 06:22 AM
Maybe she's being discontinued?



Not likely, she really knew her stuff. However, Maybe ( just mabe) I misunderstood her. The reason MikeBake and his friend got such as good deal is that they were getting rid of their floor models and excess stock. ( Mind had to be ordered)

However, the gist I came away with was that JBL was going to discontinue them....

By the way, who ( or what) is Tweeters...haven't heard of them.



I'll really like to find some "old beat-up" 800's and try a JM Labs beryllium tweeter in there just for fun. :D

Lancer
07-31-2005, 06:32 AM
http://www.tweeter.com/home/index.jsp

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 06:33 AM
http://www.tweeter.com/home/index.jsp

thanks....

MJC
07-31-2005, 07:09 AM
I want to try the JBL/Harman recs on multisubs, using two subs and two stacks, subs placed as in the left diagram. I'll also try four subs as in the other two diagrams.

My fear about "unstacking" is that my stereo music experience will suffer.

I don't see that being a problem. The PS is very simular to the L212 system; 3-way sats, almost identical in size, and subs.
The stereo sound, imaging of the L212s is as it should be and the sub is its own unit, and I've always have had it in the corner. Now mind you, I've never tried the L212s with a sub below each of the 3-ways. I might try that today, just to hear what it sounds like.

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 07:11 AM
Looks like even if tweeters get's em, the closest store is about 390 miles away..... :(

MJC
07-31-2005, 07:52 AM
Maybe no one's buying?

John


Its a bit difficult to buy speakers that people either have never heard of, or know about them and can't find a store that sells them. Or in Dome's case, calls a local Systhesis dealer to buy a set and the dealer tells him to get lost.

On the topic of them being discontinued, maybe they'll go the same way as the sub1500.

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 08:22 AM
Its a bit difficult to buy speakers that people either have never heard of, or know about them and can't find a store that sells them.

very hard indeed...



Or in Dome's case, calls a local Systhesis dealer to buy a set and the dealer tells him to get lost.

that one blows my mind....I can't even fathom that... I mean really...... :dont-know

Titanium Dome
07-31-2005, 09:22 AM
very hard indeed...


that one blows my mind....I can't even fathom that... I mean really...... :dont-know


I worked one summer selling Audi, VW, and Porsche automobiles, and I know several salesman and sales managers that wouldn't waste their time on VW customers. "Flip 'em and strip 'em or ship 'em" was the philosophy. Get them to buy up or get them off the lot was the message. We carried at least one demo of each VW model, but never had anything in stock to sell, especially at the low end. Upsell was the order of the day.

Of course this left the entire lower end of potential customers open to me, and I became the #1 monthly sales guy (in only two months!), got an award from VW, etc. Still, the manager was pissed that I wasn't upselling more people and stripping more cash from their wallets and purses. Eventually I had to tell the sales manager to KMA :moon: and went on my way.

I drove by the other day, and the dealership was completely gone: torn down and replaced by a Rite Aid drug store.

To a degree that was VW's fault, I guess, but the blame really lay on the dealership and its philosophy. I see the same thing at high end audio and HT dealers, includng the Synthesis folks I dealt with. They'd rather sell one Porsche or two Audis than six VWs. :biting:

JBLnsince1959
07-31-2005, 10:15 AM
I worked one summer selling Audi, VW, and Porsche automobiles, and I know several salesman and sales managers that wouldn't waste their time on VW customers. "Flip 'em and strip 'em or ship 'em" was the philosophy. Get them to buy up or get them off the lot was the message. We carried at least one demo of each VW model, but never had anything in stock to sell, especially at the low end. Upsell was the order of the day.



( VBP ) Very Bad Policy...... the purpose of sales is to get as many people to trust you as a company....those people who bought VW's would buy again in the future and would most likely buy from the same dealer....AND some would upgrade.... and also get their cars serviced there, PLUS good word of mouth....etc, etc

YES, I've heard it before "takes as much time to sell a high priced item as it does a lower price item"...BUT... the real purpose of sales is to sell people what they best NEED( and can afford).....if you do that honestly then you create a loyal base.

The dealer was a very BAD and short-sighted salesman ( same with the guy who turned you away)

Anyway.....Hey Dome did you get to try the wires (I almost hate to ask - I know how busy you've been)

MJC
07-31-2005, 11:07 AM
I don't see that being a problem. The PS is very simular to the L212 system; 3-way sats, almost identical in size, and subs.
The stereo sound, imaging of the L212s is as it should be and the sub is its own unit, and I've always have had it in the corner. Now mind you, I've never tried the L212s with a sub below each of the 3-ways. I might try that today, just to hear what it sounds like.


I may have to re-think that statement. For the first time in 26 years I've been listening to the L212s with a sub under them. But its the sub1500s not the B212s.

Now I'm certain most of the difference I hear is due to the fact that the combined towers stand 8" taller than when the L212s are on their bases. This puts the 066 @ 43" above the floor, compared to normally being @ 35".

But what seems strange is that the highs seem to be more open, despite the 7" difference between the ear and tweeter elevations.

I think I'll leave them this way for a few days. Haven't listened to any movies yet. It will be interesting to hear if I lose any VLF, now the subs aren't in the corners.

DavidF
07-31-2005, 01:24 PM
I may have to re-think that statement. For the first time in 26 years I've been listening to the L212s with a sub under them. But its the sub1500s not the B212s.

Now I'm certain most of the difference I hear is due to the fact that the combined towers stand 8" taller than when the L212s are on their bases. This puts the 066 @ 43" above the floor, compared to normally being @ 35".

But what seems strange is that the highs seem to be more open, despite the 7" difference between the ear and tweeter elevations.

I think I'll leave them this way for a few days. Haven't listened to any movies yet. It will be interesting to hear if I lose any VLF, now the subs aren't in the corners.

John, one clue to this might be the vertical polar response of the L212. Even order crossovers will have a tilted radiation pattern to some degree, either up or down, due to the phase and vertical separation aspects of the design. I looked at the vertical pattern on the L212 White Papers (pg 12) and there does seem to be a downward tilt as you move up in frequency. The response only shows up to 1.2kHz so we cannot really see what the tilt looks like up in the treble. The higher position of the wings may have your sitting position better situated for the highs. The same effect could be realized by tilting the wings back 15 degrees or more at their original height. I think the same might hold with the L250 et al. The best vertical listening axis might be between the mid range drivers, maybe lower.

DavidF

MJC
07-31-2005, 09:37 PM
DavidF,
I watched a couple of movies later in the day and the stacked setup sounds great. Not sure which way is better for movies, in this room, both ways(sub in corners or stacked) sound great.
But it really takes getting used to the highs really being there, almost too bright, when listening to stereo music. The upper range(to whatever frequency I can hear anymore) has always been clean and crisp.

Of coarse the L212s were not designed to be stacked on the subs, where as the PS are. So I don't know how much of a difference there is with the PS when the subs are in the corners.

One of these days I'll have to break down and buy at least a pair of the PS to hear what Dome sez we are all missing.

DavidF
08-01-2005, 08:45 AM
Comments added:



My suggestions above do not hold up after reading more info on the L212. If I had gone further in the technical notes (page 14), I would have seen that the vertical radiation patterns in the mid-to-treble range are not tilted and any lobe effects do not show, as mentioned in the text, within 45 degrees +/-. So, a listener should not be bothered by vertical interference unless in a near field position. Should have known. Something else is contributing to your situation with the increased high end response.


DavidF

MJC
08-01-2005, 07:53 PM
Well, I figured it out, its the far field auto eq that changed the sound. When turned off, the sound is close to normal as if the L212s are on their bases.
I had the mic set to the same position as when I did the eq when the speakers were in their normal position.

Dome, have you set up your PS mains with the sub in the corners instead of being docked? And if so what was the difference?

Regis
08-02-2005, 06:47 AM
DavidF,
But it really takes getting used to the highs really being there, almost too bright, when listening to stereo music.

I've always liked the appearance and performance potential of the L-212's, but I've heard similiar comments about the 066 tweeter from others that have actually listened to them. While I've never heard a pair (trio?) myself, I'm wondering does the tweeter need taming on this particular model?

Lancer
08-02-2005, 07:25 AM
No, the 066 does not need taming. The L212 is a nicely balanced system, but perhaps a little too mellow in the midrange for those used to L100's and the like. It does not have the presence of the other JBL systems of that era, which is exactly why I preferred it.

I have compared the L212 with the Performance Series. The twenty years between models was well spent. The Performance Series is a worthy successor.

Both systems can be improved upon by the DIY people.

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 07:31 AM
Both systems can be improved upon by the DIY people.

Just wondering what you would think would be some nice changes to the performance series? any ideas ( yes, I know the crossover...anything else, or details about the crossover)

I've been playing with some ideas and will write about them in a few days.... you may have better ideas...

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 07:45 AM
I've playing with different ideas on a new baffle that would have curved edges and ( sloped )time-alignment...and that of course led me to think about using some old 250 boxes, BUT, I'm sure that the mid-range and mid-bass speakers in the PS wouldn't be the same as in a 250 as far as depth ( haven't mesured yet - just playing with rough ideas)

Lancer
08-02-2005, 08:02 AM
The single biggest impact would be charge coupled networks.

The sloped baffle and one edge ala 250Ti is not a bad idea at all if you're into building new boxes.

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 08:15 AM
The single biggest impact would be charge coupled networks.



agree....



The sloped baffle and one edge ala 250Ti is not a bad idea at all if you're into building new boxes



or willing to do a hatch job on the back...and except imperfections with the time alignment :D

seriously tho, yes, it would have to be a new box to be perfect.. I've been playing with this idea...

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 08:20 AM
If I find a pair of really bad and cheap 250 boxes ( I think there were some in Az not to long ago that sold on ebay - maybe again sometime), I may play. Biggest problem is getting all the facts needed for this ( volumn needed..etc)

Still..I think it would be fun... :D

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 08:23 AM
The single biggest impact would be charge coupled networks.



And I'm brain-dead with electronics......that would be my biggest hurdle...

Lancer
08-02-2005, 08:51 AM
If I find a pair of really bad and cheap 250 boxes ( I think there were some in Az not to long ago that sold on ebay - maybe again sometime), I may play. Biggest problem is getting all the facts needed for this ( volumn needed..etc)

Still..I think it would be fun... :DI didn't check what the cutouts were for the three drivers in the PT800, didn't really care. Measure yours and see if they can be fitted to L250 or 250Ti holes. I'm sure the 044/044Ti hole will be a problem. The LE14H on the bottom is fine as is. The subenclosures should be fine as is.

Titanium Dome
08-02-2005, 09:04 AM
Dome, have you set up your PS mains with the sub in the corners instead of being docked? And if so what was the difference?

During my initial set up I did a half-assed job of checking this out, but I've learned so much more since then that I really need to do it again--right!

One of the problems in the initial try was that the system was still in its "pinchy" state, only a few hours old. Another problem was my unwillingness to mount the brackets and try them right on the wall as recommended; instead I compromised on height and put them on temporary stands--not the best idea. Third, I was limiting the power, as the big amps were still driving the L7s, and I didn't have the FAA 1000.5 amps yet. Finally, I compared stacked components with the metal bracket connectors to unstacked components with 12 GA wire, and most of us agree that the brackets do not work as well as wire--any wire.

Now I'm determined to get that fourth PS1400 before unstacking, so I can make the whole enchilada at once using the JBL/Harman multisub findings as a recipe book. :yes:

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 09:22 AM
Finally, I compared stacked components with the metal bracket connectors to unstacked components with 12 GA wire, and most of us agree that the brackets do not work as well as wire--any wire.



That's the first time I've heard you come out and just say it :applaud: the only problem I find with standard stranded 12 gauge wire is that the mids and highs can be smeared compared to smaller wire ( this why I use Kimber cables ) and that will affect the sound and image alot IMHO [ please no flames or debates] ( our most sensitive hearing is 1000 to maybe 8000, with 3000 at the peak of sensitivity)



Now I'm determined to get that fourth PS1400 before unstacking, so I can make the whole enchilada at once using the JBL/Harman multisub findings as a recipe book. :yes:

Go for it..... :applaud: "why do anything half-ass when you can do it over the top" ( or something like that) :D

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 09:56 AM
I didn't check what the cutouts were for the three drivers in the PT800, didn't really care. Measure yours and see if they can be fitted to L250 or 250Ti holes. I'm sure the 044/044Ti hole will be a problem. The LE14H on the bottom is fine as is. The subenclosures should be fine as is.

will do.

Yes, I figure that tweeter and wave guide would be a mess... :D

However, I'm surprised that the subenclosures would work ( nice to know tho :applaud: )...I'm surprised about the bass enclosure in particular, since the PS1400 was designed as an HT subwoofer and the 14" on the 250 was crossed over at 400 and does a good bit of the mid-bass. I was thinking I may have to cut off the back panel and extent the box out the back... BUT, then I haven't measured or studied this in any type of depth.

Does anyone know the volumn/tuning on the 250 VS the volumn/turning for the PS1400?

Titanium Dome
08-02-2005, 10:24 AM
That's the first time I've heard you come out and just say it :applaud: the only problem I find with standard stranded 12 gauge wire is that the mids and highs can be smeared compared to smaller wire ( this why I use Kimber cables ) and that will affect the sound and image alot IMHO

With the wire you sent, I'll be able to make this comparison. JBL certainly uses smaller internal wires.

IMO, though, nothing LOOKS better than the gold-plated brackets. I have to believe that it was form over function when they were designed, and as a form, they are hard to beat.

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 11:57 AM
I have to believe that it was form over function when they were designed, and as a form, they are hard to beat.

I think it was cost

JBLnsince1959
08-02-2005, 12:08 PM
I'll write this and then I HAVE TO GET BACK to work :p

I'm baffled over those brackets.. yes, they look good..BUT I think the sound is most important. But then I'm not a speaker designer so who knows what their thought process was.....

1. ease of use?
2. Looks?
3. cost?
4. all of the above?

of course in any engineering design there are trade offs. I would say this is about the only thing I've disagreed with over the years...

MJC
08-02-2005, 05:45 PM
I've always liked the appearance and performance potential of the L-212's, but I've heard similiar comments about the 066 tweeter from others that have actually listened to them. While I've never heard a pair (trio?) myself, I'm wondering does the tweeter need taming on this particular model?

The 066 isn't normally over brite. But when I set the L212s on top of my sub1500s, which as I said before, is 8" taller than the L212 base.
The overly brite highs were due to the auto eq of the HK AVR 635. I had the mic at the same elevation as when I set it when I L212s were on their bases. When the eq was turned off it brought the sound back to near where it should be.

Zilch
08-02-2005, 05:50 PM
[L@@K inTO my eyes.... :blink: ]

Y'all'll conclude that there's nothing better than the Zilchwires.

I'll sell thousands and thousands of them in many configurations, and make beaucoup bucks.

You'll be tellin' everybody you knew me "when."

[L@@K inTO my eyes.... :blink: ]

johnaec
08-02-2005, 05:53 PM
Look inTO my eyes.... :blink: :hyp: :hyp: :hyp:

John