Do I need more 2226s?

[GCT]

HI

Our PA consists of:
2 x 2241 18" Subs
2 x 2226 15" Mids
1 x 2445 4" Horn

PER SIDE

I'm finding it is too small for outdoor gigs so I'm thinking of adding 2 more 2226 per side. (Can get a good deal on 2226s)

Does this sound like the best move? To my ears we are lacking mids at full volume but I haven't measured the SPL levels to confirm. I know the horns are well below max volume.

Any thoughts greatly appreciated
Cheers

GCT

[Lee in Montreal]

I'd get more subs. :D

Lee

[Eaulive]

Hard to say... what kind of horn is on your 2445s? what crossover points? What power are you feeding them? What kind of enclosures? Full range? Bi-amp? Tri-amp?

[GCT]

I'd get more subs. :D

Lee
What's your reasoning?

[GCT]

The subs get 400w + 600w from 2 stereo amps
Mids get 950w 4 ohm
Horns 150w 8 ohms (but set at No 4)
Per Side
Subs and Mids are normally limiting i.e. max power but horns are running at lower power
The flares are beymas that can work down to 500Hz

Crossover at 80-120 and 1200-2000

Hope this helps.

[Lee in Montreal]

What's your reasoning?

You usually needs tons more lower bass (2241) than upper bass/mid (2226) :eek: You could easily run two 2241 per 2226. And then beg for two more 2241...

[Allanvh5150]

Most systems with a 2445 on top would run 2 x 15"s and what ever subs you want to put under them, from an SR point of view.

Allan.

[Lee in Montreal]

GCT any picture of our system?

[Eaulive]

The subs get 400w + 600w from 2 stereo amps
Mids get 950w 4 ohm
Horns 150w 8 ohms (but set at No 4)
Per Side
Subs and Mids are normally limiting i.e. max power but horns are running at lower power
The flares are beymas that can work down to 500Hz

Crossover at 80-120 and 1200-2000

Hope this helps.

I'd say your system is under powered, try connecting your 2241 and 2226 to an amplifier that can supply 1.2kW per driver, or 2.4kW at 4ohms.

2226 and 2241 are rated 600W, which means to have proper dynamics and punch, I would feed 1.2kW

I feed 450W to my 2225 which are rated 200W and they are very happy.

[GCT]

Hope this helps
GCT

[Lee in Montreal]

That was a massive chunk of missing info. So. You are doing sound reinforcement for bands? I was under the impression for the past couple of months that you were into a sound system to play music and dance to it... :eek:

[GCT]

So it looks like the general consensus is more 2241's.
I realize the amps are small but the big Crowns are very expensive. Any advice on 1200w amps value for money?

[GCT]

That was a massive chunk of missing info. So. You are doing sound reinforcement for bands? I was under the impression for the past couple of months that you were into a sound system to play music and dance to it... :eek:

I have asked advice in the past for studio monitoring, but this project is SR. When I started on this project after other speaker building projects, I was surprised that they crossover so low. I had expected 300Hz half power point. The 2241's are well capable of 800Hz in terms of frequency response but SR seems to be a bit different as people want thump with their SPL.

Anyone tried SR with 300Hz crossover on a 2241 in a flat box?

GCT

[Lee in Montreal]

So it looks like the general consensus is more 2241's.
I realize the amps are small but the big Crowns are very expensive. Any advice on 1200w amps value for money?

The consensus is NOT for more 2241 woofers. You say you miss mid frequencies. But which ones? Which range? How did you set the system? Have you tried changing the crossover points? Are you sure you can get 500Hz out of your horns? They look more like 1Khz. Maybe it is where you are missing your mids... Also, with guitars, perhaps you should look for 15" drivers with aluminum domes.

BTW For SR, I would indeed croosover the 2241 much higher. Perhaps 250/300Hz, which would help unstress the 2226 and allow them to be pushed harder. Nonetheless, I think you may be missing something between the 2226 and the 2245. What works for a discotheque might not work for a band...

[GCT]

We're just getting a 31 band eq and know that the mids are lagging by 5ms so a speaker management system is required.

I'm not sure eqactly what frequencies. Hope to measure it with Smaartlive soon. It's the engineer who says he's lacking Mids. Maybe next weekend I can set it up.

The question would still be - for the future, It's not big enough for big events, even optimized, (we have to hire a bigger system) so where can we go next? We have 5K of speakers. Next step?

GCT

[Eaulive]

You're willing to add more speakers but you're weary about the cost of amplifiers? :blink:
If you add more speakers you will need to purchase amps for them, for now the speakers you have are already underpowered so honestly I think you're following the wrong path.

Change your amps for more powerful units or double what you have and bridge them, setup everything properly and then decide if you have to buy more speakers.

I don't recognize the speakers you have, it looks like the equivalent of an SR4733 right? this calls for at least 2kW at 4 ohms per cabinet, I would get 2.5kW myself and be done with it.

Remember that in this type of application, long runs of powerlines causes serious brownouts and an amplifier rated for xx numbers of watts at 230V will drop seriously fast if underpowered. In such cases you're maybe getting 600W from your supposed 950W amps !

More power give you more dynamics if not more SPLs, it will make you sound better.

[edgewound]

So it looks like the general consensus is more 2241's.
I realize the amps are small but the big Crowns are very expensive. Any advice on 1200w amps value for money?

Look into FACE Audio amps. Great value, great build quality/reliability.http://www.faceaudio.com/

Bottom line is....for live sound coverage for what you're doing, you need to at least double the size of your system. Gotta have plenty of headroom available so the system will be somewhat trouble free...and sound good.

[GCT]

Speakers are cheap to build. Good amps are not . We're just starting out so we're trying to get moving with very little money and have to buy a mountain of gear. The speakers are all ebay and homemade, amps ,some are repaired,what we had or Behringer. Still we have to compete -so many companies around hungry for work with big rigs, so on paper it also has to work - If someone has a 5k rig and someone has a 10k rig, no-one asks if it's time aligned. We're competing with a martin rig -10k but actually it's only 7.2K but it also looks bigger. The boss want's a bigger rig. I agree with the amps, but in the short term we probably get more for our money adding subs or mid cabs. The question is which.

Will check out the Face Audio amps.

I will measure the outputs and see where the weakest band is when I get a bit of time and a helping hand.

Cheers
GCT

[Lee in Montreal]

I agree with the amps, but in the short term we probably get more for our money adding subs or mid cabs.

If you want to add speakers, you have no choice but to also add amps... ;) For the outside, perhaps you could look at horn loaded speakers to improve your efficiency. JBL's good old 4560 is till a good speaker for mid bass and mids. Would work great with 2226 drivers. Shown below with 500Hz 2350 horns.

BTW As quoted from Scotty

"IMO, the 4560s can still work well today, and I also think that with good subs, and HF horns and even tweeters, one can get more out of less gear and power than it will take to achieve the same with ported direct radiators alone. And even then, IMO, the sound that comes from horn loading... the snare drum, the drums, ... vocals, keyboards, bass guitar, percussion, etc."

http://www.auduo-1.com/newgoods/I-J/JBL/2446J/002.jpg


http://kalkan0.free.fr/JBL 4560 PLAN.jpg

Stack them and paint them the colour you want... ;-)

http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/1191/greenjblcabs.jpg
http://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/07/962/96262/h.jpg

[GCT]

I always liked the sound of 4560s. Down side is you've got to carry them!
Thanks for the info.

[Eaulive]

If you want to add speakers, you have no choice but to also add amps... ;) For the outside, perhaps you could look at horn loaded speakers to improve your efficiency. JBL's good old 4560 is till a good speaker for mid bass and mids. Would work great with 2226 drivers. Shown below with 500Hz 2350 horns.

Stack them and paint them the colour you want... ;-)

As a matter of fact, with the new hype about "green" technology, we may see the return of smaller amps and more efficient speakers :D

[Lee in Montreal]

As a matter of fact, with the new hype about "green" technology, we may see the return of smaller amps and more efficient speakers :D

Oh nooooo!!! Does it mean we are back to Crown's DC150? :eek:

@ GCT - You can probably find a dozen 4560 empty cabinets for close to free if you are lucky. Load them with 2226 or try some aluminum domed drivers for even better high mids. Compare. Those cabinets are not that heavy and are easy to stack. Efficiency is around 102db in the midrange. You can probably use four 4560 for one 2445 loaded horn.

[Eaulive]

Oh nooooo!!! Does it mean we are back to Crown's DC150? :eek:

Not at all, today the technology gives us very efficient class D amplifiers, it's the speakers that are less efficient.

[Lee in Montreal]

Not at all, today the technology gives us very efficient class D amplifiers, it's the speakers that are less efficient.

Yeah. I was just kidding. New amps weight close to nothing, and very efficient. I wished I could find a Tn series Yamaha. ;)

[Lee in Montreal]

Down side is you've got to carry them!

Think about the following: if one 4560 is 3db more efficient than you current mids cabinet, it means that ONE 4560 can replace TWO of your current cabinets. It also cuts your needs for amps by TWO. The preceding reasoning makes them much lighter to carry than you think :D

[GCT]

OK -It seems to be clearer that a mid flare is a good move. What's the idea behind the flare helping to give more efficient mids? I can see that the time alignment would be better but with a loudspeaker management system you get that via electronics.

[Lee in Montreal]

What's the idea behind the flare helping to give more efficient mids?

Horn loading. About 6db of it (4 times louder - replacing 4 regular enclosures in that frequency range) from 200Hz.

53918

[GCT]

OK Thanks very much for all the info. I can see clearly how we can improve our system for the future. We can probably hire better amps and see how much more kick we can get. I like the flare idea but I don't make the final decision on that one. Will keep my eyes and ears open.

Many Thanks
GCT

[GCT]

I measured the system and the horn works well at 500HZ -covering the hole that the 2226 leave above that. With EQ it sounds OK but if you add a 12" at 200-500 there is a noticable difference in the quality of the voice even with no EQ.

Conclusion - Need 12" mids at some point.

Thanks for all your help

GCT

[Fort Knox]

We're just getting a 31 band eq and know that the mids are lagging by 5ms so a speaker management system is required.

I'm not sure eqactly what frequencies. Hope to measure it with Smaartlive soon. It's the engineer who says he's lacking Mids. Maybe next weekend I can set it up.

The question would still be - for the future, It's not big enough for big events, even optimized, (we have to hire a bigger system) so where can we go next? We have 5K of speakers. Next step?

GCT

You can't put enough speakers in an outdoor gig...

[GCT]

That's true. Pockets are empty just now, but also we want to optimize what we already have.

Cheers
GCT

[Hans Bleeker]

57478
You can't put enough speakers in an outdoor gig...