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View Full Version : Why is so many unteressted in measuring?



Rolf
12-09-2011, 02:16 PM
I wonder why so many her is interessting in measuring speakers. Isen't it sound we are interresting in? I dont give a f**ck about measureing, but I care about THE SOUND. If driver has "ts, vs or 'wc, I dont care. Use your ear to find out what sounds better or worse. Some here looks more to specks than sound. Dohoo.

1audiohack
12-09-2011, 02:44 PM
I can certainly see how you could draw that conclusion. For me it is partially the curiosity that drives me. I believe that in order to get the most out of something complex, or to repair something complex properly you must first really understand how it works. Armed with sufficient knowledge and data one can select components and assemble systems that will likely perform as expected. A far more efficient method than any other I know of.

This works for me as I like creating things that are particularly suited to my desires. A lot of the stuff I build I could easily afford to just go out and buy but where is the adventure in that? That's the other part that drives me. The reward is two sound systems that I absolutely love, that I largely developed myself.

Next up and soon is a dedicated listening room, from the dirt on up. For this I have the invaluable assistance of a good friend of mine who happens to be a professor specializing in small room acoustics, but he is not going to design it for me, I will be his student in the lab so to speak and if you think we do a lot of measurements of speakers, you should see the amount of data collected during acoustical projects! Frankly I can't wait.

The end goal for me however is the musical experience, what was learned along the way is icing on the cake, and the people I met and got to interact with is the ice-cream.

richluvsound
12-09-2011, 03:28 PM
I can certainly see how you could draw that conclusion. For me it is partially the curiosity that drives me. I believe that in order to get the most out of something complex, or to repair something complex properly you must first really understand how it works. Armed with sufficient knowledge and data one can select components and assemble systems that will likely perform as expected. A far more efficient method than any other I know of.

This works for me as I like creating things that are particularly suited to my desires. A lot of the stuff I build I could easily afford to just go out and buy but where is the adventure in that? That's the other part that drives me. The reward is two sound systems that I absolutely love, that I largely developed myself.

Next up and soon is a dedicated listening room, from the dirt on up. For this I have the invaluable assistance of a good friend of mine who happens to be a professor specializing in small room acoustics, but he is not going to design it for me, I will be his student in the lab so to speak and if you think we do a lot of measurements of speakers, you should see the amount of data collected during acoustical projects! Frankly I can't wait.

The end goal for me however is the musical experience, what was learned along the way is icing on the cake, and the people I met and got to interact with is the ice-cream.

Not that I know much about the theory ,but what I do know , will learn, will be from members such as yourself . It would be easy to waste a ton of cash and time without the research behind a project .

To be able to build speakers ,or any audio component is both blessing and a curse . There is always that little thing you want to tweek ! To come to think of it ..... Its not just sound ,its anything one builds .

If a job is worth doing ,its worth doing to the best of ones ability .

Thanks for passing on your experience , Rich

Ian Mackenzie
12-09-2011, 04:14 PM
Perhaps Rolf is saying dont get hooked on measurements and become a curve junky

I agree it won't help you design a world class loudspeaker.

However if something sounds amiss to your ears a good Test set might help you locate the problem

BMWCCA
12-09-2011, 04:46 PM
If driver has "ts, vs or 'wc, I dont care.Fine, and I'm probably in the same boat since I'm ignorant . . . but I'm damn glad someone cared or I'd likely not have the fine instruments I'm fortunate enough to be listening to as I type this reply.
:applaud:

SEAWOLF97
12-09-2011, 04:56 PM
can't gear measure good, but actually sound bad ?

ie: be within all the right parameters and not fulfill the expectations ?

cable, wire, JBL's

then measurement is a starting point to weed out the chaff before time
is spent on listening tests.

Lee in Montreal
12-09-2011, 04:59 PM
I wonder why so many her is interessting in measuring speakers

Psychoacoustic and delusion. It's easy to convince yourself that your tin can sounding system is as good as any high end monitor. Measurements don't lie. ;)

1audiohack
12-09-2011, 07:37 PM
can't gear measure good, but actually sound bad ?

Sure, but think of how many measurements it would really take to accurately describe anything complex. One could say my wife is 36-24-36 and right off the bat many would be thinking wow, those measurements however could be a thigh, arm and neck and even if they were what you originally thought, how thorough of a description is that? Doesn't even scratch the surface does it.

Its been said that if it measured good but sounds bad, you measured the wrong thing. Worse than that there are many ways to manipulate the results of measurements just in the parameters you set, and still worse you can make measurements that are total fiction.

Robh3606
12-09-2011, 07:49 PM
Are you kidding??

Rob:)

DS-21
12-09-2011, 08:46 PM
Measurements don't lie. ;)

Not to a person competent to interpret them, they don't.

To someone without a sufficient intellectual foundation to understand audio measurements - i.e. most "audiophiles" - things are different.

yggdrasil
12-10-2011, 02:59 AM
IME: If it measures bad, it sounds wrong.

Maron Horonzakz
12-10-2011, 06:29 AM
The only thing that measured bad but sounded good is tube amps.

Hey19
12-10-2011, 07:38 AM
The only thing that measured bad but sounded good is tube amps.

Why?

cohearent
12-10-2011, 10:34 AM
You have to define what "bad" is. A vintage McIntosh or Marantz tube amp measures pretty good and sounds great. Usually around .1 percent distortion until you get up to full power. (And then maybe .25)
.003 percent distortion is fine (high performance solid state), but can you really hear second or third harmonics 60 dB down? That is what .1 percent distortion means. You can hear 1 percent 2nd or 3rd harmonic on a tone (40 dB down), but it becomes more difficult to hear on music. Lets keep in mind that even good speakers produce way more distortion than a good amp. (Numbers like .003 equate to diminishing returns) There are many other things like square wave response which tell you how the amp responds to transients. The Mc and Marantz stuff was pretty decent in this regard also.
If you are talking about 3 watt SETs to my ear they sound exactly like they measure. BAD. They aren't in any way accurate, which is to say the output doesn't resemble the input. They have very high order second harmonic (I have measured over 10 percent within their rated power), and lousy low frequency damping because of very high output impedance. And that is how they sound. I have listened to many and measured many. If that's what you like, fine. In my book they aren't even high fidelity. BTW, high distortion, if it is low order, doesn't always sound bad, but it is adding something that isn't in the recording, especially at 10 percent (harmonics 20dB down) and that IS very audible on music.
My rule: If it measures good and sounds bad, it's bad (Not measuring all the needed parameters) But beware of the reverse: If it measures bad and sounds good, you're fooling yourself, do some more listening!

Best,

Kev

Rolf
12-10-2011, 02:44 PM
What I really ment to say is what is the perfect intstument for meassuring a good or not så good speaker (driver)? It is your ear! no matter how good (or bad) it looks at teclnical specs it is what we hear in our home that decide what is the best. A speaker that has a "flat" response from 50Hz to 15000Hz compared to another speaker that has a speck (flat) from 16Hz ro 50000Hz is of no use. Why? because if you try to get the same output from a 16Hz speaker as from a 50Hz speaker, the 16Hz speaker will "pup up" and land on the flor in front of you because the amount of air the 16Hz speaker is not capable of this, unless it can move several inces. I have never seen such a speaker. It crac out long berfore it can reproduse such a deep frq. (at a normal listening level of about 100db) You need a """ large woofer to do this. How big? have not a cue.

pos
12-10-2011, 03:09 PM
What I really ment to say is what is the perfect intstument for meassuring a good or not så good speaker (driver)? It is your ear! no matter how good (or bad) it looks at teclnical specs it is what we hear in our home that decide what is the best. A speaker that has a "flat" response from 50Hz to 15000Hz compared to another speaker that has a speck (flat) from 16Hz ro 50000Hz is of no use. Why? because if you try to get the same output from a 16Hz speaker as from a 50Hz speaker, the 16Hz speaker will "pup up" and land on the flor in front of you because the amount of air the 16Hz speaker is not capable of this, unless it can move several inces. I have never seen such a speaker. It crac out long berfore it can reproduse such a deep frq. (at a normal listening level of about 100db) You need a """ large woofer to do this. How big? have not a cue.What are all those "Hz dB inches" you are talking about here?? It looks like you don't have a clue, and that's perfectly fine: you don't need that to envoy you system as a end-user.
So leave speaker design to those how actually understand this mumbo-jumbo (JBL does, and you can be glad they actually rely on scientific approaches rather than audiophile mystics when designing your speakers) and concentrate on your hears when listening to mucic (= artistic performance) through your loudspeakers (= engineered tools).

cohearent
12-10-2011, 06:07 PM
I don't know where you get the idea that 16hz is so impossible to reproduce. I have JBL 2245 18" woofers in my system and they reproduce 16Hz beautifully. Maybe an 8" can't do it at any reasonable volume, but many larger drivers can. The larger the driver the shorter the excursion for the same listening volume.

Maron Horonzakz
12-11-2011, 08:17 AM
I must add at 16 hz you dont hear it you FEEL it.

Rolf
12-12-2011, 10:29 AM
What are all those "Hz dB inches" you are talking about here?? It looks like you don't have a clue, and that's perfectly fine: you don't need that to envoy you system as a end-user.
So leave speaker design to those how actually understand this mumbo-jumbo (JBL does, and you can be glad they actually rely on scientific approaches rather than audiophile mystics when designing your speakers) and concentrate on your hears when listening to mucic (= artistic performance) through your loudspeakers (= engineered tools).

So I don't have a clue of what I am talking about? Well, that is your opinion.

Rolf
12-12-2011, 10:35 AM
I don't know where you get the idea that 16hz is so impossible to reproduce. I have JBL 2245 18" woofers in my system and they reproduce 16Hz beautifully. Maybe an 8" can't do it at any reasonable volume, but many larger drivers can. The larger the driver the shorter the excursion for the same listening volume.

Yes, I know that. A single 16 Hz you can hear (feel). But if There is a 40 Hz tone at the same time I don't believe the woofer can handle the 16 Hz at the same level as 40 Hz. Think about how much moovement the woofer must move to push all that air needed to deliver the same db at 16 Hz compared to 40 Hz.

Rolf
12-12-2011, 10:35 AM
I must add at 16 hz you dont hear it you FEEL it.

That's correct.

herki the cat
12-12-2011, 08:55 PM
Seawolf 97 Your new AVATAR, All huff & no biting! Great fit!:applaud: herki[Quote/]

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/image.php?u=3453&dateline=1323746079&type=thumb

timc
12-12-2011, 11:49 PM
Yes, I know that. A single 16 Hz you can hear (feel). But if There is a 40 Hz tone at the same time I don't believe the woofer can handle the 16 Hz at the same level as 40 Hz. Think about how much moovement the woofer must move to push all that air needed to deliver the same db at 16 Hz compared to 40 Hz.

True, but what is your point? This is the case for any frequencies. If you half the frequency (drop one octave) you need to move 4 times more air to get the same SPL. Doesn't matter if it is from 40Hz to 20Hz, or from 200Hz to 100Hz.

I'm in the camp that claims that if it measures good and sounds bad, the measurements are wrong, incomplete or misinterpreted.

I think the problem is that people get hung up on what happens in the frequency domain, and completely forget the time domain. Many time domain responses can produce roughly the same frequency response graph. But they will sound very different.

-Tim

1audiohack
12-13-2011, 05:40 AM
I'm in the camp that claims that if it measures good and sounds bad, the measurements are wrong, incomplete or misinterpreted.

I think the problem is that people get hung up on what happens in the frequency domain, and completely forget the time domain. Many time domain responses can produce roughly the same frequency response graph. But they will sound very different.

-Tim

:yes:

Fort Knox
12-13-2011, 05:59 AM
What I really ment to say is what is the perfect intstument for meassuring a good or not så good speaker (driver)? It is your ear! no matter how good (or bad) it looks at teclnical specs it is what we hear in our home that decide what is the best. A speaker that has a "flat" response from 50Hz to 15000Hz compared to another speaker that has a speck (flat) from 16Hz ro 50000Hz is of no use. Why? because if you try to get the same output from a 16Hz speaker as from a 50Hz speaker, the 16Hz speaker will "pup up" and land on the flor in front of you because the amount of air the 16Hz speaker is not capable of this, unless it can move several inces. I have never seen such a speaker. It crac out long berfore it can reproduse such a deep frq. (at a normal listening level of about 100db) You need a """ large woofer to do this. How big? have not a cue.

Let the guys do their thing!

SEAWOLF97
12-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Seawolf 97 Your new AVATAR, All huff & no biting! Great fit!:applaud: herki[Quote/] http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/image.php?u=3453&dateline=1323746079&type=thumb thats great, great, great grandpa .. we are all monkeys ....or cats/rats , some just more than others ...
I admit my roots
if you'd feel better, I'll take a bite out of your posts ? that wud be easy...too easy tho .;)



Whoa , I didn't realize that you are famous

pretty cool taking your nom de plume from a 5 y.o. runaway , neutered feline from Scotland ....
bite,bite,bite

Name: Herki
Description: Herki went missing from his home in Ballieston, Glasgow on 17/10/11. He is a friendly 5-year-old brown & black tabby short-haired male cat who was not wearing a collar when he got lost. However, Herki has been neutered and micro-chipped. http://www.glasgow.cats.org.uk/glasgow/lost-and-found?id=6391


:nanana:
(http://www.glasgow.cats.org.uk/glasgow/lost-and-found?id=6391)

Rolf
12-13-2011, 10:43 AM
True, but what is your point? This is the case for any frequencies. If you half the frequency (drop one octave) you need to move 4 times more air to get the same SPL. Doesn't matter if it is from 40Hz to 20Hz, or from 200Hz to 100Hz.

I'm in the camp that claims that if it measures good and sounds bad, the measurements are wrong, incomplete or misinterpreted.

I think the problem is that people get hung up on what happens in the frequency domain, and completely forget the time domain. Many time domain responses can produce roughly the same frequency response graph. But they will sound very different.

-Tim

I totally agree. Maybe I did not get it out right, but what you say is correct.

audiomagnate
12-18-2011, 07:40 AM
So I don't have a clue of what I am talking about? Well, that is your opinion.

Rolf, I think you're trolling. And let me help you with your English, the way you say the above is "Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man"

But seriously, a lot of people around here are doing more than walking into a stereo store and picking out a speaker. They're designing new systems from the ground up, cloning existing systems etc. Without measurements it would be easy to start believing you had designed the perfect system, just because YOU had designed it. It's human nature. I believe the wise man Fat Bastard said it best, "Everybody loves their own brand!"

Fort Knox
12-18-2011, 09:01 AM
Rolf, I think you're trolling. And let me help you with your English, the way you say the above is "Yeah well, that's just, ya know, like, your opinion, man"

But seriously, a lot of people around here are doing more than walking into a stereo store and picking out a speaker. They're designing new systems from the ground up, cloning existing systems etc. Without measurements it would be easy to start believing you had designed the perfect system, just because YOU had designed it. It's human nature. I believe the wise man Fat Bastard said it best, "Everybody loves their own brand!"


Hey audioman ..you look Steve Martin

hjames
12-18-2011, 01:05 PM
Hey audioman ..you look Steve Martin ... and let me help you with your English, the way you say the above is "Hey Audiomagnate - you look like Steve Martin"

:D

Fort Knox
12-18-2011, 02:35 PM
... and let me help you with your English, the way you say the above is
"Hey Audiomagnate - you look like Steve Martin"

As long as I got your attention ......:)
I would like to know why you all
used a Wood horn on the front of your 2445's

Lee in Montreal
12-18-2011, 02:52 PM
I would like to know why you all
used a Wood horn on the front of your 2445's

Is that a serious questions? if so, I suppose there are many explanations. Among them, here are a few takes.

- Some of the great wood horns were never cast in aluminum. I am sure you can name a few.
- Wood doesn't have resonance like cast horns sometimes have. A problem that is evidenced by the damping stuff that is shot on many of JBL's horns, or the vertical bracing found at some horn's mouth.
- With CNC production tools, it is easier, faster and cheaper to produce small runs of wood horns, than making molds to cast aluminum horns.

Or maybe I didn't understand the question... :D

hjames
12-18-2011, 03:04 PM
As long as I got your attention ......:) I would like to know why you all used a Wood horn on the front of your 2445's
Actually its a 2441 ...

Built the equivalent of a 4333 3 way system in an L200 cabinet with a 2234, 2426 mid with short horn, and 2405 slot driver.
Bought a 2397 JBL smith horn and put the 2426 on it - sounded better than the metal exponential horn had,
but it was grey and ugly, so I asked around and had the walnut horn made to replace it.

Then another friend said the 2 inch drivers were better than the 1 inch ones,
so I found a pair of 2441s, pulled the 2426 drivers and adapters and put the 2441s in place.
Didn't sound worse (grin) ... and fit my budget.
(Nice as they may be, I'm not going to buy berylium diaphrams any time soon).

Currently driving the system with a loaner Jolida SJ-102 tube amp -
it plays them surprisingly well -
Klezmer music & Aja sounded very nice ...

As Rolf says, its really all about music

audiomagnate
12-18-2011, 07:35 PM
Hey audioman ..you look Steve Martin

I get that all the time. Except with the "like" in there. But Rolf is right, it's really all about the music. I'm going to leave my keyboard and listen to the other side of a RCA Dynaflex, which were supposed to sound horrible, but I love my Dynaflex records!

herki the cat
12-18-2011, 08:34 PM
Actually its a 2441 ....Then another friend said the 2 inch drivers were better than the 1 inch ones, so I found a pair of 2441s, pulled the adapters and put the 2441s in place. Didn't sound worse (grin)....
54127

Friend hjames, there are many people who love the HF tinkle of the 2441. I have no intent to wiggle your elbow, but can you find out which 2 inch drivers your friend said "were better than the 1 inch drivers?" BTW & off-topic...I got a good look inside of a brand new AR TT, which with the lid closed, looks identical to the Linn. herki [Quote/]

Ian Mackenzie
12-19-2011, 02:00 AM
Then another friend said the 2 inch drivers were better than the 1 inch ones, so I found a pair of 2441s, pulled the adapters
and put the 2441s in place. Didn't sound worse (grin).


In the case of that horn the answer is yes.

Rolf
12-19-2011, 07:18 AM
I don't know what I can comment here. Just 3 things.

Of course one need technical know how to make good driver, and a good complete speaker system. One also need people to listen and give the ones that made them there comments.

And it it's really all about music.

4313B
12-19-2011, 08:23 AM
And it it's really all about music.I'm not convinced at this point.

I think alot of it is about effects.

And gear collecting too.

SEAWOLF97
12-19-2011, 09:35 AM
I think a lot of it is about effects.

And gear collecting too.

:yes::yes:

badman
12-19-2011, 10:47 AM
I'm not convinced at this point.

I think alot of it is about effects.

And gear collecting too.

That's ridiculous. Nobody around here has more than 1 pair of JBLs! :p

Rolf
12-19-2011, 01:21 PM
I'm not convinced at this point.

I think alot of it is about effects.

And gear collecting too.

So ... what is it really about?:) I am not talking about collecting treasures (old and beautiful equipment)?

bone215
12-19-2011, 06:19 PM
I love the new avatar.
When I saw that I LMAO. Well done.

SEAWOLF97
12-19-2011, 06:45 PM
I love the new avatar.
When I saw that I LMAO. Well done.

thanx ...the backstory is just as good.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32229-JBL-L250-New-in-Boxes-Walnut-pair-on-ebay&p=325510&viewfull=1#post325510

Fort Knox
12-20-2011, 04:03 PM
Actually its a 2441 ...

Built the equivalent of a 4333 3 way system in an L200 cabinet with a 2234, 2426 mid with short horn, and 2405 slot driver.
Bought a 2397 JBL smith horn and put the 2426 on it - sounded better than the metal exponential horn had,
but it was grey and ugly, so I asked around and had the walnut horn made to replace it.

Then another friend said the 2 inch drivers were better than the 1 inch ones,
so I found a pair of 2441s, pulled the 2426 drivers and adapters and put the 2441s in place.
Didn't sound worse (grin) ... and fit my budget.
(Nice as they may be, I'm not going to buy berylium diaphrams any time soon).

Currently driving the system with a loaner Jolida SJ-102 tube amp -
it plays them surprisingly well -
Klezmer music & Aja sounded very nice ...

As Rolf says, its really all about music

I'll have admit ..from the pic ..those horns do look like a "work of art";)

Fort Knox
12-20-2011, 04:15 PM
I get that all the time. Except with the "like" in there. But Rolf is right, it's really all about the music. I'm going to leave my keyboard and listen to the other side of a RCA Dynaflex, which were supposed to sound horrible, but I love my Dynaflex records!

You sound like a wacky guy......I've never measured anything ....I just hook it up ...and audition the "stuff" with the tunes..;)