Digital or analog crossover ?

[ginetto61]

I apologize if the issue has been already discussed here
I have become very very interested in active crossovers after reading an interesting article comparing active and passive ones :eek:
The same article states the superiority of digital crossovers on analogue ones :confused:
Could you give me your point of view or, eventually, redirect me to any old 3Ds on this issue ?
Thank you very much indeed.:D
Regards,

Gino

[Mr. Widget]

I am not sure there is a specific discussion on just this topic, but indirectly there have been numerous discussions about various digital and analog crossovers.

I have used numerous inexpensive analog crossovers as well as the DEQX digital and a handful of expensive analog crossovers. In general digital offers much more control and is more flexible, but I don't think any commercially available digital electronic crossovers are as sonically invisible as the best analog units are... so far. They have gotten better and better, but right now in 2011, I would still go with analog. The possible exception would be if I used a digital crossover with digital outputs feeding an appropriate number of sonically superior DACs... Bryston BDA-1, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC, or something along these lines... but at that point you are spending some "real money".


Widget

[ginetto61]

I am not sure there is a specific discussion on just this topic, but indirectly there have been numerous discussions about various digital and analog crossovers.
I have used numerous inexpensive analog crossovers as well as the DEQX digital and a handful of expensive analog crossovers. In general digital offers much more control and is more flexible, but I don't think any commercially available digital electronic crossovers are as sonically invisible as the best analog units are... so far. They have gotten better and better, but right now in 2011, I would still go with analog.
The possible exception would be if I used a digital crossover with digital outputs feeding an appropriate number of sonically superior DACs... Bryston BDA-1, Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC, or something along these lines... but at that point you are spending some "real money".
Widget

Thank you very much indeed for your valuable and kind reply
I would like to stay on the cheap side. I will follow discussion on analogue units then.
By the way the feature that intrigues me about digital X-over is the possibility to have very steep slopes
But I do not understand what makes a 48dB/octave filter so much better than a 24dB/octave ( the maximum for most of analogue units).
Regards,
gino

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=Mr. Widget;320377] ... sonically invisible... Widget

I swear ... the last one :o:
This "sonically invisible" is making me wondering :confused:
Do you rely on listening tests or measurements to assess this property ?
I feel this is a topic issue in general.
Thank you very much indeed.
Regards,:D
gino

[Mr. Widget]

You can look at a laundry list of beautiful measurements and still find a piece of electronics sounds hard nasally and compressed. You have to listen. Ideally with a highly revealing system and in a good room.


Widget

[ginetto61]

[QUOTE=Mr. Widget;321256]
You can look at a laundry list of beautiful measurements and still find a piece of electronics sounds hard nasally and compressed.
You have to listen.
Ideally with a highly revealing system and in a good room.
Widget

Thank you sincerely Mr Widget ! nice and clear
I asked because I read somewhere here in the forum of people playing with square waves to asses a component's transparency.
But I definitely understand the point
I am a little sad but I have to accept the reality
Kind regards, :)
gino

[Titanium Dome]

There are often two (or more) paths to the same destination. Some will say "This is the better path because it's short, straight, and gets you there the quickest." Others will say, "This is the better path because it follows a meandering stream, has beautiful flowers, features signing birds, and has an aura of arcadian beauty and pastoral romanticism about it." Someone else will say, "This is the better path because it goes high among the peaks, with grand vistas and shocking drops, and it enervates the soul and energizes the body."

Mr. Widget and I like different paths, but we at least agree on the methodology: listen.

[Mr. Widget]

Mr. Widget and I like different paths, but we at least agree on the methodology: listen.I'd argue that we diverge less than we agree. It's not like one of us prefers tiny "full range" Lowthers and the other a full range JBL system after all. ;)

I do prefer two-channel and you appreciate surround sound and are more tolerant of digital processing, but otherwise I think we are frequently in agreement.


Widget

[ginetto61]

Hi Gentlemen !
I have just read an interview to John Dunlavy
He is a very techy speakers designer
And when I think I have found a designer who completely relies on measurements :applaud:
... he introduces this "final speakers voicing by ear" :blink:
I tend to be techy ... may be because I trust very little my own ears :(
Let's say that what confuses me mostly is the idea of a component that measures very well and performs poorly in a listening test
But really does a component like this exist ?
I doubt
Have nice listenings !
Kind regards,
gino

[Robh3606]

You have to try this stuff and make up your own mind. You get peoples opinions on the net and frankly all of them, including mine, are on shacky ground as there is no frame of reference. If you have actualy sat down with someone and listened to a system together then at least the two of you know what you are talking about.

As with anything it's all about implimentation and set-up. You have people on both sides of the fence and you have to wonder how well the disatisfied people did their homework of if they even bothered to. The nets a great place for information but putting weight into another persons listening impressions is very much a grey area.

Rob:)

[Mr. Widget]

You have to try this stuff and make up your own mind. You get peoples opinions on the net and frankly all of them, including mine, are on shacky ground...:yes:

Of course I am always right, but then if one were to slog through my thousands of posts on this forum, one would discover 180° shifts in some areas as I have gained experience and situations have changed.

Back to the question about measurements though; every successful audio designer I have met and spoken with over the years uses careful lab measurements and then ultimately his ears. Trust your ears, they are the final arbiter... and if you find you can't hear a difference between a more costly and less costly item, or a difference between a more convenient or less convenient item, why not choose the less costly or more convenient item?


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

:yes:


if you find you can't hear a difference between a more costly and less costly item, or a difference between a more convenient or less convenient item, why not choose the less costly or more convenient item?


Widget

Because the more costly item has better build quality and durability? Because the less convenient item has greater future utility? Because your significant other likes black rather than brown? Because one fits and the other doesn't? Because LCD displays and LEDs that flash are cooler than stupid sliding levers and dumb rotary knobs that don't even have fake chrome on them?

Of course, I agree with your reasoning and have occasionally followed your advice, but your statement was begging the question, so I donated some queries out of consideration for the begging.

Generally, I like to get a lot of stuff and ignorantly mess around with it to see what happens. Everyone here already had that opinion, so I saved us all some time. :rootn_tootn:

[JeffW]

Because the more costly item has better build quality and durability?

So long as it don't have no billet aluminum faceplate :p

[Titanium Dome]

So long as it don't have no billet aluminum faceplate :p

Yes, we don't need no stinking billet faceplate! :rotfl:

[Mr. Widget]

Because the more costly item has better build quality and durability? Because the less convenient item has greater future utility? Because your significant other likes black rather than brown? Because one fits and the other doesn't? Because LCD displays and LEDs that flash are cooler than stupid sliding levers and dumb rotary knobs that don't even have fake chrome on I didn't go there because I thought it obvious... ;)


Widget

[Titanium Dome]

I didn't go there because I thought it obvious... ;)


Widget

Everything I buy has to have at least one LED, or I don't want it.

If you remember that Pink Floyd disc set that had the red flashing LED in it, I almost cried when it finally died, and the CDs' sound seemed less "live." I bought a couple of blue LED headbands and put them on my K2s. This really makes them sound cool. I think there's something about blue light that interacts with the Be and Mg drivers' output that's just magical.

[grumpy]

LOL... until I read about the blue LEDs ... I can't stand them. They're unnatural.
They make my eyes hurt. Could be the racks of computers I have to deal with
regularly, with their damn blue projector bulb LEDs, have damaged my ability
to appreciate them. Or I just don't like them. Did I mention I don't like blue LEDs?
I really don't like them.

[Eaulive]

LOL... until I read about the blue LEDs ... I can't stand them. They're unnatural.
They make my eyes hurt. Could be the racks of computers I have to deal with
regularly, with their damn blue projector bulb LEDs, have damaged my ability
to appreciate them. Or I just don't like them. Did I mention I don't like blue LEDs?
I really don't like them.

There's a scientific explanation for this. The human eye is very sensitive to blueish light but lacks detail resolution at this frequency. However it's less sensitive to redish light but the detail resolution is excellent, that's why you can read under a candlelight and could not under a weak neon light. That's also why the blue leds always seem to be out of focus and make you want to rub your eyes.

Many years ago Europeans had yellow headlights on their cars, good detail resolution, less glare for the oncoming drivers, now those stupid xenon lights are a real PITA for the one who's not using them, and they look so bright but don't render the details and shadows like the good old halogen.

[grumpy]

Well there you go. My fix is usually electrical tape.

Attention: analog or digital crossover industrial designers...
(as though they'd be reading here)
please limit the use of blue LED indicators to a minimum, always
using more of green if you must... red -and- blue is 'right out'.
... and a diffuse/translucent emitting surface really helps to tame those 'blues' :)

(ok, so did I tie the thread back in?)

Use the right tool for the job; if you have a choice, use the one you like.

[JeffW]

I bought this HP computer monitor sight unseen at WalMart because I needed a monitor right now.

It has a bright blue "Power" LED front and center. Like you need an indicator to tell if your monitor is on. Black tape.

TiDome likes them thar blue LEDs so much because they often come embedded in the billet aluminum faceplates he's so fond of :applaud:

(And don't tell anyone, but with 7 amps, a preamp, a phono stage, and a 4 way crossover, I don't want no more damn blue LEDs. But I didn't buy the stuff because it had blue LEDs, or billet aluminum faceplates. Sometimes it boils down to


Because the more costly item has better build quality and durability? , plus it sounds good).

[Ken Pachkowsky]

I am not sure there is a specific discussion on just this topic, but indirectly there have been numerous discussions about various digital and analog crossovers.

I have used numerous inexpensive analog crossovers as well as the DEQX digital

Widget

Had to chime in on this....There is a huge difference between the Deqx you had and the current offering. They have done a great job in HDP-3 and continue to upgrade it all the time. As you know.....I like the product but am not fussy about the company. That being said, I would have no trouble suggesting someone purchase one. Marchand builds some great active crossovers in the 2-3k range.

Nice to see you guys are alive and kicking...be well.

Ken

[Radley]

I'm by no means an expert, but I think you have to remember that digital audio has limitations. The frequency response of the A/D and D/A converters could be a deciding factor. Most DSP's are 20Hz to 20kHz. Ask yourself is that enough? I've A/B'd my home system analog to digital and I must say I much prefer listening to the analog. Although, digital is very good at notching out an offending frequencies. I think the good analog stuff will have a wider response.

I remember the great mixing console designer, Jim Gamble saying his consoles would go out to 75kHz and was looking to extend that out to 200kHz.

Radley

[Titanium Dome]

This BSS unit is 10Hz to 40kHz (+ or - 2.5dB). My hearing is 22Hz to 13kHz. I know I can feel frequencies below my hearing threshold, and I firmly believe that frequencies above my hearing threshold impact my overall listening experience, but 40kHz is plenty of room and is the outer limit of many speakers and beyond the limits of most.

[boputnam]

I remember the great mixing console designer, Jim Gamble saying his consoles would go out to 75kHz and was looking to extend that out to 200kHz.Lucky enough to call Gamble a friend, I cannot critique your specific quote but conceptually you are spot on. It's all about "headroom" - both from a perspective of gain and frequency response. If either is limited too close to your working parameters there likely will be audible consequences.

That said, the single biggest issue in this discussion is the AD/DA converters. The "good" ones are dammned expensive, and still may not meet the expectations of the audiophile. Me? While not an audiophile, when using best-of-class, I'm pretty pleased with the sound of those DSP's, and the benefits of their technology.

That said, I have yet to deploy them in the home... :o:

[Ian Mackenzie]

I must say I much prefer listening to the analogI think you answered your own question thereSomething else to weigh up is the high level of skill required to exactly match the active crossover be it digital or analogue existing passive network.Many active crossover users feel the analogue active network is not a good as the existing passive network.Overall the ear is very sensitivty to amplitude differences and if the analogue or digital active network does not exactly track the the voltage drive of the existing passive network it won't be optimal and you wont be entirely happy.Some factory systems like certain JBL models have published voltage drives and the correct set up for a JBL network. The 4343 , 4344 / 4345 and 4430/4435 are a case in point.Otherwise it can take months of adjustment assuming the active crossover allows for fine adjustment.If you are messing around with a diy system from scratch the same issue applies. Therefore you ask what it the benefit?Mostly the 1st crossover point from the woofer to the mid as the woofer and the mid will have better damping. But uness the active crossover is utterly transparent you may also detect other differences in the mid range and top end fidelity.One member replaced just about every part of an advanced analgue active crossover in the quest to improve the sound reproduction.If you are using the loudspeaker for so called hifi you will find this a a tedious and often confusing journey and quite often it is more cost effective and time efficient to go buy a better loudspeaker if that is what you are seeking.