Cabaret 4691

[GFitzhug]

I have a pair of Cabaret Seris 4691's powered by a Crown XLS 1500 with a Behringer 1622USB mixer. I was wondering if I can hook up a pair of JRX118S sub cabinets to this setup, and if so how to go about it? I am a rookie to these setups and use this to practice my drums to, hence the need for volume, but I am not getting enough bass from the 4691"s.Any advice from the audiophiles on this site would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!:D

[GFitzhug]

bump!:bouncy:

[hjames]

bump!:bouncy:

Well, its only been 8 hours since your first post, and it is a Holiday weekend - some of the pros maybe involved in setups for events over the weekend or the 4th - and maybe a little busy.

I'm not a sound pro - but I have run pro gear in my home system ... biamped with JBL/UREI gear at the time.

Anyway, I looked it up - the JRX118S is a passive subwoofer - with no amp of its own -
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=89&MId=3
Recommended Power: 350 W to 700 W into 4 ohms

Cabaret Series 4691
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/cabaret_series2.pdf
recommended Power 200w - 400w

So, the basic idea is to split off the bass-only to feed your sub - either by using a passive crossover
that goes after the Crown amp and can take that much power to split it to the extra speaker,
or by using an active crossover like the Ashley XR1001 (or whatever the part # is for a similar Behringer piece)
on your mixer output to split off your low bass from your "higher" freqs.

I suspect going active is the way to go. Of course, you'll need a second amp to power the subwoofer.

[GFitzhug]

Well, its only been 8 hours since your first post, and it is a Holiday weekend - some of the pros maybe involved in setups for events over the weekend or the 4th - and maybe a little busy.

I'm not a sound pro - but I have run pro gear in my home system ... biamped with JBL/UREI gear at the time.

Anyway, I looked it up - the JRX118S is a passive subwoofer - with no amp of its own -
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/general/Product.aspx?PId=89&MId=3
Recommended Power: 350 W to 700 W into 4 ohms

Cabaret Series 4691
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/obsolete/cabaret_series2.pdf
recommended Power 200w - 400w

So, the basic idea is to split off the bass-only to feed your sub - either by using a passive crossover
that goes after the Crown amp and can take that much power to split it to the extra speaker,
or by using an active crossover like the Ashley XR1001 (or whatever the part # is for a similar Behringer piece)
on your mixer output to split off your low bass from your "higher" freqs.

I suspect going active is the way to go. Of course, you'll need a second amp to power the subwoofer.
Can I just hook up a pair of powered subs?

[hjames]

Can I just hook up a pair of powered subs?

Probably can - but you asked about the JBL JRX118S and when I looked it up I saw it wasn't self-powered.

Powered subs vary - I am NOT a pro gear person, so I can't talk about specific pro gear.

Somehow you need to split off the low low bass and feed it only to the sub.

[mikebake]

Your board appears to have sub outs on it, so just buy the powered subs and plug em in, or buy the passives and the amp. Read your owners manual for the board for specifics on the sub outs.

[Baron030]

Hi
If I am reading you’re posting right, you have a pair of Cabaret Series 4691, and pair of JRX118 subs, and a Crown XLS 1500 amplifier.

Since you have a Crown XLS 1500 amplifier, why not start by pulling out the user’s manual. You have signal processors built right into it. Just set it up in crossover mode.
While this would be a very basic mono system it sure would play very loud and you could always at some later point add a second Crown XLS 1500 amp and then go stereo.

I would assume that the 4691s would start to roll off below 100Hz, so start by setting the crossover point somewhere between 79 and 105 Hz. And since the 4691s do not handle as much power as the JRX118 subs, I would say start with 105Hz as that would take some of the load off of the 4691s. But, if you find that deep bass notes are modulating and distorting the vocals. Then you can always adjust the crossover point a little lower then 105Hz.

Baron030:)

51862

[GFitzhug]

Thanks! I have not bought the subs yet, so can I set the filters( high or low?) to maximize my bass on just the 4691'S? I do want to play it in stereo mode for those late 60's albums with good effects!

[Baron030]

The 4691 Cabaret series speakers are a full range 2 way system. By adding subwoofers you are going to a bi-amplified 3 way system. So, the 15” E140 drivers now take on the roll of mid-bass/mid-range drivers. And all the really low bass notes are handled by the 18” drivers. The advantage of adding sub-woofers is not just improved efficiency. But, you are also reducing modulation distortion. So, in any case you will need to set up an active crossover network. You might be able set high pass filters on both channels of the crown and use a powered subwoofer that is equipped with a low pass filter. Now, I don’t know anything about the Behringer 1622USB mixer, so I don’t know if that will work as a crossover or not. Alternatively, you might need to look into buying a real active crossover network and the Ashly XR1001 would be a good choice.
Baron030:)

[GFitzhug]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! Any further glitches and I will be begging for help again! I'll keep you posted!:D

[GFitzhug]

The 4691 cabinets have a "low frequency external speaker out" 1/4" TRS jack. Could I just run a cable to the jrx118's, and if so, would it be acceptable as far as ohmage is concerned?

[GFitzhug]

the 4691 cabinets have a "low frequency external speaker out" 1/4" trs jack. Could i just run a cable to the jrx118's, and if so, would it be acceptable as far as ohmage is concerned?

bump?

[Lee in Montreal]

The 4691 cabinets have a "low frequency external speaker out" 1/4" TRS jack. Could I just run a cable to the jrx118's, and if so, would it be acceptable as far as ohmage is concerned?

Have you tried it yet?

[GFitzhug]

Have you tried it yet?
I have not received the subs yet, I was just trying to line everything up.

[Eaulive]

The 4691 cabinets have a "low frequency external speaker out" 1/4" TRS jack. Could I just run a cable to the jrx118's, and if so, would it be acceptable as far as ohmage is concerned?

I doubt it's an output. Are you sure it's not a bi-amp LF input ?

[Baron030]

Hi

The input and the output jacks are wired together in parallel. So, you would be sending a full frequency range signal though to the JRX118s. Assuming the JRX118 has a 4 ohm driver and the 4691 has a 8 ohm impedance, then the combined load is 2.8 ohms. Since the crown can handle loads as low as 2 ohms, wiring the two speaker together would work. But, it is not going to sound as good as a bi-amplified setup with an electronic crossover network. The JRX118 is not designed for high frequencies.

Link to the 4691 service manual:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4691B.pdf

Baron030:)

[Lee in Montreal]

As was mentionned, use the Crown on one channel for the 4691 cabinets, and the other channel for the subs. Or buy another amp. Those have integrated digital crossovers anyway.

[GFitzhug]

Hi

The input and the output jacks are wired together in parallel. So, you would be sending a full frequency range signal though to the JRX118s. Assuming the JRX118 has a 4 ohm driver and the 4691 has a 8 ohm impedance, then the combined load is 2.8 ohms. Since the crown can handle loads as low as 2 ohms, wiring the two speaker together would work. But, it is not going to sound as good as a bi-amplified setup with an electronic crossover network. The JRX118 is not designed for high frequencies.

Link to the 4691 service manual:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/Cabaret%20Series/4691B.pdf

Baron030:)
Thanks guys! As stated , I am new to these PA type hookups. If I use two Crown XLS 1500's, one for the 4691's and one for the 118s', do I loop the two amps together via the 1/4" TRS jacks on the back to bi-amp them and use the HPF on the 4691's and the LPF on the 118s' set to what freq.? Thanks to all for your inputs.P.S. I received the subs and hooked them up via the 1/4" TRS and the bass was more noticable, but not what I expected. Looks like your explanation works!!! Thanks again! I will let you know when I get the other 1500 and hook it up.The setup is coming closer to "live" stereo sound ,more every day!

[Lee in Montreal]

With two amps, you are going in the right direction. :D

[Mike Caldwell]

Thanks! I have not bought the subs yet, so can I set the filters( high or low?) to maximize my bass on just the 4691'S? I do want to play it in stereo mode for those late 60's albums with good effects!

If your playing albums "round black vinyl" you'll want to have a high pass filter in the signal path some where around 35hz give or take. That will tighten up the low end sound and save power from not amplifying sub low frequency rumble as well as possibly saving your sub woofers! Actually a high pass filter is a good idea regardless of your program input source.

[Baron030]

I received the subs and hooked them up via the 1/4" TRS and the bass was more noticable, but not what I expected

Hi
It still sounds like your running 118s as full range speakers. And while they will add some depth to the bass, you are not getting the optimal sound. Pick up a second Crown XLS 1500 amp and I would recommend following Crown XLS 1500's owners manual and set up each amp in the mono bi-amp crossover mode. So, one whole amp is feeding the left channel and other feeding the right channel. This will give you the simplest and most reliable wiring set up.

Baron030:)
51920

[GFitzhug]

Hi
It still sounds like your running 118s as full range speakers. And while they will add some depth to the bass, you are not getting the optimal sound. Pick up a second Crown XLS 1500 amp and I would recommend following Crown XLS 1500's owners manual and set up each amp in the mono bi-amp crossover mode. So, one whole amp is feeding the left channel and other feeding the right channel. This will give you the simplest and most reliable wiring set up.

Baron030:)
51920
Won't that have me srictly in mono mode, I want to run in stereo?

[Lee in Montreal]

Won't that have me srictly in mono mode, I want to run in stereo?

Nop

[Eaulive]

Won't that have me srictly in mono mode, I want to run in stereo?
You will still run stereo, but there's nothing wrong with running mono subs.

[Lee in Montreal]

You will still run stereo, but there's nothing wrong with running mono subs.

Correct, subs should be ran in mono for best dynamic. Most likely, crossed over at 50 to 80Hz, and there's not much stereo signal down there. ;)

[Baron030]

Hi
What I mean to say is set the the two amps up in crossover mode.
Baron030:)

51921

[Eaulive]

Correct, subs should be ran in mono for best dynamic. Most likely, crossed over at 50 to 80Hz, and there's not much stereo signal down there. ;)

Even if there is it's harder to locate.

[GFitzhug]

Thanks for all the knowledge fella's! You all have been very kind to a newbie!!!!

[Baron030]

Correct, subs should be run in mono for best dynamic. Most likely, crossed over at 50 to 80Hz, and there's not much stereo signal down there.
Hi
I am not trying to start an argument here. And there is not doubt that running the subs in mono would be more efficient. But, I suspect that in this case a higher crossover point would be better. In looking at published response specs on the JBL 4691b, I suspect that the E140 does roll off a lot below 100 Hz. The 4691 response is rated 40Hz – 20KHz (-10db). It is the (-10db) part of the specs that suggests the big roll-off. And JBL recommends an 80 to 100Hz crossover point on the 118s and the 55Hz- 300Hz (+- 3db) response spec does suggest that the crossover point could go even higher. But, that would risk pushing some of the vocals into the sub-woofers, which is not a good thing.

The following are the general vocal ranges associated with each voice type using scientific pitch notation where middle C=C4. Some singers within these voice types may be able to sing somewhat higher or lower:

Soprano: C4 – C6 (261Hz – 1046Hz)
Mezzo-soprano: A3 – A5 (220Hz – 880Hz)
Contralto: F3 – F5 (174Hz – 698Hz)
Tenor: C3 – C5 (130Hz – 523Hz)
Baritone: F2 – F4 (92Hz- 311Hz)
Bass: E2 – E4 (82Hz – 329Hz)

In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 80 Hz to 1100 Hz (that is, E2 to C6) for normal male and female voices together.

As you can see there is a musical reason why you don’t set the crossover point too high. Since, I suspect that you are not going to play a lot of Berry White records. I would suggest setting the crown’s crossover pointing at 105Hz and do some listening tests. But, if Berry White is big on your play list, then you better start in the 59Hz to 74Hz range.

Baron030:)

[Lee in Montreal]

My reason for suggesting 80Hz as a crossover point is that with an 18db filter, there will be still be traces until the next upper octave, crossing over well into the 4691 range. Of course, if a 24+db filter is used, then the sub could be crossed higher. :bouncy:

[GFitzhug]

As a final rundown: Bi-amp with 2 XLS1500's set to mono bypass as illustrated by Baron?

[Lee in Montreal]

As a final rundown: Bi-amp with 2 XLS1500's set to mono bypass as illustrated by Baron?

If you run TWO amps, no need for MONO.

[GFitzhug]

If you run TWO amps, no need for MONO.
So just set the 1500's to stereo bypass?

[Baron030]

No, Not Stereo Bypass Mode!
No, Not Bridge-Mono Mode!

I suggested setting each amp in Crossover Mode.
One xls 1500 is the left channel and the other xls 1500 is the right channel.

The Left channel xls 1500 amp has its channel 1 set with a lowpass filter and it
feeds the left 118 and its channel 2 is set with a highpass filter and it feeds the left 4691.

And the right channel xls 1500 amp has its channel 1 set with a lowpass filter and it feeds the right 118 and its channel 2 is set with a highpass filter and it feeds the right 4691.

Baron030:)

[Eaulive]

No, Not Stereo Bypass Mode!
No, Not Bridge-Mono Mode!

I suggested setting each amp in Crossover Mode.
One xls 1500 is the left channel and the other xls 1500 is the right channel.

The Left channel xls 1500 amp has its channel 1 set with a lowpass filter and it
feeds the left 118 and its channel 2 is set with a highpass filter and it feeds the left 4691.

And the right channel xls 1500 amp has its channel 1 set with a lowpass filter and it feeds the right 118 and its channel 2 is set with a highpass filter and it feeds the right 4691.

Baron030:)


In short, and at the expense of being rude, RTFM ;)


Crossover Mode
When using the “Crossover Mode”, the amplifi er is confi gured to use a LowPass
Filter on Channel 1 and a HighPass Filter on Channel 2.
Before you get started ensure that you:
1. Connect signal source to Channel 1 only using either the XLR, ¼ Inch, or
RCA connectors.
2. Connect a speaker to each channel output using Speakon®, Banana Plugs,
or bare wire.
Follow these quick steps to confi gure the amplifi er for “Crossover Mode”:
1. Hold the “Mode/Menu” button down for 3 sec until the LCD screen displays
“Amp Mode <More>”.
2. Press the “Mode/Menu” button to begin confi guring the Amp Mode.
3. Press the “Next” button until the LCD screen displays “Input Y”. Now press the “Mode/Menu” button to confi rm.
4. Now press the “Next” button until the LCD screen displays “XOVER” and press the “Mode/Menu” button to confi rm.
5. Now use the “Previous” or “Next” button to select your desired crossover point.
6. Once you have selected your crossover point, press the “Mode/Menu” button to confi rm your selection. The LCD screen should now read “Input Y XOVER”.

[GFitzhug]

In short, and at the expense of being rude, RTFM ;)
LMFAO! I think I can guess what RTFM means!!! Thanks!:)

[GFitzhug]

I settled on 105Hz on the crossover. To my old rock and roll ears, this sounds like "live" music at 100plus DB! Thanks for all of you guys input and infinite patience with a brick thick drummer with no knowledge of electronics!!!:applaud::applaud: