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Dualbios
09-15-2011, 04:47 AM
hey guys well I'm going to try my hand at making the system out lined by drew clues on here
http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/system.htm

Now for drivers I'm looking at buying all brand new

Horn - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2382a.pdf
Compression driver - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2446.pdf
Midrange - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2012h.pdf
Woofers - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2226.pdf
sub woofers - http://www.jblpro.com/pub/components/2242.pdf

will these be fine substitutes?

I'm looking at building 3 towers for LCR and 2 subs

what amplifiers would u guys recommend for running these drivers as i read now that crown are now Chinese manufactured and am not 100% of quality?

would there be an issue with only using a single 15" woofer in each or will the efficiency make an imbalance to the horns and mid?

i was wondering if adding a JBL 2405 would make a large difference, as my mate is currently gathering his drivers and he swears buy using them as he fears the 2" horns wont go all the way to kHz?


Any hints and tips would be great i have a couple of like minded mates living near me that are very keen to help me out, and i have access to a CNC machine for making the boxes.


sorry for the noob questions just starting out.

pos
09-15-2011, 06:26 AM
Hello,

Great project, you will certainly have a lot of fun!!
What crossover are you planning to use? Do you have measurement tools?

As for the amplifier, take a look at the Ram-Audio S serie (4 ways amps).
These would be perfect for the top 3 drivers (for example one S3004 amp per tower) and a class AB/H amp for the subwoofers (Ram-Audio Bux for exemple, or any big old crown or crest amp).

Concerning the 2405, you can always add them afterward if you feel you need them. You will have to keep them at ear level though, as they are very directive (almost laser beam) in the vertical plan.

1audiohack
09-15-2011, 06:52 AM
Hi Dualbios;

Welcome to the forum!

I have been collecting everything to build this system too. All that I lack is the 2382's.

Too bad the 2227's are so hard to find. I have them for my project and I am always looking for more of them. I guess the 2226 is the best currently available substitute. 2220's would work well I believe but will require even more EQ than the 2227's. I think the 2220's sound more like the 2227's by the way but they are kind of fragile.

About one 15 vs two, I thought about that a lot and would bet in a home system it would be enough however I am going to build this as originally designed just to see what it sounds like as designed. In the end I'm sure mine will have 2405's on top as well, I really don't like the sound of the 2450 / 2446 much above 10 kHz.

As for the the rest for me, a DBX4800 with two Crown CE 4000's for 2242's two CE 2000's for the 2227's, and two CE 1000's for the 2123's and 2446's.

It just sounds like fun.

Do share your progress with us.

Baron030
09-15-2011, 07:17 AM
Hi Dualbios

I too have been inspired by Drew Daniels. Concerning your question about needing a 2405 or not. The answer is yes, you will need the 2405 drivers. The 2382a/2446h combination has a definite roll-off above 10 KHz. So, you will want the 2405s.

Since, I happen to have first hand experience will most of the driver that you are thinking of using in your project. You will want to check out the following link as it may answer a few of your questions.

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?11664 (http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?11664)

Baron030:)

Robh3606
09-15-2011, 09:19 AM
Hello Dualbios

Your drivers should work just fine.



would there be an issue with only using a single 15" woofer in each or will the efficiency make an imbalance to the horns and mid?


No not at all. If you run active you just use the amplifier or driver gain knobs to balance things out. Which ever one gives you the best S/N ratio. That system inspired me years ago to do my own scaled down active version.

In it's current version I have LE-14 subs for stereo E-145 midwoofers, 2123 midranges and up top I have 2435's on PTH1010 waveguides. When I run them as part of my HT I have an Array 880 center and dual LFE B-380 subs with modded L20T rears.



i was wondering if adding a JBL 2405 would make a large difference, as my mate is currently gathering his drivers and he swears buy using them as he fears the 2" horns wont go all the way to kHz?

Depends my 2435ís donít really go out to 20k. They are rollIng off above 10K but sound fine as is. You are going to listen and see for yourself.


what amplifiers would u guys recommend for running these drivers as i read now that crown are now Chinese manufactured and am not 100% of quality?


I use all older Crowns PS series. I like them. They sound good, are built to last and donít use any fans. Fans can be a real issue if you cannot issolate the amps in a closet away from the listening room. I have PS-200ís on the E-145. 2123 and 2435 so 100 watts a driver. The subs have 250 watts on the Le-14's and 325 watts on the B380's. When I design a system I look at the power requirements to meet my max SPL goal. As long as I can do that all is well and good. I could use larger amps but I don't see the point as long as the Peak SPL goal is met.

Have fun! I had a great time upgrading and using this system over the years. When you are done and drop on a movie are you going to be in for a surprise. It will knock your socks off!

Rob:)

Dualbios
09-17-2011, 03:00 AM
Hello,

Great project, you will certainly have a lot of fun!!
What crossover are you planning to use? Do you have measurement tools?

As for the amplifier, take a look at the Ram-Audio S serie (4 ways amps).
These would be perfect for the top 3 drivers (for example one S3004 amp per tower) and a class AB/H amp for the subwoofers (Ram-Audio Bux for exemple, or any big old crown or crest amp).

Concerning the 2405, you can always add them afterward if you feel you need them. You will have to keep them at ear level though, as they are very directive (almost laser beam) in the vertical plan.

I'm trying to find out if the is a importer of the ram audio amplifiers in Australia,a as they seem to be a perfect fit.

The 2405 ATM I think I will leave it till I hear the system maybe even borrow my mates to trial, as I'm also wondering do I run them actively aswell or just passive off the horn?

For processing I was looking at using the Behringer dcx2496 pre amp I'm looking at a denon network receiver will get part number for it it's the one with XLr pre outs.

pos
09-17-2011, 03:09 AM
I'm trying to find out if the is a importer of the ram audio amplifiers in Australia,a as they seem to be a perfect fit.

There seems to be one: PULSE AUDIO VISUAL www.pulseav.com.au (http://www.pulseav.com.au/)
http://www.ramaudio.com/contact.htm

Dualbios
09-17-2011, 03:25 AM
Dhc 80.3 integra pre amplifier sorry guys.

Dualbios
09-19-2011, 12:58 AM
emails are flying back and forth chasing quotes. actually have my local supplier of the jbl drivers trying to talk me out of it was an interested talk non the less

hjames
09-19-2011, 02:42 AM
His name is actually Drew Daniels not Drew Clues, the kids TV show ...

Drew Daniels passed away last year ...

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?29966-Drew-Daniels

http://mixonline.com/news/drew_daniels_obituary_0212/

Dualbios
09-19-2011, 04:21 AM
yeah mate, just used the title that was on the front systems page. amazing man

Dualbios
10-18-2011, 04:55 AM
just got my 3 2226 drivers :-) one step closer

Dualbios
12-06-2011, 02:24 AM
struggling to find any 2012h drivers, seem to find a lot of 2123 drivers for the mids and only able to find 2405 drivers in the states :-( going to be a slow progress job

gferrell
12-06-2011, 04:46 PM
[QUOTE=hjames;320495]His name is actually Drew Daniels not Drew Clues, the kids TV show ...

I believe that's Blues Clues the childrens show on Nick Jr. My grandchildren watch it.

hjames
12-06-2011, 06:51 PM
[QUOTE=hjames;320495]His name is actually Drew Daniels not Drew Clues, the kids TV show ...

I believe that's Blues Clues the childrens show on Nick Jr. My grandchildren watch it.
Right - its a play on the words ... grin

Dualbios
12-09-2011, 05:02 PM
pics of the 2226 woofers

Dualbios
12-09-2011, 09:40 PM
well scrap that, :-) found a good supply

Dualbios
12-15-2011, 01:07 AM
Hey guys just wondering what new aged subwoofer I should look at using for the system will be for movies and music

A9X
12-17-2011, 10:02 PM
Also being an Aussie, I feel for you in trying to secure some of the parts. However, as designed the DC system is overkill for any sort of domestic situation and more suited to a small commercial theatre. Having had many of the components in use in systems both at home and in my (now defunct) PA, I wouldn't build it for home. It's also an old design and there have been some developments worth incorporating.

As designed it would play very loud and clean (DD warns of this), but it won't really go deep, not at least deep as modern HT enthusiasts would interpret it. As you are not exactly cloning it and do not need to use a passive xover designed for specific drivers and configurations, use it as inspiration and go from there.

As you have 2226's, I'll start from there. I used these in my PA ported to 40Hz and they were excellent, even when simply plonked into the living room. If you are using subs for HT/music, then they won't need to be used below 60-80Hz where a dedicated LF driver will serve better and give more output because of potentially more volume displacement. The 2226's could easily be run sealed in 80L or so and EQ'd to get flat to 60-80Hz, and rolled off steeply by the DCX.

Above the 2226, the 2123 is an excellent choice. I ran these in my PA for years, and tried them in a couple of home systems. I bought 4 more new to originally use in a Bouska-esque design before getting the current AE drivers. I built some active 3 ways out of scrap MDF and used them for some time before moving. They were 2225/2123/DE250/JBL Ewave WG so I have some experience with similar designs. The almost identical PA used 2226/2123/Beyma CP380M on Yamaha horns.

I have no experience of the 2012, but if you can get 2123 in VGC, I'm not sure you'll find all that much difference between them in domestic use.

As pointed out in the DD article, the directivity match between the horns and 10 below helps eliminate some of the 'horn sound'. Domestically, I see no need for a 2" driver to cover from 1200hz up. The DE250 will do that fine on the correct WG, is a terrific driver and $US123 + postage new from PSS, whom I recommend highly.
http://www.prosoundservice.com/m9/BC-DE250--b-c-de250-1-horn-hf-driver-8-ohm.html

I have used the 2446/5 in previous fully horn loaded systems, and didn't like them all that much with the original Ti diaphragms. The Al radians seemed less splashy sounding, but my measurement system wasn't as good back then to define why. I suspect break up from 8k or so up. I've also had the 2405 and never understood why they were popular. Similarly the 2380/2382 flares, old fashioned slotted diffractive horns. They're OK until you hear a good radial or WG.
Mine are still in storage after I went to the BMS 4590 coaxial and built some Yuichi Arai A290 flares. The 2446 sounded better on these, but not as good as the BMS.

For a flare, JBL sell a number of PT waveguides (WG) as spares. I'm currently using the small 12x6" version the late great Zilch got for me, but will be replacing them in the NY with the cast version of these in a similar design to the 3 way above (4 x surrounds). they'll allow a lower xover than the 1700Hz the protos use, down to 1200 or so (I hope).
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguides/seos/seos12.html - $US49 for the cast version/ $US125 for the fibreglass.

Actual pic
http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z239/Scaper-S2k/poured_wave.jpg from here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21333428#post21333428) and prices here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21333501#post21333501)

So with the above, you can play loud and very clean from 80-18k, with available and affordable parts and build them in quite compact enclosures - much, much smaller than the original DC design.

For subs that will go low and loud, you have very few options in Australia. The recently released Mach 5 Pi18 (http://www.affordabledrivers.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=26&zenid=aadaca604b61917b32e8a452bdd73003) looks like a great driver and I'll be buying 2 for the system when the container arrives in Brisvegas in March or so. Depending upon the size and design of the box, you can go very loud and deep. Mine will be 400L and 13Hz tune.

Crossover: though a fan of the DCX (I have 3, modified) for a 4 way system, or a 3 way and simply use the AVR for xover and processing they are excellent. Also worthy of mention is the MiniDSP 2x4 balanced ($125ea) and buy 3 with the 4 way plug in and run one each for L/C/R.
http://www.minidsp.com/products/minidspkits/2-x-in-4-x-out

For amps I use Yamaha P series pro units, and have some Jands as spares. The Behringer EP series would do great for the subs and 2226 and the A500 for the 10" and 1". Fan mods for the EP are plentiful on the web and easy to do. Australian made Quest amps are brilliant, unbreakable and can usually be had on ebay new or used for good money. They'll also need fan mods.

Summary:
LF: Pi18 sealed or ported, enclosures to suit and EQ'd <80Hz
Separate enclosures to rest of system to allow placement flexibility.
MB: JBL2226 sealed and EQ'd in 80L or so net. 80-300Hz
MR: JBL2123 sealed in 10L+ 300-1200hz
HF: B&C DE250 on SEOS12 1200Hz up
Xover: 3 MiniDSP balanced 2x4
Amps: what you can get to suit.

1audiohack
01-08-2012, 10:32 PM
Just a note on my pursuit of the Drew Daniels system, I stopped cold when I got to the 2382's, tried the 2380's, then the 2385's and one 2386, and soon decided these are not the horns for my house.

I'm back to the GTI 1800's, 2227's, 2450Be's on the Woody's and 2405's. A DBX4800 drives the K2's, a K1 and a D45 and I think I'm going to keep it this way a while though I am missing the crack of the 2123's, the integration of the 2227 to the 290 horn is smooth and easy. Sure could use a pair of 1500Al's!

Mr. Widget
01-08-2012, 11:39 PM
Just a note on my pursuit of the Drew Daniels system, I stopped cold when I got to the 2382's...Interestingly I was cruising through the Lansing Heritage site today... hadn't checked it out in a few years... amazing how much info there is in there to forget. :o: In any event I ended up checking out the infamous Drew Daniels system once again... those PA horns definitely drop me cold. I wouldn't want them in my living room... of course realize he designed that system back in the 1990s. JBL has certainly come a long way since then!


Widget

Robh3606
01-09-2012, 05:57 AM
Just a note on my pursuit of the Drew Daniels system, I stopped cold when I got to the 2382's, tried the 2380's, then the 2385's and one 2386, and soon decided these are not the horns for my house.


When I did my scaled back version I used the 2123 with a 2426 on a 2344 horn instead. I though that since the crossover point was up over 1K I really didn't need a 2" driver to cover that range. I also liked the 2344 quite a bit more than the other horns at the time.

Rob:)

Dualbios
02-29-2012, 07:07 PM
So if I was to go a p audio ph-316 and an adapter and 2426 would that be better suited

1audiohack
02-29-2012, 09:30 PM
I think it partially depends on how loud you might be inclined to listen. I have and like the 2426/2344 combo and have two systems that employ them but, the one inch drivers don't play loud enough clean enough for me on a "main" system. It's the drivers as I have tried 2427's on my 2" throat horns with similar results.

In working through the 2382's I just got curious and also bought and tried the 2380's, 2385's and finally 2386's and have to say that there are better sounding horns for home. I have a pair of A290's (right Woody?) that sound great from a whisper to dangerously loud. Yup, it's big drivers for me.

Dualbios
03-01-2012, 03:59 AM
Good info I will have to try both mocked up in cheap boxes to test then

subwoof
03-01-2012, 07:08 AM
yeah the one inch just doesn't get the SPL no matter how you do the filtering...it's a distortion thing.

If you want a big horn, and the smoothness, look at a pair of 2352's with the 1.5" 2451 or 2447 drivers on them. You can run them all day and night without fatigue, great performance all the way down to 500 and not that deep and have flat fronts.

A guy on ebay had a dozen recently for 125 each or best offer. I have a pair of painted 2447's from a church with no need but shipping to oz will kill you...:(

sub

Dualbios
03-02-2012, 11:28 PM
whats everyones thoughts on these? http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/digmoda-amplifiers/digmoda-ddc552-mono-plate-amplifier-3-channel/

thanks for all the help so far guys. subwoof u have a pm aswell

pos
03-03-2012, 02:07 AM
On paper that one looks better:
http://www.minidsp.com/onlinestore/detail/17-plate-amplifiers/flypage/72-pwr-dsp3?sef=hcfp

- same price
- from the minidsp team
- network capabilities (sound+control)
- more power (and more logical power distribution between channel fro most applications)

Dualbios
03-14-2012, 03:03 AM
thank you very much mate, i didnt know minidsp made them only knew about the processing kits they did.if i want to make matching rears but only 2 way what would u guys run?

Dualbios
03-14-2012, 03:13 AM
how will these sound would i be better off with power amps or will plate amps like this do fine


On paper that one looks better:
http://www.minidsp.com/onlinestore/detail/17-plate-amplifiers/flypage/72-pwr-dsp3?sef=hcfp

- same price
- from the minidsp team
- network capabilities (sound+control)
- more power (and more logical power distribution between channel fro most applications)