best imaging from C60 soveriegns

[aaronz28]

hi,
i have a pair of JBL Sovereign C60s - and wondering if these have true audiophile capability when it comes to detail and imaging...

i've heard that these were the creme of the crop - and i'm currently running a McIntosh C11, into a MC240 into the JBLS but my room is very narrow - so i've positioned the speakers so that the tweeters are on the inside (not sure if this is how they are supposed to be or not) can't really find details...

i had once thought about bi-amping them, but not sure if it is worth it...

can anyone help?


i might retire them to a solid state setup and get something else to run with my Mac Tubes unless someone can convince me that these JBLS will outperform say B&W or Martin Logan etc...

i'm going to be moving my audio room soon, so it would be good to know exactly how much width i need to make these guys work in their ideal situation.... as the current space is clearly not wide enough..

cheers

Aaron

[BMWCCA]

Which load do your C60s carry? S7R or S8R?

[Mr. Widget]

i have a pair of JBL Sovereign C60s - and wondering if these have true audiophile capability when it comes to detail and imaging...The debate over the term "audiophile" aside and the huge range of definitions of what "good imaging" is, I'd say my short answer is no.

These speakers are more furniture than high end audio... the components can be extracted, better crossovers used and really great results realized, but the Sovereign and Olympus cabinets were designed before so much that we understand today was widely known.


Widget

[aaronz28]

S8r. Thx

[yggdrasil]

Widget is spot on.

That being said - a simple crossover mod is enough to ensure lots of joy from these speakers.

Here's what I did to mine:
LX5 - the switch just quit working, so I soldered shorts leaving it in middle position. The HF cap was bypassed by a realtively large cap (1.5uF).
N7000 - No problems with the l-pad yet, so I just added bypass caps (0.01uF).

On the downside they are no longer original. The upside is that they are usable!

I have mine with the tweeters on the outside. That can give a wider stereo perspective, but with the limited dispersion from the 075 you'll need to get some distance between you and the speakers.

[aaronz28]

Widget is spot on.

That being said - a simple crossover mod is enough to ensure lots of joy from these speakers.

Here's what I did to mine:
LX5 - the switch just quit working, so I soldered shorts leaving it in middle position. The HF cap was bypassed by a realtively large cap (1.5uF).
N7000 - No problems with the l-pad yet, so I just added bypass caps (0.01uF).

On the downside they are no longer original. The upside is that they are usable!

I have mine with the tweeters on the outside. That can give a wider stereo perspective, but with the limited dispersion from the 075 you'll need to get some distance between you and the speakers.


thanks - i'm thinking i'm going to get an active crossover and bi-amp them with a nice solid state amp for the woofers - and keep my Mc240 on the mid/tweet -
for the HF cap mod - when you say "bypassed" i'm assuming you mean that you replaced the stock cap with a larger cap? what voltage is sufficient for this?

you wouldn't happen to have a photo of yours with the mod? thanks

Aaron

[yggdrasil]

Sorry, didn't take photos of the mod's.

I placed the new cap's in parallell with the old caps. No caps removed.

If you replace the LX5 with an active crossover it could be almost as easy to just build a new N7000. There really aren't that many components.

[Mr. Widget]

thanks - i'm thinking i'm going to get an active crossover and bi-amp them with a nice solid state amp for the woofers - and keep my Mc240 on the mid/tweet - Not at all a bad starting point. Get a quality active crossover, i.e. one that is at the level of your other gear or at the level you eventually hope to achieve.

Beyond the cabinet design there is something else to consider with the S8R. The HL93 short exponential horn is being asked to mate to a woofer that likes to go to 500Hz. In the 60's JBL rated that horn for that service. In the 70's they derated it and called it a 1200Hz horn. This is not trivial.


Widget

[aaronz28]

so there is a 500-1200hz range that is missing...

can anything be done to "replace" that?

thanks

Aaron

[Mr. Widget]

so there is a 500-1200hz range that is missing...

can anything be done to "replace" that?

thanks

AaronMissing may not be exactly the right wording, but the performance in this critical range is certainly lacking.

You have two choices, add a midbass driver as in the 4343 or 4350 or change the horn. The 375 driver is excellent.


Widget

[grumpy]

The range is not 'missing', it's just outside of the woofer and driver/horn's optimum operating area
such that other, more modern drivers might operate in this range more ... optimally (lower distortion,
less noticeable/stereotypical horn characteristics.

I wouldn't be immediately worrying about it, especially if you like the sound. Updating the crossover
would be a good way to wet your feet, so to speak.

[Mr. Widget]

I wouldn't be immediately worrying about it, especially if you like the sound. Updating the crossover
would be a good way to wet your feet, so to speak.I agree, however, for many who damn these and other vintage JBLs as having a "horn sound", I think it is primarily due to the use of a horn below it's optimal range.

But then there are those who covet the vintage "horn sound".


Widget

[aaronz28]

i've been playing with these for some time now - so my feet are certainly "WET" Lol -

i wouldn't say that i notice these as "horny" sounding speakers, but i've often noticed something missing that I do hear in other speakers - and that 500-1200hz mid range is probably the lack of warmth i'm missing..

what "HORN" would you recommend? and will it fit inside the cabinet? or would i have to do serious serious mods?

Thanks

Aaron

[Mr. Widget]

As I mentioned early on, if you want "high-end" performance, lose the cabinets. If the furniture look is paramount, try going active and add an equalizer and hope for the best. I don't think you can get a better horn in that cabinet and in any event, just like the current one it'll be fighting the near floor placement and that grille.

Personally, I'd save the 375s, sell the rest and start over... though I wouldn't recommend a novice to take that route.

On a parallel topic, what condition are your LE15A woofer surrounds in?


Widget

[aaronz28]

As I mentioned early on, if you want "high-end" performance, lose the cabinets. If the furniture look is paramount, try going active and add an equalizer and hope for the best. I don't think you can get a better horn in that cabinet and in any event, just like the current one it'll be fighting the near floor placement and that grille.

Personally, I'd save the 375s, sell the rest and start over... though I wouldn't recommend a novice to take that route.

On a parallel topic, what condition are your LE15A woofer surrounds in?


Widget

thanks - i'm going to keep the furniture look and try to do the best with them... the surrounds on my LE15a are perfect and original - they were very well taken care of.

thanks

Aaron

[aaronz28]

As I mentioned early on, if you want "high-end" performance, lose the cabinets. If the furniture look is paramount, try going active and add an equalizer and hope for the best. I don't think you can get a better horn in that cabinet and in any event, just like the current one it'll be fighting the near floor placement and that grille.


Widget

ya know - on the side opposite of the tweeter - i have some room to install a mid/bass driver - although I don't know how big it would have to be, and i'm not sure if that would drastically change the cabinets response...

another thought - would be to loose the passive radiator and put a mid unit in there? or is that passive radiator crucial to the performance of the cab...

as far as the distance from the floor - i could easily see myself building stands that elevate the cabinets 24" although they'd still be a "horizontal" speaker... -

i'd like them to look as "stock" as possible as my grills are also in perfect condition and I have the center control console with it - so i'd like to keep the "appearance" as vintage as possible

thanks

Aaron

[Mr. Widget]

Don't go there... either dump 'em or love them as they are... a little EQ here and crossover work there. Yes, you could lose the passive and replace it with a port, but you don't have the internal volume to give up that would be needed for the midbass.

You can raise them if you want... it couldn't hurt, but might look lame.

If you want modern performance that'll blow you away, buy some modern JBLs... the 1400 Arrays are fantastic, though they don't have that retro look. With great effort and expense you can have the retro look and modern performance, but not with those cabinets.


Widget

[aaronz28]

was just looking at the 1400array - they look cool as hell and if I was gonna do a new Home Theatre setup - i'd probably consider them...

for now, i'm keeping my 7.1 setup (which has 4311b across the front (R/C/L) and as soon as I move into the new house, i'm gonna get 4 more to run as sides and backs... i'm sure there are better speakers out there for a retro type home theatre - but i love these guys.


i'll try the active crossover and see what happens - are the mods to the upper crossover necessary? - and what crossover units do you guys recommend for these speakers?
Thanks

Aaron

[yggdrasil]

i'll try the active crossover and see what happens - are the mods to the upper crossover necessary?
Yes. Changes are not subtle..

[aaronz28]

So what active crossover would u guys recommend?

[Mr. Widget]

So what active crossover would u guys recommend?How much money have you got... no not a tongue in cheek question. There are $200 recommendations and there are significantly more costly options that are significantly better.

Ashly on the low end, Marchand above that and Pass Labs at the top... there are also others.


Widget

[aaronz28]

Well. With that 500-1200hz issue, would the Marchand really be a noticeable benefit?

Seems to me, someone once recommended the Pioneer SF850.


Cheers

[Caledon Ken]

I'm in the process of investigating a restoration of my C60 S8R's and would like to ask a question from this thread. Earlier in this thread Mr Widget stated "As I mentioned early on, if you want "high-end" performance, lose the cabinets". My cabinets need real work and while I would like to keep things "Original" I would like to explore options. (There were actually lots of items in this thread that peaked my interest, the horn discussion between 500-1200Hz and the better crossovers)

If there is a better cabinet that would produce a better sound I would be interested in determining whether it would be easier to acquire rather than refinish.

Is there a particular cabinet that comes to mind?

I plan to implement the by-pass on the N7000's outlined in this thread. (and I still reading about crossovers)

[HCSGuy]

I think the biggest problem is that the cabinet is just too low - if you could bring it up a foot, brace it, get rid of the wood grill, and rework the crossover, the speaker would sound incredibly better. However, your style cabinet doesn't look good unless it's on the floor. I'd consider looking for or copying one of the old monitor enclosures, like the C50SM, as it would look better on stands.

[Caledon Ken]

Thanks.

I understand even if I do replace cabinet I still will have some sound "Gap" because of horn. I'll look into that case you mentioned.

[Fort Knox]

Don't loose the cabinet..
Eq the Gap ....it will tell you what's really going on .....

[Caledon Ken]

Sorry, not what you mean by Eq the gap. I think you are suggesting a type of test gear to see what is missing. Can I rent such a device?

Thanks for responding.