What is everyone using to power their 1400 Arrays?

[tom1040]

I stole a thread title and substituted 1400 Arrays. Sorry, but curious. It seems the EMF(do I have that right?)back current from the Arrays powerful motor of the woofer may cause some issues to fully resolve the bass response. I really am curious to what people have done to 'correct' this issue.

Mine? A switch from McIntosh MC402 (400 wpc into 2,4 or 8 ohms) to Marantz MA9S2 mono blocks. I am not qualified to give a reason for the difference. But I am qualified enough to know that these damn fine looking amps do the freaking job. Yes, I think some effort went into the design--maybe like the design for the speakers? ....or any speakers for that matter.)


Quality. You see and feel and hear it in speakers. The very same with the sources. It has been almost a year since I bought this reference system and I still marvel at the construction. Yes, I adore my system-from the Arrays(not everyones cup of tea from a visual standpoint) to the tactile feel of the gear that makes music sound great-to me.

That is my power to drive the speakers. I would love to hear your story.

Be well everyone and remember, this is a hobby. Ones opinion is just that. Do not discount it.

[Mr. Widget]

Could you describe the sonic differences between the different amps you've tried?

I'll chime in about my experiences later... busy at the moment. :)


Widget

[4313B]

I stole a thread title and substituted 1400 Arrays. Sorry, but curious. It seems the EMF(do I have that right?)back current from the Arrays powerful motor of the woofer may cause some issues to fully resolve the bass response. I really am curious to what people have done to 'correct' this issue.
120 amps of instantaneous current from a Harman Kardon Citation 22.

[RedCoat23]

120 amps of instantaneous current from a Harman Kardon Citation 22.

...jeez...you could weld with that...:blink:

[LeBon]

I'm thinking in terms of an Outlaw 7900 (7 X 300 W) for the home theater (a while into the future). Right now it is a 2 x 80 W Denon PMA-915R I had around.

[hjames]

120 amps of instantaneous current from a Harman Kardon Citation 22. Got to love those old Citation 22s - tons of fun for my 4641! 54929

[tom1040]

120 amps of instantaneous current from a Harman Kardon Citation 22.



Very nice!

An excerpt from the Marantz spec sheet;



•

300 Watts into 8 Ohms, 600 Watts into 4 Ohms
• >150 Amps Peak Current Supply


Given my current(no pun intended)situation with 'tax season' I will discuss my experience with getting the Arrays to sound the way they do at a later date. However, I suspect many can glean their own impressions knowing I only used the McIntosh MC402 and the Marantz amps. The latter amp does it all-in my opinion. Thanks for the answers do far!

[tom1040]

It's nice to see some of these companies learning that it isn't all about watts. I guess you're finding that out too.


Yes. However, until I bought these speakers, I did not have a clue-none. I was ignorant of most everything audio. I still am in a lot of the technology as well as other areas. But I CAN read I do try to understand as time marches on. The thought that a 400 WPC McIntosh amp could have an issue with these speakers never occured to me. The Mac does perform quite well with the S/2600's, however. I guess it does depend on matching up components that meet the needs of the speaker. I got very lucky buying those Marantz monblocks without hearing them. I saw the specs, read a couple reviews, asked some questions to people smarter in this area and wound up with what I presume to be the last amp(and preamp) that I will need for a long time.

Another snapshot of what a someone had to say about them;


While developing the MA-9S2, Marantz looked at the internals of modern speakers and realized that the large magnetic circuits along with sophisticated crossover networks can, at times, present large back EMF conditions as well as introduce complex reactive loads that the output of power amplifiers have to handle. These conditions place exceptionally large transient current capability demands on the power amplifier. In consideration of these conditions, the MA9-S2 is capable of supplying more than150 Amps of Peak Current in short but adequate bursts, from a power supply that features a choke input and a double-shielded, low noise toroidal transformer.
The toroid power transformer relies on a newly-developed "dual hemisphere" design with acoustical isolation augmented by silicon steel and a damped aluminum case. This greatly reduces internal vibration and sets the stage for finer resolution of sonic nuances. Shottky barrier diodes provide rectification for the power supply for the voltage amplification stage to eliminate subtle ripples that can negatively impact overall clarity. Finally, the storage capacitor bank, so important for the current amplification stage, is 50% larger than that used in the S1 for even more prodigious, yet superbly, controlled bass response.

[Robh3606]

I am using an Crown PS400 to power my clones. No bass control issues with the Crown.

Rob:)

[4313B]

While developing the MA-9S2, Marantz looked at the internals of modern speakers and realized that the large magnetic circuits along with sophisticated crossover networks can, at times, present large back EMF conditions as well as introduce complex reactive loads that the output of power amplifiers have to handle. These conditions place exceptionally large transient current capability demands on the power amplifier. In consideration of these conditions, the MA9-S2 is capable of supplying more than150 Amps of Peak Current in short but adequate bursts, from a power supply that features a choke input and a double-shielded, low noise toroidal transformer.
The toroid power transformer relies on a newly-developed "dual hemisphere" design with acoustical isolation augmented by silicon steel and a damped aluminum case. This greatly reduces internal vibration and sets the stage for finer resolution of sonic nuances. Shottky barrier diodes provide rectification for the power supply for the voltage amplification stage to eliminate subtle ripples that can negatively impact overall clarity. Finally, the storage capacitor bank, so important for the current amplification stage, is 50% larger than that used in the S1 for even more prodigious, yet superbly, controlled bass response. In other words, someone who used to work for H/K went to work for Marantz. :rotfl:

Spin is pretty funny though. In this case "modern speaker" means any JBL 4-inch coiled driver manufactured anytime in the past sixty some years.

These amps do look nice though. Marantz was my very first brand.

[Mr. Widget]

I've used a number of amps... a vintage GAS Son of Ampzilla (80wpc), a Mark Levinson No 532 (400wpc), a Pass Labs XA30.5 (30wpc), a Halo A21 (250wpc), and currently a Hafler 9505 (250wpc). At one point I even had a pair of Atma Sphere OTL tube amps (100wpc) in here... no control at all, but the mids and highs were a real joy.

First off I'll say that these speakers do present an issue on the bottom end with some amps, but I would also say that they are resolving enough to allow you to appreciate the different sonics of amps in general... back in the day, remembering our dear friend Julian Hirsch, there were so many issues with most loudspeakers that you were hard pressed to hear a difference between two properly working amps.

I am not currently using the Haflers because I feel they are the best choice, though they are quite nice... excellent control of the bass and acceptable sonics up top... no I am using them because they are the best compromise of what I have at home at the moment. My overall favorite of the amps above was the little class A Pass Labs amp. Excellent control and a fabulous sound in the mids and highs... though it really wasn't quite enough power. I do think 200 wpc or better is required at least for the playback levels I like.

In our showroom we had a similar bass control issue with the Everests. We found the bass to be quite full of "bass bloom" with the Bryston 28BSST² (1000 wpc) and it wasn't much better with the Mark Levinson No 433 (200wpc). We tried the Halo A21 (250wpc) and were impressed with the improved bass, enough for us to go upstream and we picked up a pair of the Halo JC-1s (400wpc)... these amps operate in class A for the first 25 watts have tons of current capability. The bass is extremely well behaved and the rest of the spectrum is detailed yet silky smooth. I'm considering getting a pair for my system. The down side is they are big, heavy, and produce a fair amount of heat... in standby they draw 250 watts each. Oh, and they are not inexpensive either... at $9K a pair. :banghead:


Widget

[tom1040]

In other words, someone who used to work for H/K went to work for Marantz. :rotfl:

Spin is pretty funny though. In this case "modern speaker" means any JBL 4-inch coiled driver manufactured anytime in the past sixty some years.

These amps do look nice though. Marantz was my very first brand.



Actually, I think "modern speaker" in Marantz's view was the B & W 800D. From what I could gather, it meant they built this amp to be able to drive those speakers and drive them very well. Not just from a 'great bass' definition. These amps are made for home use-not road/club use. Perhaps they have a bit more 'culture' than others.;)

As a matter of fact, I really do not know how components are reviewed for the National rags or on-line publications, if they get kickbacks to recommend gear, but the quote was not from a Marantz representative-it was from someone who reviewed the amp and I think he may be well regarded in the audio world-but what do I know?

[ronaltronics]

I have run the Jbl Array 1400's with a Bryston 4bsst squared Amplifier, 7b sst squared mono blocks And 28b sst squared amplifiers and did not discover the bass Bloom mentioned above. I found the Bryston's to be one of the most linear amplifiers I have run on the Array 1400's.

Then again there slogan is "The first watt is as good as the last watt"

IMO the Brystons are fantastic, and I have run many other amplifiers on the 1400's.

[Mr. Widget]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I didn't mean to dump on Bryston... I like them too, but on the Everest I did not like the 28BSST² mono blocks. I haven't tried any Brystons on the 1400 Arrays.


Widget

[andywin]

I use Musical Fidelity 550k's

550W into 8 Ohms, just as it say's it says on the tin.

[tom1040]

I have never tried Bryston. However, some of you may remember that I purchased the Arrays used from James Tanner-Bryston executive. I posted a review(with his permission)on that thread. He used the 28SSTsquared mono blocks and from his chair, the Arrays sounded damn fine(apparently):).

A link for his review: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?27694-My-Project-1400-Array-s

[ronaltronics]

Most Bass issues are usually room related.

[Mr. Widget]

Most Bass issues are usually room related.Absolutely!

It amazes me how little consideration rooms get when they are the most important component next to the loudspeakers themselves... I would suggest a pair of average speakers in an amazing room will sound better than amazing speakers in a less than average room.



Widget

[tom1040]

54948



#Just kidding about the HK remark#

[4313B]

#Just kidding about the HK remark#That looks very nice!

[Titanium Dome]

It looks nice. :) How about a picture with the room lights off?

[tom1040]

It looks nice. :) How about a picture with the room lights off?


Why thank you, TD. I took some pics last night but forgot to bring the camera into work today. I will post some night pics later. The lights on the amp/preamp/cdp do turn off.

However, I do not think this system(at least the amps) meet your criterion of what you would buy?

Part of a quote from another thread;

" What I did not want:

expensive billet faceplate adding $$$$ to the price
a plethora of lights or illuminted meters or Cylon-inspired eyes
jewelry
I say this in jest, of course, as we all have different likes/dislikes. As a matter of fact, I miss those big blue meters from my McIntosh MC402. To each his own. Speaking of owning, I would love to have those K2S9900 speakers that grace your home. That would complete my quest. Maybe someday, somehow. I can dream, right?

[tom1040]

54959


Since the talk of bad rooms came up, I will share mine. I suspect it isn't good, however, right now and until someone helps me 'fix' it, it sounds very good-to me and others who have listened. I bet some of you are cringing at the site and lack of something or the effect of all that glass. So, I guess at some point in the future, I will have an 'upgrade' if I either correct any issues in this room-or I build that dedicated room.

However, as I indicated, it sounds damn nice-to me. I will take all suggestions/comments as I would like to have a starting point to plan 'adjustments' to the room. However, it will have to pass muster with my wife.:D

By the way, turned toward the window is a nine month old Persian-my wifes. Name of Puff. No, I did not name it. She is a damn cool cat though.

[4313B]

I think is looks great. Those Arrays fit in quite well.

[Mr. Widget]

Thanks for sharing!

Shame about that name... oh well, what can you do. ;)

Looks a little tight in there, but basically the geometry looks right. You might want to pile a couple of quilts on that table and see how that affects the imaging and timbral balance of voices.


Widget

[moparfan]

Try finding a used a few years old Onkyo 886 pre-pro and try out Audessey Multi XT, or something else with full-range room correction. Should run you about $600. You have great equipment but with the 1400 Array and Array sub there is very likely severe room issues affecting the sound.




"Since the talk of bad rooms came up, I will share mine. I suspect it isn't good, however, right now and until someone helps me 'fix' it, it sounds very good-to me and others who have listened. I bet some of you are cringing at the site and lack of something or the effect of all that glass. So, I guess at some point in the future, I will have an 'upgrade' if I either correct any issues in this room-or I build that dedicated room.

However, as I indicated, it sounds damn nice-to me. I will take all suggestions/comments as I would like to have a starting point to plan 'adjustments' to the room. However, it will have to pass muster with my wife.:D

By the way, turned toward the window is a nine month old Persian-my wifes. Name of Puff. No, I did not name it. She is a damn cool cat though."

[DavidF]

Looks quite comfortable whatever might be playing. I have the same concerns as Widget about that coffee table, of all things. Maybe some more fluffy cats are needed.

No cats in my room but if that black chair were mine I would be constantly finding one or two dachshunds curled up in it. Sometimes sneeking in between flips of vinyl disc.

[Mr. Widget]

Try finding a used a few years old Onkyo 886 pre-pro and try out Audessey Multi XT, or something else with full-range room correction. Should run you about $600. You have great equipment but with the 1400 Array and Array sub there is very likely severe room issues affecting the sound. :eek:

No, no, no!!!!

What might be an improvement in a HT is certainly not in a 2 channel set up of this caliber.


Widget

[tom1040]

:eek:

No, no, no!!!!

What might be an improvement in a HT is certainly not in a 2 channel set up of this caliber.


Widget


I think I agree with you to a degree, although I need more information on the piece of gear I am thinking about. A McIntosh MEN220. Some type of 'room correction system'-I think dedicated for two channel setups. On another, mostly Mac forum, they discuss the numerous pros about this gear, however, from the limited time I have spent there recently, they have fallen out of favor for a few....and it is starting to snowball a little bit.

As it stands, I am leaning toward a dedicated room and no new equipment. Or a new car.;)

[1audiohack]

:eek:No, no, no!!!!Widget


I'll second that.

[tom1040]

At the time I purchased my Arrays I think there were a handful that had either bought them or made them(most, it seems, made them better with upgraded parts?). Still, there must be a few more lurking. Perhaps not just the amps-what does your system consist of in terms of the rest of the gear?

Just curious. :bouncy::bouncy:

[moparfan]

But there is really no way you can be close to having an accurate portrayal of the music, as enjoyable as it might be. Anyway, this discussion starts wars on other forums and I have no wish to do that here.


:eek:

No, no, no!!!!

What might be an improvement in a HT is certainly not in a 2 channel set up of this caliber.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

But there is really no way you can be close to having an accurate portrayal of the music, as enjoyable as it might be. Anyway, this discussion starts wars on other forums and I have no wish to do that here.

No desire to start a war, and on one level your suggestion makes complete sense, but in my experience the sonic damage done by all but the most extreme pre/pros is far greater than the possible improvement in a simple two channel system. We can discuss the pros and cons at length in an appropriate thread if you'd like.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

At the time I purchased my Arrays I think there were a handful that had either bought them of made them(most, it seems, made them better with upgraded parts?). Still, there must be a few more lurking. Perhaps not just the amps-what does your system consist of in terms of the rest of the gear?

Just curious. :bouncy::bouncy:

Current system... factory 1400 Arrays, Hafler 9505, Marantz Model 7(c), Bryston BDA-1, Wadia i170 transport, iPod playing lossless redbook files.


Widget

[Mike F]

54959


Since the talk of bad rooms came up, I will share mine. I suspect it isn't good, however, right now and until someone helps me 'fix' it, it sounds very good-to me and others who have listened. I bet some of you are cringing at the site and lack of something or the effect of all that glass. So, I guess at some point in the future, I will have an 'upgrade' if I either correct any issues in this room-or I build that dedicated room.

However, as I indicated, it sounds damn nice-to me. I will take all suggestions/comments as I would like to have a starting point to plan 'adjustments' to the room. However, it will have to pass muster with my wife.:D

By the way, turned toward the window is a nine month old Persian-my wifes. Name of Puff. No, I did not name it. She is a damn cool cat though.

If it`s not broken, don`t fix it! Sure there are all sorts of room tweaking you can do but consider yourself fortunate to have such a nice system in what seems to be a very comfortable setting, not having to chase the elusive ideal acoustic environment.
Just enjoy it!

[andywin]

Although I use MF 550K's to drive my Array's, I have tried a friends Conrad Johnson premier 8 valve/tube amps. They were very nice lacked the control over the bass that the SS amps had.

Although we have had this discussion of the forum before, I think it's due to a speaker load mis match with the tube amps. SS amps cope with it much better. Although the quoted soecs are 8 Ohm, when phase angle it taken into account things look a little different. The BIG B&W speakers have a similar characteristic and receive reviews not dissimilar to the Arrays. Both are thought of as remarkable speakers.

The Audio Reserch reference 300 & 600 amps may provide better control as they have a succession of output taps right down to 1 Ohm. I've neaver heard them in a system but from the specs they look to be awesome. Probably cost an awesome amount too.


54963

[tom1040]

It looks nice. :) How about a picture with the room lights off?


A different, darker view and one with a frontal of my wifes cat.:o:

5496454965

[tom1040]

Current system... factory 1400 Arrays, Hafler 9505, Marantz Model 7(c), Bryston BDA-1, Wadia i170 transport, iPod playing lossless redbook files.


Widget


Nice. I am curious how that Marantz 7(c) sounds compared to the newer pre's avaliable today? Or perhaps there is no 'sound' - It just works..:dont-know:

[tom1040]

If it`s not broken, don`t fix it! Sure there are all sorts of room tweaking you can do but consider yourself fortunate to have such a nice system in what seems to be a very comfortable setting, not having to chase the elusive ideal acoustic environment.
Just enjoy it!

Thanks Mike! I am! Since I don't know what, if any thing is 'wrong' in the room, I am enjoying the hell out of it.

[Mr. Widget]

Nice. I am curious how that Marantz 7(c) sounds compared to the newer pre's avaliable today? Or perhaps there is no 'sound' - It just works..:dont-know:Other than the spelling of the name and the font there is nothing in common between this old preamp and yours.

I won't pretend the old Marantz is the best pre ever... but it is damned fine, and I just love it's vintage coolness. I've had a few pres both tube and solid state that are a bit nicer (more detailed, a bigger and or deeper soundstage, a bit more wow) and a bit quieter, but I am reasonably happy with it's sonics and just love using it.


Widget

[Mr. Widget]

Pulled the Hafler and went back to my old stand by... my trusty GAS Son of Ampzilla. The subtle change sparks the aural excitement like adding a bit of spice to a dish. I think I'm beginning to get the cable thing. Make a small change, and your interest level is sparked up a notch. But I digress...

Back to the question at hand... this amp has ample current, damping factor etc., but is not a suitable substitute for a welding power source. Bass sounds pretty damned good and the mids and highs are just a bit sweeter than with the big Hafler.


Widget

[VJunction]

I just picked up a pair of Array 1000. I'm using a Audio Research Ref 75 and I think it is a great match.

[DavidF]

I just picked up a pair of Array 1000. I'm using a Audio Research Ref 75 and I think it is a great match.

Ah-ha, I read about your system here 'bouts...

I recently bought a Van Alstine Ultravalve tube amp. Works surprisingly well with my ersatz 1400 Arrays. Haven't pushed it to clipping but it does sound lively and detailed but for low bass taughtness.

[VJunction]

Ah-ha, I read about your system here 'bouts...

I recently bought a Van Alstine Ultravalve tube amp. Works surprisingly well with my ersatz 1400 Arrays. Haven't pushed it to clipping but it does sound lively and detailed but for low bass taughtness.

Not sure what the EDPR graph shows for the Array 1000's but sonically seem to hear no limitation with the low end on mine with the ref 75. I'm using the 8 ohm taps as well. Had a Pass Labs X-250 that I used with my last pair of speakers (Dunlavy). Also used the AR Ref 75 on the Dunavy's so I know that combination. Do not know how the Pass would have sounded on the Array 1000's. However I can say that the low end of from the Ref 75 sounded more natural then the Pass.

[tom1040]

Has anyone tried McIntosh amps on the 1400's?

So I am thinking of a change up for sh!ts and giggles only. Since I have the two systems I would like to try something different. McIntosh MC601's are currently with 4365 speakers. Thinking of trying them with the 1400's and the Marantz with the 4365's. Last Mac amp I tried with the Array's was a MC402 and I did not like the bass response-highs were great. Curious if the add'l 200 watts and different design would have a significant positive impact.......:dont-know:

I understand the concept of actually CHANGING the amps out to see for myself but, since they are on different floors of the house AND my spinal stenosis, I would prefer to get an idea from someone whom may have experience already.

Thank you.

[JoeNelis]

Has anyone tried McIntosh amps on the 1400's?

So I am thinking of a change up for sh!ts and giggles only. Since I have the two systems I would like to try something different. McIntosh MC601's are currently with 4365 speakers. Thinking of trying them with the 1400's and the Marantz with the 4365's. Last Mac amp I tried with the Array's was a MC402 and I did not like the bass response-highs were great. Curious if the add'l 200 watts and different design would have a significant positive impact.......:dont-know:

I understand the concept of actually CHANGING the amps out to see for myself but, since they are on different floors of the house AND my spinal stenosis, I would prefer to get an idea from someone whom may have experience already.

Thank you.

Hi Tom, i use a Mcintosh mc 352 on thr jbl's with twin nd 1400's and to me it's the best bass i've heard period. lots of factors to maybe think of before buying something.


joe.