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johnaec
09-18-2004, 05:39 PM
I finally got the mic to use with the RTA portion of the DBX DR260 and just did a quick analysis of a 4628B Cabaret series centered at 1 meter, but didn't move it outside - I just had it sitting on a carpeted floor in a fairly absorbant room. It was too windy to do it outside pointing up today - I'll try that some other time and check the difference.

Anyway, here's the curve I got, (interpolating the ISO frequencies with the graph I had). The DBX mic has about a 1db curve up at 10K, then back to 0, or the high frequency might have come out a little flatter. The DBX RTA also starts at 25hz and ends at 16Khz, (I didn't graph 25hz - it just keeps falling). HF adjustment on the 4628B was at 0. With a little judicious EQ these sound pretty good, especially for what they are.

Zilch
09-18-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by johnaec
With a little judicious EQ these sound pretty good, especially for what they are. Yikes! DAMN good, I'd say, better than I expected, actually, within +/- 3 dB from 60 Hz up through the entire range.

Might kick the 2118 in a little lower than the spec'd 800 Hz, is all, or some lower mid boost, for them that want it. The transition at 3KHz looks smooth. They got it right with this combination of drivers, looks like. Needs sub for home use, is all, as we already knew.

So, tell us this: How are they working for you in performance reinforcement?

Thank you very much for measuring these. The more controlled open air test will only look better, I'm betting!

johnaec
09-19-2004, 10:15 AM
Originally posted by Zilch
So, tell us this: How are they working for you in performance reinforcement?'Haven't had occasion yet to use them live. I can pack the little 12" 2-ways we've been using in my car - I need to start looking for a cheap van/wagon to move the bigger stuff around...

John

paragon
09-19-2004, 11:40 AM
Great,
Absolutely flat and that`s an PA Speaker !!
What will you do with this, Zilch ?

Regards
Eckhard

johnaec
09-19-2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by paragon
Absolutely flat and that`s an PA Speaker !!
Well, I don't know if I'd call that absolutely flat - those green line are 3db divisions - the cyan are 1db. 'Still pretty good, and easy to EQ.

John

Zilch
09-19-2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by paragon
What will you do with this, Zilch ? http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3131

I've got a couple of pairs of them, and always liked how they sound. So, I bought this pair to recondition and repackage. With the 2118 cone midrange, they were an anomaly among the sound reinforcement (PA) products.

I'm not sure if I'll rebuild these cabinets in a friendlier form with mirror imaging, or go with something more like the Gold Sound box referenced there, maybe offsetting the mid and high, with a "Tower" form factor.

Trolling for suggestions here, actually. [Hoping Widget and others will help with the cabinet design....]

The originals go dirt cheap around $300 a pair here of late (not for very much longer, perhaps,) for a super nice combination of drivers. Hell, you can hardly buy the tweeters alone for that.

John's RTA analysis confirms:

a) their minimalist crossover (a couple of caps and an L-pad) works surprisingly well, and,
b) they are well worthy of the repackaging effort.

A couple of E145 baskets just sold on eBay for about $30 each. The recone kit is available. The system is an inexpensive project with virtually guaranteed good outcome. They are very efficient (96 dB SPL sensitivity) and drive nicely without a huge amp investment. I'm running them on a 6230 now, but any quality receiver will likely do....

Figge
10-19-2004, 02:11 AM
The system is an inexpensive project with virtually guaranteed good outcome. They are very efficient (96 dB SPL sensitivity) and drive nicely without a huge amp investment.

dammit zilchter! now i have to "get hold" of these beuties! or :hmm: how about diy? the e-145:s are easy to find, probably the rest too...

gimme some drawings!:)


i guess this could be a fairly inexpensive, easy to do, and most of all a FUN speaker... bet those can do some damage inside a livingroom!

Zilch
10-19-2004, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Figge
dammit zilchster! now i have to "get hold" of these beauties! or :hmm: how about diy?Searching for what I posted previously, I've rambled on endlessly about these for months, now, apparently. :rolleyes:

Several different Cabaret models came in the same basic "4.5 cu.ft." cabinet. Interior dimensions are actually 28" H X 18" W X 14-7/8" deep. Bracing configuration varies depending upon drivers used.

The port for 4628B is 5-7/8" diameter X 5-1/2" deep. It might be worth doing a little analysis to see if a different (lower) tuning might be better for home use. Remember, these were made for sound reinforcement tuned around 40 Hz. WinISD says 11-1/4" long port for 32 Hz. Can't get "BIG" bass outta E145 in this size box without EQ, apparently, though room rise may be just enough.

You can get an idea of the driver layout from the pics in this thread. (http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3131&highlight=4628%2A+port) You know the drivers already: E145-8, 2118H, 2404H. 2118 is in a subenclosure.

The minimalist crossover is here. (http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4628B.pdf)

Consider also a tower design such as the Gold Sound Kit 11. (http://www.goldsound.net/kit11.htm) That box is substantially bigger, tho....

I'm hoping one or more of the cabinet gurus here take interest in this project and come up with a cool design for us. :)

[Also hoping that John can find the time to do his controlled response curves, too!]

johnaec
10-19-2004, 11:12 AM
Originally posted by Zilch
[Also hoping that John can find the time to do his controlled response curves, too!] Well, it's raining cats and dogs today over here in Marin...

John

Zilch
10-19-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Figge
I guess this could be a fairly inexpensive, easy to do, and most of all a FUN speaker... bet those can do some damage inside a livingroom! Yeah, trust the Zilchster on this, now: you'll want to put a Surgeon General's warning label on 'em.... :D

[Did somebody say "Doggie?"]

Figge
10-19-2004, 01:16 PM
ok whats the e145-8? same?

if so i get strange curves when calculating the 127L box.

Zilch
10-19-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Figge
ok whats the e145-8? same?
Yes. I was too quick to put the "H" there. :o

We recognize they may want supplemental subs....

mick c
02-06-2005, 11:45 PM
hey guys, I have two pair of 4628b's, I find them great. I use them with 1 2245 bass horn, and they sound great. Without the sub they are very light in the bottom end though. I may extend the ports and see what they are like as sugested in a previous post.
I substituted the 2118's for a pair of 2123h's in a seperate enclosure and the mids came alive. I plan on building some new bins to include the 2123h's. The inprovment in sound is worth it.

Zilch
06-05-2005, 11:12 PM
Finally got around to RTA measurement on my own 4628B's. This is in the R&D garage. :p

The 2404H's in these are "-1", meaning they have 2402 (075) diaphragms in them, presumably, for ruggedness in this sound reinforcement application, at the expense of VHF extension.

[Purdy good, tho.... :D ]

Mr. Widget
06-05-2005, 11:36 PM
Kind of different... due to different speakers? ...due to different rooms? ...due to different measuring techniques? ... due to different measuring equipment?

Widget

Zilch
06-05-2005, 11:40 PM
Kind of different... due to different speakers? ...due to different rooms? ...due to different measuring techniques? ... due to different measuring equipment?Yup. All that. John was gonna do his outside. Lemme read again to see if he actually did....

Nope. Inside, on carpet. On their backs with mic suspended above. Mine are just stacked in garage, mic in front about 1M. :)

I'm seein' them as similar, actually. Big climb at 1 kHz, peaks at 1.5, 4, and 10 kHz, linear rolloff above. Same animal, different playground....

Though not as well defined in the lower frequencies, see also 80, 130, 250, and 500 Hz.

[We don't have the quasi-anechoic measurement capabilities SOME good people here do.... ;) ]

hiQ
07-16-2006, 07:19 AM
Has anyone verified the crossover points of the 4628B? The cabaret brochure published 800hz and 3khz which is what was initially noted here.

Jammin' Jersey has a pair of the crossovers they describe as being at ("approximately") 400hz and 4khz.

The 4612B also uses the 2118 (a pair of Js) and 2404H (H-1) with a published cross likewise at 3khz. It was noted in another post that this is actually more like 4500 to 5khz. I have a pair of these crossovers and they do indeed seem to cross around 5khz.

My question is has anyone checked the 4628B?

Thanks in advance. :)

Zilch
07-16-2006, 02:11 PM
I have never determined the crossover points of 4628B, but I could, I suppose, if I knew how.
The 4612B also uses the 2118 (a pair of Js) and 2404H (H-1) with a published cross likewise at 3khz. It was noted in another post that this is actually more like 4500 to 5khz. I have a pair of these crossovers and they do indeed seem to cross around 5khz.How did you determine the crossover point?

hiQ
07-16-2006, 06:34 PM
I have never determined the crossover points of 4628B, but I could, I suppose, if I knew how.How did you determine the crossover point?

Hello - I used the word 'seemed' rather than 'determined' for my own action which is entirely subjective and empirical. I used a signal generator and simply tried to observe the equal point between two drivers. Certainly not perfect which is why I used the word 'seemed'. It does not 'seem' to be near 3khz (I am referring to the 4612B).

The word I used for my query was 'verified', which I think suggests something more scientific, this inasmuch as I find myself in the good company of some with considerable expertise.

I was hoping someone would tell me because of the discrepancy in the brochure vis a vis the report of the vendor I cited.

Brochures have been known to be oblivious to engineering facts.

My initiation to the thought that the crossover of the 4612 was something other than the published version is found at http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5305&highlight=crossover+impedance where GordonW brought the subject up. He was citing the numbers which certainly 'seems' more scientific than my approach.

Mr. Zilch in his kind reply to a query in that thread suggested as one option the 4628 and that led me to the vendor who reported the variation.

Everyone 'seems' to concur the 2404 needs to cross higher than 3khz (even though the brochure says 3K), and Mr. Zilch thought that the 2118 could cross lower than 800hz ('Might kick the 2118 in a little lower than the spec'd 800 Hz') although that might have been more a suggestion than an observation.

I am still trying to work out something for a 2202H, 104H & 2404 combination and very much lower than 800hz would probably not be healthy for the 104H.

There you have everything that I know. I used the words 'seemed' and 'verified'. The brochure says 800hz and 3Khz but a commercial vendor says 400hz and 4khz. :)

Zilch
07-16-2006, 09:23 PM
I've found JBL tech sheet info is usually good to two decimal places.

800 Hz and 3 kHz looks like what it is.

Nearfield measurements of the three drivers below (all playing).

Port's next to 2118 and 2404. I stuffed it, but there's still leakage.

Don't know why this 2118's dying at 2 kHz. Kinda looks like a phase hole.

Indeed, the mid and tweeter are wired out-of-phase, but that shouldn't matter nearfield.

Second unit, same deal, so nothing seems FUBAR here.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2118.pdf

Anybody have the original that can tell us what the legend in the FR curve says?

45° off-axis response shown falling off above 1+ kHz there?

In any case, 13.5 uf into 8 Ohms translates to something just under 1 kHz, and 2.5 uF with 0.4 mH is up around 4.5 kHz, both depending upon the actual driver impedance, but it's the acoustic response what counts, shown in the measurements, i.e. how the filter performs with the particular drivers in the total design package.

It's a little tough reading the values in the schematic, tho:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4628B.pdf

Looks like 3.0 uF changed to 2.5 uF in the "B" version, raising the highpass frequency to the tweeter a bit.

I wouldn't pay actual money for those crossovers; they barely qualify. Woofer plays full range, substantially overlapping the mid. ACK!

[This has been a Zilchster stream-of-consciousness presentation.... :p ]

hiQ
07-17-2006, 09:05 AM
"Zilchster stream-of-consciousness presentation" appreciation response placeholder text. :)

More later. Thank you!

niconoise
12-12-2006, 11:55 AM
For a nominal 8 ohm voice coil with 13.5 uf I get a 1472 hz high pass to the 2118, not 800 as the spec says.
For a 5.5 ohm voice coil (= dc resistance of 2118h) I get a 2141 hz high pass.
Am I doing something wrong?
I am trying to calculate the inductor value to rolloff the E145 and 2118. Presumably the E145 rolloff should match the 2118 rollon. Similarly for the 2118/2404.

sa660
12-18-2006, 03:41 PM
The E145 was used in one of JBL statement loudspeaker.
The Everest DD55000

niconoise
12-29-2006, 08:52 AM
The 4628 literature says the E145/2118 crossover is 800hz. The nominal impedance of the 2118h is 8 ohms, 5.5 ohms dc, and 6.2 ohms minimum. I cannot calculate a 800 hz crossover with a 13.5 uf capacitor. Is the literature wrong? Is the 2118r really not coming in until 2k?

martin_wu99
10-18-2010, 08:53 AM
I've found JBL tech sheet info is usually good to two decimal places.

800 Hz and 3 kHz looks like what it is.

Nearfield measurements of the three drivers below (all playing).

Port's next to 2118 and 2404. I stuffed it, but there's still leakage.

Don't know why this 2118's dying at 2 kHz. Kinda looks like a phase hole.

Indeed, the mid and tweeter are wired out-of-phase, but that shouldn't matter nearfield.

Second unit, same deal, so nothing seems FUBAR here.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/2118.pdf

Anybody have the original that can tell us what the legend in the FR curve says?

45 off-axis response shown falling off above 1+ kHz there?

In any case, 13.5 uf into 8 Ohms translates to something just under 1 kHz, and 2.5 uF with 0.4 mH is up around 4.5 kHz, both depending upon the actual driver impedance, but it's the acoustic response what counts, shown in the measurements, i.e. how the filter performs with the particular drivers in the total design package.

It's a little tough reading the values in the schematic, tho:

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4628B.pdf

Looks like 3.0 uF changed to 2.5 uF in the "B" version, raising the highpass frequency to the tweeter a bit.

I wouldn't pay actual money for those crossovers; they barely qualify. Woofer plays full range, substantially overlapping the mid. ACK!

[This has been a Zilchster stream-of-consciousness presentation.... :p ]
Mr.Zilch,
how to re-tool 4628B's crossover and make it more suitable for home HIFI use?

Thanks so much
Martin wu

toddalin
10-18-2010, 10:11 AM
The originals go dirt cheap around $300 a pair here of late (not for very much longer, perhaps,) for a super nice combination of drivers. Hell, you can hardly buy the tweeters alone for that.



These are/can be a steal.

I sold three for $500 with professional road cases included (one needed the 8" and tweeter but all other components worked fine).

Zilch
10-18-2010, 07:17 PM
Mr.Zilch,
how to re-tool 4628B's crossover and make it more suitable for home HIFI use?We never pursued it.

Today, I'd start active with DCX2496, measurements, and listening to determine an appropriate transfer function, then passive crossover design software to implement it, and finally, voice the the outcome.... :blink:

martin_wu99
10-20-2010, 12:46 AM
We never pursued it.

Today, I'd start active with DCX2496, measurements, and listening to determine an appropriate transfer function, then passive crossover design software to implement it, and finally, voice the the outcome.... :blink:
That sounds great! i'm looking forward to your big job.
Learning a lot from your thread,i bought 4628B,l love it so much,it sound so pure\clean that no other JBL speakers can compare with when playing piano\guitar\saxphone and trumpet.you do a great found indeed!althoug lack of some low end. since then,i bought 4698B,it also sounds good as well. PRO SOUND AT HOME really!
but i want to make my 4628B and 4698B more smooth and soft,what should do?re-tool the crossover?using active crossover?
By the way,is there any other pro speakers can be used in home?which ones?somebody in CHINA using 4722\4725\4735\sp222 and 4719 at home!

best regards

Martin wu

Zilch
10-21-2010, 12:22 AM
That was actually a suggestion as to how YOU might proceed, as it is not likely I will further pursue this project anytime soon, my own more recent efforts being substantially committed to building 2-way designs.... :)

martin_wu99
10-22-2010, 01:25 AM
That was actually a suggestion as to how YOU might proceed, as it is not likely I will further pursue this project anytime soon, my own more recent efforts being substantially committed to building 2-way designs.... :)
Two way system?like 4691B?why?:confused::eek::banghead:

Mr. Widget
10-22-2010, 02:00 PM
Zilch, pick up a pair of Tannoy DC12i's... I saw them yesterday at a trade event. Looks like a formidable little HT speaker. With it's pulp cone and cloth surround it has a real old school look. At $1700 ea. they would be great in a moderately high end home theater.

Of course Zilch and many others here are equally into building the system rather than just buying a really good one.


Widget

Mr. Widget
10-22-2010, 05:17 PM
Of course Zilch and many others here are equally into building the system rather than just buying a really good one.That's barely in English... but I guess you got my meaning. :o:



I kind of lost interest when JBL said that was the last of the 1500AL's and 476Be's... :banghead:Yeah, I know what you mean.

In a couple of weeks I'll be popping down to Northridge for some dealer event... it'll be interesting how they choose to show off all of those empty cubicles and unused factory floor space.


Widget

Zilch
10-22-2010, 06:25 PM
Still plenty for us bottom-feeders:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=215536&page=28

Summary is here, but there's a bunch of stuff in-between, including data for 2452H-SL on PT-F95HF:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1667893#post1667893

I also snuck some H4338/2452H-SL data in on a different forum using a stock 800 Hz JBL Cinema Series crossover:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=19284506#post19284506

Mr. Widget
10-22-2010, 06:36 PM
Still plenty for us bottom-feeders:I think Scotty showed us once again life is too short not to go for the gusto.

Of course we should all make a point to have fun where ever we can find it.


Widget

Zilch
10-22-2010, 07:39 PM
There is no dearth of gusto in what I do; your 414Zs are here:

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?p=1668864#post1668864

4313B
10-23-2010, 07:33 AM
I deleted my posts after reading the entire thread.

Still plenty for us bottom-feeders:You guys just like to play with stuff and it appears to have no end game. There was a time when I couldn't get enough components to screw around with either. I definitely look forward to posts like John W's! :rotfl:

As far as I know you aren't lawyers.

I also snuck some H4338/2452H-SL data in on a different forum using a stock JBL Cinema Series crossover:Neato. I don't feel like joining that forum to look at the pictures though.

Some comments that jumped out at me:

I don't know if he actually said so himself, but H4338 is purported to be second only to Everest II in sonic quality.

The H4338 measures better than the H66000.

What drivers are run on them matters in that, of course: this is the best I can do right now, but it could likely be improved with Be diaphragms.

Yes, the drivers do matter. If the 3-inch driver doesn't work for you use the 4-inch instead. All those horns, H4338, H9800, H66000, H9900, H4365, 1400 Array, SAM1HF, 2344A are very nice. G.T. has mentioned numerous times that he prefers them vertical to horizontal.

The 2452H-SL with the Truextent should beat anything short of a TAD, 476Mg or 476Be.
The TAD is real expensive and the JBL's are unobtainable.

backing up a couple of posts, the 435al is the one used in the japanese 4338 in order to keep cost down?

The 4338 uses the 1500FE, 435AL, H4338 and 045Ti to make the intended price point. These drivers are roughly one third the cost of the Al and Be versions (I use the 1500AL, 476Be, H4338 and 045Be.)

The CAD files for the similar, smaller, H9800 are available, and clones in wood were made in Europe for ~$600 apiece, but they never got it "right" in the critical throat transition region. I do have a prototype of that one which measures well in comparison to the original, and should probably get my act together and make some of them....

The originals were $1000 a pair, and we can't get any more short of purchasing 4338s in Japan.

They were right around $1,500 a pair MSRP. They aren't economical like waveguides are.

I'll not be slicing an H4338 to do similar.

I tried to get a spare to do just that. It never happened. I guess the H9800 will have to do. That really shouldn't be a problem.



None of this really goes with the theme of this thread.

pos
10-23-2010, 08:23 AM
The CAD files for the similar, smaller, H9800 are available, and clones in wood were made in Europe for ~$600 apiece, but they never got it "right" in the critical throat transition region.Zilch, are you reffering to this (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?22839-modifications-on-a-H9800-clone&p=229298) issue with the mounting plate?

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=35214&stc=1&d=1226263590

Zilch
10-23-2010, 01:18 PM
Yes, basically.

I'm no expert on this, but I did at one time by Giskard's leave have both a factory H9800 and Widget's clone here to measure. The differences were very minor, and that data is posted on this forum somewhere. Widget is more familiar with the techincal aspects of the issue. I have never run Widget's clone using 2452H-SL.

Visually, H4338 is H9800 expanded in one dimension; by that, I mean the throat detail, as well. H4338 is two-piece, I presume to allow more precision molding in the undercut region at the throat.

I was surprised to see the results of the rough directivity measurements of H4338 I did in that Screen Array study; the horizontal dispersion appears to be narrower than I had assumed, which removes some of the questions I had about deploying it vertically such as others have done. I should take a closer look at that and post my findings. Anyone with CLIO, a lazy susan, and a protractor should be able to replicate any study I might undertake. We may still have an H9800 out here to measure for comparison, and Widget's clone, as well, of course.

If the H9800s are now considered "surplus" in the Project May program, we might be able to recruit Widget to slice one of those, do a scan, and make a precision mold. We did that with H2600 throats here at one time, casting them in pewter. I have another idea for a suitable H9800 casting material, which I did mention to him at one time.

As to off-topic, I doubt John would have minded (he knew full well what a blogger I am), but if an administrator wants to spin this discussion off into DIY, we might more appropriately continue it there.... :yes:

4313B
10-23-2010, 01:53 PM
I was surprised to see the results of the rough directivity measurements of H4338 I did in that Screen Array study; the horizontal dispersion appears to be narrower than I had assumed, which removes some of the questions I had about deploying it vertically such as others have done.G.T. is pretty adamant about running it vertical but I have yet to come up with a final design I like. My current boxes are merely 4338 style boxes without the top section for the UHF. The top of the box ends at the top of the H4338. They make for utterly outstanding 4430 replacements and I'm not missing the E2. Well, ok, that's a lie, I love the way the E2 looks...
If the H9800s are now considered "surplus" in the Project May program, we might be able to recruit Widget to slice one of those, do a scan, and make a precision mold.They've been sitting on a shelf for years patiently waiting for eight precision modules to be completed... :banghead:
As to off-topic, I doubt John would have minded (he knew full well what a blogger I am), but if an administrator wants to spin this discussion off into DIY, we might more appropriately continue it there.... :yes:I meant that this has nothing to do with 4628B's.

martin_wu99
10-25-2010, 03:22 AM
G.T. is pretty adamant about running it vertical but I have yet to come up with a final design I like. My current boxes are merely 4338 style boxes without the top section for the UHF. The top of the box ends at the top of the H4338. They make for utterly outstanding 4430 replacements and I'm not missing the E2. Well, ok, that's a lie, I love the way the E2 looks...They've been sitting on a shelf for years patiently waiting for eight precision modules to be completed... :banghead:I meant that this has nothing to do with 4628B's.
Then who is willing to do something with 4628B?:eek::banghead:

Robh3606
10-25-2010, 03:51 AM
Then who is willing to do something with 4628B?:eek::banghead:

If I were you I would use the drivers but ditch the original crossovers and crossover points. I would use the 2118 lower and then cross it over at say 1.5K to a 1" compression driver on a good horn. Add the 2404 if I couldn't get the top octave extension I wanted or wasn't satisfied with it. In that design both the 2118 and 2404 are used to the max limits.The 2118 on the high side and the max lower limit on the 2404. For home application I would not use either driver that way.

Rob:)

martin_wu99
10-28-2010, 09:10 AM
If I were you I would use the drivers but ditch the original crossovers and crossover points. I would use the 2118 lower and then cross it over at say 1.5K to a 1" compression driver on a good horn. Add the 2404 if I couldn't get the top octave extension I wanted or wasn't satisfied with it. In that design both the 2118 and 2404 are used to the max limits.The 2118 on the high side and the max lower limit on the 2404. For home application I would not use either driver that way.

Rob:)
Thank for your suggestion!pls look at the pics:

martin_wu99
10-28-2010, 09:13 AM
More pics:

martin_wu99
10-28-2010, 09:30 AM
If I were you I would use the drivers but ditch the original crossovers and crossover points. I would use the 2118 lower and then cross it over at say 1.5K to a 1" compression driver on a good horn. Add the 2404 if I couldn't get the top octave extension I wanted or wasn't satisfied with it. In that design both the 2118 and 2404 are used to the max limits.The 2118 on the high side and the max lower limit on the 2404. For home application I would not use either driver that way.

Rob:)
For home application I would not use either driver that way.
Why?:confused::confused::confused:

Robh3606
10-28-2010, 09:04 PM
Read this thread from the beginning

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?812-4699b-Cabaret-Series

To sum it up these are PA boxes. If you like them as is great. The have good drivers that with different crossovers and crossover points can be made into a system more suitable for home use. Take a look at the crossover schematic for the 4628. It's minimal at best. I would not use a 2404 down to 3K becasue it will get harsh sounding. I wouldn't run a 2118 that close to it's upper breakdown region as another example for the same reason. The drivers will work that way but you can make a better sounding system by limiting how far up the 2118 goes and how low the 2404 runs.

Rob:)

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/4628%20Network.pdf

martin_wu99
11-02-2010, 11:13 PM
Read this thread from the beginning

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?812-4699b-Cabaret-Series

To sum it up these are PA boxes. If you like them as is great. The have good drivers that with different crossovers and crossover points can be made into a system more suitable for home use. Take a look at the crossover schematic for the 4628. It's minimal at best. I would not use a 2404 down to 3K becasue it will get harsh sounding. I wouldn't run a 2118 that close to it's upper breakdown region as another example for the same reason. The drivers will work that way but you can make a better sounding system by limiting how far up the 2118 goes and how low the 2404 runs.

Rob:)

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/4628%20Network.pdf
Thank you,Rob!
In fact,i've read almost all the threads that about 46 series, some friends of mine have listened to my 4628B,They think it quite good and even can be compared with 4344.
The only question is how to improve it?Maybe don't let 2118 goes so far up and 2404 so low down is a good ideal.:applaud:

Martin

martin_wu99
11-03-2010, 02:44 AM
Read this thread from the beginning

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?812-4699b-Cabaret-Series

To sum it up these are PA boxes. If you like them as is great. The have good drivers that with different crossovers and crossover points can be made into a system more suitable for home use. Take a look at the crossover schematic for the 4628. It's minimal at best. I would not use a 2404 down to 3K becasue it will get harsh sounding. I wouldn't run a 2118 that close to it's upper breakdown region as another example for the same reason. The drivers will work that way but you can make a better sounding system by limiting how far up the 2118 goes and how low the 2404 runs.

Rob:)

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/4628%20Network.pdf
The crossover points are 800hz and 3Khz.

martin_wu99
11-06-2010, 02:27 PM
Read this thread from the beginning

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?812-4699b-Cabaret-Series

To sum it up these are PA boxes. If you like them as is great. The have good drivers that with different crossovers and crossover points can be made into a system more suitable for home use. Take a look at the crossover schematic for the 4628. It's minimal at best. I would not use a 2404 down to 3K becasue it will get harsh sounding. I wouldn't run a 2118 that close to it's upper breakdown region as another example for the same reason. The drivers will work that way but you can make a better sounding system by limiting how far up the 2118 goes and how low the 2404 runs.

Rob:)

http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Network%20Schematics/4628%20Network.pdf
But what's the proper crossover points for 2404 and 2118?
Is 7K for 2404? 1k for 2118? then how to combine them(make them work together)?
Thank you!
Martin

pos
11-06-2010, 03:55 PM
put a compression driver and horn on top of your cabinet, and cross it between 1.5khz and 8khz! :bouncy:

cosmos
11-06-2010, 07:55 PM
My experience with 4628B has been limited. The first pair I found didn't even make it home with me.. I stopped at a local audio meet and another guy just had to have them.. My second pair were scavenged immediately for the E-145 drivers, which I really like the mid-bass from.

About a week ago, I managed to pick up a third pair. I just set these set up in my workshop on top of 4842 Subwoofers ( twin 2245H). These seem to be a very appealing setup. However, I am really tempted to take this a step further by adding in a pair of 2441 or 2425 on a wood horn in lieu of the 2118.

How high can we take the E-145 in this setup? By listening to it, it seems to be pretty competent to 1.5K, but I'd likely cross to the 2441 at about 800 but would like to go up to 1.2K to 1.5K for the 2425. The 2425 would have an advantage of likely being able to go on up without a tweeter.. Surely someone has tested the E145 for upper end extension.

martin_wu99
11-08-2010, 12:12 AM
put a compression driver and horn on top of your cabinet, and cross it between 1.5khz and 8khz! :bouncy:
I'v though of it already!
I have some choises below:
1.Changing the crossover of 2404 and 2118,cut off the sound upper the 800HZ of E145.
2.Replacing the 2118 with 2123,then find the proper crossover points.
3.Replacing the 2118 with 2426,using DD6600''s crossover.(66000:2405\2420\E145)
4.Adding 4691 with 4628, uing E140 as mid-range driver,then the system will be consist of 2404\2426\2118(can be disconected)\E140\E145. what's the different between E140 and E145?can E140 be used in this way?
my goal is to make my 4628B sound better through some easier method!
Your opinion will be highly appreciated!
Thank you
Martin

martin_wu99
11-08-2010, 12:21 AM
My experience with 4628B has been limited. The first pair I found didn't even make it home with me.. I stopped at a local audio meet and another guy just had to have them.. My second pair were scavenged immediately for the E-145 drivers, which I really like the mid-bass from.

About a week ago, I managed to pick up a third pair. I just set these set up in my workshop on top of 4842 Subwoofers ( twin 2245H). These seem to be a very appealing setup. However, I am really tempted to take this a step further by adding in a pair of 2441 or 2425 on a wood horn in lieu of the 2118.

How high can we take the E-145 in this setup? By listening to it, it seems to be pretty competent to 1.5K, but I'd likely cross to the 2441 at about 800 but would like to go up to 1.2K to 1.5K for the 2425. The 2425 would have an advantage of likely being able to go on up without a tweeter.. Surely someone has tested the E145 for upper end extension.
It seems that E145 can go much higher than your expecting.all deponds on 2441 and 2425's optimum range.

martin_wu99
11-08-2010, 12:40 AM
My experience with 4628B has been limited. The first pair I found didn't even make it home with me.. I stopped at a local audio meet and another guy just had to have them.. My second pair were scavenged immediately for the E-145 drivers, which I really like the mid-bass from.

About a week ago, I managed to pick up a third pair. I just set these set up in my workshop on top of 4842 Subwoofers ( twin 2245H). These seem to be a very appealing setup. However, I am really tempted to take this a step further by adding in a pair of 2441 or 2425 on a wood horn in lieu of the 2118.

How high can we take the E-145 in this setup? By listening to it, it seems to be pretty competent to 1.5K, but I'd likely cross to the 2441 at about 800 but would like to go up to 1.2K to 1.5K for the 2425. The 2425 would have an advantage of likely being able to go on up without a tweeter.. Surely someone has tested the E145 for upper end extension.
can not upload pics again:banghead: why?system no good?:confused:

pos
11-08-2010, 01:07 AM
3.Replacing the 2118 with 2426,using DD6600''s crossover.(66000:2405\2420\E145)
That would be the DD55000 (everset 1)

martin_wu99
11-08-2010, 02:05 AM
That would be the DD55000 (everset 1)
Yes,66000 is modern type.my writting fault.

martin_wu99
11-08-2010, 02:09 AM
That would be the DD55000 (everset 1)
everset?should be everest!:D
my English is poor,execuse me;)

pos
11-08-2010, 02:49 AM
Are you ready to use something like a DCX2496 (or better) for the crossover?
Also, are you ready to build new boxes?

And do you feel that your 4628 have enough bass on their own to be used without the 4699 ? Using both in the same time is not ideal. Maybe just using one (or several) subwoofer would be better.

martin_wu99
11-09-2010, 01:46 AM
Are you ready to use something like a DCX2496 (or better) for the crossover?
Also, are you ready to build new boxes?

And do you feel that your 4628 have enough bass on their own to be used without the 4699 ? Using both in the same time is not ideal. Maybe just using one (or several) subwoofer would be better.
Id like to have JBL m553 crossover.
I don't plan to build new boxes.
Yes,I think the 4628B lack of some low end.so i think two 15' bass drivers will make it better.my new plan is 4628+4691,using 3 way crossover,how do you think of the paln?
thank you!

pos
11-09-2010, 02:52 AM
If I were you, I would only keep the 4628B and sell the 4699 and 4691 and other cabaret speakers you might have.
The 4628B Is the only one that really has good component and can be converted to hifi use. I would use subwoofer(s) to assist under 80Hz (real subwoofers, not PA speakers from the cabaret serie)
I would discard the current passive filter and go fully active. The M533 is a good unit but a digital crossover like a DCX2496, together with some measurement gears, would give you more possibilities.

Then, you have to change something with the drivers if you want a really good sound, because neither the 2118H nor the 2404H-1 are really good at 3khz.

You have 3 choices:

1- remove the 2118H, close its opening, and put a big horn and compression driver on top of the cabinet. Crossovers could be something like 800Hz and 8khz. The horn could be something like a 2397 if you find one. You will need a big horn to reach 800Hz (the E145 is not that great higher than that)

2- keep the 2118H, and put a small horn on top of the cabinet, with a higher crossover, like 1200Hz and 8khz. A 2307/2308 could do the job. But then you will have a 4 way (plus subwoofers!) and the crossover will be difficult to deal with

3- remove the 2404H-1 (this is the -1 variant anyway: it does not go that high) and replace it by a small horn and compression driver that is able to go to 20khz. That would be the best option in my opinion. A JBL 2407 (or BMS 4540nd) and a the small PT waveguide from the JBL AC16 speaker (PT-B99HF-1). This is going to be a really inexpensive combo (the 2407 can be found on ebay US, and the horn can be had from JBL Pro and is something like 10$ each), and can sound very good. The crossover point with the 2118H would be around 2.5khz, and you would have to use the CD compensation function of the M553 (horn preemphasis)
So in the end that would be: E145 up to around 400Hz, 2118H from 400Hz to 2.5khz, 2407 from 2.5khz up to 20khz with CD compensation. That can be done with the M553, fully active.

Then you just have to add some subwoofers, preferably spread accross the room, and you will have a killer system.

martin_wu99
11-09-2010, 07:35 AM
If I were you, I would only keep the 4628B and sell the 4699 and 4691 and other cabaret speakers you might have.
The 4628B Is the only one that really has good component and can be converted to hifi use. I would use subwoofer(s) to assist under 80Hz (real subwoofers, not PA speakers from the cabaret serie)
I would discard the current passive filter and go fully active. The M533 is a good unit but a digital crossover like a DCX2496, together with some measurement gears, would give you more possibilities.

Then, you have to change something with the drivers if you want a really good sound, because neither the 2118H nor the 2404H-1 are really good at 3khz.

You have 3 choices:

1- remove the 2118H, close its opening, and put a big horn and compression driver on top of the cabinet. Crossovers could be something like 800Hz and 8khz. The horn could be something like a 2397 if you find one. You will need a big horn to reach 800Hz (the E145 is not that great higher than that)

2- keep the 2118H, and put a small horn on top of the cabinet, with a higher crossover, like 1200Hz and 8khz. A 2307/2308 could do the job. But then you will have a 4 way (plus subwoofers!) and the crossover will be difficult to deal with

3- remove the 2404H-1 (this is the -1 variant anyway: it does not go that high) and replace it by a small horn and compression driver that is able to go to 20khz. That would be the best option in my opinion. A JBL 2407 (or BMS 4540nd) and a the small PT waveguide from the JBL AC16 speaker (PT-B99HF-1). This is going to be a really inexpensive combo (the 2407 can be found on ebay US, and the horn can be had from JBL Pro and is something like 10$ each), and can sound very good. The crossover point with the 2118H would be around 2.5khz, and you would have to use the CD compensation function of the M553 (horn preemphasis)
So in the end that would be: E145 up to around 400Hz, 2118H from 400Hz to 2.5khz, 2407 from 2.5khz up to 20khz with CD compensation. That can be done with the M553, fully active.

Then you just have to add some subwoofers, preferably spread accross the room, and you will have a killer system.
Pos,thank you very much for your patience and detail suggestions:
1.I'm looking for JBL DSC260 processor,is this suitable for my 4628B system?
2.Can i replace the 2118 with 4691's 2426 and 2370(easy to get)?
3.I like the 2404H and the E series so much that i will not diacard it.
4.Which subwoofer is most suitable for my system?2245?2242?seems things becoming more complicated:banghead:
by the way,the 4628B's specifiction shows that the frequence range is 35hz-21.5hz
(-10db)?

pos
11-09-2010, 08:36 AM
You're welcome!

Yes the DSC260 will be perfect if you stick with 3 ways, but then you will also have to handle the subwoofer(s)...

The 2470 is not that good, and will not be able to go down to 800Hz in the first place.
If could be a solution in the 1.2khz-6khz range (the directivity is collapsing quite rapidely) if you keep the 2118H, but then you need a 4way crossover (DSC280 maybe?, or a pair of M553, or maybe some minidsp modules if you are ready for some DIY)

What horns do you have access to on your local market?

As for the subwoofers, it is a different problem, and an easier one to solve, once your mains are up and running.

martin_wu99
11-11-2010, 01:05 AM
You're welcome!

Yes the DSC260 will be perfect if you stick with 3 ways, but then you will also have to handle the subwoofer(s)...

The 2470 is not that good, and will not be able to go down to 800Hz in the first place.
If could be a solution in the 1.2khz-6khz range (the directivity is collapsing quite rapidely) if you keep the 2118H, but then you need a 4way crossover (DSC280 maybe?, or a pair of M553, or maybe some minidsp modules if you are ready for some DIY)

What horns do you have access to on your local market?

As for the subwoofers, it is a different problem, and an easier one to solve, once your mains are up and running.
Thank you so much!welcome to China and my homeland city: 3100 years old city-Xi'an!
1.My initial thought is to improve 4628B by simplest way(such as using active crossover without any drivers replacement)is this possible?which is the best crossover points?i want to make full use of 4628B.
2.the second idea is that in order to improve 4628B's subbass by using two 15' bass drivers,does this work?
3.which is the best way to upgrade 4628B?add 2407?replace 2118 with 2123 or 2425?
4.My 4628B's 2404 has no nameplate,how can i identify whether it is -1 or not?
sorry for so many questions.
I have JBL 4208.euro L80,but i like 4628B the best.it sounds some old cinema sound.
in fact, i don't like JBL modern production such as 4429\4338\4348 etc.they seems lack of some taste,they are just studio tools.
Doing some DIY not all about saving money,maybe just for some fun.if it is too difficult,i'll go buying second hand L300\4344 etc.
Thank you once more.

pos
11-11-2010, 06:47 AM
If you like the sound of the 4628B, then why not leave it as it is now?
You surely you could lead to a more hifi and refined sound with an active crossover and measurement gears (even with the same drivers complement), but maybe you will miss that old ciname sound that you like.

Why not just add some subbwoofers (spread across the room, not under the 4628's) to augment the bass and call it done?

Concerning the 2404, I think it is the '-1' variant in this model (but then it seems there are plenty of variants there also...). And it better be: the 3khz crossover point would be really low for a 2405 diaphragm. The only way to be sure would be to open it and check the diaphragm width.

If you insist on going active, and you are ready to do -lots of- measurements, I think the best two options are to add a horn on top to turn it into 4 way (a 2370 would do, but a 2397 would sure be cooler), or to replace the 2404 by a 2407 (http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PRO-2407H-1-EXIT-NEW-GENERATION-RING-RADIATOR-PR-/370455421478).
But then if you ultimately manage to get something as good as a 4348, you will be disappointed as you will miss that 80's sound ;)

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 12:36 AM
If you like the sound of the 4628B, then why not leave it as it is now?
You surely you could lead to a more hifi and refined sound with an active crossover and measurement gears (even with the same drivers complement), but maybe you will miss that old ciname sound that you like.

Why not just add some subbwoofers (spread across the room, not under the 4628's) to augment the bass and call it done?

Concerning the 2404, I think it is the '-1' variant in this model (but then it seems there are plenty of variants there also...). And it better be: the 3khz crossover point would be really low for a 2405 diaphragm. The only way to be sure would be to open it and check the diaphragm width.

If you insist on going active, and you are ready to do -lots of- measurements, I think the best two options are to add a horn on top to turn it into 4 way (a 2370 would do, but a 2397 would sure be cooler), or to replace the 2404 by a 2407 (http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PRO-2407H-1-EXIT-NEW-GENERATION-RING-RADIATOR-PR-/370455421478).
But then if you ultimately manage to get something as good as a 4348, you will be disappointed as you will miss that 80's sound ;)
Although i like 4628B so much,but I think its crossover is too simple,and even let the E145 go through,why?:confused:i think there maybe some room to improve 4628B.
But in fact,i have not any measurement gears:banghead:what can i do if i use a active crossover?:blink:
If i simplely crossover 4628B at 850hz and 7500hz like DD55000 ,can it work well?
can 2118 work so high?
best regards
Martin

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 04:42 AM
If you like the sound of the 4628B, then why not leave it as it is now?
You surely you could lead to a more hifi and refined sound with an active crossover and measurement gears (even with the same drivers complement), but maybe you will miss that old ciname sound that you like.

Why not just add some subbwoofers (spread across the room, not under the 4628's) to augment the bass and call it done?

Concerning the 2404, I think it is the '-1' variant in this model (but then it seems there are plenty of variants there also...). And it better be: the 3khz crossover point would be really low for a 2405 diaphragm. The only way to be sure would be to open it and check the diaphragm width.

If you insist on going active, and you are ready to do -lots of- measurements, I think the best two options are to add a horn on top to turn it into 4 way (a 2370 would do, but a 2397 would sure be cooler), or to replace the 2404 by a 2407 (http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PRO-2407H-1-EXIT-NEW-GENERATION-RING-RADIATOR-PR-/370455421478).
But then if you ultimately manage to get something as good as a 4348, you will be disappointed as you will miss that 80's sound ;)
I'm searching Chinese pro audio market these days and find a pair of 4726A(exact same with 4728AP and I725:confused:),its horn is 2344A and looks great,but the compressed driver is 2426J,16ohms version.Can i add 2344 to 4628B?then what should i do next?
Thank you.

pos
11-12-2010, 06:38 AM
Although i like 4628B so much,but I think its crossover is too simple,and even let the E145 go through,why?:confused:i think there maybe some room to improve 4628B.
But in fact,i have not any measurement gears:banghead:what can i do if i use a active crossover?:blink:
If i simplely crossover 4628B at 850hz and 7500hz like DD55000 ,can it work well?
can 2118 work so high?
best regards
Martin
Maybe the fact that the E145 runs without low pass filter is part of the reason why you love the sound of that speaker? The same principle is used in the L100 and the 4312 speakers, and people tend to grow accustomed to their sound and find other speakers dull sounding.

In any case, if you want to use the DD55000 crossover points (and entier network in fact) you will have to use the exact same drivers and horns, so the only things you could keep are the E145s. In any case, the 2118 will not be able to reach 7khz. Its directivity will colapse, and it will be full of breakups.

If you feel there are some area this speaker can be improved upon, you need to list them one by one and try to find a way to address them specifically. For example, the bass can easily be augmented with subwoofers. Are there other specific flaws, like harshness or coloration, that annoy you with this speaker?


I'm searching Chinese pro audio market these days and find a pair of 4726A(exact same with 4728AP and I725:confused:),its horn is 2344A and looks great,but the compressed driver is 2426J,16ohms version.Can i add 2344 to 4628B?then what should i do next?
Thank you.

The 2344/2426 is a killer combo, and can be used without the 2404. But you will need measurement gears anyway, even with active crossover.

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 07:36 AM
Maybe the fact that the E145 runs without low pass filter is part of the reason why you love the sound of that speaker? The same principle is used in the L100 and the 4312 speakers, and people tend to grow accustomed to their sound and find other speakers dull sounding.

In any case, if you want to use the DD55000 crossover points (and entier network in fact) you will have to use the exact same drivers and horns, so the only things you could keep are the E145s. In any case, the 2118 will not be able to reach 7khz. Its directivity will colapse, and it will be full of breakups.

If you feel there are some area this speaker can be improved upon, you need to list them one by one and try to find a way to address them specifically. For example, the bass can easily be augmented with subwoofers. Are there other specific flaws, like harshness or coloration, that annoy you with this speaker?



The 2344/2426 is a killer combo, and can be used without the 2404. But you will need measurement gears anyway, even with active crossover.
I don't konw what it will sound like if cut off 850hz upper of E145,maybe just a try.
Beside the low end, i also want to make 4628B more smooth and soft,is there any other mothed?Why Mark Gander design 4628B into this way?
I find out that 2118's range is 70hz-7Khz(3db),2404's range is 4khz-19khz(3db),then which point is the best point to connect them?
I'v just read a post that a french man add 2404 and 2123 to his 4430,so i think it will be better adding 2426+2344 to 4628B?
Thanks a lot.

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 07:46 AM
By the way,i can open the 'manage attachments' box,i can select files(pics),but i can not upload files,why? there are six pic files remains in the box(i uploaded before) and can not be deleted?
Thank you!

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 08:41 AM
Measured
sensitivity (SPL at I m (3.3 ft) with I W input. swept 500 Hz-2.5 kHz) shall be at least 97 dB on axis
and 94 dB 45 degrees off axis. As an indication of electromechanical conversion efficiency, the BI
factor shall be at least 11(H), 15(J) newtons per ampere. The half-space reference efficiency shall
be 2.1%. Usable frequency response shall extend from 70 Hz to 7 kHz. On-axis response,
measured at a distance of 1.8 m (6 ft) or more under free-field conditions. shall be 3 dB from
200 HZ to 4 kHz. Acoustic loading shall further extend the low frequency response.
Highest Recommended
Crossover Frequency: 3 kHz

from 2118 PDF

Maybe add 2425+2344 to 4628B and let it work on 3khz-7khz is a way, is that right?

pos
11-12-2010, 10:00 AM
1.5khz or so would be much better. You also need to match the horizontal directivity at the crossover point. The 2344 is 100 from 1khz up. The 2118 shall be 100 maybe around 1.8khz, so that would be the maximum crossover point. It would be the ideal crossover point with steep slopes. Anywhere between 1.2khz and 1.6khz should be good with shallow crossover slopes.
But keep in mind that the 2344 needs specific compensation, because it is a pure constant directivity design in the frequency range you are considering.

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 10:54 AM
1.5khz or so would be much better. You also need to match the horizontal directivity at the crossover point. The 2344 is 100 from 1khz up. The 2118 shall be 100 maybe around 1.8khz, so that would be the maximum crossover point. It would be the ideal crossover point with steep slopes. Anywhere between 1.2khz and 1.6khz should be good with shallow crossover slopes.
But keep in mind that the 2344 needs specific compensation, because it is a pure constant directivity design in the frequency range you are considering.
I just studied Gold Sound Speaker Kit11,and found out that its crossover points is 300hz&5000hz,maybe 5000hz is the point,i'll try it first.but i like 2425 and 2344 very much,i will try it sooner or later.
Freq Response:
Power Range:
Efficiency:
Max. Volume:
Crossover
Controls
Dispersion
Distortion
Woofer
Midrange
Tweeter
Cabinet
Satellite
Subwoofer
http://www.goldsound.net/images/space.gif
28-21kHz+/-3dB
5-300 WRMS 8 ohm
93dB
118dB
300 & 5000Hz
midrange & tweeter level
100 deg to 20kHz
< 1% 3rd harmonic at 100 dB
JBL 15" 2235H; 80 oz mag
JBL 8" 2118H, 30 oz magnet
JBL 2404H biradial horn
6 cf, 44x18x17" -OR-
0.4 cf, 16x10x8" &
6 cf, 44x18x17" (2 req'd) http://www.goldsound.net/images/space.gif

martin_wu99
11-12-2010, 11:17 AM
1.5khz or so would be much better. You also need to match the horizontal directivity at the crossover point. The 2344 is 100 from 1khz up. The 2118 shall be 100 maybe around 1.8khz, so that would be the maximum crossover point. It would be the ideal crossover point with steep slopes. Anywhere between 1.2khz and 1.6khz should be good with shallow crossover slopes.
But keep in mind that the 2344 needs specific compensation, because it is a pure constant directivity design in the frequency range you are considering.
What kind of specific compensation does 2344 need?:confused:

cosmos
11-12-2010, 02:54 PM
Here is the system in my workshop. I think it sounds pretty good and can be heard over most shop noise.. :-) An added benefit is that the critical drivers are high enough to be near ear level when standing and can shoot over most of the equipment..

There is (2) 2245H per channel crossed over at about 100 Hz.

Robh3606
11-12-2010, 03:03 PM
There is (2) 2245H per channel crossed over at about 100 Hz.

Sure you have enough woofer down there. I bet they kick some serious butt!!

Rob:applaud:

cosmos
11-12-2010, 07:19 PM
Sure you have enough woofer down there. I bet they kick some serious butt!!

Rob:applaud:

Rob,

Yeah, they can be a little overwhelming if you let them... :D

It's amazing how effortlessly they can produce deep bass. If you watch them work, you can barely see them working. You hear the boom, but just barely see them move. Amazing I tell ya!!! ;)

Further, they are just about a perfect bottom for 4628B. I think in a pair they're about the same efficiency.. and they integrate with the E145 so well.. It is a much better sounding system than many, many knowledgeable people would think. No, it's not leading edge.. but damn it makes nice music and it sounds live and dynamic!

Before I found these, I had a pair of SR4718 that sounded great, but was looking for a pair of 4518. These came along and I am really pleased with their performance. The funny thing is, with them on casters and stacked up that way, it really doesn't take that much floorspace and they're easy to move around. I have Metal and fabric grills for the front to protect the drivers from accidentally putting a board through a cone.

martin_wu99
11-15-2010, 12:55 AM
Rob,

Yeah, they can be a little overwhelming if you let them... :D

It's amazing how effortlessly they can produce deep bass. If you watch them work, you can barely see them working. You hear the boom, but just barely see them move. Amazing I tell ya!!! ;)

Further, they are just about a perfect bottom for 4628B. I think in a pair they're about the same efficiency.. and they integrate with the E145 so well.. It is a much better sounding system than many, many knowledgeable people would think. No, it's not leading edge.. but damn it makes nice music and it sounds live and dynamic!

Before I found these, I had a pair of SR4718 that sounded great, but was looking for a pair of 4518. These came along and I am really pleased with their performance. The funny thing is, with them on casters and stacked up that way, it really doesn't take that much floorspace and they're easy to move around. I have Metal and fabric grills for the front to protect the drivers from accidentally putting a board through a cone.
You're right, I'll say,you can call 4628B PA box,but it is more than a PA box!it sounds more near live than most monitor playback systems. damn so good out of your imagination!unbelieveable!
Yesterday,i went to local hifi store,they are showing Wilson audio speakers, a small Wilson speaker(sophia?not sure) is powered by Gryphon,it sounds great indeed:nature\ balance\mild,but the price is ridiculous,220KRMB!:eek: comparing with JBL,they are just toys and luxury.:banghead:

martin_wu99
11-15-2010, 02:15 AM
1.5khz or so would be much better. You also need to match the horizontal directivity at the crossover point. The 2344 is 100 from 1khz up. The 2118 shall be 100 maybe around 1.8khz, so that would be the maximum crossover point. It would be the ideal crossover point with steep slopes. Anywhere between 1.2khz and 1.6khz should be good with shallow crossover slopes.
But keep in mind that the 2344 needs specific compensation, because it is a pure constant directivity design in the frequency range you are considering.
How do you think about 2206\2226\E140?Which one go deeper?
Thank you

pos
11-15-2010, 11:45 PM
You have E145, you don't need any of these.
If you want to start a new system from scratch I suggest you look at this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm

martin_wu99
11-16-2010, 06:08 AM
You have E145, you don't need any of these.
If you want to start a new system from scratch I suggest you look at this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
That's a big project!
I mean that i just have intent to build two 15' system,you know in China, space is more expensive than gears.
Maybe only adding a 2245 on each chanel is a best way for my 4628B.
Have you ever listened to 4628B?how do you think of it?48571

martin_wu99
11-19-2010, 01:31 AM
You have E145, you don't need any of these.
If you want to start a new system from scratch I suggest you look at this:
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm
One more question,pos
4628B's boxes is just the same,that is not mirror imaged
I noticed that 4315 is not mirror imaged as well,but most studio monitors are mirror imaged.
How this affect the sound image?why?
Thank you

pos
11-19-2010, 02:10 AM
Not that much . The geometry of your room has much more impact on stereo imaging when sited 2 or 3 meters from the speakers.

martin_wu99
11-22-2010, 03:47 AM
If I were you, I would only keep the 4628B and sell the 4699 and 4691 and other cabaret speakers you might have.
The 4628B Is the only one that really has good component and can be converted to hifi use. I would use subwoofer(s) to assist under 80Hz (real subwoofers, not PA speakers from the cabaret serie)
I would discard the current passive filter and go fully active. The M533 is a good unit but a digital crossover like a DCX2496, together with some measurement gears, would give you more possibilities.

Then, you have to change something with the drivers if you want a really good sound, because neither the 2118H nor the 2404H-1 are really good at 3khz.

You have 3 choices:

1- remove the 2118H, close its opening, and put a big horn and compression driver on top of the cabinet. Crossovers could be something like 800Hz and 8khz. The horn could be something like a 2397 if you find one. You will need a big horn to reach 800Hz (the E145 is not that great higher than that)

2- keep the 2118H, and put a small horn on top of the cabinet, with a higher crossover, like 1200Hz and 8khz. A 2307/2308 could do the job. But then you will have a 4 way (plus subwoofers!) and the crossover will be difficult to deal with

3- remove the 2404H-1 (this is the -1 variant anyway: it does not go that high) and replace it by a small horn and compression driver that is able to go to 20khz. That would be the best option in my opinion. A JBL 2407 (or BMS 4540nd) and a the small PT waveguide from the JBL AC16 speaker (PT-B99HF-1). This is going to be a really inexpensive combo (the 2407 can be found on ebay US, and the horn can be had from JBL Pro and is something like 10$ each), and can sound very good. The crossover point with the 2118H would be around 2.5khz, and you would have to use the CD compensation function of the M553 (horn preemphasis)
So in the end that would be: E145 up to around 400Hz, 2118H from 400Hz to 2.5khz, 2407 from 2.5khz up to 20khz with CD compensation. That can be done with the M553, fully active.

Then you just have to add some subwoofers, preferably spread accross the room, and you will have a killer system.
Hi,pos,i'v just bought a Behringer DCX2496,now i can do something for my 4628B:D
It cost me 960RMB.

martin_wu99
11-23-2010, 03:31 AM
I have intent to buy a pair of LSR12,12''active subwooofer ,could it work with E145?that match 4628B?

pos
11-23-2010, 04:16 AM
yes, these are very good subs!

martin_wu99
11-23-2010, 06:47 AM
yes, these are very good subs!
Then comparing with 2235,which one is bettter?or more suitable for 4628B?:D

pos
11-23-2010, 07:32 AM
With the LSR12 you get a complete subwoofer with amp, protection, and crossover.
The 2235H is a great driver, better than the 252F in the LSR12, but you needs bigs cabs and a capable plate amp. Two LSR12 should be more than adequate for home use

martin_wu99
11-23-2010, 10:59 PM
With the LSR12 you get a complete subwoofer with amp, protection, and crossover.
The 2235H is a great driver, better than the 252F in the LSR12, but you needs bigs cabs and a capable plate amp. Two LSR12 should be more than adequate for home use
How about 2245 cabs?
Someone on this forum think they are more suitable for home hifi usage.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29848-Subs-for-HiFi-Use-Pair-of-2245H-vs-Pair-of-Sub1500

pos
11-24-2010, 01:28 AM
These are even better, but you will need to build even bigger (and better) boxes for them.
LSR12 : 50L
2235H : 150L
2245H : 300L ...

martin_wu99
11-24-2010, 05:36 AM
These are even better, but you will need to build even bigger (and better) boxes for them.
LSR12 : 50L
2235H : 150L
2245H : 300L ...
That's space vs.demand indeed.
Which one corresponds to E145?

Robh3606
11-24-2010, 07:33 AM
Hello martin

The biggest question you need to answer to figure out what sub to use is what are the peak SPL requirements for them?? Also music will be much less demanding than HT from 40Hz and down so how will you be using them??

I use a 2235 as my LFE sub in a B380 box and it works fine however it is peak SPL limited on demanding material. I can hit the THX 105db reference level just fine but I am running close to the edge in LFE channel doing it in my room. I am building a second B380 to have a pair for LFE to give me another 6db of headroom.

If you have a large room or like to listen loud make sure the subs can keep up. You can always add another sub down the line if you need too.

Rob:)

martin_wu99
11-24-2010, 08:54 AM
Hello martin

The biggest question you need to answer to figure out what sub to use is what are the peak SPL requirements for them?? Also music will be much less demanding than HT from 40Hz and down so how will you be using them??

I use a 2235 as my LFE sub in a B380 box and it works fine however it is peak SPL limited on demanding material. I can hit the THX 105db reference level just fine but I am running close to the edge in LFE channel doing it in my room. I am building a second B380 to have a pair for LFE to give me another 6db of headroom.

If you have a large room or like to listen loud make sure the subs can keep up. You can always add another sub down the line if you need too.

Rob:)
Thank you,rob.
I'm only considering subs for hifi music use,HT usage is no considered at this time.and i don't need very high SPL in my room at all. i'm just wondering which pair of subs are more naturely and fluently join to my 4628B.

martin_wu99
12-01-2010, 12:32 AM
If I were you, I would only keep the 4628B and sell the 4699 and 4691 and other cabaret speakers you might have.
The 4628B Is the only one that really has good component and can be converted to hifi use. I would use subwoofer(s) to assist under 80Hz (real subwoofers, not PA speakers from the cabaret serie)
I would discard the current passive filter and go fully active. The M533 is a good unit but a digital crossover like a DCX2496, together with some measurement gears, would give you more possibilities.

Then, you have to change something with the drivers if you want a really good sound, because neither the 2118H nor the 2404H-1 are really good at 3khz.

You have 3 choices:

1- remove the 2118H, close its opening, and put a big horn and compression driver on top of the cabinet. Crossovers could be something like 800Hz and 8khz. The horn could be something like a 2397 if you find one. You will need a big horn to reach 800Hz (the E145 is not that great higher than that)

2- keep the 2118H, and put a small horn on top of the cabinet, with a higher crossover, like 1200Hz and 8khz. A 2307/2308 could do the job. But then you will have a 4 way (plus subwoofers!) and the crossover will be difficult to deal with

3- remove the 2404H-1 (this is the -1 variant anyway: it does not go that high) and replace it by a small horn and compression driver that is able to go to 20khz. That would be the best option in my opinion. A JBL 2407 (or BMS 4540nd) and a the small PT waveguide from the JBL AC16 speaker (PT-B99HF-1). This is going to be a really inexpensive combo (the 2407 can be found on ebay US, and the horn can be had from JBL Pro and is something like 10$ each), and can sound very good. The crossover point with the 2118H would be around 2.5khz, and you would have to use the CD compensation function of the M553 (horn preemphasis)
So in the end that would be: E145 up to around 400Hz, 2118H from 400Hz to 2.5khz, 2407 from 2.5khz up to 20khz with CD compensation. That can be done with the M553, fully active.

Then you just have to add some subwoofers, preferably spread accross the room, and you will have a killer system.
Pos,my DCX2496 has just arrived,but it seems have no measurement function:confused::banghead:

pos
12-01-2010, 01:40 AM
no, the only thing you can do with it (beside crossovers!) is automatic time alignment (which is already quite useful!) with EMC8000 measurement mic. The DEQ2496 has measurement capabilities but a PC would be better.
If you buy that mic then you only need a mic preamp with phantom power and you can use any PC as a measurement device with something like HOLM impulse.

martin_wu99
12-02-2010, 01:33 AM
no, the only thing you can do with it (beside crossovers!) is automatic time alignment (which is already quite useful!) with EMC8000 measurement mic. The DEQ2496 has measurement capabilities but a PC would be better.
If you buy that mic then you only need a mic preamp with phantom power and you can use any PC as a measurement device with something like HOLM impulse.
Where can i get EMC8000?and a mic preamp?phantom power?
so complex?!:eek::banghead::blink:

pos
12-02-2010, 03:06 AM
sorry I meant ECM8000 not EMC8000 :
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

If you want to do time alignement (delays on each driver to get them time-aligned at the crossover frequencies) you jsut need to plug it into the 'C' input of your DCX2496.

If you want to do real response measurement with this mic then this is more complexe, but you have two choices:
1- you buy a DEQ2496 and rely on its frequency response analyser (not very precise...)
2- you buy a usb sound card for your computer, with an integrated mic preamp and phatom power (the ECM8000 needs some power), and you install a free measurement sofware such as holm impulse. This is much more precise than a DEQ2496, but also much more complex...

martin_wu99
12-03-2010, 01:31 AM
sorry I meant ECM8000 not EMC8000 :
http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/ECM8000.aspx

If you want to do time alignement (delays on each driver to get them time-aligned at the crossover frequencies) you jsut need to plug it into the 'C' input of your DCX2496.

If you want to do real response measurement with this mic then this is more complexe, but you have two choices:
1- you buy a DEQ2496 and rely on its frequency response analyser (not very precise...)
2- you buy a usb sound card for your computer, with an integrated mic preamp and phatom power (the ECM8000 needs some power), and you install a free measurement sofware such as holm impulse. This is much more precise than a DEQ2496, but also much more complex...
I heard that Bag-end comany have this technology,is this T-A very important for my 4628B?
I think that how to coordinate every drivers sound level in 4628B when active crossover and tri-amp is more important for me.Is that right?:confused:

pos
12-03-2010, 02:05 AM
yes you are right, level matching is much more important.
Also, if you go active and remove all passive parts, put a cap in serie with your 2404s to protect them in case of problem (bad parameters on DCX, amp problem, ...). Something around 15uF or 20uF should be good.

martin_wu99
12-03-2010, 03:59 AM
yes you are right, level matching is much more important.
Also, if you go active and remove all passive parts, put a cap in serie with your 2404s to protect them in case of problem (bad parameters on DCX, amp problem, ...). Something around 15uF or 20uF should be good.
Thanks for your remindering!
Then how to match these drivers level?By what method?:banghead:

pos
12-03-2010, 04:35 AM
measurement with a PC is the best method, but with a simple SPL meter and some test signals (from a PC or a test CD) you can already do basic level adjustments.

martin_wu99
12-05-2010, 08:03 AM
measurement with a PC is the best method, but with a simple SPL meter and some test signals (from a PC or a test CD) you can already do basic level adjustments.
Pos,could you please give me some more detailed information on this?some examples\some threads on this forum.
Thank you
Martin

pos
12-05-2010, 01:36 PM
You can plug your PC to your sound system and use WinISD (http://www.linearteam.dk/default.aspx?pageid=winisd) to generate some test tones at different frequencies, and then you can use any SPL meter (http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&safe=off&q=spl+meter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&biw=1024&bih=449) to check the resulting SPL trough your speakers.

First thing would be to connect all the drivers directly to amp (with a protection cap on the 2404), and dial the same crossover point as the original 4628 passive network in the DCX2496, with LR24 slopes as a start (800khz et 3khz I think?)
Then you plug you computer to the DCX2496 inpout, and try different test frequencies in the mid band of each driver (lets say 400Hz for the E145, 1.5khz for the 2118, and 6khz for the 2404), and you adjust your amplifiers to get the same SPL for each on the SPL meter (same position, lets say 2m from the speaker, at ear level).

When that is done you knwo your levels are ok and the system should sound similar to its passive version, and you can start tweaking...

ratitifb
12-05-2010, 02:22 PM
and try different test frequencies in the mid band of each driver (lets say 400Hz for the E145, 1.5khz for the 2118, and 6khz for the 2404), and you adjust your amplifiers to get the same SPL for each on the SPL meter (same position, lets say 2m from the speaker, at ear level)... i'm afraid when using pure tones in a non anchoc room :eek: It'll be preferable to generate narrow band noise centered on the frequencies you have suggested ;)

pos
12-05-2010, 02:46 PM
yes you are right. At least all these frequencies are likely to be above the schroeder frequency in martin's room, so that should not be that bad, but larger band signals would definitely be safer.
Can you suggest a software that would easily generate these band noise signals?

ratitifb
12-05-2010, 03:03 PM
Can you suggest a software that would easily generate these band noise signals?Adobe audition ;) (Cool Edit Pro in the past ...)

martin_wu99
01-18-2011, 05:03 AM
yes you are right, level matching is much more important.
Also, if you go active and remove all passive parts, put a cap in serie with your 2404s to protect them in case of problem (bad parameters on DCX, amp problem, ...). Something around 15uF or 20uF should be good.
Pos,Iv made six balanced cables for active crossovering my 4628B in my spare time,but still lack two 15-20uF caps,what's the votage of the caps?Do they have to in serie with 2404s permanently?

Thank you

Martin

pos
01-18-2011, 05:12 AM
Yes they need to stay there for long, at least as long as you do not have another protection system, and are confident about the whole system (amp DC, human errors on filtering or cabling, turn on/off noises of amps and other equipements, etc).
You need such caps for the tweeter and also for any compression driver tou will use (but you would need a higher value caps for these, because they will be cut lower in frequency).
For the voltage 100V would be more than enough, but bigger than that would not hurt either.

martin_wu99
01-18-2011, 05:23 AM
Yes they need to stay there for long, at least as long as you do not have another protection system, and are confident about the whole system (amp DC, human errors on filtering or cabling, turn on/off noises of amps and other equipements, etc).
You need such caps for the tweeter and also for any compression driver tou will use (but you would need a higher value caps for these, because they will be cut lower in frequency).
For the voltage 100V would be more than enough, but bigger than that would not hurt either.
Thanks for replying me so quickly.
You encouraged me:applaud:

ratitifb
01-18-2011, 07:39 AM
please take a look from these JBL recommandations ;)

(from JBL 5234 active X-over tech doc)

martin_wu99
01-18-2011, 09:55 AM
please take a look from these JBL recommandations ;)

(from JBL 5234 active X-over tech doc)

Thank you for your guide.it's very helpful.

kartsmart
05-25-2011, 03:28 PM
If you insist on going active, and you are ready to do -lots of- measurements, I think the best two options are to add a horn on top to turn it into 4 way (a 2370 would do, but a 2397 would sure be cooler), or to replace the 2404 by a 2407 (http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PRO-2407H-1-EXIT-NEW-GENERATION-RING-RADIATOR-PR-/370455421478).
But then if you ultimately manage to get something as good as a 4348, you will be disappointed as you will miss that 80's sound ;)[/QUOTE]

I will be trying something , keep it a 3 way, replacing the 2118 mid with the 2360A horn and 2441 driver say 600 HZ to 8-10K , and of coarse 2245 subs :D

martin_wu99
05-26-2011, 04:46 AM
If you insist on going active, and you are ready to do -lots of- measurements, I think the best two options are to add a horn on top to turn it into 4 way (a 2370 would do, but a 2397 would sure be cooler), or to replace the 2404 by a 2407 (http://cgi.ebay.com/JBL-PRO-2407H-1-EXIT-NEW-GENERATION-RING-RADIATOR-PR-/370455421478).
But then if you ultimately manage to get something as good as a 4348, you will be disappointed as you will miss that 80's sound ;)

I will be trying something , keep it a 3 way, replacing the 2118 mid with the 2360A horn and 2441 driver say 600 HZ to 8-10K , and of coarse 2245 subs :D[/QUOTE]
Thanks for your advise,my dear friend:D
Do you have 4628B as well?do you like it very much? do you have any passive crossover drawing?:applaud:
Pls show some pics of your 4628B,I'd be very delingted to look at:D

kartsmart
05-26-2011, 06:27 AM
Do you have 4628B as well?do you like it very much? do you have any passive crossover drawing?:applaud:

yes I do have a nice pair of 4628B I like them for what they are they do well but room for Improvement , all I would need to do is lay the boxes on the side so the 2404s on on the top and mount the little horns on top and go active on the crossover / I think it could be a nice system for under a $ 1000 ea or as a $400 up grade .
went through a lot of post for 2360As and have not seen the E145 used as upper bass ?
lots of 2206s , has any of you 2360 owners used the E145s I like to hear your response .
cheers Kartsmart

martin_wu99
02-14-2012, 04:01 AM
Do you have 4628B as well?do you like it very much? do you have any passive crossover drawing?:applaud:

yes I do have a nice pair of 4628B I like them for what they are they do well but room for Improvement , all I would need to do is lay the boxes on the side so the 2404s on on the top and mount the little horns on top and go active on the crossover / I think it could be a nice system for under a $ 1000 ea or as a $400 up grade .
went through a lot of post for 2360As and have not seen the E145 used as upper bass ?
lots of 2206s , has any of you 2360 owners used the E145s I like to hear your response .
cheers Kartsmart

After such a long time,do you have any good suggestions on 4628B?